MGTOW (and WGTOW?) vs. Single Vocation

[Severinus]

Sorry Dellery, but that was a classic case of TL;DR. I've noticed in this forum that when a subject touching on sex relations comes up, a few of the men can't resist the urge to start doling out based and redpilled advice. But I am just looking for an exploration of differences and overlap between M/WGTOW and non-consecrated virginity, especially in terms of the motivation for choosing that state. I imagine that finding the opposite sex too vexing has often played a part, even centuries before the MGTOW movement existed.

Before I stopped reading, I noticed you said something about needing an extremely good reason to choose not to marry. I'm not sure the bar is really so high, since, according to St. Paul, virginity is the higher state. My thinking is that while wanting more time to play vidya is not an adequate reason, any motivation that involves wanting time and freedom to master a legitimate pursuit, even a mundane one, would be sufficient.

[james03]

But I am just looking for an exploration of differences and overlap between M/WGTOW and non-consecrated virginity,

There is only superficial overlap as MGTOW is secular.

If you decide that you want to live a celibate life, then join a third order and take vows.  I believe there are options for Trads.

MGTOW was started by married men as an anti-communist movement.  Basically realize that the US is becoming marxist and separate yourself from it as much as possible.  Feminism was identified as the current attack vector against decent society.

Since then it has morphed.  If I were secular (for the logic challenged, note the premise) I'd be MGTOW and would never marry.  The great majority of secular women are not marriageable.  So get a vasectomy, and enjoy the free prostitution.

On the Trad side, there are a lot of feminine girls available who even know how to cook.  I actually observe the opposite of the secular world, a lot (I say that, but that's informal observation) of men would not be able to support a large Catholic family, and sadly, a noticeable number aren't very masculine.

[Severinus]

But I am just looking for an exploration of differences and overlap between M/WGTOW and non-consecrated virginity,

I actually observe the opposite of the secular world, a lot (I say that, but that's informal observation) of men would not be able to support a large Catholic family, and sadly, a noticeable number aren't very masculine.

This raises a different point. Even feminine trad girls, or if not them then their friends and family members, will expect men to have that conventional kind of ambition, and will rightly expect a husband to abandon less remunerative pursuits in order to better provide. But this kind of financial maintenance is part of the vexation for a certain type of man. If one's line of work or calling is not highly remunerative, and one doesn't wish to take the actions required to make enough money to keep a woman happy, this appears to be a legitimate factor in preferring the unmarried state. Does this have any overlap with MGTOW?

I agree that joining a third order, at least as a secular, would likely be proper for most unmarried Catholics.

[LausTibiChriste]

Dellery,

When are you and your wife expecting your next child?

[james03]

But I am just looking for an exploration of differences and overlap between M/WGTOW and non-consecrated virginity,

I actually observe the opposite of the secular world, a lot (I say that, but that's informal observation) of men would not be able to support a large Catholic family, and sadly, a noticeable number aren't very masculine.

This raises a different point. Even feminine trad girls, or if not them then their friends and family members, will expect men to have that conventional kind of ambition, and will rightly expect a husband to abandon less remunerative pursuits in order to better provide. But this kind of financial maintenance is part of the vexation for a certain type of man. If one's line of work or calling is not highly remunerative, and one doesn't wish to take the actions required to make enough money to keep a woman happy, this appears to be a legitimate factor in preferring the unmarried state. Does this have any overlap with MGTOW?

I agree that joining a third order, at least as a secular, would likely be proper for most unmarried Catholics.

Since MGTOW in its present iteration is purely secular, it's hard to talk about "overlap".  MGTOW recognizes that marrying a secular woman provides no additional benefit.  You can fornicate all you want today, so why get married?  Society even has no problem with having illegitimate kids today if you want kids.  So I really can't think of it in terms of "overlap".

Joining a third order and taking vows is a legitimate choice.  If someone stays single and doesn't take vows, then you are free to loaf around with zero responsibility.  I think if you are older, and after serious reflection realize you can't support a Traditional Catholic family, including homeschooling, so wife isn't going to work (better for the kids anyhow), then go the third order route.  It's a legit choice.

[james03]

If one's line of work or calling is not highly remunerative, and one doesn't wish to take the actions required to make enough money to keep a woman happy,

This part is troublesome.  Men take the required action.  Men are raised to endure suffering.  If you CAN get a job to support a family, and WON'T, that's a problem.  Possibly pride, possibly softness, but it's a problem.

For thousands of years men suffered, and our grandfathers wore Old Spice Aftershave, which is how we all came to be.

[Bataar]

If one's line of work or calling is not highly remunerative, and one doesn't wish to take the actions required to make enough money to keep a woman happy,

This part is troublesome.  Men take the required action.  Men are raised to endure suffering.  If you CAN get a job to support a family, and WON'T, that's a problem.  Possibly pride, possibly softness, but it's a problem.

For thousands of years men suffered, and our grandfathers wore Old Spice Aftershave, which is how we all came to be.

That's another reason I've pretty much given up. I don't believe I make enough money to support a family on my income alone. Not sure what I could do, at this point, to get a substantial salary increase so it looks like a no go.

[james03]

If you've aged out, and a realistic self evaluation tells you your chances are slim, go third order and reap the spiritual benefits of focusing on heaven.

I think the info available to Millennials in the day was a lot less.  I'm seeing more and more Gen Z waking up.  I don't know if it is >50%, but it is observably more than the Millennials.

[ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez]

Not sure what I could do, at this point, to get a substantial salary increase so it looks like a no go.

I fail all the time.  When I fail at something, instead of assuming that it just isn't for me, I try to find examples of people who have succeeded and to follow their example.

Most of the time, it's just a matter of persevering.

[Severinus]

If one's line of work or calling is not highly remunerative, and one doesn't wish to take the actions required to make enough money to keep a woman happy,

This part is troublesome.  Men take the required action.  Men are raised to endure suffering.  If you CAN get a job to support a family, and WON'T, that's a problem.  Possibly pride, possibly softness, but it's a problem.

For thousands of years men suffered, and our grandfathers wore Old Spice Aftershave, which is how we all came to be.

That's another reason I've pretty much given up. I don't believe I make enough money to support a family on my income alone. Not sure what I could do, at this point, to get a substantial salary increase so it looks like a no go.

It's not necessary to be a single income homeschooling family. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It will not stain your manhood, inevitably result in divorce, or be unendurably awful and morally warping for the children. So if you want to be married with a family then pursue that and accept the compromises that come along the way while trying to improve them. If you would rather do something else God-pleasing with your time, I think that's okay too.

[benedicite]

What is MGTOW?

[Acolyte]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

"Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW /ˈmɪɡtaʊ/) is an anti-feminist, misogynistic, mostly online community advocating for men to separate themselves from women and a society which they believe has been corrupted by feminism.[2] The community is a part of the manosphere, a collection of anti-feminist websites and online communities that also includes the men's rights movement, incels, and pickup artists.[3]"

I had no idea. I just googled it.

[james03]

^^^
Mostly correct for the current iteration, however it would be opposed to "misogyny" as that would be caring.  It is far worse.  If you want the savor of the current version it is men getting up and leaving the subway in the UK when an English woman was being attacked by a a head hunting moslem savage.  The men didn't hate the woman, they no longer cared.  And this made the press go nuts.  I'm sure you read about it.

Originally MGTOW was a reaction against jewish bolshevism by MARRIED men who were anarcho-capitalist.  It was indeed opposed to the feminism of Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, Rachel Adler, and Lilith Magazine, as this was a main vector of Cultural Marxism.

Here is the original manifesto.  Note it says nothing about avoiding women or avoiding marriage.  Note the date.

  https://no-maam.blogspot.com/2001/02/mgtow-manifesto.html

[Aethel]

Men prefer virginal women, or at least women who haven't slept with many other men, myself included, but I think those stats are BS. I've seen bad behavior from devout women that married young, just as all the others. Women have a dark-side, just like men, but women's dark-side seems to be more sexually oriented than men's.
This virginal good-girl that doesn't have a dark-side and is incapable of cheating on you doesn't exist. It's a fairy tale.

There's a reason why Lucifer is a loner whiney bitch boy outcast who cries about how unfair the world is, and has a whole showmanship about how much women he gets; meanwhile Lilith is an absolute whore who has sex with everything that moves.

Those are the deeper impulses and behaviors in the shadows that ruminate beneath the veneer of Heaven's politeness. What we show to the world after Sunday's Mass outside the door might not be the full picture.

In the above view you need fidelity to come from the woman instead of you securing it from her for yourself. Men have the power to keep our women faithful, but we really need to drop the nice-guy, man-cave-dwelling, complacent, comfort seeking, society says we're entitled to. We are not entitled to just go to work, be lazy afterwards, dicking around drinking beer, having some fairy-tale, sinless, virgin giving us her total commitment. The real world doesn't work that way. Furthermore, you can get commitment from any woman regardless of her past. If you're irreplaceable you won't get replaced. Most men are easily replaceable and get replaced. The only difference is that a woman with a high notch count will replace you faster.

We aren't mature enough to have the conversation that the Old Testament warrior stories, Greco-Roman and Germanic Pagan, and Medieval Chivalric views of manhood and womanhood were correct.

Men are expected to be conquerors. Women want to be conquered. If you aren't bold enough to conquer the dragon that is womanhood, she will devour you and spit out your bones.

From the vantage point of our polite feminist egalitarian society, you may have cringed at the above line. But modernity's post modern pseudo-Christian puritanism about romance and sexuality where casual Tinder hookups are okay but men and women aren't allowed to express what they really want in the other gender can go f itself.

There's a reason why in the past 30 years, increasing amounts of men and women are lonely over time, because our society gaslights both men and women about the nature of the other gender.

I am aware of the fact that not everyone is the same, but you can draw broad general trends about people's preferences. Women like taller men, etc.

[GMC]

^^^
Mostly correct for the current iteration, however it would be opposed to "misogyny" as that would be caring.  It is far worse.  If you want the savor of the current version it is men getting up and leaving the subway in the UK when an English woman was being attacked by a a head hunting moslem savage.  The men didn't hate the woman, they no longer cared.  And this made the press go nuts.  I'm sure you read about it.

Originally MGTOW was a reaction against jewish bolshevism by MARRIED men who were anarcho-capitalist.  It was indeed opposed to the feminism of Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, Rachel Adler, and Lilith Magazine, as this was a main vector of Cultural Marxism.

Here is the original manifesto.  Note it says nothing about avoiding women or avoiding marriage.  Note the date.

  https://no-maam.blogspot.com/2001/02/mgtow-manifesto.html

That blog links to another blog when you can read this article about modern MGTOW:

https://fedrz.wordpress.com/2013/08/16/man-going-his-own-way-mghow/

It seems that they surrendered and ended up against marriage and agains having children and only interacting voluntarily with women for sex.