TLM VS NOM survey Results

Started by St.Justin, February 27, 2019, 09:06:53 AM

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St.Justin

Here is an very telling survey.

The Traditional Latin Mass Survey was conducted to parallel questions posed in previous research, allowing a direct comparison between the TLM attendees and those of the Novus Ordo Missae (English). These were the topics:

1. Approval of contraception
2. Approval of abortion
3. Weekly Mass attendance
4. Approval of same sex marriage
5. Percentage of income donated
6. Annual Confession among weekly Mass attendees
7. Fertility Rate

Results

Survey Question                     TLM                  TLM samples      NOM

1. Approve contraception        2%                    1,773                89%
2. Approve abortion                1%                     1,769               51%
3. Weekly Mass attendance  99%                     1,763              22%
4. Approve gay marriage          2%                    1,759               67%
5. Income % donated              6%                    1,702               1.2%
        Protestants                                        2.5%
All Christians during the Great Depression 3.3%
6. Ann. Confession and Weekly Mass           98%     1,753         25%
7. Fertility Rate 6                 6.0 1,085* 2.3

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/02/lex-orandi-lex-credendi-traditional.html#more

Maximilian

Thanks for posting this.
It's worth clicking the link and reading the accompanying material.
The slightly messed-up formatting is Rorate Caeli's fault, not yours.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/02/lex-orandi-lex-credendi-traditional.html#more

1. "Importantly, TLM families have a nearly 60% larger family size."

Faulty math. TLM families have a more than 250% larger family size, not 60% larger. (6.0 children vs 2.3 children)

2. "Finally, how well does the TLM retain young adults once they leave their parent's homes?   Rigorous study on these topics are planned for 2019-2020."

Looking forward to seeing these results. My bet is that the numbers will completely disprove the thesis of some (former) participants at this forum who like to claim that young traditional Catholics get turned off by their parents' "Jansenism" and leave the practice of the Faith.

St.Justin

I tried to fix but not much success.

"2. "Finally, how well does the TLM retain young adults once they leave their parent's homes?"

What I am seeing is that for what ever reason at least 50% of attendees are young families with the "60%"  birth rate so these are young people are staying with the Traditional Mass and more importantly with the Traditional Faith. It warms my heart to see all of the young families at Mass and the numbers seem to be growing.

Jacob

#3
If you want stuff to line up, you should use either [ code ] tags or use Courier New font.

       Able  Baker Charlie
X ray   1      2      3
Y rate  4      5      6
Z zoom  7      8      9


Best way is to put it in a text file, line it all up, then copy it over and put code tags around it.  Then clean up if needed, making sure spaces are all right.
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
--Neal Stephenson

Maximilian

Quote from: St.Justin on February 27, 2019, 09:06:53 AM

Results
Survey Question                     TLM         TLM samples      NOM

1. Approve contraception          2%           1,773                89%
2. Approve abortion                  1%           1,769               51%
3. Weekly Mass attendance      99%           1,763               22%
4. Approve gay marriage            2%          1,759               67%
5. Income % donated                6%           1,702               1.2%
                                                                  Protestants    2.5%
                            All Christians during Great Depression   3.3%
6. Annual Conf/Weekly Mass      98%          1,753               25%
7. Fertility Rate                        6.0             1,085*             2.3

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/02/lex-orandi-lex-credendi-traditional.html#more

Jacob


Survey Question                TLM          TLM samples      NOM
1. Approve contraception        2%             1,773         89%
2. Approve abortion             1%             1,769         51%
3. Weekly Mass attendance      99%             1,763         22%
4. Approve gay marriage         2%             1,759         67%
5. Income % donated             6%             1,702          1.2%
        Protestants                                           2.5%
All Christians during the Great Depression                    3.3%
6. Ann. Conf and Weekly Mass   98%             1,753         25%
7. Fertility Rate 6             6.0            1,085*         2.3
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
--Neal Stephenson

martin88nyc

I think those 2 percent accepting contraception and gay marriage and also 1 percent abortion were mistakenly included in the TLM crowd or just happened to attend TLM during one of the surveys
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Gardener

Quote from: martin88nyc on February 27, 2019, 12:46:32 PM
I think those 2 percent accepting contraception and gay marriage and also 1 percent abortion were mistakenly included in the TLM crowd or just happened to attend TLM during one of the surveys

You'd be surprised.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Sempronius

90% approve contraception..

I go to novus ordo and I've heard it mentioned approvingly a couple of times but seeing those figures is a punch from reality..

Josephine87

Quote from: Gardener on February 27, 2019, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on February 27, 2019, 12:46:32 PM
I think those 2 percent accepting contraception and gay marriage and also 1 percent abortion were mistakenly included in the TLM crowd or just happened to attend TLM during one of the surveys

You'd be surprised.

I'd like to know more. Is it people.who just like high liturgy but don't care about the moral side?
"Begin again." -St. Teresa of Avila

"My present trial seems to me a somewhat painful one, and I have the humiliation of knowing how badly I bore it at first. I now want to accept and to carry this little cross joyfully, to carry it silently, with a smile in my heart and on my lips, in union with the Cross of Christ. My God, blessed be Thou; accept from me each day the embarrassment, inconvenience, and pain this misery causes me. May it become a prayer and an act of reparation." -Elisabeth Leseur

The Harlequin King

Quote from: Josephine87 on February 27, 2019, 01:48:46 PM
Quote from: Gardener on February 27, 2019, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on February 27, 2019, 12:46:32 PM
I think those 2 percent accepting contraception and gay marriage and also 1 percent abortion were mistakenly included in the TLM crowd or just happened to attend TLM during one of the surveys

You'd be surprised.

I'd like to know more. Is it people.who just like high liturgy but don't care about the moral side?

I would say it's simply unlikely in any sector of life to get 100 people in a room and find they all agree 100% on any given issue. The 2% here might include, for example, the odd humanities professor at the local university who's a boomer liberal Catholic but has good taste and knows the Novus Ordo is an awful fabrication. He goes to the TLM because it's the only thing resembling the religion of his childhood but always ducks out right after without getting to know anyone in the community, maybe even doesn't ever receive Communion.

Perhaps more obviously, the 2% would naturally include the spouse who's just kind of along for the ride and goes to the church to keep the family together.

Xavier

#11
Thanks for posting this. Rorate has some good articles. This survey is more clear evidence that the TLM is the greatest bulwark of the Faith, and the future of the Church.

Rorate recently had another article that there are at least some 5,000 (probably 7000, they said) Priests who are now offering the Tridentine Mass. That's wonderful, and God willing, that number will increase to like 50,000 in another 10 years, and then 500,000 in 20.

Strictly speaking, especially after Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae, there's no reason any Priest can't begin to offer the TLM.

I've heard Priests decrying that even hours of Eucharistic Adoration outside Mass cannot solve problems of poor catechesis, bad formation, ignorance, indiffernce or even simple unbelief in basic Catholic doctrines from the laity. Well, it's quite plain the Tridentine Mass is the solution.

Edit: Last but not least, the Rorate article also says, "Preliminary studies by this author indicate that the TLM produces 7-8 times the number of Priestly and Religious vocations."
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

King Wenceslas

#12
Quote from: Maximilian on February 27, 2019, 09:51:50 AM
Thanks for posting this.
It's worth clicking the link and reading the accompanying material.
The slightly messed-up formatting is Rorate Caeli's fault, not yours.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/02/lex-orandi-lex-credendi-traditional.html#more

1. "Importantly, TLM families have a nearly 60% larger family size."

Faulty math. TLM families have a more than 250% larger family size, not 60% larger. (6.0 children vs 2.3 children)

2. "Finally, how well does the TLM retain young adults once they leave their parent's homes?   Rigorous study on these topics are planned for 2019-2020."

Looking forward to seeing these results. My bet is that the numbers will completely disprove the thesis of some (former) participants at this forum who like to claim that young traditional Catholics get turned off by their parents' "Jansenism" and leave the practice of the Faith.

The difference between the current societal Zeitgeist and real Catholic life is very glaring and for children it is hard for them to see the extreme dangers that lurk outside the Catholic home. Out of the 6, I would suspect one or two are lost to the world for some extended period of time statistically speaking. It happened to my youngest with horrifying consequences.

Danger is not picked up on by young adults until they literally have been kicked around by the world for a while.

TheReturnofLive

I hate to be that guy, and I know people will disagree with me,
But is it wrong to say "correlation without causation?"
You guys are assuming because there is a correlation between TLM and a greater sense of morality, that implies that TLM is the cause of that.
I don't think that's entirely true, just based on my knowledge on Soviet history and studying the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, as well as my own life experiences,

Roman Catholicism (Latin Rite Catholicism) is still attached to several different cultures, and even if the culture becomes atheistic, you won't easily detach Roman Catholicism in a ritualistic sense unless some other kind of system replaces it.

And as such, for people of those cultures, even if people don't practice it fully, they will still be Roman Catholic nominally and want to raise their kids as such, because even if they don't practice it fully, they still see it as a part of who they are.

Let me give you an example - one of my parents. That parent is a JPII Catholic who is religious, but isn't a zealout - and I remember taking her to a Ukrainian Catholic Mass - because at that time I was convinced of Catholicism and was dissatisfied with what my home church offered - and she got really offended at the idea of me wanting to go there regularly, and she started crying. It was like a rejection to her of what she raised me with, even though they are literally the same religion.

And I've seen this example elsewhere - Kim Kardashian is Armenian, and she has gone to Armenian Church Liturgies and even visited monasteries, simply because it's a part of who she is - Armenian and Armenian Orthodoxy. And one student in my class was from Moscow, and she told me a story about how her friend got Baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church without really knowing what they believed in or what they meant - but she did it because her friends were doing it.

Thus, the result is a ton of nominal cultural Catholics who don't really believe in all of it. The Latin Mass is a turn off to these people because it is an unnecessary barrier - the learning of a minimal understanding of Latin or having to read the translation and keep track of where you are - and it's also not synonymous with the culture of what they wish to identify with (most Irish Catholics go to Novus Ordo Masses instead of TLM).

For the Catholics who actually care about doctrine, they see TLM as more consistent with the historical tradition of the Roman Church and find value in that over the Novus Ordo, especially when there is great unpredictability with what to expect in a Novus Ordo Mass (from ad-orientem to rave Masses).

In summary, I think that it's not TLM which is causing such a disparity, it's the people who are causing such a disparity.

If it really was a consistent liturgical tradition that caused it, we should see such a great disparity with the Eastern Rite Catholics in terms of theology - but as I've pointed out, we don't, many Eastern Catholic Bishops are just Pope Francis ideologues.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

TheReturnofLive

I mean, I did a short presentation recently on Christian iconography in WW2 propaganda, and I find it amazing the fact that the Soviet Union appropriated Christian imagery and gave it a secular coat of paint, because it shows how Eastern Orthodoxy became attached to the culture of Russia.







"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis