Music woes update

[Jmartyr]

Our new priest is very big on getting men involved in the parish. The women took over because of the men shirking their duty, basically. I have to say I agree with him. We may be moving to an all male choir eventually.

[awkward customer]

Do we need lay people singing in church choirs?

It all sounds more trouble than it's worth.

[Severinus]

I believe in letting decision-makers enjoy their good decisions and suffer through their bad.  What I mean is, there's a real illness in parishes that brings forth "rescuers" -- i.e., volunteers past or present -- when the priest makes imprudent and/or inconsiderate, ungrateful, or "political" decisions - or "merely" egotistical ones, based not on prudence or cost but on personal whim.  This continues to happen in parishes I sing and have sung at.  What's important is for volunteers to withdraw their services if they honestly believe the decision is a bad one (or cannot/will not do well with that decision, such as in your case.)  Too often, volunteers, including accomplished chanters, cave and make themselves martyrs out of a sense of obligation.

Thanks Miriam, I was hoping you would comment. I couldn't say if this is truly a bad decision. It does seem to me that I was the obvious choice. After all, I am a man (tradition), sing well, and am passionate enough about it to get active and persistent and donate my time and talent. I think it was a bad decision, but may never know, as I'm shaking the dust from my feet and moving to the next place.

What is most abusive are the arbitrary/emotional decisions musically untrained and musically ignorant priests make with regard to sacred music and the musicians, hired or volunteer.  To change personnel -- or worse -- change the music from something appropriate to inappropriate in that setting -- is nothing less than an abuse of power.  I've spoken recently to fellow singers who have said that "in every parish" where they have sung, eventually one or more priests makes one or more arbitrary decisions which have reduced the quality of the music.

WQ aside, I don't think the music will shift to something inappropriate. I spoke to this young lady twice and we commiserated about what goes on in some other nearby parishes.

Separately, regarding directorship, I would not sing under a director who is less experienced than I am -- less trained in chant.  Why would I want to do that?  I expect my musical participation in any setting in which I perform to be stimulating for me, if not challenging.  If I'm "teaching" the director -- if only through the quality of my performance -- this is a problem for me.

Exactly, this is the essence of what I was saying in my first thread. I can't put up with it any more. I would rather not sing at all. For me these are tall words. Depending on how things go at the next (and last) parish, this may end up being my situation for a while. 

[Severinus]

Our new priest is very big on getting men involved in the parish. The women took over because of the men shirking their duty, basically. I have to say I agree with him.

I agree with this assessment in general, though it obviously isn't the case with me at this parish. I was active and the priest preferred a woman anyway.

[Severinus]

The progressives used "active participation" to usher in the NO.

They also used "charity" to usher in bleeding heart progressivism. Is charity therefore questionable?

Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people,
so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was
the case in ancient times.

I regard this as one of his most important instructions on sacred music. Those who have never been to a parish where the people confidently sing the Ordinary may not really understand. It is powerful and immensely edifying to hear.

[Miriam_M]

Do we need lay people singing in church choirs?

It all sounds more trouble than it's worth.

There are FAR more TLM's in the U.S. than there are available seminarians who can cantor them (solo or in group).  That's why lay musicians are needed.  The High Mass is considered the best way to celebrate the Latin Mass.

I don't know the situation in Europe.

[awkward customer]

Do we need lay people singing in church choirs?

It all sounds more trouble than it's worth.

There are FAR more TLM's in the U.S. than there are available seminarians who can cantor them (solo or in group).  That's why lay musicians are needed.  The High Mass is considered the best way to celebrate the Latin Mass.

I don't know the situation in Europe.

It's the same here in the UK, although the Latin Mass Society does have an annual Traditional High Mass at Westminster Cathedral's High Altar, sung by the cathedral choir. I can see why this would be considered the best way to celebrate the Traditional Mass.

But in the absence of sufficient numbers of traditional seminarians who can cantor at a High Mass, why recruit lay people who can never be as accomplished as the properly trained? 

Maybe encourage traditional seminaries to teach their seminarians how to chant? 

   

[awkward customer]

Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people,
so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was
the case in ancient times.

I regard this as one of his most important instructions on sacred music. Those who have never been to a parish where the people confidently sing the Ordinary may not really understand. It is powerful and immensely edifying to hear.

But I have always understood that in "ancient times", it was the priest and servers who chanted, not the lay people.

And I have been to parishes where the people condifently sing the Ordinary and didn't find it edifying in any way.

So I have a suggestion.  Why not lobby the Traditional seminaries and persuade them to teach their seminarians proper chant.  The seminarians could then do 'placements' in traditional parishes to help pass on the skills to servers etc.

Like everything else, I think this should be priest-led, not lay-led. 

[Miriam_M]

Do we need lay people singing in church choirs?

It all sounds more trouble than it's worth.

There are FAR more TLM's in the U.S. than there are available seminarians who can cantor them (solo or in group).  That's why lay musicians are needed.  The High Mass is considered the best way to celebrate the Latin Mass.

I don't know the situation in Europe.

It's the same here in the UK, although the Latin Mass Society does have an annual Traditional High Mass at Westminster Cathedral's High Altar, sung by the cathedral choir. I can see why this would be considered the best way to celebrate the Traditional Mass.

But in the absence of sufficient numbers of traditional seminarians who can cantor at a High Mass, why recruit lay people who can never be as accomplished as the properly trained? 

Maybe encourage traditional seminaries to teach their seminarians how to chant? 
   

Because several of us are as (or even more) properly trained.
and
Because trad priests really do hate having to substitute low Masses for High if the substitution is preventable.

[Severinus]

Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people,
so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was
the case in ancient times.

I regard this as one of his most important instructions on sacred music. Those who have never been to a parish where the people confidently sing the Ordinary may not really understand. It is powerful and immensely edifying to hear.

But I have always understood that in "ancient times", it was the priest and servers who chanted, not the lay people.

I'm no historian. I'm going to take the papal encyclical's word on this over yours.

And I have been to parishes where the people condifently sing the Ordinary and didn't find it edifying in any way.

I grew up with an elderly neighbor who couldn't stand to listen to regular people sing together, because his tastes were too elevated. He required professional performances and wasn't susceptible to the notion of raising a joyful noise. He was a nice man and a scholar, but this aspect of his personality was rather sad.

So I have a suggestion.  Why not lobby the Traditional seminaries and persuade them to teach their seminarians proper chant.  The seminarians could then do 'placements' in traditional parishes to help pass on the skills to servers etc.

Like everything else, I think this should be priest-led, not lay-led. 

It's a chaotic area atm and would benefit from focused attention from the traditional priestly societies. That's true. I don't see it happening, because it would pertain to an era of ecclesiastical strength and growth, which is not what we live in. It's also a suggestion that I have this basic difficulty with taking seriously, given my experience where (A) trained priests continually make subpar decisions for the music and (B) I'm better at chant than every traditional priest and seminarian I've ever heard sing.

I realize that may come across as proud. I am just trying to be honest with you about why your idea doesn't resonate with me. I make no bones acknowledging that in a better age I would be mediocre. In our sad reality I am relatively very good. I wish I could learn sacred music at the feet of skilled priests and seminarians, but in this reality usually the reverse would be more appropriate.

[Francisco Javier]

I suspect a significant portion of priests' hesitancy to move up from low masses to high masses is due to the choir and its attendant drama

[Miriam_M]

I suspect a significant portion of priests' hesitancy to move up from low masses to high masses is due to the choir and its attendant drama

I have never heard of any trad priest being "hesitant" to move from low Masses to High Masses due to "the choir and its attendant drama."  The most important aspect of the traditional liturgy, aside from a well-trained celebrant, is even a moderately-well sung set of Propers and Ordinary.  The priest does not care about any behind-the-scenes drama, even if the singers do care and do decide to absent themselves -- which has happened often in choirs I've been in, but ONLY in choirs with no direvtors.

A director is often key to (a) preserving the singers from burnout, and (b)limiting drama.  It's the unled choirs that dissolve into acrimony or competition that end up vanishing entirely. What has happened in my considerable experience with that is that the number of singers fades steadily, but especially the better singers. 

[Severinus]

It's a thin excuse, Francisco. A shepherd shouldn't be afraid of dealing with occasional interpersonal difficulties among his flock. He should have his eyes on goals and principles. That's not to say drama can be wantonly introduced, but it's not admirable for priests to make decisions on the basis of avoiding drama.

[awkward customer]

This reminds me, I noticed that the noisy babies and toddlers at Sunday mass all went silent when I was singing. That was the nicest compliment of all. 

It won't last.  As soon as they get used to your singing, the noise will start up again.

Trads must love noise.  It's the only possible explanation.

[The Curt Jester]

The only possible explanation that someone could disagree with YOU is that they like noise?