Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?

Started by Xavier, December 21, 2017, 10:20:35 AM

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The Harlequin King

Quote from: King Wenceslas on April 26, 2018, 01:40:19 PM
Shucks, will have to wait until women are "ordained" to officially break with Rome. Bummer. Can we break with ordination of women deacons? Or do we have to wait until they start worshiping the devil?

There is no relation between married priests (which have existed since the Apostles) and female clergy (which is a sacramental impossibility).

Prayerful

If this rigged synod opens, it appears that Cardinal Hummes and the rest of Team Bergoglio are plotting a radical attack on the priesthood, even in its weakened Conciliar form, not just a modification of a discipline. Ministering to Amazon basin is not remotely the aim. When a bishop proposed that missionary orders be asked to send maybe or two of their priests to help, Cardinal Hummes was visibility annoyed, stating that this was not what the Leader wanted.

Quote
Cardinal Hummes reacted visibly excited and said: "No, no," that was not what the Pope wanted. After the council there should be no more missionaries. Every people must evangelise alone. There should only be a local clergy, only more native priests and bishops, even without academic education.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

Older Salt

just ontologically cannot happen
like trying to turn water into a rock
no matter what they say, nothing happens.
Stay away from the near occasion of sin

Unless one is deeply attached to the Blessed Virgin Mary, now in time, it impossible to attain salvation.

LausTibiChriste

I hope this Synod goes off the rails. I'm sick to death of this grey area. Draw the line in the sand already for crying out loud.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

"Nobody is under any moral obligation of duty or loyalty to a state run by sexual perverts who are trying to destroy public morals."
- MaximGun

"Not trusting your government doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it means you're a history buff"

Communism is as American as Apple Pie

Prayerful

I mostly hope it doesn't happen, that this campaign of insult ends. Bergoglio was installed to do harm, and to protect his lewd and dishonest friends. I hope this ends. There have been morally depraved Popes, like Julius III, mentally disturbed Popes like Urban VI, politicians or lords with little of the priest in them, doctrinally dubious Popes like Honorius or John XXII, but the Argentine seems to combine the stench of lewdness with a relentless hatred for devotion, as evidence by Gaudete et Exsultate and actions like pulling apart the joined handed of an altar boy, who put his hands back together when Francis moved on.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

kayla_veronica

Quote from: King Wenceslas on April 26, 2018, 01:40:19 PM
Shucks, will have to wait until women are "ordained" to officially break with Rome. Bummer. Can we break with ordination of women deacons? Or do we have to wait until they start worshiping the devil?

Those who want to explain it away will find a way to do so.
May the most holy, most sacred, most adorable,
most incomprehensible and ineffable Name of God
be forever praised, blessed, loved, adored
and glorified in Heaven, on earth,
and under the earth,
by all the creatures of God,
and by the Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ,
in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.
Amen.

lauermar

"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)

lauermar

Quote from: The Harlequin King on April 26, 2018, 09:01:01 AM
Quote from: lauermar on April 25, 2018, 09:44:12 PM
In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

It's worth remarking here that priests aren't bound to celebrate Mass daily. Some do not. Others may celebrate daily only as a means for providing daily Mass at their parishes. A priest is, however, bound to pray the Divine Office daily.

As others have remarked, married priests of the Eastern rite don't typically celebrate the Divine Liturgy every day.

And so not having a celibate priest available to say liturgy every day is is a good thing?  The church will be filled with weekend-only married guys who are off taking care of wives, kids and jobs. As if that doesn't compromise the practice of the faith?

I can't believe someone asked me why celibacy is necessary before saying mass. It isn't me who doubts the sacrificial nature of mass; rather, it is the one who asked me why.
"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)

aquinas138

Quote from: lauermar on April 28, 2018, 05:42:10 AM
Quote from: The Harlequin King on April 26, 2018, 09:01:01 AM
Quote from: lauermar on April 25, 2018, 09:44:12 PM
In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

It's worth remarking here that priests aren't bound to celebrate Mass daily. Some do not. Others may celebrate daily only as a means for providing daily Mass at their parishes. A priest is, however, bound to pray the Divine Office daily.

As others have remarked, married priests of the Eastern rite don't typically celebrate the Divine Liturgy every day.

And so not having a celibate priest available to say liturgy every day is is a good thing?  The church will be filled with weekend-only married guys who are off taking care of wives, kids and jobs. As if that doesn't compromise the practice of the faith?

I can't believe someone asked me why celibacy is necessary before saying mass. It isn't me who doubts the sacrificial nature of mass; rather, it is the one who asked me why.

In the interest of accuracy, celibacy canonically refers to the state of being unmarried, whereas continence refers to refraining from the marital act. Not to nitpick – it is certainly used that way you do in common speech.

No one said not having liturgy daily is a good thing. Many Eastern customs developed in times when the number of priests was enormous; for Heaven's sake, the Byzantine rite of Holy Unction (Anointing of the Sick) envisions *seven priests* to administer. What is being said is that married priests are not, in and of themselves, heralds of the destruction of Catholicism, as they have existed in the Eastern rites since the beginning of the Church, and have existed exceptionally in the Latin rite before Vatican II, as well. In any event, if there are more priests than there are currently, a church could have daily liturgy without having every priest say Mass daily.

As for sexual continence before the liturgy, the Eastern churches are strict on this point, as they are also diligent about reminding laity that they should abstain before receiving Communion as well. Obviously there's no reasonable way to enforce it, but there's also no way to prevent a Latin-rite priest from breaking his vow before administering the sacraments, as we all know happens and has happened from the beginning. In either case, we're not Donatists.

The real issue, I think, is a practical one. The Latin Church is not culturally set up to support married priests on a large scale. Priests are not highly paid, though they are often provided with housing. Medical care is a large cost; will dioceses offer insurance to priestly families? Supporting married priests obviously can be done – it has been done in the Christian East literally since the beginning of the Church – but there would need to be some fundamental practical changes.
What shall we call you, O full of grace? * Heaven? for you have shone forth the Sun of Righteousness. * Paradise? for you have brought forth the Flower of immortality. * Virgin? for you have remained incorrupt. * Pure Mother? for you have held in your holy embrace your Son, the God of all. * Entreat Him to save our souls.

Gardener

Quote from: lauermar on April 28, 2018, 05:42:10 AM
Quote from: The Harlequin King on April 26, 2018, 09:01:01 AM
Quote from: lauermar on April 25, 2018, 09:44:12 PM
In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

It's worth remarking here that priests aren't bound to celebrate Mass daily. Some do not. Others may celebrate daily only as a means for providing daily Mass at their parishes. A priest is, however, bound to pray the Divine Office daily.

As others have remarked, married priests of the Eastern rite don't typically celebrate the Divine Liturgy every day.

And so not having a celibate priest available to say liturgy every day is is a good thing?  The church will be filled with weekend-only married guys who are off taking care of wives, kids and jobs. As if that doesn't compromise the practice of the faith?

I can't believe someone asked me why celibacy is necessary before saying mass. It isn't me who doubts the sacrificial nature of mass; rather, it is the one who asked me why.

No... the problem is that you *seem* to be conflating the holiness of the celebrant with the validity of the Sacrament. That's Donatism.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

lauermar

We are not the East. If the Latin church allowed rare exception for married priests it was with good reason! Let the East adopt the more rigorous standard of the Latin.  They probably won't. So let their leadership answer to God about that one day. That's their business.

A married man cannot keep continent to say mass 7 days a week. It would be incompatible with the ends of marriage. Since we don't need 7 men to say mass, then having daily mass available for propiation of the multitude of sins against God here is a good and necessary thing. Let the East answer to God for requiring 7 men for a sacrament so it imposes a burden against offering it more frequently.

Married men are simply too divided in balancing home life, work and earthly pursuits to give 110% of themselves to God. The closer you get to Him, the more He demands of your time and attention. More so if you're His vicar on earth.

Has anyone forgotten that married Catholic men quietly contracept and divorce at the same rate as non-Catholics?  Why else do you think Bergoglio speaks softly on discipline regarding these things.

We don't need married priests. If they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass. A continent priest is necessary. That's why the exception for a married man was historically rare.

"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)

Kreuzritter

QuoteIf they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass.

Now you don't merely seem to be be saying it; you've explicitly stated it.

But this goes beyond Donatism into claiming that a priest can somehow cease - at least temporarily - to be a priest ("Otherwise they wouldn't be priests"). So much for that indelible mark.

The mind boggles at the self-made doctrines some of you concoct for yourselves.

aquinas138

Quote from: lauermar on April 29, 2018, 08:53:00 AM
We are not the East. If the Latin church allowed rare exception for married priests it was with good reason! Let the East adopt the more rigorous standard of the Latin.  They probably won't. So let their leadership answer to God about that one day. That's their business.

A married man cannot keep continent to say mass 7 days a week. It would be incompatible with the ends of marriage. Since we don't need 7 men to say mass, then having daily mass available for propiation of the multitude of sins against God here is a good and necessary thing. Let the East answer to God for requiring 7 men for a sacrament so it imposes a burden against offering it more frequently.

Married men are simply too divided in balancing home life, work and earthly pursuits to give 110% of themselves to God. The closer you get to Him, the more He demands of your time and attention. More so if you're His vicar on earth.

Has anyone forgotten that married Catholic men quietly contracept and divorce at the same rate as non-Catholics?  Why else do you think Bergoglio speaks softly on discipline regarding these things.

We don't need married priests. If they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass. A continent priest is necessary. That's why the exception for a married man was historically rare.

I'm not saying the Latin Church should adopt Eastern praxis; I'm saying were it to do so, it is not the end of Catholicism. Roman Catholics sometimes speak as if it is an ontological impossibility to have married priests, despite the fact that there have always been such, and even married bishops for several centuries. Generally speaking, I think the West should be the West, and the East should be the East, though there are areas in which I think our perspective towards the Christian East (and the Orthodox perspective of the Catholic West) have been somewhat deformed after living apart for 1000 years in a state of general acrimony.
What shall we call you, O full of grace? * Heaven? for you have shone forth the Sun of Righteousness. * Paradise? for you have brought forth the Flower of immortality. * Virgin? for you have remained incorrupt. * Pure Mother? for you have held in your holy embrace your Son, the God of all. * Entreat Him to save our souls.

Livenotonevil

Quote from: aquinas138 on April 29, 2018, 01:43:53 PM
Quote from: lauermar on April 29, 2018, 08:53:00 AM
We are not the East. If the Latin church allowed rare exception for married priests it was with good reason! Let the East adopt the more rigorous standard of the Latin.  They probably won't. So let their leadership answer to God about that one day. That's their business.

A married man cannot keep continent to say mass 7 days a week. It would be incompatible with the ends of marriage. Since we don't need 7 men to say mass, then having daily mass available for propiation of the multitude of sins against God here is a good and necessary thing. Let the East answer to God for requiring 7 men for a sacrament so it imposes a burden against offering it more frequently.

Married men are simply too divided in balancing home life, work and earthly pursuits to give 110% of themselves to God. The closer you get to Him, the more He demands of your time and attention. More so if you're His vicar on earth.

Has anyone forgotten that married Catholic men quietly contracept and divorce at the same rate as non-Catholics?  Why else do you think Bergoglio speaks softly on discipline regarding these things.

We don't need married priests. If they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass. A continent priest is necessary. That's why the exception for a married man was historically rare.

I'm not saying the Latin Church should adopt Eastern praxis; I'm saying were it to do so, it is not the end of Catholicism. Roman Catholics sometimes speak as if it is an ontological impossibility to have married priests, despite the fact that there have always been such, and even married bishops for several centuries. Generally speaking, I think the West should be the West, and the East should be the East, though there are areas in which I think our perspective towards the Christian East (and the Orthodox perspective of the Catholic West) have been somewhat deformed after living apart for 1000 years in a state of general acrimony.

Even the Bible (1 Timothy 3) makes mention of married bishops, but over time, it made more practical sense to forbid the practice, especially considering the properties that the Bishops "technically" owned that they could give to their kids.
May God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

The Harlequin King

Quote from: lauermar on April 28, 2018, 05:42:10 AMAnd so not having a celibate priest available to say liturgy every day is is a good thing?  The church will be filled with weekend-only married guys who are off taking care of wives, kids and jobs. As if that doesn't compromise the practice of the faith?

Umm.... no, that's definitely not what I'm saying. Rather, that it's better to have a married priest to offer Mass on a Sunday than no priest at all, as is the case in many places. Interestingly, the only TLM in the entire state of Delaware is celebrated most usually by a married priest (a former Lutheran pastor). Apparently all those celibate priests can't be bothered to learn the old rite, but an ex-Protestant can.

This image is appropriate to my reaction, though:



QuoteI can't believe someone asked me why celibacy is necessary before saying mass. It isn't me who doubts the sacrificial nature of mass; rather, it is the one who asked me why.

You mean continence. However, the celebrant engaging in sexual activity before Mass (whether in or even out of marriage) doesn't make a Mass invalid. That would be heresy to suggest such.