Incurring Debt for Elderly Parents

[Michael Wilson]

My sister and I lived with our parents until both of them died; my Dad died very soon after suffering a major stroke, and the priest was able to give him the last rites before he passed. My Mom contracted dementia, and we took care of her at home with the help of paying people to stay with her while we worked. My Dad was 80 years old and my Mom 89. Two other sisters would come from time to time and help out; they were a big help. With everyone pitching in, it was manageable.   

[Mushroom]

Can't the siblings and maybe your family contribute to help paying the rent for the inlaws? That would look like to be a few hundred dollars a month? Do your in-laws have debt? Are they financially responsible?

[MamaBearJMJ]

Can't the siblings and maybe your family contribute to help paying the rent for the inlaws? That would look like to be a few hundred dollars a month? Do your in-laws have debt? Are they financially responsible?

They do not have debt that I am aware of. I guess what's responsible is subjective. I'd say decently responsible. They aren't blowing money left and right. But they probably should have saved more during their working years and probably shouldn't have retired at the earlier age.

Since they are only 70, we don't know how much longer they have. If we helped with the rent month to month it would probably end up costing more in the long run. If we paid $200 a month it would pay for itself in about 8 years. And all that rent money is wasted vs at least helping improve the worth of the sisters property and her children benefiting. And if one in law dies sooner rather than later, they lose a social security check and it would be more like us covering the whole $600 rent a month, which would get more expensive even quicker.

I know two siblings wouldn't help at all in that scenario. One of the siblings was living with them with their children not too long ago because they had no place to live. That didn't end well for anyone.

[MamaBearJMJ]

Ah so the sister will also get additional money from the home and pay nothing in for it.  I already don't trust her.

It doesn't sound like you really wanted our opinions.  Do what you want.  I'm done here.

That's fine if you are done. I think I'm just looking for more of an explanation to defend your position. Is there something in the Bible, Catechism, or church teaching that could help me understand?

In my mind I'm thinking of several Bible verses (one from the Old Testament, one from Timothy in the New) that give clear examples of our obligation to provide and care for our own. Jesus says if we are asked for our cloak to give them two and be generous. We shouldn't count the cost to us when it comes to charity. But we also do need to be responsible and good stewards. So I'm looking for the balance in the theology. Everyone had opinions but I post this on a Catholic forum because all our decisions should be based on Christs teachings. I'm seeing a lot of people say to be selfish and think of myself but no examples in teachings can back that thought up.

[MamaBearJMJ]

My sister and I lived with our parents until both of them died; my Dad died very soon after suffering a major stroke, and the priest was able to give him the last rites before he passed. My Mom contracted dementia, and we took care of her at home with the help of paying people to stay with her while we worked. My Dad was 80 years old and my Mom 89. Two other sisters would come from time to time and help out; they were a big help. With everyone pitching in, it was manageable.   

Thank you. I feel like this is what should happen with everyone pitching in. However it makes it difficult when people choose not to. Two of the adult children have fallen away from the faith. Those two are the ones that won't be helping at all financially.

[The Curt Jester]

I'm of the belief that children should be willing to step in and take care of their parents if necessary without looking for cost compensation (although I am not against that if people want to work it out).  My parents invested a lot into raising me and my siblings.  If at some point I have to take care of them, then so be it.

Yes, one could say that they needed to invest more or save so they wouldn't be dependent on children, but guess what?  Even if you do that, there's no guarantee that the investments will pay off or that savings won't be lost to some catastrophe, or that cost of the living skyrocketed beyond expectation, or that pensions were entirely cut.

If you can manage helping them without making your own family go wanting, go for it.  Your reward is in heaven, not in monetary assets in this world.

[diaduit]

How does the sister benefit from their moving onto their land? They will inherit the mobile home when they die.  Will they then rent it out/sell it?

I would think that if you were to drop the huge amount of money you would be dropping, you should own it.  Could your in-laws sell it to you, so it is in YOUR names (and sister relinquishes any right to it when they die)?  The $ you borrow would then be a mortgage.  Then you and your husband can do whatever you wish to do with it when they die. 

You really want to make sure that whatever you do, if anything, there are no strings attached with your husband's siblings/families.

This situation does seem like quite the pickle, and I can relate to it very much.  However, I think this has the potential to turn ugly down the road.  You guys put down all the money and your sister-in-law (and husband?) reaps all of the benefits.  NOT GOOD.

You definitely should/need to consult with a lawyer.  Don't go forward assuming that family could never bite you in the butt down the road.

The sister plans to rent it out to their adult children after my in laws die. The sister has 8 children from adults down to age 9 or so. With the cost of living rising, it's becoming very common in our area for adult children, including married children with kids, to continue living with their parents for some time.

So the mobile home is worth about $80,000. We don't have an exact cost yet on getting everything livable but we are estimating $20,000, hopefully a little less if others are contributing. I don't consider that a huge amount of money or anything close to a "mortgage". That's a small personal loan amount. I definitely am aware things can and may go sour between people.

But honestly, I'm kind of baffled by these responses. While money is definitely something we should be good stewards with, and it's definitely a practical consideration given the circumstances, this is a more of a moral question on our duties towards our parents (and where that line is drawn). What benefits do the adult children have? The benefit of knowing our parents/in laws don't have to worry about if they can pay their bills this month or if they have to skip a meal and fast because money is so tight. The benefit of them being able to live out their final years in a nice rural private area close to family. That's such a blessing to give to parents. While $15k-$20k is a sizeable amount of money, in the grand scheme of things it's a drop in hat, and it's not going to make or break us. It may set us back a year or two, if anything. I'd be much more hesitant if we were talking $50k.

Hypothetically we could ask the in laws to pay a portion monthly towards reimbursing us. Perhaps if they die before finishing their side of the deal, they could make an agreement that if the sister rents it out she would contribute towards paying us back. It is a possibility if everyone is agreeable.

I'm just curious what others are doing with their elderly parents. Surely not everyone is financially set in their old age or can fully care for themselves up to the end. Are adult children just not taking care of them? We have a duty to honor our parents, and it doesn't seem like honoring them to let them fend for themselves.

Its hard to give a right opinion given we don't know the people involved but it seems to me that if your sister is going to benefit financially in the long run then she should cough up the initial cost.  If she has adult children who might be working also and bringing in a wage then it wouldn't be as hard for her.  I dont' begrudge your sister gaining financially if she is willing to take on the lions share of the burden in the immediate care of her parents, so its not from spite I say this.
My siblings except one looked after both our parents at home and they needed a lot of care (showering, dressing, lifting into wheelchairs etc).  We had public health nurses for some of it until covid.  My brothers did the heavy lifting but I took care of their hospital visits, admin in the house, sorting out problems, emotionally, spiritually and so on.  The one sibling who did zilch in their care, up until their deaths I was on very good terms with him, was the one who turned extremely nasty almost immediately after my mothers death because she gave me a little side gift that wasn't hidden from anyone (the house/family was dysfunctional and it was a huge burden on me all my adult life, btw I loved them to bits so I'm not complaining).....you have no idea of the shock I got on the names he was calling me after my mother died and the same over the covid vaccine for my Dad and his death a year later.  We're still not 100% but speaking from experience, I can see some red flags on this.

I have a mobile home for a holiday home.  It takes very little to run it and we are in a cold country.  I have a friend who has 7 children and lives in a mobile home run by a diesel generator.  She has fairy lights for light at night, gas drum for hot water and cooking and she powers her tablet, phones from the generator at night. 

You could offer 2k to move the parents mobile, they could hook up to a generator and all you would have to do is sort out the sewage and the water.  Could they work off grid for a few months and use the rent money being saved towards the expense of connecting to the water?  I say this also not knowing the planning laws etc in your area.

Let the sister take the rest of the expense.  Thats my advice but on the caveat that I really don't know them personally so I could be misrepresenting your sister in law.
There are also Bible quotes of adult children leaving their family to start their own and you have a duty first to your own family.

[Baylee]

Ah so the sister will also get additional money from the home and pay nothing in for it.  I already don't trust her.

It doesn't sound like you really wanted our opinions.  Do what you want.  I'm done here.

That's fine if you are done. I think I'm just looking for more of an explanation to defend your position. Is there something in the Bible, Catechism, or church teaching that could help me understand?

In my mind I'm thinking of several Bible verses (one from the Old Testament, one from Timothy in the New) that give clear examples of our obligation to provide and care for our own. Jesus says if we are asked for our cloak to give them two and be generous. We shouldn't count the cost to us when it comes to charity. But we also do need to be responsible and good stewards. So I'm looking for the balance in the theology. Everyone had opinions but I post this on a Catholic forum because all our decisions should be based on Christs teachings. I'm seeing a lot of people say to be selfish and think of myself but no examples in teachings can back that thought up.

We did the "right thing" in a similar situation.  I won't go into further specifics, but we paid $100,000 ($50,000 was new debt for us) to help out my spouse's parents.  So, I don't like the implication that I am telling you to be "selfish".

Besides, I wasn't opining about what is the "right thing" to do because your first post was not clear about what kind of opinion you were looking for.  You didn't ask for Church teachings.  It seems to me that you are really just looking for people to agree with what you think needs to be done.

I was opining on making sure you protect yourself and to be cautious before jumping into it.  That isn't being "selfish".  It's called being "prudent".  These things can go awfully wrong, but it also seems that that advice is not welcome.

It isn't against our Faith to protect ourselves when helping out our elderly parents.  Honoring our parents doesn't necessarily mean doing anything and everything for them.  We thankfully got a lawyer involved and it helped us immensely when things went "wrong" down the road (which also included a sister that appeared to be doing the "right thing").

Maybe you should consult a traditional Catholic priest who knows Church teachings, the Bible, etc.  This sort of situation requires proper interpretation of Bible verses, commandments, etc.  None of us here can do that.  But I bet that a good and holy priest wouldn't say consulting a lawyer would be "selfish".

[Baylee]

How does the sister benefit from their moving onto their land? They will inherit the mobile home when they die.  Will they then rent it out/sell it?

I would think that if you were to drop the huge amount of money you would be dropping, you should own it.  Could your in-laws sell it to you, so it is in YOUR names (and sister relinquishes any right to it when they die)?  The $ you borrow would then be a mortgage.  Then you and your husband can do whatever you wish to do with it when they die. 

You really want to make sure that whatever you do, if anything, there are no strings attached with your husband's siblings/families.

This situation does seem like quite the pickle, and I can relate to it very much.  However, I think this has the potential to turn ugly down the road.  You guys put down all the money and your sister-in-law (and husband?) reaps all of the benefits.  NOT GOOD.

You definitely should/need to consult with a lawyer.  Don't go forward assuming that family could never bite you in the butt down the road.

The sister plans to rent it out to their adult children after my in laws die. The sister has 8 children from adults down to age 9 or so. With the cost of living rising, it's becoming very common in our area for adult children, including married children with kids, to continue living with their parents for some time.

So the mobile home is worth about $80,000. We don't have an exact cost yet on getting everything livable but we are estimating $20,000, hopefully a little less if others are contributing. I don't consider that a huge amount of money or anything close to a "mortgage". That's a small personal loan amount. I definitely am aware things can and may go sour between people.

But honestly, I'm kind of baffled by these responses. While money is definitely something we should be good stewards with, and it's definitely a practical consideration given the circumstances, this is a more of a moral question on our duties towards our parents (and where that line is drawn). What benefits do the adult children have? The benefit of knowing our parents/in laws don't have to worry about if they can pay their bills this month or if they have to skip a meal and fast because money is so tight. The benefit of them being able to live out their final years in a nice rural private area close to family. That's such a blessing to give to parents. While $15k-$20k is a sizeable amount of money, in the grand scheme of things it's a drop in hat, and it's not going to make or break us. It may set us back a year or two, if anything. I'd be much more hesitant if we were talking $50k.

Hypothetically we could ask the in laws to pay a portion monthly towards reimbursing us. Perhaps if they die before finishing their side of the deal, they could make an agreement that if the sister rents it out she would contribute towards paying us back. It is a possibility if everyone is agreeable.

I'm just curious what others are doing with their elderly parents. Surely not everyone is financially set in their old age or can fully care for themselves up to the end. Are adult children just not taking care of them? We have a duty to honor our parents, and it doesn't seem like honoring them to let them fend for themselves.

Its hard to give a right opinion given we don't know the people involved but it seems to me that if your sister is going to benefit financially in the long run then she should cough up the initial cost.  If she has adult children who might be working also and bringing in a wage then it wouldn't be as hard for her.  I don't' begrudge your sister gaining financially if she is willing to take on the lion's share of the burden in the immediate care of her parents, so it's not from spite I say this.

Correct. We don't know the people involved. And I too would not begrudge this of her assuming she has her parents' and siblings' best interests at heart.  She may never try to take advantage of the OP, but things can and do change even when dealing with people you do know. Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.   

[Kaesekopf]

They couldn't afford to retire, but still could afford to smoke?  What's their monthly outlay on cigarettes compared to their monthly trailer rent? 

While $15k-$20k is a sizeable amount of money, in the grand scheme of things it's a drop in hat, and it's not going to make or break us. It may set us back a year or two, if anything. I'd be much more hesitant if we were talking $50k.

How many children to these parents have?  It sounds like your in-laws need to have a conversation with their kids and explain what's going on.  If it's 15-20k, spreading it over over all the children shouldn't be some onerous task, especially if you asked them to have it ready within a year (I doubt you'd get utilities and stuff out to the rural area quicker than a few months, anyways).  I skimmed the responses, but why can't the in-laws take out a loan to finance this? 

If they're currently paying $600/mo for rent, why can't they take out a personal loan to pay for the $15,000?  A $15,000 loan, based on a Google, says retirees can get a personal loan even on Social Security.  Even if they took out a loan for 15k and had an interest rate of 25% over ten years, their monthly payment is $350, still nearly half of their current 'rent'. 

As to the morality of taking care of your in-laws - I wouldn't do anything to materially damage your situation.  This is not an "emergency" or something where they need immediate, unforeseen help.  They are members of an expensive! hobby (smoking) and they retired earlier than their means permitted them to.  They've made their bed, they have to deal with it.  It's nice that you want to help, but people who can't help themselves are really hard to "save". 

[Baylee]

They couldn't afford to retire, but still could afford to smoke?  What's their monthly outlay on cigarettes compared to their monthly trailer rent? 

While $15k-$20k is a sizeable amount of money, in the grand scheme of things it's a drop in hat, and it's not going to make or break us. It may set us back a year or two, if anything. I'd be much more hesitant if we were talking $50k.

How many children to these parents have?  It sounds like your in-laws need to have a conversation with their kids and explain what's going on.  If it's 15-20k, spreading it over over all the children shouldn't be some onerous task, especially if you asked them to have it ready within a year (I doubt you'd get utilities and stuff out to the rural area quicker than a few months, anyways).  I skimmed the responses, but why can't the in-laws take out a loan to finance this? 

If they're currently paying $600/mo for rent, why can't they take out a personal loan to pay for the $15,000?  A $15,000 loan, based on a Google, says retirees can get a personal loan even on Social Security.  Even if they took out a loan for 15k and had an interest rate of 25% over ten years, their monthly payment is $350, still nearly half of their current 'rent'. 

As to the morality of taking care of your in-laws - I wouldn't do anything to materially damage your situation.  This is not an "emergency" or something where they need immediate, unforeseen help.  They are members of an expensive! hobby (smoking) and they retired earlier than their means permitted them to.  They've made their bed, they have to deal with it.  It's nice that you want to help, but people who can't help themselves are really hard to "save". 

I would be leery of them taking out their own loan because what happens if they default?  Will their children need to co-sign?  If they haven't been financially responsible up to this point, that's definitely not a good risk.  Financial irresponsibility is what started our need to help our parents and we knew right from the get-go that we weren't going to rely on them going forward.

[diaduit]

Well the adult child of the sister who is going to benefit (no qualms about that) could take out a 15k loan for the mobile and then once in writing, the mobile belongs to the grandchild when both grandparents are gone.  The gp could pay off maybe contribute to the loan of 300$ per month until its paid off.

[Baylee]

Well the adult child of the sister who is going to benefit (no qualms about that) could take out a 15k loan for the mobile and then once in writing, the mobile belongs to the grandchild when both grandparents are gone.  The gp could pay off maybe contribute to the loan of 300$ per month until its paid off.

I like this idea; however, I don't know that there was just one grandchild that was going to benefit.  So, if there are more than one, then this agreement could get messy too.

[Baylee]

my in laws have made the sibling with the land the one in charge of their finances at the end of life and they would inherent the property of the home.

What would sister do with the mobile home she inherited when they died (if they never moved down to her beforehand)?  Would she still move it down there?  Would she ask everyone to pitch in with the costs involved?

And was moving the mobile home down to her place her idea to begin with?

[Mushroom]

my in laws have made the sibling with the land the one in charge of their finances at the end of life and they would inherent the property of the home.

What would sister do with the mobile home she inherited when they died (if they never moved down to her beforehand)?  Would she still move it down there?  Would she ask everyone to pitch in with the costs involved?

And was moving the mobile home down to her place her idea to begin with?

The sister plans to rent it out to their adult children after my in laws die. The sister has 8 children from adults down to age 9 or so. With the cost of living rising, it's becoming very common in our area for adult children, including married children with kids, to continue living with their parents for some time.