Where WOULD You Attend Mass?

Started by Mithrandylan, December 29, 2012, 07:53:42 PM

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Carleendiane

I like many independent priests, but try to stick with priests that are under the authority of an order superior, or a good bishop. The independent priest is in a precarious place, there is safety in authority over onesself. To submit is an element of humility. Saying this knowing full well not all authority is holy. But authority is the established norm, in our Church. To remove yourself from the authority over you, may be essential because it is just plain evil. But to just accept the independent status without striving to find proper authority is not the way to go. These priests at times, wear that status as a badge of traditionalism. Actually there is nothing traditional about being independent. Many DO yearn for a bishop, or an order to take them in, and through no fault of their own, are not successful. God knows what they are up against.

So, a bunch of words to say independent is not my preferred status of a priest.
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.

ThreeKings

#91
Quote from: Carleendiane on September 28, 2018, 09:19:14 AM
I like many independent priests, but try to stick with priests that are under the authority of an order superior, or a good bishop. The independent priest is in a precarious place, there is safety in authority over onesself. To submit is an element of humility. Saying this knowing full well not all authority is holy. But authority is the established norm, in our Church. To remove yourself from the authority over you, may be essential because it is just plain evil. But to just accept the independent status without striving to find proper authority is not the way to go. These priests at times, wear that status as a badge of traditionalism. Actually there is nothing traditional about being independent. Many DO yearn for a bishop, or an order to take them in, and through no fault of their own, are not successful. God knows what they are up against.

So, a bunch of words to say independent is not my preferred status of a priest.

According to canon law, all priests must have a superior.
There is good reason for this.  Any priest without a superior to  report to or ground him, is not independent, but rogue, and they often become ill in the head (as Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer et al.)

It IS fault of their own if they do not have a superior, because not only is a priest supposed to follow canon law, but a priest does not have to agree with everything his superior teaches. 

Nor is it up to the laity to define "good" bishop, except in regards to his lineage.  The rest is the SOLE responsibility of the priest, just as the decision to ordain this or that person a priest is a the SOLE responsibility of a bishop.

A priest is "independent" if he is not incardinated into a diocese nor part of a religious order, but he DOES have a superior.

St.Justin

Quote from: ThreeKings on September 28, 2018, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: Carleendiane on September 28, 2018, 09:19:14 AM
I like many independent priests, but try to stick with priests that are under the authority of an order superior, or a good bishop. The independent priest is in a precarious place, there is safety in authority over onesself. To submit is an element of humility. Saying this knowing full well not all authority is holy. But authority is the established norm, in our Church. To remove yourself from the authority over you, may be essential because it is just plain evil. But to just accept the independent status without striving to find proper authority is not the way to go. These priests at times, wear that status as a badge of traditionalism. Actually there is nothing traditional about being independent. Many DO yearn for a bishop, or an order to take them in, and through no fault of their own, are not successful. God knows what they are up against.

So, a bunch of words to say independent is not my preferred status of a priest.

I would argue that this summation is incorrect as a "superior " is the cases you refer to means someone with Ordinary Jurisdiction or the "superior" would have no Church authority over anyone. So I would say that anyone, Bishop or Priest, outside of the normal Church structure of Ordinary Jurisdiction is in reality operating in a totally independent manner. On the other hand the term Rogue has very dark and sinister connotations, such as a rogue bull elephant.

According to canon law, all priests must have a superior.
There is good reason for this.  Any priest without a superior to  report to or ground him, is not independent, but rogue, and they often become ill in the head (as Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer et al.)

It IS fault of their own if they do not have a superior, because not only is a priest supposed to follow canon law, but a priest does not have to agree with everything his superior teaches. 

Nor is it up to the laity to define "good" bishop, except in regards to his lineage.  The rest is the SOLE responsibility of the priest, just as the decision to ordain this or that person a priest is a the SOLE responsibility of a bishop.

A priest is "independent" if he is not incardinated into a diocese nor part of a religious order, but he DOES have a superior.

ThreeKings

Quote from: St.Justin on September 28, 2018, 01:09:56 PM
Quote from: ThreeKings on September 28, 2018, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: Carleendiane on September 28, 2018, 09:19:14 AM
I like many independent priests, but try to stick with priests that are under the authority of an order superior, or a good bishop. The independent priest is in a precarious place, there is safety in authority over onesself. To submit is an element of humility. Saying this knowing full well not all authority is holy. But authority is the established norm, in our Church. To remove yourself from the authority over you, may be essential because it is just plain evil. But to just accept the independent status without striving to find proper authority is not the way to go. These priests at times, wear that status as a badge of traditionalism. Actually there is nothing traditional about being independent. Many DO yearn for a bishop, or an order to take them in, and through no fault of their own, are not successful. God knows what they are up against.

So, a bunch of words to say independent is not my preferred status of a priest.

I would argue that this summation is incorrect as a "superior " is the cases you refer to means someone with Ordinary Jurisdiction or the "superior" would have no Church authority over anyone. So I would say that anyone, Bishop or Priest, outside of the normal Church structure of Ordinary Jurisdiction is in reality operating in a totally independent manner. On the other hand the term Rogue has very dark and sinister connotations, such as a rogue bull elephant.

According to canon law, all priests must have a superior.
There is good reason for this.  Any priest without a superior to  report to or ground him, is not independent, but rogue, and they often become ill in the head (as Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer et al.)

It IS fault of their own if they do not have a superior, because not only is a priest supposed to follow canon law, but a priest does not have to agree with everything his superior teaches. 

Nor is it up to the laity to define "good" bishop, except in regards to his lineage.  The rest is the SOLE responsibility of the priest, just as the decision to ordain this or that person a priest is a the SOLE responsibility of a bishop.

A priest is "independent" if he is not incardinated into a diocese nor part of a religious order, but he DOES have a superior.

This might clarify things for you a bit on this topic:
http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/supplied_jurisdiction/supplied_jurisdiction.htm

St.Justin

Quote from: ThreeKings on September 28, 2018, 03:51:11 PM
Quote from: St.Justin on September 28, 2018, 01:09:56 PM
Quote from: ThreeKings on September 28, 2018, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: Carleendiane on September 28, 2018, 09:19:14 AM
I like many independent priests, but try to stick with priests that are under the authority of an order superior, or a good bishop. The independent priest is in a precarious place, there is safety in authority over onesself. To submit is an element of humility. Saying this knowing full well not all authority is holy. But authority is the established norm, in our Church. To remove yourself from the authority over you, may be essential because it is just plain evil. But to just accept the independent status without striving to find proper authority is not the way to go. These priests at times, wear that status as a badge of traditionalism. Actually there is nothing traditional about being independent. Many DO yearn for a bishop, or an order to take them in, and through no fault of their own, are not successful. God knows what they are up against.

So, a bunch of words to say independent is not my preferred status of a priest.

I would argue that this summation is incorrect as a "superior " is the cases you refer to means someone with Ordinary Jurisdiction or the "superior" would have no Church authority over anyone. So I would say that anyone, Bishop or Priest, outside of the normal Church structure of Ordinary Jurisdiction is in reality operating in a totally independent manner. On the other hand the term Rogue has very dark and sinister connotations, such as a rogue bull elephant.

According to canon law, all priests must have a superior.
There is good reason for this.  Any priest without a superior to  report to or ground him, is not independent, but rogue, and they often become ill in the head (as Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer et al.)

It IS fault of their own if they do not have a superior, because not only is a priest supposed to follow canon law, but a priest does not have to agree with everything his superior teaches. 

Nor is it up to the laity to define "good" bishop, except in regards to his lineage.  The rest is the SOLE responsibility of the priest, just as the decision to ordain this or that person a priest is a the SOLE responsibility of a bishop.

A priest is "independent" if he is not incardinated into a diocese nor part of a religious order, but he DOES have a superior.

This might clarify things for you a bit on this topic:
http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/supplied_jurisdiction/supplied_jurisdiction.htm
Supplied Jurisdiction applies only in the administration of a Sacrament and at a very specific time and place . It is not always and everywhere. So it does not apply in your usage of a "superior".

Xavier

1. SSPX or FSSP
2. ICK or D-TLM
3. Eastern Rite

Those would be my traditional options in order of priority. The SSPX is in most of the cities where I've worked so it hasn't been an issue most of the time. I have been to Eastern Catholic churches every now and then, and they're ok. But I'm a Latin rite Catholic and I like going to the TLM as much as possible if I can help it. We had Mass every Saturday and Sunday and on First Fridays back in my hometown. First Friday and First Saturday Mass is very important imho. I would love to have daily TLM. We had daily TLM in the priory I attended and it was Heaven to be there for a while. Obviously, Tradition has a long way to go before we can have even frequent let alone daily Mass in many places. I think there may be as many as 10,000 possible Mass locations where faithful would be glad to have the TLM around the world if they could; unfortunately there is a shortage of Priests and vocations to meet that need. Then, we have needless "competition" and petty politics in traddieland getting in the way of the only thing it should be about: the salvation of all souls.

And for salvation, we need regular Holy Mass, frequent Holy Communion, Eucharistic adoration. Else, you are trying to fly without wings.

ICK or Diocesan TLM's are also ok. In the long run, the way forward for Tradition imho is for the TLM to begin to be said exclusively or almost exclusively in the dioceses again in the next 5-10 or at least 15 years. If we have tens of thousands of Priests worldwide saying the TLM at least on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, that will be a huge step forward for the faithful.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Prayerful

The diocesan Mass is a 15 min journey by car or bike, the SSPX chapel is an hour. The diocesan PP is extraordinarily skilled in singing Masses, also he and his assistants preach homilies that are clear and pointed, and of a definite length. Post Solemn High Mass teas, once a month.  The SSPX priests are holy and affable men, but meandering homilies of half an hour and over, plus a problematic former sacristan (he seems to think I can accommodate when I can do no such thing), mean I go there more rarely. I do like how they sing the Office (Sext), though. Tea and talking in the hall after the main Mass, even Sunday, is good. Also the prior is a very good confessor, drawing connections between sins, which helped improve me a good deal.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

Acolyte

#97
Well, I have an Independent chapel a mile from home and an SSPX chapel less than 2 miles away. Diocesan TLM 6-7 miles or so.

Really wanted to go to the SSPX or the Independent, but decided not to for reasons I will not go into.

So I go to the diocesan TLM. Open 24/7 with a Perpetual Adoration Chapel, First Friday and Saturday Two Hearts devotion, and more. A true diamond in the rough as diocesan parishes go.

Edit to add: I'm about a 40-45 minute drive from OLMC in Boston, Ky but haven't been there.
"From the moment we awake in the morning, let us pray continually in the words of holy David: Turn away my eyes, that they may not behold vanity"
St Alphonsus

"I will set my face against you, and you shall fall down before your enemies, and shall be made subject to them that hate you, you shall flee when no man pursueth you"
Leviticus 26:17

"Behold, O God our protector : and look upon the face of Thy Christ" (Ps. 79:20) Here is devotion to the face of Jesus Christ as prophesized by David."
Fr. Lawrence Daniel Carney III

desicatholic

1)SSPX
2)BYZANTINE, MELKITE, SYRO MALABAR, MARONITE
3) CMRI, SSPV
4) LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION: ANY CATHOLIC
I was a lost sheep

Elizabeth

Quote from: St.Justin on September 26, 2018, 05:00:05 PM

I was in Fr. Ringrose's parish for many years. He is most assuredly a Resistance priest.

He signed the 2012 Manifesto with the Resistance priests in August of 2012 objecting to Bp. Fellay's actions, and Fr. Ringrose regularly hosts Bp. Williamson when he comes to the D.C. area.  https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-chapels/what-us-resistance-chapels-have-mass-most-regularly/
We were there for awhile, but left after reading Father's letter with the list of participants in the Vienna meetings.  Bad apples, so not worth it.  So very grateful that the M. Family got the SSPX Mission  going. 


Patriarch

Quote from: Carleendiane on September 28, 2018, 09:19:14 AM
I like many independent priests, but try to stick with priests that are under the authority of an order superior, or a good bishop. The independent priest is in a precarious place, there is safety in authority over onesself. To submit is an element of humility. Saying this knowing full well not all authority is holy. But authority is the established norm, in our Church. To remove yourself from the authority over you, may be essential because it is just plain evil. But to just accept the independent status without striving to find proper authority is not the way to go. These priests at times, wear that status as a badge of traditionalism. Actually there is nothing traditional about being independent. Many DO yearn for a bishop, or an order to take them in, and through no fault of their own, are not successful. God knows what they are up against.

So, a bunch of words to say independent is not my preferred status of a priest.

I sympathise. My favourite priest is 'sedevacantist' who I believe is most especially holy and very good man. However, I cannot, typically attend his masses unless I haven't a solid alternative.
Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy great mercy . . . "
— Psalm 50, 3.

Sophia3

Quote from: Carleendiane on September 28, 2018, 09:19:14 AM
I like many independent priests, but try to stick with priests that are under the authority of an order superior, or a good bishop. The independent priest is in a precarious place, there is safety in authority over onesself. To submit is an element of humility. Saying this knowing full well not all authority is holy. But authority is the established norm, in our Church. To remove yourself from the authority over you, may be essential because it is just plain evil. But to just accept the independent status without striving to find proper authority is not the way to go. These priests at times, wear that status as a badge of traditionalism. Actually there is nothing traditional about being independent. Many DO yearn for a bishop, or an order to take them in, and through no fault of their own, are not successful. God knows what they are up against.

So, a bunch of words to say independent is not my preferred status of a priest.

You may not realize that there are independent priests who have several bishops who support them.

Carleendiane

#102
You may be right, but your ordinary independent priest has no one over him, which may be why he is dubbed an independent priest. Or am I missing something? I really am not certain.

Thank you 3k for the link. Still feel a bit fuzzy on it. The only ones I know, referred to as independent, have no superior. So I may be jaded on this.
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.

Elizabeth

Lack of accountability and obedience to an active Superior has been a horrible problem in Trad circles for decades.   :pray3:

Sophia3

Quote from: Carleendiane on November 27, 2018, 07:38:15 PM
You may be right, but your ordinary independent priest has no one over him, which may be why he is dubbed an independent priest. Or am I missing something? I really am not certain.

Thank you 3k for the link. Still feel a bit fuzzy on it. The only ones I know, referred to as independent, have no superior. So I may be jaded on this.

As you guessed, there are things you are missing.