Author Topic: Fr. Hesse on Debates  (Read 707 times)

Offline christulsa

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3728
  • Thanked: 2169 times
  • Religion: Traditional Catholic
Fr. Hesse on Debates
« on: June 12, 2021, 06:20:40 PM »
Does Fr. Hesse really teach that it "should not be one of the objectives of a debate," to "win"?  Or to win even a small prize, as a secondary motive?  As a secondary objective.  That is, that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church?

Will engage this debate, but would like to see quotes to back this claim up.  To help clarify what is the Catholic Truth on the matter.
 

Offline andy

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 519
  • Thanked: 315 times
Re: Fr. Hesse on Debates
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2021, 01:16:24 AM »
I am on the record ("Re: A Debate Between James and Chris: On Distributive vs. Commutative Justice" reply 29) of saying "if someone is interested I offer to dig up a specific quote" , so I will do that as I vividly remember him complaining about looking for a win vs the Truth in debates.

There is about 40h of material https://archive.org/details/FatherHesse so it will take a while, probably in "The True Notion of the Hierarchy of Truths" or around it if I remember.
 

Offline christulsa

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3728
  • Thanked: 2169 times
  • Religion: Traditional Catholic
Re: Fr. Hesse on Debates
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2021, 03:29:37 AM »
I vividly remember him complaining about looking for a win vs the Truth in debates.

As phrased, this would be a non sequitor.  It is not in dispute if "The Win" is the main objective "vs The Truth," which would of course be proud to believe.  Or something in itself in opposition or contrary to seeking the Truth.

The claim was stated differently:

"Also, is the objective of a debate to win (a 6pack of beer)? As fr. Hesse says (and if someone is interested I offer to dig up a specific quote), that should not be an objective here. The only real benefit is that we learn the Truth. In other words, I do not care who wins or loses."

The debate you were referring to was already framed as being "primarily" about seeking the Truth, to edify, with a very secondary objective of winning a few bottles of beer.  You make the error of confusing "both/and" with "either/or."   It is possible to BOTH focus a debate on seeking the Truth, AND also have a secondary motive of winning that debate (and some beer).  It is in error to believe that in a theological or philosophical debate one EITHER only seeks the Truth, OR is just trying to win.

Knowing Fr. Hesse's talks well, and his love of wine while giving talks, I do not believe he ever made the specific claim as written.

Pax.

(I will not be able to post a response until next weekend on this, but am available for PM).
 

Offline andy

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 519
  • Thanked: 315 times
Re: Fr. Hesse on Debates
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2021, 07:24:37 PM »
As promised, I will find the exact quote. Let's take it from there. I could be that I misremember the meaning.

There is 40h of audio to walk through - I am in fact in the process of cataloguing/idexing all his talks - so it might take a while.

Hopefully, you will be still around LOL.
 

Offline andy

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 519
  • Thanked: 315 times
Re: Fr. Hesse on Debates
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2021, 09:10:41 PM »
I have finally found it. This is from
And a transcript (automatic CC from YT):
Quote

04:03 but uh you may rest assured that
04:06 whenever you
04:07 face me with a question that i do not
04:09 have the answer for i will not give an
04:11 answer i will not give you a substitute
04:12 for an
04:13 answer one of the things today that is
04:17 thoroughly misunderstood also among
04:19 traditionalists
04:21 is that to think that who has the better
04:24 argument
04:26 has the truth that's not true
04:29 that's what people may think about some
04:32 idiotic
04:32 tv discussions between presidential
04:35 candidates
04:37 they might think that the one
04:39 presidential candidate that has the
04:41 better arguments
04:42 and has better apparently the better
04:44 reasoning and the better preparation
04:46 must be the better man but that's not
04:48 true
04:49 because in public discussions very often
04:53 the purpose of the discussion is that i
04:56 am right
04:57 not to find out the truth the reason why
05:01 i can answer your question why should
05:04 people listen to me in the first place
05:05 is that i will always try to the best of
05:07 my knowledge
05:08 to reproduce doctrine
05:11 that is traditional with the church one
05:13 of the reasons why
05:15 i'm not in all too familiar and good
05:18 terms with the consumer church is
05:20 because they want they would want me
05:22 to call and after having stopped quoting
05:25 vatican
05:26 to call paul vi and john paul ii and
05:29 you're highly embarrassed when you came
05:31 up when you come up with quotations
05:33 that are uh from the council of trent
05:36 or pope fires to tense and that proves
05:40 them wrong
05:40 because they are not interested in the
05:42 truth most of the time they defend a
05:44 certain political purpose or they just
05:46 want to be right
05:47 and unfortunately among traditionalists
05:50 it's a widespread phenomenon that many
05:52 priests just want to be right
05:54 they want to be able to say see i was
05:56 right and you were wrong
05:58 i've never been interested if i was
06:00 right
06:01 i'm interested in what is the truth what
06:04 is correct what is right
06:07 and the reason why uh i would never say
06:11 you should listen to me but
06:13 the reason why there could be much worse
06:16 things you could do than listening to me
06:18 is because
06:19 at least i i try my very best
06:22 not to make up things i try to give
06:26 quotations as much as my memory permits
06:29 me to do so
06:31 the reason why i'm not sitting here with
06:33 a prepared manuscript that
06:35 will read to you is because it would be
06:37 useless latest on page two you will be
06:40 honestly asleep


 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne

Offline Elizabeth.2

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1069
  • Thanked: 1305 times
Re: Fr. Hesse on Debates
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2021, 09:24:17 PM »
 :grouphug:
Dear old soul.
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, Christe Eleison