BVM and Dark night of the soul

[angelcookie]

What is written about, if any, the dark night of the soul and Blessed Mother Mary? Do those who've gone through it or are in it experience abandonment from Theotokos too?

[John Lamb]

They are not abandoned by her at all, but there are times when they may feel abandoned, because they do not feel any sweetness in prayer.

St. John of the Cross talks about about two dark nights: of the senses, and of the spirit. In the first night, the soul becomes detached from sensible sweetness in prayer, and begins to experience a more pure knowledge and love. In the second night, the soul becomes detached from all self-will and reaches perfect union with God. Both are painful though, and the second more than the first, and there are times when the soul feels abandoned by God, but God, and the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the angels & saints, are definitely still there - it just feels like they aren't.

Those who go through the dark night will have a greater knowledge of and union with Our Lady.

Also, the dark night is not necessarily completely dark throughout. Sometimes God sends consolations. So for example, for someone going through the dark night of the spirit and suffering in that state for a long time, exhausted, it might be that they have a vision or hear a word or feel the presence of Our Lady and spend a few hours, days, or weeks in a state of recollection and peace, before returning to the purifying suffering of the dark night.

[Chestertonian]

what I always wonder is what if the dark night never ends?  are there some souls for whom the dark night goes on for the rest of their life with no consolation this side of heaven?

what if it never gets better and you're just stuck there

[John Lamb]

what I always wonder is what if the dark night never ends?  are there some souls for whom the dark night goes on for the rest of their life with no consolation this side of heaven?

what if it never gets better and you're just stuck there

Generally no. The dark night is a transitional phase, not an end in itself. The dark night does not have NO consolations, it's just that they are few and far between. God never tempts us above our strength. Some saints do suffer all the way up to the their deaths, because God has decided, or they have voluntary chosen themselves, to suffer for the salvation of souls.
Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange talks about this here: http://www.christianperfection.info/tta100.php

Chestertonian, from what I've read from you, it doesn't sound like you're experiencing the dark night of the soul that theologians talk about. You are suffering from bodily illness and scruples, which is something else. You need to be patient and relax more, stop being so hard on yourself; cope with the suffering you already have, instead of wanting to make yourself suffer more & more.
You seem to be going through vicious cycles where you blame yourself and feel anxious for not being holy enough or being able to live up to the "standards of traditional Catholics" (a fantasy), and then pitying yourself and wondering why God has put you in such a situation. God doesn't want you to worry so much. Striving for holiness in your situation does not mean doing penances and receiving frequent holy communion; it just means being patient and offering up your suffering to God. Stop beating yourself up so much and then feeling sorry for yourself; be patient and still, and let God heal you, reflecting on and trusting in and His mercy & love and not worrying about His anger & justice.
I suspect if you are not experiencing any joy or comfort, it's mainly because you are not allowing yourself to feel any joy or comfort, from an appallingly misconceived notion that being a (traditional) Catholic means being miserable and making yourself suffer unbearably. Excessive anxiety over your sinfulness and excessive desire to do penance is straight from the devil: "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death." This "Godly sorrow" that St. Paul talks about is gentle, peaceful, and loving; this "worldly sorrow", on the other hand, is vicious, full of anxiety, and leads to self-hatred and despair.

[Kaesekopf]

What John said. 

The dark night is on the way to purgation and a very holy life.  From what you've said in other posts, I sorely doubt you're near that (considering your reticence over Communion and confession).  No ill meant, just an honest comment.

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[angelcookie]

I understand, I was just asking. I think I am still at the first step of conversion, even if at one point I thought I was reverted complete. When the saints speak about taking on suffering to relieve Jesus' suffering, where is BVM; She suffers too... Who helps her... The Church militant that takes on His suffering that also eases her suffering? The taking on suffering as spiritual purification and perfection that then also helps us to merit Heaven? How does one not become disordered in the pursuit of spiritual perfection like one obsessed with a perfect body? Why the sharing of this painful energy as a way for redemption and uniting this to Christ? Why would he take on suffering and sin to redeem us for a chance to get to Heaven (and not be separated from God forever,) with the next step for us to have to carry the cross and be crucified like Christ was in the way God wills? To stay in a state of Grace and receive Communion for the process? Because this is His will until the Second Coming?

[Kaesekopf]

I understand, I was just asking. I think I am still at the first step of conversion, even if at one point I thought I was reverted complete. When the saints speak about taking on suffering to relieve Jesus' suffering, where is BVM; She suffers too... Who helps her... The Church militant that takes on His suffering that also eases her suffering? The taking on suffering as spiritual purification and perfection that then also helps us to merit Heaven? How does one not become disordered in the pursuit of spiritual perfection like one obsessed with a perfect body? Why the sharing of this painful energy as a way for redemption and uniting this to Christ? Why would he take on suffering and sin to redeem us for a chance to get to Heaven (and not be separated from God forever,) with the next step for us to have to carry the cross and be crucified like Christ was in the way God wills? To stay in a state of Grace and receive Communion for the process? Because this is His will until the Second Coming?

Ignore my comment about knowing things about you.  I read the thread a few days ago and lost track of posters.

Badmin.

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[Miriam_M]

he taking on suffering as spiritual purification and perfection that then also helps us to merit Heaven?

We can only merit Heaven if we are purified.  Unpurified souls cannot partake of the Beatific Vision because they have not the spiritual eyes to absorb it.  It has to do with capacity of the soul as well as the realm of the divine.

How does one not become disordered in the pursuit of spiritual perfection like one obsessed with a perfect body?

People obsessed with a perfect body are motivated by Vanity.  Spiritual perfection is the opposite of vanity because the end is not self-glorification but God's glorification.  Spiritual perfection cannot be attained by focusing on one's self but only on God.  We don't "pursue" spiritual perfection in the same manner as someone pursues physical perfection.  With the former, it is God's work; the latter is man's work.  The way to achieve spiritual perfection is to get out of the way and let God do the work, but in order for His work to be accomplished, we need to let ourselves be united to Christ, intentionally, by suffering in a holy manner (silently, in prayerful union with Him, joyfully, and humbly).  By joyful is not meant being in denial about the pain but being joyful about our desire to join in Christ's suffering.

Why the sharing of this painful energy as a way for redemption and uniting this to Christ? Why would he take on suffering and sin to redeem us for a chance to get to Heaven (and not be separated from God forever,) with the next step for us to have to carry the cross and be crucified like Christ was in the way God wills?

Because we need to let our capital vices be crucified to achieve union with Him.

[John Lamb]

When the saints speak about taking on suffering to relieve Jesus' suffering, where is BVM; She suffers too... Who helps her... The Church militant that takes on His suffering that also eases her suffering?

Jesus & Mary are perfectly happy in heaven, but we can be united mystically to their Passion by joining our suffering with theirs: Jesus was aware at the hour of His Passion of all those who would benefit from His sacrifice and would join their sacrifice with His; so by uniting ourselves today with Jesus' Passion we mystically participate in it and strengthen Jesus in His Passion, even across the barrier of time. This applies to Mary as well because she was perfectly united with Jesus in His Passion.
Also, although today Jesus & Mary are perfectly happy in heaven, we can relieve their suffering in the sense that: the suffering of the souls on earth and in purgatory whom they love, is their own suffering as well; so by relieving the suffering of the souls on earth and in purgatory (by work or prayer), we can be said to be relieving the suffering of Jesus & Mary also. This is why Our Lord says in the gospel that He will recognise those who have fed the poor as those who have fed Him.

Yes, Mary and Jesus are united; so where Jesus suffers, Mary suffers also; where Jesus loves, Mary loves also, etc.
Spiritually, they are more or less inseparable. By loving Jesus and relieving His suffering, you love Mary and relieve her suffering; and by loving Mary and relieving her suffering, you love Jesus and relieve His suffering. It works both ways.

How does one not become disordered in the pursuit of spiritual perfection like one obsessed with a perfect body?

Very good question. This happens to a lot of people, if not most people, especially early on. What you must do is rely on God's grace and not on your own strength; if you rely on grace, you will advance humbly and peacefully at God's pace; if you rely on your own strength, you will become impatient with your faults and impatient with God for not taking away your faults immediately. Read the first chapters of St. John of the Cross's The Dark Night of the Soul, where he goes over this.

Why the sharing of this painful energy as a way for redemption and uniting this to Christ? Why would he take on suffering and sin to redeem us for a chance to get to Heaven (and not be separated from God forever,) with the next step for us to have to carry the cross and be crucified like Christ was in the way God wills?

Another good question. You can frame it like this: why aren't we made immediately happy & perfect the moment we are baptised? The answer is that we are called to imitate Christ and suffer not just for our own salvation, but for the salvation of our neighbour as well; Christ's didn't ascend to His Father the moment of His baptism - His baptism marked the beginning of His labours. Before He ascended, He had to lay down His life on the cross.
Moreover, the more suffering we take on for the love of God & neighbour, the greater glory and happiness we will have in the next life.
Some souls do die almost straight after baptism, and go straight to heaven. But they shine least brightly in heaven, because they made the least sacrifice. The whole meaning of the cross and of the Christian life in this world, is the transformation of suffering into joy through love. So rather than being a burden, this opportunity to offer sacrifice is the greatest opportunity that we will draw treasure from for all eternity. God will not forget a single sacrifice. It's said that the angels only envy mankind for one reason: that they can't suffer for the love of God as we can.

[Chestertonian]

What you must do is rely on God's grace and not on your own strength; if you rely on grace, you will advance humbly and peacefully at God's pace; if you rely on your own strength, you will become impatient with your faults and impatient with God for not taking away your faults immediately.

this is something that always makes me confused.  We're not supposed to rely on our own strength, but isn't it by our own strength that we acquire virtues and become holy provided that He gives us the graces to do so...  but what if He doesnt want to give us graces because our will is not in line with His will, and He abandons us to our sins

Moreover, the more suffering we take on for the love of God & neighbour, the greater glory and happiness we will have in the next life.
Some souls do die almost straight after baptism, and go straight to heaven. But they shine least brightly in heaven, because they made the least sacrifice. The whole meaning of the cross and of the Christian life in this world, is the transformation of suffering into joy through love. So rather than being a burden, this opportunity to offer sacrifice is the greatest opportunity that we will draw treasure from for all eternity. God will not forget a single sacrifice. It's said that the angels only envy mankind for one reason: that they can't suffer for the love of God as we can.

I think a lot about this a lot because we lost our daughter who died the same day she was born and baptized.  On one hand, she didn't do the penances that some do in this life.  On the other hand, she died without any original or actual sin on her soul.  I always assumed she was much better off than someone who had more chances to do penance but offended God many times. 

Also, doesn't God forget about our sacrifices after we commit a mortal sin?  doesn't that knock us back to meriting nothing?

what I always wonder is what if the dark night never ends?  are there some souls for whom the dark night goes on for the rest of their life with no consolation this side of heaven?

what if it never gets better and you're just stuck there

Generally no. The dark night is a transitional phase, not an end in itself. The dark night does not have NO consolations, it's just that they are few and far between. God never tempts us above our strength. Some saints do suffer all the way up to the their deaths, because God has decided, or they have voluntary chosen themselves, to suffer for the salvation of souls.
Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange talks about this here: http://www.christianperfection.info/tta100.php

Chestertonian, from what I've read from you, it doesn't sound like you're experiencing the dark night of the soul that theologians talk about. You are suffering from bodily illness and scruples, which is something else. You need to be patient and relax more, stop being so hard on yourself; cope with the suffering you already have, instead of wanting to make yourself suffer more & more.
You seem to be going through vicious cycles where you blame yourself and feel anxious for not being holy enough or being able to live up to the "standards of traditional Catholics" (a fantasy), and then pitying yourself and wondering why God has put you in such a situation. God doesn't want you to worry so much. Striving for holiness in your situation does not mean doing penances and receiving frequent holy communion; it just means being patient and offering up your suffering to God. Stop beating yourself up so much and then feeling sorry for yourself; be patient and still, and let God heal you, reflecting on and trusting in and His mercy & love and not worrying about His anger & justice.
I suspect if you are not experiencing any joy or comfort, it's mainly because you are not allowing yourself to feel any joy or comfort, from an appallingly misconceived notion that being a (traditional) Catholic means being miserable and making yourself suffer unbearably. Excessive anxiety over your sinfulness and excessive desire to do penance is straight from the devil: "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death." This "Godly sorrow" that St. Paul talks about is gentle, peaceful, and loving; this "worldly sorrow", on the other hand, is vicious, full of anxiety, and leads to self-hatred and despair.

this is an interesting idea.... of "Godly sorrow" vs worldly sorrow havent thought about it tththtthat way. 

before

it is hardforme to imagine how sorrow can ever be gentle, especially if it is the sort of pain that is quite severe.  it is sorrow after all...  and God allows some people to

I do rememmer once a
I have heard some traditional catholic sermons/priests talk about self hatred as if it is a good thing, a necessary thing.  Our lord talks about the necessity to hate ones life.... and lots of spiritual writers describe pride as "self love."

but then you have the folks here in the suscipe singles subforum talking about the necessity of confidence for a man.  But what do any of us really have to be confident about? we are all just dust.  we deserve hell.

Ihave also heard it said that a soul conformed to Gods willl hates what God hates, and loves what God loves.  So if we hate ourselves, thatmust mean Godhates us?"  of if he really does love us wouldnt it be a good thing to love yourself,inso much as you love whatGod loves about yourself


Mental illness makes it hard to tell the difference

[Sempronius]

Hi Chestertonian, the saints that talked about hating oneself were actually loved by the people they had around them so their struggle against self-love was much more intense. I dont think we modern people will ever feel that intensity because there is no unity, no sympathy and love among us in the first place. Imagine living in a society where all the people go to mass (TLM that is) ,the priest is sound and orthodox (maybe one priest has a secret misstress but that is the temptation for alpha-male priests), and the parish folks consists of chaste women with many children and the males are manly.. and from those circumstances saints are born. so we modern folks need a different approach to life

[John Lamb]

What you must do is rely on God's grace and not on your own strength; if you rely on grace, you will advance humbly and peacefully at God's pace; if you rely on your own strength, you will become impatient with your faults and impatient with God for not taking away your faults immediately.

this is something that always makes me confused.  We're not supposed to rely on our own strength, but isn't it by our own strength that we acquire virtues and become holy provided that He gives us the graces to do so...  but what if He doesnt want to give us graces because our will is not in line with His will, and He abandons us to our sins

It's not as though God gives us grace, and we do whatever we want with it (good or evil), like grace is the fuel of the car but we are the driver. Grace itself, co-operating with and in our free-will, drives us to the right place. It's not we that draw good out of grace by our own power; rather, it's grace itself that draws good out of the grace already planted in us: "Therefore, neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth: but God that giveth the increase." Grace is the seed, water, and the flower, i.e. the beginning, middle, and end of all our good actions, without which grace we can do nothing.

God always gives us sufficient grace, so it's a matter of not actively resisting His grace.

I think a lot about this a lot because we lost our daughter who died the same day she was born and baptized.  On one hand, she didn't do the penances that some do in this life.  On the other hand, she died without any original or actual sin on her soul.  I always assumed she was much better off than someone who had more chances to do penance but offended God many times. 

It depends. The Holy Innocents are better off than Judas, who did not repent, but not Peter, who did.

Also, doesn't God forget about our sacrifices after we commit a mortal sin?  doesn't that knock us back to meriting nothing?

If you imagine all our merits as treasure in a chest, mortal sin throws away the key so that you cannot access the treasure anymore, but repentance gives back the key, so that the treasure itself is not lost.

this is an interesting idea.... of "Godly sorrow" vs worldly sorrow havent thought about it tththtthat way. 

before

it is hardforme to imagine how sorrow can ever be gentle, especially if it is the sort of pain that is quite severe.  it is sorrow after all...  and God allows some people to

I do rememmer once a
I have heard some traditional catholic sermons/priests talk about self hatred as if it is a good thing, a necessary thing.  Our lord talks about the necessity to hate ones life.... and lots of spiritual writers describe pride as "self love."

The proud love themselves because of their merits, and hate themselves because of their lack of merits. Either way, the object of their love or hatred is themselves.
When the scriptures say that we should hate ourselves, it absolutely does not mean this self-loathing the prideful have because of their ambition for greater glory. Hating ourselves spiritually means making little of ourselves and our merits, without ambition for glory, with presumption in our own strength. You can tell the difference between proud hatred of one's self and holy hatred of one's self, because proud self-hatred leads to wrath, spite, envy, and self-destruction; whereas humble self-hatred leads to contrition, meekness, peace, and contentment.

but then you have the folks here in the suscipe singles subforum talking about the necessity of confidence for a man.  But what do any of us really have to be confident about? we are all just dust.  we deserve hell.

You'll have to ask them about that. I disagree with their manner of speaking.

Ihave also heard it said that a soul conformed to Gods willl hates what God hates, and loves what God loves.  So if we hate ourselves, thatmust mean Godhates us?"  of if he really does love us wouldnt it be a good thing to love yourself,inso much as you love whatGod loves about yourself

Yes, we must love ourselves in humble and grateful way, giving thanks to God. Self-love in a sinful way means being puffed up and making much of oneself. But humble self-love means loving everything good in ourselves that God has given to us, recognising it as God's gift and giving thanks. It is false humility not to love or give thanks for the good God has created in us.