Reprobation: Some Thoughts

[Gardener]

How about someone posts the actual texts of Fatima before any wild claims are made.

Good call.

Unfortunately, I have to run to class.

I look forward to aiding in this research, or enjoying the fruits of those who have the time before I do.

Regards.

[Gardener]

Have a few minutes on a break in class, and found the following:

On July 13, 1917 the Blessed Virgin unveiled a terrifying reality before the three children's
eyes. Lucia recounts: "Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire, which seemed to be under
the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls, in human form, like transparent
burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in this conflagration in
clouds of smoke, lifted by flames coming out of their bodies. They rose and fell on all
sides, like sparks in roaring fires, without weight or direction, amid shrieks and groans of
pain and despair that terrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be
distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals,
black and transparent like burning coals. This vision lasted but a moment, thanks to our
good Mother from Heaven who had warned us beforehand, and promised to take us to
Heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of horror and fear. Then we raised our eyes
to Our Lady, who said with kindness and sadness: 'You have seen Hell, where the souls of
poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My
Immacidate Heart. If people do what I am going to tell you, many souls will be saved and
there will be peace. ' "

Our Lady further said, "Pray, pray a great deal and make many sacrifices, for many soids
go to Hell because they have no one to make sacrifices and to pray for them. " (Fatima in
Lucia's Own Words)

http://archive.org/stream/TheMessageOfOurLadyOfFatimaWithPicture/fatimaSelectionspic_djvu.txt

Certain words are misspelled (soids vs souls), though I don't know why... perhaps some sort of scanning process?
-----

Our Lady said: "Many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray for them and make sacrifices for them.

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/whatucando/oluapp19.asp

-----

August 1917

"Go again to the Cova da Iria on the 13th and continue to say the Rosary every day.

Mary also said she would perform a miracle, so all would believe, and that if they had not been kidnapped it would have been even greater. Lucia then asked how the growing shrine should be administered, and requested cures for the sick, being told that some would be cured during the year.

"Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and pray for them."

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html

I guess I could keep quoting the same thing from various websites... but I dunno the point.

Either one accepts this, or they don't. If they accept it, I do not see how they can accept predestination as Thomas explains it (as being a fixed number), but it would be fine for Molinism, particularly  post praevisa merita.

[INPEFESS]

Certainly, God is the cause of the prayers and sacrifices by which these people are turned to Him. Thus, nothing happens outside of His divine causality and predestination. The number is fixed be wise God is the cause of our prayer that He uses to save a person He has already elected.

It really is difficult to discuss this matter unless one has studied the comprehensive Thomistic system. It is an entire system that only makes sense in light of the whole.

[Gardener]

Certainly, God is the cause of the prayers and sacrifices by which these people are turned to Him. Thus, nothing happens outside of His divine causality and predestination. The number is fixed be wise God is the cause of our prayer that He uses to save a person He has already elected.

It really is difficult to discuss this matter unless one has studied the comprehensive Thomistic system. It is an entire system that only makes sense in light of the whole.

How could one interpret Our Lady's words in light of the Thomistic position?

[INPEFESS]

Certainly, God is the cause of the prayers and sacrifices by which these people are turned to Him. Thus, nothing happens outside of His divine causality and predestination. The number is fixed be wise God is the cause of our prayer that He uses to save a person He has already elected.

It really is difficult to discuss this matter unless one has studied the comprehensive Thomistic system. It is an entire system that only makes sense in light of the whole.

How could one interpret Our Lady's words in light of the Thomistic position?

That is what I just explained.

[Gardener]

Certainly, God is the cause of the prayers and sacrifices by which these people are turned to Him. Thus, nothing happens outside of His divine causality and predestination. The number is fixed be wise God is the cause of our prayer that He uses to save a person He has already elected.

It really is difficult to discuss this matter unless one has studied the comprehensive Thomistic system. It is an entire system that only makes sense in light of the whole.

How could one interpret Our Lady's words in light of the Thomistic position?

That is what I just explained.

No, you didn't explain. You simply repeated a Thomistic position which is plainly in contrast to the words of Our Lady.

Our Lady is clear: People go to hell because they do not have anyone praying for them. Thus, if they had been prayed for they would have been elect/in heaven (for it's absurd to pray for something which is infallibly impossible... such would be akin to praying for homosexual "marriages" to be marriages and make babies or something as asinine).

If God predestines group A and reprobates group B, it matters not a bit if the entire world prays for group B in whole or a particular soul.

And really, this whole notion of "God doesn't predestine anyone to hell but infallibly declares all the elect who will be in heaven" smacks of lawyer-like tap dancing to me.

Nothing matters for an individual. They have no choice. If they were excluded from the elect under Thomism, it is only logical that they go to hell. There are only two final locations: Heaven or Hell.

God created the world. He creates each soul in it. Each soul He creates with no actual intention to save it is intending to damn it, unless we look at it from the perspective of Molinism and more specifically post praevisa merita. There is nothing within the ability of the soul, nor action on the part of God, which offers another route under Thomistic thought.

I cannot but imagine the life sentence which would follow for a parent who claims an antecedent will to raise their child well but then starves the little thing to death because they don't "will every good - namely growing up well".

There is no Father in Thomism, just Allah.

[LouisIX]

I cannot but imagine the life sentence which would follow for a parent who claims an antecedent will to raise their child well but then starves the little thing to death because they don't "will every good - namely growing up well".

There is no Father in Thomism, just Allah.

Here's your problem.  You think God is the cause of evil.  I'm not sure that even Molinism will save you from that opinion.

As for the Allah comment, I am trying to take you as charitably as possible, but this is a bit ridiculous.  Before you make such incendiary comments I think it would be wise for you to at least read Garrigou's Predestination.  You have yourself admitted that you do not fully understand the system, but you are willing to make comments like this about the Angelic Doctor and his teaching?

Again, the Congregatio declared that there was nothing in the Thomistic treatment of predestination which goes against the Faith.  You might want to consider that more carefully.

[Gardener]

I cannot but imagine the life sentence which would follow for a parent who claims an antecedent will to raise their child well but then starves the little thing to death because they don't "will every good - namely growing up well".

There is no Father in Thomism, just Allah.

Here's your problem.  You think God is the cause of evil.  I'm not sure that even Molinism will save you from that opinion.

As for the Allah comment, I am trying to take you as charitably as possible, but this is a bit ridiculous.  Before you make such incendiary comments I think it would be wise for you to at least read Garrigou's Predestination.  You have yourself admitted that you do not fully understand the system, but you are willing to make comments like this about the Angelic Doctor and his teaching?

Again, the Congregatio declared that there was nothing in the Thomistic treatment of predestination which goes against the Faith.  You might want to consider that more carefully.

Which of these books by Garrigou-Lagrange, and explanations of the writings of, or the very writings of, St. Thomas Aquinas should I go through again to understand the Thomistic position on this subject?

The Summa? The old copy of Predestination or the new one? The Summa of the Summa, Summa Contra Gentiles, or what?



It WAS G-L's "Predestination" which led me to practically having a breakdown already. I thought... well, perhaps I just didn't understand. Then you and INPEFESS come along and make clear I DID understand what was being said.

And so, do I really need to repeat the process of crawling across broken glass to arrive at the point from which I started? I can only do a few things the same way expecting a different result before I must consider myself insane.

Either I was made to know love and serve God, and can honestly expect everything to be given which is necessary for salvation (HOPE), or I was not made to know love and serve God and decidedly cannot expect anything unless I'm one of the chosen few.

I do not think God is the cause of evil. I think Thomism can only logically lead to that conclusion. Ergo, I'm in a state of rejecting Thomism on this issue. If I thought God was the cause of evil I'd embrace the system!

I don't know what level you have studied Islam, but I studied pretty hardcore for a while; the Thomistic explanation is analogous to Islam's fatalism. That's all I mean by the Allah comment. Perhaps it has to do with Islamists use of Aristotle or something. I dunno. I similarly am willing to say Protestants don't worship God, but the devil... there's layers to that.

I admitted I might not understand the system, but you keep reiterating what I understood as the system which made me think I didn't understand it initially. The conclusions I was drawing on certain things were, to my mind, impossible to be reconciled. If I see Blue and think maybe I'm wrong and hope you'll tell me Red, and you explain Blue... well, I guess I understood it then, eh?

Back when I went through this already I went to my Pastor, who I guarantee knows Thomas' doctrine properly. His explanation was in no way shape or form helpful. Made it worse, as at the time I was not aware of Molinism.

The problem I have with it is Thomas' explanation makes me despair. I was not raised to see God in such a light, nor anything I have read of Our Lady makes me see God as Thomas sees God in his writings (for surely now he sees God properly and any error is known to him), nor the extensive writings of my patron St. Maximilian Kolbe, nor Sacred Scripture -- whose reading is almost always with approved Catholic resources close by to dig into the depths and not interpret in error; nor am I able to see God as Thomas casts Him by my reading of St. Francis de Sales.

In short, I cannot accept the Thomistic position because its very explanation is against everything I have read which lead me to convert in the first place. A conversion with much joy to be true. But had Thomas' concept been explained, only fear would have pushed me, if at all. In fact, I'd probably have said such cannot be God. God is love, and as Fr. Most explains, the Augustinian and thus Thomistic understanding is very much not love.

How can I love a God, and believe I am loved, when told that the cookie crumbles in an eternal fashion which is outright repugnant, and I would have never had a chance anyway?

How can I look at a crucifix and see anything but pointlessness in my own creation?

How can I look at the Tabernacle, containing Christ Himself, and believe He actually cares enough to be there?

God hates no one. It is God who is hated. His love which is rejected is the cause of man's damnation. But in no way can I accept that some just ain't gonna make it because God didn't choose them with no actual reason.

I refuse to be told I'm just a widget who bonks along the conveyor belt to heaven or hell, depending on which path God has set me. Especially when told that going to hell would be my choice when there is absolutely no way for me to ever get on the conveyor belt to heaven.

To be clear though, I'm not saying I know better than the Church. I'm just saying the Church has never explained this in a manner which clearly answers it. So I choose the school of thought which is acceptable.

And if the Church ever declares in my lifetime that Thomas' explanation is right, I'll be on the first thing burning to Syria and declare Christ as King and the necessity of conversion to every single beheading, hardcore Islamist revolutionary fighting Assad that I can find. Because at least as a martyr I'd be guaranteed heaven.

Then again, under Thomism, I might just end up in the Atlantic since it's all fate anyway.

[Non Nobis]

Please first read the previous post by Gardener.  I am sorry that my post is badly-timed.
Gardener I'm saying a prayer for you .. this stuff is hard.

If God predestines group A and reprobates group B, it matters not a bit if the entire world prays for group B in whole or a particular soul.

I'm speaking as a non-expert here (eg one who hasn't read Predestination by Garrigou-Lagrange    and  speculating...

You're thinking as if God makes a list of elect and reprobate, then goes back in His office and starts up mankind, pretty much ignoring what we do because He has already made up His mind.

I think that He is outside time, and that His election and reprobation and permitting the evil are outside time,  but of course He is cognizant of what He is the primary cause:  the execution of His providence that is inside of time.  He causes the prayers for some in group A that (over time) were said because some listened  to Our Lady, prayers that He knew would bring grace that would result in the salvation for some.  God's causing prayers or any good still leaves men to be free secondary causes in "working out our salvation", and the sole cause of sin. (I think that being unable to accept that man's free will is not at all denied under Thomism is a big cause of being unable to accept Thomistic predestination).

Anyway,  I think I am going to buy the oft-mentioned book "Predestination".

[Gardener]

Under Thomism it doesn't matter if you pray for me if I'm reprobate. Que sera sera, and all that crap. Since I believe Thomas to be wrong, thank you.

Free will imperatively implies a choice between two paths.

Choice implies that person A faced with path > heaven just as much as path > Hell.

If person A has the paths before them, at the fork of death (because the timeline of life actually doesn't matter, only the moments right before death/death), and Heaven's stairscase is washed out for the person, they simply ain't going to heaven. Therefore, Person A is left with.... *drum roll*, Hell! What a choice! A choice of one choice between one thing!

But if Person B comes along, and they are led along to Heaven and Hell's path is closed off to them, they're elect.

Hooray and chocolate ice cream for everyone (well, not everyone and not even those who ardently want to not be lactose intolerant).

[Clare]

Certainly, God is the cause of the prayers and sacrifices by which these people are turned to Him. Thus, nothing happens outside of His divine causality and predestination.

Then many people go to Hell because God hasn't caused others to pray and sacrifice for them...?

[Pheo]

I don't pretend to fully understand predestination, but at least the Hanc igitur is always there to give me hope (the Church wouldn't have created this prayer if it was useless to ask!):

Hanc igitur oblationem servitutis nostrae, sed et cunctae familiae tuae, quaesumus, Domine, ut placatus accipias: diesque nostros in tua pace disponas, atque ab aeterna damnatione nos eripi, et in electorum tuorum iubeas grege numerari.

[LouisIX]

Certainly, God is the cause of the prayers and sacrifices by which these people are turned to Him. Thus, nothing happens outside of His divine causality and predestination.

Then many people go to Hell because God hasn't caused others to pray and sacrifice for them...?

How would the good of praying and sacrificing for another not come from God?  All good things come ultimately from God as first cause and source of all good.  The Scriptures reiterate this so very often.

"What hast thou that thou has not received?"

[Clare]

Certainly, God is the cause of the prayers and sacrifices by which these people are turned to Him. Thus, nothing happens outside of His divine causality and predestination.

Then many people go to Hell because God hasn't caused others to pray and sacrifice for them...?

How would the good of praying and sacrificing for another not come from God?  All good things come ultimately from God as first cause and source of all good.  The Scriptures reiterate this so very often.

"What hast thou that thou has not received?"

Of course, I'm not arguing with that. But if people are going to Hell because other people aren't praying for them, and that God causes those who do pray to pray, isn't the corollary that He isn't causing those who don't pray to pray, and that's why they're not praying and people are going to Hell?

I'm not expressing my train of thought very well. Does this attempt at a syllogism work?

Our Lady said many people go to Hell because no one is praying for them.
God causes people to pray.
Therefore many people are going to Hell because God isn't causing anyone to pray for them.

But then God might be causing me to pray for all those who have no one else to pray for them, so everyone's covered.

[LouisIX]

Yes, God's providence is not frustrated by us little men.  He permits that some men fall, that others do not pray as much as they should, etc.