How can there be valid but gravely illicit Sacraments in the RCC?

[Livenotonevil]

So, I have a question, that perhaps might've been asked before, but would like clarification from the Roman position.

In both the Tradition of East and West, it's absolutely clear, from merely reading the text of the Roman Canon and the text of the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, that the Angelic Host play a pivotal role in the Transformation of the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

From the Traditional Roman Canon (Supplices te rogamus):
"We humbly pray thee, Almighty God, to command these Gifts to be
borne by the hand of thy holy Angel to thine Altar on high, in the
presence of thy divine Majesty, that whosoever shall partake at this altar of the most sacred
Body and Blood of thy Son, may be filled with all
grace and heavenly benediction."

From the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom:
"We who mystically represent the Cherubim,
and who sing to the Life-Giving Trinity the thrice-holy hymn,
let us now lay aside all earthly cares
that we may receive the King of all,
escorted invisibly by the angelic host."


Even the High Liturgical Anglicans have their own Cherubic Hymn:
"Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
And with fear and trembling stand;
Ponder nothing earthly minded,
For with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descending
Comes our homage to demand."
...
"Rank on rank the host of heaven
Spreads its vanguard on the way,
As the Light of light descendeth
From the realms of endless day,
Comes the powers of hell to vanquish
As the darkness clears away."


Given that this is the case, that it is through the assistance of the Angels of God that aid in the Divine Liturgy and the Consecration of the Gifts, how can it be possible that a Consecration occurs validly but in a gravely immoral manner in the Church?

It would be different if it was consecrated morally and then abused, but considering the very act of an illicit Sacrament is a mortal sin, how would this work?

So, let's say an Orthodox priest consecrates the Gifts, and commits a gravely immoral sin, and they become the Body and Blood of Christ. Why would Angels assist in the Liturgy, in the performance of an evil act? How could sinless Angels of God be able to help commit a mortal sin?

Would demons take the place of the Angels? If that's the case, how can demons take captive the Eternal, Living, Resurrected Christ?

[james03]

Because the Sacrifice is always moral.  Profaning it is the sin.  The sinners who do this pay the price, as Corinthians tells us.

[Livenotonevil]

Okay.

But if someone has suspended jurisdiction, making it sinful to perform a Sacrament, why would the Angels disobey the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, and assist a schismatic in performing an action against the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church in that time and location?

Wouldn't it be against the RCC's Church will, and therefore, in the opinion of the RCC, against Divine Will for the angels to perform such an action?

[james03]

It is the Church's will that such sacraments be valid.  Jesus told the Pope that what he declared on Earth would be bound in heaven.

[Patriarch]

It'd be Donatism if we had to worry if a Eucharist was valid everytime we suspected the priest of having committed a sin. Is the Eucharist dependent upon God's power (His Grace) or upon a man's worthiness? God's grace works even through unworthy and sinful men; else, how could our sins be remitted or forgiven if not by Grace? Ergo, a similar concept applies with respect to the Eucharist: it is for the communicants that Christ gives us His true Flesh and Blood by His mercy and grace to eat, no due to any person unworthiness on the part of a sinner. His power isn't inhibited by our sins.

[Livenotonevil]

It's not about the sinfulness of the Priest, but the very act which is sinful.

So, the Pope has the authority to command angels to sin? That's rather bold.

[james03]

So, the Pope has the authority to command angels to sin? That's rather bold.

Poor logic.  The angels aren't sinning.

[Michael Wilson]

I believe you are asking what if a Priest in Mortal sin were to confect a sacrament, for example say Mass?  The act is sinful for the priest but the sacrament is holy, because Our Lord is the principal offerer of the sacrifice and of the other sacraments.

[John Lamb]

From the Traditional Roman Canon (Supplices te rogamus):
"We humbly pray thee, Almighty God, to command these Gifts to be
borne by the hand of thy holy Angel to thine Altar on high, in the
presence of thy divine Majesty, that whosoever shall partake at this altar of the most sacred
Body and Blood of thy Son, may be filled with all
grace and heavenly benediction."

From the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom:
"We who mystically represent the Cherubim,
and who sing to the Life-Giving Trinity the thrice-holy hymn,
let us now lay aside all earthly cares
that we may receive the King of all,
escorted invisibly by the angelic host."

From these texts I do not get the impression that the angels play a "pivotal" role in the Consecration itself. It's my understanding that the angels merely assist in the offering of the sacred Host, not in the Consecration/Transubstantiation itself. I don't see how the angels could play an integral role in the Consecration itself, seeing as only God has the power to transform bread and wine into His own substance, and He does this through the ministration of the priest who has been ordained for this very purpose. The angels, as I understand it, merely offer, together with the priest and the faithful, the Body & Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ once it has been made present on the altar, to be "borne to thine Altar on high" - i.e. the angels, in a mystical way, take the Sacred Species once consecrated to God's heavenly altar, and I suppose beforehand they prepare the altar on earth for this action.

So in answer to your question, I do not believe that the angels assist at the Masses/Liturgies of schismatics, seeing as these are an unworthy offering in God's sight, so there is no reason for the angels to assist in presenting them to God in heaven. The angels at these celebrations must only assist in the most material way, e.g. the guardian angels carrying out their ordinary function of protecting their clients' souls and offering their private prayers to God.
Even if the schismatic priest and faithful subjectively speaking are in good faith, objectively speaking it's impossible for the Eucharistic Sacrifice that is celebrated apart from the unity of Catholic Church to be a worthy or pleasing offering in God's sight; so the angels can only offer to God the devout prayers and sentiments of these persons, but they cannot offer to God these Eucharistic Species illicitly consecrated, despite being valid.

Would demons take the place of the Angels?

No, not likely. I imagine that when the schismatic priest orders the angels to take part in the Mass/Liturgy, the angels merely turn their noses up and refuse to attend or perform the requested action. The Eucharist remains on the altar here on earth and it never enters heaven, because it is unworthy to be offered to God. Not in itself, of course, seeing as in itself it is the Adorable Body & Precious Blood of Christ, but seeing as it is being offered outside its proper context - the charity & unity of the One Catholic Church - it is not being offered in a worthy manner: the passenger is holy but the vehicle is unholy, so it never arrives at its heavenly destination.

[John Lamb]

I will add though, as a further speculation to what I said above, that perhaps God will accept the Mass / Divine Liturgy of those who are in material schism and not in formal schism. I wouldn't know what the boundaries of this are however. Is it possible that a professed Eastern Orthodox priest not in communion with Rome is, in God's eyes, only a material and not a formal schismatic, and that the Divine Liturgy celebrated by him is accepted by God in heaven? Maybe, I don't know. But I can't see the Eucharist of a formal schismatic being accepted.

[Daniel]

It is Christ Himself who offers the sacrifice. The priest who celebrates the Mass does so in persona Christi. It doesn't matter whether that particular priest is a schismatic or a heretic since it is Christ, not that particular priest, who offers the sacrifice. (Same thing with hearing confession and granting absolution.)

From the Traditional Roman Canon (Supplices te rogamus):
"We humbly pray thee, Almighty God, to command these Gifts to be
borne by the hand of thy holy Angel to thine Altar on high, in the
presence of thy divine Majesty, that whosoever shall partake at this altar of the most sacred
Body and Blood of thy Son, may be filled with all
grace and heavenly benediction."

Not sure about those other quotes, but the "Angel" in this quote refers to Christ.

[Kreuzritter]

Okay.

But if someone has suspended jurisdiction, making it sinful to perform a Sacrament, why would the Angels disobey the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, and assist a schismatic in performing an action against the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church in that time and location?

Wouldn't it be against the RCC's Church will, and therefore, in the opinion of the RCC, against Divine Will for the angels to perform such an action?

For Catholic humans. Since when are angels intended or bound by canon law?

[GloriaPatri]

It is Christ Himself who offers the sacrifice. The priest who celebrates the Mass does so in persona Christi. It doesn't matter whether that particular priest is a schismatic or a heretic since it is Christ, not that particular priest, who offers the sacrifice. (Same thing with hearing confession and granting absolution.)

From the Traditional Roman Canon (Supplices te rogamus):
"We humbly pray thee, Almighty God, to command these Gifts to be
borne by the hand of thy holy Angel to thine Altar on high, in the
presence of thy divine Majesty, that whosoever shall partake at this altar of the most sacred
Body and Blood of thy Son, may be filled with all
grace and heavenly benediction."

Not sure about those other quotes, but the "Angel" in this quote refers to Christ.

Does anyone know if calling Christ "Angel" have any connection to the "Angel of the Lord" that appears in the OT? From what I understand some theologians believe those appearances to be pre-incarnation appearances of Christ