Hi. One of the requirements of the Brown Scapular is that I observe chastity in life. However, for the past year, I have been struggling with masturbation. Can I still receive the graces of the Scapular, even though I've been struggling with this sin?
Also, can I be enrolled in the Brown Scapular Confraternity, even though I'm not yet Catholic? Does the Scapular need to be blessed by a priest?
Thank you. God bless.
Once you're able, go to Confession. Others enrolled in the Brown Scapular have fallen into sins against chastity, but they go to Confession and they can pick up with living out the requirements of the scapular. I doubt you can be enrolled until you are a member of the Church, but someone else might have more concrete information about that. Regarding the struggle you're having, talk to your priest about how to avoid occasions of sin, etc.
Quote from: bben15 on January 18, 2014, 07:42:56 PM
Does the Scapular need to be blessed by a priest?
There's a blessing during the enrollment. After you are enrolled then additional scapulars don't need to be blessed (that is, when your scapular breaks or gets worn out and you get a new one, the new one doesn't need to be blessed).
Also, I doubt you can be enrolled before entering into the Church. (But I really don't know for sure.)
There's a ridiculous amount of graces that come with wearing the scapular. Get yourself one and start wearing it. Ask your priest to enrol you just after your baptism, then you'll be able to keep in mind your baptism while you wear it as well.
One of the requirements for being good Catholic is observing chastity in life. We all struggle against sin, particularly the sins of the flesh, since our bodies can be so strong. perseverance in prayer is the key in all things. You're a Catholic, mate -you just haven't been baptised yet. God is surely paying attention to you in a good way, and won't turn a deaf ear to you. I'm sure you're already crowned with many graces. You're preparing for the sacrament of baptism, and a sacrament is an outward sign of inner grace. So though you haven't received the sacrament yet, you're graced by God. Keep that in mind, the divine assistance is with you, mate.
Even sinners like us are given the gift of grace by God, by him alone, and there's little much we can do about it apart from accept them with thanks. Even the worst sinners are given graces, that they can come to God.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 10:08:15 AM
There's a ridiculous amount of graces that come with wearing the scapular. Get yourself one and start wearing it. Ask your priest to enrol you just after your baptism, then you'll be able to keep in mind your baptism while you wear it as well.
One of the requirements for being good Catholic is observing chastity in life. We all struggle against sin, particularly the sins of the flesh, since our bodies can be so strong. perseverance in prayer is the key in all things. You're a Catholic, mate -you just haven't been baptised yet. God is surely paying attention to you in a good way, and won't turn a deaf ear to you. I'm sure you're already crowned with many graces. You're preparing for the sacrament of baptism, and a sacrament is an outward sign of inner grace. So though you haven't received the sacrament yet, you're graced by God. Keep that in mind, the divine assistance is with you, mate.
Even sinners like us are given the gift of grace by God, by him alone, and there's little much we can do about it apart from accept them with thanks. Even the worst sinners are given graces, that they can come to God.
I was baptized as an infant.
Quote from: bben15 on January 19, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
I was baptized as an infant.
What do you mean you're not Catholic then? Yer laughing if you were baptised. It's all good (Y). Say "I am a Catholic" and you're a Catholic.
Quote from: bben15 on January 18, 2014, 07:42:56 PM
Hi. One of the requirements of the Brown Scapular is that I observe chastity in life. However, for the past year, I have been struggling with masturbation. Can I still receive the graces of the Scapular, even though I've been struggling with this sin?
Also, can I be enrolled in the Brown Scapular Confraternity, even though I'm not yet Catholic? Does the Scapular need to be blessed by a priest?
Thank you. God bless.
Indeed you can receive those graces. In fact, the Brown Scapular will prove to be a powerful aid in your fight. It will also help to develop a good prayer life to fill the void. Especially mental prayer. above all else, talk to atraditional priest, by phone if you must. Tell him about your struggles, and ask him to recommend a prayer routine. that way, you get more graces for obedience on top of everything else.
One last note: This will likely be a cross you have to carry for the rest of your life. When it comes to sexual sins, a person is never the same once that line is crossed. The temptation to go back down that rabbit hole will always be there, especially when you're tired, depressed, lonely, or not feeling good in general. Follow what the priest says, and don't delay in countering the temptations when they come.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: bben15 on January 19, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
I was baptized as an infant.
What do you mean you're not Catholic then? Yer laughing if you were baptised. It's all good (Y). Say "I am a Catholic" and you're a Catholic.
I was baptized as a Lutheran, not a Catholic. I haven't been received into the Catholic Church yet.
Quote from: bben15 on January 19, 2014, 10:57:49 AM
I was baptized as a Lutheran, not a Catholic. I haven't been received into the Catholic Church yet.
Was you baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost? And you now believe the creed of the Catholic church? If yes, then you're a Catholic. 'Reception into the church' isn't on the list of sacraments. What does that even entail? Is there a specific ritual that must be done or something? If you're baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and you believe the creed, then you're a Catholic. The paperwork is just a novelty.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 11:14:52 AM
'Reception into the church' isn't on the list of sacraments. What does that even entail? Is there a specific ritual that must be done or something? If you're baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and you believe the creed, then you're a Catholic. The paperwork is just a novelty.
I think bben15 means he's preparing to receive the sacraments of Confession and Confirmation. You know - the ones you cradle Catholics take for granted! ;)
I went to Catholic school, and none of my family care about the Church. So I had to do that myself a few years after I moved out from home, when I was 19 or something. Confession I just went to, didn't need any fanfare for that. Confirmation they made me do some stupid RCIA course where they talked about the most superficial aspects of the church for four weeks. That was so frustrating. Still went to communion regularly, though. And I was a Catholic before my first communion when I was 8, too.
So I'm not a 'cradle Catholic' because that would imply I was brought up in a practicing Catholic family. I wasn't.
Baptised +believing = Catholic, innit ;)
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 11:36:37 AM
I went to Catholic school, and none of my family care about the Church. So I had to do that myself a few years after I moved out from home, when I was 19 or something. Confession I just went to, didn't need any fanfare for that. Confirmation they made me do some stupid RCIA course where they talked about the most superficial aspects of the church for four weeks. That was so frustrating. Still went to communion regularly, though. And I was a Catholic before my first communion when I was 8, too.
So I'm not a 'cradle Catholic' because that would imply I was brought up in a practicing Catholic family. I wasn't.
Baptised +believing = Catholic, innit ;)
You never left the Church, though,
Deo gratias. If you had embraced some false religion after your baptism, like the OP here, you would have had to have been confirmed before you could have rightly called yourself a Catholic.
You're very generous in giving this OP the right to be called something as wonderful as
Catholic. But it's not the right time yet. If he were already Catholic he could go to Confession and Communion.
Does atheism count as a false religion?
Why can't he just go to confession and communion?
Why do you ask about atheism? The OP is learning the Catholic faith so that he can know how to practise it. He used to be a Lutheran.
irst off, You need to recognize the moments or times in your life when you at your most vulnerable to MB, like at night, evening, or whenever your alone. . Think about the movies, shows, and even people you hangout with that cause the urges. Think about what internal causes you to MB like temptation, stress, anxiety, depression, bored, fear or anything of the like. When these scenarios take place you need to change your current habit of thought. This where you need to develop a self talk attitude towards these moments. You need to know tell your self your get rid of stress in a different way because most moments are related to stress. This is where you need to develop a new habit. A healthy one of course. You can exercise , read, and if need be call a friend. Breaking a habit is very hard. You need to know that you are the farthest from being alone in the matter, granted that's not the problem. The real problem is everyone thinks its OK. That's the hardest thing to get your mind on is really how bad is this regardless what people say.
Second is most importantly. Prayer the rosary daily, pray the St. Michael's prayer. I can't stress it enough. Reading about Saints can be helpful. Reading scripture. As Saint Augustine says "Do as if everything depends upon you, and prayer as if everything depends upon God"
Quote from: per_passionem_eius on January 19, 2014, 12:18:58 PMThe OP is learning the Catholic faith so that he can know how to practise it. He used to be a Lutheran.
I'd just go confession if I were him, and get enrolled for confirmation ASAP. There shouldn't be so much faffing about. "oh you're not Catholic yet because... well just because" nah, just do it.
Crowley, the OP was raised Lutheran. He's not a Catholic and he must convert before receiving any of the sacraments. Telling him to receive the sacraments before he is properly disposed will bring condemnation on his soul.
Had the OP been raised Catholic and then apostatized, his path toward reconciliation with the Church would be different. He would need to make a general confession and possibly a profession of Faith. But the circumstances for the OP are that of a convert, not a so-called revert. Unless you have some Church document to back up your claims that he is simply a fallen-away Catholic due to his Trinitarian baptism and that he should just present himself for the sacraments, stop giving him bad advice.
How exactly does one 'convert' when you've already converted. Dude's a Catholic. He believes the Catholic faith, and prays to God. It all seems very suburban to me, like. Is there a secret sacrament for those who convert after being baptised?
The poor lad is asking questions like "can I go before The Blessed Sacrament?" and "can I wear a scapular?" because he's being told he's not a Catholic yet. Ye either are or you're not. I don't know what all this 'yet' could be about. "Do you believe everything the church teaches and professes?" if the answer is aye, and you're baptised then yer a Catholic. It's nae an initiatory cult where ye have to wait for the stars to line up right or something, eh?
Everyone has to be properly catechized before receiving the sacraments, cradle Catholics or not. The OP is in the process of being catechized.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 02:05:31 PM
How exactly does one 'convert' when you've already converted. Dude's a Catholic. He believes the Catholic faith, and prays to God. It all seems very suburban to me, like. Is there a secret sacrament for those who convert after being baptised?
The poor lad is asking questions like "can I go before The Blessed Sacrament?" and "can I wear a scapular?" because he's being told he's not a Catholic yet. Ye either are or you're not. I don't know what all this 'yet' could be about. "Do you believe everything the church teaches and professes?" if the answer is aye, and you're baptised then yer a Catholic. It's nae an initiatory cult where ye have to wait for the stars to line up right or something, eh?
His questions show that he's in the learning process. No one has said he can't visit the Blessed Sacrament, or wear the Brown Scapular, have they?
Quote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 02:21:41 PM
Everyone has to be properly catechized before receiving the sacraments, cradle Catholics or not. The OP is in the process of being catechized.
I think of my RCIA classes. I KNOW I wasn't properly catechized. I think of all the things I learned on my way to tradition and am still learning.
Where would this leave the majority of converts and NO Catholics?
Quote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 02:21:41 PM
Everyone has to be properly catechized before receiving the sacraments
Nah, ye don't need an RE degree to go to confession. If ye believe what the Church teaches, and accept it, then you're good to go. You don't need lessons on it. The Nicene creed is all ye need ;)
Quote from: per_passionem_eius on January 19, 2014, 02:29:07 PM
His questions show that he's in the learning process. No one has said he can't visit the Blessed Sacrament, or wear the Brown Scapular, have they?
No.
Quote from: JoyfulMother on January 19, 2014, 02:36:53 PM
I think of my RCIA classes. I KNOW I wasn't properly catechized. I think of all the things I learned on my way to tradition and am still learning.
Where would this leave the majority of converts and NO Catholics?
Exactly. Catechism classes are awful. Just get it done. If you're interested in the faith you'll do it yourself. If ye go to the Mass you'll learn it all in the priest's homily eventually, anyway.
You're both missing the point. Regardless of how good or bad the typical catechism classes are, there is a process that has to be followed before people are admitted to the sacraments. bben can't just present himself for the sacraments without following this process.
What process? Why? Sounds daft.
Because priests can't just dispense the sacraments to any person who shows up and says, "Hey, I wasn't raised in the Faith but I'm Catholic, so I'll just have you hear my confession now, thanks." It doesn't work that way. Priests have to protect the sacraments from abuse, and simply permitting anyone to the sacraments is an abuse.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 11:14:52 AM
Quote from: bben15 on January 19, 2014, 10:57:49 AM
I was baptized as a Lutheran, not a Catholic. I haven't been received into the Catholic Church yet.
Was you baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost? And you now believe the creed of the Catholic church? If yes, then you're a Catholic. 'Reception into the church' isn't on the list of sacraments. What does that even entail? Is there a specific ritual that must be done or something? If you're baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and you believe the creed, then you're a Catholic. The paperwork is just a novelty.
Mr. Crowley, it is irresponsible for you to give advice to bben when you do not know what you are talking about. I'm glad to see that you are asking about this in the "ask a trad" subforum and working on educating yourself. Please take more care to avoid giving incorrect information to people who are seeking knowledge.
What possible reason is there to prevent a baptised person of the Catholic faith from going to confession?
I'm not hearing any reasons why I'm wrong here.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 06:58:26 PM
What possible reason is there to prevent a baptised person of the Catholic faith from going to confession?
When a person has been a heretic and wants to be a Catholic, he needs to publicly profess the Catholic faith and renounce his heresy (although this renunciation is not explicitly done in the modern RCIA.)
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 06:58:50 PM
I'm not hearing any reasons why I'm wrong here.
Then you're not reading. Penelope explained why. He is not yet Catholic. Catholic children receive training before their First Communion and first Confession. He was not raised in the Catholic faith.
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
Quote from: Lynne on January 19, 2014, 07:03:59 PM
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 06:58:50 PM
I'm not hearing any reasons why I'm wrong here.
Then you're not reading. Penelope explained why. He is not yet Catholic. Catholic children receive training before their First Communion and first Confession. He was not raised in the Catholic faith.
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
No, I am reading.
Penelope didn't explain anything.
He is a Catholic. He has the Catholic faith.
I was not raised in the Catholic faith either. It's not something ye just get born into, we're not Jews or anything like that. Special training? I don't think so.lol
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 07:03:28 PM
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 06:58:26 PM
What possible reason is there to prevent a baptised person of the Catholic faith from going to confession?
When a person has been a heretic and wants to be a Catholic, he needs to publicly profess the Catholic faith and renounce his heresy (although this renunciation is not explicitly done in the modern RCIA.)
I think going to mass, reciting the creed is obviously an act of renouncing heresy and professing the faith, in and of itself.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:13:31 PM
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 07:03:28 PM
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 06:58:26 PM
What possible reason is there to prevent a baptised person of the Catholic faith from going to confession?
When a person has been a heretic and wants to be a Catholic, he needs to publicly profess the Catholic faith and renounce his heresy (although this renunciation is not explicitly done in the modern RCIA.)
I think going to mass, reciting the creed is obviously an act of renouncing heresy and professing the faith, in and of itself.
It is not a public act if you are just anonymously in the pews like everyone else. You need to get in front of people and say "I'm Catholic now."
Before mass, go "I'm Catholic now". Wow that was hard.
I did explain, quite clearly. Your inability or unwillingness to understand it is another matter, but the rationale has been explained. The Catholic Faith is not something you get born into, but rather something you get baptized into and then educated in. bben has been educated in a heretical religion and must be educated in the True Faith before receiving the sacraments. Why you can't or won't understand this fact is troubling, but I recommend that you talk to your priest. He can explain it to you and can make sure that your reversion is complete.
Quote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 07:21:06 PM
I did explain, quite clearly. Your inability or unwillingness to understand it is another matter, but the rationale has been explained. The Catholic Faith is not something you get born into, but rather something you get baptized into and then educated in. bben has been educated in a heretical religion and must be educated in the True Faith before receiving the sacraments. Why you can't or won't understand this fact is troubling, but I recommend that you talk to your priest. He can explain it to you and can make sure that your reversion is complete.
You should stop with the 'won't' and 'unwillingness' part, because it sounds like you're just trying to implicate bad will on my part to give me a ban or something. And please, don't make out like I need a reversion. Frankly it's just rude. I am a Catholic. I don't need some special course to prove it, and you are certainly in no position to judge my catholicity.
You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
Quote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 07:21:06 PM
I did explain, quite clearly. Your inability or unwillingness to understand it is another matter, but the rationale has been explained. The Catholic Faith is not something you get born into, but rather something you get baptized into and then educated in. bben has been educated in a heretical religion and must be educated in the True Faith before receiving the sacraments. Why you can't or won't understand this fact is troubling, but I recommend that you talk to your priest. He can explain it to you and can make sure that your reversion is complete.
You should stop with the 'won't' and 'unwillingness' part, because it sounds like you're just trying to implicate bad will on my part to give me a ban or something. And please, don't make out like I need a reversion. Frankly it's just rude. I am a Catholic. I don't need some special course to prove it, and you are certainly in no position to judge my catholicity.
She said "unwillingness
or inability" the two logical explanations for your lack of understanding. She did not sound like she was trying to imply bad will on your part. Everyone reading this thread is in a position to judge how well you understand this topic
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.
Before modern RCIA classes, the norm was for converts to receive private instruction. There has always been a need for converts to be educated in the Faith.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
Quote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 07:21:06 PM
I did explain, quite clearly. Your inability or unwillingness to understand it is another matter, but the rationale has been explained. The Catholic Faith is not something you get born into, but rather something you get baptized into and then educated in. bben has been educated in a heretical religion and must be educated in the True Faith before receiving the sacraments. Why you can't or won't understand this fact is troubling, but I recommend that you talk to your priest. He can explain it to you and can make sure that your reversion is complete.
You should stop with the 'won't' and 'unwillingness' part, because it sounds like you're just trying to implicate bad will on my part to give me a ban or something. And please, don't make out like I need a reversion. Frankly it's just rude. I am a Catholic. I don't need some special course to prove it, and you are certainly in no position to judge my catholicity.
You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.
First of all, the rationale has been explained and you refused to accept it or even try to understand it. You keep calling it "daft." Thus, you come across not as questioning, but as obstinate and unwilling to understand. Second, your accusation that I am just looking for a reason to ban you (which I am not) makes you guilty of bad will, the exact thing of which you've accused me. Third, just saying "I'm a Catholic now" to yourself is not enough. Jayne and I (and others) have already explained why. If you don't believe us, talk to your SSPX priest. I didn't say you weren't a Catholic, I said that if you want to be sure that you've reverted to the Faith properly, you need to talk to your priest. And yes, all who apostatize must officially revert. That's how it works.
Your declaration that one does not need to be educated in the Faith in order to properly practice the Faith is unbelievably incorrect and contrary to the teaching of the Church. You need more than baptism and the creed. There's so much more to practicing the Faith than that, which is why the Church catechizes its members well past the memorization of a simple prayer. Your assertion is what's ridiculous and is dangerous to proclaim to bben and other converts. You have no idea what you're talking about, and you are in no position to be instructing people in how to practice the Faith.
Prior to the implementation of RCIA, other programs existed. Converts took private lessons from the parish priest. No one who just showed up at the door and said, "I've always been a pagan [or whatever else] but now I want to be a Catholic" was just granted access to the sacraments. It. Has. Never. Worked. That. Way.
In the old days, not only did only have to go through a period of time as a catechumen, one couldn't even stay at Mass for the consecration.
You're entirely outside of the teaching of the Church, Mr. Crowley, and your advice to the OP is spiritually ruinous.
Can somebody explain this thing about formally renouncing heresies? I'm a revert (I guess) and I never renounced all the heresies that I committed in the years that I was away from the Church. Should I contact my priest about this?
Quote from: Daniel on January 19, 2014, 07:56:58 PM
Can somebody explain this thing about formally renouncing heresies? I'm a revert (I guess) and I never renounced all the heresies that I committed in the years that I was away from the Church. Should I contact my priest about this?
He'll probably say it's enough that you've gone to Confession and not to worry. You'd have to talk to an actual trad priest about it (which ours is not). Trust me, I'm in the same boat that you are and I worry about it, too.
Edit: Though I did do a general Confession when I came back, so Idk.
Quote from: Daniel on January 19, 2014, 07:56:58 PM
Can somebody explain this thing about formally renouncing heresies? I'm a revert (I guess) and I never renounced all the heresies that I committed in the years that I was away from the Church. Should I contact my priest about this?
If you haven't confessed holding heresies then just confess it next time.
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 07:42:51 PM
She said "unwillingness or inability" the two logical explanations for your lack of understanding.
So I'm either stupid or insincere? Lovely... could just be that I have a different opinion.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.
Before modern RCIA classes, the norm was for converts to receive private instruction. There has always been a need for converts to be educated in the Faith.
I n t e r n e t
Quote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 07:45:30 PM
First of all, the rationale has been explained and you refused to accept it or even try to understand it. You keep calling it "daft." Thus, you come across not as questioning, but as obstinate and unwilling to understand.
I understand what you have been saying, I am telling you what you are saying is daft.
QuoteSecond, your accusation that I am just looking for a reason to ban you (which I am not) makes you guilty of bad will, the exact thing of which you've accused me.
Guilty conscience? Because I definitely did not accuse you of anything, I told you it makes it look as if you are doing that. This even more makes it look like you are. What else am I to think. "Don't disagree with the bosses... or else", eh?
QuoteThird, just saying "I'm a Catholic now" to yourself is not enough. Jayne and I (and others) have already explained why.
No, you haven't. You have said that it is not enough, but you have failed miserably in providing a
why.
QuoteIf you don't believe us, talk to your SSPX priest.
It's really not important enough to bother my priest with.
QuoteI didn't say you weren't a Catholic, I said that if you want to be sure that you've reverted to the Faith properly, you need to talk to your priest.
No, I don't. I know for a fact that I have... because it is a fact.
QuoteAnd yes, all who apostatize must officially revert. That's how it works.
Officially? haha like with watermarked parchment and all that? :lol:
QuoteYour declaration that one does not need to be educated in the Faith in order to properly practice the Faith is unbelievably incorrect and contrary to the teaching of the Church.
[Citation needed] Do you mean Teaching or just the discipline of the church?
QuoteYou need more than baptism and the creed.
I'm gonna have to ask to see some evidence to back that up, please ma'am.
QuoteThere's so much more to practicing the Faith than that
Well there's lots of stuff to do with the faith, but that's what makes you Catholic. What else do you actually need?
QuoteYou have no idea what you're talking about, and you are in no position to be instructing people in how to practice the Faith.
So are you a cardinal now as well? Please tell me what position anyone here is in to instruct people? You have no idea what you're talking about yourelf, unless you're Fr. Penelope.
QuotePrior to the implementation of RCIA, other programs existed. Converts took private lessons from the parish priest. No one who just showed up at the door and said, "I've always been a pagan [or whatever else] but now I want to be a Catholic" was just granted access to the sacraments. It. Has. Never. Worked. That. Way.
It has. Guys used to just go round baptising everyone, everywhere.
Don't.Be.So.Mad.You.Tyoe.Like.This. It's an informal conversation on the internet. There's no need to be so rude. Lighten up, it will do you good.
Quote from: LouisIX on January 19, 2014, 07:51:14 PM
You're entirely outside of the teaching of the Church, Mr. Crowley, and your advice to the OP is spiritually ruinous.
Ruinous? That's stupid. If little children can get the sacraments without knowing how to tie their shoelaces, there's no reason why a young man can't.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 19, 2014, 07:51:14 PM
You're entirely outside of the teaching of the Church, Mr. Crowley, and your advice to the OP is spiritually ruinous.
Ruinous? That's stupid. If little children can get the sacraments without knowing how to tie their shoelaces, there's no reason why a young man can't.
Actually there is. Children are catechized before all sacraments but baptism (and sometimes confirmation) and the reason infants are baptized (and sometimes confirmed) is not because they do not need to understand the sacrament but because the Church recognizes that sponsors may stand in their place. Has the Church always been wrong in doing this? Is the Church wrong in stating that children must wait until the age of reason before receiving the sacraments of the Eucharist and Penance so that they understand the gravity of said sacraments?
You're not thinking straight here. The very history of the Church proves you wrong, unless you want to state that the Church has always been wrong and continues so today.
Quote from: Daniel on January 19, 2014, 07:56:58 PM
Can somebody explain this thing about formally renouncing heresies? I'm a revert (I guess) and I never renounced all the heresies that I committed in the years that I was away from the Church. Should I contact my priest about this?
Here is the traditional rite for doing this: http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/rituale-romanum/61-appendix-reception-of-converts-profession-of-faith.html (http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/rituale-romanum/61-appendix-reception-of-converts-profession-of-faith.html)
We were forgiven for our old heresies when we went to Confession, but I asked a trad priest if I could say this profession to him anyhow. He said yes, so I did it decades after joining the Church. It was not necessary, but I found it emotionally satisfying.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:59:55 PM
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 07:42:51 PM
She said "unwillingness or inability" the two logical explanations for your lack of understanding.
So I'm either stupid or insincere? Lovely... could just be that I have a different opinion.
Your opinion is wrong. And you cannot seem to understand why. Those are the only possibilities that I can think of.
People need to be taught the details of the creed and do what the Church prescribes before they can rightly be called Catholic because, among other reasons, they need to be warned what a difficult path they're about to embark on.
From the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 794 §1. The duty and right of educating belongs in a special way to the Church, to which has been divinely entrusted the mission of assisting persons so that they are able to reach the fullness of the Christian life.
§2. Pastors of souls have the duty of arranging everything so that all the faithful have a Catholic education.
Can. 843 §2. Pastors of souls and other members of the Christian faithful, according to their respective ecclesiastical function, have the duty to take care that those who seek the sacraments are prepared to receive them by proper evangelization and catechetical instruction, attentive to the norms issued by competent authority.
Can. 889 §2. To receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises.
What do you mean 'catechized' though? To what extent is that needed? Priests spend years in seminary learning theology and stuff. Are we all supposed to have that level of training? I don't think most people have the time to take that up.
Is a seven year old to show a deep understanding of transubstantiation before she can receive communion? What does intellectual capacity have to do with the faith?
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 08:13:15 PM
Your opinion is wrong. And you cannot seem to understand why. Those are the only possibilities that I can think of.
That's your opinion, and I am telling you it is wrong. Check & mate.
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 08:20:35 PM
From the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 794 §1. The duty and right of educating belongs in a special way to the Church, to which has been divinely entrusted the mission of assisting persons so that they are able to reach the fullness of the Christian life.
§2. Pastors of souls have the duty of arranging everything so that all the faithful have a Catholic education.
Says nothing about needing special lessons before you're considered Catholic. In fact, it says pastors have a duty to give the
faithful a Catholic education... implying they're already part of the faithful.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:59:55 PM
QuoteAnd yes, all who apostatize must officially revert. That's how it works.
Officially? haha like with watermarked parchment and all that?
The penalty for deliberate apostasy or heresy is latae sententiae excommunication (Can. 1364). The excommunication must be lifted prior to receiving any Sacraments (Can. 1331).
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:59:55 PM
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 07:42:51 PM
She said "unwillingness or inability" the two logical explanations for your lack of understanding.
So I'm either stupid or insincere? Lovely... could just be that I have a different opinion.
No, there isn't room for opinions in this matter. It's either you understand and agree with what the Church teaches or you don't.
QuoteQuote
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.
Before modern RCIA classes, the norm was for converts to receive private instruction. There has always been a need for converts to be educated in the Faith.
I n t e r n e t
Yeah, but then someone might stumble on something you've written and think it's right. Where would that leave them? If you really think that independent research into the Faith without proper training from priests, etc. is enough, then of the two options you listed above, "insincere" isn't the one I'd pick to describe you.
QuoteQuote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 07:45:30 PM
First of all, the rationale has been explained and you refused to accept it or even try to understand it. You keep calling it "daft." Thus, you come across not as questioning, but as obstinate and unwilling to understand.
I understand what you have been saying, I am telling you what you are saying is daft.
QuoteSecond, your accusation that I am just looking for a reason to ban you (which I am not) makes you guilty of bad will, the exact thing of which you've accused me.
Guilty conscience? Because I definitely did not accuse you of anything, I told you it makes it look as if you are doing that. This even more makes it look like you are. What else am I to think. "Don't disagree with the bosses... or else", eh?
Unless you see the green font, I'm not modding. That's how this place works. Read the forum rules.
QuoteQuoteThird, just saying "I'm a Catholic now" to yourself is not enough. Jayne and I (and others) have already explained why.
No, you haven't. You have said that it is not enough, but you have failed miserably in providing a why.
I explained that people who are not catechized regarding the sacraments cannot be properly disposed to receive them (see reply 16). If a person does not understand what the sacrament
is, he cannot be allowed to receive it. Further, see my response in reply 24 and Jayne's reply #28.
QuoteQuoteIf you don't believe us, talk to your SSPX priest.
It's really not important enough to bother my priest with.
QuoteI didn't say you weren't a Catholic, I said that if you want to be sure that you've reverted to the Faith properly, you need to talk to your priest.
No, I don't. I know for a fact that I have... because it is a fact.
How do you know it for a fact? Because you declared so yourself?
QuoteQuoteAnd yes, all who apostatize must officially revert. That's how it works.
Officially? haha like with watermarked parchment and all that? :lol:
More like a priest telling you that you're back. You can't just bring yourself back and say, "Okay, cool, here I am and that's enough."
QuoteQuoteYour declaration that one does not need to be educated in the Faith in order to properly practice the Faith is unbelievably incorrect and contrary to the teaching of the Church.
[Citation needed] Do you mean Teaching or just the discipline of the church?
See LouisIX's earlier replies. They cover the topic.
QuoteQuoteYou need more than baptism and the creed.
I'm gonna have to ask to see some evidence to back that up, please ma'am.
The fact that catechesis exists (particularly regarding children receiving the sacraments) is evidence enough.
QuoteQuoteThere's so much more to practicing the Faith than that
Well there's lots of stuff to do with the faith, but that's what makes you Catholic. What else do you actually need?
And understanding of what the sacraments are, what they do, why and how we receive them, etc. Also, certain Protestant sects recite the Nicene Creed. What's to separate a Lutheran or a Presbyterian from suddenly popping up at a Catholic Mass, declaring himself to be Catholic, reciting the Creed at Mass (which, actually, would be done by the altar boys in place of the laity), receiving the sacrament, and calling himself a Catholic? An official conversion, with a renunciation of past heresies, is essential in the process here.
QuoteQuoteYou have no idea what you're talking about, and you are in no position to be instructing people in how to practice the Faith.
So are you a cardinal now as well? Please tell me what position anyone here is in to instruct people? You have no idea what you're talking about yourelf, unless you're Fr. Penelope.
What kind of logical leap are you making here? You have made a very obvious (to the rest of us) error and are instructing a 16 year old kid to commit acts would would bring condemnation on his soul, and because I point that out to you, I am putting myself in the position of a priest? Come on.
QuoteQuotePrior to the implementation of RCIA, other programs existed. Converts took private lessons from the parish priest. No one who just showed up at the door and said, "I've always been a pagan [or whatever else] but now I want to be a Catholic" was just granted access to the sacraments. It. Has. Never. Worked. That. Way.
It has. Guys used to just go round baptising everyone, everywhere.
Not without educating them in the Faith. What do you think St. Paul's epistles are all about? And again, allow me to point you to LouisIX's earlier comments regarding the history of the catechumenate, etc.
QuoteDon't.Be.So.Mad.You.Tyoe.Like.This. It's an informal conversation on the internet. There's no need to be so rude. Lighten up, it will do you good.
Don't tell me how to post. Willful obstinacy and ignorance are incredibly frustrating. This isn't just some dumb conversation over the Internet. bben's and others' souls are at stake if they follow your horrible, misinformation and advice.
Quote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 08:25:08 PM
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:59:55 PM
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 07:42:51 PM
She said "unwillingness or inability" the two logical explanations for your lack of understanding.
So I'm either stupid or insincere? Lovely... could just be that I have a different opinion.
No, there isn't room for opinions in this matter. It's either you understand and agree with what the Church teaches or you don't.
I don't
QuoteQuote
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.
Before modern RCIA classes, the norm was for converts to receive private instruction. There has always been a need for converts to be educated in the Faith.
I n t e r n e t
Yeah, but then someone might stumble on something you've written and think it's right. Where would that leave them? If you really think that independent research into the Faith without proper training from priests, etc. is enough, then of the two options you listed above, "insincere" isn't the one I'd pick to describe you.
Yeah but somebody might stumble upon a heretical priest and think what they teach is right. Where would that leave them?
QuoteQuote from: Penelope on January 19, 2014, 07:45:30 PM
First of all, the rationale has been explained and you refused to accept it or even try to understand it. You keep calling it "daft." Thus, you come across not as questioning, but as obstinate and unwilling to understand.
I understand what you have been saying, I am telling you what you are saying is daft.
QuoteSecond, your accusation that I am just looking for a reason to ban you (which I am not) makes you guilty of bad will, the exact thing of which you've accused me.
Guilty conscience? Because I definitely did not accuse you of anything, I told you it makes it look as if you are doing that. This even more makes it look like you are. What else am I to think. "Don't disagree with the bosses... or else", eh?
Unless you see the green font, I'm not modding. That's how this place works. Read the forum rules.
QuoteQuoteThird, just saying "I'm a Catholic now" to yourself is not enough. Jayne and I (and others) have already explained why.
No, you haven't. You have said that it is not enough, but you have failed miserably in providing a why.
I explained that people who are not catechized regarding the sacraments cannot be properly disposed to receive them (see reply 16). If a person does not understand what the sacrament is, he cannot be allowed to receive it. Further, see my response in reply 24 and Jayne's reply #28.
It's not hard to understand what a sacrament is, basically. I don't see people presenting a certificate before Mass so they can receive communion.
QuoteQuoteIf you don't believe us, talk to your SSPX priest.
It's really not important enough to bother my priest with.
QuoteI didn't say you weren't a Catholic, I said that if you want to be sure that you've reverted to the Faith properly, you need to talk to your priest.
No, I don't. I know for a fact that I have... because it is a fact.
How do you know it for a fact? Because you declared so yourself?
Yes, because I think I know what I believe... in fact, I am the only one who knows that.
QuoteQuoteAnd yes, all who apostatize must officially revert. That's how it works.
Officially? haha like with watermarked parchment and all that? :lol:
More like a priest telling you that you're back. You can't just bring yourself back and say, "Okay, cool, here I am and that's enough."
Which sacrament is that? I did exactly that.
QuoteQuoteYour declaration that one does not need to be educated in the Faith in order to properly practice the Faith is unbelievably incorrect and contrary to the teaching of the Church.
[Citation needed] Do you mean Teaching or just the discipline of the church?
See LouisIX's earlier replies. They cover the topic.
QuoteQuoteYou need more than baptism and the creed.
I'm gonna have to ask to see some evidence to back that up, please ma'am.
The fact that catechesis exists (particularly regarding children receiving the sacraments) is evidence enough.
No, it isn't. It's useful but doesn't prove how necessary it is.
QuoteQuoteThere's so much more to practicing the Faith than that
Well there's lots of stuff to do with the faith, but that's what makes you Catholic. What else do you actually need?
And understanding of what the sacraments are, what they do, why and how we receive them, etc. Do you understand how transubstantiation works? Did you at first communion? Also, certain Protestant sects recite the Nicene Creed. What's to separate a Lutheran or a Presbyterian from suddenly popping up at a Catholic Mass, declaring himself to be Catholic, reciting the Creed at Mass (which, actually, would be done by the altar boys in place of the laity), receiving the sacrament, and calling himself a Catholic? An official conversion, with a renunciation of past heresies, is essential in the process here.
How do you define 'official'? Again, I've never seen an official 'reversion certificate'.
QuoteQuoteYou have no idea what you're talking about, and you are in no position to be instructing people in how to practice the Faith.
So are you a cardinal now as well? Please tell me what position anyone here is in to instruct people? You have no idea what you're talking about yourelf, unless you're Fr. Penelope.
What kind of logical leap are you making here?None You have made a very obvious (to the rest of us Cliques do tend to agree with each other a lot.) error You have no right to judge whether I am in error or not. You are not the Catholic Church. and are instructing a 16 year old kid to commit acts would would bring condemnation on his soul hahah Really? I don't think it works like that. What sin would he be commiting that brings condemnation?, and because I point that out to you, I am putting myself in the position of a priest? Come on.
QuoteQuotePrior to the implementation of RCIA, other programs existed. Converts took private lessons from the parish priest. No one who just showed up at the door and said, "I've always been a pagan [or whatever else] but now I want to be a Catholic" was just granted access to the sacraments. It. Has. Never. Worked. That. Way.
It has. Guys used to just go round baptising everyone, everywhere.
Not without educating them in the Faith. Yeah, 'educating'... right. What do you think St. Paul's epistles are all about? And again, allow me to point you to LouisIX's earlier comments regarding the history of the catechumenate, etc.
QuoteDon't.Be.So.Mad.You.Tyoe.Like.This. It's an informal conversation on the internet. There's no need to be so rude. Lighten up, it will do you good.
Don't tell me how to post. Don't tell me I'm in error. Willful obstinacy and ignorance are incredibly frustrating I know this firsthand, Penelope. This isn't just some dumb conversation over the Internet It is, if you think it isn't you should get out more. bben's and others' souls are at stake No, you're incredibly legalistic. If anyone's soul is at stake it would be mine... if I were so wrong. We're not talmudists and it's not a religion of the Law, i.e do this say that all good if they follow your horrible and the award for most dramatic performance goes to..., misinformation and advice.
Your definition of "Talmudism" would make the entire Code of Canon Law Talmudistic. The Faith is not legalistic, but that doesn't mean there are no rules.
Also, this is an official warning. It's one thing to disagree with a moderator, but you're being very disrespectful and hostile to Penelope. Similar infractions will result in a one day ban.
If you can't see the seriousness of what you're doing, then I don't know what else to say to you. You seem to take these matters way too lightly, thus putting your own soul and the souls of others at risk. I know that you disagree and chalk up the consensus here to mere mob mentality, but you're really posing serious risks here.
Regarding your concerns about the current state of catechesis and the very real possibility of a convert being catechized by a priest who holds heresy, that's the very reason why the current crisis is so, so troubling. That's the very reason this forum exists. When you post error all over it, you only complicate the problem.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 08:22:00 PM
What do you mean 'catechized' though? To what extent is that needed? Priests spend years in seminary learning theology and stuff. Are we all supposed to have that level of training? I don't think most people have the time to take that up.
Is a seven year old to show a deep understanding of transubstantiation before she can receive communion? What does intellectual capacity have to do with the faith?
Canon Law explicitly answers this:
QuoteCan. 913 §1. The administration of the Most Holy Eucharist to children requires that they have sufficient knowledge and careful preparation so that they understand the mystery of Christ according to their capacity and are able to receive the body of Christ with faith and devotion.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 08:22:00 PM
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 08:20:35 PM
From the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 794 §1. The duty and right of educating belongs in a special way to the Church, to which has been divinely entrusted the mission of assisting persons so that they are able to reach the fullness of the Christian life.
§2. Pastors of souls have the duty of arranging everything so that all the faithful have a Catholic education.
Says nothing about needing special lessons before you're considered Catholic. In fact, it says pastors have a duty to give the faithful a Catholic education... implying they're already part of the faithful.
The point I was making by citing that canon is that education is supposed to be part of being Catholic, whether born into the Faith or by conversion. The one that applies specifically to the situation under discussion is:
QuoteCan. 843 §2. Pastors of souls and other members of the Christian faithful, according to their respective ecclesiastical function, have the duty to take care that those who seek the sacraments are prepared to receive them by proper evangelization and catechetical instruction, attentive to the norms issued by competent authority.
One of the "norms issued by competent authority" concerns what is required to join the Church. People don't just do what they feel like. There are rules. The norms regarding RCIA are meant to ensure that people receive proper catechetical instruction before joining the Church. The RCIA classes might not always accomplish this goal, but it is a perfectly reasonable one.
Mr.Crowley, don't worry about (but do pray for) the souls of those who haven't yet been received into the Church. Because God will deny no one with good will everything they need to be saved. Fact. :)
Since error has no rights, it seems to me that a person who posts error, endangers the souls of others, and refuses to be corrected, is subject to action by the staff.
Quote from: Jayne on January 19, 2014, 09:05:01 PM
Since error has no rights, it seems to me that a person who posts error, endangers the souls of others, and refuses to be corrected, is subject to action by the staff.
That's exactly right.
Quote from: LouisIX on January 19, 2014, 08:58:15 PM
Also, this is an official warning. It's one thing to disagree with a moderator, but you're being very disrespectful and hostile to Penelope. Similar infractions will result in a one day ban.
Penelope is being very disrespectful and hostile toward me.
Please check yourself.
Quote from: LouisIX on January 19, 2014, 08:54:07 PM
Your definition of "Talmudism" would make the entire Code of Canon Law Talmudistic. The Faith is not legalistic, but that doesn't mean there are no rules.
The law is made for man, not man for the law.
If you think a moderator is being disrespectful to you then PM the moderators and/or KK. Don't volley back.
But, for the record, I haven't seen anything that she's written which is disrespectful to you.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 09:37:34 PM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 19, 2014, 08:54:07 PM
Your definition of "Talmudism" would make the entire Code of Canon Law Talmudistic. The Faith is not legalistic, but that doesn't mean there are no rules.
The law is made for man, not man for the law.
I've never said otherwise. Does that mean that one doesn't
really need to go to Mass every Sunday? One doesn't
really need to be a Catholic or be in the state of grace to receive the Eucharist?
Quote from: LouisIX on January 19, 2014, 09:38:04 PM
If you think a moderator is being disrespectful to you then PM the moderators and/or KK. Don't volley back.
But, for the record, I haven't seen anything that she's written which is disrespectful to you.
You would say that. The clique always stick together. Whatever, I'm out of this place. There's a few angry, bitter people that just have to ruin it by arguing. Ye can't deal with the fact that somebody disagrees with you.
You people are NOT the Holy Catholic church and have no right to pontificate, teach or judge any other Catholic.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 09:40:19 PM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 19, 2014, 09:38:04 PM
If you think a moderator is being disrespectful to you then PM the moderators and/or KK. Don't volley back.
But, for the record, I haven't seen anything that she's written which is disrespectful to you.
You would say that. The clique always stick together. Whatever, I'm out of this place. There's a few angry, bitter people that just have to ruin it by arguing. Ye can't deal with the fact that somebody disagrees with you.
You people are NOT the Holy Catholic church and have no right to pontificate, teach or judge any other Catholic.
Well, I'm sorry that you're leaving, but no, you don't have the right to disrespect the forum and the moderation. This is KK's site. A certain level of respect would just be courteous.
No one here claims to be the Catholic Church, but the Church's teachings are not some amorphous or Gnostic doctrines. We as lay Catholics can and do know the basics of what the Church teaches. We can look to the teachings of the Magisterium or canon law. And if you post something here that is wrong (according not to us but to the teaching authority of the Church) then we have a certain duty to correct you in charity. I truly do not believe that Penelope or myself were disrespectful to you. We were steadfast in our disagreement with you, but it was done in true charity.
And you were warned for how you were speaking to Penelope, not even for disagreeing with us.
QuoteYou would say that. The clique always stick together. Whatever, I'm out of this place. There's a few angry, bitter people that just have to ruin it by arguing. Ye can't deal with the fact that somebody disagrees with you.
And the Award for Least Self-Awareness goes to...
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 09:40:19 PM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 19, 2014, 09:38:04 PM
If you think a moderator is being disrespectful to you then PM the moderators and/or KK. Don't volley back.
But, for the record, I haven't seen anything that she's written which is disrespectful to you.
You would say that. The clique always stick together. Whatever, I'm out of this place. There's a few angry, bitter people that just have to ruin it by arguing. Ye can't deal with the fact that somebody disagrees with you.
You people are NOT the Holy Catholic church and have no right to pontificate, teach or judge any other Catholic.
Good riddance to bad rubbish!
Well, I think it's time for this thread to be locked. bben, if you're still reading this (and if so, God bless you) and you still have questions, first be sure to ask a traditional priest. Shoot him an e-mail or call him on the phone if you have to. But also feel free to create more threads and ask us, too. We'll point you in the right direction as best we can and help you find traditional sources to help answer those questions.
Quote from: Mr.Crowley on January 19, 2014, 08:22:00 PM
What do you mean 'catechized' though? To what extent is that needed? Priests spend years in seminary learning theology and stuff. Are we all supposed to have that level of training? I don't think most people have the time to take that up.
Is a seven year old to show a deep understanding of transubstantiation before she can receive communion? What does intellectual capacity have to do with the faith?
You need to read your history as well as your catechism. St. John Vianney prevented many of the children in his community from receiving the sacraments because they hadn't memorized their catechism well enough. Some of them had to wait well into their teenage years to receive communion, which as you can imagine, was embarrassing in a small town.
He certainly wasn't the only Priest to expect this. St. Bernadette was publicly rebuked by her parish priest because she didn't know her catechism, and Blessed Jacinta Marto was refused her first communion by her priest (despite technically receiving it from an angel) because she didn't know hers.