What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?

[awkwardcustomer]

What's not a woman's vocation is belittling and insulting an ancient masculine activity like sports. What's not a woman's vocation is sitting around with other women and complaining- especially about their sons' masculine pursuits.

And the idea that boys get all the goods in life while girls get none is the kind of juvenile attitude that might possibly be excused in a child, but not in a grown woman.

Sport as training for combat is an ancient masculine activity. 

Sport as an end in itself with the aim of gaining applause, prizes and admiration is little more than pagan body worship.

Is it masculine to spend countless hours training the body to excel on the sports field?

[awkwardcustomer]

Can anyone show me a time in any Catholic culture in which women played sports? 

Can anyone show you a time in any Catholic culture in which men played organised sports for any other reason than to develop skills in battle.  And I don't mean boys kicking balls around in the street, but fully organised sport as an end in itself.

Modern sport is pagan.  And Catholic girls are supposed to cheer them on and support them in what, exactly? The quest for prizes, adulation and bodily prowess. 

[Maximilian]

  a. Your math is all wrong. The odds are much better than one in a million.

Sorry I wasn't able to get you an exact statistic.

It's not a question of being "exact." It's a question of being within several orders of magnitude. Your statement to your student is just plain wrong.

You're missing the point.  I only told that one student because he was using it as an excuse to not try at anything else.  I'm discouraging stupidly throwing aside any kind of study (such as math, language arts, history, etc.) for the big dream of being the next Messi.  Trying to achieve in sports is fine, but trying to achieve in sports to the neglect of all other things is ridiculous.

Neglect of what -- feminist studies? That's what you get at college these days. The idea that boys should sit around in desks reading books instead of engaging in healthy physical activity is what's "ridiculous." And talk about "extremes." The extremes of useless, pointless studies has gone far beyond "ridiculous."

We need masculine boys and feminine girls if there is to be a next generation. You don't get that by turning boys into girls and girls into boys as we are currently doing. Today's population collapse demonstrates that effeminate boys who spend all day reading books and masculine girls developing muscular thighs playing competitive sports are not capable of reproducing themselves.

[awkwardcustomer]

We need masculine boys and feminine girls if there is to be a next generation. You don't get that by turning boys into girls and girls into boys as we are currently doing. Today's population collapse demonstrates that effeminate boys who spend all day reading books and masculine girls developing muscular thighs playing competitive sports are not capable of reproducing themselves.

Definitely.  The question is - how to achieve this.

Relating back to an earlier post, the Weston Price Foundation claims that a traditional diet can alleviate many of today's fertility problems.  I remember the 1960s and 70s when people ate twice as much meat as they do today.  Men and women took traditional roles, yes, but just as significantly both men and women were strong, vigorous and cheerful.

For men and women to be strong in their traditional roles they need to eat proper food, not the plant based diet of today.  The average American gets only one third of his calories from animal foods.  This is seriously deficient and is the cause, some argue, of many of the health problems, both physical and mental, that are so prevalent across the West.  Predominantly plant based diets make people weak, depressed and listless, as I can personally attest.

Which brings me to the other reason for boys and men to develop their physical prowess - hunting, obviously.  I'm sure there are few girls and women who would not be ready to cheer the boys and men who came back from the hunt with enough meat to feed everyone. Are there not a thousand other activities that require masculine strength, perseverance, self discipline, team work etc, that have some useful ends that women and girls would truly appreciate?

Or you could send your young men to go and fast on a mountain for a month.  That would be very useful.

[Aeternitus]

The following are some excerpts from what I think is an excellent book: What is True Education by Fr Edward Leen (C.S.Sp. M.A., D.D. Litt), written in 1943, the year before he died.   I think it sheds further light on why competitive sports have a place in life for boys and why the same does not apply for girls.   

Man is to dominate by force and intelligence; a woman by tenderness and devotedness.  Initiative suits the man: adaptability is called for in the woman...

...Selfish and violent competition, with the passions it engenders, is unsuited to girls' education.  A girl should aim, in play only at the acquisition of that strength and grace which becomes a woman. Games should be indulged in by her not for the fierce joy of overcoming a rival, but for the proper and harmonious development of her physique as woman.   Since grace, restraint and endurance are more necessary for her than mere brute strength, all that fosters the 'abandon', the savage energy and the fierce desire to win, that belong to keen competitive games is harmful for the budding woman.  Still more unbecoming for her is the unrestrained exultation following the victory. 

"A team of victorious and yelling schoolboys stir our interest and our indulgence; a team of victorious and yelling schoolgirls strikes us simply as painful.  It is so ungraceful as to be almost disgraceful.  It is good to develop in the boy the spirit that makes for conquest.  The girl is to be educated in the spirit of helpfulness rather than in the spirit of conquest.  This spirit of triumph carries with it that element of selfishness and acquisition which harms the woman's nature.

The fostering of team-spirit in strenuous games is normal for boys, since man is forced to form associations with his fellows and work in union with them in order to succeed in the battle fought out in the arena of life.  This is not called for, in the same degree, in the case of girls.  Not for her the fierce strife of the arena and the passions that it stirs.  The movement towards athleticism and its accompanying spirit, is pernicious in its effects in the feminine world.  It tends to rob girls of what should properly belong to them, such as modesty, reserve, dignity, grace, tenderness, sensibility and devotedness to a person. The qualities which athleticism develops in her to replace these characteristically feminine ones are no asset.  Too vigorous competitive games under the eyes of the public are very unsuitable for girls.  The rob them of their reserve and modesty that should be their appanage.  They savour of that "exhibitionism" reprobated by Pius XI, in his encyclical on education, as ruinous to womanliness.  They are, moreover, harmful from the physical point of view.  The violent movements of strenuous games produce effects that unfit girls for, to render difficult, the functions of maternity.   It is a pity.  Vigour, independence, courage, force, hardihood are qualities that are called for in a boy owing to the role he has to fulfil in life.  But these are not the qualities to stress in forming the girl to be a true woman.

A bit of information about Fr Leen: 

Educator, retreat master, and spiritual writer; b. Abbeyfeale, Ireland, Aug. 17, 1885; d. Dublin, Nov. 10, 1944. Edward Thomas Leen grew up in a deeply religious family, which produced three priests, including Archbishop James Leen, CSSp, of Mauritius. Educated at Rockwell College, Cashel, he made his profession in the Congregation of the Holy Ghost at Chevilly, France, in 1909. After studying philosophy at University College, Dublin, he went to Rome in 1912, where he earned his doctorate in theology summa cum laude at the Gregorian University and earned the Pius X gold medal for excellence in dogmatic theology. After working for two years as a missionary in Nigeria, he returned to Dublin and became dean of studies and subsequently president of Blackrock College. He played a prominent role in the founding of the Missionary Sisters of the Holy Rosary (1924). In 1930 he joined the staff of the Spiritan Senior Seminary in Ireland, of which he became president in 1939.

His other works are Progress in Mental Prayer (1935); In the Likeness of Christ (1936); The Holy Ghost (1937); Why the Cross? (1938); The True Vine and Its Branches (1938); The Church Before Pilate (1939); and The Voice of a Priest, ed. by Bernard J. Kelly, CSSp (1946).

[Aeternitus]

Not an equivalent for EVERY good enjoyed by other siblings, but some. There is absolutely NO equivalent for girls at all. This is a huge problem and all my trad mom friends deal with the same difficulties.

I know families in which the girls did compete in their fields – cooking, singing, sewing, photography.  Their families encouraged and supported them, including those who were too young to have developed competence in any field themselves, but just enjoyed being part of the family at the event.  It may not be a weekly thing for the girls, but it was something they applied themselves to with that commitment and attention to detail in which woman is known to excel.  They earned the rewards and benefits, including learning to cope with disappointment and not giving up if one didn't manage to secure the blue ribbon.         

[awkwardcustomer]

The following are some excerpts from what I think is an excellent book: What is True Education by Fr Edward Leen (C.S.Sp. M.A., D.D. Litt), written in 1943, the year before he died.   I think it sheds further light on why competitive sports have a place in life for boys and why the same does not apply for girls.   

Man is to dominate by force and intelligence; a woman by tenderness and devotedness.  Initiative suits the man: adaptability is called for in the woman...

...Selfish and violent competition, with the passions it engenders, is unsuited to girls' education.  A girl should aim, in play only at the acquisition of that strength and grace which becomes a woman. Games should be indulged in by her not for the fierce joy of overcoming a rival, but for the proper and harmonious development of her physique as woman.   Since grace, restraint and endurance are more necessary for her than mere brute strength, all that fosters the 'abandon', the savage energy and the fierce desire to win, that belong to keen competitive games is harmful for the budding woman.  Still more unbecoming for her is the unrestrained exultation following the victory. 

"A team of victorious and yelling schoolboys stir our interest and our indulgence; a team of victorious and yelling schoolgirls strikes us simply as painful.  It is so ungraceful as to be almost disgraceful.  It is good to develop in the boy the spirit that makes for conquest.  The girl is to be educated in the spirit of helpfulness rather than in the spirit of conquest.  This spirit of triumph carries with it that element of selfishness and acquisition which harms the woman's nature.

The fostering of team-spirit in strenuous games is normal for boys, since man is forced to form associations with his fellows and work in union with them in order to succeed in the battle fought out in the arena of life.  This is not called for, in the same degree, in the case of girls.  Not for her the fierce strife of the arena and the passions that it stirs.  The movement towards athleticism and its accompanying spirit, is pernicious in its effects in the feminine world.  It tends to rob girls of what should properly belong to them, such as modesty, reserve, dignity, grace, tenderness, sensibility and devotedness to a person. The qualities which athleticism develops in her to replace these characteristically feminine ones are no asset.  Too vigorous competitive games under the eyes of the public are very unsuitable for girls.  The rob them of their reserve and modesty that should be their appanage.  They savour of that "exhibitionism" reprobated by Pius XI, in his encyclical on education, as ruinous to womanliness.  They are, moreover, harmful from the physical point of view.  The violent movements of strenuous games produce effects that unfit girls for, to render difficult, the functions of maternity.   It is a pity.  Vigour, independence, courage, force, hardihood are qualities that are called for in a boy owing to the role he has to fulfil in life.  But these are not the qualities to stress in forming the girl to be a true woman.

A bit of information about Fr Leen: 

Educator, retreat master, and spiritual writer; b. Abbeyfeale, Ireland, Aug. 17, 1885; d. Dublin, Nov. 10, 1944. Edward Thomas Leen grew up in a deeply religious family, which produced three priests, including Archbishop James Leen, CSSp, of Mauritius. Educated at Rockwell College, Cashel, he made his profession in the Congregation of the Holy Ghost at Chevilly, France, in 1909. After studying philosophy at University College, Dublin, he went to Rome in 1912, where he earned his doctorate in theology summa cum laude at the Gregorian University and earned the Pius X gold medal for excellence in dogmatic theology. After working for two years as a missionary in Nigeria, he returned to Dublin and became dean of studies and subsequently president of Blackrock College. He played a prominent role in the founding of the Missionary Sisters of the Holy Rosary (1924). In 1930 he joined the staff of the Spiritan Senior Seminary in Ireland, of which he became president in 1939.

His other works are Progress in Mental Prayer (1935); In the Likeness of Christ (1936); The Holy Ghost (1937); Why the Cross? (1938); The True Vine and Its Branches (1938); The Church Before Pilate (1939); and The Voice of a Priest, ed. by Bernard J. Kelly, CSSp (1946).

Fr Edward Leen seems to think that all women are like the Prioress and none like the Wife of Bath. 

The Wife of Bath has been married five times, earns her living as a hat maker, has travelled on pilgrimage all over Europe and is not reluctant to voice her opinions.

The Prioress is shy, modest, dainty and elegant. She never lefts drop a crumb when eating and cries when a dog dies.

And yet Chaucer had room for both among the Canterbury pilgrims.

[queen.saints]

Can anyone show me a time in any Catholic culture in which women played sports? 

Can anyone show you a time in any Catholic culture in which men played organised sports for any other reason than to develop skills in battle.  And I don't mean boys kicking balls around in the street, but fully organised sport as an end in itself.

Modern sport is pagan.  And Catholic girls are supposed to cheer them on and support them in what, exactly? The quest for prizes, adulation and bodily prowess. 

What's not a woman's vocation is belittling and insulting an ancient masculine activity like sports. What's not a woman's vocation is sitting around with other women and complaining- especially about their sons' masculine pursuits.

And the idea that boys get all the goods in life while girls get none is the kind of juvenile attitude that might possibly be excused in a child, but not in a grown woman.

Sport as training for combat is an ancient masculine activity. 

Sport as an end in itself with the aim of gaining applause, prizes and admiration is little more than pagan body worship.

Is it masculine to spend countless hours training the body to excel on the sports field?

Sports have been played by men for all of known history, including in all Catholic nations of the world. It's not our place, in 2019, to judge whether men's motives are pure enough when they engage in the same activities in which men have always engaged.

It's also not our place to decide which aspects of human life are superfluous and which are necessary. Hurling, for instance, has been played in Ireland for at least 4,000 years. Apparently all the men who have played it for millennia disagree with your idea that they are wasting their time.

[Maximilian]

The following are some excerpts from what I think is an excellent book: What is True Education by Fr Edward Leen (C.S.Sp. M.A., D.D. Litt), written in 1943, the year before he died.   

Thanks for posting the excellent excerpt and also for the information re Fr. Edward Leen whom I was not previously aware of.

Do you know whether his books are still available in Ireland?

[coffeeandcigarette]

What's not a woman's vocation is belittling and insulting an ancient masculine activity like sports. What's not a woman's vocation is sitting around with other women and complaining- especially about their sons' masculine pursuits.

And the idea that boys get all the goods in life while girls get none is the kind of juvenile attitude that might possibly be excused in a child, but not in a grown woman.

I am not belittling ancient masculine activities, I am belittling modern ones. Modern sports do very little if nothing to help men become more masculine in the true sense of the word. Testosterone does not equal masculinity.

Also, I have never said that all of life is fun for boys and not for girls. This is a very particular area of life. Since you seem to have a handle on all the fun social activities for trad Catholic girls, what do your daughters do?

[Maximilian]

The following are some excerpts from what I think is an excellent book: What is True Education by Fr Edward Leen (C.S.Sp. M.A., D.D. Litt), written in 1943, the year before he died.   I think it sheds further light on why competitive sports have a place in life for boys and why the same does not apply for girls.   

Here is an article by Fr. Beck reviewing (or at least taking inspiration from) the book for the Angelus magazine:

http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=3360

July 2012
A DAUNTING MISSION
Fr. Gerard Beck, SSPX

What Is Education?
Fr. Edward Leen, a Holy Ghost Father renowned for his spiritual writings, but equally qualified to write on the subject of education, described the process and mission of education as follows:

"Christian education is a cultural process by which the reasonable being ushered into this world is prepared, during the years of childhood and adolescence, to play his part worthily as a citizen of the city of men and as a citizen of the city of God. It is an all-embracing process concerned with the whole man, with his intellect, his will, his emotions, and his physical powers: it aims at securing, by a balanced cultivation and development of all these, that the person may not, in the arena of life, prove a traitor either to his manhood or his Christianity."1

It is a noble vision, and one that looks to the essential. A true education is one that prepares a child for the great task of living as it becomes a Catholic man to live. Marked by our materialistic, comfort-driven world, we easily lose sight of this. Education is too often reduced to the very pragmatic "Will it help me in the long run get a better job?"

[coffeeandcigarette]

Sports are all about pride and self-image. I agree with Awkward, if men really want to make sure they are super masculine and pump their bodies with testosterone, they should be clearing a few acres of land, stacking a rick of wood a day, or walking/hiking through nature.

Girls should be able to play sports because it's unfair, but sports are evil and men should only be able to chop wood? Make up your mind

I never said girls should be able to play sports. I said there was a not a fun, social equivalent for trad girls. It has nothing to do with sports. I also never said sports are evil. I just said that they used to serve a very specific purpose in society, and now they don't. Their usefulness is gone, and they are purely for recreation now. You need to read my comments a little more thoroughly, or don't bother responding.

[coffeeandcigarette]

Can anyone show me a time in any Catholic culture in which women played sports? 

Can anyone show you a time in any Catholic culture in which men played organised sports for any other reason than to develop skills in battle.  And I don't mean boys kicking balls around in the street, but fully organised sport as an end in itself.

Modern sport is pagan.  And Catholic girls are supposed to cheer them on and support them in what, exactly? The quest for prizes, adulation and bodily prowess. 

What's not a woman's vocation is belittling and insulting an ancient masculine activity like sports. What's not a woman's vocation is sitting around with other women and complaining- especially about their sons' masculine pursuits.

And the idea that boys get all the goods in life while girls get none is the kind of juvenile attitude that might possibly be excused in a child, but not in a grown woman.

Sport as training for combat is an ancient masculine activity. 

Sport as an end in itself with the aim of gaining applause, prizes and admiration is little more than pagan body worship.

Is it masculine to spend countless hours training the body to excel on the sports field?

Sports have been played by men for all of known history, including in all Catholic nations of the world. It's not our place, in 2019, to judge whether men's motives are pure enough when they engage in the same activities in which men have always engaged.

It's also not our place to decide which aspects of human life are superfluous and which are necessary. Hurling, for instance, has been played in Ireland for at least 4,000 years. Apparently all the men who have played it for millennia disagree with your idea that they are wasting their time.

Ok, we know that men have played sports for all of known history. No one is debating that. It is simply that at some point, sports became recreational and was no longer used for developing soldiers/warriors. It is not helpful for a mans vocation to play organized sports. It has nothing to do with pure motives, it is about what ought to be encouraged.

[Maximilian]

I know families in which the girls did compete in their fields – cooking, singing, sewing, photography.       

I was listening to a cooking show on the radio just this past Sunday (hosted by the tall, thin guy with a bow tie who is the publisher of Cook's Illustrated and has had a cooking show for many years on PBS).

A young girl called in because previously she had called to get suggestions to make her cookies better which she was preparing to enter at the county fair. She called back to tell the hosts that she had used some of their ideas and that she got 3rd place. They were genuinely thrilled to hear the news. It shows that these traditional activities still go on in various places, and nothing is stopping us from participating if we wish.

[queen.saints]

. 
And Catholic girls are supposed to cheer them on and support them in what, exactly? The quest for prizes, adulation and bodily prowess.

A priest in Maryland gave an excellent sermon last year on exactly this topic and how it plays into having a happy marriage. He used the example of Jacob rolling back the stone over the communal well for Rachel. The stone was designed to require three men to move it, so that no one would have an unfair advantage. Just seeing Rachel moved Jacob to roll back the stone and show off that he had the strength of three men. There was no good reason for him rolling back the stone right then instead of waiting for the other men, except to show off.  The instinct to show off his "bodily prowess"  and receive "adulation" came out simply by being in Rachel's presence, and being in her presence made him stronger. This is an instinct that all men share and the priest said that a wife needs to be able to bring it out in her husband. As Rachel shows, she also needs to be able to bring it out before marriage if she wants a man to fall in love with and marry her.