Beware of independent "priests" that are unable/unwilling to provide credentials

[GiftOfGod]

I recently found out that a "priest" who puts on a "TLM" in San Francisco might not have any priestly credentials. He refuses to provide basic information about his ordination. Unfortunately I have been to his "Masses".

I have also communicated with trads in Orange County, California who say that there are multiple independents down there that LARPers.

Scary stuff when you consider that people are getting invalid Sacraments.

[Elizabeth.2]

That is scary.  How easily we can be fooled. 

[Prayerful]

Priests who are not priests, LARPers who endanger souls, or those who can no longer present as priests, say priests who were defrocked with good reason (say moral depravity towards the young) operating as independent priests has been an issue since the start of this present post V2 horror show. The latter would be a more recent thing, for one very good thing of Benedict was a procedure to remove perv priests, something Francis has repeatedly interfered with, like Inzoli who Francis restored on the petition of the sodomite Coccopalmiero.

[aquinas138]

"Wandering priests" have been a problem for most of church history. The early ecumenical councils stipulate that men presenting themselves as priests are not to be permitted to celebrate without letters commendatory from their own bishop and the permission of the local bishop. In the Roman Church, this takes the form of the "celebret," a letter which establishes the priest's ordination and declares the priest's freedom from censure. All the ancient churches have something similar.

Any priest who will not or cannot provide credentials should not only be treated with suspicion—he should be regarded as not actually a priest.

[clau clau]

How does a priest provide credentials?  Is that like a driving license of something?

edit: sorry: did not read the above properly.  It seems a Celebret is the answer.

[Ragnarok]

How does a priest provide credentials?  Is that like a driving license of something?

edit: sorry: did not read the above properly.  It seems a Celebret is the answer.

Being under the authority of a Bishop of the Church, typically with a proper seminary education.

[Elizabeth.2]

Priests who are not priests, LARPers who endanger souls, or those who can no longer present as priests, say priests who were defrocked with good reason (say moral depravity towards the young) operating as independent priests has been an issue since the start of this present post V2 horror show. The latter would be a more recent thing, for one very good thing of Benedict was a procedure to remove perv priests, something Francis has repeatedly interfered with, like Inzoli who Francis restored on the petition of the sodomite Coccopalmiero.

B16 got rid of at least 300 perverts. 

[GiftOfGod]

How does a priest provide credentials?  Is that like a driving license of something?

By providing information about who ordained him (doubtful if ordained by a bishop who was consecrated used the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration or is part of a schismatic line such as Duarte Costa or Old Catholic), where he was ordained, when he was ordained, and, if after 1967, how he was ordained (New Rite or not).

This is vital to know, otherwise confessions and other Sacraments might be invalid.

[Prayerful]

How does a priest provide credentials?  Is that like a driving license of something?

By providing information about who ordained him (doubtful if ordained by a bishop who was consecrated used the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration or is part of a schismatic line such as Duarte Costa or Old Catholic), where he was ordained, when he was ordained, and, if after 1967, how he was ordained (New Rite or not).

This is vital to know, otherwise confessions and other Sacraments might be invalid.

Why does you Tribunal assert that Old Catholic and Duarte Costa lines are doubtful? Some now are doubtful due to pretended ordination of women in the Utrecht Union, but that's a matter of research. The Church of England took to using some Old Catholic co-consecrators from maybe the 1870s, so these schismatics were aiding schismatics and heretics, yet that does not necessarily prove their orders are ropey. Schism does not necessarily vitiate orders The SSPX tends to accept the Pauline ordinal, although they are said to conditionally ordain discreetly at times.

The SSPV reject the Thuc line trads like CMRI and other Thuc line trads respond with questions over an SSPV consecration.

What I suggest is to take what the SSPX say with respect, as there is no certainty among independent or sede priests. Sedes who deny traditionally ordained bishops who used the sufficient Pauline Rite of ordination (say 70s to recently) make an assertion that goes against what Pius XII said makes a priest (there were differing opinions on the form, but Pius XII settled it), the lack of 'ut' is not sufficient for doubt, and the other things are secondary.

[mikemac]

A sedevacantist "priest" should be considered as an independent "priest", shouldn't they.  They wouldn't be able to get a Celebret from the local bishop.

[Prayerful]

A sedevacantist "priest" should be considered as an independent "priest", shouldn't they.  They wouldn't be able to get a Celebret from the local bishop.

Obviously, but the idea is I guess validity combined with supplied jurisdiction given the present emergency. Most sedes are SSPX connected  in some way or the other, and even when hostile, they use this basic idea. Celebret can be used in a very unfair way, some are now very time limited, as a way of keeping a priest on a short leash. It should not be the be all and end all. Basically, do research, and if the priest (outside the SSPX or diocesan context) cannot confirm his orders, run, I guess.

[Michael Wilson]

a sede priest should be able to tell you who ordained him.
The problem with many Schismatic orders such as Old Catholics is that there is no control over who gets consecrated; therefore men without the proper training performing sacramental rites, render them doubtful. That goes also for the Duarte Costa Line; and the Anglicans. Prima facia evidence is that the Anglican Orders are invalid unless there is proof to the Contrary; since Pope Leo XIII' "Apostolicae Curae". The N.O. Rite of Consecration of Bishops was radically altered in the 1960's and it uses a form that resembles the form for the enthronement of an Archbishop in the Maronite Rite. This form was not meant to be used to Consecrate bishops. Therefore, if one has doubts about the new Canonizations, one has even more reason to doubt the new rite of Orders. 

[GiftOfGod]

A sedevacantist "priest" should be considered as an independent "priest", shouldn't they.  They wouldn't be able to get a Celebret from the local bishop.

Do any SSPX priests have a celebret?
What about the sede priests in the SSPX?

[TradGranny]

Basically, do research, and if the priest (outside the SSPX or diocesan context) cannot confirm his orders, run, I guess.

At Our Lady Help of Christians in Orange County, CA, we have had three recent men who cannot confirm their orders and will not say when, where, by whom and in which rite they were ordained. Our pastor, Father Perez, is a trusting soul who doesn't want to insult a person who claims to be a priest by asking for actual proof.

The first was Father Colletti, an admitted pedophile who had been laicized prior to arriving and presenting himself as a priest in good standing. Even after he was outed by a letter from the local bishop, Father Perez covered up for him, saying "Father Colletti was called back to his diocese."

The second was a man calling himself Father Michael Weist who was found to have a pagan altar in his home. A photo of him as a layman surfaced, Mr. Michael Weist, proprietor of an antique store. The date of the photo was 6 months prior to his arrival as a priest. He has made thinly veiled threats to anyone who asks about his ordination.

The third was a high school boy who, instead of finishing high school, went to the Father Pfeiffer fake seminary and two years later was saying Mass at the chapel.

There is a thread over at Cath Info on all of this. Very sad.

[GiftOfGod]

Wow, granny. That might be the place the trads were talking about. After three times the place ought to be shut down. Who even patronizes a place like that?

I didn't know that Pfeiffer had a "seminary".