St. John Cantius bites the dust

Started by james03, December 27, 2021, 08:58:23 PM

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lauermar

#15
Half of the masses are in Latin (until 1/25/22), not "mostly Novus Ordo." Misinformation.

https://www.cantius.org/full-liturgy-schedule

The order isn't being relocated. Nobody is being reassigned as far as we know. All that is conjecture.
"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)

james03

QuoteHalf of the masses are were in Latin

FIFY
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Jayne

I have the impression that St. John Cantius is similar to the Toronto Oratorians with which I am familiar.  These Oratorians, since Summorum Pontificum was promulgated, have offered both the TLM and NO.  Before that they offered the NO in Latin.  This is the typical edition on which the vernacular Masses are based. 

They used the most tradititional options available within the NO (e.g. for the Eucharistic prayer).  There were no "Extraordianry Ministers", no Communion in the hand, and everyone received while kneeling.  While this approach did not eliminate all of the problematic issues with the NO, it went a long way toward doing so.

I would not be surprised if St. John Cantius does something similar if they can no longer offer the TLM.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

drummerboy

Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 27, 2021, 09:22:59 PM
QuoteWith all of this in mind, I dose by recalling the insightful observation of Pope Benedict XVI when he issued Summorum Pontificum: "The surest guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring cut the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal."
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Blase Card. Cupich
Archbishop of Chicago

Quote from: james03 on December 27, 2021, 09:13:22 PM
Sad thing is that the beautiful church will close down if they go.
They sank millions of dollars into restoring that old church. It will be a painful lesson for them. I wish them well as they were one of the first trad. organizations I contacted back when I was still a cautious and timid NOer/trad-lite, afraid to stray from communion with the Vatican.

We're still waiting for the spiritual richness and theological depth to come out after 50 years......

lauermar

Quote from: james03 on December 28, 2021, 08:11:04 AM
QuoteHalf of the masses are were in Latin

FIFY

I said are, not were, until 1/25/22
"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)

lauermar

#20
Quote from: drummerboy on December 28, 2021, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 27, 2021, 09:22:59 PM
QuoteWith all of this in mind, I dose by recalling the insightful observation of Pope Benedict XVI when he issued Summorum Pontificum: "The surest guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring cut the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal."
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Blase Card. Cupich
Archbishop of Chicago

Quote from: james03 on December 27, 2021, 09:13:22 PM
Sad thing is that the beautiful church will close down if they go.
They sank millions of dollars into restoring that old church. It will be a painful lesson for them. I wish them well as they were one of the first trad. organizations I contacted back when I was still a cautious and timid NOer/trad-lite, afraid to stray from communion with the Vatican.

We're still waiting for the spiritual richness and theological depth to come out after 50 years......

Yeah, just keep on waiting for hell to freeze over. You'd rather deny than be aware of the marches downtown and the pro-life teens standing all day in the freezing cold in DC just like Nicholas Sandman. My daughter was one of them during her high school years.

That church will still be standing long after some of you have left it. Francis has tempted me to leave many times, but as of right now I'm staying.
"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)

trentcath

Quote from: lauermar on December 28, 2021, 10:57:10 AM
Quote from: drummerboy on December 28, 2021, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 27, 2021, 09:22:59 PM
QuoteWith all of this in mind, I dose by recalling the insightful observation of Pope Benedict XVI when he issued Summorum Pontificum: "The surest guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring cut the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal."
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Blase Card. Cupich
Archbishop of Chicago

Quote from: james03 on December 27, 2021, 09:13:22 PM
Sad thing is that the beautiful church will close down if they go.
They sank millions of dollars into restoring that old church. It will be a painful lesson for them. I wish them well as they were one of the first trad. organizations I contacted back when I was still a cautious and timid NOer/trad-lite, afraid to stray from communion with the Vatican.

We're still waiting for the spiritual richness and theological depth to come out after 50 years......

Yeah, just keep on waiting for hell to freeze over. You'd rather deny than be aware of the marches downtown and the pro-life teens standing all day in the freezing cold in DC just like Nicholas Sandman. My daughter was one of them during her high school years.

That church will still be standing long after some of you have left it. Francis has tempted me to leave many times, but as of right now I'm staying.

I wasn't aware marches and pro-life teens were going to get us into heaven?  :huh: More seriously, yes they are good things but good things I could have in common with an evangelical, a muslim, a jew or even an atheist. They don't have much, explicitly, to do with the faith and that's what is needed to get us where we want to go. The ends don't justify the means, the good results of pro-life marches and teens don't justify sacrilege or any of the other many sins the NO allows or encourages, and inevitably any good fruits will likely be rotten. We can see this from Francis's many ambigous statements regarding pro-life and other moral matters.

In any event, in your situation, I am certainly not encouraging you not to go to SJC. If your conscience is well formed and you believe it requires you to go there that is where you must go, neither I nor anyone else on here knows your personal situation only you, your family and your priest do. Although inevitably an SJC priest is not going to tell you that you shouldn't attend the NO, but you could find an SSPX one for example. In my situation I could not go because my, I believe, well formed conscience clearly tells me attending even a reverent NO would be sinful for the reasons others have outlined.

Miriam_M

Quote from: Kaesekopf on December 27, 2021, 10:05:47 PM
Quote from: Maximilian on December 27, 2021, 09:37:32 PM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 27, 2021, 09:22:59 PM
They sank millions of dollars into restoring that old church.

Was it ever completely restored from the fire?

I think you are confusing St John Cantius with the Shrine of Christ the King.  Cantius is run by the Canons Regular of St John Cantius, the Shrine by ICKSP. 

(And no, they haven't restored the Shrine - progress is slow.)

This is correct.  News about the Shrine's restoration is announced regularly at Masses and bulletins of the Institute. There are regular fundraisers for it.

Prayerful

They have to have more Latin Novus Ordos like for the Easter Triduum. It's a variant on the Roman implementation of TC. It isn't great, but the sky won't fall down yet.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

GiftOfGod

Quote from: lauermar on December 28, 2021, 07:24:04 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on December 27, 2021, 10:07:04 PM
The priests are priests of the Archdiocese of Chicago.  They can simply be re-assigned.

They are not a traditional organization.  Their daily office is that of the Liturgy of the Hours, and the majority of their Masses (and the more 'prime-time' time slots) are all Novus Ordo.
Considering all the blood, sweat, tears and prayers it took to restore the parish, the snide comment that the church "isn't traditional" is diabolical rubbish.
Kaesekopf made factual observations. You can't refute them, so you go with emotional appeals "look at how they made the church look how it used to!", "look at the Life Teens!", etc.

Quote from: lauermar on December 28, 2021, 10:57:10 AM
You'd rather deny than be aware of the marches downtown and the pro-life teens standing all day in the freezing cold in DC just like Nicholas Sandman. My daughter was one of them during her high school years.
Trentcath took the words right out of my mouth. Many Prots kids are pro-life. It's a virtue, yes, but it has phuq all to do with whether or not a church is traditional. I've been to churches where there is ZERO, NADA, ZIP activities before or after the TLM (not even coffee and donuts). I'd rather my family go to that over a half NO/half trad place with an active social life.
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.


Kaesekopf

#25
Quote from: lauermar on December 28, 2021, 07:54:04 AM
Half of the masses are in Latin (until 1/25/22), not "mostly Novus Ordo." Misinformation.

https://www.cantius.org/full-liturgy-schedule

The order isn't being relocated. Nobody is being reassigned as far as we know. All that is conjecture.

As I said, the majority of the Masses offered by SJC are NO (go ahead, count them).  Besides that, the "prime time" Mass slots on Sunday go to the NO, as well.  Who wants to attend a TLM at 730a or 1230p?  If they love the TLM so much, why isn't a Sunday 9am or 11am timeslot given to the TLM? 

ETA:  No one said anything about re-located.  Calm down and read my post.  I said that, since they are simply priests of the Archdiocese of Chicago, they could be reassigned.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Kaesekopf

Quote from: lauermar on December 28, 2021, 07:24:04 AM
The parish was in Novus Ordo ruins in the 1970s before Fr. Phillips sought to restore tradition by starting up the Canons Regular with the seminary. The building was falling apart all over itself. It took a miracle to get the loan, raise donations, get permission from Francis George, and thousands of donated hours by local artisans to restore everything. This church was an oasis in a decade where Latin masses were few and far-between. Considering all the blood, sweat, tears and prayers it took to restore the parish, the snide comment that the church "isn't traditional" is diabolical rubbish.

The restoration was beautiful, church attendance soared back again, and the parish thrived. Annual street processions with BVM, the Teen Life groups with the yellow balloons, retreats and ministries returned. The Canons would say Latin mass all day long if it was permitted. I don't know if the original indult permitted that. Cupich certainly did not want exclusively Latin even before the TC. The Canons ARE tough. They know when to hold, and when to fold. If they fought Cupich head on, they would be shut down and boarded up.

The loss of Fr. Phillips to complaints of inappropriate sex behavior caused the parish much anguish. Under Fr. Caswell's leadership, morale has been restored...until Pope Francis. I do not know what the future of the seminary will be. Some students are still hanging on. Cupich is **not** reassigning priests, as long as they follow the rules of the TC. I suspect that the tourists who come there only for Latin mass will no longer bother to travel that distance, and revenue will decline. The parishioners will still continue to support these priests, as I will. I don't believe the parish will "bite the dust." Hopefully, God will provide.

What seminary?  The men of the Canons Regular are sent to Mundelein Seminary, to be formed alongside other Novus Ordo seminarians.  What good is a priestly formation if it's according to the Novus Ordo?

It's not traditional.  It might have offered the TLM, but that does not make one traditional.  Offering the TLM is the minimum expectation of a priest.  If they were traditional, their daily Office would be according to traditional books, not books cooked up slapdash in the 1960s/1970s! 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Kaesekopf

Quote from: Jayne on December 28, 2021, 08:57:25 AM
I have the impression that St. John Cantius is similar to the Toronto Oratorians with which I am familiar.  These Oratorians, since Summorum Pontificum was promulgated, have offered both the TLM and NO.  Before that they offered the NO in Latin.  This is the typical edition on which the vernacular Masses are based. 

They used the most tradititional options available within the NO (e.g. for the Eucharistic prayer).  There were no "Extraordianry Ministers", no Communion in the hand, and everyone received while kneeling.  While this approach did not eliminate all of the problematic issues with the NO, it went a long way toward doing so.

I would not be surprised if St. John Cantius does something similar if they can no longer offer the TLM.

Jayne, you and I know full well that the issues with the NO (vis a vis the TLM) is not focused on the externals (options, EMHCs, etc) but rather the prayers themselves.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Kaesekopf

Quote from: lauermar on December 28, 2021, 10:57:10 AM
Yeah, just keep on waiting for hell to freeze over. You'd rather deny than be aware of the marches downtown and the pro-life teens standing all day in the freezing cold in DC just like Nicholas Sandman. My daughter was one of them during her high school years.

That church will still be standing long after some of you have left it. Francis has tempted me to leave many times, but as of right now I'm staying.

Lauermar, you're one of the more histrionic posters here, so I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded? 

Besides, what have those marches downtown wrought?  Chicago is still a leftist haven. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

GiftOfGod

Quote from: Kaesekopf on December 29, 2021, 03:59:58 PM
Quote from: Jayne on December 28, 2021, 08:57:25 AM
I have the impression that St. John Cantius is similar to the Toronto Oratorians with which I am familiar.  These Oratorians, since Summorum Pontificum was promulgated, have offered both the TLM and NO.  Before that they offered the NO in Latin.  This is the typical edition on which the vernacular Masses are based. 

They used the most tradititional options available within the NO (e.g. for the Eucharistic prayer).  There were no "Extraordianry Ministers", no Communion in the hand, and everyone received while kneeling.  While this approach did not eliminate all of the problematic issues with the NO, it went a long way toward doing so.

I would not be surprised if St. John Cantius does something similar if they can no longer offer the TLM.

Jayne, you and I know full well that the issues with the NO (vis a vis the TLM) is not should not be focused on the externals (options, EMHCs, etc) but rather the prayers themselves.
FTFY
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.