The Church Courtyard > Traditional Catholic Discussion

Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics

(1/10) > >>

Mattchew83:
“And the ignorance of those things of salvation, the knowledge of which men did not care to have is without doubt, a sin for them; but for those who were not able to acquire such knowledge, the want of it is a punishment for their sins,” says St. Augustine; hence both are justly condemned, and neither the one nor the other has a just excuse for being lost.” (Epist. ad Sixtum, Edit. Maur. 194, cap. vi., n. 27.)

 “Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in his infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.” (St. Thomas Aquinas.)

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: Objection- “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith.  St. Thomas replies- It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance.  In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him…"

St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. II, 28, Q. 1, A. 4, ad 4: “If a man born among barbarian nations, does what he can, God Himself will show him what is necessary for salvation, either by inspiration or sending a teacher to him."


From what St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine say, we must convert to Catholicism before we die. For those who fall into the invincibly ignorant category...if a person is of good will and they imply to God that they would convert to Catholicism....then God will furnish them the means whether it be by sending an angel or a preacher or by internal inspiration. If neither of these occur, and the person dies invincibly ignorant, then there is no salvation for them. It still holds that they must convert to Catholicism before they die. Thus "Outside the Church there is no salvation".

But for those who have heard of the Catholic Church but fail to enter into it (or at least start taking steps to enter into it) before they die...

Why would an invincibly ignorant person/unbaptized infant have no chance for salvation (per St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas) yet someone who has heard of the Catholic Church and fails to enter into it in favor of a false religion, atheism, agnosticism etc. have a chance for salvation? I would say that reason and logic should conclude that those who fall into the later category also do not have a chance for salvation especially since they commit a sin by failing to enter into the Church. If you think they do, please show me evidence of any Church Father/Saint and/or ecumenical council who taught this prior to Vatican II. If you are thinking of referring to Pope Pius IX...it is true that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved...but evidence shows that by Vatican I he had reformed this opinion in favor of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. If you are thinking of referring to Pope Pius X when he taught that Invincibly Ignorant people could receive an implicit Baptism of Desire...shouldn't you consider that his credibility is weaken by the fact that, by his time and even before him, the Church had been overrun by heretics (according to marian apparitions and canonized people in the 19th century)...and that he possibly being one of them or deceived by them into believing such a thing. Furthermore, that his canonization should be questioned for the same reason.

If I am right about there being no such thing as implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics...then the SSPX and most Sedevacantists are heretics.

Stubborn:

--- Quote from: Mattchew83 on September 06, 2021, 07:52:24 PM --- If you are thinking of referring to Pope Pius IX...it is true that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved..

--- End quote ---

It is not true that Pope Pius IX ever taught "that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved." One must read and understand the sentence immediately before this one for proper context.

Whenever people think of the possibility of justification and salvation for the invincibly ignorant, they would do themselves a huge favor to *never* use the term "invincibly ignorant", rather, they should always replace that term with: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion," - these are the specific people the pope was speaking about. This is what the "struggling" is all about. Such a person is able to attain salvation so long as he continues seek the truth, live a moral life and cooperate with the grace leading him to the true faith.



Mattchew83:

--- Quote from: Stubborn on September 07, 2021, 05:57:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mattchew83 on September 06, 2021, 07:52:24 PM --- If you are thinking of referring to Pope Pius IX...it is true that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved..

--- End quote ---

It is not true that Pope Pius IX ever taught "that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved." One must read and understand the sentence immediately before this one for proper context.

Whenever people think of the possibility of justification and salvation for the invincibly ignorant, they would do themselves a huge favor to *never* use the term "invincibly ignorant", rather, they should always replace that term with: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion," - these are the specific people the pope was speaking about. This is what the "struggling" is all about. Such a person is able to attain salvation so long as he continues seek the truth, live a moral life and cooperate with the grace leading him to the true faith.

--- End quote ---


How does the following quote by Pope Pius IX not suggest invincible ignorance?

Pius IX. Singulari Quidem. AD 1856.

‘This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.

Stubborn:

--- Quote from: Mattchew83 on September 07, 2021, 08:57:02 AM ---How does the following quote by Pope Pius IX not suggest invincible ignorance?

Pius IX. Singulari Quidem. AD 1856.

‘This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.

--- End quote ---

I agree that it appears as you said, that he is contradicting himself - which can only mean that we are misunderstanding, therefore need to understand it in context of what the Church has always taught, as well as all PPIX's other teachings.

For me, the main point to remember is that if invincible ignorance is not punishable, neither is it meritorious, and Heaven must be merited - no one enters Heaven by default. As such, these words taken in their context, can only mean that God unfailingly inducts such ignorant yet well-disposed individuals into the Church through conversion and the reception of Baptism before they die. 

Mattchew83:

--- Quote from: Stubborn on September 07, 2021, 12:10:23 PM ---
--- Quote from: Mattchew83 on September 07, 2021, 08:57:02 AM ---How does the following quote by Pope Pius IX not suggest invincible ignorance?

Pius IX. Singulari Quidem. AD 1856.

‘This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.

--- End quote ---

I agree that it appears as you said, that he is contradicting himself - which can only mean that we are misunderstanding, therefore need to understand it in context of what the Church has always taught, as well as all PPIX's other teachings.

For me, the main point to remember is that if invincible ignorance is not punishable, neither is it meritorious, and Heaven must be merited - no one enters Heaven by default. As such, these words taken in their context, can only mean that God unfailingly inducts such ignorant yet well-disposed individuals into the Church through conversion and the reception of Baptism before they die.

--- End quote ---

I was reading a thread on Cath info, and it stated that he believed in invincible ignorance but later repented and conformed to Outside the Church there is no salvation. I cant find that thread again unfortunately. But I really hope you are right in your interpretation because, from what I am gathering, this was stated in the magisterium and is infallible. I certainly hope that we cannot find errors and contradictions in such documents.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
Go to full version