I thought it was here on SD I saw someone mention that early on, the Rosary was prayed with the Aves only consisting of the words ....
"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and
blessed is the fruit if thy womb"
Seems it was a thread where someone mentioned Bugnini wanted to revert to this form, omitting the
" Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"
Anyhow, does anyone recognize the thread I've described or who stated the early Rosary only used the first half of the Ave Maria ?
I searched online and I can't find an answer to whether or not the claim is true.
Can anyone recommend a good online "history of the Rosary " ?
tia
Hmm, I just realized I should be searching "history of the Ave Maria".
Yes, the claim is true. The Ave Maria originally only had the first half. And I don't think it included the name "Jesus" either.
Source - http://dhspriory.org/thomas/AveMaria.htm (That's Thomas Aquinas's commentary on the Ave Maria and he only comments on the first half because the second half didn't exist back then. The translator or editor mentions this: "Note: The Hail Mary or Angelical Salutation or Ave Maria in the time of St. Thomas consisted only of the present first part of the prayer. The second part—"Holy Mary, Mother of God," etc.—was added by the Church later.")
edit - Oh, as for the claim about Bugnini wanting to revert it... I have no idea if that's true.
Thanks Daniel. I did find some similar sources after I posted the OP.
When praying the Rosary privately, I've been using only the first part and it's made it easier to stay focused on the Mystery I'm on. I do add the "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" on the last Ave of the 5th decade of whatever Mysteries I'm on.
So going by the dates I've now seen, it seems the first forms of the Rosary did indeed use only the first part.
Thanks again for the link. Got it bookmarked.
Try reading the secret of the rosary by st louis De Montfort
Didn't Archbishop Bugnini or someone want the Church to revert to the form of the Ave without the second half?
To slightly divert.... wasn't the phrase "world without end" in the Glory Be added later as well? I never understood that phrase, and always thought it awkward; its not included in the Office.
Quote from: drummerboy on August 03, 2014, 08:23:06 PM
To slightly divert.... wasn't the phrase "world without end" in the Glory Be added later as well? I never understood that phrase, and always thought it awkward; its not included in the Office.
You mean in the prayer itself or in the English translation? The "world without end" in the English translation is an idiom (I think). I had no idea what it meant until I learned the prayer in Latin which makes more sense (in English it sounds like it's saying that the world isn't going to end, but that's not what it means at all...)
yes, the English translation. The latin is In Saecula Saecolorum, right?
Quote from: drummerboy on August 03, 2014, 08:40:52 PM
yes, the English translation. The latin is In Saecula Saecolorum, right?
Yes, it is.
Quote from: Chestertonian on August 03, 2014, 05:29:15 PM
Try reading the secret of the rosary by st louis De Montfort
I do have a copy of that title. It's on several sites as well.
Shin has a wonderful collection of Saints Works online ....
http://saintsbooks.net/BooksList.html
Quote from: Wicked Papist on August 03, 2014, 06:43:03 PM
Didn't Archbishop Bugnini or someone want the Church to revert to the form of the Ave without the second half?
I think I read that in a thread here on SD, but I can't recall the title or subject of the thread. Could have been a thread on the canonization of JPII.
Quote from: Wicked Papist on August 03, 2014, 06:43:03 PM
Didn't Archbishop Bugnini or someone want the Church to revert to the form of the Ave without the second half?
Ok, here it is.
the thread .... http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=1776.msg28290#msg28290
the article ..... http://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2013/03/25/anibale-bugnini-prime-architect-of-the-novus-ordo-also-wanted-to-wreck-the-rosary/
The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
"The official recognition of the Ave Maria in its complete form, though foreshadowed in the words of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, as quoted at the beginning of this article, was finally given in the Roman Breviary of 1568."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm
Stripping the prayer officially back to its first part "to go back to antiquity (or the Bible)" sounds unwise to me. It's a part of the "change, change, and more change" thinking of modernists.
For private use, of course it is not sinful to use only part of the prayer. But it doesn't sound very traditionalist to me. What Hail Mary was used by the 3 shepherd children at Fatima?
Quote from: drummerboy on August 03, 2014, 08:23:06 PM
To slightly divert.... wasn't the phrase "world without end" in the Glory Be added later as well? I never understood that phrase, and always thought it awkward; its not included in the Office.
The original prayer in Latin is:
QuoteGloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto,
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
Which properly translated, reads as:
QuoteGlory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning, both now, and always, and to ages of ages. Amen.
Henry VIII screwed around with the translation, and in his infinite wisdom came up with the phrase "world without end".
Quote from: Non Nobis on August 03, 2014, 11:38:40 PM
The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
"The official recognition of the Ave Maria in its complete form, though foreshadowed in the words of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, as quoted at the beginning of this article, was finally given in the Roman Breviary of 1568."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm
Stripping the prayer officially back to its first part "to go back to antiquity (or the Bible)" sounds unwise to me. It's a part of the "change, change, and more change" thinking of modernists.
For private use, of course it is not sinful to use only part of the prayer. But it doesn't sound very traditionalist to me. What Hail Mary was used by the 3 shepherd children at Fatima?
I'm not advocating Bugnini's ideas here, but it seems that during the time St Dominic supposedly received the Rosary from Our Lady, only the first part was used.
As far as "traditionalist", I'm just trying to be orthodox. 8)
See The Rosary: Its History and Meaning (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=6711) by Willam & Kaiser (1952).
Quote from: Non Nobis on August 03, 2014, 11:38:40 PM
The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
"The official recognition of the Ave Maria in its complete form, though foreshadowed in the words of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, as quoted at the beginning of this article, was finally given in the Roman Breviary of 1568."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm
Stripping the prayer officially back to its first part "to go back to antiquity (or the Bible)" sounds unwise to me. It's a part of the "change, change, and more change" thinking of modernists.
For private use, of course it is not sinful to use only part of the prayer. But it doesn't sound very traditionalist to me. What Hail Mary was used by the 3 shepherd children at Fatima?
Yeah from that same Catholic Encyclopedia article it also says "Finally, the petition "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen." is stated by the official "Catechism of the Council of Trent" to have been framed by the Church itself."
So the 3 shepherd children at Fatima must have used the same Hail Mary that we use now, but possibly in Portuguese or Latin.