Goodbye

Started by dellery, June 05, 2022, 03:53:19 AM

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queen.saints

#75
We are obliged to believe "I am the worst sinner." Me. Not you. Not we.

For all other people we are obliged to put the best possible interpretation on their actions and when forced to make a judgement, to only judge what we can know for a fact. I cannot find the sermon, but the The Cure of Ars said that to attribute bad motives to someone's good actions means one of two things.

1) we are God and can read his heart and see his is a hypocrite, like Jesus did
2) we are envious of their good qualities.

He said since it goes without saying that we are not God, and if we do not wish to be envious of others, then never again attribute bad motives to someone.

Objectively traditional Catholics are the ones who have the One True Faith and practice it the best. One could say, "Despite having such good examples in other traditional Catholics, I am the worst." but one can never say, because one can never know, that anybody else is a bad person but oneself.

I was taught that it is not pride to praise one's superiors, because they are an extension of God, and, therefore, by praising them we are praising Him. It can only be pride to praise our inferiors under our care, because they are to a certain extent an extension of us, like our children. Even then, Saint Don Bosco said we should try to never criticize our children in public, only privately and discreetly, causing them the least embarrassment.

Also, who are these imaginary traditional Catholics who are the worst people? Not the ones in my family, not in my school, not in my parish, not in my travels, nor online. In all these groups, some of the traditional Catholics are objectively the very best people I have ever met, who have given me the best example and who have taught me the most about God.


Most of the traditional Catholics priests are on a transfer cycle, like the ICK and the SSPX, so they kill themselves for their parishes driving hither and thither and working themselves sick and then never get to enjoy any of their labors before they have to move on to another parish. A purely selfless act for the greater glory of God. Not a way to make money. Our last pastor did this. He got a government grant to fix up the historic church, worked himself to the bone organizing the project, while he made time to give amazing pastoral help to so many people, and then he got transferred just as things would have gotten easier for him.
I am sorry for the times I have publicly criticized others on this forum, especially traditional Catholic religious, and any other scandalous posts and pray that no one reads or believes these false and ignorant statements.

queen.saints


https://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Sermons/JdVianey/Sermons.htm#THE%20TONGUE%20OF%20THE%20SCANDAL-MONGER


YOUR HEART IS BUT A MASS OF PRIDE

You will tell me, perhaps, that you never judge people except by what you see or after you have actually heard or been the witness of some action: "I saw him doing this action, so I am sure. I heard what he said with my own ears. After that, I could not be mistaken."

But I shall reply by telling you to begin by entering into your own heart, which is but a mass of pride wherein everything is dried up. You will find yourself infinitely more guilty than the person whom you are so boldly judging, and you have plenty of room for fear, lest one day you will see him going to Heaven while you are being dragged down to Hell by the demons." Oh, unfortunate pride," says St. Augustine to us, "you dare to judge your brother on the slightest appearance of evil, and how do you know that he has not repented of his fault and that he is not numbered among God's friends? Take care rather that he does not take the place which your pride is putting you in great danger of losing."

Yes, my dear brethren, all these rash judgments and all these interpretations come only from a person who has a secret pride, who does not know himself, and who dares to wish to know the interior life of his neighbour, something which is known to God alone. If only, my dear children, we were able to arrive at the stage of eradicating this first of the capital sins from our hearts, our neighbour would never do any wrong according to us. We should never amuse ourselves by examining his conduct. We should be content to do nothing else save weep for our own sins and work as hard as we could to correct them.

Contents

THE TONGUE OF THE SCANDAL-MONGER

Anyone who is unfortunate enough to come under the tongue of the scandalmonger is like a grain of corn under the grinding stone in a mill: he is torn, crushed, entirely destroyed. People like these will fasten onto you intentions that you never had; they will poison all your actions and your movements. If you have enough piety to wish to fulfil your religious duties, you are only a hypocrite, an angel in the church and a demon in the house. If you do any good or charitable works, they will think that this is just through pride and so that you may gain notice. If you are not worldly and not interested in worldly affairs, you are said to be odd and singular and to have no spirit. If you look after your own affairs carefully, you are nothing but a miser. Let me go further, my dear brethren, and say that the tongue of the scandalmonger is like the worm which gnaws at the good fruit -- that is, the best actions that people do -- and tries to turn all to bad account.

The tongue of the scandalmonger is a grub which taints the most beautiful of the flowers and upon them leaves behind it the disgusting trace of is own slime.

Contents

OH, EVERYONE SAYS SO!

Have you ever listened to someone speaking well of a young woman and recounting her good qualities? Someone else will certainly tell you that if this young woman has good qualities, she has plenty of bad ones, too.... She is frequenting the company of So-and-So, who does not have a good reputation.... I am very full sure they are not seeing each other for any good purpose.... And what about this other woman, who is always so well dressed and who keeps her children dressed up, too? .... She would do much better to pay her debts.... And then there is this other one: she always seems good and pleasant to everyone, but if you knew her as well as I do, you would have a different opinion.... She only puts on all these smiles as a blind.... Such and such a man is going to ask her to marry him, but if he asked my advice, I could tell him a few things he doesn't know....

"Who is that person going past?" asks someone else.

"Ah, well, if you don't know her, it's no great loss. I won't say any more about her. Keep out of her company -- it's a cause of scandal. Everyone thinks so. Listen, the very worst people are ones like her who put up to be good and holy. Anyway, it's always the way that the people who want to pass for virtuous or pious are the most wicked and spiteful."

"She must have done you some grave harm. Has she?"

"Oh, no! But you know well that they are all the same. I happened to be with one of my oldest acquaintances one day, and I discovered that he was quite a heavy drinker and a real blackguard."

"Maybe he did something which angered you?" the other will say.

"Ah, no, he never said anything to me which shouldn't have been said, but everyone thinks that of him."

"If it weren't you who told me, I would never have believed"

"When he's with people who do not know him, he knows very well how to act the hypocrite in order to make people believe that he is a very decent fellow. It's like one day I happened to be with So-and-So, whom you know very well -- he is another virtuous man. If he doesn't do anyone any harm, he doesn't deserve any credit for that. It is just that he is not in a position to do so. I assure you that I would not like to find myself alone with him."

"He did you some harm sometime perhaps?"

"He did not indeed, because I have never had anything to do with him."

"And how do you know, then, that he is so bad?"

"Oh, it's not hard to find that out. Everyone says he is. He is just like that one who was with you one day -- to hear him talk you would say that he is the most charitable man in the world and that he would never refuse anything to anyone who asked him for help. And all the time he would travel ten miles to gain two pennies. I assure you that nowadays you can't know people at all; you can't trust anyone. It is just the same with that fellow you were talking to just now. He looks after his affairs very well; he keeps up a good appearance always, and all his family look well turned out, too.... It's not so very difficult, really-he works at night, you know."

"Have you seen him taking anything, then?"

"Oh, no, I have never seen him taking anything. But I was told that one fine night he went back into his house well loaded with stuff. In any case, he has none too good a reputation."

And the speaker concludes: "I'm not saying that I have no faults myself, but I would be eternally sorry to be as worthless as some of these people."

In all of this you can see the notorious Pharisee, who fasts twice a week, who pays tithes of all he possesses, and who thanks God that he is not as the rest of men -- extortioners, unjust, adulterers! Here you can see this pride, this hatred, this jealousy!

Contents

ST. NICHOLAS AND THE THREE GIRLS

Tell me, now, my brethren, on what foundation are rash judgments and sentences based? Alas! They are based upon very slight evidence only, and most often upon what "someone said." But perhaps you are going to tell me that you have seen and heard this and that. Unfortunately, you could be mistaken in the testimony of both your sight and hearing, as you are going to see.... Here is an example which will show you, better than anything else can, how easily we can be mistaken and how we are nearly always wrong.

What would you have said, my dear brethren, if you had been living during the time of St. Nicholas and you had seen him coming in the middle of the night, walking around the house of three young girls, watching carefully and taking good care that no one saw him. Just look at that bishop, you would have thought at once, degrading and dishonouring his calling; he is a dreadful hypocrite. He seems to be a saint when he is in church, and look at him now, in the middle of the night, at the door of three girls who do not have a very good reputation! And yet, my dear brethren, this bishop, who would certainly have been condemned by you, was indeed a very great saint and most dear to God. What he was doing was the best deed in the world. In order to spare these young persons the shame of begging, he came in the night and threw money in to them through their window because he feared that it was poverty which had made them abandon themselves to sin.

This should teach us never to judge the actions of our neighbour without having reflected very well beforehand. Even then, of course, we are only entitled to make such judgments if we are responsible for the behaviour of the people concerned, that is, if we are parents or employers, and so on. As far as all others are concerned, we are nearly always wrong. Yes indeed, my brethren, I have seen people making wrong judgments about the intentions of their neighbour when I have known perfectly well that these intentions were good. I have tried in vain to make them understand, but it was no good. Oh! Cursed pride, what evil you do and how many souls do you lead to Hell! Answer me this, my dear brethren. Are the judgments which we make about the actions of our neighbour any better founded than those which would have been made by anyone who might have seen St. Nicholas walking around that house and trying to find the window of the room wherein were the three girls?

It is not to us that other people will have to render an account of their lives, but to God alone. But we wish to set ourselves up as judges of what does not concern us. The sins of others are for others, that is, for themselves, and our sins are our own business. God will not ask us to render an account of what others have done but solely of what we ourselves have done.

Let us watch over ourselves, then, and not torment ourselves so much about others, thinking over and talking about what they have done or said. All that, my dear brethren, is just so much labor lost, and it can only arise from a pride comparable to that of the Pharisee who concerned himself solely with thinking about and misjudging his neighbour instead of occupying himself with thoughts of his own sins and weeping for his own poor efforts. Let us leave the conduct of our neighbour on one side, my dear brethren, and content ourselves with saying, like the holy King David: Lord, give me the grace to know myself as I really am, so that I may see what displeases Thee, and how to correct it, repent, and obtain pardon.

No, my dear brethren, while anyone passes his time in watching the conduct of other people, he will neither know nor belong to God.
I am sorry for the times I have publicly criticized others on this forum, especially traditional Catholic religious, and any other scandalous posts and pray that no one reads or believes these false and ignorant statements.

orate

Maxim,  I did not imply passivity.  I meant that one does actively as much as God enables us to do.  What we do we do by His grace.

Diaduit,  Have you ever heard the saying, "But for the grace of God go I."  But for the grace of God, I could be that abortionist or pedofile.  Maybe had that abortionist or pedofile been given the graces I have, he would be higher in sanctity than I.  I use the most repulsive of sinners as an example of just how far anyone can fall.

We are all sinners.  Yes, we can judge the actions of others as either good or evil, but it is only God's grace that enables us do do good.  Even the movement to love Him is due to God's grace.
I love Thee, Jesus, my love.  Grant me the grace to love Thee always, and do with me what Thou wilt.

"Blame yourself, then change yourself.  That's where we all need to start."   Dr. Louis IX (aka "Dr. Walty")

diaduit

Quote from: orate on June 11, 2022, 10:46:44 AM
Maxim,  I did not imply passivity.  I meant that one does actively as much as God enables us to do.  What we do we do by His grace.

Diaduit,  Have you ever heard the saying, "But for the grace of God go I."  But for the grace of God, I could be that abortionist or pedofile.  Maybe had that abortionist or pedofile been given the graces I have, he would be higher in sanctity than I.  I use the most repulsive of sinners as an example of just how far anyone can fall.

We are all sinners.  Yes, we can judge the actions of others as either good or evil, but it is only God's grace that enables us do do good.  Even the movement to love Him is due to God's grace.

Orate , I say 'therefore by the grace of God go I ' when I see what others suffer either poverty, sickness, dysfunctional families, addictions etc....but spare me the nonsense that the poor abortionists or paedo are evil because of circumstance, its pure and simple love of the evil they lust for and no, I just would never do anything like that because it repulses me even if I was never born a Catholic. 
Westside story has a great song where the gangs are singing mocking Officer Krupke with these lyrics.

https://www.westsidestory.com/gee-officer-krupke

Miriam_M

Quote from: queen.saints on June 11, 2022, 05:46:31 AM
We are obliged to believe "I am the worst sinner." Me. Not you. Not we.

THIS.

There's nothing Catholic about the assigning of sin -- or the presumption of it -- to an entire group, including one of which we are a member.  It reveals a great lack of charity.

It may be valid to notice trends or temptations to certain vices among movements of all kinds, but it's much more likely that those who already tend to certain vices are attracted to movements which they believe enable those vices or protect them comfortably. 

For example, a couple of members of our parish were angry people long before tradition took hold as a defining feature of our location. This is evident in their own self-descriptions. How representative they are of "tradition as a whole" would be a supposition without evidence, even though it's clear that the increasing trajectory toward tradition here is a convenient refuge for them.

Objectively, the seven Capital Sins will always be Capital Sins, however any person regards any of them.  They are not less the causes of personal sin in certain environments, nor are they more excusable in certain environments.

Some apparent trends in vice and virtue, I have observed, seem to vary according to region.  In regions characterized by high levels of education (advanced degrees and such) and which include a large core of professionals, the temptation to pride in a parish-- or something I think is closer to complacency/self-satisfaction -- can be a prominent feature.  But that can be equally true in N.O. educated environments.  It's just that most trads don't travel equally in both circles, so there's no reliable way to compare.

Miriam_M

...and we have to remember that the most vocal members of any group do not necessarily represent the majority of a group, and even less so the entirety of it.  Sometimes, the most vocal people are the decided minority; it's just that they may be the most motivated and possibly the self-appointed salesmen/saleswomen of a movement.

Jayne

Quote from: Miriam_M on June 12, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
There's nothing Catholic about the assigning of sin -- or the presumption of it -- to an entire group, including one of which we are a member.  It reveals a great lack of charity.

Are you including homilies in this, as another poster did?  I think it is very appropriate for priests to talk about sins that are a general problem for their parishioners.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

MaximGun

#82
Quote from: Miriam_M on June 12, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
Quote from: queen.saints on June 11, 2022, 05:46:31 AM
We are obliged to believe "I am the worst sinner." Me. Not you. Not we.

THIS.

There's nothing Catholic about the assigning of sin -- or the presumption of it -- to an entire group, including one of which we are a member.  It reveals a great lack of charity.

It may be valid to notice trends or temptations to certain vices among movements of all kinds, but it's much more likely that those who already tend to certain vices are attracted to movements which they believe enable those vices or protect them comfortably. 

For example, a couple of members of our parish were angry people long before tradition took hold as a defining feature of our location. This is evident in their own self-descriptions. How representative they are of "tradition as a whole" would be a supposition without evidence, even though it's clear that the increasing trajectory toward tradition here is a convenient refuge for them.

Objectively, the seven Capital Sins will always be Capital Sins, however any person regards any of them.  They are not less the causes of personal sin in certain environments, nor are they more excusable in certain environments.

Some apparent trends in vice and virtue, I have observed, seem to vary according to region.  In regions characterized by high levels of education (advanced degrees and such) and which include a large core of professionals, the temptation to pride in a parish-- or something I think is closer to complacency/self-satisfaction -- can be a prominent feature.  But that can be equally true in N.O. educated environments.  It's just that most trads don't travel equally in both circles, so there's no reliable way to compare.

Part of it is that the world around you is so screwed up that your parish is like a haven of decency and common sense.  So it is natural to feel proud of that.  Young people at your parish with babies are married, not true in the world.  I know loads of people who have a wedding a decade or more after starting a family.  If you mention abortion nobody is going to rant at you in offense because they had an abortion and want to justify it, not true in the world.  Everywhere else you have to be ready to offend people for stating what their own grandparents believed.

I think Trads are mostly proud of their parish because it is the only bubble of sanity left around them.  If you had a life-raft, would you consider it just as a means to an end, a bundle of sticks and old barrels, or, because it was saving you from drowning would you name it, decorate it, love it.  The parish the local chapel is the life raft.  People are proud to be Trads because they know the alternative is much worse.

I have never found the priests' sermons about such 'pride' very compelling for this reason.  It's a raft.  I need it.  When the Roman Catholic Church recovers and offers my warm blankets, hot soup and a cabin I will take it.

Miriam_M

Quote from: Jayne on June 12, 2022, 03:34:02 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on June 12, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
There's nothing Catholic about the assigning of sin -- or the presumption of it -- to an entire group, including one of which we are a member.  It reveals a great lack of charity.

Are you including homilies in this, as another poster did?  I think it is very appropriate for priests to talk about sins that are a general problem for their parishioners.

I do not believe my earlier comments made reference to priests talking about trends in their own parish.  I have never heard a priest of a particular parish discuss the supposed sins of traditionalists as a group and as a movement, which he would not be in a position to know, since no priest is pastor or rector of all traditionalist Catholics or even most of them.  Priests cannot read souls from a distance; only God can do that -- although it's inaccurate to say He does so "from a distance."  Human beings are distant from each other's souls, while God is not.

Lay people on this thread were discussing the supposed sins of trads as a whole and as a movement. The generalizations are both inaccurate and uncharitable.

Bonaventure

Despite your uncharitable "farewell," may God be with you and keep you.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

Polymath

Quote from: MaximGun on June 05, 2022, 11:18:39 PM
What a fag!

A real man just leaves Dellery.  Doesn't bitch like a teenaged girl.

In his defense, I see many people here, ostensibly men, who frequently "bitch like a teenaged girl" because the Church leadership isn't giving them the traditional Church they want.  I find it discouraging, too.  I find traditionalists in general to be as effeminate as liberals.  Whether Dellery is this way too is beside the point.

I have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here.  As I see more fights being picked by liberal trolls, and more "Catholics" p!ssing and moaning about how everybody's woke, I'm wondering why I keep coming back for more.  At least the woke are honest about what they're about.

Still, when (not if) I finally leave, you won't know until some time has gone by and I haven't posted.

Heinrich

#86
Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: MaximGun on June 05, 2022, 11:18:39 PM
What a fag!

A real man just leaves Dellery.  Doesn't bitch like a teenaged girl.

In his defense, I see many people here, ostensibly men, who frequently "bitch like a teenaged girl" because the Church leadership isn't giving them the traditional Church they want.  I find it discouraging, too.  I find traditionalists in general to be as effeminate as liberals.  Whether Dellery is this way too is beside the point.

I have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here.  As I see more fights being picked by liberal trolls, and more "Catholics" p!ssing and moaning about how everybody's woke, I'm wondering why I keep coming back for more.  At least the woke are honest about what they're about.

Still, when (not if) I finally leave, you won't know until some time has gone by and I haven't posted.

I wouldnt notice one bit if you left. Actually, with iinsults like this, I would be quite satisfied. Go eat your fish and chips with your Henry.8 buds.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

The Curt Jester

Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 09:58:30 AMI have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here.

Emphasis mine.

This is a good example of why people need to take a step back and realize that interaction on a forum is not like interaction in person.  From reading posts on this forum, you don't know enough about people to be able to make that claim.  It's just hyperbole to make your point.  Most people here don't even post that often.  You're making an assumption based on a few posters posting quite frequently.

This is why online people who have never met in person cannot be friends.  You don't know them, they don't know you, and you really can't say that much about them.
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

Julio

^^I think virtual friends is okay at least on the basis of the concept and idea that the forum members share like the subjects on Catholicism. I agree with the rest of those that you stated.

Prayerful

Quote from: The Curt Jester on December 18, 2022, 02:12:43 PM
Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 09:58:30 AMI have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here.

Emphasis mine.

This is a good example of why people need to take a step back and realize that interaction on a forum is not like interaction in person.  From reading posts on this forum, you don't know enough about people to be able to make that claim.  It's just hyperbole to make your point.  Most people here don't even post that often.  You're making an assumption based on a few posters posting quite frequently.

This is why online people who have never met in person cannot be friends.  You don't know them, they don't know you, and you really can't say that much about them.

People who at least interface via video chat or online games with voice chat can very much become real friends. Some marriages have even resulted from online gaming and also enduring friendships when people meet.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.