Should we accept this wisdom of the Talmud?

[Aethel]

So genuine question, and I mean this with no offense:

How is the above ^ witchcraft, but sprinkling water with salt in order for it to be made with a purifying supernatural water which burns demons, reciting Latin chants over bread and wine in order to transform their very essence, and chalking doorways with the names of the three kings of Jesus during Epiphany for protection, not witchcraft?

Many Jews allege that the concepts of the Eucharist and holy water were all appropriated from Greco-Roman paganism, particularly the Dionysian cults. As such, they would allege that Catholics are communing with demons via witchcraft when they perform these rituals.

[james03]

let him take the after-birth of a black she-cat, the offspring of a black she-cat, the first-born of a first-born, let him roast it in fire and grind it to powder, and then let him put some into his eye, and he will see them.

What Catholics do come from God.  Think of something as simple as incense.

What the Talmud is prescribing is witch craft.  They don't even claim these techniques come from God.

edit:  And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and the holy plate upon the mitre,  7 And thou shalt pour the oil of unction upon his head: and by this rite shall he be consecrated.

[james03]

The priest therefore shall offer it, and set it before the Lord.  17 And he shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and he shall cast a little earth of the pavement of the tabernacle into it.  18 And when the woman shall stand before the Lord, he shall uncover her head, and shall, put on her hands the sacrifice of remembrance, and the oblation of jealousy: and he himself shall hold the most bitter waters, whereon he hath heaped curses with execration.  19 And he shall adjure her, and shall say: If another man hath not slept with thee, and if thou be not defiled by forsaking thy husband's bed, these most bitter waters, on which I have heaped curses, shall not hurt thee.  20 But if thou hast gone aside from thy husband, and art defiled, and hast lain with another man:

 21 These curses shall light upon thee: The Lord make thee a curse, and an example for all among his people: may he make thy thigh to rot, and may thy belly swell and burst asunder.

[Aethel]

let him take the after-birth of a black she-cat, the offspring of a black she-cat, the first-born of a first-born, let him roast it in fire and grind it to powder, and then let him put some into his eye, and he will see them.

What Catholics do come from God.  Think of something as simple as incense.

What the Talmud is prescribing is witch craft.  They don't even claim these techniques come from God.

The Jews don't claim the Talmud comes from God?

Isn't the Talmud basically the Summa for the Jews?

[Baylee]

No.

Yep.  Simple as that.

[Gardener]

So genuine question, and I mean this with no offense:

How is the above ^ witchcraft, but sprinkling water with salt in order for it to be made with a purifying supernatural water which burns demons, reciting Latin chants over bread and wine in order to transform their very essence, and chalking doorways with the names of the three kings of Jesus during Epiphany for protection, not witchcraft?

Many Jews allege that the concepts of the Eucharist and holy water were all appropriated from Greco-Roman paganism, particularly the Dionysian cults. As such, they would allege that Catholics are communing with demons via witchcraft when they perform these rituals.

That's because they are basically dollar store Pharisees who don't actually know what pre-Rabbinic Jews would have known. Post-rejection of the Messiah, they had to clamor away from the truth and invented a new religion. The Eucharist is entirely Jewish (actual) in origin as a concept and its typology, and the Essenes predicted it. The Sadducees were worthless, and the Pharisees only got part of things right. Brant Pitre's talk on the Jewish roots of the Eucharist explicate how this is. John Bergsma's talks on the Dead Sea Scrolls flesh out some of the gaps that allowed the Essenes to be the most correct sect at the time of Christ as concerns messianic predictions.

[james03]

The Jews don't claim the Talmud comes from God?

Isn't the Talmud basically the Summa for the Jews?

You asked a question, I answered it.  We observe sacramentals because God Himself instructed us in their use in the Torah.  The Babylonian Talmud is a demon book, so we ignore it.  That's how it is different.  There's your answer.  Furthermore God does not care about water or oil.  It is done for our benefit.

And I'll add, go back and review the Torah quotes I provided.  They are coming from God.  The Talmud quote about a cat appears to be some pharisee rabbi giving his advice.

[Melkor]

So genuine question, and I mean this with no offense:

How is the above ^ witchcraft, but sprinkling water with salt in order for it to be made with a purifying supernatural water which burns demons, reciting Latin chants over bread and wine in order to transform their very essence, and chalking doorways with the names of the three kings of Jesus during Epiphany for protection, not witchcraft?

Many Jews allege that the concepts of the Eucharist and holy water were all appropriated from Greco-Roman paganism, particularly the Dionysian cults. As such, they would allege that Catholics are communing with demons via witchcraft when they perform these rituals.

It's not witchcraft it's the opposite. If you believe in good and evil, and you believe the evil side has the ability to commune with their demons and summon spells and whatnot over the good...wouldn't it make sense that God would give his servants means of defending themselves against these evils?

But you're an agnostic; I don't know what you believe.

[Aethel]

So genuine question, and I mean this with no offense:

How is the above ^ witchcraft, but sprinkling water with salt in order for it to be made with a purifying supernatural water which burns demons, reciting Latin chants over bread and wine in order to transform their very essence, and chalking doorways with the names of the three kings of Jesus during Epiphany for protection, not witchcraft?

Many Jews allege that the concepts of the Eucharist and holy water were all appropriated from Greco-Roman paganism, particularly the Dionysian cults. As such, they would allege that Catholics are communing with demons via witchcraft when they perform these rituals.

It's not witchcraft it's the opposite. If you believe in good and evil, and you believe the evil side has the ability to commune with their demons and summon spells and whatnot over the good...wouldn't it make sense that God would give his servants means of defending themselves against these evils?

But you're an agnostic; I don't know what you believe.

Sure, but this argument assumes that the spiritual practices within Roman Catholicism are synonymous with the good side. It's a presumption that compares Jewish spiritual praxis against the Catholic spiritual praxis gold standard.

I'm pointing out that threads like this are wasteful and aren't compelling because Jews operate from a completely different presumption - their system is the gold standard by which they compare other religions. Calling them superstitious and participants in witchcraft may be compelling for Catholics who already accept that belief system - Catholicism - but it isn't compelling for Jews who could make a similar accusation.

Although I'm not even sure the Talmud is even endorsing that practice, it just seems to be stating some "known" practice that perhaps some Rabbis have dealt with. But even assuming it is endorsing that practice, it isn't a compelling argument. The Talmud has horrific archaic stuff (the way they describe non-Jews as soulless beasts of the earth, for example; and the Jesus verses are ridiculously depraved), but I don't find this "superstitious" "magical" stuff that compelling when, from any other paradigm, Catholic sacramentals and sacraments can be viewed as equally superstitious and magical.
Here's an example: Jewish Talmudic version of Satan, Samael.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael

As guardian angel and prince of Rome, he is the archenemy of Israel. By the beginning of Jewish culture in Europe, Samael had been established as a representative of Christianity, due to his identification with Rome.[11][7]: 263 

That was one of the main selling points of Anglicanism in England, reminder. Catholics are superstitious and magical, they drowned witches to check them for magic and mocked Galileo.

I mean, a Catholic priest repeats a magical formula and commands God to turn bread into himself; and if you wear this consecrated scapular, you'll go to Heaven. A snobby Jew could easily say "Stupid goy, only uncivilized animals could be prone to such superstitions".



I am aware I have overstayed my welcome in this thread, but there's something about the snickering in this thread that really compelled me to respond, because it came across as somewhat intellectually dishonest and condescending in a way that repels a lot of people.

Plus, I don't think CatholicStudyAttempt is posting here in good faith. He fluctuates between this caricaturized extreme of Traditional Catholic piety and Neoliberal politics and anti-white hatred, that unless he's a Latino or something (where fluctuating superstition tends to be the norm), I wonder if he created this thread to make a point.

[Baylee]

Plus, I don't think CatholicStudyAttempt is posting here in good faith. He fluctuates between this caricaturized extreme of Traditional Catholic piety and Neoliberal politics and anti-white hatred, that unless he's a Latino or something (where fluctuating superstition tends to be the norm), I wonder if he created this thread to make a point.

Considering your comments about what Jews think of Catholic worship (which I understand), imagine a similar thread about Catholic wisdom on a Jewish discussion forum. Would it even be there?  Catholics shouldn't even be asking the question in the OP. The answer is obviously no, if one truly believes that the Catholic Faith is the one, true faith.  Anything that comes after the public revelation of the Apostles should be ignored and avoided. 

[james03]

I'm pointing out that threads like this are wasteful and aren't compelling because Jews operate from a completely different presumption - their system is the gold standard by which they compare other religions.

You are all over the place.  Who claimed it is "compelling", whatever that means?  Yes, on a Catholic Forum the Catholic Faith is the gold standard.

But you really don't even need that standard.  A rabbi advising using cat afterbirth is something you'd expect in Wicca.  Note also that there are many arcane rituals in the Torah, but none of us would call it witchcraft as they were imposed on the jews by God.  This cat stuff is not from God.  It's witch craft, the craft of witches.

You make no sense.

[james03]

The Jews don't claim the Talmud comes from God?

Actually they don't.  It's basicly a discussion among pharisee rabbis that occurred in Babylon (the whore of Babylon).  In Babylon they also created their bastardized Hebrew Old Testament, and Kabbalah. 

[Chestertonian]

let him take the after-birth of a black she-cat, the offspring of a black she-cat, the first-born of a first-born, let him roast it in fire and grind it to powder, and then let him put some into his eye, and he will see them.

What Catholics do come from God.  Think of something as simple as incense.

What the Talmud is prescribing is witch craft.  They don't even claim these techniques come from God.

The Jews don't claim the Talmud comes from God?

Isn't the Talmud basically the Summa for the Jews?

I don't think there is a direct "Catholic version" of the Talmud.  Depending on the type of Jew you ask,he will say the Talmud is a source of wisdom and law, a piece of family history, a caboodle of nonsense that is irrelevant in the modern era and so on.  Jews aren't a monolith.

Jews don't have the concept of infallibility.  In fact, even in my ultra conservative shul, we were encouraged to probe and examine Scripture--not just blindly accepting everything you see in religious texts.  If that were true there would be a lot more Jews walking around killing cats and grinding cat placentas, but that's not something you see everyday here in Jewish Land aka Brooklyn.

If I had to give you a Catholic parallel for the Talmud it would be a collection of sayings by various saints and church fathers.  As we know, just because someone was an early church father doesn't mean they were right about everything.  In fact they sometimes disagreed, you have doctors of the church sometimes contradicting each other and saying weird things, like how St Thomas Aquinas believed that boy babies have no soul for 40 days and girls for 80 days.  We now know that's not true.

Are you familiar with the concept of a "midrash?" It is a narrative that is not meant to replace Scripture but is meant to embellish and bring scripture to life.  You see, we Christians have our stained glass and our icons, and our Franco zeffarelli adaptations of scriptural stories but in Jewish culture, you cannot visually represent Hashem.  He can't even have vowels in His name. 

Midrash is a way of reading Jewish scripture in a creative and expansive way.   Just like there is no direct parallel to the Talmud in Catholicism, there is no parallel to Jewish biblical exegesis either. 

In my shul we learned that there are 4 ways we read the Torah:
Pashat: straight from the text, literal.  Accept the text as fact
Remez: read symbolically... allegorically.   Identify themes, symbols, relationships
D'rash: midtashic study...probing the text
Sod: mystical reading, praying the scriptures, finding hidden meaning

different texts, different methods of storytelling require different approaches to discerning their meaning.

I looked up this verse and in thegreater context, using the Brisker derech I learned when I was growing up in shul, the text seems to be saying that God is present in the synagogue during minyan,and that good abd evil are ever present spiritual realities.  The historical context is that the temple was destroyed and these Jewish rabbis are trying to figure out how to be Jewish without temple sacrifices, so here we read that even though the temple is gone, God is still with his people when they pray, and evil is something to always be vigilant (although please don't kill any cats to try to test that theory)

The sad thing is that as the Jewish people were trying to adapt to life without God's direct presence in the temple, Christians were encountering Jesus in the Eucharist.  Our scripture tells us that when two or three are gathered in our Lord's name then He is with us.  I've always loved that passage.  In the Jewish faith, you need 10 adult men for a minyan.  More inclusive, progressive Jews include women as part of a minyan but that's not the Judaism I was raised with.  But Jesus only said two or three.  Not just men but anyone. 

If you're going to read the Talmud I recommend getting a commentary so you know the history... If you don't know Hebrew or Aramaic I recommend reading it with someone who does

[Chestertonian]

So genuine question, and I mean this with no offense:

How is the above ^ witchcraft, but sprinkling water with salt in order for it to be made with a purifying supernatural water which burns demons, reciting Latin chants over bread and wine in order to transform their very essence, and chalking doorways with the names of the three kings of Jesus during Epiphany for protection, not witchcraft?

Many Jews allege that the concepts of the Eucharist and holy water were all appropriated from Greco-Roman paganism, particularly the Dionysian cults. As such, they would allege that Catholics are communing with demons via witchcraft when they perform these rituals.

That's because they are basically dollar store Pharisees who don't actually know what pre-Rabbinic Jews would have known. Post-rejection of the Messiah, they had to clamor away from the truth and invented a new religion. The Eucharist is entirely Jewish (actual) in origin as a concept and its typology, and the Essenes predicted it. The Sadducees were worthless, and the Pharisees only got part of things right. Brant Pitre's talk on the Jewish roots of the Eucharist explicate how this is. John Bergsma's talks on the Dead Sea Scrolls flesh out some of the gaps that allowed the Essenes to be the most correct sect at the time of Christ as concerns messianic predictions.

I can't speak for all Jews here but in my experience, the Jewish people I have known over the years (whom I love very much) just don't seem to give Christianity all that much consideration.  Most Jews seem to have a concept of Christianity that is very homogenized and dependent on where you live.  For example a Texan Jew's understanding of Christianity will probably be heavily influenced by evangelical culture, whereas Catholicism is more prominent on the east coast, but in superficial ways.  I know I never gave Catholic theology much consideration until my wife took me to my first Mass and I heard the words, "Blessed are you Lord God of all creation" and thought, "now where have I heard that before?"

Funny, I'm not sure I would have made that connection if I were at a Latin Mass. 

[Instaurare omnia]

Woohoo!!! Chestertonian's back!!!  ("It's a Brooklyn thing. You wouldn't understand"...unless you do.)

L'hitraot*, over and out.

* (Ivrit, not Gaelic "liathriod", diadult!)