Disturbing Article on Family Life

[LouisIX]

Even if I did cloth diaper, I wouldn't refrain from using wipes -- I've never been a fan of reusable cloths for cleaning, either.  Spray, wipe, chuck.

We don't run the most eco-friendly household in the history of the world, but I've yet to be convinced that we are required to.

Your household sounds like a very wasteful household.

I don't think we're atypical for our family size, etc.  We have three adults and a large dog living here, and the only household in our horseshoe with a smaller trash can is a single woman who lives alone (no pets even).  The only times we have had a hard time fitting our trash in the standard bin is when we moved in (the people who lived here before left a lot of trash in the yard, and my husband also removed some tile) and when we've thrown large parties.  Before our tenant moved in, we could have downsized our trash can down to the single woman's size, but we decided against it due to entertaining, etc.

Also, just for the record -- as I was posting, Erin edited her post to be even more insulting and to imply that I don't appreciate the Lord's blessings by adding this, "I was raised to believe that not being wasteful is one way we show God that we are grateful for His blessings."

It's not insulting to say using only disposable cleaning products is wasteful. If your conscience bothers you about it, learn to be less squeamish. It will serve you well if you ever adopt a kid and he throws up on you (which will happen at some point if you have a child. it's unavoidable).

I fail to see how this is a moral issue, the same as disposable diapers vs. cloth diapers.

[Bonaventure]

It looks like we have to babysit adults today.

[OCLittleFlower]

Even if I did cloth diaper, I wouldn't refrain from using wipes -- I've never been a fan of reusable cloths for cleaning, either.  Spray, wipe, chuck.

We don't run the most eco-friendly household in the history of the world, but I've yet to be convinced that we are required to.

Your household sounds like a very wasteful household.

I don't think we're atypical for our family size, etc.  We have three adults and a large dog living here, and the only household in our horseshoe with a smaller trash can is a single woman who lives alone (no pets even).  The only times we have had a hard time fitting our trash in the standard bin is when we moved in (the people who lived here before left a lot of trash in the yard, and my husband also removed some tile) and when we've thrown large parties.  Before our tenant moved in, we could have downsized our trash can down to the single woman's size, but we decided against it due to entertaining, etc.

Also, just for the record -- as I was posting, Erin edited her post to be even more insulting and to imply that I don't appreciate the Lord's blessings by adding this, "I was raised to believe that not being wasteful is one way we show God that we are grateful for His blessings."

It's not insulting to say using only disposable cleaning products is wasteful. If your conscience bothers you about it, learn to be less squeamish. It will serve you well if you ever adopt a kid and he throws up on you (which will happen at some point if you have a child. it's unavoidable).

My conscience doesn't bother me at all.  I've never understood the MO of "say something nasty to someone and when they point out it's nasty assume that they feel guilty."  Your posts often have a cruel tone, Erin, but maybe you don't realize it.  Or perhaps you do...

And as far as being puked on, etc, it's happened to me before.  And I cleaned it up with paper towels that I promptly chucked in the bin.  It's one thing to have to deal with something, and it's another to make dealing with it that much worse.  Using cloth diapers to save money would be, to me, like going down to Del Mar racetrack to muck stalls for $2/hour.  It just doesn't make sense for someone of our socioeconomic "class," for lack of a better word.  Yeah, sure, if you must -- but it isn't something I'd seek out if I could help it.  We're in a position to be able to afford the "little luxuries" that make life easier.

[erin is nice]

Okay, OCLF, everyone who uses cloth diapers and rags for cleaning is "lower class" than you! 

[james03]

I fail to see how this is a moral issue, the same as disposable diapers vs. cloth diapers.

It's not a moral issue.  Otherwise we'd shut off the heat and burn firewood.  If it saves time, it has value.  Attaching the value to it is up to the individual to assess.  If someone has a preference for cloth diapers, have at it.  It's just a preference that is amoral.

[OCLittleFlower]

Okay, OCLF, everyone who uses cloth diapers and rags for cleaning is "lower class" than you! 

So completely not what I said.

However, using laugher to express disagreement and to attempt to demean others?  I consider that pretty "low class" in terms of having good manners, etc.

[LouisIX]

Erin and OC, find a way to get along or stop posting on this thread.  We're all Catholics here, trying to live like Catholics as best we can.  Give each other the benefit of the doubt and at least make an attempt to hear each other in the best light.  You're arguing about how to clean one's house.  It doesn't have to be so contentious.

[MamaOwl]

Even if I did cloth diaper, I wouldn't refrain from using wipes -- I've never been a fan of reusable cloths for cleaning, either.  Spray, wipe, chuck.

We don't run the most eco-friendly household in the history of the world, but I've yet to be convinced that we are required to.

Your household sounds like a very wasteful household.

I don't think we're atypical for our family size, etc.  We have three adults and a large dog living here, and the only household in our horseshoe with a smaller trash can is a single woman who lives alone (no pets even).  The only times we have had a hard time fitting our trash in the standard bin is when we moved in (the people who lived here before left a lot of trash in the yard, and my husband also removed some tile) and when we've thrown large parties.  Before our tenant moved in, we could have downsized our trash can down to the single woman's size, but we decided against it due to entertaining, etc.

Also, just for the record -- as I was posting, Erin edited her post to be even more insulting and to imply that I don't appreciate the Lord's blessings by adding this, "I was raised to believe that not being wasteful is one way we show God that we are grateful for His blessings."

It's not insulting to say using only disposable cleaning products is wasteful. If your conscience bothers you about it, learn to be less squeamish. It will serve you well if you ever adopt a kid and he throws up on you (which will happen at some point if you have a child. it's unavoidable).

My conscience doesn't bother me at all.  I've never understood the MO of "say something nasty to someone and when they point out it's nasty assume that they feel guilty."  Your posts often have a cruel tone, Erin, but maybe you don't realize it.  Or perhaps you do...

And as far as being puked on, etc, it's happened to me before.  And I cleaned it up with paper towels that I promptly chucked in the bin.  It's one thing to have to deal with something, and it's another to make dealing with it that much worse.  Using cloth diapers to save money would be, to me, like going down to Del Mar racetrack to muck stalls for $2/hour.  It just doesn't make sense for someone of our socioeconomic "class," for lack of a better word.  Yeah, sure, if you must -- but it isn't something I'd seek out if I could help it.  We're in a position to be able to afford the "little luxuries" that make life easier.

But it's not equivalent. At $2 an hour, you'd have to spend 10 hours a week, outside of your home, cleaning up dirt and animal poo to make 80 per month.  I'm washing my children's diapers twice per week maybe spending an hour doing it. I usually fold them sitting on the floor with my kiddos or in the morning drinking coffee. I'll use cloth no matter how much money we make, because for us it isn't just about the money.

[OCLittleFlower]

Even if I did cloth diaper, I wouldn't refrain from using wipes -- I've never been a fan of reusable cloths for cleaning, either.  Spray, wipe, chuck.

We don't run the most eco-friendly household in the history of the world, but I've yet to be convinced that we are required to.

Your household sounds like a very wasteful household.

I don't think we're atypical for our family size, etc.  We have three adults and a large dog living here, and the only household in our horseshoe with a smaller trash can is a single woman who lives alone (no pets even).  The only times we have had a hard time fitting our trash in the standard bin is when we moved in (the people who lived here before left a lot of trash in the yard, and my husband also removed some tile) and when we've thrown large parties.  Before our tenant moved in, we could have downsized our trash can down to the single woman's size, but we decided against it due to entertaining, etc.

Also, just for the record -- as I was posting, Erin edited her post to be even more insulting and to imply that I don't appreciate the Lord's blessings by adding this, "I was raised to believe that not being wasteful is one way we show God that we are grateful for His blessings."

It's not insulting to say using only disposable cleaning products is wasteful. If your conscience bothers you about it, learn to be less squeamish. It will serve you well if you ever adopt a kid and he throws up on you (which will happen at some point if you have a child. it's unavoidable).

My conscience doesn't bother me at all.  I've never understood the MO of "say something nasty to someone and when they point out it's nasty assume that they feel guilty."  Your posts often have a cruel tone, Erin, but maybe you don't realize it.  Or perhaps you do...

And as far as being puked on, etc, it's happened to me before.  And I cleaned it up with paper towels that I promptly chucked in the bin.  It's one thing to have to deal with something, and it's another to make dealing with it that much worse.  Using cloth diapers to save money would be, to me, like going down to Del Mar racetrack to muck stalls for $2/hour.  It just doesn't make sense for someone of our socioeconomic "class," for lack of a better word.  Yeah, sure, if you must -- but it isn't something I'd seek out if I could help it.  We're in a position to be able to afford the "little luxuries" that make life easier.

But it's not equivalent. At $2 an hour, you'd have to spend 10 hours a week, outside of your home, cleaning up dirt and animal poo to make 80 per month.  I'm washing my children's diapers twice per week maybe spending an hour doing it. I usually fold them sitting on the floor with my kiddos or in the morning drinking coffee. I'll use cloth no matter how much money we make, because for us it isn't just about the money.

It was an exaggeration to make a point.  Sorry about that.   

I try to keep the washing machine noise to a minimum so I would have to count those hours as well to make a true fair comparison.  We've been meaning to install a laundry room door but it hasn't happened yet -- maybe someday.  If it were just the folding of the clean diapers I wouldn't care -- but there's usually at least one day in a week where I can't handle the rattle of the machines due to a low grade headache that's sound sensitive.

[Bonaventure]

Erin and OC, find a way to get along or stop posting on this thread.  We're all Catholics here, trying to live like Catholics as best we can.  Give each other the benefit of the doubt and at least make an attempt to hear each other in the best light.  You're arguing about how to clean one's house.  It doesn't have to be so contentious.

You are both grown women as well. This is not high school.

[Greg]

Walmart sells branded diapers for 20cents each and their own brand of wipes for 2cents

http://www.walmart.com/browse/baby/see-all-diapers/5427_486190_1101406_486194/

http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=wipes&ic=16_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=0

Then you have forgotten to factor in $1.20 per load for the washing in terms of energy, (assuming you wash in hot water and it is pretty unhygenic not to), detergent and wear and tear on the machine (which essentially is good for a number of cycles and typically wears out after that number).  About $1.00 per wash and $.20 in wear and tear.  At two loads per week that is $400 over the 2.5 years per child or $4000 over 10 children.

No cloth diapers are going to last 10 children either.  That is a myth.  After 3 or 4 children cloth diapers are going to be worn out from all that washing.

So figure on buying at least two sets perhaps 3 and the average person will spend a couple of thousand on the diapers.  Now the difference is only a few thousand.  I would not want to do all that washing and drying for a few thousand bucks over the lifetime of my family.  Motherhood is hard enough without asking my wife to waste yet more time doing laundry and drying it.  She already does at least one load a day just for our clothes and in the winter drying all of that is a hassle.

How did you calculate $1.20? Besides, going by your own number, it would come out to $312 & $3120 not $400 and $4,000. (260 loads in 2.5 years). I didn't forget to calculate it, I just didn't see a significant increase in energy after we switched, so I never did. And I didn't really care, since the cost, health and environmental benefit is huge, even including laundry cost.

Energy bills will increase with more kids whether you use cloth or not. More dishes, clothing laundry, showers, baths. The addition of 2 extra loads of laundry is insignificant. Energy costs vary greatly depending on where you live. For my area, I averaged about $0.41 per load in electric & water. That's with a top loader and using the dryer every time. I use a homemade powder detergent, which costs me about $20 per year. Pennies per load. So, I guess I could average $0.05 per load. I buy the expensive diaper detergent every once in a while, just because I like it. Luxury, not necessity. When I used it exclusively, I bought about 5 bags per year at $13 per bag. Our W&D were new when we moved in. If we still live here in 10 years, I'm sure it will be time for new machines whether we used cloth or not. The machines at our last place were older than me, and the best I've ever used.

Low end: $0.46 per load. 260 loads in 2.5 years = $119 (closer to $284 if you buy the expensive stuff all the time)
$1190-$2840 for 10 kids.

Of course all these diapers won't last 10 kids. Prefolds are cheapest and have a reputation of lasting "forever". I'm guessing 5 kids, then they can be used as burpees & rags. Like I said, I've spent less than $500 and our diapers are still in excellent condition after 3 years. I will need to supplement over the years and anticipate $1500 total in actual diaper cost. Even if I spent $5000 on 10 kids when including energy & detergent, that's a savings of $15,000. No matter how you want to spin it, it saves a large family a significant amount of money.

I don't see doing laundry as wasted time, it's just a part of my day. I really don't give it much thought. Dirty diapers in the wash. Throw in the dryer. Bring upstairs. Not any different than regular laundry. They can even stay in a clean basket and be pulled out as needed. Unlike clothes that have to be sorted, washed, sometimes ironed, folded, hung, put away.

But cost isn't the only factor, it's just one that most people like best, which is why I mentioned it first.  I enjoy using real diapers. I never run out. No blow outs. No rash. No chemicals. No trash. They're also cute and comfortable for the kids. Cost, health, environment all factor in. 10 kids in disposable diapers will produce over 40,000 lbs of trash. There are plenty of "hidden" energy cost in the production of disposables in the amount of wood, petroleum, chlorine and water waste per kid per year. There are chemicals in disposable diapers that have been banned in feminine products due to toxic shock and others that have been banned in several countries outside the US.

It seems like common sense to use cloth, especially for large families. I wish they were the norm. That said, I'm not really trying to convince you or anyone to switch. Just giving the reasons why I do, in hopes people will see that it is not difficult and the benefits are many.

There is no point in reasoning with a person who makes their own detergent.

I have instructed my wife to give up her gym class, spinning, and she is currently welding a bicycle powered machine to make paper pulp from a nearby forest where there are an abundance of fallen trees.  We intend to make our own homemade paper diapers and then compost them to grow vegetables.

Meanwhile I am converting all four toilets in my house to composting toilets and once finished will be back to chastise you all for using drinking quality water to flush your poo away.

[MamaOwl]

Not sure why you felt the need to reason with me. I don't care what you put on your babies' bums. Not sure why you care so much about what I put on mine. The amount of time that you assume goes into these things is ridiculous.

[Jayne]

Not sure why you felt the need to reason with me. I don't care what you put on your babies' bums. Not sure why you care so much about what I put on mine. The amount of time that you assume goes into these things is ridiculous.

Some people cannot handle people who make different choices than they do.  You can probably just ignore them. 

Thanks for your helpful and informative posts on this subject.  It is great to have you posting here.

[OCLittleFlower]

Not sure why you felt the need to reason with me. I don't care what you put on your babies' bums. Not sure why you care so much about what I put on mine. The amount of time that you assume goes into these things is ridiculous.

I think our buddy Greg is doing it for the lawls at this point.   :tongue:

And, I must confess, I laughed.

[The Harlequin King]

Not sure why you felt the need to reason with me. I don't care what you put on your babies' bums. Not sure why you care so much about what I put on mine. The amount of time that you assume goes into these things is ridiculous.

That's what I was thinking about when I read this whole thread. But Greg was just trolling you there.