Church Contradiction on Baptism of Desire

[Quaremerepulisti]

Repeating the same Thomist talking points we've all heard 1000 times before doesn't make them any more convincing.

God bestows mercy on sinners according to how much He loves them and wills their good, which is the principle of Divine Predilection.

So, if God doesn't convert a sinner it proves He doesn't love him enough to will his conversion.  He loved him enough, apparently, to die on a Cross for his conversion but not enough to actually will his conversion. Of course the Thomists will follow with the usual sophistry about sufficient grace and resistance to grace but the previous sentence stands regardless.

Everyone is born with sufficient grace to be saved but there is an Elect whom God will infallibly save and who receive infallible graces towards that end, but they do not know who they are.

No one denies this, but the debate is about precisely where this infallibility derives from: God's will, or His foreknowledge?

According to the Thomist reasoning, God loves all men, but loves some more than others, simply due to the fact that He creates more goodness in one sinner than in another. (This may sound disturbing to Modernist sentimental ears but nonetheless makes perfect sense). One sinner would not be better than another unless he were loved more and given more help by God.

And that highlighted word is "simply" (pun intended) the fallacy of the entire system.  First, does God love some more than others because of the greater goodness He created in them or is the greater goodness the result of His greater love?  Which is it?

Here is a simple refutation of this "simply".  What about the sinner who prays for his conversion and therefore the grace is granted?  God doesn't convert the sinner "simply" because He loves Him more, but also because of the sinner's prayer.  Deny this, and you deny the efficacy of prayer.  Admit this, and then you admit an ontological dependence of the will of God toward creatures on the actions of those creatures.  It is no answer to say (as the Thomists will) that the prayer was willed by God.  The ontological dependence still exists.

God's choice of election is a true mystery which is based on His love of the "better things" of which He Himself is the cause.

Again there is the appeal to "mystery" at the exact time when things being to get uncomfortable for the Thomist in terms of reason.  He however makes no such allowance for his opponents.

God is the cause of all goodness, and no thing would be better than another unless it were loved more by God.

And no thing would be loved more by God unless it were better.  Right?

But God foreknew the malice of the wicked, and because it was their own and He was not the cause of it, He did not predestine it. The punishment, of course, following their demerit, this He foreknew and predestined."

The punishment is the withdrawal of Grace and hardness of heart in this earthly life and eternal damnation and suffering in the next.

Again, no one doubts this.  But the Thomist system begins, and not ends, with an absence of grace.

[Quaremerepulisti]

The reason why grace and predestination are mysteries is because they involve the concept of infinity, which our finite intellects aren't built to wrap themselves around.  It reminds me of the (old) Dr. Who episode where the Doctor and the Master have their Tardises inside each other (and also outside each other).  Both of these are true (and in Scripture so infallible).

Convert us to You, and we will be converted. (on the part of man)
Turn ye to Me, and I will turn to you. (on the part of God).

Undoubtedly, if we are converted, it is because God converted us.  Yet, if He turned to us, it is because we turned to Him.  It goes on to infinity.

[Cantarella]

Undoubtedly, if we are converted, it is because God converted us.  Yet, if He turned to us, it is because we turned to Him.  It goes on to infinity.

Then how would you explain the teachings of Holy Scripture that God knows and chooses us since before the very foundation of the world? It must be that somehow God KNOWS beforehand which ones are HIS. In Ephesians, St. Paul says "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. As He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in His sight in charity. Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto Himself, according to the purpose of His will. Unto the praise and glory of His grace, in which He hath graced us in His beloved Son".

And in Romans, he says: "We know that to them that love God all things work together unto good: to such as according to His purpose are called to be saints. For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom He predestinated, them He also called. And whom He called, them He also justified. And whom He justified, them He also glorified."


What about the rest then?

It seems more an Augustinian position in which God chooses souls in a completely autonomous and sovereign way giving Grace to some (the Elect), but not to all (the reprobate). He leaves the reprobate in their sin to be justly condemned through their own choice. Although it seems unequal, it is not necessarily unfair because we are all born sinners who have no claim whatsoever to the grace of God. Perhaps he allows the fate of the reprobate for the greater good of the Elect, as he can permit evil for "a greater good".


From Augustine's Doctrine of Grace and the Church's Approval of It

http://www.romancatholicism.org/augustine-notes.html

Augustine taught that since the Fall, man always acts according to whatever attracts (or "delights") him the most. The grace of Christ gives him to love God and infallibly to do the good for delight in him. Otherwise man is infallibly drawn into sin by the delight of concupiscence, worldly love. God saves the predestined by upholding them in grace, allowing others to finally fall away.

[Gardener]

Since the Fall is fine. But Adam and Eve had not yet fallen until they fell... which kind of throws the whole "Fallen" argument into a tailspin.

[Clare]

... Perhaps he allows the fate of the reprobate for the greater good of the Elect,..

I can't really imagine the elect thinking, "Thanks for eternally punishing all these reprobate; it makes things even better for us!"

[Non Nobis]

Since the Fall is fine. But Adam and Eve had not yet fallen until they fell... which kind of throws the whole "Fallen" argument into a tailspin.

I think that even for us not all sin is due to concupiscence or worldly love. Pride of self over God is something Satan had, something Adam and Eve had, and something we can have. 

I understand that concupiscence is something that makes each individual sin easier, not something that infallibly causes each individual sin.  (St. Augustine I do not understand)

Meandering thoughts (it is late)

Man freely chooses each sin. 

I find the distinction between sufficient grace and efficacious grace fits with my own experience.  Not all grace is irresistible, because I do resist grace from Christ; e.g. the grace of confession, even if it was a good confession.  Yet when I actually make a final good choice, the good is in the ultimate sense entirely from God, and God is all powerful, and He can choose some grace to be irresistible.  He gave such grace to Our Lady, and I see no reason why He could not give a minuscule portion to us.

Not thinking about grace at all, when I sin it is my fault. What God does or does not do regarding giving me grace before or after I sin does not make the sin any less my fault. i think this is important to remember. There is no unfairness in God's punishment. Grace, gratia, is free, purely a gift. Our very ability to use it is itself a gift. Adam and Eve had Sanctifying Grace and sufficient grace to obey God, but they disobeyed. Saying "But why didn't God give them efficacious grace" is like a child prying into God's infinite wisdom and love. God is not bound to prevent the free-will from sinning; He did it for Mary, but He was not bound to do it for Adam and Eve or for us.

[Clare]

... Perhaps he allows the fate of the reprobate for the greater good of the Elect,..

I can't really imagine the elect thinking, "Thanks for eternally punishing all these reprobate; it makes things even better for us!"

I'm reading All For Jesus by Fr Faber at the moment, and it contains this passage:

... Anxiety for the salvation of souls. This is the third and last instinct of the saints which puts us in sympathy with Jesus. The world and the material interests of the world are all against us. They carry us away. What we see is so much more impressive than what we believe. Yet Jesus came into the world for the saving of souls; He died for them; He shed His Precious Blood for them. In proportion as souls are saved His interests prosper; in proportion as they are lost, His interests as the Saviour of souls are injured...

I struggle to reconcile that with the idea of reprobation APM, or that it is allowed for the Elect's benefit. I've said it elsewhere, but it makes it sound like most people will just end up as collateral damage. It doesn't really fit with the fact that Jesus died for each one of us.

[Cantarella]

... Perhaps he allows the fate of the reprobate for the greater good of the Elect,..

I can't really imagine the elect thinking, "Thanks for eternally punishing all these reprobate; it makes things even better for us!"

Well, they can't be thinking that because they don't know who they are, to begin with. This is part of the dogma:

Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect (Denz., nn. 805 sq., 825 sq.)

805 No one moreover, so long as he lives in this mortal state, ought so far to presume concerning the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to decide for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestined [can. 15], as if it were true that he who is justified either cannot sin any more [can. 23], or if he shall have sinned, that he ought to promise himself an assured reformation. For except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen for Himself [can. 16].

825 Can. 15. If anyone shall say that a man who is born again and justified is bound by faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestined: let him be anathema [cf. n. 805].

[Cantarella]

I struggle to reconcile that with the idea of reprobation APM, or that it is allowed for the Elect's benefit. I've said it elsewhere, but it makes it sound like most people will just end up as collateral damage. It doesn't really fit with the fact that Jesus died for each one of us.

There is a clear Predestination / Predilection doctrine in the Church regardless of your agreement or disagreement on it. It is here again in case you missed it:


The Catholic dogma

Reserving the theological controversies for the next section, we deal here only with those articles of faith relating to predestination and reprobation, the denial of which would involve heresy....

According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events, all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact. Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil. Just as it is God's true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all, not only for the predestined, or for the faithful, though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption. Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect, yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin. Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will, so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness. God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins, though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners or pass over those who are not predestined. As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church. Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect.

[Cantarella]

Here are the Dezinger statements associated with the above dogma:

"God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events (cf. Denzinger, n. 1784), all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact (Denz., n. 607). Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil (Denz., n. 797). Just as it is God's true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all (Denz., n. 794), not only for the predestined (Denz., n. 1096), or for the faithful (Denz., n. 1294), though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption (Denz., n. 795). Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect (Denz., n. 322), yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin (Denz., nn. 200, 816). Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will (Denz., n. 1363), so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness (Denz., nn. 318, 321). God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins (Denz., n. 322), though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners (Denz., n. 807), or pass over those who are not predestined (Denz., n. 827). As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church (Denz., nn. 628, 631). Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect (Denz., nn. 805 sq., 825 sq.)".



God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events (cf. Denzinger, n. 1784)

1784  [The result of creation] .But God protects and governs by His providence all things which He created, "reaching from end to end mightily and ordering all things sweetly" [cf. Wisd. 8:1]. For "all things are naked and open to His eyes" [ Heb. 4:13], even those which by the free action of creatures are in the future.


all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact (Denz., n. 607).

607 27. All things happen from absolute necessity.


Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil (Denz., n. 797).

Chap. 5. On the Necessity of Preparation for Justification of Adults, and Whence it Proceeds

797 It [the Synod] furthermore declares that in adults the beginning of that justification must be derived from the predisposing grace [can. 3] of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from his vocation, whereby without any existing merits on their part they are called, so that they who by sin were turned away from God, through His stimulating and assisting grace are disposed to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and cooperating with the same grace [can. 4 and 5], in such wise that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself receiving that inspiration does not do nothing at all inasmuch as he can indeed reject it, nor on the other hand can he [can. 3] of his own free will without the grace of God move himself to justice before Him. Hence, when it is said in the Sacred Writings: "Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you" [Zach. 1:3], we are reminded of our liberty; when we reply: "Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted" [Lam. 5:21], we confess that we are anticipated by the grace of God.


Just as it is God's true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all (Denz., n. 794)

794 Whereby it came to pass that the heavenly Father, "the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort" [2 Cor. 1:3], when that "blessed fullness of time" was come [Eph. 1:10; Gal. 4:4] sent to men Christ Jesus [can. 1], his Son, who had been announced and promised [cf. Gen. 49:10, 18], both before the Law and at the time of the Law to many holy Fathers, that He might both redeem the Jews, who were under the Law, and the "gentiles, who did not follow after justice, might attain to justice" [Rom. 9:30], and that all men "might receive the adoption of sons" [Gal. 4:5]. "Him God has proposed as a propitiator through faith in his blood, for our sins" [Rom. 3:25], and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world [1 John 2:2].


not only for the predestined (Denz., n. 1096),

1096 5. It is Semipelagian to say that Christ died or shed His blood for all men without exception.

Declared and condemned as false, rash, scandalous, and intended in this sense, that Christ died for the salvation of the predestined, impious, blasphemous, contumelious, dishonoring todivinepiety, and heretical.


or for the faithful (Denz., n. 1294),

1294  4. Christ gave Himself for us as an oblation to God, not for the elect only, but for all the faithful only.


though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption (Denz., n. 795)

795 But although Christ died for all [2 Cor. 5:15], yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For, as indeed men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, in conception, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ, they never would be justified [can. 2 and 10], since in that new birth through the merit of His passion, the grace, whereby they are made just, is bestowed upon them. For this benefit the Apostle exhorts us always to "give thanks to the Father who has made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light" [Col. 1:12], "and has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption and remission of sins [Col. 1:13 ff.].


Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the Elect (Denz., n. 322),

322  Can. 3. But also it has seemed right concerning predestination and truly it is right according to the apostolic authority which says: "Or has not the potter power over the clay, from the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, but another unto dishonor?" [Rom. 9:21] where also he immediately adds: "What if God willing to show His wrath and to make known His power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath fitted or prepared for destruction, so that He might show the riches of His grace on the vessels of mercy, which He has prepared unto glory" [Rom. 9:22 f.]: faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved, the mercy of God precedes the merited good. In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God. In predestination, however, (we believe) that God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do * according to Scripture which says: "Who has done the things which are to be done" [ Is. 4 5:11, LXX]; in regard to evil men, however, we believe that God foreknew their malice, because it is from them, but that He did not predestine it, because it is not from Him. (We believe) that God, who sees all things, foreknew and predestined that their evil deserved the punishment which followed, because He is just, in whom, as Saint Augustine* says, there is concerning all things everywhere so fixed a decree as a certain predestination. To this indeed he applies the saying of Wisdom: "Judgments are prepared for scorners, and striking hammers for the bodies of fools" [Prov. 19:29]. Concerning this unchangeableness of the foreknowledge of the predestination of God, through which in Him future things have already taken place, even in Ecclesiastes the saying is well understood: "I know that all the works which God has made continue forever. We cannot add anything, nor take away those things which God has made that He may be feared" [ Eccles. 3:14]. "But we do not only not believe the saying that some have been predestined to evil by divine power," namely as if they could not be different, "but even if there are those who wish to believe such malice, with all detestation," as the Synod of Orange, "we say anathema to them" [see n. 200].


yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin (Denz., nn. 200, 816).

200a 1 . . . To your petition, which you have composed with laudable solicitude for the Faith, we have not delayed to give a Catholic reply. For you point out that some bishops of the Gauls, although they now agree that other goods are born of God's grace, think that faith, by which we believe in Christ, is only of nature, not of grace; and that (faith) has remained in the free will of man from Adam-which it is a sin to sayand is not even now conferred on individuals by the bounty of God's mercy; asking that, for the sake of ending the ambiguity, we confirm by the authority of the Apostolic See your confession, in which in the Opposite way you explain that right faith in Christ and the beginning of all good will, according to Catholic truth, is inspired in the minds of individuals by the preceding grace of God.

200b 2. And therefore, since many Fathers, and above all Bishop Augustine of blessed memory, but also our former high priests of the Apostolic See are proved to have discussed this with such detailed reasoning that there should be no further doubt in anyone that faith itself also comes to us from grace, we have thought that we should desist from a complex response, especially since according to these statements from the Apostle which you have arranged, in which he says: I have obtained mercy, that I may be faithful [1 Cor. 7:25], and elsewhere: It has been given to you, for Christ, not only that you may believe in Him, but also that you may suffer for Him [Phil. 1:29], it clearly appears that the faith by which we believe in Christ, just as all blessings, comes to each man from the gift of supernal grace, not from the power of human nature. And this, too, we rejoice that your Fraternity, after holding a meeting with certain priests of the Gauls, understood according to the Catholic faith, namely in these matters in which with one accord, as you have indicated, they explained that the faith, by which we believe in Christ, is conferred by the preceding grace of God; adding also that there is no good at all according to God, that anyone can will, or begin, or accomplish without the grace of God, since our Savior Himself says: Without Me you can do nothing" [John 15:5]. For it is certain and Catholic that in all blessings of which the chief is faith, though we do not will it, the mercy of God precedes us, that we may be steadfast in faith, just as David the prophet says: "My God, his mercy will prevent me" [Ps. 58:11]; and again: My mercy is with him [Ps. 88:25]; and elsewhere: His mercy follows me [ Ps. 22:6]. And similarly blessed Paul says: Or did anyone first give to him, and will he be rewarded by him? Since from him, and through him, andin him are all things[ Rom. 11:35 f.]. So we marvel very much that those, who believe the contrary, are oppressed by the remains of an ancient error even to the point that they do not believe that we come to Christ by the favor of God, but by that of nature, and say that the good of that very nature, which is known to have been perverted by Adam's sin, is the author of our faith rather than Christ; and do not perceive that they contradict the statement of the master who said: No one comes to me, except it be given to him by my Father [ John 6:44]; but they also oppose blessed Paul likewise, who exclaims to the Hebrews:Let us run in the contest proposed to us, looking uponthe author and finisher of faith, Jesus Christ[ Heb. 2:1 f.]. Since this is so, we cannot discover what they impute to the human will without the grace of God for belief in Christ, since Christ is the author and consummator of faith.

816 Can. 6. If anyone shall say that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of Himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul: let him be anathema.


Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will (Denz., n. 1363),

1363 13. When God wishes to save a soul and touches it with the interior hand of His grace, no human will resists Him.


so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness (Denz., nn. 318, 321).

318 Chap. 3. Omnipotent God wishes all menwithout exception to besaved[1 Tim. 2:4 ] although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one who saves; that certain ones perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish.

321 Can. 2. We faithfully hold that "God foreknows and has foreknown eternally both the good deeds which good men will do, and the evil which evil men will do," because we have that word of Scripture which says: "Eternal God, who are the witness of all things hidden, who knew all things before they are" [ Dan. 13:42]; and it seems right to hold "that the good certainly have known that through His grace they would be good, and that through the same grace they would receive eternal rewards; that the wicked have known that through their own malice they would do evil deeds and that through His justice they would be condemned by eternal punishment";* so that according to the Psalmist: "Because power belongs to God and mercy to the Lord, so that He will render to each man according to his works" [ Ps. 61:12 f.], and as apostolic doctrine holds: "To them indeed, who according to patience in good works, seek glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life; but to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man doing evil" [Rom. 2:7 ff.]. In the same sense, this same one says elsewhere: "In the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who do not know God, and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction . . . when He shall come to be glorified in His Saints, and to be made wonderful in all them who have believed [2 Thess. 1:7 ff.]. Certainly neither (do we believe) that the foreknowledge of God has placed a necessity on any wicked man, so that he cannot be different, but what that one would be from his own will, as God, who knew all things before they are, He foreknew from His omnipotent and immutable Majesty. "Neither do we believe that anyone is condemned by a previous judgment on the part of God but by reason of his own iniquity." * "Nor (do we believe) that the wicked thus perish because they were not able to be good; but because they were unwilling to be good, they have remained by their own vice in the mass of damnation either by reason of original sin or even by actual sin." *


God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins (Denz., n. 322),

322  Can. 3. But also it has seemed right concerning predestination and truly it is right according to the apostolic authority which says: "Or has not the potter power over the clay, from the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, but another unto dishonor?" [Rom. 9:21] where also he immediately adds: "What if God willing to show His wrath and to make known His power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath fitted or prepared for destruction, so that He might show the riches of His grace on the vessels of mercy, which He has prepared unto glory" [Rom. 9:22 f.]: faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved, the mercy of God precedes the merited good. In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God. In predestination, however, (we believe) that God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do * according to Scripture which says: "Who has done the things which are to be done" [ Is. 4 5:11, LXX]; in regard to evil men, however, we believe that God foreknew their malice, because it is from them, but that He did not predestine it, because it is not from Him. (We believe) that God, who sees all things, foreknew and predestined that their evil deserved the punishment which followed, because He is just, in whom, as Saint Augustine* says, there is concerning all things everywhere so fixed a decree as a certain predestination. To this indeed he applies the saying of Wisdom: "Judgments are prepared for scorners, and striking hammers for the bodies of fools" [Prov. 19:29]. Concerning this unchangeableness of the foreknowledge of the predestination of God, through which in Him future things have already taken place, even in Ecclesiastes the saying is well understood: "I know that all the works which God has made continue forever. We cannot add anything, nor take away those things which God has made that He may be feared" [ Eccles. 3:14]. "But we do not only not believe the saying that some have been predestined to evil by divine power," namely as if they could not be different, "but even if there are those who wish to believe such malice, with all detestation," as the Synod of Orange, "we say anathema to them" [see n. 200].


though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners (Denz., n. 807),

807 Those who by sin have fallen away from the received grace of justification, will again be able to be justified [can. 29] when, roused by God through the sacrament of penance, they by the merit of Christ shall have attended to the recovery of the grace lost. For this manner of justification is the reparation of one fallen, which the holy Fathers * have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of lost grace. For on behalf of those who after baptism fall into sin, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of penance, when He said: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" [John 20:22, 23]. Hence it must be taught that the repentance of a Christian after his fall is very different from that at his baptism, and that it includes not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation of them, or "a contrite and humble heart" [Ps. 50:19], but also the sacramental confession of the same, at least in desire and to be made in its season, and sacerdotal absolution, as well as satisfaction by fasting, almsgiving, prayers, and other devout exercises of the spiritual life, not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is remitted together with the guilt either by the sacrament or the desire of the sacrament, but for the temporal punishment [can. 30], which (as the Sacred Writings teach) is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, "have grieved the Holy Spirit" [cf. Eph. 4:30], and have not feared to "violate the temple of God" [1 Cor. 3:17]. Of this repentance it is written: "Be mindful, whence thou art fallen, do penance, and do the first works" [Rev. 2:5], and again: "The sorrow which is according to God, worketh penance steadfast unto salvation" [2 Cor. 7:10], and again: "Do penance" [Matt. 3:2; 4:17], and, "Bring forth fruits worthy of penance" [Matt. 3:8].


or pass over those who are not predestined (Denz., n. 827).

827 Can. 17. If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil: let him be anathema [cf. n. 800].


As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church (Denz., nn. 628, 631).

628 2. Paul never was a member of the devil, although he did certain acts similar to the acts of those who malign the Church.

631 5. The foreknown, although at one time he is in grace according to the present justice, yet is never a part of the holy Church; and the predestined always remains a member of the Church, although at times he may fall away from additional grace, but not from the grace of predestination


Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect

805 No one moreover, so long as he lives in this mortal state, ought so far to presume concerning the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to decide for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestined [can. 15], as if it were true that he who is justified either cannot sin any more [can. 23], or if he shall have sinned, that he ought to promise himself an assured reformation. For except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen for Himself [can. 16].

825 Can. 15. If anyone shall say that a man who is born again and justified is bound by faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestined: let him be anathema [cf. n. 805].

[Clare]

... Perhaps he allows the fate of the reprobate for the greater good of the Elect,..

I can't really imagine the elect thinking, "Thanks for eternally punishing all these reprobate; it makes things even better for us!"

Well, they can't be thinking that because they don't know who they are, to begin with.

I mean the people who are already in Heaven.

[Clare]

I struggle to reconcile that with the idea of reprobation APM, or that it is allowed for the Elect's benefit. I've said it elsewhere, but it makes it sound like most people will just end up as collateral damage. It doesn't really fit with the fact that Jesus died for each one of us.

There is a clear Predestination / Predilection doctrine in the Church regardless of your agreement or disagreement on it. It is here again in case you missed it:

The Catholic dogma

Reserving the theological controversies for the next section, we deal here only with those articles of faith relating to predestination and reprobation, the denial of which would involve heresy....

According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events, all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact. Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil. Just as it is God's true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all, not only for the predestined, or for the faithful, though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption. Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect, yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin. Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will, so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness. God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins, though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners or pass over those who are not predestined. As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church. Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect.

I don't have a problem with that.

[Quaremerepulisti]

Then how would you explain the teachings of Holy Scripture that God knows and chooses us since before the very foundation of the world? It must be that somehow God KNOWS beforehand which ones are HIS.

Of course He does.  No one denies His foreknowledge.  But it is still true that God grants grace because of a prayer, even though God knew from all eternity the prayer would be made and the grace granted.

And in Romans, he says: "We know that to them that love God all things work together unto good: to such as according to His purpose are called to be saints. For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom He predestinated, them He also called. And whom He called, them He also justified. And whom He justified, them He also glorified."

Note well in this passage: predestination here is ontologically after foreknowledge, not prior to it.

It seems more an Augustinian position in which God chooses souls in a completely autonomous and sovereign way giving Grace to some (the Elect), but not to all (the reprobate). He leaves the reprobate in their sin to be justly condemned through their own choice.

Unfortunately, it requires quite a bit of sophistry to reconcile this with the dogmatic teaching that Christ died for all and not just for the elect, and the Church has quite rightly not followed St. Augustine on everything.

Although it seems unequal, it is not necessarily unfair because we are all born sinners who have no claim whatsoever to the grace of God.

Ah, but we do, if Christ died for us.  If I have a debt I can't pay I have no claim on the creditor to demand he forgive the debt.  But, if someone else pays the debt on my behalf, I have every right to demand that.  This is what Christ did for us.

Perhaps he allows the fate of the reprobate for the greater good of the Elect, as he can permit evil for "a greater good".

And this is the lengths to which the defenders of St. Augustine and Thomism must go!  No thanks.  There is no greater creaturely good than the salvation of a soul.  So one must claim that's God's (accidental) glory is greater when a soul is damned then when a soul is saved.  No thanks.

[Cantarella]

Of course He does.  No one denies His foreknowledge.  But it is still true that God grants grace because of a prayer, even though God knew from all eternity the prayer would be made and the grace granted.

Are you saying that the Grace (of conversion) is depending upon particular actions on our part? I am not sure I understand your stand on Predestination. Do you hold a Molinist position?

"What, then, do we pray for on behalf of those who are unwilling to believe, except that God would work in them to will also? Certainly the apostle says, "Brethren, my heart's good will, indeed, and my prayer to God for them, is for their salvation." [Rom. x. 1] He prays for those who do not believe,--for what, except that they may believe? For in no other way do they obtain salvation. If, then, the faith of the petitioners precede the grace of God, does the faith of them on whose behalf prayer is made that they may believe precede the grace of God?--since this is the very thing that is besought for them, that on them that believe not--that is, who have not faith--faith itself may be bestowed? When, therefore, the gospel is preached, some believe, some believe not; but they who believe at the voice of the preacher from without, hear of the Father from within, and learn; while they who do not believe, hear outwardly, but inwardly do not hear nor learn;--that is to say, to the former it is given to believe; to the latter it is not given. Because "no man," says He, "cometh to me, except the Father which sent me draw him."

From "On Predestination of the Saints" by St. Augustine

[Quaremerepulisti]

Of course He does.  No one denies His foreknowledge.  But it is still true that God grants grace because of a prayer, even though God knew from all eternity the prayer would be made and the grace granted.

Are you saying that the Grace (of conversion) is depending upon particular actions on our part?

It can be, if it is granted as a result of prayer.  The prayer is admittedly itself a grace, though, and a grace which could have been hindered.

But note that even in the Thomist viewpoint the will of God has an ontological dependence on the actions of man.  God wills to punish the damned because of their sins and lack of repentance; this Divine will does not exist simpliciter.

I am not sure I understand your stand on Predestination. Do you hold a Molinist position?

No.  My position is neither Thomist nor Molinist.  It comes closest to that advocated by Fr. Francisco Marin-Sola, O.P., in the West.  God has foreknowledge of a given man's lack of resistance to grace and another man's resistance to it.  Yet the causal efficacy of grace does not derive from the lack of resistance, anymore than the causal efficacy of a car in motion does not derive from the lack of something blocking its path.  So for those who do not resist grace, predestination is certainly ante praevisa merita - grace is given as ordered to glory.  For those who demand a cause or explanation as to the lack of resistance, the answer is that it is a category error - an absence of something does not have a cause by definition.

"What, then, do we pray for on behalf of those who are unwilling to believe, except that God would work in them to will also? Certainly the apostle says, "Brethren, my heart's good will, indeed, and my prayer to God for them, is for their salvation." [Rom. x. 1] He prays for those who do not believe,--for what, except that they may believe? For in no other way do they obtain salvation. If, then, the faith of the petitioners precede the grace of God, does the faith of them on whose behalf prayer is made that they may believe precede the grace of God?--since this is the very thing that is besought for them, that on them that believe not--that is, who have not faith--faith itself may be bestowed? When, therefore, the gospel is preached, some believe, some believe not; but they who believe at the voice of the preacher from without, hear of the Father from within, and learn; while they who do not believe, hear outwardly, but inwardly do not hear nor learn;--that is to say, to the former it is given to believe; to the latter it is not given. Because "no man," says He, "cometh to me, except the Father which sent me draw him."

From "On Predestination of the Saints" by St. Augustine

I would be very careful about thinking that St. Augustine is the last word on everything relating to grace and predestination.  The Church has not followed him on everything, and doing so logically leads to heresies like Calvinism and Jansenism.