Interest in traditional Catholic support group for fasting

[Jayne]

Over the last couple of years I have been dealing with health issues that are responding to changes in diet and lifestyle.  I have already reversed my pre-diabetic diagnosis and made progress on reversing fatty liver by following the carnivore diet.  I want to start incorporating more fasting because that is known to be effective in reversing NAFLD.

There has been a lot of buzz over the last few years around fasting for health, although, as usual, the "experts" disagree.  One says never fast more than three days.  Another says the maximum benefits start at three days.  One says to drink coffee while fasting.  Another says drink nothing but water without even taking mineral supplements.  Another says the mineral supplements are essential.  And so on.

While I can find lots of resources on the physical aspects of fasting, it is more difficult to research the spiritual  There are a lot of non-Catholic sources that I do not trust. I know that historically there is a long tradition of fasting within Catholicism.  In the past, Catholics regularly fasted twice a week on Wednesday and Friday, as well as other fast days throughout the year.  I'm thinking that following this traditional schedule of fasting is going to be at least as good as trying to figure out which "expert" I should follow.

But I know little about the spiritual aspects of fasting and even less about combining the spiritual and physical.  I am pretty sure there ought to be a way to do both at once since human beings are embodied souls.

Anyhow, I am wondering if anyone is interested in forming some sort of support group for  fasting on traditional fast days.  We could pool our knowledge on the subject and encourage each other.  If there is enough interest, perhaps KK would give us a childboard here on the forum.

Also, if anyone knows about good Catholic sources of information on fasting, please let me know about them, whether or not you have any interest in a group.

[Xavier]

I think it's a great idea. Wednesdays and Fridays to start off sound good.

I was just reading of one of Pope St. Leo's writings on fasting (page 49)

"Days of Fast in December - [Pope Saint] Leo extols the benefits of fasting (prescribed by both the Old and New Testaments) in a number of his sermons. In Sermon 19.2 he refers to the spring fast of Lent, the summer fast after Pentecost, the autumn fast in the seventh month (September) and the winter fast in the tenth month (December). Leo upholds the necessity of bodily and spiritual fasts, stressing that abstinence from bodily fasts must be completed with prayer and almsgiving.

He also enumerates works of mercy which must accompany fasting: defending widows, taking care of orphans, consoling mourners, making peace between factions, welcoming travelers, relieving the oppressed, clothing the naked, tending to the sick (Serms 13.1(2) and 16.1) These public fasts derive a great beauty from the strength communicated to individuals when all pursue a common goal".

Sermon 19:2 on New Advent: "This profitable observance, dearly beloved, is especially laid down for the fasts of the Church, which, in accordance with the Holy Spirit's teaching, are so distributed over the whole year that the law of abstinence may be kept before us at all times. Accordingly we keep the spring fast in Lent, the summer fast at Whitsuntide, the autumn fast in the seventh month, and the winter fast in this which is the tenth month, knowing that there is nothing unconnected with the Divine commands, and that all the elements serve the Word of God to our instruction, so that from the very hinges on which the world turns, as if by four gospels we learn unceasingly what to preach and what to do. For, when the prophet says, The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork: day unto day utters speech, and night shows knowledge , what is there by which the Truth does not speak to us? By day and by night His voices are heard, and the beauty of the things made by the workmanship of the One God ceases not to instil the teachings of Reason into our hearts' ears, so that the invisible things of God may be perceived and seen through the things which are made, and men may serve the Creator of all, not His creatures. Since therefore all vices are destroyed by self-restraint, and whatever avarice thirsts for, pride strives for, luxury lusts after, is overcome by the solid force of this virtue, who can fail to understand the aid which is given us by fastings?"

While the same rules pursued in the early Church don't bind us, we can continue in their spirit.

I think fasting is an indispensable component of spiritual warfare. Spiritual barriers are broken by it.

There will of course be health benefits also because of reasonable fasting. But the spiritual ones are primary.

[Lynne]

I would be interested in joining this group!

[Jayne]

I think it's a great idea. Wednesdays and Fridays to start off sound good.

I was just reading of one of Pope St. Leo's writings on fasting.

Xavier, this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for.  One of my favourite popes too! Thank you so much.

[Lynne]

There's an intermittent fasting for Catholics group on Facebook but there's nothing extraordinarily Catholic about it (very nice people though).

[Jayne]

There's an intermittent fasting for Catholics group on Facebook but there's nothing extraordinarily Catholic about it (very nice people though).

I found an FB group that says it for discussing spiritual as well as physical aspects of fasting, but it is not Catholic at all.  They weren't hostile when I posted about Rogation days but only one person seemed to "get it".  It is mostly about physical aspects, although a doctor associated with the group provides videos with messages "that God gives him" about fasting.



Anyhow, I may have more success with trying to form the sort of group I want rather than find one that already exists.

[mikemac]

I did a search on this forum for Rogation Days and found this post by VeraeFidei from 6 years ago that says,

http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=7219.msg151551#msg151551

No Fasting in Paschaltide, period.

1 exception: Vigil of Pentecost.

Which seems to contradict both the Rogation Days page and the Ember Days page.

From the Rogation Days page,
https://www.fisheaters.com/customseastertide3.html

St. Charles Borromeo, who restored in his Diocese of Milan so many ancient practices of piety, was sure not to be indifferent about the Rogation Days. He spared neither word nor example to re-animate this salutary devotion among his people. He ordered fasting to be observed during these three Days; he fasted himself on bread and water. The Procession, in which all the Clergy of the City were obliged to join, and which began after the sprinkling of Ashes, started from the Cathedral at an early hour in the morning, and was not over till three or four o'clock in the afternoon. Thirteen Churches were visited on the Monday; nine, on the Tuesday; and eleven, on the Wednesday. The saintly Archbishop celebrated Mass and preached in one of these Churches.

From the Ember Days page,
https://www.fisheaters.com/emberdays.html

These times are spent fasting and partially abstaining (voluntary since the new Code of Canon Law) in penance and with the intentions of thanking God for the gifts He gives us in nature and beseeching Him for the discipline to use them in moderation. The fasts, known as "Jejunia quatuor temporum," or "the fast of the four seasons," are rooted in Old Testament practices of fasting four times a year:

    Zacharias 8:19:
    Thus saith the Lord of hosts: The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth shall be to the house of Juda, joy, and gladness, and great solemnities: only love ye truth and peace.

The four fast times are mentioned on the Ember Days page.

Yeah, I would be interested in joining this group too.

[Jayne]

I did a search on this forum for Rogation Days and found this post by VeraeFidei from 6 years ago that says,

http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=7219.msg151551#msg151551

No Fasting in Paschaltide, period.

1 exception: Vigil of Pentecost.

Which seems to contradict both the Rogation Days page and the Ember Days page.

I was actually wondering about this because the homily in the Mass I watched on Vigil of the Ascension was taking about how it was the only vigil of a major feast that did not have fasting. It was a major point in the homily and he went into detail about the significance of not fasting on that day.

But Vigil of the Ascension always falls on the last minor Rogation day and I thought they were fast days.  I wish that VeraeFidei were still active on the forum.  He knew so much about this sort of thing.

[Jayne]

I found an article that confirms what VeraeFidei said: https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/some-history-paschal-time-3961

The fifty days between Easter and Pentecost have ever been considered by the Church as most holy. The first week, which is more expressly devoted to celebrating our Lord's Resurrection, is kept up as one continued Feast; but the remainder of the fifty days is also marked with special honors. To say nothing of the joy, which is the characteristic of this period of the year, and of which the Alleluia is the expression,—Christian tradition has assigned to Eastertide two practices, which distinguish it from every other Season. The first is, that fasting is not permitted during the entire interval: it is an extension of the ancient precept of never fasting on a Sunday, and the whole of Eastertide is considered as one long Sunday. This practice, which would seem to have come down from the time of the Apostles, was accepted by the religious rules of both East and West, even by the severest.

St. Ambrose speaking on the same subject, says:

If the Jews are not satisfied with the Sabbath of each week, but keep also one which lasts a whole month, and another which lasts a whole year;—how much more ought not we to honor Our Lord's Resurrection? Hence our ancestors have taught us to celebrate the fifty days of Pentecost as a continuation of Easter. They are seven weeks, and the Feast of Pentecost commences the eighth.... During these fifty days, the Church observes no fast, as neither does she on any Sunday, for it is the day on which Our Lord rose: and all these fifty days are like so many Sundays." [In Lucam, lib. viii. cap. xxv.]

[Jayne]

Here is a site with some information: http://www.holytrinitygerman.org/Paschaltide.html

The close of the Easter Octave, however, does not end the jubilance of Paschaltide. The Allelulia continues to be used copiously in the Mass and in the divine office; the Vidi Aquam and Regina cœli continue to replace the Asperges and Angelus; and the Paschal candle still burns bright. Nevertheless, a discernible shift in mood and meaning takes place. The weekdays no longer have their own set of Mass propers, while the Sunday propers tend to focus less on the specific events of the Resurrection and more on the general legacy of Christ's victory. There also occurs an interesting "triduum" immediately prior to the Feast of the Ascension known as the Lesser Rogation Days (see Rogation Days, etc.). Instituted in the 400s by St. Claudianus Mamertus in response to a series of natural catastrophes that were plaguing the diocese of Vienne in Dauphiny, the observance soon spread to the rest of France in the sixth century and then to Rome in the ninth. Rogationtide consists of penitential processions from or to the church during which are prayed poignant litanies petitioning for deliverance from a multitude of evils. Because these rogations were often agricultural, processions would often be conducted into the field for the priest to bless the crops. The Lesser Rogation Days were also once considered an ideal time to mend any personal rifts between parishioners (see schema).

And this the explanation for the Pentecost Ember days:

Finally, the week after Pentecost constitutes the concluding stage of the Easter season, which quietly ends on the following Saturday afternoon. One distinctive feature of this week that bears special mention are the Ember Days. It no doubt strikes us as odd that three days of the jubilant Octave of Pentecost are reserved for fasting. This befuddlement has much to do with a common misconception about fasting, which tends to see the practice as a sign of contrition and sorrow. As is clear from the Mosaic Law, however, fasting can be joyous as well as penitential. In fact, it can express a variety of moods and serve a number of purposes. In the case of the Whitsundaytide Ember Days (as Pope St. Leo the Great once explained), the Apostles were commissioned by the Spirit to embark on a great mission, but before doing so they readied themselves with a holy fast by which they could more effectively wage war against the forces of evil. This was not a fast of mourning, but a fast of gladsome training and preparation. By following the example of the Apostles, St. Leo tells us, we too are joyfully preparing ourselves for our mission as witnesses of Christ to an unbelieving world. Having undergone the purgation of Lent and the sanctification of Paschaltide, we too are poised to burst out of the closed doors and speak the Good News of salvation.

[mikemac]

I can certainly see why there would be no fasting in Paschaltide/Eastertide.  Alleluia being the expression.

I wonder why there is a contradiction.  VeraeFidei hasn't logged in in over a year.  Although he would get a notice if he is still using the same email address. 

[mikemac]

Here is a site with some information: http://www.holytrinitygerman.org/Paschaltide.html
...

And this the explanation for the Pentecost Ember days:

Finally, the week after Pentecost constitutes the concluding stage of the Easter season, which quietly ends on the following Saturday afternoon. One distinctive feature of this week that bears special mention are the Ember Days. It no doubt strikes us as odd that three days of the jubilant Octave of Pentecost are reserved for fasting. This befuddlement has much to do with a common misconception about fasting, which tends to see the practice as a sign of contrition and sorrow. As is clear from the Mosaic Law, however, fasting can be joyous as well as penitential. In fact, it can express a variety of moods and serve a number of purposes. In the case of the Whitsundaytide Ember Days (as Pope St. Leo the Great once explained), the Apostles were commissioned by the Spirit to embark on a great mission, but before doing so they readied themselves with a holy fast by which they could more effectively wage war against the forces of evil. This was not a fast of mourning, but a fast of gladsome training and preparation. By following the example of the Apostles, St. Leo tells us, we too are joyfully preparing ourselves for our mission as witnesses of Christ to an unbelieving world. Having undergone the purgation of Lent and the sanctification of Paschaltide, we too are poised to burst out of the closed doors and speak the Good News of salvation.

That makes sense then.

[Jayne]

  VeraeFidei hasn't logged in in over a year.  Although he would get a notice if he is still using the same email address.

Good point. I'll try sending him a PM and see what happens.

[VeraeFidei]

Howdy!

Thank you for reaching out, Jayne.

I don't think I am all that knowledgeable about this but I am happy to share what I have read and my thoughts. If there are questions I can add to, I am happy to do so. The quotes from me below are me excerpting, I believe, Dom Gueranger's The Liturgical Year. As far as Ember Days, those are outside of Paschaltide. Rogation days...I don't know. A few thoughts:

1. There is a certain "uniformity" I think some trads want, that is not actually consonant with tradition. A good example is Liturgical Rites in general. The Roman Rite being as ubiquitous as it is, is actually rather unfortunate, and certainly was not the case for most of the Western Church's history. I mention this to make the point that there can be things that are different or that do not quite square, and that is ok. Our Faith is real, and not calculated in a laboratory. Even if (hypothetically speaking) there is dissonance about fasting on Rogation Days contradicting a maxim about fasting during Paschaltide, this does not place the legitimacy of the Faith into jeopardy.

2. I do not know how universal the fasts of Rogation Days were. I am sure there is plenty of information available about this, though. 

[mikemac]

Thanks VeraeFidei.  That didn't take long.  Less than 15 minutes. 

We are newbies at this.  Just wondering if we should follow St. Charles Borromeo example or not.  Yeah I imagine there is lots of information available online.