On Immodest Dress and Fashions - warnings of Our Lady of Fatima.

[Lynne]

I think if we say our Queen must personally appear each time She wishes to communicate a message, we unduly constrain Her. Both Fr. Kunkel and even Pope Pius XII consider that when Our Lady wishes to speak to us, She sometimes does so through the messengers only, without an explicit additional appariton. Thus Fr. Kunkel mentions the circumstances by which heaven's message about fashions was related, "Listen to what she revealed to little ten year old Jacinta of Fatima, while Jacinta lay dying in a hospital in Lisbon, Portugal in 1920: 'Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much. Those who serve God ought not to follow these fashions ..." I think we can safely accept that as the message intended by our Queen given through Her representative.

1. St. Montfort explains pious faith: "Everyone knows that there are three different kinds of faith by which we believe different kinds of stories. To stories from Holy Scripture we owe divine faith; to stories on non-religious subjects which are not against common sense and are written by trustworthy authors, we pay the tribute of human faith; and to stories about holy subjects which are told by good authors and are not in any way contrary to reason, to faith or to morals (even though they may sometimes deal with happenings which are above the ordinary), we pay the tribute of a pious faith.
I agree that we must be neither too credulous nor too critical, and that we should keep a happy medium in all things in order to find just where truth and virtue lie. But on the other hand, I know equally well that charity easily leads us to believe all that is not contrary to faith or morals: "Charity believes all things" (1 Cor. 13:7), in the same way as pride induces us to doubt even well authenticated stories on the plea that they are not to be found in Holy Scripture.
This is one of the devil's traps; heretics of the past who denied tradition have fallen into it, and over-critical people of today are falling into it too, without even realizing it. People of this kind refuse to believe what they do not understand or what is not to their liking, simply because of their own spirit of pride and independence."

2. At the same time, God was speaking through His Church on the same pressing issue as well. This is one objective standard the Church gave under Pope Pius XI about immodest dress on women. "'We recall that a dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat, which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows, and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knee. Furthermore, dresses of transparent material are improper. Let parents keep their daughters away from public gymnastic games and contests; but, if their daughters are compelled to attend such exhibitions, let them see to it that they are fully and modestly dressed. Let them never permit their daughters to don immodest garb.' The Sacred Congregation of the Council (by the mandate of Pope Pius XI), January 12, 1930 A.D.

And Cardinal Siri issued this directive on women becoming accustomed to wearing men's dress and the gender confusion it would assuredly cause in society. Today, more than ever, we can see that it has.
http://sspx.org/en/notification-about-women-wearing-male-clothing

The wearing of men's dress by women affects firstly the woman herself, by changing the feminine psychology proper to women; secondly it affects the woman as wife of her husband, by tending to vitiate relationships between the sexes; thirdly it affects the woman as mother of her children by harming her dignity in her children's eyes. Each of these points is to be carefully considered in turn:

A. Male dress changes the psychology of woman
In truth, the motive impelling women to wear men's dress is always that of imitating, nay, of competing with, the man who is considered stronger, less tied down, more independent. This motivation shows clearly that male dress is the visible aid to bringing about a mental attitude of being "like a man." Secondly, ever since men have been men, the clothing a person wears, demands, imposes and modifies that person's gestures, attitudes and behavior, such that from merely being worn outside, clothing comes to impose a particular frame of mind inside.

Then let us add that woman wearing man's dress always more or less indicates her reacting to her femininity as though it is inferiority when in fact it is only diversity. The perversion of her psychology is clear to be seen.

These reasons, summing up many more, are enough to warn us how wrongly women are made to think by the wearing of men's dress.

B. Male dress tends to vitiate relationships between women and men
In truth when relationships between the two sexes unfold with the coming of age, an instinct of mutual attraction is predominant. The essential basis of this attraction is a diversity between the two sexes which is made possible only by their complementing or completing one another. If then this "diversity" becomes less obvious because one of its major external signs is eliminated and because the normal psychological structure is weakened, what results is the alteration of a fundamental factor in the relationship.

The problem goes further still. Mutual attraction between the sexes is preceded both naturally, and in order of time, by that sense of shame which holds the rising instincts in check, imposes respect upon them, and tends to lift to a higher level of mutual esteem and healthy fear everything that those instincts would push onwards to uncontrolled acts. To change that clothing which by its diversity reveals and upholds nature's limits and defense-works, is to flatten out the distinctions and to help pull down the vital defense-works of the sense of shame.

It is at least to hinder that sense. And when the sense of shame is hindered from putting on the brakes, then relationships between man and women sink degradingly down to pure sensuality, devoid of all mutual respect or esteem.

Experience is there to tell us that when woman is de-feminized, then defenses are undermined and weakness increases.

C. Male dress harms the dignity of the mother in her children's eyes
All children have an instinct for the sense of dignity and decorum of their mother. Analysis of the first inner crisis of children when they awaken to life around them even before they enter upon adolescence, shows how much the sense of their mother counts. Children are as sensitive as can be on this point. Adults have usually left all that behind them and think no more on it. But we would do well to recall to mind the severe demands that children instinctively make of their own mother, and the deep and even terrible reactions roused in them by observation of their mother's misbehavior. Many lines of later life are here traced out—and not for good—in these early inner dramas of infancy and childhood.

The child may not know the definition of exposure, frivolity or infidelity, but he possesses an instinctive sixth sense to recognize them when they occur, to suffer from them, and be bitterly wounded by them in his soul.

III

Let us think seriously on the import of everything said so far, even if woman's appearing in man's dress does not immediately give rise to all the upset caused by grave immodesty.

The changing of feminine psychology does fundamental and, in the long run, irreparable damage to the family, to conjugal fidelity, to human affections and to human society. True, the effects of wearing unsuitable dress are not all to be seen within a short time. But one must think of what is being slowly and insidiously worn down, torn apart, perverted.

Is any satisfying reciprocity between husband and wife imaginable, if feminine psychology be changed? Or is any true education of children imaginable, which is so delicate in its procedure, so woven of imponderable factors in which the mother's intuition and instinct play the decisive part in those tender years? What will these women be able to give their children when they will so long have worn trousers that their self-esteem goes more by their competing with the men than by their functioning as women?

Why, we ask, ever since men have been men, or rather since they became civilized—why have men in all times and places been irresistibly borne to make a differentiated division between the functions of the two sexes? Do we not have here strict testimony to the recognition by all mankind of a truth and a law above man?

To sum up, wherever women wear men's dress, it is to be considered a factor in the long run tearing apart human order.

That's quite a link.

[MundaCorMeum]

I think immodesty and impurity are in the running for the biggest mortal sins this day and age.  One word: Snapchat.

Not in the know here.  What is snapchat? I have yet to figure that out.  I know what Instagram is; is it like that?

Almost like Instagram, but Snapchat enables photos to be shared with all kinds of crazy filters & is specially tailored for hippie youngsters, so they can puke rainbows & be dogs.

only worse...it's a photo platform that allows you to take a photo of yourself, send it to someone, and then it disappears after a short time frame (I don't use it, so I don't know how long...30 seconds, maybe??).  You can only imagine the crass photos young (more likely and sadly, people of all ages) "ladies" and "gentlemen" are sending to each other 

[mikemac]

I think immodesty and impurity are in the running for the biggest mortal sins this day and age.  One word: Snapchat.

Also, outside of small groups of Christians including Trads, it is just taken for granted that fornication is normal and healthy.  Outside of the before mentioned groups, the virginity rate at marriage (if they get married) is below 10% in my opinion.

However, I have a hard time believing this was the case in 1917.  This was before the roaring 20's.

Yeah I think it was in 1920 that Our Lady of Fatima told St. Jacinta Marto "Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much".  You know, as in the future.

[mikemac]

I'm not saying I don't believe in modesty in dress, I'm simply stating the fact that Our Lady of Fatima never mentioned it in her apparitions. She talked about many important things that are pretty much ignored, but modesty somehow became the central issue of Fatima. What do you think Our Lady cares about more, millions of people who die in unjust wars, or the length of a hemline?

The central issue of Fatima is the salvation of souls.  Besides Our Lady of Fatima requested a proper consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart which is suppose to bring about a period of peace for the world.

[mikemac]

1. St. Montfort explains pious faith: "Everyone knows that there are three different kinds of faith by which we believe different kinds of stories. To stories from Holy Scripture we owe divine faith; to stories on non-religious subjects which are not against common sense and are written by trustworthy authors, we pay the tribute of human faith; and to stories about holy subjects which are told by good authors and are not in any way contrary to reason, to faith or to morals (even though they may sometimes deal with happenings which are above the ordinary), we pay the tribute of a pious faith.

I very much like this.

"I salute your guardian angel."

St. Louis de Montfort often ended his letters with a salutation to the guardian angel of the person to whom he was writing.

[james03]

Yeah I think it was in 1920 that Our Lady of Fatima told St. Jacinta Marto "Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much".  You know, as in the future.

I was unaware of that.  That's a pretty amazing prophecy.

[awkwardcustomer]

When Jacinta fell ill and was moved to Lisbon to be treated at the Dona Estefania Hospital, she lodged at an orphanage under the care of Mother Maria Godinho, who wrote down Jacinta's revelations.

However.....

The testimony of Mother Godinho. At this stage in our account, we must open a brief critical parenthesis. On many, many occasions Mother Godinho spoke of the actions and gestures of little Jacinta. Very often, unfortunately, she was the only witness of these things. The prolixity and bewildering character of several of the statements she attributes to the seer have justly evoked some scepticism on the part of well informed critics. Father Alonso declared in 1971: "Mother Godinho attributed so many things to Jacinta that it is impossible that the child could really have said all that!"??

http://crc-internet.org/our-doctrine/catholic-counter-reformation/the-whole-truth-about-fatima-volume-2/1-4-jacinta-i-want-to-suffer-to-save-souls-from-hell/

[Larry]

Yeah I think it was in 1920 that Our Lady of Fatima told St. Jacinta Marto "Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much".  You know, as in the future.

I was unaware of that.  That's a pretty amazing prophecy.

Words that may have been put into Jacinta's mouth.

[Larry]

When Jacinta fell ill and was moved to Lisbon to be treated at the Dona Estefania Hospital, she lodged at an orphanage under the care of Mother Maria Godinho, who wrote down Jacinta's revelations.

However.....

The testimony of Mother Godinho. At this stage in our account, we must open a brief critical parenthesis. On many, many occasions Mother Godinho spoke of the actions and gestures of little Jacinta. Very often, unfortunately, she was the only witness of these things. The prolixity and bewildering character of several of the statements she attributes to the seer have justly evoked some scepticism on the part of well informed critics. Father Alonso declared in 1971: "Mother Godinho attributed so many things to Jacinta that it is impossible that the child could really have said all that!"??

http://crc-internet.org/our-doctrine/catholic-counter-reformation/the-whole-truth-about-fatima-volume-2/1-4-jacinta-i-want-to-suffer-to-save-souls-from-hell/

Exactly.  If Fr. Alonso and Frere Michel were skeptical, we all should be

[mikemac]

http://crc-internet.org/our-doctrine/catholic-counter-reformation/the-whole-truth-about-fatima-volume-2/1-4-jacinta-i-want-to-suffer-to-save-souls-from-hell/

This is a good web site.  I read that page before but it was worth reading it again.  Thanks for posting it.  What a sweet little Saint.

Saint Jacinta Marto pray for us. 

[Elizabeth]

Fr. Francois Schouppe in his excellent book The Dogma of Hell includes the following revelation about a soul who was damned for the mortal sin of immodesty:

We read also in Father Nieremberg that a noble lady, who was exceedingly pious, asked God to make known to her what displeased His Divine Majesty most in persons of her sex. The Lord vouchsafed in a miraculous manner to hear her. He opened under her eyes the Eternal Abyss. There she saw a woman a prey to cruel torments and in her recognized one of her friends, a short time before deceased. This sight caused her as much astonishment as grief: the person whom she saw damned did not seem to her to have lived badly. Then that unhappy soul said to her: "It is true that I practiced religion, but I was a slave of vanity. Ruled by the passion to please, I was not afraid to adopt indecent fashions to attract attention, and I kindled the fire of impurity in more than one heart. Ah! If Christian women knew how much immodesty in dress displeases God!" At the same moment, this unhappy soul was pierced by two fiery lances, and plunged into a caldron of liquid lead.

http://www.saintsbooks.net/books/Rev.%20F.X.%20Schouppe,%20S.J.%20-%20Hell.htm

One of my favorite books. 

[lauermar]

"To sum up, wherever women wear men's dress, it is to be considered a factor in the long run tearing apart human order."

What would Joan of Arc say about this? She wasn't making a feminist statement. She was a soldier for Christ. She coudn't do battle wearing a long gown, kirtle, linen chemise, cotehardie, sleeves tight to the elbow with hanging streamers and tippets.  I'm not a champion of women in drag. Just sayin.'

Cross-dressing charge

Joan of Arc's Death at the Stake, by Hermann Stilke[de] (1843)
Heresy was a capital crime only for a repeat offense, therefore a repeat offense of "cross-dressing" was now arranged by the court, according to the eyewitnesses. Joan agreed to wear feminine clothing when she abjured, which created a problem. According to the later descriptions of some of the tribunal members, she had previously been wearing male (i.e. military) clothing in prison because it gave her the ability to fasten her hosen, boots and tunic together into one piece, which deterred rape by making it difficult to pull her hosen off. She was evidently afraid to give up this outfit even temporarily because it was likely to be confiscated by the judge and she would thereby be left without protection.[84][85] A woman's dress offered no such protection. A few days after her abjuration, when she was forced to wear a dress, she told a tribunal member that "a great English lord had entered her prison and tried to take her by force."[86] She resumed male attire either as a defense against molestation or, in the testimony of Jean Massieu, because her dress had been taken by the guards and she was left with nothing else to wear.[87]


A plaque marking the place where Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, Old Marketplace, Rouen.
Her resumption of male military clothing was labeled a relapse into heresy for cross-dressing, although this would later be disputed by the inquisitor who presided over the appeals court that examined the case after the war. Medieval Catholic doctrine held that cross-dressing should be evaluated based on context, as stated in the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas, which says that necessity would be a permissible reason for cross-dressing.[88] This would include the use of clothing as protection against rape if the clothing would offer protection. In terms of doctrine, she had been justified in disguising herself as a pageboy during her journey through enemy territory, and she was justified in wearing armor during battle and protective clothing in camp and then in prison. The Chronique de la Pucelle states that it deterred molestation while she was camped in the field. When her soldiers' clothing wasn't needed while on campaign, she was said to have gone back to wearing a dress.[89] Clergy who later testified at the posthumous appellate trial affirmed that she continued to wear male clothing in prison to deter molestation and rape.[84]

Joan referred the court to the Poitiers inquiry when questioned on the matter. The Poitiers record no longer survives, but circumstances indicate the Poitiers clerics had approved her practice.[90] She also kept her hair cut short through her military campaigns and while in prison. Her supporters, such as the theologian Jean Gerson, defended her hairstyle for practical reasons, as did Inquisitor Brehal later during the appellate trial.[91] Nonetheless, at the trial in 1431 she was condemned and sentenced to die. Boyd described Joan's trial as so "unfair" that the trial transcripts were later used as evidence for canonizing her in the 20th century.[51]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#Cross-dressing_charge

[Graham]

"To sum up, wherever women wear men's dress, it is to be considered a factor in the long run tearing apart human order."

What would Joan of Arc say about this?

She was not a petty person who sought to take personal offense wherever possible, so I imagine she would take the common-sense Thomistic line of agreeing but noting that nevertheless some individual circumstances can justify it.

[lauermar]

I think intention is everything.

There's the intent to deceive, like celebrity transsexual persons who want us to believe they are the opposite sex from how they were born. In effect, they're telling God, "I will not serve you" as a man or woman.  That's rebellion.

Then there's a matter of practicality with no intent to deceive. It's just a practical necessity due to a job or commission like Joan of Arc in fighting a battle for Christ. This isn't rebellion.

[CaritasVeritate]

It all starts with immodesty indeed.. the then it falls from there. We must practice modesty in dressing and encourage everyone around us to dress the same way. There are good Catholic designers that promote modesty that I know of like www.CaeliNYC.com, its good to have these people promote modesty in this wild culture. Each of us must be a good example for everyone around us so as not to offend the Lord as Our Lady of Fatima said.