I wrote it off as the typical flu deal (SARS / MERS). Not as bad as ebola but expect 1000 old people to die in foreign countries. Those not following it is a new coronovirus. However there is video after video of Chinese just keeling over and face planting. Don't we have a Chinese based dude on here? What's the scoop? Don't post if it will get you in trouble.
Interesting story on Zerohedge that there is a level 4 bio research lab where this started. It could be a weaponized SARS got out of the lab. Go to DEFCON 3. Monitor news reports and prepare for DEFCON 2 (start stocking food at that point). We'll know soon enough.
A supposed twitter video. Let's see if this works:
https://t.co/6O2ai7mD5h (https://t.co/6O2ai7mD5h)
Works for me. Here's some more video:
https://t.co/6O2ai7mD5h (https://t.co/6O2ai7mD5h)
https://t.co/fGU833RWfk (https://t.co/fGU833RWfk)
Going by official reports and numbers, the virus doesn't seem particularly awful. But there is a disconnect here, because the Chinese have also just quarantined a city of over 10 million people. If the official information is fully accurate this would seem like an overreaction. I mean I'm pretty sure that a quarantine of that scale is unprecedented in history. Besides which, the unofficial information leaking from that city is that the virus is incredibly contagious - with large numbers of hospital staff falling ill - and that the unofficial death toll is higher. In brief, pay attention to this one.
Quote from: james03 on January 23, 2020, 07:05:48 PM
A supposed twitter video. Let's see if this works:
https://t.co/6O2ai7mD5h (https://t.co/6O2ai7mD5h)
Most of those people don't exactly look desperate for care, and since hospitals are obviously hot zones for spreading disease, I'd call this video a lesson in what not to do during a pandemic.
Looks like the "official" mortality rate is, call it, 5%. IF this is true, we have a new flu that will be dangerous to old people. I agree, locking down now 5 CITIES shows this to be contagious. Let's hope it's just flu and not a big killer.
Anyone have a "feeling" about this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-bcPD6Mjs4
Quote from: MaximGun on January 24, 2020, 06:24:54 AM
Anyone have a "feeling" about this one?
It's doubtful even the Chinese can build a 100,000 bed hospital in a week.
That's going to be a quarantine camp.
One would be faced with a very difficult task if they were asked to rate which one of Dr. Pierce's books were
more prescient, The Turner Diaries, Hunter, or Serpent's Walk.
(https://i.imgur.com/zY9UtRv.jpg)
Worth a read:
https://off-guardian.org/2020/01/24/reality-check-coronavirus-fear-porn/
We'll see what happens obviously.
Quote from: Jacob on January 24, 2020, 11:40:07 AM
Worth a read:
https://off-guardian.org/2020/01/24/reality-check-coronavirus-fear-porn/
We'll see what happens obviously.
Yes, I think that's sensible. Obvious hard for those affected, but on a global scale, this is nothing.
QuoteYes, I think that's sensible. Obvious hard for those affected, but on a global scale, this is nothing.
Too early to call. From what we know the 5% mortality rate points to it killing old people only. So it's basically the flu. That would suck, but not be a disaster.
The fact that China is quarantining 30MM people, on the other hand, makes you pause.
DEFCON 3. Monitor the situation, and have a plan in place for DEFCON 2.
NOTE: 3 cases now in the US. We'll get more reliable mortality numbers from these cases. If all 3 leave the hospital in a week, then we're looking at a flu type bug.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPKk204nOTk[/yt]
This used to scare the shit out of me when I was a child.
99% chance this is just being hyped by the 24/7 news feed. Too much fear porn and not enough facts.
Quote from: james03 on January 24, 2020, 01:01:12 PM
QuoteYes, I think that's sensible. Obvious hard for those affected, but on a global scale, this is nothing.
Too early to call. From what we know the 5% mortality rate points to it killing old people only. So it's basically the flu. That would suck, but not be a disaster.
The fact that China is quarantining 30MM people, on the other hand, makes you pause.
DEFCON 3. Monitor the situation, and have a plan in place for DEFCON 2.
NOTE: 3 cases now in the US. We'll get more reliable mortality numbers from these cases. If all 3 leave the hospital in a week, then we're looking at a flu type bug.
One case in Chicago? We're going to Costco today. What are some items that should be de rigueur?
The situation is very unclear. My family is taking extreme caution here in Hong Kong, but most people on the street seem to not care much. There are many posts on Weibo (Chinese Twitter) which say the hospital situation is dire and that many are dying, but who knows if these are true or not.
The massive quarantine could be because the disease is truly disastrous. Or it could be because they want to show the world that they are responsible in tackling the problem.
This virus broke out before CNY which is the worst timing imaginable. There are about half a billion trips taken during this 1 week period. And these are not just domestic trips, this is the top season for Chinese to go to Europe, Japan, America, Australia, NZ, and what not. By comparison, SARS first entered HK about 3 weeks after CNY 2003, and so it was being spread in a normal travel time, not during the hyper active CNY week.
I suspect that this will be a major illness that will leave an impression like SARS, but not yet clear if it has the power to be a new Spanish Flu.
N95 masks are sold out on Amazon. I've got some here and more on the way, and placed a backorder for a lot more in case this is the big one (i.e. a new Spanish Flu).
Edit: HK has canceled all schools until at least Feb 17th which is a positive step, but also indicates their great concern. The HK government absolutely hates canceling anything because the tycoons run the city and detest anything that slows down their money grab. So for them to cancel the schools for so long is, I think, an indicator of what the insiders know and are reacting to.
What are shipping times/costs like from the US to HK? I could see if I can source some masks locally for you if the timing/cost is something you wouldn't find prohibitive.
Yes it's the reaction of the government that's scaring me, I've never worried about the latest scare but then again it's unprecedented territory when you see cities shut down at a great financial cost to those in charge.
Poor Chinese really suffer terribly as a race, MAO/communism/one child policy/workers abuses/poverty.
(https://i.imgur.com/919LcTN.jpg)
Good take by that Cheeky Coot, Derbyshire:
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/america-catches-coronavirus-panic/
Quote from: Heinrich on January 25, 2020, 10:05:31 AM
Good take by that Cheeky Coot, Derbyshire:
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/america-catches-coronavirus-panic/
This take is dead wrong. Potential pandemics are a kind of risk that's vastly ameliorated by public concern and swift action. Being beaten by a Chinese prison guard may currently be causing more deaths, but it's a health risk that doesnt have the potential to spread geometrically across the globe in a matter of months. Comparing the two makes him look dumb.
QuoteOne case in Chicago? We're going to Costco today. What are some items that should be de rigueur?
Premature to stock up. I'd use it as a recon mission. Make a note of what cases of canned foods you'd want to buy. IF we go to DEFCON 2, then food, masks, and hand sanitizer for starters.
The primary marker is the mortality rate. So far that's holding at around 5%. IF that holds, we're dealing with a contagious flu. Be concerned about elderly relatives and babies, but if you get it, you'll be stuck in bed for a week, and that will be the limit of it.
IF the mortality rate starts climbing, then you start stocking up. Because we know this crap is contagious.
Also, if you have an infant, then IF this starts taking off, you quarantine mama and baby to the house, and you sanitize carefully when you come home from work.
Davis, appreciate the intel. Keep us posted. Thanks.
Research homeopathic meds which had success with the Spanish flu. It is interesting that the FDA is thinking about restricting them. No coincidence there...
Quote from: Lynne on January 25, 2020, 02:24:32 PM
Research homeopathic meds which had success with the Spanish flu. It is interesting that the FDA is thinking about restricting them. No coincidence there...
Lynn do you use homeopathy? I thought it was "evil" after finding out who is the father of this medicine. A traditional British Web Store sell homeopathic and there is a lady online who wrote lots about doctors who treated popes with homeopathic medicine. I don;t know what to think about it anymore.
This article from LiveLeak showed coronavirus patients being transported in plastic boxes and tubes. The video was accompanied by lewd ads so I had to delete it.
Quote from: Graham on January 25, 2020, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on January 25, 2020, 10:05:31 AM
Good take by that Cheeky Coot, Derbyshire:
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/america-catches-coronavirus-panic/
This take is dead wrong. Potential pandemics are a kind of risk that's vastly ameliorated by public concern and swift action. Being beaten by a Chinese prison guard may currently be causing more deaths, but it's a health risk that doesnt have the potential to spread geometrically across the globe in a matter of months. Comparing the two makes him look dumb.
Maybe you should write for Unz.com.
Quote from: Heinrich on January 25, 2020, 04:49:56 PM
Quote from: Graham on January 25, 2020, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on January 25, 2020, 10:05:31 AM
Good take by that Cheeky Coot, Derbyshire:
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/america-catches-coronavirus-panic/
This take is dead wrong. Potential pandemics are a kind of risk that's vastly ameliorated by public concern and swift action. Being beaten by a Chinese prison guard may currently be causing more deaths, but it's a health risk that doesnt have the potential to spread geometrically across the globe in a matter of months. Comparing the two makes him look dumb.
Maybe you should write for Unz.com.
Ron Unz has turned down people far smarter than me. Do you remember the poster Man of the West on CathInfo? He comments prolifically on Unz under the name Intelligent Dasein, and has been turned down multiple times. He's brilliant, original, and a tremendously good writer. I dont exactly know what kind of stable Ron has built but ive noticed it generally excludes those qualities
Gardener,
Thank you for the offer. Our family has basically quarantined ourselves at home in an abundance of caution except for walks outside (where there are few people). I am going to work from home now, as such our N95 mask usage is very limited for the time being and I have enough at the moment, but I will keep your offer in mind in case it becomes necessary. We've stockpiled some normal food and last year (due to the riots) I bought several weeks' worth of Mountain House. I think this week I will go stockpile a lot more just in case.
If this is a new SARS it will be burn hot but fast. The killer time of SARS was only 2-3 months and fairly contained. But if its a new Spanish Flu then we're in for a year+ long struggle and the whole world will suffer. Right now there does not seem to be a need for Americans to stockpile, but if we get indicators that this will be like the new Spanish Flu then everyone needs to prepare.
Xi Jinping warned that the situation is getting much worse. The Western media is notorious for overhyping everything so the odds are against this being true, but I suspect the situation is worse than the media says.
On the positive side, a mainland independent reporter traveled into Wuhan on CNY Eve night and has shown videos of the city and hospital (that night) looking very orderly and calm. But given the timing it'd be like reporting from the trenches on Christmas morning that there was no war going on. I'll keep an eye on him. Another positive is that the viruses apparently often mutate to become less deadly once they go human-to-human transmission (although it takes time for this mutation).
I think this winter was a real bad one for viruses. Here on SD we had several very frightening illnesses from the Prayer Forum, there is the Ash Shorley case in Thailand, the Wuhan virus of course, and also a general persistent cold that many around the world seem to be suffering from.
Man who pushed SARS dud now pushing new Chinese virus
by Jon Rappoport
January 24, 2020
First, a few updates. Things are moving fast.
The Chinese government has locked down Wuhan, a city of 11 million people, owing to the "threat of the coronavirus." There are also travel restrictions in several other Chinese cities. What does all this prove?
Answer: Nothing.
It proves the Chinese government wants to install tighter controls. It doesn't lead to the conclusion that a coronavirus is making people sick or killing them.
During the so-called Zika Virus crisis of 2016, women in several countries were told not to get pregnant, because the virus might cause brain damage in their babies. That was a form of lockdown, too. If it were instituted for good reason, we would now be seeing massive numbers of babies all over the world born with microcephaly (smaller heads and brain damage), as the virus spreads. We aren't seeing that. I covered the Zika story extensively, and proved it was a scientific fraud. A dud.
The measures government authorities enact do not constitute proof of a harmful virus. Otherwise, presidents and kings could write science all day long simply by issuing orders.
We are now seeing photos of "people lying in the street" in Wuhan, and perhaps other Chinese cities, so-called victims of the coronavirus. What does this prove?
Answer: Nothing.
So far, I've seen pictures of four or five people lying in the street or on a hospital floor. In a city of 11 million people. If this, all by itself, were proof that a new coronavirus is a killer, then Los Angeles and New York—with their homeless street populations—would have no people left.
The text of a patent for a coronavirus is circulating wide and far on the Web. What does this prove?
Answer: Nothing.
Patents for many viruses are obtained all the time. More specifically, these patents discuss ways of weakening viruses or extracting material from them for the purposes of developing vaccines. I've read excerpts from two different coronavirus patents, one in the US and one in the UK. They both refer to vaccine development. They aren't, as some people assume, slam-dunk evidence that researchers are cooking up a virus in a lab or weaponizing it.
Well, here is a comforting development. The Chinese researcher, Zhong Nanshan, who "discovered the SARS virus" in 2003, is now at the forefront of pronouncements about the "new coronavirus" that is shaking up China and other parts of the world.
His mere presence on the scene is a warning sign: take a grain of salt, try a pound.
Zhong Nanshan's 2003 SARS "pandemic" was a dud. A WHO (World Health Organization) advisory against traveling to "infected" Toronto cost merchants in the city several billion dollars. Meanwhile, a Canadian WHO biologist, Frank Plummer, told the press he was shocked by the fact that fewer and fewer SARS patients had the virus in their bodies. Actually, "fewer and fewer," he said, was approaching ZERO. Hoax. THE PURPORTED CAUSE OF THE DISEASE WASN'T THERE. People had ordinary flu symptoms.
What do you do when this sort of embarrassment occurs? Do you confess the whole business was a mistake or a con or a hustle? Do you own up to the fact that, when people are said to be suffering from ordinary flu symptoms, and you're calling it a new disease with a new cause, you're wrong and you're very, very, very sorry? Do you point out that people who don't have the cause of a new disease in their bodies don't have the new disease?
Of course not. You just move ahead and pray no one notices.
When you claim the grand death total from the SARS "epidemic," worldwide, is 800 out of seven billion, and you can't even prove those 800 died from the "SARS virus," do you, the World Health Organization, admit your whole program of epidemic detection is a fraud? Do you pay Toronto several billion dollars for their troubles?
Of course not. You keep calling SARS an epidemic forever. You write fake histories. You do whatever is necessary to maintain your phony reputation.
And when a new possible-maybe-could-be virus surfaces in China, now, you bring the same researcher who "discovered SARS" out of mothballs, and you put him front and center.
Here's the capper. Read carefully. The World Health Organization claims that, every year, there are between three and five million cases of ordinary run-of-the-mill flu in the world, resulting in 290,000 to 650,000 deaths. The symptoms are indistinguishable from SARS. But for some reason, they don't declare ordinary flu an ongoing epidemic. No, they choose SARS, for which the cause is absent—and they call THAT an epidemic. It caused 800 deaths, versus 290,000-650,000 deaths.
Does this make any kind of sense? Actually, it does, if they want to: increase control over the population; condition them to expect and pray for a (watch-out TOXIC) vaccine to save them; shoot up pharmaceutical profits; scare the pants off people; induce them to willingly accept greater surveillance wherever they go; step up police and military presence; enact quarantines; hypnotize populations with the idea that they're lifelong patients under the supervision of the medical cartel; teach "safety and security" above freedom.
Just realize how right and good and true THE AUTHORITIES are, get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars they're here protecting the health of everyone on the planet. They're the Church of Biological Mysticism, and they want you as a devoted member.
Amen.
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/01/24/man-who-pushed-sars-dud-now-pushing-new-chinese-virus/
Quote from: Graham on January 25, 2020, 05:00:14 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on January 25, 2020, 04:49:56 PM
Quote from: Graham on January 25, 2020, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on January 25, 2020, 10:05:31 AM
Good take by that Cheeky Coot, Derbyshire:
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/america-catches-coronavirus-panic/
This take is dead wrong. Potential pandemics are a kind of risk that's vastly ameliorated by public concern and swift action. Being beaten by a Chinese prison guard may currently be causing more deaths, but it's a health risk that doesnt have the potential to spread geometrically across the globe in a matter of months. Comparing the two makes him look dumb.
Maybe you should write for Unz.com.
Ron Unz has turned down people far smarter than me. Do you remember the poster Man of the West on CathInfo? He comments prolifically on Unz under the name Intelligent Dasein, and has been turned down multiple times. He's brilliant, original, and a tremendously good writer. I dont exactly know what kind of stable Ron has built but ive noticed it generally excludes those qualities
"Dasein" is German existence or being. With a name like that, he has to be good.
Wait, Davis lives in Hong Kong?
Yes, I've been in China since 2009.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on January 25, 2020, 07:08:43 PM
Yes, I've been in China since 2009.
https://giphy.com/gifs/shocked-dumb-and-dumber-no-way-13AlEjfx6ej7aM
Quote from: christulsa on January 25, 2020, 10:24:27 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on January 25, 2020, 07:08:43 PM
Yes, I've been in China since 2009.
https://giphy.com/gifs/shocked-dumb-and-dumber-no-way-13AlEjfx6ej7aM
[gifv]https://i.imgur.com/KaewNev.gifv[/gifv]
I think that was just how they took selfies in the dinosaur age.
tin foil hat for the heck of it :)
its a dummy run for the real population cull
generate a vaccine to make billionaires trillionaires
cause a frenzy for the population to get brainwashed that the state is our saviour
any others?
On a side note, David, I had that flu over Christmas and still have remnants, an itch which shows up on hands and feet, mouth, crevices such as corner of the eye, nostril fold etc . I'll pray for your family today at mass and I am asking Our Lady of China (I'm guessing there is a title) .
Quote from: martin88nyc on January 25, 2020, 04:06:46 PM
Quote from: Lynne on January 25, 2020, 02:24:32 PM
Research homeopathic meds which had success with the Spanish flu. It is interesting that the FDA is thinking about restricting them. No coincidence there...
Lynn do you use homeopathy? I thought it was "evil" after finding out who is the father of this medicine. A traditional British Web Store sell homeopathic and there is a lady online who wrote lots about doctors who treated popes with homeopathic medicine. I don;t know what to think about it anymore.
There's a Catholic woman who is a homeopath. She's not new-agey or anything. Here's her website...
https://joettecalabrese.com/ (https://joettecalabrese.com/)
I have found it to be very helpful.
QuoteOn a side note, David, I had that flu over Christmas and still have remnants, an itch which shows up on hands and feet, mouth, crevices such as corner of the eye, nostril fold etc . I'll pray for your family today at mass and I am asking Our Lady of China (I'm guessing there is a title) .
Diaduit,
Indeed there is. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_China
Thank you for your prayers. I am glad that you continue to recover - it sounded very frightening. I think there were abnormally severe viruses this winter.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3047720/chinese-premier-li-keqiang-head-coronavirus-crisis-team-outbreak
QuoteWang Jiangping, China's vice-minister of industry and information technology, said China had the capacity to produce a maximum of 30,000 protective outfits per day, but that was less than a third of what was needed in Hubei.
The government was working to acquire the 50,000 protective jackets China produces for export every day to send to Hubei, he said.
You can expect a worldwide shortage of medical protective gear if this drags on. As I noted before n95 is already on backorder on Amazon. If anyone is concerned that this will be a new Spanish Flu then I recommend taking a proactive step in case supplies are very limited later. Of course if nothing comes of this all then maybe you'll be stuck with a bunch of unnecessary masks.
Doctors say that transmission is through nose, mouth and eyes. So consider wrap around glasses if you feel that you are in an infected area. The virus incubation period is 14 days and, unlike SARS, it is contagious from day 1. In other words, there are carriers walking around infecting everyone else for 2 weeks before their first symptoms show. Given this and the immense response of China (they've basically declared a nationwide emergency that has never been seen before), I think this is shaping up to be a global problem. Thus far the deaths seem to be mostly in the age 40+ range [primarily elderly], but there is not really enough data yet.
My prediction: in about 2-4 weeks there will be a rapid increase in cases in places like America [east & west coast, Chicago, Detroit], Europe, Canada, Australia & Japan (the places Chinese tourists just flew to a couple days ago).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA5AbqlCHuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRkDD7Qkrp8
Let me know Davis if I can source you some boxes of Kleenex. They're on sale here in T-town at Aldis. :patriot: May not get there until mid February just so you knows. Any locals here can join me to bug out to a cave of undisclosed location out by Clear Creek monastery (that part is no joke) when this pandemic sweeps across the US. :P :)
Remember this one that never met the hype:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic
Then there's the Canadian angle,
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/did-china-steal-coronavirus-canada-and-weaponize-it
Remember the number one data point: mortality rate. Currently at around 5%, which is promising.
This crap is contagious and it got out. We are now at 5 cases in the US. Trump really needs to shut down air traffic to China, but that won't happen for awhile.
It's definitely in the U.S. You might start base loading with zinc and selenium right now. Cold-eze or the generic variant are a good source of bio-available zinc.
I think we're going to be alright. Judging from the loads of food buckets we unloaded for G from his moving van, the fact the local Filipino guy in charge of mailing balikbayan boxes (big boxes you load with American food, etc to send cheap to the Philippines) full of canned goods is in cognito, and 03's surplus of fine wine behind his sandwich board, I think we'll survive. At least in Oklahoma.
In all seriousness, question: can we make our own masks to protect us from this virus? The odds at this point are so low I'm still skeptical of the seriousness of it, but if the Great Chastisement arrives in a few weeks, very few will have those masks or access to them.
Quote from: christulsa on January 26, 2020, 05:00:21 PM
I think we're going to be alright. Judging from the loads of food buckets we unloaded for G from his moving van, the fact the local Filipino guy in charge of mailing balikbayan boxes (big boxes you load with American food, etc to send cheap to the Philippines) full of canned goods is in cognito, and 03's surplus of fine wine behind his sandwich board, I think we'll survive. At least in Oklahoma.
In all seriousness, question: can we make our own masks to protect us from this virus? The odds at this point are so low I'm still skeptical of the seriousness of it, but if the Great Chastisement arrives in a few weeks, very few will have those masks or access to them.
I don't think you should be sharing this information online.
Just noting that the mortality rate is not really known now because of the way the math works and fog of war.
For example, let's imagine it takes one month for the pneumonia to kill a person and its 100% mortality rate. The first person infected incubates it for 2 weeks and spreads the virus, unknowingly, to 10 people. By the time 2 weeks rolls around and he is officially the first confirmed case of coronavorus, there are actually 11 true cases. In 2 more weeks those 10 incubators infect 10 more each. So after 4 weeks we now have 11 confirmed cases and finally Patient Zero passes, leading to one fatality. But we cannot just divide 1 by 11 and say the mortality rate is 9%. It is yet unknown as the other 110 simply haven't had it long enough to die from it. [my point is to show the math complication, not to suggest it is anywhere near 100%]
Also the fog of war makes the data all bad. There are many insider reports saying Wuhan hospitals have for more than a week been turning people away. Also the death count comes from a not credible source.
What we can know is that the top leadership is taking the most extreme actions they've ever made.
But I do pray this is the usual overblown hype.
That Gardener has buckets of stored food? Lol You thanked me for helping the guy move. Online. It ain't like anyone is going to find out who "Gardener" is and come knockin down his door once everyone turns to zombies. You guys.
In general, one shouldn't share specific preparatory info of others, pseudonymous or not.
However, I no longer have those after one of the local folks I met expressed interest in "prepping". He needed what I had and I was able to shift that into some bathroom remodel funds with the upcoming joblessness in mind. I only kept enough for an ice storm or something.
Fair enough
Get your Jim Bakker Food Buckets! ;D
https://youtu.be/ZtGYl3rrDsc
China has extended CNY holiday by three days to delay the mass migration back into the cities. All schools nationwide are also closed "until further notice."
To give a bit of background on Chinese holidays, the government is so anti-holiday that they actually rearrange the calendar so as to not really give extra days off. For example, if there is a three working day holiday in the middle of the week, they simply make the following Saturday, Sunday and next Satirday all work / school days. So rather than a nice holiday of bonus rest, you get long 10+ day long work / school weeks without any rest to compensate for that holiday.
In that light, them extending holidays is yet another major move for them. Especially nationwide closure of schools "until further notice." Mongolia has fully closed its border with China and closed schools until early March.
Again, the top level government is acting as if this were a new Japanese invasion.
Quote from: christulsa on January 26, 2020, 06:50:27 PM
That Gardener has buckets of stored food? Lol You thanked me for helping the guy move. Online. It ain't like anyone is going to find out who "Gardener" is and come knockin down his door once everyone turns to zombies. You guys.
G. would do just fine against a bunch of rag tag rednecks looking for grub in a "defcon" 1 situation. It's the government that is the fear. I will state non hyperbolically that the government and her paid confiscators are more threatening than any gang, organized or not. Gun laws are just the beginning. We have people in state legislatures and at the federal government who are every bit as capable of pulling a Lazar Kaganovich. Even in your Oklahoma. Why do you think your Constitutional Carry was vetoed? Either the governor was intimidated or she's one of them; most likely, both.
Quote from: Heinrich on January 26, 2020, 12:49:40 PM
Remember this one that never met the hype:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic
Or this...
https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/6/09-040609/en/
I don't expect anyone to understand this, but the headline and pictures should be enough to understand the worldwide concern. This is France, btw.
[yt]https://youtu.be/rDhJ8Pcs45o[/yt]
Some of the comments by the Germans are pretty funny. I recommend this translator over the Google:
https://www.deepl.com/translator
Quote from: james03 on January 26, 2020, 03:37:24 PM
Remember the number one data point: mortality rate. Currently at around 5%, which is promising.
This crap is contagious and it got out. We are now at 5 cases in the US. Trump really needs to shut down air traffic to China, but that won't happen for awhile.
It's definitely in the U.S. You might start base loading with zinc and selenium right now. Cold-eze or the generic variant are a good source of bio-available zinc.
Yes! Start boosting your immune system now. Zicam also has bio-available zinc.
Chinese New Year celebrations in London.
No panic here. Streets are normal. Not a face mask in sight.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/chinese-new-year-london-boris-johnson-downing-street-a4343876.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-chinese-new-year-coronavirus-a4344996.html
CDC reporting 20-25% "seriously ill". Don't know what that means. Mortality still looks around 5%. As cases develop in the West we'll get a better number on mortality that we can trust.
Quote from: james03 on January 26, 2020, 03:37:24 PM
Remember the number one data point: mortality rate. Currently at around 5%, which is promising.
James. Are you saying 5% is a high rate?
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on January 27, 2020, 08:23:15 AM
Chinese New Year celebrations in London.
No panic here. Streets are normal. Not a face mask in sight.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/chinese-new-year-london-boris-johnson-downing-street-a4343876.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-chinese-new-year-coronavirus-a4344996.html
They must all be spinach free.
QuoteJames. Are you saying 5% is a high rate?
No. That generally means it's only killing old people. Which is typical for flu.
To put the number in perspective, if 10MM people in the US get infected, then 500,000 will die, mostly old people. So this is not something to take lightly, but, as of now, this is not the zombie apocalypse.
Since the only data we have on the death rate comes from the Chinese Commie government how can we know if it is 5%, 20% or 50%?
They're obviously lying about the number or deaths and the number of infections, because you do not quarantine 56 million people and ban intercity travel, block roads and extend school holidays for a virus that has killed less than 100 people and infected less that 2500 which is what the CCP are claiming.
There are 49,000 hospital beds in Wuhan alone. So the whole region could EASILY cope with 2500 people needing hospitalization. Yet, we see corridors of sick people and they are running out of supplies and doctors and medical staff are freaking out.
Clearly the CCP are lying. And we have no way to discover the truth until we see what damage the virus does in more honest countries.
https://twitter.com/GODblessUSA888/status/1221844363678035968
Oh dear, 1500 people have flown to the UK from Wuhan since New Year. Health officials only have contact details for 1 in 10 of them.
Quote
Britain will put people airlifted from China into quarantine amid concerns that around 1,500 people who arrived in the UK since the new year have not undergone checks.
The Health Secretary today ordered a "belt and braces" approach to coronavirus amid concerns that the virus is far more contagious than was thought.
Scientists in China believe that it could be transmitted for up to two weeks before the carrier has any symptoms, such as a fever or cough.
Under the new plans, all 1,500 people who have flown in from Wuhan, the epicentre of the outbreak, since mid-January will be asked to remain in isolation for at least a fortnight.
Health officials are now desperately attempting to track such cases, to make sure they stay in their homes, and limit any spread of the disease.
But it is understood that they only have contact details for one in 10 cases who arrived on such flights.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/27/foreign-office-preparing-extract-british-nationals-wuhan-amid/
From the US CDC on flu deaths:
QuoteCDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9 million – 45 million illnesses, between 140,000 – 810,000 hospitalizations and between 12,000 – 61,000 deaths annually since 2010
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
Which puts annual flu deaths at under 0.1% at the worst (for a standard flu). At what is estimated as a minimum 5% death rate for coronavirus, that is 50x worse than the flu at minimum. It also has a 14 day incubation period but is infectious from day 1. By comparison SARS had an incubation of 2-7 days and was only infectious after symptoms were present - meaning it was easy to control via quarantine. The main source of SARS were superspreaders whom were not quarantined fast enough. But with coronavirus you have countless carrying on their daily lives infecting passersby with a casual sneeze for 14 days before they ever feel sick.
As MaximGun notes, you need to look at their actions not their words. Although their words are very bleak too. I also note you need to compare this to typical Chinese officials' behavior - they value harmony extremely highly. Anything which violates public harmony gets crushed. Hence the news never spreads fear whereas in the West it does 24/7 because that gets ad revenue. The Chinese govt doesn't spread fear either since they are fiemly in power whereas a US politician is always angling for an election. It is flawed to see the Chinese actions as just normal "ebola is going to kill us" NY tabloid headline fodder.
The Chinese shut down their stock market "until further notice" and many major factories, including Foxconn and J&J. Foxconn employs over a million and makes all those electronics Westerners use (like Apple). Also I again note the Chinese govt announced it is going to buy up for domestic use its medical equipment exports. Expect product shortages worldwide if this drags on. As I noted before, Amazon is already sold out of n95 masks. These 3M masks (made in China for export) is what the Chinese government will be buying up. Don't count on supplies being available like normal.
QuoteThey're obviously lying about the number or deaths and the number of infections, because you do not quarantine 56 million people
That's been increased to 90MM quarantined.
QuoteSince the only data we have on the death rate comes from the Chinese Commie government how can we know if it is 5%, 20% or 50%?
We don't. That's why the "silver lining" of the breakout into the West is we can get a lot better data on what it does to patients and the estimated mortality rate. Japan might be a good source for info.
What we know:
This crap is definitely infectious.
It is in the U.S.
Trump needs to shut the border.
I'd go to "deep pantry" preps if you haven't already. Basically stock enough canned goods such that you will be able to eat it all without it going bad. Cost: $0, because you'll eat it no matter what.
Davis, please keep us posted on what you are hearing.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on January 27, 2020, 05:59:00 PM
From the US CDC on flu deaths:
QuoteCDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9 million – 45 million illnesses, between 140,000 – 810,000 hospitalizations and between 12,000 – 61,000 deaths annually since 2010
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
Which puts annual flu deaths at under 0.1% at the worst (for a standard flu). At what is estimated as a minimum 5% death rate for coronavirus, that is 50x worse than the flu at minimum. It also has a 14 day incubation period but is infectious from day 1. By comparison SARS had an incubation of 2-7 days and was only infectious after symptoms were present - meaning it was easy to control via quarantine. The main source of SARS were superspreaders whom were not quarantined fast enough. But with coronavirus you have countless carrying on their daily lives infecting passersby with a casual sneeze for 14 days before they ever feel sick.
As MaximGun notes, you need to look at their actions not their words. Although their words are very bleak too. I also note you need to compare this to typical Chinese officials' behavior - they value harmony extremely highly. Anything which violates public harmony gets crushed. Hence the news never spreads fear whereas in the West it does 24/7 because that gets ad revenue. The Chinese govt doesn't spread fear either since they are fiemly in power whereas a US politician is always angling for an election. It is flawed to see the Chinese actions as just normal "ebola is going to kill us" NY tabloid headline fodder.
The Chinese shut down their stock market "until further notice" and many major factories, including Foxconn and J&J. Foxconn employs over a million and makes all those electronics Westerners use (like Apple). Also I again note the Chinese govt announced it is going to buy up for domestic use its medical equipment exports. Expect product shortages worldwide if this drags on. As I noted before, Amazon is already sold out of n95 masks. These 3M masks (made in China for export) is what the Chinese government will be buying up. Don't count on supplies being available like normal.
Goodness me ....
But why do you think there is such a disconnect between what the Chinese government is doing and what's being done elsewhere? It's business as usual in the UK. The coronavirus story is one news item among many here. No-one here seems the slightest bit concerned. It's just another SARS or Ebola. A load of fuss about nothing. That seems to be the general opinion.
China nationwide has closed all work till at least February 2nd and Shanghai (pop. 25 mil) has closed all work until at least Feb 9th. Imagine your country announcing that to get a sense of how extreme this is. You can again consider what this means for supply lines if it drags on.
Also Wuhan had 5 million leave before the quarantine. That is similar to the population of NYC out and about. Also note that this means the Wuhan mega hospitals are swamped despite half of their population being out of town.
On the positive side, we might luck out and the HIV antivirals they are testing might be effective (they helped for SARS). Presumably every bio lab on the planet is working on this. And we have yet to hear of any children passing, so most hopefully that holds out.
AC,
The Western media and governments cry wolf all the time. It is endless especially with American media. Can you blame people for yawning at this? Also people react very slowly because they usually aren't paying attention. I'm in HK which was hit the worst by SARS - 350 dead (pop 7 mil) vs 300 dead in mainland China (pop 1,300 mil). You'd think the HKers would be the most terrified and prepared to react. Well I did my market run yesterday and more than half are without mask on. I was the singular person wearing n95. In the crowded market were many sneezes and coughs - one ten year old with both parents was coughing so violently you'd think he was ready to die. Couldn''t leave Jr. at home though with one parent, all had to go out and risk spreading their infection to everyone else in that crowded cramped space. You can't fix stupid. Stupid is as stupid does.
You'd also think that a killer pneumonia pandemic in previously SARS-terrorized HK would at least put an end to the ongoing riots. But no! They rioted the past two nights AND detonated a bomb in a (Catholic) hospital. Again, you can't fix stupid. The reality is for all our fancy education and degrees, we're still a bunch of peasant bumpkins doing stupid things. If this all blows over then I'm the stupid peasant who quarantined his family at home because I was afraid of the boogeyman. If it is the new Spanish Flu then those out and about in a place that should be the most well prepared on the planet due to SARS history are the stupid peasants.
I agree with James that borders should be shut.
Edit:
Taiwan has banned all mainlanders, as have Mongolia and North Korea. HK very belatedly announced that it too will go along with the rest of the country's work holiday extension. Again, this city is run by rapacious tycoons. Should be most prepared city in the world for pandemics due to being terrorized by SARS in '03, but its just a joke. Run by clowns and populated with anarchists and buffoons whom bomb hospitals and riot during a pandemic. Border still wide open with the mainland of course, despite that the mainland itself is literally blocking roads and highways with boulders and makeshift brick walls to block people from moving around within the mainland.
I am very frustrated. Just two weeks ago I was preparing to submit my application to immigrate to Taiwan. Found a nice place up in the mountains in a small city there, our family could live a more peaceful life there. Now everything has been turned upside down. Rather than leaving this crap city, I am not only stuck here, but my family is imprisoned behind our front door. Total reversal in a flash.
"74% are at least as concerned about an outbreak of this virus as they were Ebola's spread in U.S. in 2014"
https://morningconsult.com/2020/01/27/even-as-cdc-says-risk-of-coronavirus-is-low-in-u-s-worry-begins-to-spread/
Awkward, I couldn't believe it with the Daily mail which is top media outlet worldwide was all about the grammys the day before yesterday. So it was zombie apocalypse for the last couple of days and then switched to who wore what at the grammys. Just shows how fickle the human race are!!
I'm going to start a thread on the top 5 anti viral supplements for boosting immunity but also fighting a virus.
HK has done a partial border closing. Half of mainland flights are now cancelled, all trains cancelled, some small land border crossings closed (but busiest ones left open). Government was planning to cancel all transit passengers to / from mainland (HK is a major air hub) but the tycoon airline (Cathay, owned by British Swire tycoons) nixed that, would hurt their billions too much. Never can have too many billions even in the face of a devastating pneumonia plague about to makes its face shown in the world's most densely populated city.
HK government clowns, nothing but a tool of a few tycoon families. They'll soak the locals for every penny as they always have even when they start dying.
By the way, hand sanitizer on Amazon is already 3x usual prices. If you all aren't stocking up yesterday it's going to be weeks too late when this virus takes its mask off in a month and reveals that it was spreading around the world ages ago.
Hand sanitizer is useless. The virus needs to be in contact with alcohol longer than you have sanitizer on your hands. Wash you hands with hot water and soap, properly like a surgeon would.
Science, not fashion or branding or "hope" kills viruses.
James, US hospitals are only better if you can get treated in one. The virus has already gone exponential and both Chinese and Thai data are showing a 40-60% jump in infection rate per day from the previous day. That means millions of people infected inside of 3 weeks. Valentines Day this year ain't going to have many kisses.
When your ICU is full and the doctors are all busy dealing with other sick patients your chances as a sick and abandoned American are not really any better than a sick abandoned Chinaman or Thai.
If you are going to get the virus get it in the next 7 days. Otherwise prep, lock yourself in the house, don't have guests over and get busy on the Chat forum on here.
Quote from: diaduit on January 28, 2020, 05:18:45 AM
Awkward, I couldn't believe it with the Daily mail which is top media outlet worldwide was all about the grammys the day before yesterday. So it was zombie apocalypse for the last couple of days and then switched to who wore what at the grammys. Just shows how fickle the human race are!!
I'm going to start a thread on the top 5 anti viral supplements for boosting immunity but also fighting a virus.
I noticed that too. The coronavirus has dropped right off the front page, life continues as normal and still not a face mask in sight.
Perhaps it's disaster fatigue. Everyone assumes that this virus will be dealt with just as SARS and Ebola were. I must admit to thinking the same, while at the same time stocking up on a few things, just in case.
People are too dumb to understand R0 values, factors affecting the speed of spread, asymptomatic periods etc.
People stand on the beach when a tidal wave happens and stare as the wave comes in.
That is why they walk around with those masks on, in Asia, thinking it will protect them like some magic amulet. It does very little other than stopping them breathing or coughing on others. If you spend anytime in a population with 100,000 people infected sooner or later the virus is going to get in through your eye mucus or a gap in the mask or on your hands, soles of your feet etc.
People who work with viruses have full bio-hazard suits, over-pressure and their own air line to the suit. If those masks worked effectively they would not need to dress like The Michelin Man.
But people like to "feel" like they are in control. And if they cannot they ignore bad news until it bites them in the ass.
QuoteJames, US hospitals are only better if you can get treated in one.
You misunderstood my point. I'm saying we'll get better DATA. Even IF the government wanted to sugar coat things, with social media the facts will leak out. And governments know this, so I expect to get a better picture.
Hospitals aren't going to stop this. If the mortality rate is typical flu, you'll heal up after a week in bed. If the mortality rate is even 10%, with these infection levels the world economy will shut down.
First non-China death being reported on Zerohedge.
Prepping for potential disasters like this is on my To-Do List besides what little I've already done (modest food pantry, weapons, savings, survival skills, etc) but the conundrum in scenarios like this how serious to take it. Take it too serious it becomes a distraction from duties of state or worse it turns you into an end times nutter like one who'd retreat to the deep woods around CC monastery in a state of frenzied isolation. Not take it serious enough, then neglect your duty to protect yourself and your family, and end up starving to death out in the cold with the zombies once chastisement thunders across the land.
I can appreciate the scenario painted by MaximGun a couple months ago in a post about wanting to be able to stand behind James' sandwich board drinking fine wine laughing, after saying the rosary, while the unprepared heathens outside suffer. Reminds me of funny comments made by Greg about relishing the coming chastisement, imagining himself sitting on his roof top looking out across the chaos laughing with a case of vodka. And there was truth in ironic statements like that. It is good to prep, and God even commands it, so there's assurances He is on your side temporally and spiritually during crisis. But often the innocent true believer is still destined to suffer even horribly with the rest.
And do we really have enough data to think Chastisement and the Anti-Christ is on the horizon to make extraordinary preparations for it? To alert ourselves and everyone around us every time potential doom appears in the headlines? Maybe so. But I don't have certain answers. Perhaps I need to read more on the subject or just error on the side of extreme caution. Marian apparitions and our own analysis only goes so far rationally, beyond that it's a very hard task to predict the future (aka prophesize) and make special plans on par with those predictions. I'm all for prepping short term and long term, which is actually fun to do, but to what degree??
Food for thought.
The answer to that is this. Just seriously enough, that when your food suppliers, medicines, ammo, etc, etc, runs out everyone in a 100/200/400 yard radius of your house is already dead or in a government camp being fed. You don't have to outrun the lion, just the first person the lion catches and eats. Because then he is chewing on them and you can calmly walk away.
Most people have done ZERO prep. So any prep is a headstart.
Don't do a henny penny or chicken licken on it but at the same time be the virgin and the lamp!!
Quote from: MaximGun on January 29, 2020, 04:35:10 AM
The answer to that is this. Just seriously enough, that when your food suppliers, medicines, ammo, etc, etc, runs out everyone in a 100/200/400 yard radius of your house is already dead or in a government camp being fed. You don't have to outrun the lion, just the first person the lion catches and eats. Because then he is chewing on them and you can calmly walk away.
Most people have done ZERO prep. So any prep is a headstart.
Sounds like some serious prep, for that kind of scenario. Everyone nearby either dead or in a gov't camp. That would be on the level of the Great Chastisement, so that level of prep would warrant a certain degree of certainty we are in or near the End Times, or something akin to it. I've read enough of the prophesies to think it's very possible or likely if not certain, so I suppose what you imply is right, that we need to do hard core prep beyond just filling our pantries. And I can appreciate the godliness of standing behind your sandwich board chuckling a bit as the world goes down in flames, giving thanks for God's vengeance He promises against His enemies (who are the enemies of orthodox, Catholic Christians living upright lives in grace). If done in humility.
I guess that depends with whom you are neighbors.
The latest news - just off Twitter- The Chinese Paralympic team because of anticipated difficulties in organizing their training have already pulled out of the Tokyo Summer Games - according to their spokesperson, Lim Ping.
And the German 33 year old man working for the car parts company who caught the virus locally in Germany when an asymptomatic Chinese trainer flew in from HQ to hold a one day course recovered his full health in a single hour - however, he very soon found himself hungry for more power.
Why are we even believing those people died from coronavirus in China? Always need to verify that murderous Communist country's propaganda, but in this case not really possible. Now they can start panics whenever they want just by inventing news that can't be verified. Coronavirus is just a cold virus.
I don't think this is much of anything. One Chinese chap was wearing a motorbike helmet, which is perhaps not fitted to the purpose. The Red Chinese authorities lie by nature, so honestly it's hard to tell. There's probably some different things at work here.
This coronavirus is just the cold like how the Spanish Flu is just the flu.
The Lancet's latest estimate puts mortality rate at 11%.
Zerohedge article putting the dots together strongly suggests that this is an escaped virus from the top level Wuhan biohazard lab nearby the seafood market where this started. Job posting Nov 2019 on the lab's own website is looking for inexperienced people to do research on deadly coronavirus infections in bats. This virus came from bats and the market is 20 miles away from this lab. Also in 2019 two Chinese scientists stole deadly coronaviruses from Canadian biohazard labs and brought them back to China.
This would help explain things. Deadly virus gets out of biohazard lab by inexperienced workers. Everyone too scared to tell anyone. Virus spreads but no one knows. Eventually it gets sequenced and eventually someone figures out its the same virus from the biohazard lab. Now warning bells go off that, what is perhaps a bioweapon, is on the loose. Suddenly 85 million under quarantine, boulders rolled into roads, etc, Xi Jinping declaring it the "devil virus", PLA doctors ordered into action, etc.
If 11% mortality gets confirmed, then we are at DEFCON 2. Which means stock the f' up. Note this is an estimate at this time. Reporting still looks like 5%.
Australia seems like it is in the lead for non-Chinese, non-oriental cases. I think we'll know in a week. Also monitor Japan.
DEFCON 1 is zombie apocalypse where food and power get cut off.
Right now, DEFCON 3. Monitor the situation and finalize plans.
new conglomerator:
https://pandemic.warroom.org/ (https://pandemic.warroom.org/)
A little hyped, but it has data.
Lancet article confirming 11% mortality. Not good.
https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/pb-assets/Lancet/pdfs/S0140673620302117.pdf (https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/pb-assets/Lancet/pdfs/S0140673620302117.pdf)
Looking at results, looks like immune boosting steps are helpful.
Lancet clearinghouse site for Wuhan virus:
https://www.thelancet.com/coronavirus (https://www.thelancet.com/coronavirus)
This weekend I'll probably pull the trigger. Head off to the store and start buying.
Another way to look at it. This is a 11% mortality for hospital cases. 2 ways to look at it:
1. Despite medical intervention, 11% die.
2. This sample is the sickest of the sick, so mortality in general is lower.
Don't know which one applies.
Quote from: james03 on January 29, 2020, 08:08:04 PM
Another way to look at it. This is a 11% mortality for hospital cases. 2 ways to look at it:
1. Despite medical intervention, 11% die.
2. This sample is the sickest of the sick, so mortality in general is lower.
Don't know which one applies.
There could many who got sick and recovered quickly after a couple of days so the mortality rate may be lower than estimated.
It is 3.09am and I have definitely caught this coronavirus. I know it. I am certain.
:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :pray2: :pray3:
I have a terrible pain in my sinos.
:P
Quote from: MaximGun on January 29, 2020, 09:12:29 PM
It is 3.09am and I have definitely caught this coronavirus. I know it. I am certain.
:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :pray2: :pray3:
I have a terrible pain in my sinos.
:P
speaking about sinus. I had a painful sinus problem for almost a month. It was vey painful.
Just checking in to let you all know that I am 'prepped' and fully ready for the coronavirus and its aftermath.
(https://i.ibb.co/1Jsmwg7/Planet-of-the-Apes.jpg)
How are your preparations going Jayne?
Quote from: MaximGun on January 29, 2020, 09:12:29 PM
It is 3.09am and I have definitely caught this coronavirus. I know it. I am certain.
:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :pray2: :pray3:
I have a terrible pain in my sinos.
:P
Don't worry. I had the coronavirus yesterday too. And today it's gone.
Nothing to it.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on January 30, 2020, 09:21:48 AM
Quote from: MaximGun on January 29, 2020, 09:12:29 PM
It is 3.09am and I have definitely caught this coronavirus. I know it. I am certain.
:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :pray2: :pray3:
I have a terrible pain in my sinos.
:P
Don't worry. I had the coronavirus yesterday too. And today it's gone.
Nothing to it.
bang down a couple of Coronas and you'll be good as new.
One of the most important survival skills that hardly anyone ever mentions has to be brewing beer and distilling spirits.
Just think of the goodwill that would come your way. The monasteries were master brewers and distillers and many low alcoholic beers and wines were regularly consumed during the Middle Ages, because water supplies were often dubious as to their cleanliness.
Alcohol has excellent antiseptic qualities, useful for alleviating minor injuries to body, and can lift the spirits in no time.
Learn how to brew and distil alcohol. You'll always have something to barter with.
Fermentation of wines and similar (cider, cyser, various non-grape fruit wines) is easier and more repeatable than brewing (beer).
Distillation is illegal in the States without a license, and requires some knowledge of how to operate a Still if you don't want to poison people or blow yourself up. However, one can do something called fractional freezing/freeze distillation. It's basically bringing the alcoholic content of the cider/wine/etc. into a concentrated state. All you do is freeze it, scoop out the ice (run it through a salad spinner and put the liquid back in for more freezing), and then refreeze. Do this over a week and you end up with some potent stuff. In the case of apple cider (hard cider, for my American readers ;) ), you end up with what's known as "apple jack". What started at 8-10% ABV is now like... 30%+.
The problem with it is you've concentrated the methanol.
Thanks for the ongoing intel James, saves time analyzing articles from my morning Drudge Report check in. Texted the Mrs. to add large bags of rice and beans to our weekly instacart delivery list -- bulk items via Sams club no membership required if w instacart.
Quote from: Gardener on January 30, 2020, 11:41:33 AM
Fermentation of wines and similar (cider, cyser, various non-grape fruit wines) is easier and more repeatable than brewing (beer).
Distillation is illegal in the States without a license, and requires some knowledge of how to operate a Still if you don't want to poison people or blow yourself up. However, one can do something called fractional freezing/freeze distillation. It's basically bringing the alcoholic content of the cider/wine/etc. into a concentrated state. All you do is freeze it, scoop out the ice (run it through a salad spinner and put the liquid back in for more freezing), and then refreeze. Do this over a week and you end up with some potent stuff. In the case of apple cider (hard cider, for my American readers ;) ), you end up with what's known as "apple jack". What started at 8-10% ABV is now like... 30%+.
The problem with it is you've concentrated the methanol.
Help is at hand though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-nGbAf81Zs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZakPUSVVKo
...and other adventures I had before I accidentally blew up the kitchen. :D
I should add that I'm not suggesting anyone breaks the law as it stands. But it wouldn't do any harm to learn the basics from the many sites that are available online, then quietly assemble the necessary ingredients and kit, so that when everything breaks down and law and order is just a notion, you would be ready to get distilling in an already earmarked secure and private location.
The trickiest part of the distilling process is 'calling the shots', ie, learning to discard the 'heads' and the 'tails' when the final product emerges.
Quote from: Gardener on January 30, 2020, 01:56:31 PM
...and other adventures I had before I accidentally blew up the kitchen. :D
You won't blow up the kitchen.
Revealing and sad.
[yt]https://youtu.be/7AI3R41dGnU[/yt]
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on January 30, 2020, 02:01:16 PM
Quote from: Gardener on January 30, 2020, 01:56:31 PM
...and other adventures I had before I accidentally blew up the kitchen. :D
You won't blow up the kitchen.
Please do not underestimate my ability to screw things up. :D
just add a bunch of sugar, yeast, and balloons (to measure when fermentation is complete) to your prep list. pretty cheap. save milk or pop jugs. later follow recipes online. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Greg on January 30, 2020, 06:51:04 AM
How are your preparations going Jayne?
I watched a video by one of my favourite online doctors (he promotes the carnivore diet) about what to do if there is a pandemic and it mentioned breathing masks. I asked my husband if we should buy some masks, but he said no.
The video also said that we should stay home and not interact with people. Since I am an introvert, I am always ready to do that. My house is well-stocked with books so I will be fine even if the Internet breaks.
QuoteJust checking in to let you all know that I am 'prepped'
That's good. I'm assuming you have your hands on the cow bell. Remember if this goes down I get to ring the annoying cow bell while you cry out: "The end is nigh you fag enabling baby killers". Also have plenty of booze.
Watching tonight this Netflix documentary about a potential influenza pandemic, interestingly just released.
https://www.netflix.com/title/81026143
https://ktla.com/2020/01/30/with-over-8000-deaths-this-season-flu-remains-greater-threat-than-coronavirus-in-u-s/
Quote from: red solo cup on January 31, 2020, 04:57:02 AM
https://ktla.com/2020/01/30/with-over-8000-deaths-this-season-flu-remains-greater-threat-than-coronavirus-in-u-s/
I only hear about people getting sick after getting a flu shot.
I am going to contact him and organize this for the die off.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdf5EXo6I68[/yt]
Gallows humor is my favorite and twitter in the UK today is on fire with it.
Ah, the Middle Ages .....
Here's one story from that period which might be of interest now. When the Black Death arrived in the English village of Eyam, the villagers decided to quarantine themselves so as not to spread the plague further.
Quote
As the warmth of the summer of 1665 began to fade, the Derbyshire village of Eyam was struck by a devastating outbreak of the Black Death that was, in the months to follow, to claim the lives of more than 260 residents, out of an estimated population of 800.
The death toll would certainly have been far higher, and the illness spread much wider, had the villagers of Eyam not agreed to quarantine themselves to prevent the spread of the outbreak. Eyam's sacrifice helped to save the lives of neighbouring villagers — but at terrible cost to the residents of Eyam, who faced the disease alone and unprotected.
There is no single, universally accepted, account of the origins of the Eyam plague. The first detailed histories of the outbreak were not written until the 1700s, and not all of the earliest accounts are now seen as reliable. However, most historians now accept that the Black Death (the 'bubonic plague') arrived in Eyam when infected cloth was delivered to the house of the village tailor, in late August or September. The cloth was infested with the rat fleas now known to be responsible for the spread of the disease.
The first fatality
The first Eyam resident to fall victim to the plague was George Viccars, the assistant to Alexander Hadfield, who had ordered the cloth — most likely from suppliers in London. The infection spread rapidly through the house, claiming the lives of Viccars, his two stepsons, his employer, and his closest neighbours.......
The villagers of Eyam weren't entirely without outside support, however, as people from nearby villages brought food and supplies to those self-quarantined.
Quote
The surviving records do not make it clear exactly how the decision to isolate Eyam was made. They also say little about how the villagers viewed their 'duty' once the cordon around their community had been established. Yet is seems that there were almost no attempts to break the quarantine line, even as the infection peaked.
It is also apparent that the surrounding villages kept up their support for Eyam, providing food and other supplies to its inhabitants — leaving these goods at the edge of the cordon — despite the risks that this entailed. In part, this was an acknowledgement by their neighbours of the sacrifice that Eyam was making. At the same time, those providing the aid knew that without it the starving villagers of Eyam might have broken the quarantine en masse in search of food — and so infected other local communities. Perhaps the generosity of Eyam's helpers was a mixture of charitable concern and pragmatic self-interest.
The records suggest that Eyam residents were keen to pay for these 'plague supplies' — leaving money at the collection points. Sometimes these coins went uncollected, but at other times Eyam's donors 'disinfected' the coins by soaking them in vinegar.
http://www.survivors-mad-dog.org.uk/MDEyam01.html
https://biorxiv-cache.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/2020.01.30.927871.full.pdf
The smoking gun perhaps.
Read the conclusion. HIV elements attached to the virus that are never seen in any other coronaviruses.
Increasingly likely a bioweapon. It also explains a few things:
- why the Chinese government rapidly went to red alert about 10 days ago (locals probably at first covered up the leak, but once RNA sequencing done higher ups eventually figured it out)
- why Western media firmly denies it is a threat, despite always hyping every other illness (this was perhaps a bioweapon developed by the West in Canada and stolen by the Chinese)
Perhaps good news is that apparently Hubei province hospitals only have 100 test kits per day each, so only sickest of the sick get tested. Hence the mortality rate might be signifigixantly overinflated. However there is also evidence that the death figure is bogus as well, so who knows. Like James has said, sadly we need to wait a month or so for it to develop outside of China and see what the data is.
So we need to have patience while all over the world the number of patients grows.
That's gonna be hard. :(
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on January 31, 2020, 02:58:59 PM
Ah, the Middle Ages .....
Here's one story from that period which might be of interest now. When the Black Death arrived in the English village of Eyam, the villagers decided to quarantine themselves so as not to spread the plague further.
Quote
As the warmth of the summer of 1665 began to fade, the Derbyshire village of Eyam was struck by a devastating outbreak of the Black Death that was, in the months to follow, to claim the lives of more than 260 residents, out of an estimated population of 800.
The death toll would certainly have been far higher, and the illness spread much wider, had the villagers of Eyam not agreed to quarantine themselves to prevent the spread of the outbreak. Eyam's sacrifice helped to save the lives of neighbouring villagers — but at terrible cost to the residents of Eyam, who faced the disease alone and unprotected.
There is no single, universally accepted, account of the origins of the Eyam plague. The first detailed histories of the outbreak were not written until the 1700s, and not all of the earliest accounts are now seen as reliable. However, most historians now accept that the Black Death (the 'bubonic plague') arrived in Eyam when infected cloth was delivered to the house of the village tailor, in late August or September. The cloth was infested with the rat fleas now known to be responsible for the spread of the disease.
The first fatality
The first Eyam resident to fall victim to the plague was George Viccars, the assistant to Alexander Hadfield, who had ordered the cloth — most likely from suppliers in London. The infection spread rapidly through the house, claiming the lives of Viccars, his two stepsons, his employer, and his closest neighbours.......
The villagers of Eyam weren't entirely without outside support, however, as people from nearby villages brought food and supplies to those self-quarantined.
Quote
The surviving records do not make it clear exactly how the decision to isolate Eyam was made. They also say little about how the villagers viewed their 'duty' once the cordon around their community had been established. Yet is seems that there were almost no attempts to break the quarantine line, even as the infection peaked.
It is also apparent that the surrounding villages kept up their support for Eyam, providing food and other supplies to its inhabitants — leaving these goods at the edge of the cordon — despite the risks that this entailed. In part, this was an acknowledgement by their neighbours of the sacrifice that Eyam was making. At the same time, those providing the aid knew that without it the starving villagers of Eyam might have broken the quarantine en masse in search of food — and so infected other local communities. Perhaps the generosity of Eyam's helpers was a mixture of charitable concern and pragmatic self-interest.
The records suggest that Eyam residents were keen to pay for these 'plague supplies' — leaving money at the collection points. Sometimes these coins went uncollected, but at other times Eyam's donors 'disinfected' the coins by soaking them in vinegar.
http://www.survivors-mad-dog.org.uk/MDEyam01.html
I read something similar at bbc.com tonight. The point of the story I read is that quarantine works, according to the writer(s), in terms of halting the spread, despite the price of that.
The city of Huanggang in Hubei (population 7 million, size of NYC) has ordered mandatory home isolation for everyone except for supermarket, pharmacy and healthcare workers. Families are allowed to send one person out once every two days for purposes of purchasing food. Criminal punishments for those whom violate this new ordinance.
Again indicates how severe those with insider knowledge take this to be.
On the positive side, we still are without a death overseas. This however is not much of a surprise though given that the virus began, to the best of our knowledge, in early December but the first death was not until early January. So it is still a bit early for us to expect overseas deaths. None the less I am hopeful that somehow this is China specific, perhaps the pneumonia is especially aggravated by sustained exposure to air pollution or something.
Also modeling indicates the number infected by now should be high tens of thousands if not several hundred thousand. If so then the deaths are more in alignment with regular flu mortality rates.
None of that though fits with the extreme reaction of the Chinese, although one way to explain that is with the "conspiracy theory" that they belatedly realized their bioweapon was on the loose, panicked, but it turns out the mortality of their weapon is less than expected (but still extremely contagious).
Being a bit hopeful, but again we really need to see what happens in places outside of the mainland till we can know.
What a shocker it is that bioweapons like this are being developed and have been developed for some time.
https://www.infowars.com/coronavirus-contains-hiv-insertions-stoking-fears-over-artificially-created-bioweapon/
"Over the past few days, the mainstream press has vigorously pushed back against a theory about the origins of the coronavirus that has now infected as many as 70,000+ people in Wuhan alone (depending on whom you believe). The theory is that China obtained the coronavirus via a Canadian research program, and started molding it into a bioweapon at the Institute of Virology in Wuhan. Politifact pointed the finger at Zero Hedge, in particular, though the story was widely shared across independent-leaning media.
The theory is that the virus, which was developed by infectious disease experts to function as a bio-weapon, originated in the Wuhan-based lab of Dr. Peng Zhou, China's preeminent researcher of bat immune systems, specifically in how their immune systems adapt to the presence of viruses like coronavirus and other destructive viruses. Somehow, the virus escaped from the lab, and the Hunan fish market where the virus supposedly originated is merely a ruse.
Now, a respected epidemiologist who recently caught flack for claiming in a twitter threat that the virus appeared to be much more contagious than initially believed is pointing out irregularities in the virus's genome that suggests it might have been genetically engineered for the purposes of a weapon, and not just any weapon but the deadliest one of all.
In "Uncanny similarity of unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV spike protein to HIV-1 gp120 and Gag", Indian researchers are baffled by segments of the virus's RNA that have no relation to other coronaviruses like SARS, and instead appear to be closer to HIV. The virus even responds to treatment by HIV medications.
For those pressed for time, here are the key findings from the paper, which first focuses on the unique nature of 2019-nCoV, and then observe four amino acid sequences in the Wuhan Coronavirus which are homologous to amino acid sequences in HIV1:
In addition, other recent studies have linked the 2019-nCoV to SARS CoV. We therefore compared the spike glycoprotein sequences of the 2019-nCoV to that of the SARS CoV (NCBI Accession number: AY390556.1). On careful examination of the sequence alignment we found that the 2019- nCoV spike glycoprotein contains 4 insertions [Fig.2]. To further investigate if these inserts are present in any other corona virus, we performed a multiple sequence alignment of the spike glycoprotein amino acid sequences of all available coronaviruses (n=55) [refer Table S.File1] in NCBI refseq (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov) this includes one sequence of 2019-nCoV[Fig.S1]. We found that these 4 insertions [inserts 1, 2, 3 and 4] are unique to 2019-nCoV and are not present in other coronaviruses analyzed. Another group from China had documented three insertions comparing fewer spike glycoprotein sequences of coronaviruses . Another group from China had documented three insertions comparing fewer spike glycoprotein sequences of coronaviruses (Zhou et al., 2020).
We then translated the aligned genome and found that these inserts are present in all Wuhan 2019-nCoV viruses except the 2019-nCoV virus of Bat as a host [Fig.S4]. Intrigued by the 4 highly conserved inserts unique to 2019-nCoV we wanted to understand their origin. For this purpose, we used the 2019-nCoV local alignment with each insert as query against all virus genomes and considered hits with 100% sequence coverage. Surprisingly, each of the four inserts aligned with short segments of the Human immunodeficiency Virus-1 (HIV-1) proteins. The amino acid positions of the inserts in 2019-nCoV and the corresponding residues in HIV-1 gp120 and HIV-1 Gag are shown in Table 1.
Why do the authors think the virus may be man-made? Because when looking at the above insertions which are not present in any of the closest coronavirus families, "it is quite unlikely for a virus to have acquired such unique insertions naturally in a short duration of time." Instead, they can be found in cell identification and membrane binding proteins located in the HIV genome.
Since the S protein of 2019-nCoV shares closest ancestry with SARS GZ02, the sequence coding for spike proteins of these two viruses were compared using MultiAlin software. We found four new insertions in the protein of 2019-nCoV- "GTNGTKR" (IS1), "HKNNKS" (IS2), "GDSSSG" (IS3) and "QTNSPRRA" (IS4) (Figure 2). To our surprise, these sequence insertions were not only absent in S protein of SARS but were also not observed in any other member of the Coronaviridae family (Supplementary figure). This is startling as it is quite unlikely for a virus to have acquired such unique insertions naturally in a short duration of time.
The insertions were observed to be present in all the genomic sequences of 2019-nCoV virus available from the recent clinical isolates. To know the source of these insertions in 2019-nCoV a local alignment was done with BLASTp using these insertions as query with all virus genome. Unexpectedly, all the insertions got aligned with Human immunodeficiency Virus-1 (HIV-1). Further analysis revealed that aligned sequences of HIV-1 with 2019-nCoV were derived from surface glycoprotein gp120 (amino acid sequence positions: 404-409, 462-467, 136-150) and from Gag protein (366-384 amino acid) (Table 1). Gag protein of HIV is involved in host membrane binding, packaging of the virus and for the formation of virus-like particles. Gp120 plays crucial role in recognizing the host cell by binding to the primary receptor CD4.This binding induces structural rearrangements in GP120, creating a high affinity binding site for a chemokine co-receptor like CXCR4 and/or CCR5.
A good recap of the findings was provided by Dr. Feigl-Ding, who started his explanatory thread by pointing out that the transmission rate outside China has surpassed the rate inside China.
But the 'smoking gun' in this case are pieces of the virus's genetic code that Indian researchers, led by Prashant Pradhan at the Indian Institute of Technology, found may have been 'embedded' from HIV, which belongs to an entirely different family of viruses.
To be sure, Dr. Feigl-Ding insists that he's not trying to promote any 'conspiracies' about the virus being a bioweapon developed by the Chinese, although it is difficult to find a proper name for what appears to be an artificial, weaponized virus.
Another doctor chimed in with what he thought was a solid explanation for the virus's irregularities... ...Until he realized something disturbing."
Tse Rome and die.
The Italian government declared a state of emergency Friday and closed all air traffic to and from China. The move came after confirmation that two Chinese tourists tested positive for the coronavirus. The couple are being treated in isolation in a Rome hospital specializing in infectious diseases.
A special cabinet meeting held by the Italian government Friday declared a six-month state of emergency and allocated $5.5 million to deal with the coronavirus crisis. Further meetings were planned between the country's health authorities and the civil defense department to decide what additional measures were needed.
Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte confirmed Thursday that a Chinese couple from Wuhan that had been staying in Rome's Palatino hotel, near the Colosseum, had been admitted to Rome's Spallanzani Hospital after showing symptoms of coronavirus.
You don't get such extreme reactions as this unless the governments know this is a big deal. Likely they all know it was a goof from a biolab (weapon or not is irrelevant) and so they have the Western media working overtime to downplay fears and soon will cast any biolab conspiracy theorists as antisemites. They don't want biolabs to be stigmatized like nuclear energy is.
Regardless of what happens, I think biolab leaks is a new reality we need to live with and thus must always be prepared for.
The article clearly stated that viruses are known for quickly picking up bits and pieces of other viruses as it moves through an environment. The expression " When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail " applies here. When you're Infowars everything looks like a conspiracy.
There were articles from Russian scientists speculating in 2003 that SARS was a bioweapon too - or at least an accidental leakage from a biolab, as Davis said. It's a strong possibility imo. But let's wait to see what further research shows.
Source (https://web.archive.org/web/20070706015342/http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0%2C6119%2C2-10-1462_1346560%2C00.html)
"Sars biological weapon?
11/04/2003 15:13 - (SA)
Moscow - The deadly pneumonia that has killed more than 100 people around the world may be a man-made biological weapon, Russian experts said on Friday.
Nikolai Filatov, head of Moscow's epidemiological services, told the Gazeta daily that he thought the pneumonia was man-made because "there is no vaccine for this virus, its make-up is unclear, it has not been very widespread and the population is not immune to it."
Yet he had some reservations, since the virus has a low mortality rate - so far killing 4% of those infected -, and because it is relatively difficult to pass on - through direct contact or inhalation.
The virus, according to academy of medecine member Sergei Kolesnikov, is a cocktail of mumps and measles, whose mix could never appear in nature.
"We can only get that in a laboratory," he told a conference in the Siberian city of Irkutsk, quoted by RIA Novosti news agency.
It may have spread because of an "accidental leak" from a lab, he added.
More than 100 people have died and some 3 000 others have been infected by Severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars), which is believed to have originated in China's southern Guangdong province."
https://www.rediff.com/news/2003/apr/11sars3.htm
"SARS virus was created in weapons lab: Russian scientist
By rediff.com News DeskApril 11, 2003 16:57 IST
The virus of atypical pneumonia, better known as SARS, or Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, was created artificially, possibly as a bacteriological weapon, Sergei Kolesnikov, academician of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, told a press conference in the Siberian town of Irkutsk on Thursday, the Russian RIA Novosti news agency reported.
According to Kolesnikov, the virus of atypical pneumonia is a synthesis of the viruses of measles and infectious parotiditis or mumps, the natural compound of which is impossible. This can be done only in a laboratory, he said.
Kolesnikov added that in creating bacteriological weapons, a protective anti-viral vaccine is, as a rule, worked out at the same time, so a medicine for atypical pneumonia may soon appear.
He did not, however, rule out the possibility that the virus could have spread accidentally as a result of "an unsanctioned leakage" from a biological weapons laboratory."
Quote from: Miriam_M on February 01, 2020, 01:20:45 AM
I read something similar at bbc.com tonight. The point of the story I read is that quarantine works, according to the writer(s), in terms of halting the spread, despite the price of that.
That's right, the Eyam village story demonstrates that quarantine works.
I also read somewhere that one of the reasons Poland managed to escape the worst of the Black Death was that the King closed the borders as soon as news of the plague reached him. Also, Poland was very rural and sparsely populated, therefore village communities, also being suspicious of strangers, were able to quarantine themselves quite easily.
The example of the Italian cities also demonstrated the effect of quarantine. Again, I can't remember where I read this, but apparently Venice got news of the plague early and enforced a strict quarantine, and other cities followed suit by simply closing their gates and forcibly isolating houses where the plague was present. These cities, too, escaped the worst ravages of the Black Death.
Quarantine does seem to work, which might explain why the Chinese are being so strict about it.
Why the conspiracy theories?
There have been countless plagues and pestilences throughout history which arose without any biolab or genetic engineers with evil intent. Why isn't the coronavirus just one more of them?
It might kill millions of people, it might peter out in a few weeks. But it doesn't have to be a conspiracy. It could just be one of those things that happens.
OK I will bite. It is the weekend so I have some free time. (Just been shopping)
Because if it is a bio-weapon then Russia, China and other states will know and the cat is out of the bag. It has bits of HIV virus on and the Indian University believes it is not natural. The HIV viruses are a completely different family. When the virus passes, regardless of how many are killed or not killed there will be the rumblings of war. There is no way that states can stand for bio-weapons being created and used (even by accident). They must act against what they think are the perpetrators. Or it is only a matter of time until an improved virus is released in their capital city.
Look how disruptive this has already been to international travel and it has only just begun if the infection growth and R0 values are to be considered. The costs must be well into 40 billion dollars already, perhaps $100b. 2 weeks of productivity lost right across China and Asia. That is expensive.
Why worry about the Tower of Babel, it was just another building. Why worry about Sodom and Gomorrah it was just another town where people were sodomizing each other.
You say the prayer to St. Michael at the end of mass, but don't appreciate that at some point that 100 years of Satan is up. This looks like it might be the final throw of the dice. "Defend us in this day of battle". That implies that the day of battle comes to a close (because a day comes to a close). The vision of Pope Leo certainly implies this. Satan is given a finite period of time of 100 years. Looking at the dire state of the church today if this is not it, the satan has won the wager. We've even seen long term traditionalists on this forum quit and leave the RCC and join Orthodox, Islam whatever. Who comes after Pope Francis and how can anyone take the Catholic Church in Rome seriously?
Everything is a conspiracy theory until it is not. How do you think the virus will stop infecting people and when? Explain your thoughts as to why it is nothing to worry about and what will stop it.
Quote from: MaximGun on February 01, 2020, 09:32:26 AM
OK I will bite. It is the weekend so I have some free time. (Just been shopping)
Because if it is a bio-weapon then Russia, China and other states will know and the cat is out of the bag. It has bits of HIV virus on and the Indian University believes it is not natural. The HIV viruses are a completely different family. When the virus passes, regardless of how many are killed or not killed there will be the rumblings of war. There is no way that states can stand for bio-weapons being created and used (even by accident). They must act against what they think are the perpetrators. Or it is only a matter of time until an improved virus is released in their capital city.
Look how disruptive this has already been to international travel and it has only just begun if the infection growth and R0 values are to be considered. The costs must be well into 40 billion dollars already, perhaps $100b. 2 weeks of productivity lost right across China and Asia. That is expensive.
Why worry about the Tower of Babel, it was just another building. Why worry about Sodom and Gomorrah it was just another town where people were sodomizing each other.
You say the prayer to St. Michael at the end of mass, but don't appreciate that at some point that 100 years of Satan is up. This looks like it might be the final throw of the dice. "Defend us in this day of battle". That implies that the day of battle comes to a close (because a day comes to a close). The vision of Pope Leo certainly implies this. Satan is given a finite period of time of 100 years. Looking at the dire state of the church today if this is not it, the satan has won the wager. We've even seen long term traditionalists on this forum quit and leave the RCC and join Orthodox, Islam whatever. Who comes after Pope Francis and how can anyone take the Catholic Church in Rome seriously?
Everything is a conspiracy theory until it is not. How do you think the virus will stop infecting people and when? Explain your thoughts as to why it is nothing to worry about and what will stop it.
I didn't say that coronavirus is nothing worry about. It could be very serious indeed, but it doesn't have to be a deliberately engineered bio-weapon either, whether released accidentally or on purpose after having been stolen from a Canadian biolab and tinkered with by the Chinese. It could simply be a very dangerous virus, one of many that have caused millions of human deaths throughout history. If a mundane answer is sufficient - it's a virus of entirely natural origin - then why look for more exotic reasons.
Perhaps the coronavirus picked up a bit of HIV along the way somehow. Do you know enough about the behaviour of viruses to say this couldn't happen? Neither do I.
But perhaps the Four Horsemen are actually riding out as we speak. There are swarms of locusts ravaging crops across East Africa right now. There have been lots of earthquakes in divers places recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-aJTY8PipM
But if they are, if the four horsemen are on the move, then it's because their time has come, and if this is the big one, it could just as easily be the result of a simple virus, like the Black Death and the Spanish flu, and not something deliberately engineered.
Anyway, how's this for gallows humour? The UK coach firm which transported the passengers evacuated from China to their quarantine centre, the same coach from which didn't supply its drivers with masks or any protective clothing, has the name Horsemen and the four coaches have now been called the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1236255/Coronavirus-latest-four-horsemen-coaches-british-flight
I don't know how to extract and post images from this article. But have a look. It's worth a laugh.
If this turns out to be lab created, mixing SARS with AIDS, imagine the tariffs Trump will put on China. IF this is the case, I imagine it was a leak, not deliberate. Which itself is scary.
First death outside of China in Philippines. Total reported deaths around 400 now. Total reported cases will soon exceed 20,000.
Death rates reported in the West are the most critical.
Thailand claims to have cured an elderly patient who had been in increasingly worse health for 10 days due to the coronavirus. They used a mixture of flu and HIV antivirals and within 12 hours the patient was in good health and in 48 hours the coronavirus was fully eliminated. This hopefully can be replicated elsewhere.
The whole situation is rather odd. I am sure the death count is too low but by how much? Given how cold viruses spread I assume that the true number infected is hundreds of thousands. Can China's death count really be off by 10x+? Seems like a stretch. Also the only overseas death is from another country with lousy medical care. Yet the Chinese government's reaction is still extremely strong and getting even more severe. There seems to be a major disconnect that I've yet to figure out. As James has said we need to wait for more overseas data during February and early March.
There is of course the theory that one should never let a crisis go to waste. Tinfoil hat says China is taking extreme action as to use this as a time to reset their broken financial system. Scapegoat bat soup for their losses and start fresh again.
A 39 year old gentleman in HK just passed away from the coronavirus. A bad sign given age and top quality HK medical system.
RIP those whom have passed.
Latest from ZH:
1. 20,500 confirmed cases.
2. 170,000 cases under observation in China.
3. 25% considered "very serious". Means if you don't get to a hospital, you die.
4. 427 reported deaths. 2 outside of China.
Wenzhou (land of super rich Chinese) and Hangzhou (major tourist city, home of Alibaba) are shut down. No one can come or go, cannot even leave your home except for one family member every other day. Roadblocks setup cross city with temperature checks for anyone walking outside. Combined populations 20 million. These are east coast cities far from Wuhan. They are also major manufacturing hubs. Expect massive supply chain problems to immediately ripple out world wide courtesy of globalization and the just-in-time economic model. When the whole economy and system is priced to perfection, even something as small as 1 micron can topple it.
At this rate expect Shanghai and Guangzhou to be shut down soon. For me I am wondering if HK is on the chopping block in a few weeks.
Just read this. Need to research it more. Late here must sleep
Many people are wondering why no foreigners are dying, just Chinese . It is rather weird.
It is possible, that children are acting as asymptomatic super-spreaders. Children very typically do not travel..
https://theconversation.com/amp/how-contagious-is-the-wuhan-coronavirus-and-can-you-spread-it-before-symptoms-start-130686?__twitter_impression=true
Wouldn't that be a bit of Divine Justice? A country with a one child policy then gets infected by asymptomatic children as a strong message from God.. Have not heard of a single child death yet except the disabled boy whose father got sick with the CV and local officals social workers let him starve to death.
According to Dr Pawe? Grzesiowski from the Medical Centre of Postgraduate Education in Warsaw, Poland, there is no certainty in how the virus will behave.
He told the Polish Times last week: "The latest publication, literally from yesterday, a description of the first 425 cases indicates the average age of the patients is 59, people mainly die after the age of 60 and with accompanying diseases, and most odd of all, children under the age of 15 do not get sick at all.
"But we still lack more detailed information. In the first weeks, the ill were mainly men who were likely infected at the infamous Wuhan market.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 04, 2020, 06:03:51 AM
At this rate expect Shanghai and Guangzhou to be shut down soon. For me I am wondering if HK is on the chopping block in a few weeks.
Could go either way. CCP is weakened, or CCP clamps down on HK to distract angry mainlanders from focusing on how corrupt and dishonest they are in managing this virus. Example, Argentina invaded the Falklands in 1982 as a populist move when the Junta (military dictator government) was very unpopular. After the British kicked them out the Junta fell.
Latest rough numbers:
29,000 reported infected
600 dead.
US at 12 infected.
Japan is looking promising. 45 cases. No deaths.
ZH reported a leak from China with screen grab: 150,000 infected. 24,000 dead. The infected number looks realistic. The death count looks way too high.
One possibility, you can survive this if you are treated in a hospital. Basically you do inhalation steroids to keep your lungs working until your recover. So if 150,000 are really infected, then how many of those do you think are getting inhalation steroids? Even if we take the official number of 29,000, imagine how many nurses and how many dose it would require. You might be using on the order of 100,000 doses A DAY. Or you can put them on oxygen. Do they have 29,000 masks and stations to administer oxygen? So the screen grab link might be true and might reflect an UNTREATED death rate, though that's a death rate of 16%.
It will be interesting to get case reports now out of Japan where they have 45 cases. Perhaps giving steroids and oxygen allows you to recover.
Conclusion: Shut the border and don't let your medical system get overwhelmed.
P.S. -- look at my previous official stats from yesterday. This thing is out of control in China.
We have to think about economic impacts. Factories in China are going to be closed. This means parts shipped to assembly plants are going to stop. World wide we are headed for a deep recession. Then you get knock on effects such as bankruptcies and pension blow ups. Go to safety. The safest investment, better than a bank, is T bills. Look at treasurydirect.gov. Easy to invest. Also gold should do very well.
Luckily thanks to Trump the U.S. is the best place to have your money right now.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on January 26, 2020, 08:59:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRkDD7Qkrp8
I think there is good advice in this video.
Also last Sunday after Mass a lady was talking about Thieves Oil. "As the story goes, during the height of the Bubonic plague sweeping Europe and Asia, four thieves from Marseilles became famous for robbing the possessions of the infected dead – yet never caught the plague themselves." The 5 ingredients of Thieves Oil are clove, cinnamon bark, eucalyptus, rosemary and lemon. The recipe for how to make it as well as how to use it can be found on this web site.
https://blog.paleohacks.com/thieves-oil/
Went into an aerospace defense manufacturer's site yesterday and security was making people sign waivers that stated they had no contact with any Chinese person or have been to China in the last year. Supposedly to stop the threat of this Coronavirus.
Looks like the US and her citizens are going to use the nCoV to clamp down and restrict Chinese access to our sensitive sites, which is a good move.
One must also consider that the nCoV scare could be a trillion $$ deception by the CCP to destabilize global markets and interrupt the global supply chain in preparation for, and conjunction with, the upheaval Trump's seemingly immanent reelection will bring.
Quote from: mikemac on February 05, 2020, 08:45:15 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on January 26, 2020, 08:59:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRkDD7Qkrp8
I think there is good advice in this video.
I've watched a number of his videos on intermittent fasting.
Quote from: mikemac on February 05, 2020, 08:45:15 PM
Also last Sunday after Mass a lady was talking about Thieves Oil. "As the story goes, during the height of the Bubonic plague sweeping Europe and Asia, four thieves from Marseilles became famous for robbing the possessions of the infected dead – yet never caught the plague themselves." The 5 ingredients of Thieves Oil are clove, cinnamon bark, eucalyptus, rosemary and lemon. The recipe for how to make it as well as how to use it can be found on this web site.
https://blog.paleohacks.com/thieves-oil/
Sounds like it could be very effective at repelling fleas. So it would prevent you from becoming infected if the virus is transmitted by that carrier.
QuoteDr. Li, 34, was hospitalized on January 12 after contracted the virus from his patient, and he was confirmed to have the coronavirus on February 1, and The World Health organization has just confirmed his passing...
This is confirmed by WHO. So a 34 year old gets the virus, goes to the hospital, and dies in a little less than a month. Not good.
adding again this week another 25 pound bag of rice ($10) and case of beans ($10) to online grocery list via Sam' Club/Instacart (one month's worth of food). added "gun and pawn shop" to my errand list.
Quote from: james03 on February 06, 2020, 11:56:45 AM
QuoteDr. Li, 34, was hospitalized on January 12 after contracted the virus from his patient, and he was confirmed to have the coronavirus on February 1, and The World Health organization has just confirmed his passing...
This is confirmed by WHO. So a 34 year old gets the virus, goes to the hospital, and dies in a little less than a month. Not good.
The NYT this morning has said that he is still alive but near death.
It still doesn't make sense, closing down cities for what's supposed to be a flu virus.
It has been claimed on the basis of a figure of c. 24,000 dead temporarily flashing up on 10 Cent's fatality tracker, that the Communist authorities are lying to a pathological degree. That new hospital built in warp time looks more like a cross between prison and dying rooms. Some say that could be Red China's Chernobyl, that Chinese will develop a sort of defiant contempt that many Russians were said to have developed towards the Soviet authorities post Chernobyl and Afghanistan. Maybe.
The new "hospitals" are death concentration camps. They grab people who are sick and isolate them until they are dead. You can't have the oxygen and medicine needed, as well as staff, to handle 50,000 people.
In other news, Japan is up to 86 sick. Still zero dead. That is promising. Again, bottom line: close the border and keep our medical system from getting swamped.
Quote from: Miriam_M on February 06, 2020, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: james03 on February 06, 2020, 11:56:45 AM
QuoteDr. Li, 34, was hospitalized on January 12 after contracted the virus from his patient, and he was confirmed to have the coronavirus on February 1, and The World Health organization has just confirmed his passing...
This is confirmed by WHO. So a 34 year old gets the virus, goes to the hospital, and dies in a little less than a month. Not good.
The NYT this morning has said that he is still alive but near death.
QuoteA Chinese doctor who tried to issue the first warnings about the deadly coronavirus outbreak has died, the hospital treating him has said.
...
Dr Li, an ophthalmologist, posted his story on Weibo from a hospital bed a month after sending out his initial warning.
He had noticed seven cases of a virus that he thought looked like Sars - the virus that led to a global epidemic in 2003.
On 30 December he sent a message to fellow doctors in a chat group warning them to wear protective clothing to avoid infection.
Four days later he was summoned to the Public Security Bureau where he was told to sign a letter. In the letter he was accused of "making false comments" that had "severely disturbed the social order".
He was one of eight people who police said were being investigated for "spreading rumours" Local authorities later apologised to Dr Li.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795
Quote from: Maximilian on February 06, 2020, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: mikemac on February 05, 2020, 08:45:15 PM
Also last Sunday after Mass a lady was talking about Thieves Oil. "As the story goes, during the height of the Bubonic plague sweeping Europe and Asia, four thieves from Marseilles became famous for robbing the possessions of the infected dead – yet never caught the plague themselves." The 5 ingredients of Thieves Oil are clove, cinnamon bark, eucalyptus, rosemary and lemon. The recipe for how to make it as well as how to use it can be found on this web site.
https://blog.paleohacks.com/thieves-oil/
Sounds like it could be very effective at repelling fleas. So it would prevent you from becoming infected if the virus is transmitted by that carrier.
Yeah, you are probably right, seeing it was fleas that spread the Bubonic plague.
Quote from: mikemac on February 06, 2020, 08:26:24 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on February 06, 2020, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: james03 on February 06, 2020, 11:56:45 AM
QuoteDr. Li, 34, was hospitalized on January 12 after contracted the virus from his patient, and he was confirmed to have the coronavirus on February 1, and The World Health organization has just confirmed his passing...
This is confirmed by WHO. So a 34 year old gets the virus, goes to the hospital, and dies in a little less than a month. Not good.
The NYT this morning has said that he is still alive but near death.
QuoteA Chinese doctor who tried to issue the first warnings about the deadly coronavirus outbreak has died, the hospital treating him has said.
...
Dr Li, an ophthalmologist, posted his story on Weibo from a hospital bed a month after sending out his initial warning.
He had noticed seven cases of a virus that he thought looked like Sars - the virus that led to a global epidemic in 2003.
On 30 December he sent a message to fellow doctors in a chat group warning them to wear protective clothing to avoid infection.
Four days later he was summoned to the Public Security Bureau where he was told to sign a letter. In the letter he was accused of "making false comments" that had "severely disturbed the social order".
He was one of eight people who police said were being investigated for "spreading rumours" Local authorities later apologised to Dr Li.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795
Yes, I believe he died since the NYT article I mentioned earlier.
Guangzhou (near HK) is on a partial lockdown now (not precise on details). Rumor is Shenzhen (across HK border) is coming soon. Tomorrow HK begins a mandatory 14-day quarantine for all visitors whom have been in the mainland recently. The supermarkets are low inventory city wide. On Tuesday rumors circulated that there would not be another shipment of toilet paper to the city and so people panic purchased all of the toilet paper, tissues and paper towels on the shelves. All rice and soap products sold out as well.
We always maintain a fairly large inventory of everything at our house anyways, but starting two weeks ago I began truly hording supplies, so for our family we are set for many months. But I did make more trips to the market yesterday and it was indeed very slim pickings. Photos online show total sell-outs in more busy parts of town.
Every night hundreds to thousands of people line up overnight in the cold winter weather to wait for surgical mask deliveries to arrive at various pharmacies. One shop had a line of over 10,000 (!) overnight to buy their incoming 11,000 box shipment.
My friend in Florida tried to buy N95 but could only find two individually wrapped masks and he bought both. My aunt is a nurse at a doctor's office in Delaware and said not even her office could find surgical masks to buy anymore.
About 70-80% of China's manufacturing GDP is now under lockdown. The supply chain ripple will be massive unless this lockdown ends in a week or so. If this drags on for a month or longer it will be crazy. Hyundai has already closed down its South Korean factories because it does not have parts to assemble its cars. Stuff like this will be happening everywhere. A lot of stuff that is "Made in America" won't be able to be made because it is lacking X Y Z component or chemical or whatever to finish the product.
What we have going on are two things. The first is the virus. The second is the reaction of the Chinese government. These are related but the former need not necessarily drive the bus of the latter. The worldwide supply shortage is coming unless the Chinese government reverses course in the coming week or two. It is already here for medical supplies (like masks, suits, etc). Next will be everything else. I have no prediction as to what they will do, the whole thing is rather shocking and totally out of character for them.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 07, 2020, 07:39:56 AM
What we have going on are two things. The first is the virus. The second is the reaction of the Chinese government. These are related but the former need not necessarily drive the bus of the latter. The worldwide supply shortage is coming unless the Chinese government reverses course in the coming week or two. It is already here for medical supplies (like masks, suits, etc). Next will be everything else. I have no prediction as to what they will do, the whole thing is rather shocking and totally out of character for them.
What part do you consider "out of character for them"? Others have said quite the opposite.
What products would we need to stock up on or prepare for?
Next Christmas , toys will definitely be low which is no harm anyway. Bicycles, computers, phones, electrical, batteries?,
300 deaths, probably not much more than die of such symptoms over the same period in any given year in China, and the whole place is on lockdown! It's absurd!
This is pure hysteria. No "virus" ever killed anyone. These people are malnourished and poisoned and most of them symptomatically diagnosed without even testing them for so-called viral antigens or antibodies; if you have "flu" now in China, you have "coronavirus" by default. It's like the "Spanish flu", coming after the biggest damned war the world had ever seen, with people starved for good food and affected by industrial-scale poisoning through toxic byproducts of massive arms manufacturing and apocalyptic-scale deployment of chemical weapons, but blamed on an alleged microbe whose existence is only "known" through abstract detection of some organic matter or electron microscope artefacts. Good diet, clean water, and dosing high amounts of Vitamin C would prevent 100% of these deaths in people who aren't already weak and dying.
I've "caught" colds without even going outside the confines of my home, and now I don't even know what he "flu" or a "cold" are anymore, because after eating an all-natural and organic nutrient-dense diet, filtering water, and cutting out chemicals from my daily life, it's been years since I came down with so much as a sniffle. It's not a stronger immuen system, it's not constantly poisoning yourself and causing your body to go into periodic shutdown.
Quote from: MaximGun on February 04, 2020, 07:45:52 PM
Many people are wondering why no foreigners are dying, just Chinese . It is rather weird.
Because it's not a "virus" causing this.
Quote from: james03 on February 05, 2020, 07:00:42 PM
ZH reported a leak from China with screen grab: 150,000 infected. 24,000 dead. The infected number looks realistic. The death count looks way too high.
Are they going to tell me they tested blood samples of 150,000 people for this virus? A cartload of horse manure.
QuoteOne possibility, you can survive this if you are treated in a hospital.
You'll survive this like you'll survive anything if you're reasonably healthy and remove yourself from the source of the poisoning. Hospitals filled with other patients are death traps.
All this talk reminds me of when AIDS was just GRID and bathhouse homosexuals having sex with dozens of strangers a week, sniffing poppers every night, taking copious amounts of recreational drugs, and permanently on antibiotics for all the bacterial infections they caught from anal sex, so they blamed the destruction of their immune systems and digestion and development of cancers that lead to them dying in their 20s and 30s on an unknown "retrovirus". You know, just like they blamed a similar decline in junkies on a dirty needle instead of the flipping drug abuse. Then they put them on AZT, a chemo drug, that successfully kills cancer and whatever else along with everything else, including, in time, the patient. But, yah know, it was still the HIV that killed them.
Miriam,
QuoteWhat part do you consider "out of character for them"? Others have said quite the opposite.
Nothing like this has happened before. They are bolting chains on to doors to quarantine people in homes. They have issued "passports" to monitor that one member of the family can leave home every other day. Roadblocks setup to check passports and temperature.
But most out of character is their shutdown of the economy. Money is heavenly to the Chinese and stopping work is out of the question. Even holidays are bogus as they merely make everyone go to work on the weekends before and after big holidays to makeup for it. Now they've basically shut down 70%+ of their economy on an indefinite hiatus.
While Russia cares not what the West thinks of it, China certainly does. Its hit to reputation and credibility from this are huge. Also within China there is increasing anger over the crisis. For a culture that is heavily invested in reputation and harmony, this is all out of character.
Diaduit,
QuoteWhat products would we need to stock up on or prepare for?
Next Christmas , toys will definitely be low which is no harm anyway. Bicycles, computers, phones, electrical, batteries?
As usual with preparation, it is anything you plan to use over the next few months. For example, if you take any medicines, you want to have that inventory on hand rather than relying upon its availability later. Whether you consider the virus a concern is up to you - if you did then you'd want food on hand.
There will be surprises to the supply chain outside of the obvious plastic toys. All sorts of components are made in China that other countries use to assemble bigger products. Technology and cars are obvious examples. Others are much more difficult to know. What about industrial metals like steel and aluminum? The US imports much from China, how much of it goes into things like food cans? Who knows. Or plastics or even specific additive chemicals used to make plastics that go into bags? China is a major exporter of food and supplement chemicals - even if you don't eat processed food, your neighbor does, and if that supply starts getting disrupted, he might rotate into whole foods which shocks that demand. Or what of the chemicals used to treat paper products like tissues and paper towels - that paper is not naturally soft. How much, if any, of those chemicals come from China?
It is hard to know other than that its obvious that China is a massive supplier and turning it off will have massive and strange surprising effects. And none of this takes into account secondary effects like recessionary reactions like autoplants being forced to shut down (and the ripple effects of those people going unpaid) or tertiary effects like further money printing to extend and pretend.
However, if China gives up its lockdowns and goes back to normal next week then we won't see any shock. But if they drag this on for weeks there will be problems.
35,000 confirmed cases. 722 dead. USA reporting 3 recovered, which is promising. Still 12 cases in USA. No info on those that were put in quarantine on the military base.
Hopefully Trump shut things down in time.
So far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/reporters-notebook-life-and-death-in-a-wuhan-coronavirus-icu
This is a worthwhile read. This doctor explains the situation on the ground including his own statistics. It seems reasonable that things will improve with better facilities and equipment. The system was caught off guard.
Quote from: james03 on February 07, 2020, 09:13:00 PM
35,000 confirmed cases.
Utter nonsense. Confirmed
by what? Symptoms which it has in common with numerous kinds of flu?
QuoteSo far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
QuoteAccording to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , flu caused about 60,000 American fatalities between 2017 and 2018.
Lol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms .
This thread is RETARDED.
The real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 08, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
QuoteSo far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
QuoteAccording to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , flu caused about 60,000 American fatalities between 2017 and 2018.
Lol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms .
This thread is RETARDED.
The real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
May I ask you this in all sincerity, but are you on the Autism Spectrum? Snarky, sniveling, bratty, are just a few terms to describe your posts. All of them. Not once have you ever had anything uplifting to say, nor do you concede at anything. You are a douchebag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeyyCNoLEz8&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2ZtkuTMlWxSnVHu8Qg21v7UM0Q1W9aRknLsrq8Km9ga-ppUuResoVExsI
QuoteLol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms
The coronavirus is diagnosed by PCR tests rather than symptoms.
The 10k or so flu deaths in the US are spread across 330 million whereas in Wuhan it is 500 or so deaths across the remaining 6 million or so people. We are off by around an order of magnitude. Also the coronavirus seems to be more infectious than the flu, again worsening matters. And that it is new and sudden means hospitals are less capable of assisting coronavirus patients than they are with flu patients.
QuoteThe real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
People whom have not even travelled to China have been diagnosed with this coronavirus. Non-Wuhan visitors have died in provinces hundreds of km from Wuhan. It is good that you healed yourself through detoxing but that does not mean every problem is one of chemical toxins.
Davis, why are they dragging sick people to quarantine, sick but not looking like they are at death's door. YouTube clips doing the rounds, talk of police checking people's tempature randomly.
Quote from: diaduit on February 08, 2020, 05:42:58 PM
Davis, why are they dragging sick people to quarantine, sick but not looking like they are at death's door. YouTube clips doing the rounds, talk of police checking people's tempature randomly.
Hi diaduit. I replied to your PM asking you what doses and brands your mother took.
QuoteDavis, why are they dragging sick people to quarantine, sick but not looking like they are at death's door. YouTube clips doing the rounds, talk of police checking people's tempature randomly.
Diaduit, the quarantine is of entire cities, not merely people presenting symptoms. The virus is infectious while asymptomatic and can take up to 14 days before first symptoms present. There are almost certainly many hundreds of thousands whom are infected but do not know it. The goal is to stop human movement on a widescale to decrease the rate of infections. As it is their hospitals have long since had no room - they need to slow down the rate with which new patients arrive.
Many cities have banned all movement except for one family member to leave once every two days to visit the market. Tickets and what-not have been facilitated to attempt to manage this. Temperature checks (which arent very useful) are stationed all around town. The less human interaction there is the fewer infections and hopefully that can buy them time to produce provisions for their hospitals and better organize medical labor & facilities.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 07, 2020, 05:22:15 PM
Miriam,
QuoteWhat part do you consider "out of character for them"? Others have said quite the opposite.
Nothing like this has happened before. They are bolting chains on to doors to quarantine people in homes. They have issued "passports" to monitor that one member of the family can leave home every other day. Roadblocks setup to check passports and temperature.
But most out of character is their shutdown of the economy. Money is heavenly to the Chinese and stopping work is out of the question. Even holidays are bogus as they merely make everyone go to work on the weekends before and after big holidays to makeup for it. Now they've basically shut down 70%+ of their economy on an indefinite hiatus.
While Russia cares not what the West thinks of it, China certainly does. Its hit to reputation and credibility from this are huge. Also within China there is increasing anger over the crisis. For a culture that is heavily invested in reputation and harmony, this is all out of character.
The fact that the government is a team of control freaks has been consistently true (before this outbreak), and it is what they are doing now. Now, if you're saying that they didn't do this with SARS, that may be true, but i.m.o. their attempt to silence the populace is very much tied to their concern for their economy: that's entirely the point. The worse this epidemic looks, the more their economy and global stature suffer. They're in a complete panic.
Quote from: mikemac on February 08, 2020, 05:56:21 PM
Quote from: diaduit on February 08, 2020, 05:42:58 PM
Davis, why are they dragging sick people to quarantine, sick but not looking like they are at death's door. YouTube clips doing the rounds, talk of police checking people's tempature randomly.
Hi diaduit. I replied to your PM asking you what doses and brands your mother took.
Sorry mikemac, I am in my dads house today and I will get the info for you. I know the b12 was ordered in the us anyway as it was not available in Europe.
Quote from: Heinrich on February 08, 2020, 10:58:51 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 08, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
QuoteSo far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
QuoteAccording to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , flu caused about 60,000 American fatalities between 2017 and 2018.
Lol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms .
This thread is RETARDED.
The real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
May I ask you this in all sincerity, but are you on the Autism Spectrum? Snarky, sniveling, bratty, are just a few terms to describe your posts. All of them. Not once have you ever had anything uplifting to say, nor do you concede at anything. You are a douchebag.
As expected, you have no argument.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 08, 2020, 04:45:49 PM
QuoteLol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms
The coronavirus is diagnosed by PCR tests rather than symptoms.
Rubbish have the Chinese administered PCR tests to hundreds of thousands if not millions of people for 150k to test positive. Not that it matters anyway, since "viral" genetic material is symptomatic, not causative, of disease.
QuoteThe 10k or so flu deaths in the US are spread across 330 million whereas in Wuhan it is 500 or so deaths across the remaining 6 million or so people. We are off by around an order of magnitude.
What? If you want to focus on Wuhan alone, it has a population of 11 million. The numbers you give result in 1 death every 33k people versus 1 death every 22k people respectively. I'm not "off" by anything.
QuoteAlso the coronavirus seems to be more infectious than the flu, again worsening matters.
There's no evidence of this, just like there's no evidence "coronavirus" causes disease, only detection of the presence of particular organic material in
some people who have a set of very general symptoms.
Person A has symptoms S and tests positive for virus X. Person B has symptoms T and tests positive for virus X. Person C has symptoms S and tests positive for virus Y. Person D has no symptoms but tests positive for virus X. Presence of virus X is neither necessary nor sufficient for presence of symptoms S or T, but presence of virus X and symptoms S or T together is called a disease caused by X.
This isn't science. It's never been science.
QuoteAnd that it is new and sudden means hospitals are less capable of assisting coronavirus patients than they are with flu patients.
I'd be willing to bet flu diagnoses in Wuhan this month have dwindled to nothing.
QuotePeople whom have not even travelled to China have been diagnosed with this coronavirus.
Yes, just like virgins who have never shared a needle or received blood can test positive for "HIV". Because anyone, perfectly healthy people with no symptoms included, can test positive for the presence of any "virus".
QuoteNon-Wuhan visitors have died in provinces hundreds of km from Wuhan. It is good that you healed yourself through detoxing but that does not mean every problem is one of chemical toxins.
I didn't "heal" myself. I banished all these seasonal diseases allegedly caused by viruses from my life. Because they aren't caused by tiny microbes only detectable under an electron microscope using special preparatory protocols. And the hysteria surrounding bacteria is little different. I've eaten raw eggs almost daily for a decade, eaten raw meat for years, and even eaten "rotten" meat brimming with bacteria left in jars without salting or refrigeration, and all without the slightest hint of food poisoning that ought to have had me hospitalised with salmonella or E. coli a dozen times over.
This "pandemic" will blow over and coronavirus will cease to be a news item by early summer, just in time for 5g. I'm calling it now. And all the apocalyptic fear-mongers and their hysterical victims will be left looking like idiots, as they always are, having served their purpose.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 04:21:11 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on February 08, 2020, 10:58:51 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 08, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
QuoteSo far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
QuoteAccording to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , flu caused about 60,000 American fatalities between 2017 and 2018.
Lol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms .
This thread is RETARDED.
The real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
May I ask you this in all sincerity, but are you on the Autism Spectrum? Snarky, sniveling, bratty, are just a few terms to describe your posts. All of them. Not once have you ever had anything uplifting to say, nor do you concede at anything. You are a douchebag.
As expected, you have no argument. Piss off, Hun.
Hey ....
Exsuge Domine has just been banned for breaking Conduct Rule 1. People complained. Is that why the ban happened?
So, if neither Kreuzritter nor Heinrich complains, that's alright then? They can go on insulting each other with impunity?
Therefore, if you're going to insult someone on this forum, make sure it's someone who won't complain to Kaesekopf.
Meanwhile, Kreuzritter and Heinrich, carry on and sorry for the interruption.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on February 09, 2020, 05:05:25 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 04:21:11 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on February 08, 2020, 10:58:51 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 08, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
QuoteSo far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
QuoteAccording to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , flu caused about 60,000 American fatalities between 2017 and 2018.
Lol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms .
This thread is RETARDED.
The real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
May I ask you this in all sincerity, but are you on the Autism Spectrum? Snarky, sniveling, bratty, are just a few terms to describe your posts. All of them. Not once have you ever had anything uplifting to say, nor do you concede at anything. You are a douchebag.
As expected, you have no argument. Piss off, Hun.
Hey ....
Exsuge Domine has just been banned for breaking Conduct Rule 1. People complained. Is that why the ban happened?
So, if neither Kreuzritter nor Heinrich complain, that's alright then? They can go on insulting each other with impunity?
Therefore, if you're going to insult someone on this forum, make sure it's someone who won't complain to Kaesekopf.
Meanwhile, Kreuzritter and Heinrich, carry on and sorry for the interruption.
Did I start this with him? He's obsessed with me. His delivery of insults is even so rich and detailed, filled with strings of adjectives. But it appears he, like several others, can't deliver a single argument.
Anyway, I'll edit the anti-German quip out.
Quote from: Heinrich on February 08, 2020, 10:58:51 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 08, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
QuoteSo far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
QuoteAccording to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , flu caused about 60,000 American fatalities between 2017 and 2018.
Lol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms .
This thread is RETARDED.
The real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
May I ask you this in all sincerity, but are you on the Autism Spectrum? Snarky, sniveling, bratty, are just a few terms to describe your posts. All of them. Not once have you ever had anything uplifting to say, nor do you concede at anything. You are a douchebag.
Oh, by the way, my contribution to this fear-mongering thread is entirely
positive. There is nothing to fear and you can avoid this illness through proper, organic animal-food-based nutrition and elimination from ones life of toxic products consumed by the masses.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 05:08:32 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on February 09, 2020, 05:05:25 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 04:21:11 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on February 08, 2020, 10:58:51 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 08, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
QuoteSo far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
QuoteAccording to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , flu caused about 60,000 American fatalities between 2017 and 2018.
Lol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms .
This thread is RETARDED.
The real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
May I ask you this in all sincerity, but are you on the Autism Spectrum? Snarky, sniveling, bratty, are just a few terms to describe your posts. All of them. Not once have you ever had anything uplifting to say, nor do you concede at anything. You are a douchebag.
As expected, you have no argument. Piss off, Hun.
Hey ....
Exsuge Domine has just been banned for breaking Conduct Rule 1. People complained. Is that why the ban happened?
So, if neither Kreuzritter nor Heinrich complain, that's alright then? They can go on insulting each other with impunity?
Therefore, if you're going to insult someone on this forum, make sure it's someone who won't complain to Kaesekopf.
Meanwhile, Kreuzritter and Heinrich, carry on and sorry for the interruption.
Did I start this with him? He's obsessed with me. His delivery of insults is even so rich and detailed, filled with strings of adjectives. But it appears he, like several others, can't deliver a single argument.
The point I'm trying to make is that you haven't complained to Kaesekopf. And I'm making this point because Exsurge Domine has just been banned for making comments that are no worse than yours or Heinrich's. I'm simply using the above exchange between you and Heinrich to make a point, not because your exchange bothers me, because it doesn't, not in the slightest.
It seems that if anyone is going to get into a heated exchange with another poster, make sure it's not with a poster who's likely to complain.
But keep on listening to the medical establishment. The same one that sees as many as 20% of boomer women come down with breast cancer but continues to prescribe the pill and say nothing about endocrine disrupting chemicals in water, plastic and personal care and household products. The same one one that prescribes liver-destroying accutane for an illness that can be eliminated through a low carb diet, iron level stabilisation, vitamin B5 supplementation and ultimately restoration of a gut microbiome destroyed by antibiotics. Just take your pills your doctor gets paid by pharma to prescribe. And keep listening to the purported "science" behind it.
QuoteWhat? If you want to focus on Wuhan alone, it has a population of 11 million. The numbers you give result in 1 death every 33k people versus 1 death every 22k people respectively. I'm not "off" by anything
Wuhan states 5 million left the city before CNY, hence I am using 6 million for the population as the deaths are predominantly occuring well into CNY (and after). Given the extreme quarantine and numerous lockdowns across the nation, I assume few if any of the 5 million have returned. And so in the last month Wuhan had 500 deaths over 6 million people, or 1 in 12k.
The US flu season so far has killed 10-12k, but flu season stretches back to October. It peaks somewhere around now so I'll ballpark that 5k occured in the past month across 330 mil Americans, or 1 in 66k.
And of course the stats in America are far more reliable than those in China - the China figure is almost certainly too low. US flu season is peaking now whereas we have no reason to believe the coronavirus is anywhere near its peak.
The overseas data over the next 5 weeks will be the most telling. If overseas looks good then its some local issue (air pollution, toxins, bad hospitals, whatever). But if we start seeing overseas deaths start to trickle in as we saw in early January, then its just beginning.
QuoteBut keep on listening to the medical establishment. The same one that sees as many as 20% of boomer women come down with breast cancer but continues to prescribe the pill and say nothing about endocrine disrupting chemicals in water, plastic and personal care and household products. The same one one that prescribes liver-destroying accutane for an illness that can be eliminated through a low carb diet, iron level stabilisation, vitamin B5 supplementation and ultimately restoration of a gut microbiome destroyed by antibiotics. Just take your pills your doctor gets paid by pharma to prescribe. And keep listening to the purported "science" behind it.
Probably almost all of us on this forum are as skeptical of modern Western medicine as you are.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 09, 2020, 06:59:01 AM
QuoteBut keep on listening to the medical establishment. The same one that sees as many as 20% of boomer women come down with breast cancer but continues to prescribe the pill and say nothing about endocrine disrupting chemicals in water, plastic and personal care and household products. The same one one that prescribes liver-destroying accutane for an illness that can be eliminated through a low carb diet, iron level stabilisation, vitamin B5 supplementation and ultimately restoration of a gut microbiome destroyed by antibiotics. Just take your pills your doctor gets paid by pharma to prescribe. And keep listening to the purported "science" behind it.
Probably almost all of us on this forum are as skeptical of modern Western medicine as you are.
Oh yes.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 05:08:32 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on February 09, 2020, 05:05:25 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 04:21:11 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on February 08, 2020, 10:58:51 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 08, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
QuoteSo far things in the US are cautiously optimistic.
QuoteAccording to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , flu caused about 60,000 American fatalities between 2017 and 2018.
Lol. So that's roughly 5,000 deaths in America from "flu" in January. Let's say the number is about 4 times that in China. That's 20,000 deaths from "flu". Versus several hundred from this alleged "coronavirus" which basically has the same symptoms .
This thread is RETARDED.
The real question is, and the better one to make sense of China's recent actions: what toxic substances have been released by Chinese industry that have poisoned all these people?
May I ask you this in all sincerity, but are you on the Autism Spectrum? Snarky, sniveling, bratty, are just a few terms to describe your posts. All of them. Not once have you ever had anything uplifting to say, nor do you concede at anything. You are a douchebag.
As expected, you have no argument. Piss off, Hun.
Hey ....
Exsuge Domine has just been banned for breaking Conduct Rule 1. People complained. Is that why the ban happened?
So, if neither Kreuzritter nor Heinrich complain, that's alright then? They can go on insulting each other with impunity?
Therefore, if you're going to insult someone on this forum, make sure it's someone who won't complain to Kaesekopf.
Meanwhile, Kreuzritter and Heinrich, carry on and sorry for the interruption.
Did I start this with him? He's obsessed with me. His delivery of insults is even so rich and detailed, filled with strings of adjectives. But it appears he, like several others, can't deliver a single argument.
Anyway, I'll edit the anti-German quip out.
Kreuzritter, I have to concur with Heinrich. Many of your posts are filled with (edit: vitriol) and arrogance toward people here. What gives? I mean, you are a very intelligent and articulate guy, and I get many of your criticisms, even the harsh ones, towards traditionalist assumptions. But if you look at your post history objectively, can you see how many are perceiving your behavior as troll-like? Would you be willing to honestly consider that, and offer some conciliatory words here for your behavior? If so, i honestly think you would make a good contribution here.
For the record, I am an American of Polish, Irish and Norwegian descent. Hot an ounce a 'kraut in me. Just been taking German classes and reading books and learning the language in like going on 40 years now.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 05:01:50 AM
This "pandemic" will blow over and coronavirus will cease to be a news item by early summer, just in time for 5g. I'm calling it now. And all the apocalyptic fear-mongers and their hysterical victims will be left looking like idiots, as they always are, having served their purpose.
Pretty much.
In this century alone we've had public hysteria about at least half a dozen viruses. The West Nile virus, the SARS, the bird flu, the swine flu, the Ebola, the measles outbreak, the Zika virus epidemic,
etc. Every two or four years, it seems there's something new going on that will presumably kill everyone.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on February 09, 2020, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 05:01:50 AM
This "pandemic" will blow over and coronavirus will cease to be a news item by early summer, just in time for 5g. I'm calling it now. And all the apocalyptic fear-mongers and their hysterical victims will be left looking like idiots, as they always are, having served their purpose.
Pretty much.
In this century alone we've had public hysteria about at least half a dozen viruses. The West Nile virus, the SARS, the bird flu, the swine flu, the Ebola, the measles outbreak, the Zika virus epidemic, etc. Every two or four years, it seems there's something new going on that will presumably kill everyone.
But never ever ever before have we seen such a shut down of a massive country who produces most of our products and this reaction is costing them billions maybe trillions by the time it's finished.
I've never worried about the other 'outbreaks' but this one has me worried.
Quote from: diaduit on February 09, 2020, 03:34:41 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on February 09, 2020, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 05:01:50 AM
This "pandemic" will blow over and coronavirus will cease to be a news item by early summer, just in time for 5g. I'm calling it now. And all the apocalyptic fear-mongers and their hysterical victims will be left looking like idiots, as they always are, having served their purpose.
Pretty much.
In this century alone we've had public hysteria about at least half a dozen viruses. The West Nile virus, the SARS, the bird flu, the swine flu, the Ebola, the measles outbreak, the Zika virus epidemic, etc. Every two or four years, it seems there's something new going on that will presumably kill everyone.
But never ever ever before have we seen such a shut down of a massive country who produces most of our products and this reaction is costing them billions maybe trillions by the time it's finished. I've never worried about the other 'outbreaks' but this one has me worried.
Look, one year from now the most likely scenario is that the Corona virus will be in the same apocalyptic bag of the other ones I just listed.
But even if this Chinese epidemic turns into a world wide plague that wipes off half of the planet, so what? Isn't that supposed to happen anyway? It's in Scripture. We're not going to live forever here and we're powerless to stop the unfolding of fate. It's better to worry about what we can do: to live honestly, to practice virtue and to be a positive influence to those around us.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on February 09, 2020, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 09, 2020, 05:01:50 AM
This "pandemic" will blow over and coronavirus will cease to be a news item by early summer, just in time for 5g. I'm calling it now. And all the apocalyptic fear-mongers and their hysterical victims will be left looking like idiots, as they always are, having served their purpose.
Pretty much.
In this century alone we've had public hysteria about at least half a dozen viruses. The West Nile virus, the SARS, the bird flu, the swine flu, the Ebola, the measles outbreak, the Zika virus epidemic, etc. Every two or four years, it seems there's something new going on that will presumably kill everyone.
When you're facing a problem that might metastasize, 'overreacting' can be the wise move. The central fallacy in your argument is that in all those cases, the widespread fear provoked strong medical and political action which contained the problem. That's the upside of taking pandemic threats seriously - crisis aversion. The downside is you have to suffer the aspersions of armchair philosophers. Let's just say it's a very good thing you're not a public health official.
Another good one I've been hearing plenty of lately is the old "as long as you're healthy you have nothing to worry about." The wanton selfishness of that little chestnut is beneath contempt.
There are two separate issues.
1) How do I respond to a deadly threat?
2) How credible is it that this threat is deadly?
The answer to the former is certainly not to say "oh well" and do nothing. The answer to the latter is that at minimum this is not a threat reported by the West but by the actions of China. It is apples and oranges to compare the workaholic Chinese nation shutting itself down to a bunch of Jews peddling the latest threat (wine kills you, sunlight kills you) to make an advertising buck.
Major cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen) which were never locked down but merely had the same extended national holiday are returning to work today in a partial capacity.
Well shucks.
China: 43,000 confirmed cases. 1000 dead. 7000 classified as "severe".
No deaths in Japan. 161 confirmed cases. A lot of that are people on a quarantined cruise ship.
Singapore is interesting. 45 confirmed cases. 7 listed as "severe". We'll see if there are any deaths there.
One additional case in San Diego. So total of 13 in the USA.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Iasiah 26.
Quote from: MaximGun on February 04, 2020, 07:45:52 PM
Just read this. Need to research it more. Late here must sleep
Many people are wondering why no foreigners are dying, just Chinese . It is rather weird.
It is possible, that children are acting as asymptomatic super-spreaders. Children very typically do not travel..
https://theconversation.com/amp/how-contagious-is-the-wuhan-coronavirus-and-can-you-spread-it-before-symptoms-start-130686?__twitter_impression=true
Wouldn't that be a bit of Divine Justice? A country with a one child policy then gets infected by asymptomatic children as a strong message from God.. Have not heard of a single child death yet except the disabled boy whose father got sick with the CV and local officals social workers let him starve to death.
According to Dr Pawe? Grzesiowski from the Medical Centre of Postgraduate Education in Warsaw, Poland, there is no certainty in how the virus will behave.
He told the Polish Times last week: "The latest publication, literally from yesterday, a description of the first 425 cases indicates the average age of the patients is 59, people mainly die after the age of 60 and with accompanying diseases, and most odd of all, children under the age of 15 do not get sick at all.
"But we still lack more detailed information. In the first weeks, the ill were mainly men who were likely infected at the infamous Wuhan market.
https://www.livescience.com/why-kids-missing-coronavirus-cases.html
This is a very odd feature of the virus. It is like God allows children to infect their parents and grandparents generations because their parents have not done their duty to raise a moral generation. Like the aborted souls are getting back at those who aborted them through their living siblings.
I wonder if children will turn out to be asymptomatic super-spreaders.
I received an email yesterday. A portion:
QuoteI understand you have a Joey pump for your enteral feedings. The joey pump manufacturer have contacted UICH stating the bag shortage will be until July or later.
The medical product shortage is real.
Its been fascinating to follow a news story were we don't have clear information or up to the minute data. The number of infected and dead is as believable as the Iowa Caucus. It probably will take weeks or months before we even have a clear picture of what is going on.
I am worried that this pandemic is going to be a big deal. I dont think other countries will handle this any better than China even with more time to prepare. Hopefully the detestable suburban sprawling car culture and proper hygiene will make this less of a problem in the United States. I cant see people here accepting being locked or welded in their homes.
Does suburban sprawl prevent the cold or flu from going around the US several times every year? You still have to go to work, school, the market just like everyone in China does. You still have deliverymen, repairmen, and the random neighbor / family member / children's friend come to the door. The virus is understood to have an up-to 24 day asymptomatic infectious incubation period and is spread by aerosolization rather than merely droplets. German researchers say it survives on surfaces for 9 days. Unless it burns itself out via mutation or antiviral, it seems unavoidable at this point. The best thing governments can do is reorganize their hospital resources and personnel to make more room for ICU respritators.
I suspect China realizes its people's war on the virus is impossible, so it will just pretend the virus is gone like how the West pretended it never had the Spanish Flu. It looks to be turning the factories back on to get needed supplies for its nation. I would not count on supplies specifically for this virus to be exported (like masks, hazmats, ventillators, etc). Hopefully unrelated ones like what Jacob needs will soon again be available.
It is of course possible that for unknown reasons the situation is actually imoroving there, but I doubt it.
Jacob I hope you can get what you need soon. I recommend contacting stores nationwide to buy what inventory is left that you need.
45,000 confirmed cases. 1115 official dead. No additional deaths outside of China, which is good. We are getting to the point where people outside of China start dying. So far we are not seeing it. This week is crucial for data. Japan appears to be the country to watch, followed by Singapore.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/11/world/asia/china-coronavirus-clusters.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
HONG KONG — An apartment building in Hong Kong, its units linked by pipes. A department store in the eastern Chinese city of Tianjin, where more than 11,000 shoppers and employees mingled. A ski chalet in France, home base for a group of British citizens on vacation.
These sites, scattered around the world, have become linked by a grim commonality: They are places where pockets of new coronavirus cases have emerged in recent days, raising fears about the virus's ability to spread quickly and far beyond its origins in central China.
Since the dangerous outbreak emerged in late December, the vast majority of cases have been concentrated in Wuhan, the city where the new virus was first reported. The authorities there and in the surrounding province have sealed off tens of millions of people in a desperate attempt at containment.
But as the outbreak's toll has mushroomed — it has claimed more than 1,100 lives in China and sickened more than 44,000 — it has become clear how easily the virus can be transmitted and how hard it may be to contain, even in communities around the world that are far removed from Wuhan. Many of the people infected had not even been there.
In Tianjin, the authorities ordered more than 10,000 people into quarantine, after they traced one-third of cases in the city to a single department store.
In Hong Kong on Tuesday, dozens of residents were evacuated from their apartment building overnight, as two people living 10 floors apart were found to be infected with the coronavirus. Officials said an unsealed pipe might be to blame.
And in Britain on Tuesday, a businessman who is believed to be the source of 10 other cases in Britain and France said that he showed no symptoms before testing positive for the coronavirus.
The new coronavirus, though most serious in China, "holds a very grave threat for the rest of the world," Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the director general of the World Health Organization, said at a forum in Geneva on Tuesday.
As the outbreak's health implications have mounted, so has its political toll: It is already one of the most significant crises for the central government in decades. China's ruling Communist Party dismissed two health officials in Hubei, the province at the center of the epidemic, and replaced them with a leader sent from Beijing. They were the first senior officials to be punished for the government's handling of the outbreak.
This week, the Chinese authorities urged factory workers and farmers to get back to work. But at the same time, other officials warned that there may be new outbreaks in the coming weeks — particularly in three populous provinces, Zhejiang, Guangdong and Henan — as migrant workers return to their jobs after the Lunar New Year break.
They also highlighted the role of clusters, which they defined as two or more infections within a relatively small area, in accelerating the disease's spread.
Wu Zunyou, the chief epidemiologist of China's Center for Disease Control and Prevention, said at a news conference on Tuesday that there had been nearly 1,000 clusters in China, with 83 percent occurring within families. But schools, factories, shopping centers and medical facilities also contributed to the spread, he said."
[The story continues, discussing what was mentioned in the first paragraph.]
A prisoner in Britain has tested positive for Covid19. He was transferred from prisons in Thailand. More evidence that Covid19 is going everywhere (just like a normal cold or flu) unless antivirals, mutation to a benign state, or an act of God prevents this.
EDIT: news seems unclear if its tested or positive, may merely be being tested and quarantined but not yet confirmed
QuoteIt is like God allows children to infect their parents and grandparents generations because their parents have not done their duty to raise a moral generation. Like the aborted souls are getting back at those who aborted them through their living siblings.
I would note that the one child policy forces abortions onto Chinese parents. Meanwhile in the West the abortions are done by the mother's own choice (or under duress from her parents / boyfriend / husband). Whereas the West was raised in the cradle of Christendom, the Chinese never had it. Keep that in mind when considering God's justice.
https://qz.com/1801361/wuhan-virus-citizen-journalists-fang-bin-chen-qiushi-go-missing/
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3050311/its-pneumonia-everybody-china-knows-about-many-deaths-will-never
From local HK English newspaper interviewing Wuhan residents whom say their deceased family members were hurriedly cremated and do not show up in official statistics.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 12, 2020, 12:08:57 AM
I would note that the one child policy forces abortions onto Chinese parents. Meanwhile in the West the abortions are done by the mother's own choice (or under duress from her parents / boyfriend / husband). Whereas the West was raised in the cradle of Christendom, the Chinese never had it. Keep that in mind when considering God's justice.
I'm sure I agree with you on that! That said....
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/china-ends-one-child-policy
QuoteOn this day in 2015, the Chinese government officially announces the end of its one-child policy, ending the most extreme state birth control project in history after 35 years.
Adapted from a two-child policy instituted in 1970, these extreme measures were deemed necessary due to concerns over the rapidly expanding Chinese population, which had ballooned from 540 million in 1949 to 940 million by 1976. Amid global fears of overpopulation, the Chinese government decided to limit families to one child each, although exceptions allowing for two children were common.
The government mandated intrauterine devices for women after giving birth to their first child, and women who had multiple children were frequently subject to forced sterilization. Families were fined for having more than one child. Enforcement of the rule was uneven across China, with exceptions commonly granted for couples whose first child was a girl or a boy who suffered from a disability. As such, by 2007 China Daily reported that less than 40 percent of the Chinese population was actually limited to one child. Still, the policy succeeded in dramatically decreasing the birth rate, which fell from 2.8 births per woman in 1979 to 1.5 in 2010.
The abolition of the policy in 2015 was not the end of state birth control programs in China—the government simply returned to the two-child policy that was in place before 1980. In addition to major criticisms of the state's forced IUD and sterilization programs, critics also point to statistics that suggest the one-child policy led to sex-selective abortion, usually of girls in rural China, and of the abandonment of many children, also predominately girls. Overcrowding in orphanages became common, and families also complained of the "4-2-1" problem—for every four elders, there could now legally be only two children and one grandchild to support them in their old age.
The government's reason for abandoning the one-child policy, "to improve the balanced development of population," hints at the gender discrimination and subsequent gender imbalance that resulted from the policy. Nevertheless, many Chinese, especially women, remain bitter at the state's treatment of families and its refusal to apologize for the one-child policy.
Some of the Chinese families I work with had two children in China, then came here to have their third.
And while I won't quote from the following, it disagrees with the date (2016, supposedly) and also discusses consequences and reversals of the above. Interesting about the 1.5 figure, also.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/beijings-one-child-policy-is-gone-but-many-chinese-are-still-reluctant-to-have-more/2019/05/02/c722e568-604f-11e9-bf24-db4b9fb62aa2_story.html
Not trying to derail the thread, just providing some perspective.
Yes, my wife (mainland Chinese) has a brother. The policy is far more complex than merely one child for every family. There are many heart breaking stories that come from it.
Official stats:
60,000 infected. 1365 dead. 8243 serious. Looks like the death rate will be between 10-20% untreated.
In Australia and Thailand it looks like 1/3 have recovered. Very promising.
So the take away remains: If you treat this, maybe the death rate is below 5%. If you allow your medical system to get overwhelmed (China), it will be higher and spread more.
No new deaths in Japan.
Another story to watch is economic collapse in China. Many experts are saying the reported infection rate in China is way low.
to understand what is going on watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpfR50lNuTg&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR21FHQngP7tHCIM3ufOPk8JwFuJyqZob_oOWVuIw6RKP3jEyODMZt0Bz5s
ZH reporting new case in San Diego. The good news is that both cases in SD occurred at the quarantine center. Hopefully we'll start to get some case data. We have a sizable number in Japan, Singapore, and Austrailia, so I imagine that data is being generated.
HK dioceses has cancelled all Masses until at least February 28th. This will likely get pushed back much further. My wife's baptism has been delayed to Pentecost at earliest.
HK schools further delayed till March 16th at earliest.
Quote from: martin88nyc on February 12, 2020, 10:00:19 PM
to understand what is going on watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpfR50lNuTg&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR21FHQngP7tHCIM3ufOPk8JwFuJyqZob_oOWVuIw6RKP3jEyODMZt0Bz5s
https://www.globalresearch.ca/all-sectors-us-establishment-lock-step-deep-states-latest-bio-war/5702773/amp
Quote
Global Research
VIDEO: The "Lock Step" Simulation Scenario: "A Coronavirus-like Pandemic that Becomes Trigger for Police State Controls"
Helen Buyniski
By now, those following the novel coronavirus epidemic are familiar with Event 201, the pandemic simulation staged by Johns Hopkins University in conjunction with the World Economic Forum, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Johnson & Johnson, and other ruling-class heavy hitters in October. The media establishment has already picked the story clean, set up and eviscerated a straw man ("No, Bill Gates didn't cause the coronavirus epidemic, silly conspiracy theorists!"), and convinced the group itself to issue a statement denying their exercise was meant to predict the behavior of the actual virus to follow.
But few are aware that the epidemic playing out in China and two dozen other countries, including the US, is unfolding in line with a decade-old simulation titled "Lock Step" devised by the Rockefeller Foundation in conjunction with the Global Business Network. The scenario, one of four included in a publication called "Scenarios for the Future of Technology and International Development" in 2010, describes a coronavirus-like pandemic that becomes the trigger for the imposition of police-state controls on movement, economy, and other areas of society.
The Lock Step scenario describes "a world of tighter top-down government control and more authoritarian leadership, with limited innovation and growing citizen pushback." In "2012" (i.e. two years after the report's publication), an "extremely virulent and deadly" strain of influenza originating with wild geese brings the world to its knees, infecting 20 percent of the global population and killing 8 million people in just seven months – "the majority of them healthy young adults." It devastates global economies and ruptures international trade. But not everyone, the Rockefeller Foundation makes clear, is hit equally.
Countries of Africa, southeast Asia, and central America suffer the worst "in the absence of official containment protocols" – it wouldn't be the Rockefeller Foundation if someone wasn't licking their lips at the thought of a mass die-off in the Global South – but western "democracies" also pay the ultimate price. "The United States' initial policy of 'strongly discouraging' citizens from flying proved deadly in its leniency, accelerating the spread of the virus not just within the US but across borders," the report warns. But remove such obstacles as 'individual rights' and you have a recipe for surviving, even thriving in the event of a pandemic, the Foundation gushes:
"A few countries did fare better – China in particular. The Chinese government's quick imposition and enforcement of mandatory quarantine for all citizens, as well as its instant and near-hermetic sealing-off of all borders, saved millions of lives, stopping the spread of the virus far earlier than in other countries and enabling a swifter post-pandemic recovery."
The message is clear – police state good, freedom bad. And other governments rapidly get the message, according to the simulation. First and third world nations alike follow suit by "flexing their authority" and imposing quarantines, body-temperature checks, and other "airtight rules and restrictions" – most of which, the report is careful to note, remain in place even as the pandemic recedes into the past. "In order to protect themselves from the spread of increasingly global problems – from pandemics and transnational terrorism to environmental crises and rising poverty – leaders around the world took a firmer grip on power."
This global power-grab is facilitated by a frightened citizenry who "willingly gave up some of their sovereignty – and their privacy – to more paternalistic states in exchange for greater safety and stability...tolerant, and even eager, for top-down direction and oversight." Everything from tighter biometric identification to stricter industrial regulation is welcomed with open arms. It takes over a decade for people to "grow weary" of the authoritarian controls imposed in the wake of the pandemic, and hints that even the civil unrest that ultimately manifests is focused on the developed world. After all, a popular uprising in the technocratic police state envisioned by the simulation would be all but impossible – as it will be in real life once 5G makes real-time total surveillance of all cities a reality.
Pin the blame on the dragon
It remains unclear what – or who – unleashed the novel coronavirus in Wuhan. The initial claim that it originated in bats from a "wet market," in which live animals are sold and then butchered in front of the customer, couldn't have been more perfect from a western point of view – wet markets are reviled in the West, where consumers prefer that the animal cruelty required to put meat on their tables happens behind closed doors. While wet markets would seem to improve food safety by making it impossible to sell "mystery," mislabeled or expired meat, time and again they are fingered as disease vectors by the disapproving West, every time followed by calls to ban them entirely. However, the Huanan seafood market hadn't sold bats for years, meaning – if the "wet market" hypothesis is to persist – an "intermediate host" species would be required to get the virus to humans. Snakes were nominated, even though scientists weren't sure they could be infected by a coronavirus – it was more important that they eat bats and were sold at the market. Three weeks after the Huanan seafood market was shuttered and disinfected, a Lancet study put the last nail in the hypothesis' coffin, revealing the first several coronavirus cases had no exposure to the market at all. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this has not discouraged the media from continuing to blame it for the epidemic.
Beyond the disintegrating "official story," rumormongers have pinned the blame on the Chinese government, suggesting that through malice or incompetence Beijing released a virus cooked up in a top-secret bioweapons program operating in the city's high-security lab. The chief purveyor of this theory is Dany Shoham, an Israeli biosafety analyst, which should raise a forest of red flags in anyone familiar with Israel's own experiments in gene-targeted biowarfare even before taking into account Shoham's own history of fraudulently blaming Saddam Hussein's Iraq for the 2001 anthrax attacks. Other outlets spreading this theory cite American biosafety consultant Tim Trevan, who opined in a 2017 Nature article – published before the Wuhan lab even opened! – that "diversity of viewpoint" and "openness of information" are both critical to the safe functioning of such a high-risk lab and alien to Chinese culture. The persistence of the "lab accident" theory of coronavirus' creation thus owes more to cultural chauvinism and sinophobia than any fact-based clues.
While many alt-media outlets have fingered Event 201 as the replica "drill" that so often coincides with a false flag event, few are aware that on the day after that simulation, the 2019 Military World Games kicked off in Wuhan, bringing 300 US military personnel to the city. Former Malaysian PM Matthias Chang, however, zeroed in on the games as the likely entry point for what he described as a biological war waged by the US against China. In an interview with the Institute for War and Peace Reporting last month, Chang placed coronavirus on a continuum of American bio-attacks he said included deliberate infection of Guatemalans with syphilis and gonorrhea and Cubans with dengue fever, as well as creating the Ebola epidemic in Sierra Leone.
As of February 4, there are over 1,000 times more coronavirus cases in China than outside of it, and the foreign cases appear to be ethnically Chinese where reported. This is not a coincidence – a recent scientific paper revealed the enzyme which serves as a receptor for novel coronavirus is produced by a certain type of lung cell found in "extremely large numbers" in Asian men compared to those of other ethnicities. Even more intriguingly, those lung cells are involved in the expression of "many other genes that positively regulating [sic] viral reproduction and transmission." The paper's authors stop short of suggesting the virus came out of a lab, instead drily observing that it seems to have "cleverly evolved to hijack this population of [lung] cells for its reproduction and transmission," but one man's clever viral evolution is another's expert bioweapon development.
Certainly, American researchers have been surreptitiously collecting Chinese DNA for decades. A notorious Harvard School of Public Health program in the mid-1990s drafted village medics to administer "free physicals" to locals "with asthmatic symptoms." These "checkups" were conducted as part of a genetic project that also involved the US National Institutes of Health and Millennium Pharmaceuticals, supposedly aimed at "identify[ing] and characteriz[ing] genes that play a role in causing asthma and other allergic disorders." It later emerged that the researchers had secured the required consent forms from neither the local experimental ethics board nor the test subjects themselves. A government inquiry was commandeered by an insider and squelched. Over 200,000 DNA samples were thus collected and spirited out of the country.
US military literature has been lusting after genetically-targeted weapons for at least 50 years. The infamous Project for a New American Century, whose members have been steering the US ship of state into a series of icebergs since the George W. Bush administration, described gene-specific bioweapons as a "politically-useful tool," part and parcel of the "new dimensions of combat" in which the future's wars would unfold. In 1998, the year after PNAC's formation, reports Israel was working on just such a weapon to target Arabs while leaving Jews untouched flooded the media – part PR campaign, part warning. And it is DARPA and other divisions of the US military, not the Chinese, that has been intensively studying bat-borne coronaviruses for years, even as their own high-security biowarfare labs are being shut down for shoddy safety procedures.
Meanwhile, the likelihood of the Chinese government unleashing a genetically-targeted virus on its own population is vanishingly low. Unlike popular attitudes of "white guilt" in the West born of a hangover from colonialism, the Chinese do not traffic in racial self-loathing – indeed, outsiders have accused the Chinese of an unspoken, unshakeable belief in their own racial superiority, and regardless of whether that belief is problematic, it is unlikely to lead to intentional self-genocide. Even if behavior-correcting false flag was sought by Beijing in Hong Kong, where US-backed pro-"democracy" protests have raged destructively for months, such an event would not have been unleashed hundreds of miles away in Wuhan.
Never let a good crisis go to waste?
The real-life coronavirus is much less virulent than the pandemic described in Lock Step, with an official death toll of "just" 427 and a global infection toll of "only" 20,629 as of February 4, and the dead were mostly over 60 with preexisting medical issues. Economies worldwide are nevertheless in free-fall just like the simulation predicted. This drop is fueled by scare-stories percolating in establishment media and alt-media alike (the name of an actual article in ZeroHedge by a Rabobank analyst: "What if we are on the brink of an exponential increase in coronavirus cases?") while videos of dubious origin appearing to show horrific scenes from within China keep the virus viral on social media. Adding to the fear is coronavirus' lengthy incubation period, up to two weeks in which a carrier could be blithely spreading it to everyone they meet, creating a constant threat of a "boom" in cases just around the corner.
China's economy, of course, is being hit the worst, and the epidemic's timing could not have been more disastrous from Beijing's point of view, coming on the eve of the Lunar New Year holiday. At this time, some 400 million Chinese travel around the country to see family, mostly in the high-speed bullet trains that have their hub in – you guessed it – Wuhan. With much of this travel having occurred before the city was quarantined, cases are likely in their incubation phase all over the country, making today's numbers look like a rounding error.
Correspondingly, the situation couldn't be better for the American ruling class: a pandemic that targets Asians striking China just when it's most vulnerable is a powerful blow to the rising superpower. And in case anyone still believes the circumstances of the virus' ascendance are merely an extended string of coincidences, Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross took that plausible deniability and stomped on it last month, unable to stop himself from gushing that coronavirus would "help to accelerate the return of jobs to North America" in an interview with Fox News. Prefacing his victory lap by saying he didn't "want to talk about a victory lap over a very unfortunate, very malignant disease," he pointed out that businesses will be forced to take China's inexplicable susceptibility to deadly viruses into account when reviewing their supply chains. Unmentioned, but adding to the perfect economic storm, was Trump's signature on the USMCA trade agreement, supposed to bring in an extra 1.2 percentage points in GDP growth.
"On top of all the other things, you had SARS, you had the African Swine virus there, now you have this," Ross said, hammering home the point by linking coronavirus to other suspect plagues. Just as many scientists concluded SARS was a manmade bioweapon, many – scientists and statesmen as well as alternative media – have raised the alarm about coronavirus. Good luck finding any of their statements on Google, however. Facebook, Youtube and Twitter have been hard at work removing coronavirus "rumors," and Google has memory-holed hundreds of search results regarding Chinese accusations of biowarfare. Even on platforms that don't censor on government orders, the baseless claims from Shoham and other disinfo artists about Chinese biowarfare have muscled any comments from Chinese officials out of the way. Even the former Malaysian PM's comments are obscured behind a Farsi language barrier – his original comments inexplicably missing from English-language media and reprinted only by Iran's IRIB News Agency (this author can no longer even find the tweet that alerted her to those comments, but would like to thank that person).
Coronavirus is not the doomsday epidemic it is being portrayed as by irresponsible media actors. But as the Lock Step scenario makes clear, one does not need massive die-off or victims exploding in geysers of blood in the streets to achieve desired social goals. It's possible the novel coronavirus epidemic is a "dry run," a test of both China's readiness to handle an outbreak and of the international community's reaction to such a plague. It's even possible, though unlikely, that the epidemic was a mistake – that the virus escaped from a lab, likely American, by accident.
It's also possible the plague may suddenly become more virulent. Certainly the media buzz the first week of February is that coronavirus is close to being declared a "pandemic" by the WHO, which will necessitate the type of control measures hinted at in Lock Step and described more exhaustively in Event 201. From "limited internet shutdowns" and "enforcement actions against fake news" to government bailouts of "core" industries, mandatory vaccinations, property seizures, and other police-state provisions laid out in the Model State Emergency Health Powers Acts passed in many US states in the paranoid aftermath of 9/11, the totalitarian nature of these provisions is limited only by the imagination of the regime carrying them out. Once events proceed to that stage, it is extremely difficult to reverse them. We would be wise not to allow this to happen.
65,000 officially infected. 1490 official deaths. 10,000 serious. Death rate in China is probably around 10-20%.
1 death out of 252 infected in Japan. 80 yr. old woman. So low mortality in Japan so far (flu level), which is promising. I think Japan is the country to watch. At 252 infected, this will start to be a strain on their medical department. Most are quarantined on the cruise ship.
Singapore just added 11 cases. Seems like they are entering exponential growth. Not good.
US added 2 cases, up to 15. One additional quarantine victim, which is "good" news. No info on the other, but listed as California.
Quote from: Graham on February 09, 2020, 04:25:59 PM
The downside is you have to suffer the aspersions of armchair philosophers. Let's just say it's a very good thing you're not a public health official.
The same public health officials who gave you the standard American diet and told you saturated animal fat and dietary cholesterol cause heart disease? The same ones who pushed pasteurised dairy and banned sales of raw milk? The same ones who gave you the carcinogenic birth control pill? The same ones who put a cell-destroying, IQ-lowering toxic byproduct of the aluminium industry into your drinkign water? The same ones who allowed mercury in vaccines without any safety studies ever beign conducted on it? Holy moly.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 09, 2020, 06:35:52 AM
QuoteWhat? If you want to focus on Wuhan alone, it has a population of 11 million. The numbers you give result in 1 death every 33k people versus 1 death every 22k people respectively. I'm not "off" by anything
Wuhan states 5 million left the city before CNY, hence I am using 6 million for the population as the deaths are predominantly occuring well into CNY (and after). Given the extreme quarantine and numerous lockdowns across the nation, I assume few if any of the 5 million have returned. And so in the last month Wuhan had 500 deaths over 6 million people, or 1 in 12k.
The US flu season so far has killed 10-12k, but flu season stretches back to October. It peaks somewhere around now so I'll ballpark that 5k occured in the past month across 330 mil Americans, or 1 in 66k.
And of course the stats in America are far more reliable than those in China - the China figure is almost certainly too low. US flu season is peaking now whereas we have no reason to believe the coronavirus is anywhere near its peak.
The overseas data over the next 5 weeks will be the most telling. If overseas looks good then its some local issue (air pollution, toxins, bad hospitals, whatever). But if we start seeing overseas deaths start to trickle in as we saw in early January, then its just beginning.
Yes, you halve and double figures as it suits you, and there's still not an "order of magnitude" difference.
This video is worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01L-SktgzXc
Singapore and Hong Kong both have patients in critical condition from Covid19. I am unsure about Singapore but at least with HK at minimum one is merely a local (hence evidence against it being Hubei-specific). One elderly Japanese lady has also passed from Covid19 pneumonia, again with no apparent connection to Hubei either. Both Singapore and HK have top-notch medical systems, presumably Japan as well, so these are places to watch. The interview in Caixin with the Wuhan doctor also shows that they are not jokers but rather very serious professionals.
Also a paper from Los Alamos estimates the R0 to be around 6, which if true means it is an unstoppable pandemic barring a miracle or antiviral / vaccine. The paper also estimates that with all of the extreme interventions in China it has only lowered the R0 to 3, which is still an unstoppable pandemic.
Again I note that the concern facing the world is not just the virus but the supply chain disruption that is related to the virus. I recommend this article noting what the former US CDC head said about this:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3050349/coronavirus-us-dependence-china-pharmaceutical-ingredients-will
QuoteUS drug companies rely heavily on China as a supplier of raw materials that go into the production of active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs), said Scott Gottlieb, former head of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
"In many cases China is the sole source of that material," Gottlieb, who led the FDA for two years under Trump, said during a hearing on Capitol Hill.
The key ingredient to make many Western medicines are solely produced in China and now there is no more supply. Again I warn anyone whom relies upon medicine to immediately purchase many months' worth of inventory. This stuff will be sold out soon and then you are in the hands of the Chinese as to when new supply will be available.
This also goes for many other things, such as cleaners, which are sold-out in much of Asia now.
Not that there is any personal action which can be taken on this but I worry about the oxygen supply for hospitals. Wuhan is apparently running low on oxygen supplies. Where do local US hospitals source their oxygen from, how secure is that supply chain, how much can be produced? How many ICU beds are there, how many nurses to staff them during a pandemic? Again there is nothing any of us individually can do about that specific matter but it is more reason to be excessively prudent in trying to avoid Covid19 so as to avoid the crush in the hospital like what is currently going on in Wuhan.
In more positive news, here is an interesting explanation relating sleep and the immune system (as we all already know sleep is very important, but here is a little more incentive to be serious about sleeping well).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqZYEgREuZ8
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlbM6VVkVZM
QuoteYes, you halve and double figures as it suits you, and there's still not an "order of magnitude" difference.
KR,
And you can use improper population figures as it suits you and also totally ignore the reality that the initial setup of a flu epidemic and this novel epidemic are totally different. The flu is always everywhere, it just flares up and settles down with the seasons, kind of like a rising tide. But this novel pandemic started in one location and now needs time to spread out everywhere (within the city and then across the world). The number of people seeding these epidemics are completely different and that makes early stage comparison inane.
China has the flu just like every country has the flu. In Tianjin, literally a thousand km away from Wuhan, they just strictly quarantined over 10,000 because one person in the community tested positive for Covid19. Why do you suppose the Chinese are doing this across their entire country and resulting in tens to hundreds of billions of dollars of losses, plus raising the anger of a billion citizens, if they do not perceive this to be a dire threat to their country?
I am as skeptical of modern Western medicine as you are. Everything you said in your post about raw milk and what not probably 99% of us agree with.
Side questions Davis, out of curiosity what TLM in HK do you all attend? What are the priests and trads there thinking of/doing about this crisis? (and Deo gracias your wife will be receiving baptism)
Official numbers: 67,000 cases. 1526 dead. 11,000 listed as serious.
On the good side, no new cases in USA. No new deaths in Japan, Singapore, or the US. Still cautiously optimistic that if you keep your health system intact, we are looking at a flu type scenario outside of China, especially if you are healthy.
In China is a different story where it looks like the death rate will be 10-20%. Again the economic threat might be the big deal.
Egypt got its first case. There are a lot of Chinese in Africa. If it takes off there, it will be catastrophes.
Chris,
There are two TLMs in Hong Kong. The one I attend is a community that rents space from a Salesian parish and the other is a monthly SSPX with priests that fly in from the Philippines.
https://tridentine.catholic.org.hk/
The community has been around for almost 20 years now and they are a dedicated and pious group of people. Mostly all local Hong Kongers but also some mainlanders and Europeans / Americans. Excellent choir and acolytes. There are no priests specifically for our community but somehow the head always is able to arrange for there to be a priest. Sometimes we have visiting FSSP come through - the most excellent confessors.
The former chaplain whom was instrumental in its founding is a 92 year old mainland Chinese priest whom escaped the mainland during wars of the early 20th century. During his train ride south he had nothing but a rosary which he was praying and a priest spotted him and brought him into Hong Kong. He still offers Mass with the energy of a much younger man.
The HK TLM community heads helped guide the newly formed (~5 years) Una Voce in Taiwan. We visited them once and they are a tiny group of very pious people offering Mass currently on a monthly basis. That community head said that the Taiwanese bishop is very supportive of the Latin Mass and is assigning priests to learn Latin and organizing classes for chant to be taught, as well as mandating weekly TLMs in Taipei and maybe Taichung. I am hopeful that there will be good growth there.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 14, 2020, 07:49:50 PM
Chris,
There are two TLMs in Hong Kong. The one I attend is a community that rents space from a Salesian parish and the other is a monthly SSPX with priests that fly in from the Philippines.
https://tridentine.catholic.org.hk/
The community has been around for almost 20 years now and they are a dedicated and pious group of people. Mostly all local Hong Kongers but also some mainlanders and Europeans / Americans. Excellent choir and acolytes. There are no priests specifically for our community but somehow the head always is able to arrange for there to be a priest. Sometimes we have visiting FSSP come through - the most excellent confessors.
The former chaplain whom was instrumental in its founding is a 92 year old mainland Chinese priest whom escaped the mainland during wars of the early 20th century. During his train ride south he had nothing but a rosary which he was praying and a priest spotted him and brought him into Hong Kong. He still offers Mass with the energy of a much younger man.
The HK TLM community heads helped guide the newly formed (~5 years) Una Voce in Taiwan. We visited them once and they are a tiny group of very pious people offering Mass currently on a monthly basis. That community head said that the Taiwanese bishop is very supportive of the Latin Mass and is assigning priests to learn Latin and organizing classes for chant to be taught, as well as mandating weekly TLMs in Taipei and maybe Taichung. I am hopeful that there will be good growth there.
Good to hear the TLM is still going there. Yeah it seems Cardinal Zen's influence back in the day helped keep it going. It's interesting that the underground priests in the mainland for what a decade or two didn't say the NO since they didn't have the new missal yet, and the Patriotic Church ironically resisted it at first since it was coming from western Rome. It's also interesting that there are trads in the underground including priests saying the TLM I hear, some served in secret by SSPX priests on mission there. And then there is this testimony of a mainland Chinese woman to the truth of traditional Catholicism, who as a consequence suffered greatly:
https://angeluspress.org/products/joy-in-suffering
A few questions that some of you may be able to answer with authority:
1) Is it true that this is affecting Chinese men of military age only?
2) Did the first case of death recently happen in Europe?
Thanks!
Media report that up to 60% of world population may become infected if this is not contained. I think this is part of population control. Did you guys take a look at the article I posted 2 days ago and a video. A paper published in 2010 "Scenarios for the Future of Technology and International Development" depicts a pandemic to be used for 'top-down government control' and China is mentioned. look it up. It is available in pdf format on google.
1. False. First death in Japan was an 80 yr. old woman.
2. Old Chinese tourist in France just died. He also was 80.
The 50+ cases in HK are ages 25+, mostly 50+ and a fair mix of men / women. So far those under 20 seem generally unaffected but its too early to bet on that.
Edit: The epidemic is breaking out in Singapore and it is perpetually 80+ degrees there, so don't bank on a change of seasons having any affect. Its always summer in Singapore and its doing them no good.
Western governments already discussing throwing in the towel on quarantine as many top researchers are realizing its uncontainable. They cannot stop the deaths from it but they can avoid having the global supply chain blow up and all the deaths that would result from that.
I strongly hope that the deadly reinfection hypothesis turns out to be false.
Quote from: Heinrich on February 15, 2020, 10:34:10 AM
A few questions that some of you may be able to answer with authority:
1) Is it true that this is affecting Chinese men of military age only?
2) Did the first case of death recently happen in Europe?
Thanks!
2) Yes an 80 year old Chinese tourist in France.
Chinese tourist dies of coronavirus in France, first death in Europe: minister
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-france-idUSKBN2090B0
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 14, 2020, 07:14:25 AM
Quote from: Graham on February 09, 2020, 04:25:59 PM
The downside is you have to suffer the aspersions of armchair philosophers. Let's just say it's a very good thing you're not a public health official.
The same public health officials who gave you the standard American diet and told you saturated animal fat and dietary cholesterol cause heart disease? The same ones who pushed pasteurised dairy and banned sales of raw milk? The same ones who gave you the carcinogenic birth control pill? The same ones who put a cell-destroying, IQ-lowering toxic byproduct of the aluminium industry into your drinkign water? The same ones who allowed mercury in vaccines without any safety studies ever beign conducted on it? Holy moly.
Caring about public health and caring about Being Right Online (tm) are very different things, and I daresay many of them are more genuinely concerned about the former than you are, big guy
70,000 infected. 1669 dead.
Japan really going up in cases. Now at 400.
Death rate outside of China still like the flu. Japan is definitely the one to watch to gage this. Still not catastrophic.
Taiwan just reported first death, a taxi driver in his 60s with Hep B, diabetes. No overseas travel. Passed away on the day he was diagnosed (today).
RIP to all whom have passed.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 16, 2020, 05:54:23 AM
Taiwan just reported first death, a taxi driver in his 60s with Hep B, diabetes.
Is this supposed to be a joke? No way a man in in 60s screwed up enough to have diabetes and the symptoms of a "hepatitis" diagnosis could have died from anything but "coronavirus".
Quote from: Graham on February 15, 2020, 10:32:56 PM
Quote
The same public health officials who gave you the standard American diet and told you saturated animal fat and dietary cholesterol cause heart disease? The same ones who pushed pasteurised dairy and banned sales of raw milk? The same ones who gave you the carcinogenic birth control pill? The same ones who put a cell-destroying, IQ-lowering toxic byproduct of the aluminium industry into your drinkign water? The same ones who allowed mercury in vaccines without any safety studies ever beign conducted on it? Holy moly.
Caring about public health and caring about Being Right Online (tm) are very different things, and I daresay many of them are more genuinely concerned about the former than you are, big guy
"Public health officials" have a demonstrable record of being utterly wrong and destroying public health and lives. I have no reason to trust a single one of them or to believe anything they have to say. Quite the opposite, in fact. I have every reason to do the opposite of what they want of me, and every reason to stay well away from doctors when it comes to diagnosing and treating illness. I though better of mentioning in that post how the world is filled with gullible schmucks who worship authority, but not anymore.
Quote"Public health officials" have a demonstrable record of being utterly wrong and destroying public health and lives. I have no reason to trust a single one of them or to believe anything they have to say. Quite the opposite, in fact. I have every reason to do the opposite of what they want of me, and every reason to stay well away from doctors when it comes to diagnosing and treating illness. I though better of mentioning in that post how the world is filled with gullible schmucks who worship authority, but not anymore.
Probably 99% of the people on this forum agree with your opinion about modern "health" care. And I'd bet 99% have not started stocking yet. Most of us are taking a wait-and-see stance.
While we don't "worship authority" and accept these stats, we will be watching deaths. If you get a bunch of people dropping dead in Japan, that's something we'll pay attention to. If 2 weeks from now the death rate in Japan is on the order of typical flu, then we'll start tuning it down, maybe checking weekly. It's a prudent strategy. Right now, no one knows the facts.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 16, 2020, 12:05:01 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 16, 2020, 05:54:23 AM
Taiwan just reported first death, a taxi driver in his 60s with Hep B, diabetes.
Is this supposed to be a joke? No way a man in in 60s screwed up enough to have diabetes and the symptoms of a "hepatitis" diagnosis could have died from anything but "coronavirus".
Perhaps the Taiwanese doctors are too dumb and merely assumed that sudden ARDS from pneumonia was caused by the pneumonia inducing virus that is plaguing their nearby cousins on the mainland.
What do you suppose caused 42 people to suffer an agonizing death from sudden onset pneumonia in Amoy Gardens 15 years ago?
The following is from Rod Dreher's blog at The American Conservative:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/was-covid19-bioengineered-by-china/
-----
One more thing from the report:
QuoteEarly research found that 2019-nCoV targets the ACE2 receptor, which is found in East Asians at roughly five-times the rate of other global populations, indicating that the Wuhan Strain 2019-nCoV was likely developed as part of a gain-of-function defensive project possibly linked to immunotherapy or vaccinations – never meant to leave the lab, but meant to serve as a Red Team to fight back against, not as an offensive weapon since the virus is likely wired to be much more virulent among Asian populations. Further support for this is the fact that the Wuhan BSL-4 virology lab was already actively looking into the risks posed from bat coronaviruses, and actively researching coronavirus treatments – by definition both of these projects would require live virulent strains of coronavirus.
This would indicate that the virus will not spread outside of East Asian populations at nearly the same rate. If this proves to be the case, then Chinese carelessness in the lab will have sickened and killed an untold number of their own people (and Japanese, Taiwanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc.), and deeply damaged the Chinese economy. Because globalism has connected us all tightly to China, when China gets the coronavirus, we all get sick, if only economically. The good news (relatively speaking) is that if this thing can be contained before it mutates, the non-East Asian world may pretty much dodge the bullet. The bad news for the non-East Asian world is that nobody is free from the economic effects of a plague-related Chinese economic collapse.
Jacob,
There are other recent studies out saying there is no difference between ACE2 between the races. Separately, large study of 1,000+ Chinese Covid19 cases showed essentially no link between smoking and the disease. It is still all very unknown at this moment of course.
Personally I put little value in medical studies.
KR,
When examining Western medicine it is beneficial to separate it into two parts: acute and chronic. Western medicine excels in treating acute problems such as knife wounds, reattaching limbs, bacterial infections and to a lesser degree sustaining the body while it fights a viral infection. Where it fails horribly is in chronic disease such as heart disease, diabetes, and such. Western medicine maybe can keep a specific heart attack (acute) from causing death, but it fails at fixing why so many heart attacks occur (chronic).
It is very likely the case that the many chronic problems plaguing the West are diet related (all the things you mentioned). Here the West has very little credibility. But in acute areas Western medicine does rightfully have lots of credibility.
Hmm...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC0gww2yznI
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 16, 2020, 06:30:16 PM
KR,
When examining Western medicine it is beneficial to separate it into two parts: acute and chronic. Western medicine excels in treating acute problems such as knife wounds, reattaching limbs, bacterial infections and to a lesser degree sustaining the body while it fights a viral infection. Where it fails horribly is in chronic disease such as heart disease, diabetes, and such. Western medicine maybe can keep a specific heart attack (acute) from causing death, but it fails at fixing why so many heart attacks occur (chronic).
It is very likely the case that the many chronic problems plaguing the West are diet related (all the things you mentioned). Here the West has very little credibility. But in acute areas Western medicine does rightfully have lots of credibility.
This is mostly true, but it has never been proved that "viruses" exist as foreign quasi-organisms that infect humans and are the causal agents of these purported diseases. This is why the courts in Germany were
forced to concede in Dr. Stefan Lanka's case that the scientific papers purported to prove the existence of the measles virus failed to do so. Moreover, it has never been shown that the genetic material associated with these "viruses" is not produced by the human body itself in relation to a response to disease, that is, "viruses" are not a cause but an effect of disease.
I quote from
Viral Pathogenesis: From Basics to Systems Biology, Third Edition:
QuoteVirus virulence and host susceptibility are interdependent properties that are determined by the virus–host combination and that together result in the manifestations of infection. A virus that is virulent in one setting may be innocuous in another, and a host may be susceptible or resistant depending upon age, route of infection, or properties of the virus.
As I said before, any particular virus is neither
necessary nor
sufficient for the appearance of the symptoms associated with its "disease", which makes this an absolute joke from the perspective of the logic of causation, but of course wherever one finds both he virus and the "disease", the inference is made. 40 years on and no HIV cure or vaccine. Some say there's no money in cures; but there's no money in diseases being caused by diet, lifestyle and poisoning and not foreign invaders that can be targeted by the vaccines and drugs produced and sold by multi-billion-dollar pharmaceutical corporations.
Kary Mullis himself denies that PCR can be used to detect causation of diseases by viruses. But why listen to the guy who invented the technique?
Take the discoverer of so-called "prion disease" as an example. How did he determine kuru was being caused by brain cannibalism? He fed diseased brains to chimps. That didn't work. He then injected them. That didn't work either. So he drilled holes in their brains and stuck the diseased brain matter in there, and hey presto, the animals got sick. He received a Nobel Prize for his work. He was also a gay paedophile.
BSE was caused by neurotoxins in organophosphate pestidicdes used only in the UK and Switzerland, the same countries in which BSE appeared.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MheeiX2w8JU[/yt]
I would bet my bottom dollar that if we'd been running PCR tests for "coronavirus" in patients in America, Europe, Japan, etc. years ago we would have seen positives in the same frequency we are seeing today. I'd also bet that this epidemic, if there even is one, never extends beyond the bounds of certain parts of China, because that is the locus of whatever is really causing the problem. We'll see.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 17, 2020, 12:07:27 PM
I would bet my bottom dollar that if we'd been running PCR tests for "coronavirus" in patients in America, Europe, Japan, etc. years ago we would have seen positives in the same frequency we are seeing today. I'd also bet that this epidemic, if there even is one, never extends beyond the bounds of certain parts of China, because that is the locus of whatever is really causing the problem. We'll see.
It could very well be 5G. 5G is known to cause flue like symptoms. It can be used as a weapon. It just happened that few weeks before the outbreak 5G was officially running in Wuhan province
Quote from: martin88nyc on February 17, 2020, 01:00:08 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 17, 2020, 12:07:27 PM
I would bet my bottom dollar that if we'd been running PCR tests for "coronavirus" in patients in America, Europe, Japan, etc. years ago we would have seen positives in the same frequency we are seeing today. I'd also bet that this epidemic, if there even is one, never extends beyond the bounds of certain parts of China, because that is the locus of whatever is really causing the problem. We'll see.
It could very well be 5G. 5G is known to cause flue like symptoms. It can be used as a weapon. It just happened that few weeks before the outbreak 5G was officially running in Wuhan province
Frequency induced phenomena should not be transmittable to other people.
Quote from: Gardener on February 17, 2020, 01:19:15 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on February 17, 2020, 01:00:08 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 17, 2020, 12:07:27 PM
I would bet my bottom dollar that if we'd been running PCR tests for "coronavirus" in patients in America, Europe, Japan, etc. years ago we would have seen positives in the same frequency we are seeing today. I'd also bet that this epidemic, if there even is one, never extends beyond the bounds of certain parts of China, because that is the locus of whatever is really causing the problem. We'll see.
It could very well be 5G. 5G is known to cause flue like symptoms. It can be used as a weapon. It just happened that few weeks before the outbreak 5G was officially running in Wuhan province
Frequency induced phenomena should not be transmittable to other people.
Yes but it lowers you immune system. I didn;t deny the fact that there is a virus
Quote from: Gardener on February 17, 2020, 01:19:15 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on February 17, 2020, 01:00:08 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 17, 2020, 12:07:27 PM
I would bet my bottom dollar that if we'd been running PCR tests for "coronavirus" in patients in America, Europe, Japan, etc. years ago we would have seen positives in the same frequency we are seeing today. I'd also bet that this epidemic, if there even is one, never extends beyond the bounds of certain parts of China, because that is the locus of whatever is really causing the problem. We'll see.
It could very well be 5G. 5G is known to cause flue like symptoms. It can be used as a weapon. It just happened that few weeks before the outbreak 5G was officially running in Wuhan province
Frequency induced phenomena should not be transmittable to other people.
Except it hasn't been shown that the "coronavirus" is transmittable from person to person.
KR,
Assuming that the germ theory is incorrect obviously has dramatic implications for what is to be done regarding the matter at hands. As with millions of other topics and theories in the world of which I simply am not currently interested, so too with the theory that viruses do not cause disease. I have come across it before but have not put effort into it yet. My disinterest is not an indicator of its credibility or lack thereof, but merely that I simply am not motivated at the moment to research it. Call me lazy.
For the present I will assume that viruses cause disease and take action to protect my family based upon that. Given that you and I in general agree upon nutrition then it seems like you'd have no further action for me to take on this matter other than advise that I need not stockpile food or n95 masks.
If the killer pneumonia never moves past China when all indicators under this theory are that it will, maybe that will ignite my interest.
None of this though touches upon the supply chain disruption we all face unless China restarts its factories. An amusing indicator is that yesterday a HK gang robbed a truck driver by knifepoint to steal about $200 of toilet paper. HK markets have been sold out of all paper hygiene products for over a week now and you can see what oddities come from that. The triads used to rob jewelry stores for $100k of watches, now they rob for $100 of toilet paper.
73,000 official cases. 1900 dead. 11,000 serious. (rounding a little). Soon we'll be at 100,000 / 2,000. 99% in China.
No new cases in USA except cases evacuated from Japan and put in quarantine.
I have to retract, I don't think Japan is as important. The vast bulk of cases are on the cruise ship. And I believe a lot of them are Chinese.
It looks like Singapore is the best country to watch. 77 cases, 4 serious. No deaths.
Reports from US quarantine centers are also something to keep an eye out for.
Cautiously optimistic.
https://this.kiji.is/602066054273565793
From the Japanese government on Feb 17th discussing the cruise, of the 450 confirmed cases thus far, 20 are in severe condition. Of those 20, 11 are Japanese aged 60-80. I think the cruise offers the best data as in one month we'll know of those 3,700 whom were all exposed to the virus, how many ended up in the ICU. If it remains at 20 or so then it's pretty good overall.
Edit: This is tracking Singapore's severe case rate as well (~4%). The problem is not today but if the virus becomes widespread as it is in Wuhan where the city is widely ill and suddenly 4% of the ill need a ventilator and 4L of oxygen per minute.
I now have proper home protection thanks to a fellow Okie Trad, ready for the Coronavirus zombies to come crashing through our door. My right shoulder is now sore, the tinnitus in my left ear spiked this week after practice (despite protection), and my wallet is a little lighter. But it feels great to protect me and mine, come what may.
Is CDC hiding something?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=9dw_68tV6c0
Quote from: martin88nyc on February 17, 2020, 11:30:35 PM
Is CDC hiding something?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=9dw_68tV6c0
Rhetorical question, right?
Quote from: Heinrich on February 18, 2020, 10:25:40 AM
Quote from: martin88nyc on February 17, 2020, 11:30:35 PM
Is CDC hiding something?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=9dw_68tV6c0
Rhetorical question, right?
correct
Official stats: 75,000 infected. 2,000 dead. 12,000 serious. If you use a 20 day lag between infection and death, the mortality in China is around 17%. Again, I think their health system has collapsed.
Outside of China, nothing new, which is good. No new cases reported in Singapore. Cautiously optimistic with positive outlook. Hopefully they keep the Chinese on lock down and this burns itself out.
Second person has passed in HK (RIP). 70 years old with kidney problems.
Using James' 20 day lag, back in January 30th there were 10 HK cases, which again puts this at 20%, and HK's health system is barely affected given that there are about 10 total in ICU today.
I am ballparking overall mortality rate at about 1%. Overall severe case rate at about 5% - leading to about 1/5 of those in the hospital eventually passing. Very early but this is my operating assumption until I have better information to update these estimates.
The cruise is about the worst place to be located and so once it is all said and done, having a good idea of how many caught the virus will be important. About 1/6 of people get the flu every year. So far there are 500 cases on a 3,700 person cruise (and climbing every day), so in the worst of conditions we will get a feel for how infectious it is (and how many can avoid it even in the worst condition).
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 18, 2020, 08:47:04 PM
Second person has passed in HK (RIP). 70 years old with kidney problems.
Funny how that works with these viruses, eh? It's always weak, unhealthy, sickly people who die. Healthy people don't die from them. And the healthiest people don't even get sick from them but can still test positive.
Slow viruses like hepatitis B and HIV are the best. One can have them for decades without getting sick. But hey, put people who test positive for them on toxic medication that is guaranteed to make one ill and eventually kill. It's come so far now that gays take anti-HIV medication Truvada before even testing positive.
QuoteTenofovir disoproxil is a nucleotide analog reverse-transcriptase inhibitor (NtRTI).[15] It selectively inhibits viral reverse transcriptase, a crucial enzyme in retroviruses such as human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), while showing limited inhibition of human enzymes, such as DNA polymerases ?, ?, and mitochondrial DNA polymerase ?.[8][15] In vivo tenofovir disoproxil fumarate is converted to tenofovir, an acyclic analog of deoxyadenosine 5'-monophosphate (d-AMP). Tenofovir lacks a hydroxyl group in the position corresponding to the 3' carbon of the d-AMP, preventing the formation of the 5? to 3? phosphodiester linkage essential for DNA chain elongation.[15] Once incorporated into a growing DNA strand, tenofovir causes premature termination of DNA transcription, preventing viral replication.[15]
That sounds like a good idea.
QuoteLong term use of tenofovir disoproxil is associated with nephrotoxicity and bone loss. Presentation of nephrotoxicity can appear as Fanconi syndrome, acute kidney injury, or decline of glomerular filtration rate (GFR).[13] Discontinuation of tenofovir disoproxil can potentially lead to reversal of renal impairment. Nephrotoxicity may be due to proximal tubules accumulation of Tenofovir disoproxil leading to elevated serum concentrations.[11]
No way incorporating an NrRTI into growing DNA strands to cause premature termination of DNA transcription could lead to anything bad down the road. No way reverse transcription is a natural and necessary part of our genetics.
Gee, I wonder what actually caused the symptoms of polio.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBqksDzsOpI[/yt]
Gubmint and muh doctor says it be aaalright, so let's spray our kids with a toxic chemical that kills smalls organisms.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPkewVOZ-Is[/yt]
If you think something can kill insects but is harmless to human cells, YOU'RE BRAIN DEAD.
Facts on this will only come out by accident. Both international big business and the Chicoms have a common interest in this going away.
Not much change. 76,000 official cases, 2100 deaths. Perhaps the crazy quarantine in China is starting to work.
Japan, Singapore, and South Korea showing notable gains in number of cases in a percentage basis.
On the good side we're seeing recoveries reported. Japan 20 out of 84, Singapore 34 out of 84, Australia showing 10 out of 15 recovered.
Note Diamond Princess is now its own category and the numbers have been subtracted from Japan. Japan and Singapore still the countries to watch. I'm now mildly optimistic. Keep your medical system intact, and this is the flu.
No change in the USA.
Quote from: james03 on February 19, 2020, 06:25:30 PM
Not much change. 76,000 official cases, 2100 deaths. Perhaps the crazy quarantine in China is starting to work.
Japan, Singapore, and South Korea showing notable gains in number of cases in a percentage basis.
On the good side we're seeing recoveries reported. Japan 20 out of 84, Singapore 34 out of 84, Australia showing 10 out of 15 recovered.
Note Diamond Princess is now its own category and the numbers have been subtracted from Japan. Japan and Singapore still the countries to watch. I'm now mildly optimistic. Keep your medical system intact, and this is the flu.
No change in the USA.
I was going to leave for Japan in 3 days in order to run in the Tokyo Marathon on March 1st. But Marathon was canceled so I am not going to go.
Will adjust my training and run in London at end of April.
Two elderly with unstated underlying conditions from the Diamond Princess have passed away.
The Chinese governnent again changed definitions back to requiring positive tests to be classified as Covid19. Don't bother reading into the Chinese data. Meanwhile cases outside of China are growing exponentially as is to be expected.
I suspect China will declare mission accomplished soon and ignore the epidemic as if it were not happening. Kinda like the Americans during the Spanish Flu.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 19, 2020, 10:04:43 PM
Two elderly with unstated underlying conditions from the Diamond Princess have passed away.
From said unstated underlying conditions.
QuoteMeanwhile cases outside of China are growing exponentially as is to be expected.
As is to be expected frome xponentially increasing coverage, paranoia and testing.
From Diamond Princess, currently 27 in serious condition and 2 more whom have passed.
Applying my estimates that 1/6 of total population becomes infected, of which 5% require severe medical assistance and 1% perish, leads me to guess that the approximate outcome from the Diamond Princess disaster will be:
3,700 total people
620 infected
31 serious condition (ICU, forced air, etc)
6 will pass away
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 20, 2020, 06:46:15 AM
From Diamond Princess, currently 27 in serious condition and 2 more whom have passed.
Applying my estimates that 1/6 of total population becomes infected, of which 5% require severe medical assistance and 1% perish, leads me to guess that the approximate outcome from the Diamond Princess disaster will be:
3,700 total people
620 infected
31 serious condition (ICU, forced air, etc)
6 will pass away
It is very difficult to say anything about mortality rate yet, since:
1) Majority cases are still ongoing, it is not known whether they will live or die.
2) Many mild cases are probably not reported, which might bring the mortality rate down.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 20, 2020, 06:46:15 AM
the approximate outcome from the Diamond Princess disaster will be:
620 infected
Already passed that number:
https://apnews.com/4030470d394aec0c982acb55744b1648
"The ministry also announced 13 more cases on the ship, bringing the total to 634, by far the largest number in one location outside mainland China."
Quote from: Arvinger on February 20, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
2) Many mild cases are probably not reported, which might bring the mortality rate down.
Never mind "mild cases", if you tested
everyone, sick or healthy, with these PCR tests the majority of positives would likely not even be ill. Understand? Example: the polio virus "causes", that is one finds the virus together with the crippling disease, in somewhere between 0.1 to 0.5 percent of "infections". :cheeseheadbeer: :cheesehead: It's ludicrous.
Modern day testing is very often useless just like stool testing
The virus has broken out in Italian villages with many in critical condition and one has already passed. Same seems to be going on in Iran with two passed. South Korea is having a major outbreak at some church and the city Daegu is increasingly being locked down. Photos of panic buying at the market clearing shelves.
Again I warn you all, if you wait till its clear as day that its here, it's already too late, cause everyone will slam the market at the same time as people always do when a crisis becomes common knowledge. You need to be proactive in be early. Americans still oddly think they are immune to this so you still have time to buy before its Black Friday everyday till the cows come home. Here in HK there still is no rice / noodles / cleaners / toilet paper on the shelves. Once the panic sets it remains for a long time.
As for the quality of Western systems:
The US only has working test kits in 3 states (CDC sent out faulty kits to the other 47), woops.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/only-three-us-states-can-test-for-coronavirus-public-lab-group-2020-2%3famp
But that hardly matters anyways, because the CDC only will test you anyways if you have had contact within 14 days with someone who has traveled to China. If not then no test, too bad so sad. Just sweep it under the rug, there is no epidemic here.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/identify-assess-flowchart.html
We also see that the US put 14 known infected people on a crowded 12 hour flight back to the US. All because the political optics of taking grandma off the plane would look too bad. You can count on politics always trumping reality in the West.
Also on that flight headline photo was of two women wearing n95 masks. One had not pressed the nose clip at all (hence it was useless) and the other had it upside down (even more useless). These people had been under the care of Japanese health officials and to a lesser extent Western ones for over 14 days and still don't know how to wear a mask such as to make it air tight to protect against an air borne pathogen that is almost guaranteed go pass through the AC system. I wonder how many elderly on that long flight were infected by those 14 infected the politicians stuck on the plane.
I also note the big heroic rescue missions only came a day or two before the quarantine was to end anyways. In other words, all those countries didnt want those people back anyways without first going through a quarantine. Don't listen to the words but watch the actions.
And let us never forget the photos weeks ago of British bus drivers wearing their regular livery, no masks, nothing, while seated next to full Hazmat health officials, bussing people to quarantine. I am sure Mr. Smith there will not be infected and spread it to countless others, the virus bounced right off his stiff upper lip.
If nothing else, the supply chain shock is real and it will get worse when Korea and Japan shut down.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hBPn0sofHw[/yt]
Source - Coronavirus: Leading China expert details the reality
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/coronavirus-leading-china-expert-details-the-reality
Quote from: mikemac on February 21, 2020, 08:20:44 PM
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hBPn0sofHw[/yt]
Source - Coronavirus: Leading China expert details the reality
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/coronavirus-leading-china-expert-details-the-reality
Fearmongering utter nonsense.
Why would anyone wear a mask for the sake of something no science has ever demonstrated to be contagious or causative of diseases? Go ahead, someone prove me wrong. It's not even possible to truly isolate a virus from tissue samples and from "diseased" cells, so explain to me how it's in principle possible to demonstrate even in artificial laboratory conditions. Wow, you can make somebody sick by injecting diseased tissue into him? Who would ever have thought.
Toilet paper? Shower. And you shouldn't be eating rice and noodle poison anyway.
Well its not the right thread for it but such is the nature of conversations: an honest question for our keto friends, what explains that the places with highest life expectancy live eat and breathe noodles and rice?
1) Hong Kong
2) Japan
3) Macau
4) Switzerland
5) Singapore
Of the top five, four base breakfast lunch and dinner off of the simple question: rice or noodles? And number 6 on the list is Italy which loves pasta so much they'd drink it if they could.
I also understand that many feel excellent while on keto diet so I am not doubting that some benefit from it.
South Korea going exponential and Japan also climbing. SK at 433 and Japan at 120. We can assume SK's medical system is already overwhelmed. So we should get some good data now on lethality.
Total number around 78,000, and total deaths now 2400. Note the vast majority of these is China and their numbers aren't real.
US up to 35, but that is due to bringing in people from the Princess Cruise ship not local infection. They are in quarantine.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 22, 2020, 06:00:09 AM
Well its not the right thread for it but such is the nature of conversations: an honest question for our keto friends, what explains that the places with highest life expectancy live eat and breathe noodles and rice?
I'm not about keto, though keto can help some people clear up some problems. The issue is nutrition on the one hand and cutting out deleterious substances on the other, and good nutrition is impossible, absolutely impossible, without consuming saturated animal fats. Grains are mostly empty calories that contain antinutrients and cause digestive issues and leaky gut.
Quote
1) Hong Kong
2) Japan
3) Macau
4) Switzerland
5) Singapore
Of the top five, four base breakfast lunch and dinner off of the simple question: rice or noodles? And number 6 on the list is Italy which loves pasta so much they'd drink it if they could.
I'm not going to guess what drives life expectancy at birth. What they have in common though, aside from high wealth and functioning social healthcare services, is they all consume a lot of saturated animal fat and have sources of vitamin K2 in their diet. Fish, often raw, is consumed daily in Japan, fermented soy is a source of K2, pork and lard are ubiquitous, and they aren't averse to organ meats. In Switzerland it's similar, with fermented meats and cheese, sources of K2, being something they have in common with the Italians, French and Spaniards.
But Okinawans are the longest lived in Japan, and they use low GI sweet potato as their carb staple over grains.
High glycemic diet is the great killer of modern man.
Fed by the modern food industry and the modern hybrid version of wheat (created in the 60's).
QuoteThe difference between these so-called ancient grains and the typical "modern wheat" found in your average grocery store is that most grains today come from a variety of wheat created in the 1960's through cross-breeding and genetic manipulation.
The goal: to produce a higher-yielding and lower cost crop.
In addition to this genetic tampering, the bleaching, stripping, and processing that modern wheat is subjected to during bread-making results in a very unnatural product.
It's not "GMO" per say, but it's much different than the grains our ancestors were eating.
Yeah, dwarf wheat. A couple of years ago I posted that I remember the wheat fields being a lot taller than what they are now. There was one guy from the prairies that was certain that was not true. But there are lots of old photos online showing the height of the wheat fields from back then.
Its now causing a panic in Italy. Nothing here in Ireland yet.
Anybody know anything about Iodine, it does kill bacteria, fungal and some viruses. Would a soaked mask in iodine be better protection if out on the streets?
The factories haven't opened up yet in China and I was saying to my husband that if they don't reopen by end of feb, we will see the effects in early summer. What are other peoples predictions on timeline of effects?
I have been adding extras to our grocery shopping such as toothpaste, soaps and then pastas, couscous, soups etc.
The one worry I have is my dad is an epileptic, so he needs his medication. I am going to try to get the Dr to allow possibly 6 months supply in one collection but this will be difficult.
Before Kreut gives out to me, I am not panicking but I am a planner and I have a long range lens, big into 'having a plan b for a what if?' I have stores of rice and flour for the past two years that should see us out for 6 months. The worst that can happen if this settles is that I have wasted approx. €200 worth of food.
The problem with all so-called natural anti-microbial products people consume is that, whether they be garlic, colloidal silver, etc., if they are effective they will be just as destructive of your beneficial, or rather vital, bacteria, if not your own cells. It's been proved now that antibiotics damage cells. How do you think they work? They trigger oxidative stress that is deadly to bacteria. But they do the same in your cells.
Speaking based upon what I see the common man eat in HK, its a bunch of fried egg noodles (the same type found in instant noodles) and rice with fried Brazilian pork. Or McDonalds, which is always swamped. From the tins outside of the tea houses the food is cooked in vegetable oil, not lard. They do eat some organ meats, much less than mainlanders but far more than Americans. Tons of instant noodles being bought at the markets (its like instant noodles are the only thing a HKer can "cook"l. But they do eat more green leaf vegetables than the typical Westerner (always cooked).
I think the Weston A Price nutritional advice is largely right, but I also note that at least HKers seem to have a lousy diet and yet are living the longest (and seemingly in decent health while aging).
It is not reasonable to label rice and noodles as "poison" when 5 of the top 6 live off of those. Even using that term loosely does not fit. We have theories about X Y Z, and we may even have personal health improvements by following our theories, but that does not make them correct. Life is enormously complex and it seems that despite our interesting and plausible theories, rice & noodles are apparently not killing off the longest aged people despite their copious consumption of it.
The ancient grains theory is also plausible and interesting but again the aforementioned places have been eating modern grains for decades and we don't see the type of crippling impact on their health that one would expect were they to be as ruinous as is often described.
None of this is to say the theories are not partially right (I suspect they are), but I think there is far more complexity to health.
Diaduit,
I would be very scared about inhaling that much iodine. I would definitely work asap on obtaining that medicine. China is attempting to restart their factories but the migrant workers are too scared / its not possible to return to the cities to work. I cannot properly speculate on this outcome. I am like you in that I always prefer to be prepared for bad outcomes.
Iranian lawmaker claims 50+ dead. British doctor contacted associates in Iran and anecdotally the claim was made that it is especially virulent (deadly) there. Mutation? Bad medical care? Bad data?
South Korea is shutting down some factories. This will likely continue and in other countries when it becomes eminently clear the threat is here.
Quote
I think the Weston A Price nutritional advice is largely right, but I also note that at least HKers seem to have a lousy diet and yet are living the longest
Then again, life expectancy at birth is high based upon data for generations that didn't have quite that diet. Also, all highly "developed" nations have very similar life expectancy at birth, in the lower 80s. At most those at the top have a couple of years advantage. That's due to slightly lower mortality rates throughout life (violent crime, for instance, is extremely low in East Asia). You don't know what the distribution of lifespans within these populations looks like and what the diet is of people who are skewing it higher. And you're operating under a fallacy of not considering what the
longest lived groups of people in these populations (very different from life expectancy at birth with which you are conflating it) are eating (an example is comparing Okinawa with the rest of Japan, but even there it's too general). Reaching 80 years in a safespace society with modern medicine to keep you alive is not an achievement; people like that should be living well past 100. Granted, this doesn't evidence the contention, but what's shaving 20-40 years off their lives?
Quote(and seemingly in decent health while aging).
Decent health? A country that also happens to have
the lowest fertility rate in the world. East Asians also have the lowest testosterone among races in a world in which generational decline is already out of control. I don't think this points to health. At least not full health.
QuoteIt is not reasonable to label rice and noodles as "poison" when 5 of the top 6 live off of those.
Yes it is, because that's what they are, and if the five out of six who stuff themselves with that crap every day dropped it, it'd be one step toward living far past 80. I know someone personally, for example, who stuffed herself with rice and noodles and suffered from autoimmune issues and terrible skin allergies that have now come under control after dropping these foods in favour of animal products.
I mean, a bit here and there is not a problem. Like alcohol. Or certain nuts and legumes. Hell, cashews are objectively
toxic and could kill a man in large-enough quantities. But a handful here and there is not going to do much unless you're sensitive.
QuoteEven using that term loosely does not fit. We have theories about X Y Z, and we may even have personal health improvements by following our theories, but that does not make them correct. Life is enormously complex and it seems that despite our interesting and plausible theories, rice & noodles are apparently not killing off the longest aged people despite their copious consumption of it.
Again operating under a fallacy that dying in your 70s means you haven't slowly poisoned yourself, or that slowly turning into a zombie in your 60s and 70s and clinging to life and a semblance of "health" through medical treatment and copious use of narcotics (just look at old people in developed nations, stuffed full of some combination of pain killers, antidepressants, etc.) means you're actually healthy.
QuoteThe ancient grains theory is also plausible and interesting but again the aforementioned places have been eating modern grains for decades and we don't see the type of crippling impact on their health that one would expect were they to be as ruinous as is often described.
Yes, we do. Human health is in the toilet. But we've reduced wars and violence and developed methods for saving lives and keeping people alive longer. So average Joe couch potato who is infertile and can't run a mile without being out of breath can expect to croak from heart disease or cancer in his 70s. You're just conflating higher life expectancy at birth with good health.
My "conflation" comes from my anecdotal evidence having lived decades in America and over a decade in Asia. The elderly Asians are, in general, far healthier than the American elderly. The Great Wall is shockingly & dangerously steep and it has floods of Chinese geezers marching up and down it like it were a mere stroll in the park. Your average American elderly probably a full decade their junior could not even get past a few steps.
If anyone has data on it I'd be most intrigued to know it, but I suspect the longest lived group of people are in the religious orders.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 24, 2020, 08:10:23 AM
My "conflation" comes from my anecdotal evidence having lived decades in America and over a decade in Asia. The elderly Asians are, in general, far healthier than the American elderly. The Great Wall is shockingly & dangerously steep and it has floods of Chinese geezers marching up and down it like it were a mere stroll in the park. Your average American elderly probably a full decade their junior could not even get past a few steps.
And they have an
even worse diet, full of sugars and plant oils and deficient in just about every micronutrient.
Looks like we have a winner with South Korea. We should get real data now. Their medical system is overwhelmed. Japan, Singapore, and Italy are also taking off.
SK: 833 with 8 deaths.
Italy: 229 with 7 deaths.
Japan: 159 with 1 death.
Singapore: 90 with 0 deaths.
Note deaths probably lag a good 10 days. I'd say South Korea and Italy are out of control unless they've set up quarantine camps. Japan looking sketchy.
Expect supply chain problems at the least.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 22, 2020, 06:00:09 AM
Well its not the right thread for it but such is the nature of conversations: an honest question for our keto friends, what explains that the places with highest life expectancy live eat and breathe noodles and rice?
1) Hong Kong
2) Japan
3) Macau
4) Switzerland
5) Singapore
Of the top five, four base breakfast lunch and dinner off of the simple question: rice or noodles? And number 6 on the list is Italy which loves pasta so much they'd drink it if they could.
I also understand that many feel excellent while on keto diet so I am not doubting that some benefit from it.
Keto isn't so much an either/or nutritional philosophy. It's more both/and. Its use is advocated for the obese and metabolically challenged, but most keto experts recognize that a high carb diet is also healthy when it's based on lower glycemic index sources of carbs (ex: rice vs flour) and whole foods. Those countries that live well off of noodles probably do so despite the noodles and other empty carbs, because they haven't screwed up their metabolisms to the degree fake food countries like the US have.
Well this just takes the cake. In the land in which the pot forever calls the kettle black, the US CDC states it has only tested 426 people so far nation wide. Meanwhile China has tested 200,000+, South Korea 28,000+, but America the great beacon of openness and responsibile governance has only tested 426. But let that stop no one from claiming that China is covering things up while ignoring that America is whistling past the graveyard pretending everything is rock solid in the U S A. Trump also has informed us all that now is a great time to buy stocks. Most responsible.
The US has about 250k cases of pneumonia each year. For all its boisterous talk about China cover ups, one would expect it to be testing all cases of pneumonia on US soil. But no, not at all, they're doing nothing but pretend its not here. Its the Spanish Flu coverup all over again.
Again, its the hypocrisy that is intolerable. It's always the West wagging its finger at everyone else and ignoring the gargantuan beams in its own eyes.
Quotethey haven't screwed up their metabolisms to the degree fake food countries like the US have.
Antibiotics wrecked my digestive track and its been years of suffering since. [yes I've been on the various diets and supplements for years with degrees of success]
I suspect it is some complex interaction between (in no particular order):
- losing traditional diet (need more eggs, animal fat, fermented foods, traditional food prep)
- nutrient dead soil
- fake foods dreamed up in laboratories by mad scientists
- antibiotics
- sugar
- pasteurized everything
- chemicals in all foods and house products
- office work over manual labor
- loss of spiritual life
- Western medical drugs
Carbs are a confusing one. I definitely put on weight when I go carb heavy, but I also look at the Asians who are carb heavy yet thin (I myself am thin too, so for me "putting on weight" does not mean much). But its clear that obese people shed weight easily when carbs are eliminated. Traditional diets are carb heavy and bread obviously is very important to us Catholics.
I've heard that if the more honestly reported rate of Italian cases were extrapolated, it might be possible to guess at at least an approximation of the rate, which is likely far higher than the Red Chinese authorities claim.
Supposedly a Chinese news service flashed up 24,589 deaths which was screen captured, before the rate reverted to something official, dated 5th February:
24,589 deaths? (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7971401/Have-real-coronavirus-death-figures-leaked-Chinese-conglomerate-lists-death-toll-24-589.html)
To Do: practice bug out.
I'm ignoring Chinese data going forward. We now can monitor Italy, South Korea, and Japan. One thing we can confirm is that this crap is pretty darn contagious. Rough guess factoring in some lag time, the death rate appears to be around 5%, with the bulk being old people or out-of-shape people. If you haven't done so, get eating healthy and make sure you get zinc and selenium in your vitamin stack.
Death rate data will soon cement. Nothing showing up in the US yet in the wild. Basically all cases are at quarantine centers. However I have no doubt that this will come to the U.S.
Another thing supply chain shortages will show up soon. I worry about car manufacturers and electronic components. Blame the Dems for protecting NAFTA for 2 years. If we could have repealed NAFTA 2 years ago, we'd have a much more solid North America economic zone. Hopefully a lot of manufacturers saw NAFTA going away and started sourcing locally in anticipation. But supply chain is still a problem.
One thing we can do.
A couple of weeks old, but at the 6:00 mark it gets interesting.
https://youtu.be/qqZYEgREuZ8
Quote from: james03 on February 25, 2020, 09:13:58 PM
One thing we can confirm is that this crap is pretty darn contagious.
There's ZERO evidence of that, just as there's ZERO evidence the materials that trigger positive PCR results for "coronavirus" are not naturally occurring in humans and already found in the population at large.
The more people one tests the more positives are returned at an increasing rate.Therefore the virus is rapidly spreading. Medical logic. Like Italian cases jumped from 3 to 165 in a few days. Because of high contagion. Not because they tested more people. This is such asinine reasoning it boggles the mind. And of course they never normally test for this virus; but when they do, hey presto, it's a pandemic.
It's like HIV is sub-Saharan Africa. In Botswana, 25% of adults supposedly have this terminal disease causing retrovirus because everyone's being tested. 25%. You have to be an idiot to believe this in light of alleged heterosexual transmission rates derived from studies done in the West. There's nothing wrong with them, but let's put them on anti-retrovirals to slowly kill them. You know, those Africans are havign too many children, so let's give them an hysterical fear of an imaginary sexually transmitted infection so they start having less sex and using condoms.
To all the purveyors of medical dogma: it's easy to prove your claim and prove me wrong: just show me one example of a pure,
isolated virus put into a healthy organism and giving it a disease.
News from India on the Coronavirus. There were quite a few confirmed cases of Coronavirus followed by a happy full recovery.
https://www.devdiscourse.com/article/national/889673-kerala-has-defeated-coronavirus-very-well-health-minister-shailaja
"Kerala Health Minister KK Shailaja on Tuesday said the State government has defeated coronavirus very well. "I think Kerala has defeated coronavirus very well. We have taken a systematic step," she said during a press conference here.
She said that the government has fixed the quarantine period of 28 days and those who are completing the quarantine period are being released. She said that a few people are still in quarantine.
"We are monitoring the people who are affected with cough and fever. Coronavirus is still spreading in many countries. If someone comes from any country with an infection, we have the same threat," she said. "We have decided to continue with precautions. We have prepared an action plan to monitor and examine all types of symptoms," she said. (ANI)
QuoteThere's ZERO evidence of that
A South Korean goes to Wuhan. Comes back and ends up with pneumonia and fever. Many people in contact with this dude also come down with pneumonia and fever.
You might not want to call that conclusive proof, but that's evidence.
First case in Ireland. Its from a small town about under 2 hours drive from me. My friend is originally from a nearby village and her sisters kids go to a particular school that was on high alert due to 6th years returning from a school trip in that region in Italy. Now I'm not sure yet if the first case is to do with the school but its very small town so likelihood that it is connected.
Here is the bit that bugs the crap out of me.
Nearest town with nearest major hospital is Mullingar. Over the weekend my friends friend who is training as a nurse was on duty in the A+E, patient presents himself as maybe having virus as he has returned from a destination that has the virus. Firstly, stay at home ya fecking eejit and call an ambulance but noooooo, has to go to the emergency room (probably at his gp before that) then the feckin staff walked him through a+e to another section and did some obs. Decided no test needed to be done and sent him home. Now maybe he didn't have the virus but in all fairness we are relying on humans to have some sort of cop on and trained professionals to act professionally....humans are doomed relying on this.
Now my home town is 40 mins drive from this and a lot of the population would use that hospital so absolutely its coming to where I am from and where my 82 year old dad lives.
I have thought of a way to get supplies of his epileptic medicine so hopefully it works out for us.
UUUUUGGHHHH , keep praying folks.
oh by the way, I gave up browsing screens unnecessarily, emails and here is all I am allowing myself to look at. So this is where I am getting my updates.
Edit to add,
A local wholesale food supply was packed out today, I was supposed to go today and couldn't. People are beginning to stock pile.
Now the news is it's come from Northern Ireland and not still confirmed in that town I spoke about.
My husband sent this to me (and even mentioned prepping, as in start storing food :tinfoil:)
The coronavirus has already forced millions to work from home in China, and as the outbreak goes global, remote work could become a vital public health strategy, Bryan Walsh writes in his Axios Future newsletter, which returns today.
• Why it matters: Businesses should be ready to "replace in-person meetings with video or telephone conferences and can increase teleworking options," Dr. Nancy Messonnier, spokesperson for the CDC's coronavirus response, told reporters.
What's happening: The videoconferencing company Zoom has been one of the few stocks to rise even as fears about the coronavirus pull down the market.
• In China, Alibaba's collaboration platform DingTalk became the most-downloaded free iOS app in the country in early February.
• In Hong Kong, where classes are suspended until at least March 2, schools are experimenting with creating an interactive educational experience for homebound students using Zoom, according to the South China Morning Post.
Quote from: diaduit on February 27, 2020, 10:02:59 AM
First case in Ireland. Its from a small town about under 2 hours drive from me. My friend is originally from a nearby village and her sisters kids go to a particular school that was on high alert due to 6th years returning from a school trip in that region in Italy. Now I'm not sure yet if the first case is to do with the school but its very small town so likelihood that it is connected.
Here is the bit that bugs the crap out of me.
Nearest town with nearest major hospital is Mullingar. Over the weekend my friends friend who is training as a nurse was on duty in the A+E, patient presents himself as maybe having virus as he has returned from a destination that has the virus. Firstly, stay at home ya fecking eejit and call an ambulance but noooooo, has to go to the emergency room (probably at his gp before that) then the feckin staff walked him through a+e to another section and did some obs. Decided no test needed to be done and sent him home. Now maybe he didn't have the virus but in all fairness we are relying on humans to have some sort of cop on and trained professionals to act professionally....humans are doomed relying on this.
Now my home town is 40 mins drive from this and a lot of the population would use that hospital so absolutely its coming to where I am from and where my 82 year old dad lives.
I have thought of a way to get supplies of his epileptic medicine so hopefully it works out for us.
UUUUUGGHHHH , keep praying folks.
oh by the way, I gave up browsing screens unnecessarily, emails and here is all I am allowing myself to look at. So this is where I am getting my updates.
Edit to add,
A local wholesale food supply was packed out today, I was supposed to go today and couldn't. People are beginning to stock pile.
Now the news is it's come from Northern Ireland and not still confirmed in that town I spoke about.
Diaduit,
I read that you were asking about placing something inside of the masks.....
Well, I read somewhere else that we should place a high quality
SALT inside of the masks. In addition,
we should all be doing salt gargles several times a day (preventive measure)
In the past, if I felt that I was coming down with something, I would do this, and I avoided getting sick.
Here is a link describing the benefits of salt gargles. I do not think it could hurt to do as a preventive measure.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salt water mouth rinse is an amazing remedy for this problem primarily because it helps fight the infection
causing fungus and heals it quickly.
Make sure that you never mix more than half a teaspoon of salt in the water because that could end up altering
your ion balance of the body. Never drink the salt water after you are done gargling, rather, spit it out and rinse
your mouth with fresh water once you are finished with the salt water gargle
If you weren't aware, a sore throat is the aftermath of severe bacterial and fungal interaction in your throat.
While the antibiotics can definitely help get rid of it for good, you can opt for salt water gargle to get temporary relief from the pain and irritation.
The salt water helps keep the bacteria at bay by perishing them by exposing them to an inhabitable environment
and the water content helps in hydrating the body and ensuring to keep the scratchiness of a sore throat away.
For best results for curing sore throat, try gargling with salt water at least twice or thrice a day
In a study conducted in Japan, it was established that a regular salt water gargle done at least twice or three times daily helps in reducing the probability of upper respiratory tract infection by a percentage of 40.
It is believed that the salt water gargle helps in getting rid of the infection by perishing the building bacteria in
the respiratory tract (R). Make sure that you are spitting the water out after swirling it around your mouth because the lack of it often tends to increase the intensity of the infection.
Now that we are more or less well versed with the HOWs and WHYs related to salt water gargle, let us delve into the salt water gargle benefits for health.
Oral Thrush
Tonsillitis
Chest Congestion
Cough
Canker Sores
Bad Breath
Tooth Ache
Sore Throat
Strep Throat
Bleeding Gums and Swollen Gums
Gingivitis
Mucus
Upper Respiratory Tract Infection
--------------------------------------------------
What To Do?
Mix half teaspoon of salt to a glass of water
Stir to dissolve it completely
Sip some of the salt water and rinse your mouth with it
Spit it out and don't swallow the water
Repeat this process till you run out of the water completely
http://www.healthspectra.com/salt-water-gargle/
I hope this helps. :)
South Korea out of control, heading to 2,000 infected. Italy and Japan also climbing and Italy's health system is now probably overwhelmed. Death rate in Italy currently at 3%, but remember the lag. Italy closing in on 700 cases.
Iran is troubling with a death rate over 10%, before factoring in the lag. Don't trust their numbers. Maybe they are bumping off political opponents.
South Korea and Italy are the places to watch for data.
Nothing much to report in US. One troubling case of a woman with no known contacts coming down with the disease. No deaths in US so far.
Twitter showing panic buying at Costco in Hawaii now. I give it within one week for panic buying and empty shelves to be generally a nationwide phenomenon. If you want to avoid the brawls, the guns, the muggings, then you should go tomorrow to get your non-perishables and cleaners, paper products. This is likely to be the last chance before it becomes common knowledge that there is a crisis around and the first response when in a crisis is to rush to the market. This is how panics happen, the signs are so copious that this is imminent. If you thought the insanity of Black Friday fighting over Cabbage Patch Kids was bad, wait till you see people fighting over food.
France cases doubled overnight because they began actually testing people who have pneumonia. Once the US CDC switches from their criminally negligent requirement that one must have had contact with a person from mainland China for a test to be administered, and they switch to the sensible "let's test anyone with mysterious pneumonia" then the cases will "explode" (but in reality they were there weeks ago, it is just the US government was too stupid to test for it).
The Fed won't be able to QE its way out of this.
Got my wholesale supply of strong flour, pasta, dried soups, olive oil, porridge, peanut butter, sugar.
To get yet, jam sugar for when the berries come in during the summer.
Hydrated lime to mix with water to store eggs for upto a year.
Over the weekend , get some chickens , our hens are old now and have stopped laying.
Davis, can you give us an idea of what day to day involves. Also when supplies hit the shelves in supermarkets, how do ye hear about it, hardly an orderly queue forms?
What are the most surprising elements of survival have you come across? Are people getting paid for work when not in the factory, can you access the funds in the bank?
Quote from: diaduit on February 28, 2020, 04:40:18 AM
Got my wholesale supply of strong flour, pasta, dried soups, olive oil, porridge, peanut butter, sugar.
To get yet, jam sugar for when the berries come in during the summer.
Hydrated lime to mix with water to store eggs for upto a year.
Over the weekend , get some chickens , our hens are old now and have stopped laying.
Davis, can you give us an idea of what day to day involves. Also when supplies hit the shelves in supermarkets, how do ye hear about it, hardly an orderly queue forms?
What are the most surprising elements of survival have you come across? Are people getting paid for work when not in the factory, can you access the funds in the bank?
Diaduit, could you explain the technique for using hydrated lime and water to preserve eggs?
Here's a good book to read while in isolation.
Download it now before the Internet goes down. ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Plague
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21970
I found this link about preserving eggs using limewater...
http://restoringmayberry.blogspot.com/2014/09/limewater-eggs.html (http://restoringmayberry.blogspot.com/2014/09/limewater-eggs.html)
Very interesting.
QuoteDavis, can you give us an idea of what day to day involves. Also when supplies hit the shelves in supermarkets, how do ye hear about it, hardly an orderly queue forms?
What are the most surprising elements of survival have you come across? Are people getting paid for work when not in the factory, can you access the funds in the bank?
I go to the market once a week now to minimize my trips there and tomorrow is my weekly trip. Last Saturday was the first day I saw rice, paper products or your disinfectant type cleaners on shelves. There had been rice and paper products in prior weeks but long queues of people formed hours in advance of the delivery so it was all immediately sold out. HKers are the kings of queuing, I think this is like a hobby of theirs, so it is always very peaceful. How it will be elsewhere depends on local conditions.
Here are South Koreans queuing for masks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7-KN-52GxU
Looks pretty orderly to me. Here in contrast is Black Friday around America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlPVAUulKZE
So as I said, it depends on local conditions.
For our family, personally, I stocked up about 1-2 weeks before it became common knowledge that the city was facing a crisis, so I peacefully bought our supplies while all was well in stock. My weekly trips now are just to replenish what was eaten while maintaining our savings.
During the past month the city has more or less operated but with obvious changes. There are fewer people out (but still lots, given how densely populated HK is). Gov't offices are either closed or on restricted hours. At times banks have been closed but I think many are generally operating now. Biggest change is that schools have been closed since mid January all the way until April 20th at earliest now, so that can be a big burden for many people. We homeschool so for us it is irrelevant. Financial markets are still operating so money is still fully accessible - I keep my eye on financial events so if I sense imminent danger I will definitely mention it. HK essentially closed its borders so tourism plummeted a staggering 98% y/o/y.
The empty-shelf phenomenon is a function of two things: the panic buying and the ability of the store to restock itself. The longer the shelves stay empty the more panic there is which only further works to keep the shelves empty anytime something is restocked. If the supply chain is functioning reasonably well then eventually the stores can outpace the panic after a few weeks. But if the supply chain disruption continues to grow (which is possible, but not necessarily going to happen), then we can see much bigger problems coming ahead. I'm keeping my eye on the supply chain issue cause I think that is potentially much bigger of a problem than the virus itself (this is not a money issue, it is an issue of people eating, an issue of people clubbing each other over the head to fight over a bag of rice). The governments have exacerbated the issue by being poorly prepared and in various places at various times quarantining Chinese cargo ship sailors when they come to deliver giant cargo ships filled with supplies. Doing stupid things like that will be very disastrous if they continue punishing those whom try to supply you.
As for work it depends on the nature of your work as to how affected, or completely unaffected you will be. Tourism and entertainment type industries are getting crushed. Restaurants, shops, hotels, attractions, airlines, cruise ships, etc, all those workers might have to go unpaid for some time until demand returns. Others like accountants are unlikely to be affected. It all depends on the occupation.
I think it sounds like you are exceptionally well prepared so I think your family will be great.
Quote from: Lynne on February 28, 2020, 06:35:56 AM
I found this link about preserving eggs using limewater...
http://restoringmayberry.blogspot.com/2014/09/limewater-eggs.html (http://restoringmayberry.blogspot.com/2014/09/limewater-eggs.html)
Very interesting.
That's it alright Lynne, a bag in my local hardware 3 kg is €6.40 and that should do quite a few containers.
Davis, thank you for that as I just want to have an idea of what the future
MAY hold. I just keep remembering that the locals all laughed at Noah!!!
There is no way in hell that the queues here would remain orderly (to be honest I think I would be the worst, hate queueing :) ), what we do have is 'contacts'. Because this country is so small we know a guy who knows a guy yaddda yadddda yaddda. I have some gold coins that I will use to barter for medicines and I have a contact in this area. I know a dairy farmer and me and a friend who has 12 in her family, each one being as resourceful as the next are buddying up for networks.
If my local town shuts down and I can't get into my father, I'm pretty sure I can use the river networks to either get him out or get supplies to him.
Last question Davis, IS QUARENTINE WORKING? IF it is not, then lets crank open the factories again anyway because by the looks of it, its been too late in shutting down borders, travelling etc.
Quote from: Lynne on February 28, 2020, 06:35:56 AM
I found this link about preserving eggs using limewater...
http://restoringmayberry.blogspot.com/2014/09/limewater-eggs.html (http://restoringmayberry.blogspot.com/2014/09/limewater-eggs.html)
Very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/user/jastownsendandson
THere is at least one video about older methods of preserving eggs, if I remember correctly one using lime. Lots of other interesting stuff, too
Usually a worrier, I am not willing to surrender to panic yet. No mask, no panic buying. I'm just trying to preserve my own health (making sure to stay well-rested, eat prudently and nutritiously -- it's Lent anyway -- and being more conscious of hand-washing, etc.). I.m.o., standing in a long line of strangers is likely to expand the exposure.
Not sure if this was posted yet. It's been up on the NYT for a while now. I ignore the obvious political slant against the President and just focus on the quarantine aspect of the article.
To Take On the Coronavirus, Go Medieval on It:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/28/sunday-review/coronavirus-quarantine.html?action=click&module=moreIn&pgtype=Article®ion=Footer&action=click&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=Article®ion=Footer&contentCollection=Opinion
Some insight into the economic impact in China:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-situation-in-china-is-even-worse-than-you-think-says-this-analyst-with-a-history-of-accurate-calls-2020-02-28?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo
Chinese oil imports down 88%. Economic supply chain will definitely get smacked.
South Korea out of control. Blew through 2000, now at 2300. Italy over 800 with calculated death rate at 5% (factoring in lag).
Japan also climbing. Deaths in South Korea, Italy, and Japan. USA 3 new cases. Germany and France may soon overtake USA, climbing fast.
I'm going to DEFCON 2 this weekend and stocking up. I still think if you are healthy, you are looking at a week or 2 in bed if you get this. My main concern is the economy.
Also DOW taking huge hits.
QuoteIS QUARANTINE WORKING?
Yes and no. It works to slow down the progression of the virus, but given that it seems to be more contagious than the normal cold or flu, it currently seems to be unavoidable in the long run. There are good benefits to slowing down its progress, namely that the greatest physical threat is from a lack of ICU services available due to a sudden crush of critically ill patients. Spacing out the timing of people coming into the ICU will be very important. Also the slower the spread the more time there is for antivirals and / or vaccines to be tested for efficacy. With more time the virus might mutate into a less virulent (deadly) virus more like regular coronaviruses.
But quarantine is not without consequences. As Miriam noted, the impacts in China (and thus for the rest of the world) are enormous. This is not a mere consideration of wealth but rather of people having the ability to purchase basic essentials (food) or for the supply chain to actually supply these essentials. If this got out of control the impacts of a Greatest Depression would far outstrip those of the virus itself.
I think governments will realize that mass quarantine aimed at total prevention of the virus too terribly cripples society. My guess is that they will let what is going to happen happen. If they were smart and organized they would put war-time efforts into strengthening the ICU system. If nothing else, even were the virus to flame out on its own, that money spent would be far more beneficial to society than another trillion of QE.
Edit: Also I'd note that such complete quarantine only works for places easily geographically closed off in entirety (like an island). But doing so also basically ensures you've utterly destroyed your economy and supply chain. Also given the spread of the virus I safely assume literally every country on the planet already has the virus within its borders, it just undetected. So now you are talking about quarantining people within which is far more difficult. What can be done is slowing down human interaction such as closing schools & all entertainment venues, encouraging work from home, etc. This all serves to slow down the progression of the inevitable to buy more time.
https://abc14news.com/2020/02/28/did-1981-dean-koontz-thriller-the-eyes-of-darkness-predict-the-coronavirus-outbreak/
Regarding Davis' Reply 297:
A couple of weeks ago I heard a health official say that the only time in modern history when a quarantine has been instituted for an epidemic was when there was also a vaccine for it.
First death in the U.S. no details. 5 new cases in the U.S. France and Germany blew past the US in case numbers. Spain coming up fast.
South Korea now over 3,000. Calculated mortality rate in SK around 1%. Calculated mortality in Italy at 5-10%.
Japan added 8 cases. Calculated mortality in Japan 5-10%.
Not paying much attention to Iran, but it's raging there.
Based on data from first world countries, we can start determining some stats: The cases are doubling every 4 days. Mortality rate around 5-10% for symptomatic cases.
Basically this is out and won't be contained. Currently it is in the wild in Europe. If you are healthy, you'll probably be ok. If you are out-of-shape, now is the time to cut sugar, sugary drinks, franken-fats, high carbs, and eat clean. Get zinc and selenium, especially bio-available zinc like Cold-eze. Vitamin D3 since the sun is still below the equator. But the main concern is economic. Save what you can while you can. Put most of your pay check in savings and keep your gas tank half full minimum. You might lose your job. Keep a few hundred in cash. Things could get worse if we lose the power grid, natural gas, and refineries.
For those with chronic disease, talk to your doctor about a big prescription. Note basically all baby aspirin is made in China, so if you are taking that for your heart, stock up.
Today I made 35 pancakes using a non stick frying pan with 3inch circular dips.
I used 390g strong flour, 2 teaspoons of baking powder, 1 litre of buttermilk plus ordinary milk to get the texture loose, vanilla and cinnamon flavours, salt and 3 eggs.
My kids eat light so on average each had 4, so the 35 would cover mine and dh plus someone who is a little hungrier.
I have about 30kg of strong flour and I will have to practice the bread baking with yeast to figure out how long my stock would last.
Here's what to expect if you get it:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/i-knew-my-number-was-american-coronavirus-patient-speaks-out (https://www.zerohedge.com/health/i-knew-my-number-was-american-coronavirus-patient-speaks-out)
TL; DR:
Not a killer plague if you are healthy. Probably a week or two of bed rest and a fever. Looks like he was getting magnesium and potassium. So if you need to self treat, get some magnesium glycinate or "chelated" magnesium. For potassium, get potassium chloride or potassium citrate. Readily available from Amazon or health food store. Sugar free gatorade also to keep electrolytes up.
Main worry is the economy. Again, if you are eating crap, now is the time to knock it off and getting healthy.
Quote3inch circular dips.
I used 390g strong flour, 2 teaspoons of baking powder, 1 litre of buttermilk
You can't mix euro units with proper American units. And for the men, what the heck is strong flour?
Proper American units: 3 cups of flour and 1 quart and a splash of buttermilk.
If a person is at risk (>50 and over weight) the most important is to significantly cut your refined carbohydrates (chips, wheat flour products of all types, sugar). Portion control is also important. If you eat to many calories the body will automatically store it as fat which the body uses insulin to do the job.
With these few changes, this reduces your insulin levels and allows your immune system to operate more efficiently.
Quote from: james03 on February 29, 2020, 02:54:12 PM
Quote3inch circular dips.
I used 390g strong flour, 2 teaspoons of baking powder, 1 litre of buttermilk
You can't mix euro units with proper American units. And for the men, what the heck is strong flour?
Proper American units: 3 cups of flour and 1 quart and a splash of buttermilk.
Hhhaaaaaa, I can't get my head around cups , 1 pint = 568ml , I wouldn't have a clue about a 'quart" but it's way more than a splash. :)
Strong flour is all purpose flour....I think, I'm a bad bread Baker but a great sweet baker !!! I'm told all purpose flour is what you use for breads, pizza bases . Self raising/plain for deserts such as queen cakes or apple tarts.
Someone should do a " surviving Corona virus pilgrim style"
Quote from: james03 on February 29, 2020, 01:51:47 PM
Basically this is out and won't be contained. Currently it is in the wild in Europe. If you are healthy, you'll probably be ok. If you are out-of-shape, now is the time to cut sugar, sugary drinks, franken-fats, high carbs, and eat clean. Get zinc and selenium, especially bio-available zinc like Cold-eze. Vitamin D3 since the sun is still below the equator. But the main concern is economic. Save what you can while you can. Put most of your pay check in savings and keep your gas tank half full minimum. You might lose your job. Keep a few hundred in cash. Things could get worse if we lose the power grid, natural gas, and refineries.
For those with chronic disease, talk to your doctor about a big prescription. Note basically all baby aspirin is made in China, so if you are taking that for your heart, stock up.
Selenium is in chia seeds. Chia seeds plus coconut milk/cream makes a nice chia pudding.
QuoteHhhaaaaaa, I can't get my head around cups ,
Just ask a man. We have a lot of experience with pints.
A prediction:
There are thousands of infected hospital staff across America (because the virus has been here for over a month from many infected critical pneumonia patients but the CDC refused to test for them and I doubt isolation procedures were used on many, if any, of them). Tragically many of them will die within a month because hospital staff, in general, are underrested and older. These infected staff also will have spread the virus throughout their hospitals so it is likely already rampant in many American hospitals (increasing the total deaths from this criminally negligent leadership). Many whom die while already as patients in the hospital will go uncounted as this is covered up and only reported by "conspiracy theorists" until 5 years later some study from a "prestigious" university indicates that in 2020 there was a rash of sudden deaths in hospitals from ARDS and that it was probably Covid19.
Also Trump is going to lose. He will rightly be eviscerated for fumbling the world's most obvious pandemic and having at minimum 1.5 month's head lead on it and doing nothing with that gifted opportunity.
I was told here that test kits for this virus is 5k .... staggering.
Our healthcare system is brutally bad. Badly understaffed, limited resources and unbelievably poorly organised. If you heard our minister of health speaking about us being prepared, it would send you to an early grave just listening to the bs. Bottom line for our hospitals is budget budget budget. And that's why our numbers are low.
The guy whom I mentioned in a post before, was in an area in Europe that had the infection and the Drs still decided he didn't fit the criteria for testing.
Good news is that the virus is stable, meaning so far it is not showing signs of mutation, once you get it and recover it doesn't return. Also China seems to be peaking. But here in Europe, the powers that be are not doing what they should.
QuoteHe will rightly be eviscerated for fumbling the world's most obvious pandemic and having at minimum 1.5 month's head lead on it and doing nothing with that gifted opportunity.
Dude, you have to let that hate go.
Tell us exactly how Trump was going to stop this? He shut down the planes from China more than a month ago (and called a racist), and this bought us time. The only possible way to stop this would be to shut down all planes and all cargo ships from every country. Even then, one infected Mexican comes across the border and goes into hiding with the illegal crowd and you end up at the same place.
If anything Trump announcing the repeal of NAFTA 2 years ago and slapping tariffs on China will end up lessening our dependence on the China supply train, which helps. That was just serendipity for the most part, but he had the vision to see our reliance on China as a threat.
The big problem is the economy. Does you car manufacturing plant source mostly from North America, but you need that one micro chip from China? Your car plant shuts down. That will be a big problem.
Strong flour is bread flour. It has a higher protein content than all purpose flour, to help with gluten development in breads.....carry on
Quote1 pint = 568ml , I wouldn't have a clue about a 'quart" but it's way more than a splash. :)
2 cups in a pint; 2 pints to a quart.
So, 1 litre = 1 quart plus a splash ....carry on again
Perpetual Black Friday nationwide has begun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL4bt43dkvg&feature=emb_title
Lining up just to squeeze into a Costco in NYC.
My extended family in Delaware / Maryland emailed saying they ran to Costco on Saturday and loaded their cars up. One even bought a glock.
Friend in Germany says shelves are emptying out where she lives.
This will be a wild week. Don't be surprised if in a couple months Trump takes command control of the economy in a war-time effort.
Edit: Colossal lines in California.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1s0jLys8hw
Another edit:
Empty shelves in Australia.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8060669/Australians-panic-buying-Coles-grocery-stores-coronavirus-fears-grow.html
Just got back from my DEFCON 2 shopping run. Late night Walmart shoppers are divorced men and widowers. We high five as we race down the aisles with zero delay. But back to the story.
No sign of panic shopping. Only thing of note I couldn't find the large bags of beans, so went with the 5 lb. sacks. Bought the last package of baby aspirins (I take them to protect my heart). China is now the sole source for them.
Zicam and Cold-eze in good supply. Tylenol and Advil looked in short supply.
Pro tip. Don't shop tomorrow. It is Food Stamp/SNAP day, so it will be a mad house. Walmart will do a heavy restock Sunday night, so shop Monday night or Tuesday.
Another thing to consider is the "Boost" type protein drinks. I'm going to pick up a case of that. If you are laid out for a week due to the virus, you can keep yourself going by just drinking that.
Anyhow, I can easily survive over a 2 week disruption now. I also made bug out plans with the family. If they have to evac, they will also bring food. So I'm in good shape.
Quote from: MundaCorMeum on February 29, 2020, 07:09:53 PM
Strong flour is bread flour. It has a higher protein content than all purpose flour, to help with gluten development in breads.....carry on
Well then I'll return to plain flour for the pancakes, it seems a bit of a waste using it on pancakes.
Thanks MC :) :)
Is bean with bacon soup and chicken noodle soup a good choice to stock up on ?
I've got COPD and I'm 62. I'm not on oxygen but I have just started to need my inhaler once or twice a day for a couple of weeks now. I'm 50 lbs overweight as well.
I have plenty of water stocked up and plenty of my meds. I have a ton of hand sanitizer. I just need to figure out what food I need to stock up on.
I just deliver food part time and the trouble with that is, I'm handing customers pens to sign credit card receipts and they are handing them back to me. Plus a Respiratory Care Hospital is in our delivery area and they order frequently.
I have decided to tell work tomorrow that I will be working one more shift and that is it until this blows over. I have been avoiding the flu successfully but I have been vaccinated for that and this Coronavirus is a different animal.
I put in for early retirement so I will get my first social security check in April and I have enough cash to survive financially until then and a bit beyond. I just can't see taking a chance by continuing to walk in and out of hospitals and handing pens, paper, and money back and forth.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 29, 2020, 10:44:56 PM
Perpetual Black Friday nationwide has begun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL4bt43dkvg&feature=emb_title
Lining up just to squeeze into a Costco in NYC.
My extended family in Delaware / Maryland emailed saying they ran to Costco on Saturday and loaded their cars up. One even bought a glock.
Friend in Germany says shelves are emptying out where she lives.
This will be a wild week. Don't be surprised if in a couple months Trump takes command control of the economy in a war-time effort.
Edit: Colossal lines in California.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1s0jLys8hw
Another edit:
Empty shelves in Australia.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8060669/Australians-panic-buying-Coles-grocery-stores-coronavirus-fears-grow.html
I'm starting to wonder what your motives may be. You've been on here for weeks fear mongering and attempting to stir up hysteria. Now you start in with the political Trump bashing commentary.
I live in the greater Philadelphia area and see absolutely nothing of the sort regarding panic shopping.
James03 has a long enough posting history showing that he is begging for the Apocalypse but you're starting to sound like some kind of plant or bot.
I only wonder in a few months when people start to ask "whatever happened to coronavirus?" If those who are fear mongering will admit they were once again duped by a controlled experiment to see how easily the masses can be manipulated and controlled.
^
Shrug, what can I say.
I grew up in the US and lived through plenty of bogus scares. Seemingly every morning was some new thing to be scared about. As an adult also had zika, ebola, and probably other things I've long forgotten. Never prepared for any of them, never was scared of any of them.
This one is different for the reasons I've explained numerous times in this thread. It very well may disappear or not be as serious as it appears to be, that is all possible and we can pray it is as so. But there is also a distinction I've drawn between the virus and the supply chain issue. These are related, but separate. Chinese factories are largely closed down now. The supplies from China for many critical things are not being shipped. The world operates on Toyota's just-in-time supply chain (little inventory carried) and so big disruptions cause big problems. Layer on top of this panic buying across the planet and that only exacerbates inventory problems as it demands more of the supply chain precisely when the supply chain is hurt. Add on stock market crashes and you have an interesting situation.
As for being a plant or a bot, I must have been slow playing this a long time, having posted here on Catholic topics for a couple years. But post anything warning Americans that they are at risk or that Trump screwed up and now I'm a bot. Again, what can I say.
Plenty of my 'head in the sky, secular or mass at weddings and funerals only, soap opera watching sheeple friends' are stockpiling and nothing to do with apocalypse.
I'd rather be prepared and if nothing happens, take a year to work through what I bought, than to be frantically wandering from closed supermarket to shops looking for a scrap of food and facing into my childrens hungry eyes when I get home empty handed.
Anyone is welcome to mock me if this passes over easily, and I'm Irish, we're ace at laughing at ourselves so at the least we'll have a good laugh and I'll be eating pancakes till Christmas.
Acolyte
I tried to pm you in relation to COPD that my late mother suffered until she got cancer but yours is switched off so I hope you don't mind me posting here. While my late mother was being treated for cancer she also supplemented naturally to boost her fighting chances.
She took Vitamin B17, Vitamin C high dose and Wheatgrass . B17 could only be purchased through TJ Supply in the US.
She was actually taking this for cancer when after a couple of months we noticed she was no longer out of breath after mild exertions, after nearly a year she was off all inhalers and nebuliser. When she'd be due a surgery or anesthetic for whatever reason, they would measure her oxygen levels which were in the 90's. I know COPD is not curable but honestly for my mother it was the cancer that got her and the COPD was a distant memory (she was told that she would be on an oxygen tank within 5 years of her diagnosis - never happened).
I will stress that this may not happen for you but I can 100% state it happened for my mother so take from it if you want.
Went to Costco in Florence, KY(Greater Cincinnati) yesterday: packed at 11:00 AM. Employee at checkout said it was unusually crowded although there did not seem to be a sense of panic. Certainly more people than normal. Costco and Citi Bank did send out the Rewards coupons this past week. We got enough food to last us a few months past the few months we already have. James' tip on protein drinks was a good one. There are at least four canisters of Orgain Pro Biotic Organic Plant Based Super Clean Delicious California Pure Certified All Natural Oregon Tith Certified Gluten Free Vegan powder in the Heinrich stash. I live rural, but close enough to the road. Everyone has guns and barely any butter. We'd be toast in a three month shut down situation as the Hoosiers here would get hungry and notice the FNG is still plump.* If things on the horizon are looking to get that bad, we'd head westward to our original CO bug out location. Two 4wd vehicles: the jap one would be dogs, supplies, guns, being towed by the Ford monster and gas reserves.
*[yt]https://youtu.be/cHGHcqZ0RdI[/yt]
ETA: https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/meanwhile-costco-brooklyn-hoarding-begins
It's always prudent, if one has the resources, to have canned or other non-perishable foods stocked for a variety of emergencies and situations that could limit mobility or access. Beyond that, I am not joining in the pre-panic of long lines because, as I said earlier, it is my judgment that widening one's public exposure, especially if one lives in an area of known local cases, is more of an immediate risk than not preparing for something hypothetical in the future.
QuoteI've got COPD and I'm 62. I'm not on oxygen but I have just started to need my inhaler once or twice a day for a couple of weeks now. I'm 50 lbs overweight as well.
You are at extreme risk. Main step is to isolate. I think this gets done in May. In the meantime, go full blown atkins and get a good vitamin stack going. D3, Mixed K, Zinc (Cold eze or Zicam), Selenium, and Magnesium Glycinate. Also snack on a mix of fresh veggies and berries. Likely you still have a few weeks until this shows up in your area, so you can really get a lot of benefit by getting healthy TODAY.
Spain just blew past the US. Out of control in SK and Italy. Japan is sketchy. US now over 70. SK will be over 4000 by tomorrow. US may be closing in on 300 by next Sunday.
Death rate still not bad, especially if you are healthy. With Japan, SK, and Europe getting taken out, the economy is toast. China supply problems will start showing impact very soon. Buckle up.
Quote from: diaduit on March 01, 2020, 10:06:26 AM
Acolyte
I tried to pm you in relation to COPD that my late mother suffered until she got cancer but yours is switched off so I hope you don't mind me posting here. While my late mother was being treated for cancer she also supplemented naturally to boost her fighting chances.
She took Vitamin B17, Vitamin C high dose and Wheatgrass . B17 could only be purchased through TJ Supply in the US.
She was actually taking this for cancer when after a couple of months we noticed she was no longer out of breath after mild exertions, after nearly a year she was off all inhalers and nebuliser. When she'd be due a surgery or anesthetic for whatever reason, they would measure her oxygen levels which were in the 90's. I know COPD is not curable but honestly for my mother it was the cancer that got her and the COPD was a distant memory (she was told that she would be on an oxygen tank within 5 years of her diagnosis - never happened).
I will stress that this may not happen for you but I can 100% state it happened for my mother so take from it if you want.
Hi diaduit. The PMs you sent me regarding the Vitamin C high dose, wheatgrass supplement and B17 supplement that your mother took certainly do sound promising to combat or even get rid of COPD. Particularly when she was like this before she started "She got breathless for the littlest exertion like going to the bathroom etc." To this after being on the regime "After about a year of taking Vitamin C high dose, wheatgrass supplement and B17 supplement she and we all noticed she was breathing normal again. Her oxygens levels when measured were like that of a young woman and she came off all inhalers and nebulisers."
Sounds fantastic. But I tried to get the B17 from two different health food stores who both tried to talk me out of it. Apparently you can get cyanide poisoning from B17. B17 is banned in both the US and Canada. I could probably still get it from the TJ Supply source here.
https://www.tjsupply.com/500mg-Laetrile-60-tablets.html
But I don't know whether I should or not. Although you did say that your mother was on "these supplements on and off over her 8 year cancer battle." Sounds really good, but I don't know what to do here.
Diaduit I was planning on sending you this in a PM, but I'm including it here for Acolyte's benefit as well, you know, seeing you couldn't reach him by PM. I hope you don't mind?
Quote from: diaduit on March 01, 2020, 10:06:26 AM
Acolyte
I tried to pm you in relation to COPD that my late mother suffered until she got cancer but yours is switched off so I hope you don't mind me posting here. While my late mother was being treated for cancer she also supplemented naturally to boost her fighting chances.
She took Vitamin B17, Vitamin C high dose and Wheatgrass . B17 could only be purchased through TJ Supply in the US.
She was actually taking this for cancer when after a couple of months we noticed she was no longer out of breath after mild exertions, after nearly a year she was off all inhalers and nebuliser. When she'd be due a surgery or anesthetic for whatever reason, they would measure her oxygen levels which were in the 90's. I know COPD is not curable but honestly for my mother it was the cancer that got her and the COPD was a distant memory (she was told that she would be on an oxygen tank within 5 years of her diagnosis - never happened).
I will stress that this may not happen for you but I can 100% state it happened for my mother so take from it if you want.
Thank you for taking time to reply. I had not heard of B17. I'll read up on it for sure.
Quote from: james03 on March 01, 2020, 03:30:11 PM
QuoteI've got COPD and I'm 62. I'm not on oxygen but I have just started to need my inhaler once or twice a day for a couple of weeks now. I'm 50 lbs overweight as well.
You are at extreme risk. Main step is to isolate. I think this gets done in May. In the meantime, go full blown atkins and get a good vitamin stack going. D3, Mixed K, Zinc (Cold eze or Zicam), Selenium, and Magnesium Glycinate. Also snack on a mix of fresh veggies and berries. Likely you still have a few weeks until this shows up in your area, so you can really get a lot of benefit by getting healthy TODAY.
Do you mean the worst of it will be over in May ?
Speaking of vitamin C, I do keep Vitamin C powder ( not the non-acidic variety) on hand for colds and other illnesses. I'll take a teaspoon mixed in water 2-3 times a day. From my experience, it works very well to relieve the uncomfortable symptoms. In other words I feel better for a few hours.
And I follow the " plenty of rest and plenty of fluids" advice when I'm sick.
One thing I haven't mentioned is that I smoke a pack a day. But now that I'm reaching for my inhaler more often lately, I realize I need to quit now. This Covid-19 virus is quite the motivator for me. I have quit cold turkey for months at a time as well as years at a time since 1989. Longest was '89 to '98. I've been trying to quit for the last three or four months, but for some reason it seems tougher this time around.
I do have about a month supply of patches and I am going to make today my first day of quitting. It will a good day to do so because at 1pm (Monday) I have an appointment with my dentist for an extraction, which includes directions to not smoke. Never had a dry pocket and don't intend to.
Wish me luck.
And please know that I will be praying for everyone on the forum here that we will be spared of this virus at least until a vaccine is available.
My favorite homeopath has written an extensive blog post on handling the flu/coronavirus fears.
https://joettecalabrese.com/blog/ferocious-flu-fears/ (https://joettecalabrese.com/blog/ferocious-flu-fears/)
Quote
Every winter. It's like clockwork. A new flu is discovered, and the press tries to work us into a fevered pitch with concerns of our vulnerability.
Are we vulnerable?
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Should we be prepared?
Why not? Why wouldn't we have the homeopathic medicines we could potentially need — on hand — in case a flu virus strikes our family?
In my opinion, however, there's no current call for ferocious flu fears. I encourage you to keep it all in perspective. Keep lighthearted, yet aware and prepared.
If fear becomes too grand — one becomes anxious and fretful — I have had great success with Ignatia 200C, twice a day until my outlook has returned to sound thinking.
But nothing helps allay fears more than information.
While there is not much definitive information about Coronavirus at this time (because we Western homeopaths have not treated any cases yet), there are some helpful suggestions.
And in my estimation, this one is really no different than any others that homeopaths have treated over the last 250 years.
To that end, I've devoted several Facebook Live events to the subject of the flu: Let's Talk Coronavirus, Coronavirus Update and Flu Remedy.
I also expanded on the conversation in last week's podcast, Flu Got You, Too? There is a lot of information packed into those audio resources. I urge you to listen, as this blog is only a recap!
So, first things first.
Because we all want to avoid getting sick in the first place, I inevitably receive many questions about using homeopathy as protection against catching flu viruses.
As of this writing (February 2020), the press seems overwrought about Coronavirus.
The Ministry of the Central Council for Homeopathy in India released a statement advising Arsenicum album 30 could be used prophylactically — one dose daily for three days, then repeating the regimen monthly.
In fact, in my recent podcast, I mentioned this same medicine as a prophylactic, albeit with a slightly different frequency.
In my experience, when the flu is imminent, the frequency depends on severity.
Arsenicum album 30C or X may be taken either once a day for a week OR maybe twice a day for a week and then back off and take it only once or twice a week from that time forward.
I contacted a medical colleague (and friend) in India who said as of this writing, they have not had a case of Coronavirus yet, so they have not treated it.
Let's keep that in mind.
We must realize these recommendations currently offered for Coronavirus by the Indian Council are somewhat speculative, and not based upon experience with patients.
However, Coronavirus has a long incubation period (10-14 days) and initially presents as a cold.
This slow manifestation does suggest Arsenicum album 30, which is an excellent medicine for extreme colds.
In each epidemic (and there have been plenty of them through the ages), homeopaths around the world try to nail down a "genus epidemicus" — one remedy that works across the global population to address a particular illness.
The predominant medicine currently suggested by some homeopaths for Coronavirus is Gelsemium 30 because of the severe fatigue accompanying this flu.
Again, this is based on theory.
Until we have the opportunity to treat many cases and can observe the efficacy of the medicine time and time again, homeopaths appropriately must make their most educated guesses.
Gelsemium has been the genus epidemicus in other flu epidemics (most famously during the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 where it worked effectively across the globe).
Gelsemium is particularly well-chosen for extreme fatigue, malaise and achy muscles (all of which present in Coronavirus).
So, it's a seemingly good fit. And it has acted for garden variety flus in my practice so far this year.
Some homeopaths have also suggested it as a prophylactic:
· One dose of Gelsemium 30 weekly when an outbreak is geographically distant.
· One dose of Gelsemium 30 daily for seven days if you are close to an outbreak, and then twice a week after that until the threat passes.
Other homeopaths recommend using a nosode (a remedy homeopathically prepared from the virus itself).
However, in my experience, I haven't found nosodes always work the best.
I prefer to employ the simillimum — such as the various homeopathic medicines I'm discussing here.
I'm not saying they're wrong! Nosodes are simply no longer my first choice.
I also know many people experience wonderful results safeguarding against the flu using Oscillococcinum prophylactically.
With all that said, I feel the best protection against the flu is safeguarding your overall health with nutritious, sanitary food, clean water, clean hands, and plenty of rest.
We Westerners seem to take the these for granted and ignore the last one. Humans need rest!
Unfortunately, we've become accustomed to burning the candle at both ends and in the middle. Then we wonder why we are susceptible to illness.
So, my advice is to take care of yourself now, and perhaps you'll avoid the flu later!
But even with the greatest of care, we all get sick from time to time.
I keep a Banerji Protocol in my purse, and I suggest you do as well. It's essential I keep it on hand — immediately ready — for whenever I feel an onset of weakness or that "I'm coming down with something" feeling.
If I feel something is "off," I employ Aconitum napellus 200C mixed with Bryonia 30C, twice a day.
If I know I'm getting slammed with a virus, I use it every few hours. (This Banerji Protocol is also helpful for coughs from flu, as I mentioned in my podcast.)
If I were definitively diagnosed with Coronavirus, I might also consider employing the Banerji Protocol for SARS (a generally similarly presenting virus):
· Lachesis mutus 200C, one dose, every other day (used to combat symptoms in the lungs)
· Chelidonium majus 6X (best in liquid form) + Hepar sulphuris calcareum 6C, every 2 hours (used to address cough and symptoms in lungs and throat)
· Kali muriaticum 3X* mixed with Ferrum phosphoricum 3X twice a day (used to address issues in the blood and grand fatigue)
*In the United States, Kali mur is easier to find in a 6X potency — an acceptable substitution.
But don't assume the worst!
Initially, look at your virus as a cold (consider ColdCalm), until you are proven otherwise. Consider your flu as a "regular" flu (perhaps consider Oscillococcinum or Dr. Dale's ALL FLU, which my sons have successfully employed).
Don't automatically assume you've contracted Coronavirus simply because you've heard so much about it in the media!
I provide a free flu chart to help you determine whether you're dealing with the flu or something else. It also walks you through various choices to consider for use after you determine if you're battling the flu, colds or allergies.
For the flu, in addition to the Arsenicum album 30 and Gelsemium 30 mentioned above, I might use another Banerji Protocol that I discussed in a recent podcast: Rhus tox 30 mixed with Bryonia 30.
These are generally taken either alternating every 3 hours if initially getting sick OR mixed together in the mouth every 3 hours if symptoms are already established (e.g., achiness, chest heaviness).
I might also add Nux vomica 30 for chills and fever (especially in those who are overworked and achy). Ferrum phos 30 is a well-qualified medicine for low-grade fevers (which uniquely presents with Coronavirus).
Many times, any form of flu presents bone aches. I'm not talking about mild achiness here; I'm talking about the feeling that every bone in your body is breaking — intense pain, especially in the back.
This type of bone pain carries with it a restlessness — a desire to move, but that movement provides no relief.
There is also generally a prominent chilliness and inability to warm up. The pain may also be temporarily ameliorated after vomiting.
When the flu manifests in these symptoms, I have had great success with Eupatorium perfoliatum 200, taken every 3-4 hours depending on the intensity of the pain.
If there are coughs with the flu, you can search my blog for specific medicines matching the various types of coughs.
As you can see, I suggest using each symptom — while it is the predominant complaint — to guide you to the appropriate homeopathic medicine to use.
As each aspect of the condition clears —as the medicines have done their job — discontinue the current remedy's use and turn your attention to the next primary problem until you are returned to good health.
One last note: Don't be surprised — or embarrassed — if a bit of depression sets in after you've recovered from the flu.
It's very common, yet we all seem to think post-illness depression is unique to us. I rely on Aurum metallicum 200C, one dose every 2-3 days until I am back to my usual self.
My final point: remember, viruses don't respond to antibiotics.
All too often, people demand their health care practitioners prescribe an unnecessary antibiotic.
And much more often than they should, practitioners acquiesce.
Antibiotics should only be prescribed for bacterial infections, such as pneumonia, ear infections or sinus infections.
But — and it's a big BUT — we who employ homeopathy know even then, antibiotics carry their own long-term dangers.
There's an alternative!
For instance, the Aconite 200/Bryonia 30 Banerji Protocol I mentioned earlier is also an effective protocol for pneumonia.
Kali carb 200 is also extremely useful in pneumonia cases.
But proper utilization of these medicines requires more education than I can give in these short, free formats.
Because of the timeliness of this topic, I am relaunching my course, "The Antibiotic Alternative: Balance Your Bugs Without the Drugs."
Click here to download a free infographic and learn more about this valuable course.
I urge you to stop relying on allopathic drugs that carry myriad side-effects and trigger additional health concerns.
Homeopathy is relatively safe, gentle, polite and efficacious — when you are well-trained in its use.
There is no better time than now for you to learn the antibiotic alternatives homeopathy has to offer.
I hope you'll share this post, my podcasts and my Facebook Live events with your friends and loved ones who may also be concerned about the flu. Pass on the good news of homeopathy!
Quote from: mikemac on March 01, 2020, 11:18:26 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 01, 2020, 10:06:26 AM
Acolyte
I tried to pm you in relation to COPD that my late mother suffered until she got cancer but yours is switched off so I hope you don't mind me posting here. While my late mother was being treated for cancer she also supplemented naturally to boost her fighting chances.
She took Vitamin B17, Vitamin C high dose and Wheatgrass . B17 could only be purchased through TJ Supply in the US.
She was actually taking this for cancer when after a couple of months we noticed she was no longer out of breath after mild exertions, after nearly a year she was off all inhalers and nebuliser. When she'd be due a surgery or anesthetic for whatever reason, they would measure her oxygen levels which were in the 90's. I know COPD is not curable but honestly for my mother it was the cancer that got her and the COPD was a distant memory (she was told that she would be on an oxygen tank within 5 years of her diagnosis - never happened).
I will stress that this may not happen for you but I can 100% state it happened for my mother so take from it if you want.
Hi diaduit. The PMs you sent me regarding the Vitamin C high dose, wheatgrass supplement and B17 supplement that your mother took certainly do sound promising to combat or even get rid of COPD. Particularly when she was like this before she started "She got breathless for the littlest exertion like going to the bathroom etc." To this after being on the regime "After about a year of taking Vitamin C high dose, wheatgrass supplement and B17 supplement she and we all noticed she was breathing normal again. Her oxygens levels when measured were like that of a young woman and she came off all inhalers and nebulisers."
Sounds fantastic. But I tried to get the B17 from two different health food stores who both tried to talk me out of it. Apparently you can get cyanide poisoning from B17. B17 is banned in both the US and Canada. I could probably still get it from the TJ Supply source here.
https://www.tjsupply.com/500mg-Laetrile-60-tablets.html
But I don't know whether I should or not. Although you did say that your mother was on "these supplements on and off over her 8 year cancer battle." Sounds really good, but I don't know what to do here.
Diaduit I was planning on sending you this in a PM, but I'm including it here for Acolyte's benefit as well, you know, seeing you couldn't reach him by PM. I hope you don't mind?
No worries at all putting it up here. We originally heard about the wonders of B17 from Philip Day website who is a healthy living particularly re Cancer guru. Now he has a massive business from it but still even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Mam took the B17 on and off through out the 8 years of cancer but it was consistent so it was a regular part of her routine and she never had any issues with it. Certainly there would have been times she would have taken it 3 months to 6 months in a row. As I told you, she was a dollop of this and splash of that and a bit haphazard but she did take it regularly with breaks in between if that makes sense. She used to get it through Philip DAy credence.org website and then she couldn't and she sourced TJ supply.
If I remember correctly ( I am a disaster in this area) she was told about apricot kernels being anti cancer which were rich in B17 and this led her to B17 as a stand alone supplement.
I am sceptical about pharmaceutical companies giving advice (as a non vaxxer anyway), I do believe that God provided cures in our food and nature but not everything natural is safe. For example as I told you, she passed a kidney stone a couple of months before she died and this can be a side effect of high dose vitamin c. She was taking a high dose but she also had a treatment of Vit C by I.V. approx. 2 years before hand so its hard to tell was it from the I.V. or taking it orally.
I would email the TJ supply guys and find out what they produce this B17 for and about its potential side effects. Also look into apricot kernels and see if this is a better alternative.
Who remembers Chad Green?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/01/27/parents-defy-mass-court-order-take-child-to-mexico-for-laetrile/160e4178-1393-4a76-b89d-f91af85a32ee/
Quote from: red solo cup on March 02, 2020, 11:17:18 AM
Who remembers Chad Green?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/01/27/parents-defy-mass-court-order-take-child-to-mexico-for-laetrile/160e4178-1393-4a76-b89d-f91af85a32ee/
What happened to the child?
Crikey me mother was taking b17 and she had a strong heart until she died. Just goes to show 'tablets on the internet' heh.
Quote from: red solo cup on March 02, 2020, 11:17:18 AM
Who remembers Chad Green?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/01/27/parents-defy-mass-court-order-take-child-to-mexico-for-laetrile/160e4178-1393-4a76-b89d-f91af85a32ee/
It looks like he died in October of 1979.
Well that was fast. SK above 4,000, Italy 2,000.
USA now getting going. 96 cases. 5 deaths. Factoring in the lag looks like the 5-10% mortality rate for symptomatic cases is legit. By end of week the US should exceed 200 cases. Doubling rate every 4 days also looks legit.
UK at 40 and Canada at 27, both rising. Japan still rising.
Uncontained in the rest of Europe: Germany, France, Spain. UK and Netherlands picking up.
Iran seems to be very gravely affected, and no amount of licking shrines in Qom will help them.
11 of the 27 in Canada all surfaced in the last 4 or 5 days. I think they all came from flights from Iran. The first 3 came on 3 different flights. They wanted everyone on the 3 flights to come in for testing. Not good.
India seems to be doing okay. Only 5 cases so far. In a post from Xavier a couple of days ago it said that India is quarantining possible cases for 28 days, not the minimum 14. Not a bad idea.
How long will India remain safe? Fear spikes after new coronavirus data
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/for-how-long-can-india-be-safe-from-the-virus-new-fears-surface-after-new-coronavirus-data/articleshow/74441550.cms
Quote from: diaduit on March 02, 2020, 12:16:04 PM
Quote from: red solo cup on March 02, 2020, 11:17:18 AM
Who remembers Chad Green?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/01/27/parents-defy-mass-court-order-take-child-to-mexico-for-laetrile/160e4178-1393-4a76-b89d-f91af85a32ee/
What happened to the child?
Crikey me mother was taking b17 and she had a strong heart until she died. Just goes to show 'tablets on the internet' heh.
Yeah, apricot kernels contain laetrile. This article says a 67-year-old man in Australia got cyanide poisoning from the apricot kernel extract he was taking to beat cancer. He was ingesting two teaspoons of homemade apricot kernel extract and three tablets of Novodalin per day, equaling to 17.32 milligrams of cyanide. The Novodalin would be the same as the TJ Supply source, Novodalin being the brand name. But that is quite a bit more than what your mom was taking, wasn't it diaduit? Weren't you saying that she was taking just one tablet per day? And she wasn't taking the homemade apricot kernel extract either. The 67-year-old man didn't die. The article also says "A 28-month-old girl died because of high cyanide levels in her blood after eating 10 kernels."
A man who took apricot kernels to beat cancer got cyanide poisoning
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/11/16288104/apricot-kernels-cancer-cyanide-poisoning-case-study
Chad Green had leukemia. "Chad Green, the 3?year?old leukemia victim whose parents defied a court order and took him to Mexico for treatment with Laetrile, has died, his grandparents said today." Leukemia would be hard for a three year old to beat.
Child Cancer Victim In Dispute on Laetrile Dies in Mexico Home
https://www.nytimes.com/1979/10/14/archives/child-cancer-victim-in-dispute-on-laetrile-dies-in-mexico-home-fled.html
News from the front:
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/bmw-employee-munich-tests-positive-covid-19-150-others-sent-home-self-quarantine
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/its-sad-first-chinatowns-now-las-koreatown-asianphobia-crashes-food-sales-amid-coronavirus
Even if the virus does not crater the world's population, it is affecting the economy is various micro instances. In the article about BMW workers shutting up shop, the mention of the majority of cases in NW Germany is interesting in that, as well as being the most populous German region, it also has the highest concentration of (far East) Asians. The economic effects are going to be felt everywhere, it appears. Get your necessities as soon as possible and plan to hunker down. Even in my myopic and off the beaten path small town in Indiana, there seems to be a sense of concern. But then again, high school kids are always on edge for some stupid reason.
I think I will stock up on beer but will only drink it on Sundays (I gave up beer for Lent).
(https://cached.imagescaler.hbpl.co.uk/resize/scaleWidth/743/cached.offlinehbpl.hbpl.co.uk/news/OMC/Corona-20200302084849201.jpg)
Quote from: james03 on February 27, 2020, 09:38:42 AM
QuoteThere's ZERO evidence of that
A South Korean goes to Wuhan. Comes back and ends up with pneumonia and fever. Many people in contact with this dude also come down with pneumonia and fever.
You might not want to call that conclusive proof, but that's evidence.
No, it's not. It's not evidence of a contagious microbial pseudo-organism that causes disease. But carry on with your hysterical fear-mongering and telling people they are at extreme risk of death. You think you're just the opposite, but like Alex Jones you're really just a shill for the powers that be pushing this fake pandemic crap.
Quote from: james03 on February 29, 2020, 01:51:47 PM
Based on data from first world countries, we can start determining some stats: The cases are doubling every 4 days. Mortality rate around 5-10% for symptomatic cases.
Increased testing = "increased cases". What tests were being conducted for "coronavirus" across the globe in previous years? If you don't have past data on the distribution of "coronavirus", you have no basis from which to conclude that cases of a disease are "increasing".
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on February 29, 2020, 04:42:05 PM
A prediction:
There are thousands of infected hospital staff across America (because the virus has been here for over a month from many infected critical pneumonia patients but the CDC refused to test for them and I doubt isolation procedures were used on many, if any, of them).
A prediction:
If you ran PCR tests for "coronavirus" during any year you'd get thousands of "infected" hospital staff across America.
QuoteTragically many of them will die within a month because hospital staff, in general, are underrested and older.
A prediction:
"Many" under-rested and older hospital staff will die over the course of any month.
QuoteThese infected staff also will have spread the virus throughout their hospitals so it is likely already rampant in many American hospitals (increasing the total deaths from this criminally negligent leadership). Many whom die while already as patients in the hospital will go uncounted as this is covered up and only reported by "conspiracy theorists" until 5 years later some study from a "prestigious" university indicates that in 2020 there was a rash of sudden deaths in hospitals from ARDS and that it was probably Covid19.
Except every bit of data says just the opposite: that everything is being done by government, big business and media to create the image of a deadly pandemic and cause hysteria.
QuoteAlso Trump is going to lose. He will rightly be eviscerated for fumbling the world's most obvious pandemic and having at minimum 1.5 month's head lead on it and doing nothing with that gifted opportunity.
A prediction:
I'm going to return to this thread when none of your predictions have come true to rub it in your face.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 03, 2020, 06:47:11 AM
Quote from: james03 on February 29, 2020, 01:51:47 PM
Based on data from first world countries, we can start determining some stats: The cases are doubling every 4 days. Mortality rate around 5-10% for symptomatic cases.
Increased testing = "increased cases". What tests were being conducted for "coronavirus" across the globe in previous years? If you don't have past data on the distribution of "coronavirus", you have no basis from which to conclude that cases of a disease are "increasing".
I predict that James03 prognostications concerning Coronavirus will be as accurate as his repeated predictions over the years of economic collapses.
KR,
You are one of a kind. :)
Quote from: abc123 on March 03, 2020, 07:47:49 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 03, 2020, 06:47:11 AM
Quote from: james03 on February 29, 2020, 01:51:47 PM
Based on data from first world countries, we can start determining some stats: The cases are doubling every 4 days. Mortality rate around 5-10% for symptomatic cases.
Increased testing = "increased cases". What tests were being conducted for "coronavirus" across the globe in previous years? If you don't have past data on the distribution of "coronavirus", you have no basis from which to conclude that cases of a disease are "increasing".
I predict that James03 prognostications concerning Coronavirus will be as accurate as his repeated predictions over the years of economic collapses.
China still has its factories closed bar a few. They need to open very very soon otherwise James is very correct.
I think it's not a coincidence that Iran just became a new epicenter of the coronavirus. Isn't Iran this one "formidable" country slated for destruction by the "elder brothers in faith"?
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 03, 2020, 10:34:55 AM
I think it's not a coincidence that Iran just became a new epicenter of the coronavirus. Isn't Iran this one "formidable" country slated for destruction by the "elder brothers in faith"?
It did? Where? They are target #1.
Quote from: Heinrich on March 03, 2020, 10:45:03 AM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 03, 2020, 10:34:55 AM
I think it's not a coincidence that Iran just became a new epicenter of the coronavirus. Isn't Iran this one "formidable" country slated for destruction by the "elder brothers in faith"?
It did? Where? They are target #1.
2,336 cases of coronavirus in Iran already.
Quote from: mikemac on March 02, 2020, 11:32:00 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 02, 2020, 12:16:04 PM
Quote from: red solo cup on March 02, 2020, 11:17:18 AM
Who remembers Chad Green?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/01/27/parents-defy-mass-court-order-take-child-to-mexico-for-laetrile/160e4178-1393-4a76-b89d-f91af85a32ee/
What happened to the child?
Crikey me mother was taking b17 and she had a strong heart until she died. Just goes to show 'tablets on the internet' heh.
Yeah, apricot kernels contain laetrile. This article says a 67-year-old man in Australia got cyanide poisoning from the apricot kernel extract he was taking to beat cancer. He was ingesting two teaspoons of homemade apricot kernel extract and three tablets of Novodalin per day, equaling to 17.32 milligrams of cyanide. The Novodalin would be the same as the TJ Supply source, Novodalin being the brand name. But that is quite a bit more than what your mom was taking, wasn't it diaduit? Weren't you saying that she was taking just one tablet per day? And she wasn't taking the homemade apricot kernel extract either. The 67-year-old man didn't die. The article also says "A 28-month-old girl died because of high cyanide levels in her blood after eating 10 kernels."
A man who took apricot kernels to beat cancer got cyanide poisoning
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/11/16288104/apricot-kernels-cancer-cyanide-poisoning-case-study
Chad Green had leukemia. "Chad Green, the 3?year?old leukemia victim whose parents defied a court order and took him to Mexico for treatment with Laetrile, has died, his grandparents said today." Leukemia would be hard for a three year old to beat.
Child Cancer Victim In Dispute on Laetrile Dies in Mexico Home
https://www.nytimes.com/1979/10/14/archives/child-cancer-victim-in-dispute-on-laetrile-dies-in-mexico-home-fled.html
Hey diaduit, have you noticed that there is something that is just not adding up here. The article about the 67-year-old man in Australia says "The man didn't die, but he had abnormally low levels of oxygen in his body — a side effect of cyanide poisoning that can be fatal." Yet you said your mom had "oxygens levels when measured were like that of a young woman" and "oxygen levels which were in the 90's".
They wouldn't release me from the hospital until my oxygen level got up to 90. On the other hand a friend wasn't feeling well a couple of weeks ago so he phoned an ambulance. He spent the night in the hospital but was released the next day because his oxygen level was 98. So 90 is a low oxygen level count while 98 is high.
It sounds like your mother had a high oxygen level count. Do you remember what it was diaduit?
What I'm getting at is that maybe the lower dose of one per day Novodalin vitamin B17 500mg that your mother was taking had a different effect than the effect the Australian guy had, seeing he was taking three per day Novodalin vitamin B17 plus two teaspoons of homemade apricot kernel extract. You said "she was a dollop of this and splash of that and a bit haphazard", but "Certainly there would have been times she would have taken it 3 months to 6 months in a row", "with breaks in between." Maybe the breaks in between prevented her from getting cyanide poisoning and was the reason it helped her COPD?
Or maybe it wasn't the B17 that help her COPD? Maybe it was just the wheatgrass supplement and the high vitamin c doses that helped your mother's COPD? Do you think that is possible diaduit?
These two websites on wheatgrass say the following,
Does Wheatgrass Juice Oxygenate the Blood of Resting Individuals?
http://ispub.com/IJAM/7/2/8398
QuoteThis suggests that chlorophyll derivatives may increase the amount of oxygen present in the blood stream. 24 Since wheatgrass is one of the best sources of chlorophyll, it is possible that when ingested, wheatgrass causes an increase in the amount of oxygen in the blood.
The Surprising Benefits of Wheatgrass
https://spoonuniversity.com/healthier/wheatgrass-benefits
QuoteAccording to the American Cancer Society, Wheatgrass also benefits oxygen production through its rich chlorophyll content. Because chlorophyll is high in oxygen, more oxygen is delivered to the blood and the production of hemoglobin (the oxygen-carrying protein in our red blood cells) rises.
And on vitamin c.
7 Impressive Ways Vitamin C Benefits Your Body
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-c-benefits
Quote5. Helps prevent iron deficiency
Iron is an important nutrient that has a variety of functions in the body. It's essential for making red blood cells and transporting oxygen throughout the body.
Vitamin C supplements can help improve the absorption of iron from the diet. Vitamin C assists in converting iron that is poorly absorbed, such as plant-based sources of iron, into a form that is easier to absorb (18Trusted Source).
Does Too Much Vitamin C Cause Side Effects?
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/side-effects-of-too-much-vitamin-c
QuoteYou're most likely to experience digestive symptoms if you consume more than 2,000 mg at once. Thus, a tolerable upper limit (TUL) of 2,000 mg per day has been established
I'm taking 1,000 mg time released vitamin c twice a day. I may cut that back to once a day.
SK blew through 5,000. Italy at 2500.
US now at 122 with 9 deaths. Looks like a 5% fatality for symptomatic cases is still a good working number.
Europe spreading with notable hot spots in Germany, France, and Spain. Cases increasing in UK and Netherlands.
Economically the S&P 500 was off 2.8% AFTER the FED cut rates.
QuoteI predict that James03 prognostications concerning Coronavirus
What prognostications? I've been reporting the official stats. Make of them as you will.
This is what I've come up with as far as prognostications:
1. US will top 200 cases by Sunday.
2. For the vast majority of people it looks like you will suffer flu like symptoms, say a week in bed.
3. The major threat is economic, people not being able to go to work and supply chain problems from China.
4. It's too early to jump back in the market. T-bills are a good investment and sometime around May will probably be a good time to buy.
Am I missing something?
QuoteNo, it's not. It's not evidence of a contagious microbial pseudo-organism that causes disease.
Pneumonia, contact tracing, and CAT scans are evidence of contagion. Learn the difference between evidence and proof.
QuoteBut carry on with your hysterical fear-mongering and telling people they are at extreme risk of death.
Between you and I, you are the one getting hysterical. As far as the dude with COPD, I stand by my warning. Doing otherwise is reckless. Pneumonia and COPD don't mix very well. But I'll repeat what I've "hysterically" said: for the vast majority this looks like flu, not fatal. And even now, the reporting (in number) out of Western countries is only a week old. It will take some time until we get a better understanding of what we are dealing with.
WOW! This is big. I mean, really big:
[yt]https://youtu.be/igKqDvUaiiM[/yt]
I was planning to go on Friday to watch the Strongman Classic. Interestingly, as I have forsworn public gyms due the immodesty and dork elements that exist, I prayed last night for guidance if this is somewhere to go because of the overall fleshy nature of this business(and the fact that it is Lent). To understand, The Arnold Classic in Columbus, Oh is the largest health and fitness exposition in the world. Over 80 different disciplines ranging from bodybuilding, armwrestling, Highland Games, martial arts, etc. are there. The best of the best. Thousands of booths and an average of 250,000 visitors each year. Crushing blow for many as this is the peak competition.
We are having a wait and see attitude here whether to cancel st Patrick's day.
Quote from: diaduit on March 04, 2020, 08:28:50 AM
We are having a wait and see attitude here whether to cancel st Patrick's day.
Wow!
We need like 10grams of vitamin c a day minimum.
Huge planned tech events have been cancelled. Here's one:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/3/21163553/google-io-2020-cancelled-coronavirus-tech-developer-conference
https://www.electricsense.com/5g-coronavirus/?fbclid=IwAR1TWRXtS2WnorZ4_eavdIaWpVsN469kfh7kURoZ1DUnlBUhCEzW4FAdCxs
QuoteChina, 5G, And The Wuhan Coronavirus: The Emperor's New Virus
March 04, 2020
Could there be a link between the Coronavirus and 5G? Researcher and building biologist Paul Doyon has just spent the last 18 months in China. He's written a brilliant article laying out the evidence. And how you can protect yourself—an EMF based protection strategy. Warning: this is a heavy science based article with nearly 100 references to studies—neither Paul or myself want to be accused of fear-mongering:
My heart goes out to China and to all its people who have suffered so much due to this new "novel" Wuhan coronavirus outbreak (COVID-19).
However, as someone who had become very sick and had his immune system break down and was sick for six months looking for answers before even suspecting that living in close vicinity to several cell phone towers was actually what was causing the problem and making him sick, I feel I cannot in good conscience remain silent, and I strongly suspect that China and the rest of the world are looking under the wrong stone for what is actually the problem here.
At the moment, with 10,000 recently installed 5G antennas plastering its city, Wuhan is probably one of the most 5G-electropolluted cities on the planet.
Electrosmog Warnings from Scientists for Over 40 Years
Respected scientists, researchers, doctors, and activists have been — for over forty years — warning us about the dangers of wireless radiation and electromagnetic fields. In 1977, the reporter Paul Brodeur published a book called The Zapping of America; in 1985, the late Dr. Robert O. Becker (twice nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work on cellular dedifferentiation and re-differentiation in the healing process) wrote The Body Electric, and later published Cross Currents: The Perils of Electropollution, The Promise of Electromedicine in 1990; in 1995 (and again later in 2007), B. Blake Levitt, author and researcher, published Electromagnetic Fields: A Consumer's Guide to the Issues and How to Protect Ourselves. Since then there have been a slew of other books and documentary movies put out on the subject. And the list goes on and on.
Dr. Leif Stafford, Swedish neuro-oncologist, has called this wireless rollout
"the largest biological experiment ever." 1
And Dr. Robert O. Becker wrote in 1985 that
The dangers of electropollution are real and well documented. It changes, often pathologically, every biological system [emphasis added]. What we don`t know is exactly how serious these changes are, for how many people. The longer we as a society, put off a search for that knowledge, the greater the damage is likely to be and the harder it will be to correct. (p. 304) 2
And finally, Dr. Martin Pall, PhD, and Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry and Basic Medical Sciences at Washington State University has stated recently that
Putting in tens of millions of 5G antennae without a single biological test of safety has got to be about the stupidest idea anyone has had in the history of the world. 3
The BioInitiative
In 2007, a report titled the BioInitiative was published, it was republished again in 2012, and there have been ongoing updates between 2014 and 2019. Its website states that
the BioInitiative 2012 Report has been prepared by 29 authors from ten countries, ten holding medical degrees (MDs), 21 PhDs, and three MsC, MA or MPHs. Among the authors are three former presidents of the Bioelectromagnetics Society, and five full members of BEMS. 4
These are highly respected scientists coming from some of the world's most respected universities and institutes. 5
The BioInitiative further warns
... that evidence for risks to health has substantially increased since 2007 from electromagnetic fields and wireless technologies (radiofrequency radiation). The Report reviews over 1800 new scientific studies.... Health topics include damage to DNA and genes, effects on memory, learning, behavior, attention, sleep disruption, cancer and neurological diseases like Alzheimer's disease. New safety standards are urgently needed for protection against EMF and wireless exposures that now appear everywhere in daily life. 6 See more scientific research here.
5G Warnings
With the coming advent of the newest in wireless technology, 5G, numerous researchers, doctors, and professional and activist organizations have been administering health warnings regarding its coming implementation. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
See here the dangers of 5G radiation.
And even recently, there were marches in major cities throughout the world protesting the advent of this technology. 14
Unfortunately, for the majority of the population, these warnings have fallen on deaf ears, with the seemingly widely held view out there believing that 5G is the next best thing since Ben & Jerry's™ Cherry Garcia™ ice cream.
Of course, the downplaying of the hazards is understandable given the extreme benefits and conveniences all this technology has continuously offered an unsuspecting populace. Unfortunately, these people are also often quick to ridicule and marginalize those who try to warn of these dangers by labeling them as Luddite tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy theorists, until, of course, either they or someone close to them suddenly gets sick and they then see a possible connection with these EMF exposures, and then suddenly there is a change of tune, and they are quick to inquire about what they can do to protect themselves: e.g. how to shield their homes and offices, what EMF meters to buy.
In Sacramento, California, a 5G antenna was removed from a primary school, after some parents there started to suspect that it was linked to a number of cancer cases in the school. 15
16
The Coronavirus Outbreak
The recent COVID-19 outbreak has stimulated mass fear and mass hysteria across the planet, in spite of the fact that there have only been 93 deaths (at the time of this writing on February 29th, 2020) outside China, with 2835 of the deaths 17 and 99 percent of infections occurring within China. 18
In fact, the highest death rates outside of China have been in places already implementing 5G technology, South Korea and Italy, for example. The exception is Iran, which at present has 978 cases, and 54 deaths, is officially not implementing it, but very well may secretly be trialing it given the reason why
on December 1, 2018, at the request of the US government, Meng Wanzhou — Huawei's CFO and daughter of its founder — was arrested in Canada on allegations she participated in a conspiracy to defraud banks in connection with Iran sanctions violations, 19
was indeed because Huawei was working to sell their 5G technology to the Iranians. In fact, Iran — in a joint operation between Irancell and Ericsson — had started trialing the technology back in September of 2017. 20 In the article, titled "Irancell, Ericsson Test 5G Systems," (2017) it is stated that
the technology will be available by 2020 and become globally accessible a year later.
During the event at Irancell headquarters, the company's CEO Alireza Dezfouli said "We are aiming to keep pace with the international operators. Iran will not be left behind again."
Furthermore, a number of articles in the media, have stated that Iran has carried out "preparations" and is ready to launch 5G. 21 22 23 Well, preparations usually include trialing. Hence, it is easy to believe that Iran already has the 5G infrastructure set up and they have been secretly trialing it.
Belgium, on the other hand, — which had decided not to even trial 5G, let alone implement it, due to radiation concerns 24 — has had only one case so far of the coronavirus (recovered) and no deaths.
In fact, for the majority, the symptoms of patients outside of China, (especially with those away from the 5G), for the most part, have seemingly been relatively mild, as one would most likely see with a regular cold or flu virus, and with many of those infected not showing any symptoms at all.
Mild Symptoms Outside China
It is stated by Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, (Head of the WHO's Health Emergencies Program), in the continuously updated Al Jazeera article, "What happens if you catch the new corona virus?" that "some patients do not show any symptoms," and that
"You have mild cases, which look like the common cold, which have some respiratory symptoms, sore throat, runny nose, fever, all the way through pneumonia. And there can be varying levels of severity of pneumonia all the way through multi-organ failure and death," she told reporters in Geneva last week.
However, in most cases, symptoms have remained mild.
"We've seen some data on about 17,000 cases and overall 82 percent of those are mild, 15 percent of those are severe and 3 percent of those are classified as critical," said Van Kerkhove. 18
Moreover, in numerous YouTube videos 25 26 27 28 29 we are seeing interviews with patients that have been seemingly showing only mild symptoms.
One example is that of Rebecca Frazier, interviewed numerous times on numerous news programs, after being admitted to a Tokyo Hospital after being found to be infected with the COVID-19 on the Diamond Princess Cruise Ship. In one of the interviews, conducted by the New Zealand news program on the Radio New Zealand (RNZ) network titled "I never really felt unwell," for example, the interviewer states the following and then goes onto interview Ms. Frazier:
"Incapacitated, needing help to breath, and surrounded by doctors in hazmat suits, is perhaps the go-to image of those infected with coronavirus. Not so for Rebecca Frazier, who has Covid-19 as it is now known. Curiously, she looks just fine. She's in isolation in a Tokyo hospital after testing positive for the virus, while onboard the Diamond Princess Cruise Ship that is now docked in Yokohama, in lockdown for 14 days.... Rebecca says she's shocked that she has tested positive for the deadly virus given how fit and well she feels."
"I just can't believe it. Just can't believe this is happening to you. Umm. I... You know, I am not one to freak out...."
"Did you feel unwell? Do you feel unwell?"
"No. I never really felt unwell. I had a little bit of a cough when they told me, and when I got here, I had a little bit of a fever, but all of that has normalized and I have no symptoms...."25
In another YouTube video,29 this one from a Chinese TV network, is a report by a nurse in Wuhan, who contracted the virus, and decided to stay home to recover (which might very well have been what saved her life).
In the video, we see her going about her daily life as if only seemingly bothered by what would only be a normal cold virus.
In a BBC 30 report about Steve Walsh, labeled a "Super Spreader," a man who was apparently infected by COVID-19 in Singapore and apparently spread it to numerous others at a ski resort in France, we hear one of his neighbors state that
"His wife told me on the phone that really he is not that ill and she thinks it is a complete basically a load of rubbish umm and it's no worse than flu. Probably not as bad." (2:20)
So... why is it that, while these people are seemingly only manifesting mild symptoms, many people in China, and especially in the city of Wuhan (and some other provinces), are having such a difficult time with many unfortunately succumbing to the virus, and (for want of a better expression) "dropping like flies"?
At least 10,000 5G Antennas Installed in Wuhan Alone
What has not been apparent in the news reports is the fact that China in its rush to take the lead in the 5G race, had by the end of 2019 (and mostly within the last several months leading up to the COVID-19 outbreak) installed 130,000 5G antennas throughout the country, 31 with at least 10,000 antennas installed in Wuhan alone. 32 (As a comparison, the USA only has approximately 10,000 5G antennas presently installed throughout the whole country.)
Man holding phone up for 5G connection
"Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei, is expected to have 10,000 5G base stations by the end of 2019..." 32
"According to previous reports, the three operators were expecting to operate nearly 130,000 5G base stations by the end of 2019."
Wuhan: One of the Initial Cities Trialing 5G
In fact, Wuhan was one of the initial 16 cities selected to trial 5G back in 2018.
China Unicom will begin testing 5G network in 16 cities including Beijing, Tianjin, Qingdao, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Wuhan, Guiyang, Chengdu, Shenzhen, Fuzhou, Zhengzhou, and Shenyang.
China Mobile will conduct external field test and set up more than a hundred 5G base stations in each of the following five cities: Hangzhou, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Suzhou, and Wuhan. 34
From the article, "Wuhan 5G Industry Development: Five-Chain Coordination, Three-Wheel Drive," (??5G????????? ????), 35 (written in Chinese) published October 11th, 2019, it becomes clear that Wuhan was in a race with other Chinese cities to position itself at the forefront of 5G technology, and with approximately 10,000 5G antennas, is probably one of — if not the most — 5G-radiated city in China:
At present, Wuhan is seizing major developmental opportunities in 5G commercialization, with the construction of a national first-class 5G network as a guide, with the development of a national first-class 5G industry as the main body....
...Wuhan City has fully implemented the "Wuhan 5G Base Station Planning and Construction Implementation Plan," with an extraordinary policy effort, to guide and support basic telecommunications companies and China Tower Corporation to accelerate the construction of 5G networks. This year and next, Wuhan will build more than 20,000 5G base stations, form a 5G basic network with leading scale, first-class quality, and strong demonstration to ensure full coverage of the 5G network in the city and be at the leading level among similar cities in the country. 35
Finally, it was stated in an article titled "5G network coming to Wuhan," (April 16, 2018), that "3,000 macro base stations and 27,000 micro base stations" would soon be constructed, and that by 2020, the "5G network will cover every corner of the city and be available at an affordable price." 36 This means that there may in fact be a lot more than just 10,000 antennas in Wuhan, though 10,000 alone would make Wuhan one of the most 5G concentrated cities in the world.
5G Systems Deployed in Hospitals
What is also concerning here is that China has, since about November of 2019, been installing 5G systems in its hospitals. 37 38 39 40
"Key Chinese hospitals, leading telecom carriers and Huawei Wednesday launched a project to establish standards for 5G-based networks in hospitals." 37
"China released a pioneering standard for its 5G hospital networks, following a joint drafting and verification process between the medical and telecommunication industries." 38
5G Systems Installed at Wuhan Coronavirus Hospitals
And to seemingly add insult to injury here, Huawei was very quick to install 5G systems in the new coronavirus hospitals — Wuhan Volcan Mountain Hospital and Thunder Mountain Hospital — the two hospitals known for only being built in just over a week. 41 425G scientific research
The two articles cited here are ironically titled, (1) "Huawei installs 5G in China Hospital to fight Coronavirus," and (2) "Huawei builds 5G in Wuhan Hospital, aims to indirectly fight the Coronavirus" as this might very well be the complete opposite of what they are indeed intending to do here. There is also an interesting video on YouTube entitled "Chinese hospitals deploy robots to help medical staff fight coronavirus outbreak," 43 demonstrating this in action.
Chinese Telecoms Started Offering 5G Commercially in Nov, 2019
The Chinese telecom companies started to offer commercial 5G services to its customers on the first of November last year.
China's three major wireless carriers— China Mobile, China Unicom , and China Telecom —will begin selling 5G services to consumers on Friday, November 1st in 50 major cities, including Beijing and Shanghai, said Chen Zhaoxiong, vice minister of the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology on Thursday October 31st at a Beijing conference....
The Chinese government has made building 5G a national priority, clearing red tape and reducing costs so the three wireless providers introduce the new technology as swiftly as possible. "They've made this a national priority. It's part of the [Communist] Party's ability to show that it's delivering the goods," said Paul Triolo, head of geo-technology at the Eurasia Group consultancy. "And in the middle of the trade dispute and the actions against Huawei, it's even more important for China to show that they are continuing to move forward despite all these challenges," he added....
China's central government wants 5G coverage extended to cover all of Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou and Guangzhou by the end of the year. The country's largest carrier, China Mobile, which has 900 million cellphone subscribers, says it will be able to offer 5G services in more than 50 cities this year....
Approximately 13,000 5G base stations have been installed in Beijing, the communications administration said this week. About 10,000 are already operating. China already has a total of more than 80,000 5G macro base stations, typically cellular towers with antennas and other hardware that beam wireless signals over wide areas, government officials said. See this article on 5G towers.
They said China will end the year with about 130,000, while Bernstein Research estimates South Korea will be in second place with 75,000, followed by the U.S. with 10,000. Piper Jaffray estimated that of the 600,000 5G base stations expected to be rolled out worldwide next year, half will be in China. 31
This basically means that China had suddenly turned on the 5G switch, just less than two months before the COVID-19 outbreak, suddenly blanketing many cities with this 5G wireless radiation. And as of this writing, South Korea's numbers of COVID-19 cases are also starting to skyrocket. As we can see from the above article, South Korea has the second highest number of 5G antennas with 75,000. That is a lot for a country its size. Is there a connection? I think there is with at present (Feb. 29, 2020) also the highest number of coronavirus cases (3150) and one of the highest number of death rates (17) outside of China.
Forty Cities Drinking 5G Service
In the online article, "These 40 Cities Will Drink 5G Service," 44 published June 7th, 2019, it was revealed that it had been decided that 5G would be launched in 40 cities across China in 2019 by China Mobile and China Unicom (with no specific information from China Telecom yet at that time).
Cities on this list included in Zhejiang Province were Hangzhou, Ningbo, and Wenzhou, not to mention places like Beijing, Shanghai, Wuhan, Guangzhou, Suzhou, and Shenzhen. The initial plan it seems, called the "7+33+n" 5G network deployment strategy, was to have full coverage in Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Nanjing, and Xiong'an, with hotspot coverage in the other 33 cities, and then customized 5G networks in so-called "n" cities, though this might have very well changed as other cities seemingly also wanted full coverage (note Wuhan's installation of 10,000 5G antennas).
Top Most Coronavirus-Hit Provinces After Wuhan:
Zhejiang and Guangdong
Interestingly, at one point in this saga, the second most hit (with the COVID-19) provinces were Zhejiang and Guangdong Provinces, (though as of this writing, Zhejiang has now been taken over by Henan). 45 The provinces listed below, in Chinese, and in order of most cases, are (1) Hubei ????, (2) Guangdong ????, (3) Henan ????, (4) Zhejiang ????, and (5) Hunan ????.
It has been so bad in Zhejiang Province that Japan, on Feb. 12th, even extended its entry restrictions to virus-hit Zhejiang (at the time was third in number of COVID-19 cases).
It includes the cities of Hangzhou and Wenzhou, which have among the country's highest concentrations of coronavirus cases. Hangzhou hosts the headquarters of Alibaba Group Holding, while Wenzhou is famed as a cradle of small business. 46
On the map (Wikipedia) below 47, Zhejiang Province is the darker red province off to the right and Guangdong Province is the darker red one at the bottom. The darkest red province in the middle is Hubei with Wuhan in its center. Henan Province is above Hubei Province and Hunan Province is below it.
Courtesy of wikipedia
These cities (Hangzhou, Wenzhou, and Ningbo) have also been cities selected to trial the 5G in Zhejiang province.
Ookla 5G Maps 48 tracks 5G deployment around the world, the number of telecoms offering 5G service in various cities in China.
In the city of Hangzhou, all three Chinese telecoms are providing 5G service in the city; whereas in Ningbo, only two are, and in Wenzhou, only one (China Mobile) is.
The three cities in Zhejiang Province with the most cases have been Hangzhou (168 cases), Ningbo (156 cases), and Wenzhou (503 cases), 50 which are also curiously the cities selected to trial the 5G. The city proper of Wenzhou itself (though when one includes the outer-lying prefectures the total comes 9 million), for example, with only 200,000 people, has an inordinately high number of people infected with COVID-19, and the city has been on lockdown.
But as you can see from some of the articles selected below that there has been a major push in this city to implement and blanket cover their cities with 5G technology.
In the online article, "China Tower Built 8400 5G Stations in Zhejiang" 51 (Oct. 21st, 2019), it is revealed that 8400 5G base stations have recently been installed in Zhejiang Province, with 4775 (out of an order of 6154) installed in Hangzhou alone, and 3200 of these installed within 100 days (in just a little over three months).
China Tower Built 8400 5G Stations in Zhejiang
According to a person in charge of China Tower (Zhejiang), since this year, it has undertaken more than ten thousand 5G construction demands. At present, 8397 stations have been completed, more than 96% of which were built on the stock station sites. In Hangzhou, since this year, 6154 5G demands have been accepted and 4775 have been completed and delivered, of which 93% are directly met and transformed through stock station sites.
In the downtown of Hangzhou, after receiving the 5G construction demand of three telecom enterprises, China Tower (Zhejiang), with the support of the government, completed 3200 5G base stations in the West Lake scenic area, Olympic Sports Center and other scenes within 100 days, and cooperated with telecom enterprises to complete quick installation and debugging of equipment, based on existing telecom rooms, cabinets, power supporting facilities and 5G antenna added on stock station sites, street lamp poles, buildings, etc. 51
In another online article, published in Chinese, "China Tower installs 8,400 5G antennas in Zhejiang, 96% based on existing sites," [?????????8400?5G???96%??????], 52 we can see China Tower blanketing Hangzhou with 5G antennas in a very short period of time.
In this article, it is stated that "Zhejiang is one of the earliest provinces in the country to start building 5G networks," and that "China Tower Zhejiang Company ... started the acceleration of 5G construction in the first year of 5G commercialization...." And further that, "more than 10,000 5G construction requirements have been undertaken since this year," with "8397 sites ... completed."
It becomes clear that the Zhejiang Province, home to the tech giant, Alibaba, is one of the provinces slated to become one of the first to introduce the 5G. In the following article, "Delta region to build world-class information communication hub," 53 (Updated: 2019-11-01) it is stated that with the commercialization of 5G services on Oct. 31st,
[f]ifty cities were selected to become among the first to access commercial 5G services, including 10 cities in the Yangtze River Delta (YRD) region, half of which are from Zhejiang province – Hangzhou, Ningbo, Wenzhou, Jiaxing, and Shaoxing.
It is further stated that the three telecom companies plus China Tower would be investing in the region a total of 200 billion yuan (USD $28.4 billion) for the 5G infrastructure construction in order to "build it into a world-class information communication hub."
According to a development plan for the region released in 2016, China Telecom, China Unicom, China Mobile and China Tower are planning to invest more than 200 billion yuan ($28.4 billion) in 5G infrastructure construction in the region by 2021 to help "build it into a world-class information communication hub" promoting the "region's pilot use of 5G network and applications," and making "it clear that the YRD region will be the first in China to conduct trial commercial use of 5G services," while aiming to "realize the coverage of the 5G network throughout the province by 2025." 53
Coastal City of Wenzhou Worst Hit in Zhejiang Province
In the province of Zhejiang, the cities of Hangzhou, Ningbo, and Wenzhou, have the highest numbers of COVID-19 cases. These are also the main places where 5G has been installed so far in the province.
covid-19
Wenzhou, for a relatively small Chinese city, has the inordinately highest number — at present 503 — of cases in Zhejiang Province, and has been on lockdown 54 since Feb. 2nd when the number of cases there reached 304.
Wenzhou: Internet and 5G Hub
In the past year, there have been numerous conferences in this small city promoting 5G directly or indirectly. 55 56 57
For example, the Conference on the Internet of Things (IoT) for Industry and Energy opened there in September of last year and the Sixth World Internet Conference opened there in October of last year. The Conference on the Internet of Things (IoT) for Industry and Energy exhibited the latest state-of-the-art IoT technologies and 5G applications for big data technologies and IoT platforms. The Sixth World Internet (three-day) Conference brought together over 1,500 attendees from over 70 countries and regions, including Nobel Prize winners, and executives from major tech companies like Qualcomm, Alibaba, and Huawei.
In an article titled, "Experience the construction of 5G base stations under high temperature," published in Chinese (?????5G????) 58 on Aug. 26, 2019, it is stated that "Wenzhou is one of the first 5G pilot cities of the three major operators, and 5G network coverage is in full swing."
In another article, "Wenzhou shows big ambition in IoT industry," 59 (Sept. 10th, 2019), it is further stated:
"Wenzhou is building itself into a pilot city for China's smart city construction and 5G applications," Chen said, "Now, there are 13 cloud computing centers, over 500 5G base stations and more than 10,000 narrow-band IoT bases in the city."
Finally, looking at yet another article published approximately six months later titled "The first case in Zhejiang! S1 line is the first to achieve full coverage of mobile 5G signals," (Jan. 19th, 2020), (also published in Chinese, ?????S1???????5G?????) 60 which revels at the 5G signal penetration along the "Longwan Airport-Wenzhou South High Speed Rail S1 line," it becomes obvious that Wenzhou has also taken part in the 5G race to plaster its city with 5G electromagnetic waves.
Electromagnetic Fields (EMFs) and the Immune System
Wireless radiation from 1G to 5G have all emitted modulated "Radiofrequency (RF) electromagnetic fields (EMFs)" and there are literally thousands of studies showing biological effects from exposures to man-made electromagnetic waves, and out of these, hundreds showing biological effects on the immune system.
To give just one example, research by Kolomytseva, et al. (2002) described in the paper, "Suppression of nonspecific resistance of the body under the effect of extremely high frequency electromagnetic radiation of low intensity," 61 found that with
whole-body exposure of healthy mice to low-intensity extremely-high-frequency electromagnetic radiation (EHF EMR, 42.0 GHz, 0.15 mW/cm2, 20 min daily)... phagocytic activity of peripheral blood neutrophils was suppressed by about 50% (p < 0.01 as compared with the sham-exposed control) in 2-3 h after the single exposure to EHF EMR...
and that this
... effect persisted for 1 day after the exposure, and then the phagocytic activity of neutrophils returned to the norm within 3 days.
And furthermore,
a significant modification of the leukocyte blood profile in mice exposed to EHF EMR for 5 days was observed after the cessation of exposures: the number of leukocytes increased by 44% (p < 0.05 as compared with sham-exposed animals), mostly due to an increase in the lymphocyte content.
They concluded that,
the results indicated that the whole-body exposure of healthy mice to low-intensity EHF EMR has a profound effect on the indices of nonspecific immunity.
In a paper 62 (written by myself along with Prof. Olle Johansson of the Karolinska Institute) — which I believe offers the most solid hypothesis to date on the main mechanisms by which EMFs do in fact disable the immune system —a number of these related to immune system effects can be found listed in the citations.
Johansson (2012) further details, in Section 8 of the BioInitiative, "Evidence for EMF Effects on the Immune System," 63 numerous studies demonstrating those effects, especially with regards to how radiofrequency EMFs alter the immune system.
In the previously mentioned Aljazeera article,18 it is stated that a study published in the medical journal, The Lancet, on January 24th, found
what it called a "cytokine storm" in infected patients who were severely ill. The condition is a severe immune reaction in which the body produces immune cells and proteins that can destroy other organs.
Hence, it should be noted here that there are, in fact, numerous research studies showing an EMF effect on cytokines: A PubMed search, for example, produced 119 search results. 64
Back in 1998, a biologist named Roger Coghill conducted an experiment where he "took white blood cells, known as lymphocytes, from a donor," and kept them alive via the use of nutrients while exposing them to either cell phone radiation or the natural electromagnetic field of the human body. He discovered that of the immune cells exposed to cell phone radiation, only 13% remained undamaged and able to function properly; whereas, of cells exposed only to body's natural electromagnetic field, 70% remained undamaged and able to function properly. Naturally, while his research did provide insight, he was attacked and criticized by the wireless industry for being "unscientific."
Dr. Robert O. Becker (1985) wrote of how the immune system is weakened by manmade electromagnetic fields via the induction of "subliminal stress":
Initially, the stress activates the hormonal and/or immune systems to a higher than normal level, enabling the animal to escape danger and combat disease. If the stress continues, hormone levels and immune reactivity gradually decline to normal. If you stop your experiment at this point, you're apparently justified in saying, "The animal has adapted; the stress is doing no harm." Nevertheless, if the stressful conditions persist, hormone and immune levels decline further, well below normal. In medical terms, stress decompensation has set in, and now the animal is now more susceptible to other stressors, including malignant growth and infectious diseases.
... One aspect of the syndrome was very puzzling. When undergoing these hormonal changes, an animal would normally be aware that its body was under attack, yet, as far as we could tell, the rabbits were not. They showed no outward signs of fear, agitation, or illness. Most humans certainly wouldn't be able to detect a 100-gauss magnetic field, at least not consciously. Only several years after Friedman's work did anyone find out how this is happening.
In 1976 a group under J. J. Noval at the Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory at Pensacola, Florida, found the slow response in rats from very weak electric fields, as low as five thousandths of a volt per centimeter. They discovered that when such fields vibrated in the ELF range, the increased levels of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine in the brainstem, apparently in a way that activated a distress signal subliminally, without the animal's becoming aware of it. The scariest part was that the fields Noval used were well within the background levels of a typical office, with its overhead lighting, typewriters, computers, and other equipment. Workers in such an environment are exposed to electric fields between a hundredth and a tenth of a volt per centimeter and magnetic fields between a hundredth and a tenth of a gauss. (pp. 277-278) 2
EMF Weaken immune system
Suffice it to say, while there are multiple mechanisms involved by which EMFs do weaken the immune system, there is no question that EMFs can indeed have an adverse effect on the immune system.
5G Is Much More Powerful and Dangerous Than Its Predecessors
The 5G rollout — either the trialing stage or implementation stage — has already started in most major developed countries of the world, with majority of the rest seemingly preparing for its debut.
The European Commission has asked each member state to select one city to be 5G-ready by 2020 as part of the EU's 5G Action Plan for a Digital Single Market. The European Commission has asked EU member countries to start trialing 5G in at least one city making it 5G ready by 2020 under its "5G Action Plan for a Digital Single Market."
Belgium refused — even the trialing phase, not to mention the implementation phase — due to the higher radiation levels that the 5G would bring, which was way above what its radiation standards permitted. Switzerland started with both trials and implementation, but put a halt to further rollout, due to all the complaints about the health effects it was getting. Other countries seemingly just lowered their standards probably because they could not resist the next best thing to Ben & Jerry's Chunky Monkey Ice Cream. And the USA and China have seemingly been in a 5G race to blanket their countries in this 5G radiation (and most likely inadvertently the coronavirus), with China now seemingly winning on both those fronts.
5G has been divided into low, mid, and high bandwidths. The low-to-mid-bandwidth frequencies "are contiguous and range from 600 MHz to 6 GHz," 66 and have been used for 1G-4G for the past forty years. On the other hand, the higher-frequency millimeter wave bandwidths are new frequencies starting at approximately 24 GHz (in the US anyway), and have not been used for commercial cell phone service in in the USA until recently with the advent of these commercial 5G services.
For the most part, at present, most 5G is now in the low to mid bandwidth range, with limited high millimeter wave coverage, though that will probably change as the technology develops and is implemented. Also, 5G technology is being implemented alongside with and piggybacking on already-in-place 4G technology. The 5G technology brings with it both larger macro-base stations and smaller micro-base stations installed between the larger macro-base stations. And because these micro-base stations are often closer to people's homes in residential areas, according to Building Biology Certified Electromagnetic Radiation Specialist (EMRS), Oram Miller,
we are now measuring higher RF levels in client's homes, especially in second story bedrooms (read Lloyd's article on EMFs in bedrooms), up to tens to hundreds of thousands of microWatts/meter squared (uW/m2) from these new antennas,
whereas,
the building biology profession and EMF experts around the world say 10 micro-Watts per meter squared or less is safe for sleeping areas (actually, 0.1 uW/m2 is our "No Anomaly" level for sleeping areas). Here is a list of EMF Experts.
Furthermore, as we have gone up the spectrum from 1G to 5G, with each new generation there has been increased modulation, and increased modulation means increased biological effects and biological harm for all life on this planet. 5G is no exception. Oram Miller goes onto further explain
All of these advanced technologies push more cell signals into the same airspace at faster speeds with far more modulation than current 4G cell technologies.
And...
This modulation of cell signals transmitted in the low and mid bands from new 5G and 4G LTE-Advanced small cell radios and antennas popping up everywhere probably accounts for the majority of people living near these antennas who report the onset of health symptoms not experienced previously.
Dr. Martin Pall, Ph.D. (Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry and Basic Medical Sciences, Washington State University), — who brought the world's attention to the fact that EMFs cause biological harm via the opening up voltage-gated calcium channels (VGCC), allowing for excessive flow of calcium ions inside the cell and the prompting of nitric oxide (N.O.) production via the stimulation of the enzyme nitric oxide synthase to form a host of reactive oxygen species via downstream effects 67 — has warned that the rollout of 5G will have massive deleterious effects on the world's population, not to mention all life forms. He believes that 5G will be much more dangerous for the following reasons:
1. The extraordinary high numbers of antennae that are planned.
2. The very high energy outputs which will be used to ensure penetration.
3. The extraordinary high pulsation levels.
4. The apparent high-level interactions of the 5G frequency on charged groups presumably including the voltage sensor charged groups. 68
In a recent paper of his titled "Massive Predicted Effects of 5G," (Dec. 17, 2019) 69 Pall states that "given the high pulsation level for 5G radiation, even short exposures may well produce severe biological effects," not to mention the power densities of up to 30 times higher than previous systems of 1G to 4G and with penetration being enhanced via the magnetic component. He is predicting that with the full-fledged turning on of 5G (versus just its trial phase, where there is little communication yet happening with the 5G), that we will be seeing (1) decreased human reproduction, (2) lowered collective brain function, (3) very early-onset Alzheimer's, (4) increased autism and ADHD, (5) deterioration of the human gene pool, and (6) massive increases in cardiac arrests.
While following the rollout of 5G, he has tracked numerous signs of its biological effects. For example, he has outlined increases in neuropsychiatric effects, cardiac effects, and electromagnetic hypersensitivity, taken from Swiss online articles, 70 71 as what we are already starting to see with the advent of this technology:
• Increases in insomnia, tinnitus, headaches, inability to concentrate, and fatigue.
• Increases in electromagnetic hypersensitivity (EHS).
• Increases in cardiac arrhythmias.
He reports that while these effects had been reported before with occupational exposure studies and smart meter studies, "the effects appear to be much more severe following [the rollout of] 5G" with "even more severe apparent [yet to be published] 5G neuropsychiatric effects [appearing] in Southern California," with their own recent massive rollout of 5G.
Furthermore, he states that "we have every reason to believe that any full-fledged 5G system, communicating with the 'internet of things' will produce still vastly greater effects than any of these initial findings." This might very well be what we are seeing in the city of Wenzhou City, Zhejiang Province, in China — which has already implemented this technology along with the 5G — with extraordinary high rates of the coronavirus, and who knows what other increases in health effects (e.g. increases in heart problems, blindness, electromagnetic hypersensitivity, etc.) there have been that have not been made public.
He goes onto further outline — in correlation with 5G testing — UK 5G ambulance service suicides, 72 cases of panic in cattle in the Netherlands, 73 and bizarre, aggressive behavior in cattle and sheep in Germany, 74 birth defects in Germany and France, 75 76 and hundreds of birds dropping from the sky due to sudden cardiac arrest during three days of 5G testing in a park near Rotterdam, 77 and the list goes on and on to also include insect death and increases in fires in South Korea. 78 79
(See also the article on is 5G dangerous?)
Could the 5G Be Making the Coronavirus More Virulent?
When we look at the following video, it becomes apparent that smaller life forms like insects are indeed more sensitive to this wireless microwave radiation, with this clear example coming only from radar:
This picture shows some aphids on the leaf of an orange tree. Shortly after radar was installed at a nearby airport a number of years ago, I noticed that every few seconds, all the aphids would tense up in unison and do sort of a little dance, as you see in the picture. Upon further investigation, I found that the interval of time in between the activity of each dance, coincided exactly with the rotation of the radar rotor device at the airport, which was a distance of approximately fourteen miles.
In the following video, Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt talks about an experiment where mold exposed to EMFs proliferated:
Now I am going to make the link to the electromagnetic fields. An acquaintant physician in Switzerland who is a main mold researcher in Europe made a beautiful experiment. He grew mold cultures under a Faraday cage simply like a silver coat, it looks like a mosquito net, that is made out of silver-coated cloth. [It had] been draped over the mold culture. And he measured how much mycotoxins, how much toxins, are these molds producing on a daily basis. Very easy to do. Then he lifted the mosquito net and exposed the mold culture to the ambient electromagnetic radiation in his laboratory, which was caused by the lights that were on, by the computer in the corner, and especially, and he found out later, the ambient cell phone radiation, from the nearby cell phone tower that was broadcasting cell phone radiation. He found out that the production of biotoxins in this culture went up more than 600 times. Not only that the mold suddenly put out significantly more mycotoxins to protect themselves, but also much more virulent, much more vicious, more poisonous mycotoxins. And I took that experiment as was for me a big lightbulb went on....
So what if the same kind of thing is happening with the 5G radiation and the coronavirus? Pall (2020) lists in a newer version of his paper 80 (previously mentioned) a number of studies which in fact strongly support this theory.
The question that is being raised here is not whether 5G is responsible for the virus, but rather whether 5G radiation, acting via VGCC activation may be exacerbating the viral replication or the spread or lethality of the disease.
Let's backtrack and look at the recent history of 5G in Wuhan in order to get some perspective on those questions. An Asia Times article, dated Feb.12, 2019 stated that there were 31 different 5G base stations (that is antennae) in Wuhan at the end of 2018.
There were plans developed later such that approximately 10,000 5G antennae would be in place at the end of 2019, with most of those being on 5G LED smart street lamps.
The first such smart street lamp was put in place on May 14, 2019, but large numbers only started being put in place in October, 2019, such that there was a furious pace of such placement in the last 2 ½ months of 2019.
These findings show that the rapid pace of the coronavirus epidemic developed at least roughly as the number of 5G antennae became extraordinarily high. So we have this finding that China's 1st 5G smart city and smart highway is the epicenter of this epidemic and this finding that the epidemic only became rapidly more severe as the numbers of 5G antennae skyrocketed.
Are these findings coincidental or does 5G have some causal role in exacerbating the coronavirus epidemic? In order to answer that question, we need to determine whether the downstream effects of VGCC activation exacerbate the viral replication, the effects of viral infection, especially those that have roles in the spread of the virus and also the mechanism by which this coronavirus causes death. Accordingly, the replication of the viral RNA is stimulated by oxidative stress: J Mol Biol. 2008 Nov 28;383(5):1081-96. Variable oligomerization modes in coronavirus non-structural protein 9. Ponnusamy R, Moll R, Weimar T, Mesters JR, Hilgenfeld R.
Other aspects of viral replication including those involved in the spread of the virus are stimulated by increased intracellular calcium [Ca2+]i, oxidative stress, NF-kappaB elevation, inflammation and apoptosis, each of which are increased following EMF exposure. The first citation below shows an important role of VGCC activation in stimulating coronavirus infection.
Virology. 2020 Jan 2;539:38-48. Porcine deltacoronavirus (PDCoV) modulates calcium influx to favor viral replication. Bai D, et al.
J Virol. 2011 May;85(9):4234-45. Distinct severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-induced acute lung injury pathways in two different nonhuman primate species. Smits SL, et al.
Cell Calcium. 2018 Nov;75:30-41. NAADP-dependent Ca2+ signaling regulates Middle East respiratory syndrome-coronavirus pseudovirus translocation through the endolysosomal system. Gunaratne GS, et al.
J Virol. 2011 May;85(9):4234-45. Distinct severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-induced acute lung injury pathways in two different nonhuman primate species. Smits SL, et al.
Proteome Sci. 2011 Mar 8;9:11. Proteomic analysis of chicken embryonic trachea and kidney tissues after infection in ovo by avian infectious bronchitis coronavirus. Cao Z, et al.
Res Vet Sci. 2015 Jun;100:12-7. Serum biomarkers of oxidative stress in cats with feline infectious peritonitis. Tecles F, et al.
J Infect Dis. 2008 Mar 15;197(6):812-6. Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency enhances human coronavirus infection. Wu YH et al.
J Virol. 1998 Jun;72(6):4918-24. Transmissible gastroenteritis coronavirus induces programmed cell death in infected cells through a caspase-dependent pathway. Eleouet JF, et al.
The predominant cause of death from this coronavirus is pneumonia. Pneumonia is greatly exacerbated by each of those five downstream effects of VGCC activation, excessive intracellular calcium, oxidative stress, NF-kappaB elevation, inflammation and apoptosis. The first of the citations listed below shows that calcium channel blockers, the same type of drugs that block EMF effects, are useful in the treatment of pneumonia. This predicts that EMFs, acting via VGCC activation, will produce increasingly severe pneumonia and therefore 5G radiation as well as other types of EMFs may well increase pneumonia deaths.
Zheng et al. 2016 Preadmission Use of Calcium Channel Blockers and Outcomes After Hospitalization With Pneumonia: A Retrospective Propensity-Matched Cohort Study. Am J Ther. 2017 Jan/Feb;24(1):e30- e38.
Fang et al. 2017 Pneumolysin-Dependent Calpain Activation and Interleukin-1? Secretion in Macrophages Infected with Streptococcus pneumoniae. Infect Immun. 2017 Aug 18;85(9). pii: e00201-17.
Fettel et al. 2019 Sphingosine-1-phosphate (S1P) induces potent anti-inflammatory effects in vitro and in vivo by S1P receptor 4-mediated suppression of 5-lipoxygenase activity. FASEB J. 2019 Feb;33(2):1711- 1726.
Liu and Shi. 2019 Calcium-activated chloride channel regulator 1 (CLCA1): More than a regulator of chloride transport and mucus production. World Allergy Organ J. 2019 Nov 29;12(11):100077.
Sci Rep. 2018 Oct 18;8(1):15393. Surfactant protein D attenuates acute lung and kidney injuries in pneumonia-induced sepsis through modulating apoptosis, inflammation and NF-?B signaling. Du J, et al.
Curr Neurovasc Res. 2020 Jan 28. MicroRNA (miR)-429 promotes inflammatory injury by targeting kruppel-like factor 4 (KLF4) in neonatal pneumonia. Zhang L, et al.
Life Sci. 2019 Jul 1;228:189-197. Long noncoding RNA SNHG16 targets miR-146a-5p/CCL5 to regulate LPS-induced WI-38 cell apoptosis and inflammation in acute pneumonia. Zhou Z, et al.
These all argue that 5G radiation is likely to greatly exacerbate the spread of the coronavirus and to greatly increase the lethality of the infections produced by it. The good news is that it is likely that those of us that live in areas with no 5G radiation and who avoid other EMFs wherever possible will probably escape much of the impacts of this prospective global pandemic.
It is highly probable that one of the best things Wuhan can do to control the epidemic in the city is to turn off the 4G/5G system.
Captured Agencies and the Hijacking of the Science
And you might ask yourself, "Why haven't I heard about this problem?" or you might tell yourself that "Certainly the authorities have our best interests at heart when they make these kinds of decisions."
Well, in a recent book review 81 of the book Triumph of Doubt (by David Michaels, 2020), Kathleen Rest, Executive Director, Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), (February 14, 2020) outlines how deception is used to manufacture doubt and uncertainty in many industries' public relations playbooks:
• Attack the science. There are lots of tools in this toolbox: commission new "scientific" studies to reanalyze existing data with methodologies biased toward predetermined results; review the literature and risk assessments to question the weight of the evidence; publish these reviews and re-analyses in selected scientific journals; shop for and hire so-called "independent" experts to question the science; provide tasty and contrarian soundbites for the media and public consumption; and more.
• Create and deploy front groups with innocuous-sounding names to undermine science, influence public opinion, and gain access to policy makers while maintaining the illusion of independence.
• Harass and intimidate independent scientists whose research demonstrates or suggests harm. Or alternatively, curry favor with academic institutions and scientists by providing some form of financial support while also varnishing their public interest image.
• Overwhelm regulatory agencies with comments on proposed regulations.
• Use their outsized money, power, and access to influence actions/inactions of elected policymakers and agency officials. (Oh, and there's also that well-oiled revolving door. Just take a look at how many agency leaders and decision-makers in the Trump administration come straight from the very industries they are now supposed to regulate.)
Another tactic that I have noticed is that these people seem to use is to get their plants on a discussion list to make some completely off-the-wall statements so that they can get the media to cover this to try to make everyone involved look like complete whack jobs, which an unsuspecting public is quick to consume and believe. This is seemingly happening right now with this issue. Learn more about the EMF cover-up.
Certainly, how Western governments and corporations manipulate public opinion is different than how it might be done in China, since in the latter case, there is strict government control (e.g. Internet firewall) over what is permitted and not permitted to be accessed via the Internet, etc. Hence, they may not really have to use the above playbook and this may very well be the reason they have been able to move so quickly to implement this technology. But at what cost?
"Everything must be taken into account. If the fact will not fit the theory — let the theory go.... Real evidence is usually vague and unsatisfactory. It has to be examined — sifted." — Agatha Christie
As Agatha Christie says, "Everything must be taken into account." Ignoring — especially willfully ignoring — any very possible causal factors — especially EMF — in my humble opinion, is just not good science, if you can call that science at all.
According to Dr. Martin Pall, Ph.D.,
The failure of the "safety guidelines" to predict biological effects and therefore safety means that these are not safety guidelines. Consequently, any claims of safety made by the multi-trillion euro-telecommunications industry based on these "safety guidelines" are simply fraudulent.
These failures of the "safety guidelines" must be considered in terms of the principle that is at the core of the scientific method. That principle is that when we have a scientific theory and we test predictions of that theory and the theory predictions are shown to be false, then we must throw the theory out. It follows that when we have eight highly repeated findings each of which show that the "safety guidelines" do not predict biological effects and do not, therefore, predict safety, it is a scientific requirement that the "safety guidelines" be thrown out. The failure of ICNIRP, the European Commission and various regulatory agencies to throw out the "safety guidelines" clearly shows that their actions are both unscientific and anti-scientific. 65
"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant." — Harlan Ellison
Woman thinking
And anyone who would like some insight into how — what is perceived as the sacred cow of international health organizations — the W.H.O. has been unduly influenced by industry, they need look no further than Swedish oncologist and professor, Dr. Lennart Hardell's paper, "World Health Organization, radiofrequency radiation and health – a hard nut to crack (Review)." 82
What Can You Do to Protect Yourselves?
Well given that accordingly the EMF effects act via the activation of VGCCs with a resulting increase in calcium ions inside the cell stimulating nitric oxide synthase to produce more nitric oxide leading downstream to the creation of free radicals (aka reactive oxygen species), it is important to, first of all, limit EMF exposures as much as possible. As Oram Miller recommends,
Reduce use, increase distance, and favor hardwired connections whenever and wherever possible. You can put your cell phone in Airplane mode, making sure WiFi and Bluetooth are off while in Airplane mode, and do most every function on your cell phone on a different, hardwired device when inside your house. That includes talking, texting, emailing, audio and video streaming, and using various apps. 66 Learn more about Bluetooth, WiFi and cell phone radiation protection here.
Secondly, hire a Building Biology Certified Electromagnetic Radiation Specialist to help with the measurement and then reduction of EMFs in the home, for example, by shielding your home and sleeping area to block out health-damaging RF, eliminating any wiring errors in the home to reduce magnetic fields, and reducing sources of dirty electricity. Read about EMFs on wiring here.
Thirdly, I would say that implementing what I have dubbed "The Radio-protective Diet and Supplement Program™," is essential.
There are two main supplements that I have used over the years that have greatly reduced my own sensitivity to electromagnetic fields dramatically and these are (1) magnesium, as it acts as a natural VGCC blocker, in that it blocks calcium from entering the cell, and (2) L-lysine, an essential amino acid, which works to calm down the production of nitric oxide (N.O.), (whereas the amino acid arginine is needed by nitric oxide synthase to stimulate the production of N.O.). Learn more about Electrical sensitivity diagnosis and treatment here.
L-lysine has the added benefit in that it acts in a similar fashion to selective-serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) in that it binds with the serotonin receptors in the brain to increase serotonin levels. Taking both of these supplements before bed should also help you sleep better.
"The Radio-protective Diet and Supplement Program™," is essentially (1) immune system boosting, (2) anti-inflammatory, (3) detoxifying, and (4) free-radical quenching. Hence, it consists of foods and supplements that support these processes in the body. Here is an article on EMF Protection and the food you eat.
This would entail taking, for example, denatured organic whey powder to boost glutathione (the body's super antioxidant) levels, which not only quenches free radicals, but also helps with boosting the immune system and detoxification, and also targeted transfer factors which boost one's immune system by increasing natural killer cells; anti-inflammatories like ginger and turmeric; detoxifying foods like onions, garlic, and broccoli; and fruits and vegetables high in antioxidants; not to mention foods that replenish hormones and neurotransmitters lost from exposures to EMFs like serotonin, melatonin, dopamine, gamma amino butyric acid (GABA), and phenylethylamine (PEA) which include bananas (tryptophan), pineapple (serotonin), cashew nuts (serotonin), tart cherry juice (melatonin), sprouted rice milk (GABA), and chocolate (PEA).
Another supplement I find essential for boosting the immune system, stimulating detoxification, and healing leaky gut (and probably other leaky barriers) are humic minerals.
There have been a number of posts on social media websites recommending herbs and supplements that are supposed to be effective against the coronavirus. For example, Ty Bolinger lists a number of supplements and herbs one can take in an article he posted on his website, the Truth About Cancer, titled, "Coronavirus: 'The Good, the Bad, and the Answers.'" 83 And Doris Loh explains why taking Vitamin C will protect and enhance your immune system in two of her articles. 84 85 I know from previous research that both EMFs and viruses deplete Vitamin C reserves, so supplementing with it seems like a very good idea.
Finally, I would say that exposing yourself to beneficial EMFs through Earthing, and also using a PEMF machine. I personally use one that has for me, I feel, (1) stimulated the healing process, (2) reduced inflammation, and (3) boosted my immune system. If you are interested in this last solution, contact me at EMF Refugee.
Conclusion
China is a great country with an amazing populace who have made astounding advancements creating a very sophisticated modern country in the last ten years, surpassing many other modern countries in many ways. However, given the facts that
1. we have real data that shows indeed that wireless radiation impacts the immune system;
2. we have numerous patients outside of the 5G zone showing no or only mild symptoms,
3. there have recently been 10,000 5G antennas installed and turned on in Wuhan, not to mention 130,000 5G antennas installed throughout greater China;
4. there have recently been 5G systems installed in numerous hospitals in China, not to mention the new COVID-19 hospitals;
5. we are seeing higher numbers of COVID-19 infections in places like Hangzhou and Wenzhou, not to mention South Korea, etc. where they have also recently installed numerous 5G antennas; and
6. there has been no testing done to find out the biological implications of exposing life forms to this radiation;
we can conclude that the real problem here may very well in fact be with the 5G electromagnetic radiation weakening people's immune systems, not to mention possibly making the virus itself more virulent. And if this is true and if China does not change course, 5G might very well become its — and the rest of the world's Titanic — with the COVID-19 (and others like it) its icebergs.
Maybe this is what people really need to start worrying about and perhaps it is time for the Chinese government, as well as governments throughout the world to seriously investigate and address 5G possible health effects and put a halt to the premature rollout of 5G technology until they can prove that it is safe (which I doubt they can) and until, safer alternatives can be developed.
The government in Belgium never implemented it and there was talk of the government of Switzerland putting a halt on the 5G rollout, 87 but they now seem to be going ahead with it. 88 And it seems like, unless people wake up to this, China will certainly be following a similar path.
I am sorry to have to rain on your electromagnetic parade here, but it might actually very well be your 5G that is contributing to making everybody sick.
"The only people angry at you for speaking the Truth, are those living a lie. Keep on speaking it."
— Unknown
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident." — Arthur Schopenhauer
Many thanks to Paul Doyon for this guest post.
Corona and 5G
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZeK8CPA01o&fbclid=IwAR3TqKckr-KA3YZC6SAr2AE-bndHMPc16n91Tf2SkSPMRQFmLzKw8fpDCwY[/yt]
Bought 6 huge cans of black beans at dollar store. Not bad. Note to self: check out rice and bean recipes.
James et al's concern isn't hysteria. It's good ol fashion common sense.
I've heard through the grapevine there's a patient in my neck of the woods diagnosed with coronavirus, in very serious condition, but not in news. Not naming exact location, or any identifying features.
PS Kreutz. Viruses DO cause disease. Not always, but many are pathogenic. I did my undergrad in microbiology with a heavy emphasis on virology. Just pick your viral pandemic. Case in point, Ebola. And google image bacteriophage. Those suckers are real and deadly. Had my former high school students do art assignment drawing/coloring it. They attach themselves strategically in the outer surface of cell membranes and inject their poison through a needle thrust inward by a piston. The piston is actually made up of molecules that fit neatly together like jigsaw pieces.
Yessir.
QuoteWOW! This is big. I mean, really big:
Yeah, this is the main concern: economic. People are going to lose their jobs and we'll probably get an official recession (two down quarters). Also, what happens if everyone at your local power plant gets the virus? Sure, they all recover a week later, but what do you do during that week?
QuoteViruses DO cause disease.
Chicken pox?
USA: 158. 11 dead. Looks like we'll definitely take out 200 by Sunday.
Checked out flu estimates: 24 million per year with 18,000 deaths in the U.S., vast majority elderly or pre-existing condition.
Europe is going exponential. Italy over 3,000. Switzerland has joined the party. UK shooting up.
I think the base strategy is to have those Ensure/Boost drinks handy and some hearty stew style cans of soup. Remembering back when I had the flu, you get knocked on your arse for a few days. During that time it will be handy to open up a Boost. Once you recover enough, and want something more solid, then it will be handy to open up some soup and put it in a bowl.
You can prep beyond that in case of quarantine.
Quote from: james03 on March 04, 2020, 06:02:40 PM
QuoteViruses DO cause disease.
Chicken pox?
That and its ugly cousin shingles, re-emerged chicken pox later in life. Had to observe contact precautions with a shingles patient recently. The virus spreads easily. That or according to the counter-argument, these terribly painful rashes are simply the result of debilitated health. Not caused (in part) by a benign microscopic particle. ::)
Chris,
I think you are in the medical profession. Have you all been alerted to be more cautious?
Quote from: james03 on March 04, 2020, 09:12:43 PM
Chris,
I think you are in the medical profession. Have you all been alerted to be more cautious?
Yes...no alerts yet. I casually initiated a couple conversations about it with my immediate manager and they thought the situation is being blown out of proportion. But, I expect soon enough higher ups will give us some kind of protocol. The severely debilitated in nursing homes--especially those understaffed and/or mismanaged--are sitting ducks. As for myself I religiously (figuratively and literally) wash my hands with soap and water before and after each patient. And I'm already planning my strategy when this thing spreads here, of how to prevent spreading when I go from home into work, then leave work for home. Maybe take my scrubs to work and shower there/change clothes when coming home.
I can keep us posted here on generalities of the medical situation as I encounter it.
https://youtu.be/gmqgGwT6bw0
Been following these videos. In this one he talks about vitamin D.
Looks like James was not extreme enough in his prognostications. The USA blew through 200. Now 12 deaths. No need reporting European numbers, they are in exponential growth with notable cases in Germany, Netherlands, France and now UK. Italy is of note due to their high death rate, around 10% factoring in lag. South Korea has a very low death rate.
A week from now we'll easily be above 500 cases in the U.S. Using a simple exponential model, we'll be at 1 million cases by end of April with 50,000 dead using a 5% mortality. Vast majority the old and sick dying. The epidemic will basically be over by end of May. Note this assumes no social separation and quarantines.
Prepping Recap:
Baseline: Boost/ Ensure drinks. Hearty stew canned soups. Pedolyte type electrolyte drink would come in handy also. Ibuprofen for fever control.
Quarantine prep: More soup. Beans. Large tubs of oatmeal. Toilet paper. If you have freezer space, throw in some large roasts. You could also pick up some frozen chickens. Try to buy what you will eat in case there is no quarantine. Beans and oatmeal are cheap, so you can make an exception for those.
Build up cash at the house. A couple hundred bucks should be sufficient.
Note: The U.S. is a net food exporter, so even if you see some food shortages due to panic buying, it will get restocked. I'm starting to see news reports of panic buying. I think the big problem will be iboprofin since the building block for it is made in China.
Health prep recap:
1. Now's a good time to go Atkins.
2. Vitamin stack that may do good: bio available zinc (Zicam/Cold eez), Chelated magnesium or magnesium glycinate, Vitamin D3 (2000 iu good dose), Vitamin C, Potassium, mixed vitamin K, and selenium. Don't mega dose, follow the label.
3. Snack on a bunch of vegetables and berries.
Can't hurt you, might boost your immune system and/or build up your stores in case you get sick.
Seattle requesting a shutdown of businesses (voluntary now). Big Cali tech firms starting work at home programs. Things getting canceled. If you haven't prepped, I think its time to get prepped. Expect the pace to pick up now. If you are on the west coast, or in a big city, go shopping soon. Tonight if possible.
Quote from: james03 on March 05, 2020, 05:28:53 PM
The epidemic will basically be over by end of May. Note this assumes no social separation and quarantines.
Why do you think it would be over by May?
Because we'll run out of people to get sick. This is based off of a simple exponential model. The best I can say about the prediction is it's rough ball park.
Prepping addendum:
Keep in a state of sanctified grace. You may have limited access to confession for a while if this goes down. Confess every 2-3 weeks until it does.
Tune into SSPX St Mary's Internet Radio for spiritual/moral support.
Fill your liquor bar. Drinking spirits—in moderation—during stressful periods is the Catholic way. Yessir.
Plus half gallon of cheap vodka is $12.99. Good for fellowship and barter.
Make a list of people you know most at risk. Get them those immune boosting supplements. Especially
the elderly with COPD, kidney failure, uncontrolled diabetes, cancer, etc.
Much better than contributions to the diocesan development fund, ie diocesan collection plate.
Yeah I was definitely too tame in my prognostications. USA at 330 with 17 deaths. So I'm going with 1,000 cases a week from Sunday.
Went shopping yesterday. Hand sanitizer is gone. Not a big deal soap and water are better. In fly over country besides that there aren't any shortages. Elsewhere in the US panic buying is picking up. I saw that normal stocks of certain things were lower than normal. Soup looks like a big item. Ibuprofin (Motrin/Advil) was low but available. Beans on the low side.
I picked up some turkey and roast and stuck it in the freezer. Also a case of generic Boost drink.
Find the Lisa Specht thread on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/LizSpecht/status/1236095180459003909
^
That's what I've been warning about here for weeks. It was obvious back in late January, a very tiny tiny number of Westerners cared then. Most still do not care now. Oh well. Such is the complacency of the empire.
Edit:
https://sauconsource.com/2020/03/06/panic-buying-coronavirus-fear-hits-grocery-store-hard/
Panic buying around Philly for the gentleman who thought I was a bot or maybe a commie plant.
Milan Region quarantined
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51787238
16 million people quarantined for a month.
Those "panic buyers" the media keeps complaining about don't look so crazy now.
First quarantine announced on a neighborhood in California. I hope they stocked up.
Looks like the US will be at 500 cases by Sunday. Currently 19 deaths reported.
Italy pushing 6000 cases.
Our cases went from 1 to 22 in a week.
Due to get my laying hens next Saturday so hopefully that pans out then we're good here.
My neighbour who is European called up last night and I insisted on feeding him a continental fry up because he has been storing up food and gadgets for a long time now and he is good contact to have. Is of the same mindset although a staunch atheist. He has 'legal weapons' stored, bow and arrow, slingshot and fire extinguishers!! We have very strict gun laws here so gun ownership is low. He's watching for when the economy goes belly up and people lose their minds in anarchy.
Local hospital is rushing patients through and blocking entrance to wards within. Another neighbour had his daughter there for pain in her side and she had a scan. Normally in AE dept its an all day wait for blood or scan results, we have a chronic healthcare system. She got her results in half an hour!! so how come they can get their shxt together when they want to ....makes me mad. One dr intimated that there was a possibility of a virus case and the hospital were preparing for a shut down. Local college is closing down and organising lecturers to teach online.
Does anyone else get hungry reading Diaduit's posts? Her family would be the best neighbors to have.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 07, 2020, 08:09:24 PM
Milan Region quarantined
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51787238
16 million people quarantined for a month.
Those "panic buyers" the media keeps complaining about don't look so crazy now.
You mean the panic buyers the media deliberately created through photo ops of empty store shelves?
Quote from: diaduit on March 08, 2020, 02:25:00 AM
Our cases went from 1 to 22 in a week.
It's called testing more people.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 07, 2020, 08:09:24 PM
Milan Region quarantined
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51787238
16 million people quarantined for a month.
Those "panic buyers" the media keeps complaining about don't look so crazy now.
Let's see Italian police actually enforce a quarantine of 16 million people.
Quote from: christulsa on March 04, 2020, 04:06:51 PM
PS Kreutz. Viruses DO cause disease. Not always, but many are pathogenic.
This has never been proved.
QuoteI did my undergrad in microbiology with a heavy emphasis on virology.
And?
QuoteJust pick your viral pandemic. Case in point, Ebola.
Like polio caused by DDT? Or the construct of "AIDS" who original form was caused by excessive abuse of antibiotics and poppers? "Viruses", more accurately the chemical basis for their postulated existence, are a consequence, not a cause, of diseases.
QuoteAnd google image bacteriophage.
What am I supposed to be seeing here? A handful images of "virus like particles" obtained by special preparation from electron microscopy amidst hundreds of artistic impressions and fakery?
QuoteThose suckers are real and deadly.
Never been proved.
I'll ask again of those who insist: show me someone isolating "coronavirus" from an infected person, placing that virus in a healthy person, and making him sick. You can stop at step one, because it hasn't ever been done.
Coronavirus: the definition of "cases" is producing a new level of illusion
by Jon Rappoport
March 5, 2020
Buckle up. We're not riding on a smooth superhighway. These roads are extremely bumpy and rough.
Public health agencies and the press are casting out a blizzard of confusing terms:
presumptive cases, infected persons, asymptomatic persons, confirmed cases, containment measures, persons connected to persons who are infected...
It is my understanding that, now, the CDC is lumping together presumptive cases and confirmed cases, and calling them: CASES.
Certainly, that strategy would immediately multiply the total number of CASES and also multiply fear among the uninformed population.
A presumptive case would be a person who has not been tested for the coronavirus; or he has been tested, but the results are not yet in.
Why is he a presumptive case in the first place? There could be several reasons. He has ordinary flu-like symptoms, and his doctor suspects he might be infected by the coronavirus, for no particular reason. He might have come in contact with a person who has been diagnosed as an epidemic case. He might have recently traveled to China—and has or doesn't have flu-like symptoms. Maybe he has a slight cough...
You can see that "presumptive" is a quite shaky status. It means next to nothing. Nevertheless, in order to "contain the spread of the virus," he is pinned with that label—and added to the total of CASES.
The press, looking for the next piece of click-bait, sees that, in a particular state or city, there are "25 CASES." A reporter writes an article. The public is led to sense that, in that locale, a "spread" is occurring. No distinction is made between confirmed case and presumptive case.
Suppose, in a nursing home, where a hundred residents have all sorts of long-term health problems—including flu-like symptoms and respiratory difficulties—two people have been labeled "presumptive cases," because they were visited by a person who recently returned from China. Now, there is an opportunity to label more residents of the nursing home "presumptive," because they're in daily contact with the two "presumptive residents." Result? There are 13 "presumptive cases," and when the press discovers this, they characterize the 13 as CASES.
But it gets a lot worse than that. As I've been detailing in these pages, the basic test for the coronavirus is called the PCR. A positive result is taken to mean the patient "has the virus." He is now a confirmed case. However, the PCR has many problems.
The procedure itself is tricky, and unless done perfectly, with great care to avoid contamination, the result is useless. But even when the test is perfect, it says nothing about whether the patient is ill or will ever become ill. Why? Because the PCR never comes to a valid conclusion about how much virus is in the patient's body actively replicating. And in order to start talking about illness and disease, millions and millions of virus must be at work replicating inside the patient.
Going even further down the rabbit hole, how was the PCR test for the coronavirus developed in the first place? We seem to have an answer from the CDC, offered up to reporters in a February 28 press briefing. A Dr. Messonnier, representing the CDC, said this in reply to a question:
"...please remember that our laboratories developed this [PCR] test kit before there were US cases. We developed it based on the posted genetic sequencing, and it was this test kit that allowed us, to identify the first cases in the United States."
What does this mean? It seems to means that the CDC accepted the genetic sequence of the "new virus" without having an actual isolated specimen of the virus itself. Is that a problem?
If the police receive a description of a car wreck on a local highway (the sequence), should they travel to the scene and actually look at the wreck (obtain an isolated specimen of the virus)? Should they decide who was at fault (diagnose the first US cases) without investigating (having the actual virus itself in their possession)?
Researchers claiming they've laid out the genetic sequence of a virus, and passing the information along to colleagues, is not what you would call proof of anything. Those original researchers could have sequenced another virus. They could have made mistakes. Did THEY ever have an isolated specimen of the virus?
Developing and using a diagnostic PCR test on humans, and then telling them whether they are "victims of the epidemic," based on received genetic sequences alone, is more than irresponsible. It's entirely reckless.
If you've come this far in the article, and you're beginning to feel that the whole system of diagnosing people with THE VIRUS is madness, I would agree with you.
Categories of cases are being deceptively juggled and merged, in order to inflate numbers.
The "gold standard" diagnostic test is fraught with difficulties, and is inherently useless.
And lurking behind all this is the question: who discovered the coronavirus in the first place, and did they ever have an actual specimen of it, a biological reality; or, working from indirect "markers," were THEY the PRESUMPTIVES, blithely assuming their genetic sequences pointed to an entity that actually exists?
If you think a fraud on this level has never occurred before, read my piece on the 2009 Swine Flu "epidemic," and consider its potential implications.
Does anyone have a quote on Catholic teaching in regards to Mass attendance during pandemics? Now i'll be going to mass regardless but if one of mine had suspected coronavirus I would keep them at home. We Irish are too easy with the 'it'll be grand' attitude and I can guarantee that there will be families showing up with sick family members despite a quarantine in place.
I'm not talking about staying away without good reason but what is the Churches stance on this. My parish has just sent out a notice on Whats app about a party in the hall after mass on St Patricks day. Am I over reacting?? Kreuz don't bother replying :)
Quote from: King Wenceslas on January 24, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
99% chance this is just being hyped by the 24/7 news feed. Too much fear porn and not enough facts.
It's evident now it's more than that. It's the most obvious deliberate psyop.
Let's go through this again, shall we?
1. If they detect the presence of a particular genetic material in your blood, you've been "infected" with "coronavirus".
2. If you have some of a range of common disease symptoms and test positive, "coronavirus" made you ill.
3. If you're frail and sick and happen to be "infected" with "coronavirus", "coronavirus" killed you.
4. By these criteria, over the course of several months some 3,000 people out of 7.7 billion have been killed by "coronavirus".
5. According to government and media, the world is all but ending. Roll in the billions and roll out the vaccine.
6. I'm not a brain dead idiot, so I don't believe this is a deadly "pandemic".
KR,
You focus too much on the virus aspect of it. Who cares if it is a virus, bacteria, ill winds, bad humors, demons or what have you. The salient point is whether or not something now is inducing pneumonia en masse across the planet.
What is your explanation for the killer pneumonia in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess, northern Italy or Iran? In Wuhan thousands died and the hospitals were swamped with people needing forced oxygen in the ICU. The Diamond Princess is up to 7 deaths now and 30+ in ICU. Iran and Italy have hundreds of sudden deaths in small regions.
Hopefully your explanation will not be along the lines of: there was an industrial accident in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess ran out of raw milk and so people's respiratory systems collapsed, Iranians were gassed by the Jews and the Italians ate their toxic wheat pasta so quickly they literally inhaled it right into their lungs and caused ARDS across the village.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 08, 2020, 05:58:18 AM
In Wuhan thousands died and the hospitals were swamped with people needing forced oxygen in the ICU.
So we've been told. We were also told that they miraculously built a fully equipped hospital in two weeks. This claim being made with nothing but a few pictures of heavy equipment at a construction site all ready cleared and leveled. Color me dubious.
Speaking of Wuhan....are people still dying there? It seems that most of the media craze is now focused on Europe.
The situation in Italy as described by one Rorate contributor:
https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=23505.0
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 08, 2020, 05:58:18 AM
Hopefully your explanation will not be along the lines of: there was an industrial accident in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess ran out of raw milk and so people's respiratory systems collapsed, Iranians were gassed by the Jews and the Italians ate their toxic wheat pasta so quickly they literally inhaled it right into their lungs and caused ARDS across the village.
This mad me literally laugh out loud.
KR, Davis and everybody else. I have posted a lot about 5G and its negative effects. Just look at the official map and the number of cases in the first 4 countries on the list. China, S. Korea, Italy and Iran. All of them have rolled out 5G and it is up and running in many cities. 5G is known to cause flue like symptoms and oxygen depletion. Plus that cruise ship called Diamond or something had operational satellite 5G. Go figure.
You may look at it with skepticism and even laugh at me but facts are facts. 60Ghz mmWave 5G is dangerous and no official studies have been done to prove its safety. Doctors and doctors all over the world were alarming and asking their governments to put a stop to it. No one listened
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 08, 2020, 05:58:18 AM
The salient point is whether or not something now is inducing pneumonia en masse across the planet.
I don't know that anything out-of-the-ordinary is actually happening across the planet.
QuoteWhat is your explanation for the killer pneumonia in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess, northern Italy or Iran? In Wuhan thousands died and the hospitals were swamped with people needing forced oxygen in the ICU. The Diamond Princess is up to 7 deaths now and 30+ in ICU.
I don't have one. Unlike the purveyors of the narrative you swallow hook, line and sinker, I'm not pulling "explanations" out my ass with no empirical basis and proof of hypothesis.
QuoteIran and Italy have hundreds of sudden deaths in small regions.
I don't know this.
QuoteHopefully your explanation will not be along the lines of: there was an industrial accident in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess ran out of raw milk and so people's respiratory systems collapsed, Iranians were gassed by the Jews and the Italians ate their toxic wheat pasta so quickly they literally inhaled it right into their lungs and caused ARDS across the village.
Which would be no more ridiculous and unfounded speculation than blaming an infectious microscopic pseudo-organism which has never been shown to exist or cause disease.
Stop dumping your fallacious "explain it or else" arguments on me.
Quote from: abc123 on March 08, 2020, 08:23:07 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 08, 2020, 05:58:18 AM
In Wuhan thousands died and the hospitals were swamped with people needing forced oxygen in the ICU.
So we've been told. We were also told that they miraculously built a fully equipped hospital in two weeks. This claim being made with nothing but a few pictures of heavy equipment at a construction site all ready cleared and leveled. Color me dubious.
At least one other person
gets it.
QuoteSpeaking of Wuhan....are people still dying there? It seems that most of the media craze is now focused on Europe.
A friend who just returned to Hong Kong has been told to work from home for a couple of weeks because she came from London. Go figure.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 08, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
The situation in Italy as described by one Rorate contributor:
https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=23505.0
This is the real danger, the real threat, the real possibility of horror, and it's being deliberately orchestrated by government and media, which is all the more worrying.
WHY ARE COUNTRIES BEING SHUT DOWN AND ECONOMIES WRECKED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAS, EVEN IF THE NARRATIVE IS TRUE, KILLED A MERE 3,000 PEOPLE, BY ALL REPORTS OLD WEAK OR ALREADY DYING, OUT OF 7 BILLION HUMAN BEINGS IN SEVERAL MONTHS?
This is not ebola. This is not some super deadly disease. The economic damage done by the hysteria being promulgated by the establishment and measures undertaken by government is greater than anything that could be caused by millions getting sick over a few months from a glorified flu.
It's absurd.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 08, 2020, 12:38:08 PM
KR, Davis and everybody else. I have posted a lot about 5G and its negative effects. Just look at the official map and the number of cases in the first 4 countries on the list. China, S. Korea, Italy and Iran. All of them have rolled out 5G and it is up and running in many cities. 5G is known to cause flue like symptoms and oxygen depletion. Plus that cruise ship called Diamond or something had operational satellite 5G. Go figure.
You may look at it with skepticism and even laugh at me but facts are facts. 60Ghz mmWave 5G is dangerous and no official studies have been done to prove its safety. Doctors and doctors all over the world were alarming and asking their governments to put a stop to it. No one listened
Let it be noted that the claims of flu symptoms and respiratory issues linked to 5G predate the coronavirus brouhaha. There's no doubt this stuff is toxic to biological organisms.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/08/leaked-coronavirus-plan-to-quarantine-16m-sparks-chaos-in-italy (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/08/leaked-coronavirus-plan-to-quarantine-16m-sparks-chaos-in-italy)
This is what happens when you try to quarantine 16m people. Unless you go to the lengths of Stalin, Hitler and Mao. Is Italy a test subject? We'll see how far they are going to go in playing their game this time around.
abc123,
Here is a timelapse of the construction of one of the hospitals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VvV10S4QSw
You can also view videos online of water leaking from its roof, etc. Also videos of their rapidly constructed quarantine facilities as well.
[by the way, the US army can construct tent hospitals in no time at all, is it really that hard to imagine that a prefab building can be assembled and had its use modified to be a hospital by merely adding beds and hospital equipment? Looking at photos of the interior the construction materials are the same prefab walls & ceilings I've seen across China a hundred times]
I have lived in China for the past 11 years so I've developed a decent ability to figure out what is bogus in China and what is real. This one is very much real as it fits precisely with what the Chinese always do and how they see themselves - China is always about being huge, massive, being able to do giant scale works in short time. Never, though, is quality of consideration. The culture glories in doing big things and making big money. There are many videos online of them doing similar such things (building skyscrapers in days, railways overnight, relocating train stations, etc). Its what the Chinese do.
As I've detailed in earlier posts in this thread (and will not repeat again), everything they've done indicates that they determined that this was a serious threat to their society. I've not seen a single person with lengthy China experience doubting this is real. The doubters are those whom likely have never even stepped foot in China let alone spent years living and working with them in their system & their culture.
Let's imagine the Wuhan disaster was an industrial accident. The Chinese would cover this up in ways that would dumbfound us. I remember years back when they had a terrible high speed train collision and within a mere few hours they literally were burying the train carriages under a mountain of dirt (with people still inside, of course) to physically try to hide the accident.
What they've done strongly indicates that the people with the most inside knowledge determined that this (whatever it is) is such a dangerous threat to their society that they had to go against what they are wont to do.
KR,
That is fine, you don't know what it is, neither do I. In your judgement you have determined this (if it is anything) to not be a threat to yourself or anyone else. In our judgement we have. We do not call you a "brain dead idiot" and would appreciate the extension of such to us as well. For someone who has had a personal encounter with Jesus, I would have expected a greater change in character. But then again I never knew you before your encounter, so perhaps your anger and pride were even more ferocious back then.
Edit:
QuoteThis is what happens when you try to quarantine 16m people.
China quarantined hundreds of millions and their population did not riot. South Koreans were lining up peacefully to buy their goods. Macanese, Singaporeans and Taiwanese similarly as well. Maybe this has less to do with quarantining people (in general) and more to do with the cohesiveness (or lack thereof) of those being quarantined.
The "hospital" in China was never a hospital. Where do you get the staff or supplies? It's a death camp. You bring people there to die. Then at night the trucks show up to carryout the dead bodies to the incinerators.
But if you look at all the posts here, the theme was always we will have to wait until this gets out into Western countries before we can see if this is real, because everyone here was cautious about the Chinese data. In Italy, we are getting good data.
We are now getting data in the U.S. Now over 500 cases and 22 deaths. It appears this is a flu like disease. Most healthy people will be in bed for a week and recover after 2 weeks. The problem is economic disruption and supply chain problems. The U.S. will be over 1500 cases by next Sunday and over 5000 cases the following Sunday. Then we start to look like Italy. Major disruption to our economy.
Just saw ths chart with statistics in 11 countries. It's all very sad and tragic and it appears to be getting worse fast. We have to pray much. Source: https://www.businessinsider.in/science/news/one-chart-shows-11-countries-current-coronavirus-death-rates-based-on-the-known-number-of-cases-and-deaths/articleshow/74520800.cms
(https://static-ssl.businessinsider.com/image/5e62892ffee23d347c732e45-1667/covid-19%20death%20rate%20countries%20with%20deaths%20and%20more%20than%20100%20cases.png)
QuoteThe "hospital" in China was never a hospital. Where do you get the staff or supplies? It's a death camp. You bring people there to die. Then at night the trucks show up to carryout the dead bodies to the incinerators.
Where is the evidence that these are "death camps"?
There is plenty of news in China about thousands of doctors and nurses being sent to Wuhan from every province across China. You do not think a nation of 1.3 billion that is relocating thousands of medical staff from every province can staff this little hospital? They also manufacture all of the medical equipment that the world uses, again, how hard is it for them to buy the inventory from the copious factories that dot their landscape?
The satellite images of sulfur can be cremation & burning of medical waste and we have zero evidence that are somehow indicators that these are purposeful death camps.
Bought selenium and zinc with our resupply of supplements.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 08, 2020, 12:38:08 PM
KR, Davis and everybody else. I have posted a lot about 5G and its negative effects. Just look at the official map and the number of cases in the first 4 countries on the list. China, S. Korea, Italy and Iran. All of them have rolled out 5G and it is up and running in many cities. 5G is known to cause flue like symptoms and oxygen depletion. Plus that cruise ship called Diamond or something had operational satellite 5G. Go figure.
You may look at it with skepticism and even laugh at me but facts are facts. 60Ghz mmWave 5G is dangerous and no official studies have been done to prove its safety. Doctors and doctors all over the world were alarming and asking their governments to put a stop to it. No one listened
The stupid Trudeau Liberals just announced that we will be getting a 25 % cut in our cell phone bills. Because we are getting 5G. It's supposed to be rolled out in Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. Good places to avoid.
Quote from: diaduit on March 08, 2020, 03:34:49 AM
Does anyone have a quote on Catholic teaching in regards to Mass attendance during pandemics? Now i'll be going to mass regardless but if one of mine had suspected coronavirus I would keep them at home. We Irish are too easy with the 'it'll be grand' attitude and I can guarantee that there will be families showing up with sick family members despite a quarantine in place.
I'm not talking about staying away without good reason but what is the Churches stance on this. My parish has just sent out a notice on Whats app about a party in the hall after mass on St Patricks day. Am I over reacting?? Kreuz don't bother replying :)
In the sermon today our priest said that if he got the corona virus he wouldn't expect anyone to come to Mass. In fact he said if he does to stay at home and say a Spiritual Communion until it's over. And he said don't come to Mass if you are sick. He says expect the worst; he thinks it will be around. He is prepping himself.
The news today said two people in a nursing home in Vancouver got the corona virus from a health care worker. She works two jobs; one in a hospital, the other in the nursing home. Sheesh.
A guy came home from Las Vegas with the corona virus. He traveled on the Toronto subway for three days while he had it. I don't know if he knew or not.
A student at McGill tried to do his exams privately because he feared that he might spread the corona virus. His father came home with it from Iran. McGill said no go. In the same news report an official said they are suppose to self quarantine away from their family. In another news report the same day a different official said to self quarantine with the family but wear a mask and gloves so the rest of the family doesn't get it. These "officials" need to get their act together. It doesn't sound like self quarantine is a good idea.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 08, 2020, 05:58:18 AM
KR,
You focus too much on the virus aspect of it. Who cares if it is a virus, bacteria, ill winds, bad humors, demons or what have you. The salient point is whether or not something now is inducing pneumonia en masse across the planet.
What is your explanation for the killer pneumonia in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess, northern Italy or Iran? In Wuhan thousands died and the hospitals were swamped with people needing forced oxygen in the ICU. The Diamond Princess is up to 7 deaths now and 30+ in ICU. Iran and Italy have hundreds of sudden deaths in small regions.
Hopefully your explanation will not be along the lines of: there was an industrial accident in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess ran out of raw milk and so people's respiratory systems collapsed, Iranians were gassed by the Jews and the Italians ate their toxic wheat pasta so quickly they literally inhaled it right into their lungs and caused ARDS across the village.
During one of his episodes of cosmic consciousness (which are triggered whenever he calls enough people stupid online) it was personally revealed to him that insufficiently rotten meat combined with the culinary use of vinegar is responsible.
Does this look like a properly equipped and staffed "hospital" to you?
(https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Wuhan-coronavirus-hospital-GettyImages-1198660830.jpg?resize=800,533&quality=90)
"More than 100,000 people have been diagnosed with the coronavirus disease globally, according to Johns Hopkins University - with at least 3,015 deaths in China and 267 fatalities in other parts of the globe, most of them in Italy and Iran.
At least 1,200 of the new infections are in Iran in just the past 24 hours, the country's biggest jump since the outbreak began. Iran's health ministry on Friday noted that 124 people have died."
From: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/coronavirus-death-toll-rises-12-latest-updates-200305231909069.html
Quote from: james03 on March 08, 2020, 11:40:22 PM
Does this look like a properly equipped and staffed "hospital" to you?
(https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Wuhan-coronavirus-hospital-GettyImages-1198660830.jpg?resize=800,533&quality=90)
No. It does not look significantly different from the WWI field hospitals and private (informal) hospitals occasionally set up in the large homes of generous people and other large vacated locations available publicly and privately (but never originally designed as hospitals, nor equipped with the means to care for badly wounded soldiers in need of major and minor surgery, etc. This basically looks like a large dormitory or disaster shelter, hastily put together. Maybe they mean or meant to add 21st century equipment later, but it doesn't look like it from the layout and spacing.
Quite the amateur and hasty response to an epidemic needing an environment to meet it.
Quote from: Graham on March 08, 2020, 10:45:15 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 08, 2020, 05:58:18 AM
KR,
You focus too much on the virus aspect of it. Who cares if it is a virus, bacteria, ill winds, bad humors, demons or what have you. The salient point is whether or not something now is inducing pneumonia en masse across the planet.
What is your explanation for the killer pneumonia in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess, northern Italy or Iran? In Wuhan thousands died and the hospitals were swamped with people needing forced oxygen in the ICU. The Diamond Princess is up to 7 deaths now and 30+ in ICU. Iran and Italy have hundreds of sudden deaths in small regions.
Hopefully your explanation will not be along the lines of: there was an industrial accident in Wuhan, the Diamond Princess ran out of raw milk and so people's respiratory systems collapsed, Iranians were gassed by the Jews and the Italians ate their toxic wheat pasta so quickly they literally inhaled it right into their lungs and caused ARDS across the village.
During one of his episodes of cosmic consciousness (which are triggered whenever he calls enough people stupid online) it was personally revealed to him that insufficiently rotten meat combined with the culinary use of vinegar is responsible.
Show me an isolated coronavirus or shut up.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 08, 2020, 07:50:15 PMWe do not call you a "brain dead idiot" and would appreciate the extension of such to us as well.
I repeat:
1. If they detect the presence of a particular genetic material in your blood, you've been "infected" with "coronavirus".
2. If you have some of a range of common disease symptoms and test positive, "coronavirus" made you ill.
3. If you're frail and sick and happen to be "infected" with "coronavirus", "coronavirus" killed you.
4. By these criteria, over the course of several months some 3,000 people out of 7.7 billion have been killed by "coronavirus".
5. According to government and media, the world is all but ending. Roll in the billions and roll out the vaccine.
6. I'm not a brain dead idiot, so I don't believe this is a deadly "pandemic".
Now stop lying about what I said.
QuoteFor someone who has had a personal encounter with Jesus, I would have expected a greater change in character.
I'd rather be what I am than dishonest, patronising , and passive aggressive.
QuoteBut then again I never knew you before your encounter, so perhaps your anger and pride were even more ferocious back then.
Ahh, I see. You get to be right all the time about this, but if I have an opinion, I'm "proud".
QuoteQuoteThis is what happens when you try to quarantine 16m people.
China quarantined hundreds of millions and their population did not riot.
Yes, after 80 years of Maoism and a government that will shoot to kill.
Quote from: Xavier on March 08, 2020, 08:09:12 PM
Just saw ths chart with statistics in 11 countries. It's all very sad and tragic and it appears to be getting worse fast. We have to pray much. Source: https://www.businessinsider.in/science/news/one-chart-shows-11-countries-current-coronavirus-death-rates-based-on-the-known-number-of-cases-and-deaths/articleshow/74520800.cms
(https://static-ssl.businessinsider.com/image/5e62892ffee23d347c732e45-1667/covid-19%20death%20rate%20countries%20with%20deaths%20and%20more%20than%20100%20cases.png)
These data are meaningless because there is no way to know these people all died of "coronavirus". "Known cases"? Know how, might I ask? People who have some of a set of symptoms in common with various other diseases and get a positive result on a PCR test? You think that actually tells one something?
https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/03/2-new-coronavirus-cases-confirmed-in-nj-now-6-in-total-everything-we-know.html
The top story locally this AM. Note that 6 "cases" in a population of 10 million is called an "outbreak."
Also note that 2 of these cases are "presumed positives." The language throughout along with the picture of them fumigating a bus are designed to induce panic despite the facts.
This is a media driven experiment to see how the sheep respond to being fed BS under the guise of factual journalism.
Elon Musk Says Panic About Coronavirus, Which Has Killed Over 3,400, Is "Dumb"
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/elon-musk-says-panic-about-coronavirus-which-has-killed-over-3400-people-dumb?fbclid=IwAR3c9HgEQ2EOhE24oX3kLwTMPmf75im4etdFOr0p-_qBPRBuA0-uHemkINw (https://www.zerohedge.com/health/elon-musk-says-panic-about-coronavirus-which-has-killed-over-3400-people-dumb?fbclid=IwAR3c9HgEQ2EOhE24oX3kLwTMPmf75im4etdFOr0p-_qBPRBuA0-uHemkINw)
Deaths from pneumonia in China: 2.8 million to 17 million per year from 1985 to 2008.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011721 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011721)
Idiots.
PCR tests cannot tell one anything about "viral load". But a high "viral load" is, supposedly, necessary for sickness to occur. Therefore, even under the viral theory of disease, they cannot establish a casual relationship between the virus and sickness in a patient. The inventor of PCR himself says so!
2018 How a 'Toxic Cocktail' Is Posing a Troubling Health Risk in China's Cities
https://e360.yale.edu/features/how-a-toxic-cocktail-is-posing-a-troubling-health-risk-in-chinese-cities (https://e360.yale.edu/features/how-a-toxic-cocktail-is-posing-a-troubling-health-risk-in-chinese-cities)
(https://e360.yale.edu/assets/site/_1260xAUTO_stretch_center-center/Getty_WuhanAirPollution_2009_web.jpg)
Wuhan, seen here covered in smog in 2009, is one of the Chinese cities found to regularly have dangerous levels of multiple air contaminants. STR/AFP/GETTY IMAGES
QuoteThree other cities listed as regularly suffering dangerous levels of four or five of the pollutants are Jining, also in Shandong, Wuhan in Hubei province, and Jiayuguan and Jinchang in Gansu. None of the seven appear in the lists of the ten most polluted Chinese cities published by the WHO or Chinese environment ministry.
How hazardous are these hidden cocktails of pollution?
All the five major pollutants in smogs – SO2, NOx, ozone, PM10 and PM2.5 — are known to be linked individually to increased risk of strokes, heart disease, lung cancer and asthma, and to rising hospital admissions and death rates during smogs. What is disturbing is that there is growing evidence of synergistic effects between these different pollutants that make the whole worse than the sum of the parts. "The disease burden will be underestimated" by conventional measures, say the authors of the study in the WHO bulletin.
2012 China's smog city: What Wuhan looks like with 20 times the U.S. dust limit
https://grist.org/cities/chinas-smog-city-what-wuhan-looks-like-with-20-times-the-u-s-dust-limit/ (https://grist.org/cities/chinas-smog-city-what-wuhan-looks-like-with-20-times-the-u-s-dust-limit/)
Muh coronavirus.
(https://e360.yale.edu/assets/site/_1000xAUTO_stretch_center-center/APImage_Weifang-Air-Pollution_Jan-2017_web.jpg)
Coronavirus gave me pneumonia.
Economy has just detonated. Stock market down big today. Crude oil was cut in half.
Ramifications:
Illinois is now bankrupt. Their pensions just got hit hard. All that's left is for them to fess up.
California is going to be in trouble with their pensions.
New Jersey, Connecticut, and Kentucky on the watch list.
Now the Fed will step in at some point, BIG, and you'll probably get a face ripping rally. But as of now, things are grim. A lot of oil companies will be bankrupt after today. With the collapse of China, the Fed can't do much for the price of oil. My plan is to wait a little longer then step in and buy Exxon with both hands. Currently down at $43.
Trump will get the blame. That will be the biggest fall out. Hopefully the virus is on the wain after May and we get a huge rally. We'll see.
Here you go guys. this is yet another proof that coronavirus is not a coincidence.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/a-simulated-coronavirus-pandemic-in-2019-killed-65-million.html
QuoteExperts Simulated a Coronavirus Pandemic Last Year and It Killed 65 Million
By Adam K. Raymond
COVID-19 coronavirus.
Last October, two months before the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 emerged in central China, a group of public-health experts gathered in New York City for a simulation. Their objective was to determine how industry, national governments, and international institutions could work together to respond to a hypothetical "pandemic with potentially catastrophic consequences."
Such a pandemic is no longer just a hypothetical. This week, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said it's preparing for a coronavirus pandemic and the organization's former director flatly declared that COVID-19 "will become a pandemic."
The characteristics of the virus currently causing global havoc are remarkably similar to the one proposed in the simulation, dubbed "Event 201." The simulated virus, called CAPS for Coronavirus Associated Pulmonary Syndrome, began in Brazilian pigs who passed it to farmers. It resulted in symptoms ranging from mild flu-like symptoms to pneumonia. Three months in, the hypothetical illness had caused 30,000 illnesses and 2,000 deaths.
The fake news report that played at the beginning of the simulation looks like a nightly news report from today.
How did humankind fare in the simulation? Not well. The scenario ended after 18 months with 65 million people dead. The Event 201 website sums it up that state of the pandemic a year and a half in:
Get unlimited access to Intelligencer and everything else New York
The pandemic is beginning to slow due to the decreasing number of susceptible people. The pandemic will continue at some rate until there is an effective vaccine or until 80–90% of the global population has been exposed. From that point on, it is likely to be an endemic childhood disease.
In the weeks after the emergence of the coronavirus in Wuhan, event organizers were forced to answer questions about whether they predicted the current pandemic, and contend with a few conspiracy theories.
The exercise was not a prediction, organizers insist. "We are not now predicting that the nCoV-2019 outbreak will kill 65 million people," the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security said in a statement. "Although our tabletop exercise included a mock novel coronavirus, the inputs we used for modeling the potential impact of that fictional virus are not similar to nCoV-2019."
Rather than serving as a predictive tool, organizers say the simulation was more about identifying opportunities to improve the response to a potential pandemic. To that end, they produced seven recommendations "to diminish the potential impact and consequences of pandemics."
Since the "pandemic" itself is blatantly as fake as SARS, swine flu, zika and all the other crap, the economic impact is solely down to how long government and media can play the psyop game. Thanks to 99% of humans being NPCs of the Matrix, no problems so far.
QuoteThe pandemic will continue at some rate until there is an effective vaccine
Of course ... line up, sheep. Wonder if they'll try to force it on us in some countries.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 09, 2020, 12:08:47 PM
Since the "pandemic" itself is blatantly as fake as SARS, swine flu, zika and all the other crap, the economic impact is solely down to how long government and media can play the psyop game. Thanks to 99% of humans being NPCs of the Matrix, no problems so far.
It does seem so overblown. More people probably die of nosebleeds.
Quote from: Prayerful on March 09, 2020, 12:17:57 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 09, 2020, 12:08:47 PM
Since the "pandemic" itself is blatantly as fake as SARS, swine flu, zika and all the other crap, the economic impact is solely down to how long government and media can play the psyop game. Thanks to 99% of humans being NPCs of the Matrix, no problems so far.
It does seem so overblown. More people probably die of nosebleeds.
Yes sheep will beg for vaccines. My neighbor is already freaking out and wants to be vaccinated. The powers that be are really good at what they are doing.
Average age of all deaths in Italy is apparently something like 81. And they were all suffering from diabetes, cancer and I forget the third issue. But quarantine 16 million people. Doesn't make any sense.
Anyway, it's a good wake up call to us city folks. Times like this make me wish I were living on a farmstead in America in some place I could fish and hunt. With some big guns.
"The pope had a thought on Sunday for people affected by the new coronavirus around the world.
"I am close by the prayer of the people who are suffering from the current epidemic of coronavirus and of all those who care for them," underlined Francis, himself affected for ten days by a commone cold.
It was the first time that he had left his home at Saint-Marthe residence, a few steps from Saint Peter's Basilica, since the open-air audience on Wednesday, February 26, when he toured the square in the popemobile and shook dozens of hands.
"I join my brother bishops in encouraging the faithful to live this difficult moment with the strength of faith, the certainty of hope and the fervour of charity," said the pope, who finally did appear briefly at the famous window to greet the crowd."
https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/08/pope-francis-voices-support-for-coronavirus-victims-in-livestream-message
Quote from: KreuzThese data are meaningless because there is no way to know these people all died of "coronavirus". "Known cases"? Know how, might I ask? People who have some of a set of symptoms in common with various other diseases and get a positive result on a PCR test? You think that actually tells one something?
I don't understand your views in this thread. Is it that viruses don't cause diseases, but just occur together with them? And that vaccines, even properly developed vaccines, can not successfully eradicate the viruses and the diseases? I'm just trying to understand what you believe here.
In my country, I've seen the successful eradication of Polio with my own eyes, and heard elders speak of the successful eradication of smallpox, both through properly developed vaccines. So I'm a bit skeptical of theories claiming otherwise.
You can read: https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/living/story/19770615-india-gets-no-smallpox-certificate-823777-2014-08-20
And also: http://polioeradication.org/news-post/how-india-eradicated-polio-challenges-and-lessons-learned/ about that.
I hope a good vaccine is developed soon. I just read that researchers in Israel hope to have one ready in 90 odd days. It's very easy to test if a vaccine properly does its job or not, either in animals or in humans. Some earlier attempted vaccines were unsuccessful. The final correct ones were completely successful eradicating smallpox and polio. One for coronavirus is needed now.
"The CEO of MIGAL, David Zigdon, said in a press conference that "given the urgent global need for a human Coronavirus vaccine, we are doing everything we can to accelerate development. Our goal is to produce the vaccine during the next 8-10 weeks, and to achieve safety approval in 90 days." https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1582826488-israeli-scientists-say-weeks-away-from-coronavirus-vaccine
Quote from: Xavier on March 09, 2020, 01:06:14 PM
I don't understand your views in this thread. Is it that viruses don't cause diseases, but just occur together with them? And that vaccines, even properly developed vaccines, can not successfully eradicate the viruses and the diseases? I'm just trying to understand what you believe here.
That's what I suspect, but it's even a separate issue to establishign that a virus is making someone ill. PCR tests can't do that. The inventor of PCR himself concurs. As for vaccines, yes, I assert dogmatically that they do not eradicate diseases. All they do is make people sick and stress the immune system.
QuoteIn my country, I've seen the successful eradication of Polio with my own eyes, and heard elders speak of the successful eradication of smallpox, both through properly developed vaccines. So I'm a bit skeptical of theories claiming otherwise.
The symptoms of "polio" are caused by chemical pesticides, DDT, lead, arsenic in the US, not a virus. The latter claim is preposterous considering the "polo virus" causes polio in 0.1-0.5% of alleged carriers. So,
1. Infection with the polio virus is not sufficient to cause the symptoms of polio.
2. Infection with the polio virus is not necessary to cause the symptoms of polio.
But the polio virus is the cause of polio?
Incidentally, DDT use in agriculture was banned in 1989 in India. Polio just happens to have began to be eradicated by vaccinations around the same time.
Will respond later, Kreuz. God Bless.
How vaccine testing for Coronavirus is currently being done around the world:
"A team of scientists jostled for a view of the lab dish, staring impatiently for the first clue that an experimental vaccine against the new coronavirus just might work.
After weeks of round-the-clock research at the U.S. National Institutes of Health, it was time for a key test. If the vaccine revs up the immune system, the samples in that dish — blood drawn from immunized mice — would change colour.
Minutes ticked by, and finally they started glowing blue.
READ MORE: Coronavirus: China sees lowest number of cases within single day since count began
"Especially at moments like this, everyone crowds around," said Kizzmekia Corbett, an NIH research fellow leading the vaccine development. When her team sent word of the positive results, "it was absolutely amazing."
Dozens of research groups around the world are racing to create a vaccine as COVID-19 cases continue to grow. Importantly, they're pursuing different types of vaccines — shots developed from new technologies that not only are faster to make than traditional inoculations but might prove more potent ...
Even if initial safety tests go well, "you're talking about a year to a year and a half" before any vaccine could be ready for widespread use, stressed Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of NIH's National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.
That still would be a record-setting pace. But manufacturers know the wait — required because it takes additional studies of thousands of people to tell if a vaccine truly protects and does no harm — is hard for a frightened public.
"I can really genuinely understand everybody's frustration and maybe even confusion," said Kate Broderick, Inovio's research and development chief. "You can do everything as fast as possible, but you can't circumvent some of these vital processes."
From: https://globalnews.ca/news/6647628/coronavirus-vaccine-test/
The total stats: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
"Coronavirus Cases:
114,056
view by country
Deaths:
4,003
Recovered:
62,834
Quote from: james03 on March 09, 2020, 08:29:37 AM
Economy has just detonated. Stock market down big today. Crude oil was cut in half.
Ramifications:
Illinois is now bankrupt. Their pensions just got hit hard. All that's left is for them to fess up.
California is going to be in trouble with their pensions.
New Jersey, Connecticut, and Kentucky on the watch list.
Now the Fed will step in at some point, BIG, and you'll probably get a face ripping rally. But as of now, things are grim. A lot of oil companies will be bankrupt after today. With the collapse of China, the Fed can't do much for the price of oil. My plan is to wait a little longer then step in and buy Exxon with both hands. Currently down at $43.
Trump will get the blame. That will be the biggest fall out. Hopefully the virus is on the wain after May and we get a huge rally. We'll see.
Just talked to a guy from Marxifornia yesterday, he said the place is unlivable. He moved here last October and he is super happy he did.
As far as ExxonMobil goes, don't catch a falling knife:
41.86
? 5.84 (12.24%)
41.73? 0.13 (0.31%)After Hours · March 9, 6:36 PM EDT
Quote from: Xavier on March 09, 2020, 01:42:06 PM
The total stats: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
"Coronavirus Cases:
114,056
view by country
Deaths:
4,003
Recovered:
62,834
Way over hyped. Deaths in USA due to flu last year:
QuoteFlu season deaths top 80,000 last year, CDC says. An estimated 80,000 Americans died of flu and its complications last winter, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
.
Anyone screaming about the end of the world because of that. Nope.
Don't get me wrong, it is collapsing the Fed induced hyper bubble in the stock market which is way over due and I am all for it. Just think this has all happen in the last 3 weeks. Cool. Bubble meet pin.
If this turns into 1929 all over again, it will hopefully get rid of the Fed and get sanity back into the nation after the pieces are picked up.
Just think, no more global policeman, no more corrupt politicians, no more corrupt criminal justice system, a minimal amount of criminals, no more diversity, no more trannies, sodomites, atheists (at the bare minimum they will be shoved back into shadows), no more mega-cities, no more façade of left and right, etc. It is a wonderful thought. Can you imagine actually leaving your home unlocked again like back in the 50's while you are away? A moral nation again?
Time will tell.
James & Miriam,
That photo is of a quarantine facility and not the 1-week hospitals constructed. The walls are entirely different construction, as are the ceiling heights. That is clearly taken in a facility with huge ceilings like a stadium, as the Chinese said they were placing their quarantine facilities in.
When the US houses homeless in indoor stadiums during natural disasters are those death camps too?
Edit: the death camp comment is in response to James, not Miriam
Quote from: Xavier on March 09, 2020, 01:06:14 PM
I hope a good vaccine is developed soon. I just read that researchers in Israel hope to have one ready in 90 odd days.
Qui bono, eh?
There is Truth in Mass Panic
Right now the media is constantly talking about the coronavirus. Just for fun, I'll turn on the radio now and then to see if that's the topic of discussion, and sure enough it is. People are panicking. They have been lead astray by the post-modern utopian belief that we all are going to live long healthy lives indefinitely. That anything less than that is just plain unacceptable. Your kid climbing on some farm equipment six feet above the ground falls and breaks a bone. Unacceptable in the 21st Century. A pandemic wiping out potentially milions? As if some have no sense of history, that such has happened many times over in the past. Pandemics, like any disease or misfortune, are part and parcel of life on Earth.
I think the truth in the panic (consider that 7,711 people have viewed this thread in the past few weeks, and that you'd have to go back to pg. 6 in this subforum to find a thread exceeding that number of views) is that we are NOT prepared for a pandemic. We as a culture are not just unhealthy but diametrically opposed in practice to healthy habits. Habits such as taking supplements (like good old fashion Vitamin C), eating a well balanced diet, washing your hands, taking preventive measures, etc. And the government and industries are likewise not ready for a pandemic or any kind of international disaster.
I think the truth of how serious this is lies somewhere in the mysterious middle between the naysayers on one side, and on the other the world-as-we-know-it-is-about-to-end coronavirus zombie fighters. The fact top scientists are warning this will likely become a huge pandemic, very possibly killing millions, is cause for alarm. Especially the more ill-prepared we are.
Unlike James03, Greg, or say MaximGun ( ;)), and Gardener too, I have not exactly filled my pantry (until now). It's a good feeling to do that, to arm yourself, to have a plan. Looking ahead, I agree with the moderate minds this is going to be very bad, but likely a temporary period of months of hardship.
Giraldi draws an interesting conclusion. One that is reasonable.
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-made-coronavirus-was-it-the-u-s-israel-or-china-itself/
US over 700 cases. 27 deaths.
Italy at 9000.
QuoteJames & Miriam,
That photo is of a quarantine facility and not the 1-week hospitals constructed.
Fine, now clarify which one is true:
1. People with coronovirus are taken to a place with no facilities for treatment.
2. People suspected of coronvirus are all brought in close proximity of each other.
QuoteAs far as ExxonMobil goes, don't catch a falling knife:
PE: 12.5
I think a price around 30 is a huge buy. Earnings April 24. I'll buy before then.
Theme: Exxon just started production on a game changer elephant field (Guyana). They have revenue going forward for a good 10 years. Saudi/Russia will come to an agreement in a few weeks. China will recover and start bringing in oil again. I'll probably be early, but Exxon at 30 will be a bargain buy. It could go on down to 20, but I'm not doing it for a trade. I'm after the dividend for long term. If I could pick up Exxon at 30, I might never sell it.
as of tomorrow, cant get into building to work w patients if have high temp or symptoms of flu.
Quote from: james03 on March 09, 2020, 08:50:43 PM
QuoteJames & Miriam,
That photo is of a quarantine facility and not the 1-week hospitals constructed.
Fine, now clarify which one is true:
1. People with coronovirus are taken to a place with no facilities for treatment.
2. People suspected of coronvirus are all brought in close proximity of each other.
James,
I am not certain, but from what I read the quarantine facilities brought all citizens together and I am not sure of what the criteria were (perhaps specific parts of the city were worse than others, perhaps some areas needed 24/7 lockdown and thus would risk starvation unless they brought them to a place where supplies could be delivered en masse, or something else, who knows).
I do not know if some facilities were for known mild cases and others for just simply all citizens rounded up, or what. Were people mixed together? I cannot imagine that they could possibly perfectly separate everyone.
If NYC broke down in a massive pandemic, with the hospitals overflowing with people needing emergency forced air ICU care, the disease seemingly spreading everywhere, what would you do as General of this situation?
You need to limit contact (perhaps to the extent of banning supermarket trips for some areas)
But people still need access to food
What would you do?
A critical read: https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538
(copy / pasted below, you can determine for yourself credibility)
From a well respected friend and intensivist/A&E consultant who is currently in northern Italy:
1/ 'I feel the pressure to give you a quick personal update about what is happening in Italy, and also give some quick direct advice about what you should do.
2/ First, Lumbardy is the most developed region in Italy and it has a extraordinary good healthcare, I have worked in Italy, UK and Aus and don't make the mistake to think that what is happening is happening in a 3rd world country.
3/ The current situation is difficult to imagine and numbers do not explain things at all. Our hospitals are overwhelmed by Covid-19, they are running 200% capacity
4/ We've stopped all routine, all ORs have been converted to ITUs and they are now diverting or not treating all other emergencies like trauma or strokes. There are hundreds of pts with severe resp failure and many of them do not have access to anything above a reservoir mask.
5/ Patients above 65 or younger with comorbidities are not even assessed by ITU, I am not saying not tubed, I'm saying not assessed and no ITU staff attends when they arrest. Staff are working as much as they can but they are starting to get sick and are emotionally overwhelmed.
6/ My friends call me in tears because they see people dying in front of them and they con only offer some oxygen. Ortho and pathologists are being given a leaflet and sent to see patients on NIV. PLEASE STOP, READ THIS AGAIN AND THINK.
7/ We have seen the same pattern in different areas a week apart, and there is no reason that in a few weeks it won't be the same everywhere, this is the pattern:
8/ 1)A few positive cases, first mild measures, people are told to avoid ED but still hang out in groups, everyone says not to panick
2)Some moderate resp failures and a few severe ones that need tube, but regular access to ED is significantly reduced so everything looks great
9/ 3)Tons of patients with moderate resp failure, that overtime deteriorate to saturate ICUs first, then NIVs, then CPAP hoods, then even O2.
4)Staff gets sick so it gets difficult to cover for shifts, mortality spikes also from all other causes that can't be treated properly.
10/ Everything about how to treat them is online but the only things that will make a difference are: do not be afraid of massively strict measures to keep people safe,
11/ if governments won't do this at least keep your family safe, your loved ones with history of cancer or diabetes or any transplant will not be tubed if they need it even if they are young. By safe I mean YOU do not attend them and YOU decide who does and YOU teach them how to.
12/ Another typical attitude is read and listen to people saying things like this and think "that's bad dude" and then go out for dinner because you think you'll be safe.
13/ We have seen it, you won't be if you don't take it seriously. I really hope it won't be as bad as here but prepare.
Quote from: Heinrich on March 09, 2020, 05:13:36 PM
Quote from: Xavier on March 09, 2020, 01:06:14 PM
I hope a good vaccine is developed soon. I just read that researchers in Israel hope to have one ready in 90 odd days.
Qui bono, eh?
Translation - who stands, or stood, to gain (from a crime, and so might have been responsible for it)?
I wouldn't go near that vaccine or anyone that got it. They can give it to themselves.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 09, 2020, 05:12:28 PM
James & Miriam,
That photo is of a quarantine facility and not the 1-week hospitals constructed. The walls are entirely different construction, as are the ceiling heights. That is clearly taken in a facility with huge ceilings like a stadium, as the Chinese said they were placing their quarantine facilities in.
When the US houses homeless in indoor stadiums during natural disasters are those death camps too?
Thank you for the correction as to the image, but I checked my post, and it said nothing about "death camps." It's now time for you to issue a retraction.
Thank you.
If I had a euro for every time I heard 'the flu kills more people in the world' yadda yadda yadda.
Yes, it does and why , because humans who aren't in the risk bracket thinking they can carry on as normal coz they'll recover and don't think about those they spread their germs too. One good thing about this virus (and I'll actually bet my left kidney that there will be be more benefits/lessons/spiritual bonuses after this) is that humans understand how hygiene and preventative measures do actually work.
King w , if this is the catastrophic reboot to end all corruption and sin, paedophiles, satanic, abortion, trans then yes we have a silver lining.
God is just and a little bit sneaky, when MAN thinks they are in charge He shows us we are not.
Corona virus is called this because of the crown and spikes surrounding the virus. The irony of a world wide recession and reboot caused by a crown of thorns.
Now I see a creeping mentality of DIVISION.
I'm seeing posts on FB where the usual suspects, known leftys are asking those that stockpiled food to think of the poor who cannot afford to spend extra just to have their rent or those who stockpiled hand sanitiser to think of those who are going through chemotherapy to spare a bottle for them.
I feel like screaming. Those who stockpiled acted prudently while those who didn't watched Love island or Dancing with the stars on TV.
Feck off with your creeping division tactics, making out that the bourgeois or white middle classes are hoarding what is rightfully yours. Go out and fend for yourself.
1 packet of noodles, albeit crap food but filling 22cent in supermarket, some packets are actually 12cent. €11= will purchase 50 packets. Eat twice a day and that's 25 days food, Do that 3 weeks in a row and you get 75 days food. 18 eggs are €2.85, one a day and that's 18 days supply, 1kg of porridge 61 cent, enough for 25 days at 40g per day per person.
4 x 18 cartons of eggs = €11.40
3 x 1kg porridge = €1.83
50 x Noodles €11.00
So for on average €25 you could feed one person on crap food but nonetheless full, for 75 days.
Get a babysitting job at weekends at €10 per hour in a local hotel. Start buying now so that it spreads the cost but don't sit there finger wagging at the 'evil hoarders' because you were too busy playing candy crush on facebook.
Miriam,
The "death camp" comment was in response to James as that was the phrase he used. I wrote to you both since both of you commented on it but apologies for the confusion in mixing this all together.
James & Miriam,
Just saw this on the SCMP:
https://www.scmp.com/photos/3074488/wuhan-close-makeshift-hospitals-covid-19-patients
Looks like some of those are closing down and they were at least partially used to house those with mild cases.
QuoteI cannot imagine that they could possibly perfectly separate everyone.
Just look at the picture. They weren't separated AT ALL.
My point remains, the miracle hospitals weren't hospitals. I'll call them death camps, you call them quarantine centers. That's fine.
QuoteFeck off with your creeping division tactics, making out that the bourgeois or white middle classes are hoarding what is rightfully yours. Go out and fend for yourself.
The Left is infantile and psychologically fragile, if not insane. Their self hatred (which is also a hatred of God) is the well of hate they spew on others.
St Patricks day parades are cancelled in Dublin and Cork.
Expecting a notice any day now that our schools are to close from St Patricks day to curtail the virus.
So far we have not had any deaths thank God.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 09, 2020, 11:29:34 PM
A critical read: https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538
(copy / pasted below, you can determine for yourself credibility)
Anecdotes from a unnamed friend from some dude on Twitter. It must be true. People are dropping like flies in Italy. Hundreds of thousands dead.
Hand gels in Iran are said to contain the poisonous methanol, leaving aside how the Revolutionary Guards have reportedly selling fake or massively marked up equipment sent by the EU and others as aid.
Official stats from Iran
Cases: 8042 (+881)
Deaths: 291 (+54)
There is also an apparent tailing off of increase in cases, which might be due to a lack of capacity in hospitals.
Lots of doctors reportedly dying, also politicians and public officials.
Some suggestions of 2000 deaths, but that's uncertain. MEK aren't exactly impartial.
Ali (https://twitter.com/aliostad/status/1237307792316301312) is an Iranian tweeting in English who tries to sift fact from myth, including here when it suggests an alarmist Atlantic article has very flawed sampling.
Ali does a daily tweet chain like for 10th March (https://twitter.com/aliostad/status/1237302508659314693).
He also reports a refusal to quarantine the epicentre Qom properly, while in places locals are doing it.
Quotewhile in places locals are doing it
If a more deadlier second wave occurs sometime later this year and governments start to topple the locals will have to take charge.
Quote from: james03 on March 10, 2020, 08:09:42 AM
QuoteI cannot imagine that they could possibly perfectly separate everyone.
Just look at the picture. They weren't separated AT ALL.
My point remains, the miracle hospitals weren't hospitals. I'll call them death camps, you call them quarantine centers. That's fine.
James,
It is fairly simple. There were two 1-week constructed hospitals. Those were hospitals for the seriously ill. Separately, there were many quarantine facilities set up within stadiums and other public venues. These were for those with mild illnesses or perhaps no illness at all (but in contact with those whom were sick). The photo you posted is of the quarantine facility not of the 1-week hospitals you and abc123 are discussing.
You can spend 5 seconds youtubing the names of the two hospitals and see both official and leaked video footage of the interiors of them and match them and see that yes, they are setup to be like hospitals. The quarantine facilities are just that, quarantine facilities with minor care for those with minor cases.
None of this fits the description of "death camp."
Edit:
Regarding separation, separation can easily be done between facilities, not within the same facility.
Italy over 10,000
USA at 975 with 30 deaths. We'll definitely exceed 1500 by Sunday and over 5000 the following. Actually I think it will be higher.
Quote from: james03 on March 10, 2020, 07:31:39 PM
Italy over 10,000
USA at 975 with 30 deaths. We'll definitely exceed 1500 by Sunday and over 5000 the following. Actually I think it will be higher.
Got a long way to go to catch the flu.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm
Interesting theory.
https://youtu.be/gQrV0hpQw2c
An article with insight into northern Italian hospitals these days:
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-italy-doctors-tough-calls-survival/
Matches what the Twitter poster recounted. Also matches what the Wuhan doctors reported.
As for the flu, the comparison is inappropriate. The flu has always been everywhere at all times, this virus is hardly established. If you apply US flu deaths per capita to Lombardy, we can estimate about 2,000 deaths per year in Lombardy from the flu. In the past few days over 600 have died in Lombardy from Covid19. If in a month Lombardy is still suffering as it is now, the comparison to the flu will be an order of magnitude off at minimum.
It remains to be seen if something like hot weather, antivirals, or other put a quick stop to this. I certainly do not rule anything like that out, but simply extrapolating from the experience in Lombardy, everyone should be worried (if not for yourself, then for elderly people you know). It is not the plague with some crazy 30% death rate, but it is extremely contagious and seems to have a 1% CFR - so 1% of a ton of people is still a lot of deaths. But it isn't the sort of thing that kills off whole nations.
The other matter is the supply chain issue as discussed before.
"Chinese dropping like flies" -- Good.
Quote from: Markus on March 11, 2020, 01:10:26 AM
"Chinese dropping like flies" -- Good.
The light of Christ shines within you.
Quote from: james03 on March 10, 2020, 07:31:39 PM
Italy over 10,000
USA at 975 with 30 deaths. We'll definitely exceed 1500 by Sunday and over 5000 the following. Actually I think it will be higher.
All imaginary numbers.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 10, 2020, 10:50:18 PM
In the past few days over 600 have died in Lombardy from Covid19.
There is no evidence of that. Neither PCR tests nor presumptive diagnonis based on symptoms can establish a causal relationship between these deaths and a virus. But go on repeating yourself like a stuck record.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 11, 2020, 04:28:59 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 10, 2020, 10:50:18 PM
In the past few days over 600 have died in Lombardy from Covid19.
There is no evidence of that. Neither PCR tests nor presumptive diagnonis based on symptoms can establish a causal relationship between these deaths and a virus. But go on repeating yourself like a stuck record.
Kreuz
Imagine you are doing a summary of your pov for dummies ie ME :)
What is PCR and yes I have seen the 'presumed diagnosis' in headlines - what does this mean?
QuoteGot a long way to go to catch the flu.
Yeah that is scary. Imagine 30 million infected with a higher mortality rate. In a week or two our ICUs will be full.
Quote from: diaduit on March 11, 2020, 07:28:57 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 11, 2020, 04:28:59 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 10, 2020, 10:50:18 PM
In the past few days over 600 have died in Lombardy from Covid19.
There is no evidence of that. Neither PCR tests nor presumptive diagnonis based on symptoms can establish a causal relationship between these deaths and a virus. But go on repeating yourself like a stuck record.
Kreuz
Imagine you are doing a summary of your pov for dummies ie ME :)
What is PCR and yes I have seen the 'presumed diagnosis' in headlines - what does this mean?
They're testing for "infection" in two ways: for the presence of antibodies in a blood sample and for the presence of genetic material from a throat swab. The first obviously tells one nothing about so-called "viral load", the quantity of the alleged virus in ones body, and, even assuming the virus can cause disease, nothing about a causal connection between it and the disease in the individual. This is all the more so because most people who have these antibodies are not sick. The second is done via PCR, polymerase chain reaction, which amplifies genetic material in a sample for detection and study. Basically they are testing for the presence of two genes allegedly specific to the purported virus. Again, according to the late inventor of the method, "Quantitative PCR is an oxymoron" and cannot be used to establish "viral load" or a causal connection between a virus and a disease in the individual, though it is purported by the medical hucksters to do so. It's also far less accurate (both false negatives and positives!) than antibody tests, which is why the latter + antigen test is preferred in diagnosing "HIV" while the former is used to measure "viral load". Note also that the probability of a positive result being a false positive depends not just on the accuracy of a test but on the actual (and unknown!) infection rate, so if few people being tested actually have the virus, a relatively small inaccuracy brings with it a much larger probability of false positive results. A presumptive diagnosis here basically means if you're living in these regions supposedly affected by the virus, when you show up at the hospital or die with symptoms associated with "coronavirus", they just presume you are a case - and yes, it becomes circular.
I need to make clear, what viruses are or aren't, and I don't think we actually understand the associated phenomena very well, is a separate issue to the fallacious logic, bad science and propaganda used to construct a "pandemic" like this.
What first made me a skeptic was examining the alleged AIDS pandemic and coming to the conclusion that Robert Gallo is a lying fraud and probable sociopath, HIV does not cause AIDS, HIV probably doesn't even exist, and "AIDS" is a construct. If that could be true of HIV/AIDS, the "pandemic" hammered on by government and media for decades, of what else could it be true?
Unfortunately I have no one to protect me or my family in the event of a global or society-wide pandemic. No man in the house and no where to stay but home. Knowing how violent and dangerous the mobs are-and that human beings behave as wild animals-I'm not expecting any orderly control by humanity in general. Rule without law. It's a free for all, especially if you are a woman. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets so extreme at one point in the future with any hypothetical pandemic, that there will be increased cases of violence and rape among unprotected women. So much for "feminism."
I'm looking to see if we can stock up on food, water, vitamins, etc to last us at least 3-6 months in case it does come to full martial law or quarantine. Have to see what we currently have already. I told one of my friends that if he has absolutely no place to stay in the event he needs to evacuate his apartment he can come stay with me. People at work have been stealing disposable respirators (which should only be used for work purposes) and taking them home for personal use. For my job, sadly there is no way for me to work remotely from home.
Perhaps if the coronavirus gets bad enough in Italy maybe it can wipe away the sodomite cesspool in Rome. We need real male clergy and true female religious to step up instead of hiding in their glass houses. I think one suburb in New York is already or will be on lockdown-and martial law-which includes "all houses of worship" being closed. Harvard is apparently kicking out all 36,000 students by Sunday and telling them to go to internet college. The marxist/socialist/modernist west would like nothing more than depriving people of the Sacraments, so no surprises there. Perhaps if things get bad enough in any hypothetical pandemic there will be "hidden" Catholics and celebration of the Liturgy in "house churches?"
So much for trying to find a husband in the coming hypothetical global plague. Although technically we have been in the "End Times" ever since Christ came down to earth as a Man.
At least westerners are all stocked up on toilet paper!
People in those days trusted government and the scientists peddling the mainstream medical narratives too. Don't forget to take your daily dose of DDT porridge.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtcXXbuR244[/yt]
No way spraying kids and their food with this and other chemical pesticides caused nausea, vomiting, fever and paralysis. The correlation with the rise and fall of polio is just coincidence. Pharma companies and their vaccines saved us.
Some updates: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/eu-promises-takes-curb-coronavirus-live-updates-200310235816410.html
"The World Health Organization has declared the worldwide outbreak of the new coronavirus a pandemic, with more than 118,000 cases in 114 countries and 4,291 deaths ...
Wednesday, March 11 19:59 GMT - World figure skating championships in Montreal canceled
19:52 GMT - Denmark shuts schools and universities
19:31 GMT - Trump 'prepared to use full government power'
19:13 GMT - NBA: Golden State Warriors to play without fans
18:42 GMT - France reports 15 more coronavirus deaths
18:01 GMT - Iran's VP Eshaq Jahangiri stricken by coronavirus
17:49 GMT - Guatemala to ban entry of European citizens
17:10 GMT - Italy's death toll jumps to 827 ...
And from the Polish Bishops, the courageous and right step: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/polish-archbishop-not-praying-in-churches-during-outbreak-unthinkable-34020
"Poznan, Poland, Mar 10, 2020 / 10:50 am (CNA).- The president of the Polish bishops' conference has asked for an increase in the number of Sunday Masses said in the country so that more people can attend safely amid the coronavirus outbreak.
"In connection with the recommendations of the Chief Sanitary Inspector that there should be no large gatherings of people, I ask to increase – as far as possible – the number of Sunday Masses in churches so that a number of believers can attend the liturgy ... according to the guidelines of the sanitary services," Archbishop Stanis?aw G?decki of Pozna? wrote in a statement sent March 10 to CNA.
Because among a church's function is to cure spiritual disease, "it is unthinkable that we do not pray in our churches," he reflected."
Quote from: KreuzPeople in those days trusted government and the scientists peddling the mainstream medical narratives too.
I do understand the skepticism, both abour Big Pharma in general, and vaccines in particular. For e.g. in another thread we discussed that pharmaceutical companies din't want the word to get out that fasting can reverse diabetes, and instead prefer millinos of people to become hooked on insulin injections. It's all about profits and their bottom line for some of them: "WEDNESDAY, Oct. 10, 2018 (HealthDay News) -- Occasional fasting may help control type 2 diabetes, a small Canadian study suggests.
"The use of a therapeutic fasting regimen for treatment of [type 2 diabetes] is virtually unheard of," said Dr. Jason Fung, of Scarborough Hospital, in Ontario, and colleagues.
But this trial showed that 24-hour fasting regimens can significantly reverse or eliminate the need for diabetic medication, the study authors said.
Three men, aged 40 to 67, were taking various drugs and daily insulin injections to control their diabetes. They also had high blood pressure and high cholesterol.
After a six-hour training seminar, two of the men fasted on alternate days for a full 24 hours, while the third fasted three days a week.
On fast days, they were allowed to drink very low calorie drinks (tea/coffee, water or broth) and to eat one very low calorie meal in the evening.
All three were able to stop their insulin injections within a month of starting their fasting schedule. For one man, this took only five days." https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/news/20181010/can-short-fasts-help-reverse-type-2-diabetes
So, there may be some scams, Kreuz, like the DDT; I don't know that much about all the other things. I know there are some bad vaccines. The best way to control that imo is independent testing from multiple laboratories and well documented studies that a particular vaccine works well in many different cases, and has no harmful side effects in doing so.
God Bless.
John Hopkins University has placed all the stats into a handy table and maps:
COVID-19 map and table (https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6)
122,356 cases, 4,550 deaths. Now that second number should alert you to how this table is working off official stats, which are sometimes deeply flawed. 354 deaths for Iran is not believable. It doesn't even tally with what governors are reporting.
1 case confirmed less than an hour away from me and first death in Ireland.
May her soul rest in peace.
From ZH linking to VICE:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/k7ex4a/coronavirus-has-northern-italys-hospitals-on-the-brink-of-collapse
Quote"Health care facilities have reached critical levels in Lombardy due the high number of hospitalizations and cases requiring intensive care,"
"By now, we're forced to provide intensive care treatment in the corridor, in the operating rooms, in the recovery rooms," he said. "We gutted entire hospital wards to make room for the seriously ill. One of the best healthcare systems in the world, the Lombard one, is one step away from collapse."
Massimo Galli, director of infectious diseases at Milan's Sacco hospital, told The Guardian he had similar concerns. "The pressure on hospitals in Lombardy these days is enormous. I am very, very worried about the impact the virus will have on our health system."
Just a giant coincidence I am sure. There is no relation to the exact same thing which happened in Wuhan or on the Diamond Princess.
If you don't believe in viruses then stop focusing on that. Call it bad mojo. There is bad mojo going around. The bad mojo is killing people. Maybe you want to be concerned about the bad mojo if not for yourself then for any elderly people you know.
USA: 1,320 cases (I predicted 1,500 by Sunday, too tame). 38 dead. I'm predicting 5,000 in the US a week from Sunday.
Italy: 12,500 cases. 825 dead. 1,000 listed as serious. Within the next few days Italy's ICU's will be completely full. That's when you see the death toll increase as people requiring a ventilator will just die.
Same will happen in the US. When we run out of ICU beds, deaths will spike. Current mortality rate of around 3% of confirmed cases. Many are untested, so it's probably around 1% if ICU's are available. Note this is deadly to old people. If you are healthy, it's the flu. Small quarantines are starting to pop up in the US. Stock up. Shop at night.
Economically Dow off 1500 points. Put your paycheck in your savings account. Now's the time to start stacking.
Quote from: diaduit on March 11, 2020, 04:46:26 PM
1 case confirmed less than an hour away from me and first death in Ireland.
May her soul rest in peace.
Diaduit,
I am sorry to hear about this. May she rest in peace. :pray2: :pray3:
Do you happen to know if the lady travelled to Europe, China or any of the infected places?
Do you know how she was infected?
What do you know about the other infected case you mentioned?
What is the situation with the schools in the area? Are your children still going to school?
Take good care of yourself & loved ones :pray1:
Related to what James just said, this is shaping up to be the financial crisis that I've been warning (not here) about since 2010. It seems James has as well. I don't care to get into the details because if you haven't been following finance for the past decade you simply will never understand how messed up the entire global monetary system is. But cutting to the chase, people should prepare for temporary inability to access the banking system (your bank account, debit, credit, ATMs, credit lines). The governments will eventually step in but there is no free lunch, this stuff is not magic, there will be losses in various ways. It is not the end of the world but I am just warning you to be prepared, do not rely 100% upon the banking system in order to be able to purchase things.
I suspect long term it will be massive inflation. Post '08 this inflation was experienced primarily in asset prices (S&P from 700 to 3,000), but with the potential supply chain disruption and interest rates already near zero (or negative), this time it risks being experienced much more so in prices for physical goods. This will be exacerbated by helicopter money - governments mailing checks directly to people to spend money in order to kickstart the economy.
Again, not the end of the world, but it does not hurt to be a bit prepared.
Quote from: diaduit on March 11, 2020, 04:46:26 PM
1 case confirmed less than an hour away from me and first death in Ireland.
May her soul rest in peace.
"Confirmed" by what?
Look at the main players in this "virus" game. If any of you think about getting a vaccine from these imps then think twice before doing so. We should rather fear what they are up to and what changes they want to bring about.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/ncov-2019-coronavirus-time-line/5705776a
Also We should definitely get ready for a police state or something similar to what is going on in China so it is smart to get extra food stashed awayd.
Quote from: Prayerful on March 11, 2020, 03:47:53 PM
John Hopkins University has placed all the stats into a handy table and maps:
COVID-19 map and table (https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6)
122,356 cases, 4,550 deaths. Now that second number should alert you to how this table is working off official stats, which are sometimes deeply flawed. 354 deaths for Iran is not believable. It doesn't even tally with what governors are reporting.
Nothing tallies with anything, because there is no sound basis for determining "cases".
Quote from: james03 on March 11, 2020, 08:55:39 PM
Same will happen in the US. When we run out of ICU beds, deaths will spike. Current mortality rate of around 3% of confirmed cases. Many are untested, so it's probably around 1% if ICU's are available.
Stop lying. There are no "confirmed cases". There are no "confirmed cases" because no method is being used that is able to confirm the "coronavirus" as cause of disease or death.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 11, 2020, 10:53:08 PM
Quote from: james03 on March 11, 2020, 08:55:39 PM
Same will happen in the US. When we run out of ICU beds, deaths will spike. Current mortality rate of around 3% of confirmed cases. Many are untested, so it's probably around 1% if ICU's are available.
Stop lying. There are no "confirmed cases". There are no "confirmed cases" because no method is being used that is able to confirm the "coronavirus" as cause of disease or death.
You are extremely annoying. Can you please post less?
We can't all be as smart as you, single handedly falsifying modern medicine and all. Good thing you cracked the code, only you were smart enough and special enough to figure it out. Now please keep it super secret or else pretty soon you're going to put us medical professionals out of a job.
Quote from: james03 on March 11, 2020, 08:55:39 PMThat's when you see the death toll increase as people requiring a ventilator will just die.
The "death toll" will go to whatever the Italian government need to squeeze aid money out of the European Union.
Quote from: Lambda Phage on March 11, 2020, 11:06:32 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 11, 2020, 10:53:08 PM
Quote from: james03 on March 11, 2020, 08:55:39 PM
Same will happen in the US. When we run out of ICU beds, deaths will spike. Current mortality rate of around 3% of confirmed cases. Many are untested, so it's probably around 1% if ICU's are available.
Stop lying. There are no "confirmed cases". There are no "confirmed cases" because no method is being used that is able to confirm the "coronavirus" as cause of disease or death.
You are extremely annoying. Can you please post less?
We can't all be as smart as you, single handedly falsifying modern medicine and all. Good thing you cracked the code, only you were smart enough and special enough to figure it out. Now please keep it super secret or else pretty soon you're going to put us medical professionals out of a job.
You have no argument. You have no refutation of the facts. You have no way to contradict the reality that antibody and PCR tests do not and cannot confirm the hypothesis of a virus being the cause of disease or death in an individual. You cannot even provide me with a test done on coronavirus that meets Robert Koch's standards for isolation of a virus as an infectious disease-causing agent. You have no response to the demonstrable history of fake pandemics and erroneous narratives of microbial theories of disease, from polio down to AIDS and SARS.
Now drink your government-supplid Kool-Aid, muppet.
Quote from: Lambda Phage on March 11, 2020, 11:06:32 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 11, 2020, 10:53:08 PM
Quote from: james03 on March 11, 2020, 08:55:39 PM
Same will happen in the US. When we run out of ICU beds, deaths will spike. Current mortality rate of around 3% of confirmed cases. Many are untested, so it's probably around 1% if ICU's are available.
Stop lying. There are no "confirmed cases". There are no "confirmed cases" because no method is being used that is able to confirm the "coronavirus" as cause of disease or death.
You are extremely annoying. Can you please post less?
We can't all be as smart as you, single handedly falsifying modern medicine and all. Good thing you cracked the code, only you were smart enough and special enough to figure it out. Now please keep it super secret or else pretty soon you're going to put us medical professionals out of a job.
And yes, many of you would be out of a job if human beings began eating a nutrient-dense diet, stopped poisoning themselves, and followed simple and cheap protocols against disease like megadosing of vitamin C. Your "professional opinion" matters as much to me as that of a doctor putting a kid with "ADHD" on rit.alin.
When it doesn't happen that more than half the population is infected, that you see people around you getting ill and dying, that everyone knows a few who keeled over, which by all estimates of the establishment is what ought to happen, when it slowly dawns on you that reality isn't matching the news reports and they slowly drop the narrative, what will you do then? Oh, I'm sure you'll find a way to convince yourselves this was all real and not a giant hoax and be ready for the next one.
Leaving aside for the moment the condemnation of Western medicine being enjoyed on this thread, what I do think is hysteria-producing and distorted is the drama over the U.S. episodes by the MSM What's our total population? (I forget.) Anyway, the percentages of people dying within the U.S. as a whole are tiny Worse, the most extreme reactions by government officials seem to be in the area where the fewest deaths per 1000 have been reported. (Dense locations where something like 3 people have died.) Come on!
And then there's the fact that until recently, Washington State had "the highest death toll." Yes, because like 95% of the deceased were from the nursing home -- the age and condition most at risk. They were not scattered all over Washington State, of random ages and unknown sources.
CNN has had like 24/7 coverage of corona -- amazingly, overshadowing even its mania for U.S. politics.
Then there's Dr. Fauci, paraded on TV every hour, saying that Corona is "10 times more deadly than the flu." But actually, the flu is not very deadly in the big scheme of things. (People die much more often from car crashes.)
Kreuzritter - I think at this stage the onus is on you to define NOW at what point in this viruses progression you will admit you are wrong about this.
What would have to happen for you to admit the numbers were not fake and that Italy, China, the travel industry, the trade conference industry, the restaurant and hotel industries, Google and Facebook and hundreds of other companies who have made staff work at home are not all involved in a giant headfake to destroy and damage their profits?
If you don't have the courage to state this ahead of time, and be held to account, then you're a sounding brass.
The problem is that you could come here in 12 months time when the world has changed immeasurably and say, "it woz the panic wot caused it". "None of you saw the millions of dead people". "Collapsing the global economy was part of their master plan". "The 10 Trad priests who "died" were really crypto Jews who were put into place in the 1980s as sleepers to disappear to Israel and let their chapels collapse".
Put up or shut up.
MaximGun,
A noble, but guaranteed to fail, effort. This isn't about reason but emotion.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 17, 2020, 12:07:27 PM
I would bet my bottom dollar that if we'd been running PCR tests for "coronavirus" in patients in America, Europe, Japan, etc. years ago we would have seen positives in the same frequency we are seeing today. I'd also bet that this epidemic, if there even is one, never extends beyond the bounds of certain parts of China, because that is the locus of whatever is really causing the problem. We'll see.
The first bet can never be resolved unless you have a time machine.
Have you lost the second bet yet? Would you say thay the epidemic has spread beyond the bounds of certain parts of China?
Like Italy or Iran for example? Not to mention the other 90 countries.
If not, please define how many dead or infected outside China this requires to satisfy your criteria.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 12, 2020, 02:01:16 AM
MaximGun,
A noble, but guaranteed to fail, effort. This isn't about reason but emotion.
He has been through the denial stage. We have then seen the anger from him..... what is next?
Arthur Schopenhauer
https://youtu.be/t4N09qsMdPQ
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 01:43:29 AM
Kreuzritter - I think at this stage the onus is on you to define NOW at what point in this viruses progression you will admit you are wrong about this.
What would have to happen for you to admit the numbers were not fake and that Italy, China, the travel industry, the trade conference industry, the restaurant and hotel industries, Google and Facebook and hundreds of other companies who have made staff work at home are not all involved in a giant headfake to destroy and damage their profits?
If you don't have the courage to state this ahead of time, and be held to account, then you're a sounding brass.
The problem is that you could come here in 12 months time when the world has changed immeasurably and say, "it woz the panic wot caused it". "None of you saw the millions of dead people". "Collapsing the global economy was part of their master plan". "The 10 Trad priests who "died" were really crypto Jews who were put into place in the 1980s as sleepers to disappear to Israel and let their chapels collapse".
Put up or shut up.
I'm in the same camp as Kreuzritter so ill offer my own criteria:
When (it won't) "coronavirus" reaches and surpasses the body count that the Flu does every year and starts killing people who are under 70 and/or already don't have a laundry list of pre-existing, serious medical issues: that's when I may begin to get nervous.
Until such time I will consider you and others like you to have been duped by the media and ruled by your emotions rather than facts. Sadly the panic IS the reason why the market is tanking and fights are breaking out over toilet paper. The actual FACTS show that most people have been successfully conditioned by the media.
Edit:
https://www.nj.com/entertainment/2020/03/tom-hanks-and-rita-wilson-test-positive-for-coronavirus-we-felt-a-bit-tired.html
Well take a look at that. Tom Hanks beat the DEADLY coronavirus. They had some cold symptoms and...Coronavirus. Maybe if I had been tested last week when I sneezed a couple times I would have tested positive too. Hell, maybe we all have the coronavirus and just don't know it.
News from Italy looks very, very tragic. Sigh. It's Lent, dear friends. Let us Christians pray and fast much for this virus to be speedily defeated by humanity. Stay safe, everybody. Take the advice in Maxim's Video; in 2 or so weeks, we'll all be wishing that we did imo.
"Italy closes most shops and restaurants as coronavirus death toll jumps 30% in 24 hours
The latest restrictions come as the virus death toll surged over 30% on Wednesday to more than 800 - the biggest daily jump since the start of the outbreak.
Italy is already under a national lockdown restricting citizens' movement and activities.
Prime Minister Conte said the world was watching to see how Italy responds ...
"I have a deep conviction. I would like to share it with you. Tomorrow not only will they look at us again and admire us, but they will take us as a positive example of a country that, thanks to its sense of community, has managed to win its battle against this pandemic."
And: ""Thank you to all Italians who make sacrifices. We are proving to be a great nation," Conte said in the nine-minute broadcast.
"We will only be able to see the effects of this great effort in a couple of weeks," he said, referring to the daily bulletins announcing the number of new cases and fatalities.
On Wednesday the death toll in Europe's worst-affected country jumped by 196 in 24 hours to 827. Confirmed cases across the country rose to 12,462 from a previous 10,149.
The latest measures will take effect from Thursday and remain in place until March 25, the prime minister's office said.
"The country needs responsibility from all of us, the responsibility of 60 million Italians that are making small and large sacrifices every day," Conte said."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/italy-tightens-lockdown-coronavirus-death-toll-soars-200312004301790.html
https://youtu.be/l5twUq9iPSE
https://youtu.be/Y7nZ4mw4mXw
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 02:17:21 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 12, 2020, 02:01:16 AM
MaximGun,
A noble, but guaranteed to fail, effort. This isn't about reason but emotion.
He has been through the denial stage. We have then seen the anger from him..... what is next?
Arthur Schopenhauer
https://youtu.be/t4N09qsMdPQ
Bargaining
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 01:43:29 AM
Kreuzritter - I think at this stage the onus is on you to define NOW at what point in this viruses progression you will admit you are wrong about this.
No, the onus is upon you to demonstrate the existence of an infectious virus known as "coronavirus" that can make people ill as well as demonstrate it is the causal agent of disease in the individuals being reported as "coronavirus" cases.
QuoteWhat would have to happen for you to admit the numbers were not fake
I have no reliable data one way or the other to come to a conclusion about actual numbers of illness and death versus the norm to show that anything exceptional is even occurring, in China or elsewhere, let alone that it is being caused by "coronavirus".
What's interesting is that you simply ignore every factual point I make, for instance, the 3-18 million deaths per year from pneumonia in China over the 1980s-2000s and the inherent failure of employed viral tests to establish the cause of disease. Your entire narrative rests upon mere presumptions.
Quoteand that Italy, China,
Seeing the dead piling up on the streets of London. That's how much I trust government and corporate media.
Quotethe travel industry, the trade conference industry, the restaurant and hotel industries, Google and Facebook and hundreds of other companies who have made staff work at home are not all involved in a giant headfake to destroy and damage their profits?
You can stop with the deceptive straw men. I have made no such claim and surmise these industries are simply run by people following the narrative like you.
QuoteIf you don't have the courage to state this ahead of time, and be held to account, then you're a sounding brass.
Now you're just lying.
QuoteThe problem is that you could come here in 12 months time when the world has changed immeasurably and say, "it woz the panic wot caused it". "None of you saw the millions of dead people".
Err ... it's demonstrable that the current market crash is being caused by government actions (like mass quarantines), industrial actions following the pandemic narrative (like shutting down factories or making people work from home), private actions induced by fear (like not travelling, eating out etc.) together with panic selling and investors pricing in feared consequences dependent upon the mainstream pandemic narrative. They are not based in millions off sick, hundreds of thousands of dead workers or, as of yet, fundamentals.
Quote"Collapsing the global economy was part of their master plan". "The 10 Trad priests who "died" were really crypto Jews who were put into place in the 1980s as sleepers to disappear to Israel and let their chapels collapse".
Put up or shut up.
No, you put up or shut up.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 02:13:37 AM
Have you lost the second bet yet? Would you say thay the epidemic has spread beyond the bounds of certain parts of China?
Like Italy or Iran for example? Not to mention the other 90 countries.
What epidemic? I have no answer to a loaded question that begs the question.
Quote
If not, please define how many dead or infected outside China this requires to satisfy your criteria.
Dead from what? I've already given my criteria: demonstrate the existence of a virus by isolation and prove it is killing people defined as "cases". Then we can begin to talk about numbers.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 12, 2020, 02:01:16 AM
MaximGun,
A noble, but guaranteed to fail, effort. This isn't about reason but emotion.
Liar. I have put forth my
reasons over and over. You have yet to respond to any of them.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 02:17:21 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 12, 2020, 02:01:16 AM
MaximGun,
A noble, but guaranteed to fail, effort. This isn't about reason but emotion.
He has been through the denial stage. We have then seen the anger from him..... what is next?
Arthur Schopenhauer
https://youtu.be/t4N09qsMdPQ
Yes, trust the WHO. Line up for your polio vaccine.
Quote from: abc123 on March 12, 2020, 03:11:00 AM
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 01:43:29 AM
Kreuzritter - I think at this stage the onus is on you to define NOW at what point in this viruses progression you will admit you are wrong about this.
What would have to happen for you to admit the numbers were not fake and that Italy, China, the travel industry, the trade conference industry, the restaurant and hotel industries, Google and Facebook and hundreds of other companies who have made staff work at home are not all involved in a giant headfake to destroy and damage their profits?
If you don't have the courage to state this ahead of time, and be held to account, then you're a sounding brass.
The problem is that you could come here in 12 months time when the world has changed immeasurably and say, "it woz the panic wot caused it". "None of you saw the millions of dead people". "Collapsing the global economy was part of their master plan". "The 10 Trad priests who "died" were really crypto Jews who were put into place in the 1980s as sleepers to disappear to Israel and let their chapels collapse".
Put up or shut up.
I'm in the same camp as Kreuzritter so ill offer my own criteria:
When (it won't) "coronavirus" reaches and surpasses the body count that the Flu does every year and starts killing people who are under 70 and/or already don't have a laundry list of pre-existing, serious medical issues: that's when I may begin to get nervous.
Until such time I will consider you and others like you to have been duped by the media and ruled by your emotions rather than facts. Sadly the panic IS the reason why the market is tanking and fights are breaking out over toilet paper. The actual FACTS show that most people have been successfully conditioned by the media.
Edit:
https://www.nj.com/entertainment/2020/03/tom-hanks-and-rita-wilson-test-positive-for-coronavirus-we-felt-a-bit-tired.html
Well take a look at that. Tom Hanks beat the DEADLY coronavirus. They had some cold symptoms and...Coronavirus. Maybe if I had been tested last week when I sneezed a couple times I would have tested positive too. Hell, maybe we all have the coronavirus and just don't know it.
Not exactly going out on a limb there. Nobody in this thread has suggested that it is the end of the world as we know it. But millions of over 65s dying over the next 2 years from a new endemic virus will have second order effects. Those people are often helping with childcare, they have knowledge, they are spending money, they own real-estate, (they are funding the SSPX). The pensions and life insurance industries will be rocked for a start because the actuarial assumptions will be kaput.
Markets are irrational and whether they tank or grow for reason you agree with makes no difference. Their tanking is still caused by the virus.
I agree that eventually the world will return to a new normal. But that is not what has been suggested in previous pages.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 12, 2020, 04:44:35 AM
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 02:17:21 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 12, 2020, 02:01:16 AM
MaximGun,
A noble, but guaranteed to fail, effort. This isn't about reason but emotion.
He has been through the denial stage. We have then seen the anger from him..... what is next?
Arthur Schopenhauer
https://youtu.be/t4N09qsMdPQ
Yes, trust the WHO. Line up for your polio vaccine.
You should watch a video before judging it. He says the opposite of your assumption you arrogant twerp.
Quote from: abc123 on March 12, 2020, 03:11:00 AM
I'm in the same camp as Kreuzritter so ill offer my own criteria:
When (it won't) "coronavirus" reaches and surpasses the body count that the Flu does every year and starts killing people who are under 70 and/or already don't have a laundry list of pre-existing, serious medical issues: that's when I may begin to get nervous.
Until such time I will consider you and others like you to have been duped by the media and ruled by your emotions rather than facts. Sadly the panic IS the reason why the market is tanking and fights are breaking out over toilet paper. The actual FACTS show that most people have been successfully conditioned by the media.
I don't think Catholics are less likely to fall into that part of humanity that operates on the basis of authority and convention.
Quote
Edit:
https://www.nj.com/entertainment/2020/03/tom-hanks-and-rita-wilson-test-positive-for-coronavirus-we-felt-a-bit-tired.html
Well take a look at that. Tom Hanks beat the DEADLY coronavirus. They had some cold symptoms and...Coronavirus. Maybe if I had been tested last week when I sneezed a couple times I would have tested positive too. Hell, maybe we all have the coronavirus and just don't know it.
My point exactly. And that's based on tests for antibodies or for two genes presumed to be specific to a proposed infectious agent of disease. People seem to be under the impression that their venerated medical professionals can look at a tissue sample and isolate virions from it like bacteria. That they find the virus in you rather than testing for some presumed markers of infection. Lol.
Quote from: abc123 on March 01, 2020, 05:38:23 AM
I only wonder in a few months when people start to ask "whatever happened to coronavirus?" If those who are fear mongering will admit they were once again duped by a controlled experiment to see how easily the masses can be manipulated and controlled.
Over 600 dead in Italy. No flights to the USA from mainland Europe 26 countries for a month. Businesses shuttered.
While it is not the zombie apocalypse, it is not a controlled experiment either. It is an outbreak of a new disease and probably one that will stay endemic in the population and over time kill off 30 times as many over 65s than the flu does.
Your assessement from a mere 10 days ago was wrong.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 02:13:37 AM
The first bet can never be resolved unless you have a time machine.
Oh, but it can be done for other "viruses". And it can be paralleled with the case of a particular virus, or rather retrovirus, in a place of the world where vast swathes of the population are in fact tested for its markers: HIV in Southern Africa. Here 25% of people test positive for "infection", the overwhelming majority of them without symptoms of disease. And, of course, the infection rate and spread is impossible to reconcile with the data from studies of heterosexual transmission rates of HIV, which is practically nil.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 05:00:21 AM
Over 600 dead in Italy.
Some 1800 people die every day in Italy. 600 dead from what? Because of what? What do you think you're proving by citing this number?
QuoteNo flights to the USA from mainland Europe 26 countries for a month. Businesses shuttered.
And? How is that supposed to establish the existence of a deadly virus upon whose presumed existence this behaviour is based?
QuoteWhile it is not the zombie apocalypse, it is not a controlled experiment either. It is an outbreak of a new disease and probably one that will stay endemic in the population and over time kill off 30 times as many over 65s than the flu does.
You haven't shown that "coronavirus" has killed anyone.
Quote
Your assessement from a mere 10 days ago was wrong.
You haven't shown that.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: abc123 on March 01, 2020, 05:38:23 AM
I only wonder in a few months when people start to ask "whatever happened to coronavirus?" If those who are fear mongering will admit they were once again duped by a controlled experiment to see how easily the masses can be manipulated and controlled.
Over 600 dead in Italy. No flights to the USA from mainland Europe 26 countries for a month. Businesses shuttered.
While it is not the zombie apocalypse, it is not a controlled experiment either. It is an outbreak of a new disease and probably one that will stay endemic in the population and over time kill off 30 times as many over 65s than the flu does.
Your assessement from a mere 10 days ago was wrong.
I don't believe so. The number of deaths being blamed on Coronavirus only equals a pandemic because that is the media narrative. The economic and societal upheaving is a direct result of fear mongering, not facts.
https://youtu.be/XPpzHYKpndk
A pandemic is a spreading disease on more than one continent. Has nothing to do with the age or number of people who die.
Nobody in 1 years time is going to say "whatever happended to the Coronavirus". It is already past that point and still spreading. People are off work, have cancelled holidays, business trips and if you work in travel or tourism or hospitality this will make you or someone you know unemployed for 6 to 12 months.
Economic fallout could very well be worse than 2008.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 04:50:12 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 12, 2020, 04:44:35 AM
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 02:17:21 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 12, 2020, 02:01:16 AM
MaximGun,
A noble, but guaranteed to fail, effort. This isn't about reason but emotion.
He has been through the denial stage. We have then seen the anger from him..... what is next?
Arthur Schopenhauer
https://youtu.be/t4N09qsMdPQ
Yes, trust the WHO. Line up for your polio vaccine.
You should watch a video before judging it.
I did watch the opening. At last he WHO are reacting like they ought to have to the viral apocalypse. I'm not sitting through 40 minutes of pseudoscientific fear porn. Show me where he presents data for the existence and pathogenesis of coronavirus and its isolation and what tests have been conducted to show its killing people in this proposed pandemic, or stop wasting my time.
QuoteHe says the opposite of your assumption you arrogant twerp.
Another tough guy ...
Quote from: MaximGun on March 12, 2020, 05:17:14 AM
A pandemic is a spreading disease on more than one continent. Has nothing to do with the age or number of people who die.
It certainly has to do with numbers sick.
QuoteNobody in 1 years time is going to say "whatever happended to the Coronavirus". It is already past that point and still spreading.
Now that the narrative is so firmly established by government and media, yes, cases of intersection with this set of symptoms in future will likely be attributed to this imaginary cause of disease, at least for the time being. Of course this gradually will drop off once "testing" drops off.
QuotePeople are off work, have cancelled holidays, business trips and if you work in travel or tourism or hospitality this will make you or someone you know unemployed for 6 to 12 months.
Not because tens of thousands of workers are sick.
Its happening I think in Italy.
Kreuz whether you believe the virus is deadly is up to you, the fallout is real though.
I have attached a video I received via Whats app and being a dumb idiot I can't seem to upload properly. Click and download, its only a couple of minutes but it shows you whats coming.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 11, 2020, 10:47:58 PM
Look at the main players in this "virus" game. If any of you think about getting a vaccine from these imps then think twice before doing so. We should rather fear what they are up to and what changes they want to bring about.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/ncov-2019-coronavirus-time-line/5705776a
Also We should definitely get ready for a police state or something similar to what is going on in China so it is smart to get extra food stashed awayd.
Correcting the link.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/ncov-2019-coronavirus-time-line/5705776
So should it be called the Johns Hopkins Center/World Economic Forum/Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation pandemic?
Quote from: diaduit on March 12, 2020, 05:32:55 AM
Its happening I think in Italy.
Kreuz whether you believe the virus is deadly is up to you, the fallout is real though.
I have attached a video I received via Whats app and being a dumb idiot I can't seem to upload properly. Click and download, its only a couple of minutes but it shows you whats coming.
Well, yes. If you mass quarantine people, you get this.
[yt]http://youtu.be/XPpzHYKpndk[/yt]
:cheeseheadbeer: just saw its already here....durh... :cheeseheadbeer:...well, here it is again!
If it weren't for government and corporate media, no man in the street would even suspect there is a deadly global pandemic and markets wouldn't have tanked. This thing, even if there were anything to it, would have gone as unnoticed as seasonal flu.
The first thing I notice about these case and death figures being touted is the total lack of any error estimates or indication of the accuracy of diagnoses. How much could they be off by? If you can't tell me, even assuming your test does what you claim it to do, the data is worthless to me. The second is the ridiculous disparity in the fatality rates among countries, particularly Italy's. It's supposedly 6.6% in Italy, 170% higher than in China, where in other Western countries it's a fraction of that. Now you're going to tell me that Italy's medical care is worse than China's? And so much worse than Germany's that it has 43 times the fatality rate given six times the number of cases? We can't argue logistical stress yet with only 12,000 cases. Assuming these figures are even honest, it looks far more to me like these discrepancies are due to endemic problems that are the real cause of these people being ill and high error margins and subjectivity in diagnosis. That's if they are honest, and it's a big if to me in the case of Italy, even if I'm willing to believe they are among the most incompetent medical professionals in the world. Now, some will want to say China are lying, but is Germany lying too then with 1,966 cases and only 3 deaths?
Government announced less than an hour ago , were shutting down schools, creches etc. Within 5 mins supermarkets were buzzing, my dh got the last two packet of beef burgers butcher packed. I've order and paid for chicken fillets and more mince from my local rural butcher.
It has now started here in Ireland.
Can't dial or receive calls on my ordinary network,.only able to use WhatsApp!!! Friends the same ..
.weird but could be just a glitch
QuoteI'm in the same camp as Kreuzritter so ill offer my own criteria:
When (it won't) "coronavirus" reaches and surpasses the body count that the Flu
But you aren't. He doesn't believe in the flu. Or chickenpox.
That being said, define this "camp" you are in. Are you saying there is a great conspiracy of Italian doctors claiming falsely that their ICUs are now full? That the patients in hallways on ventilators are crisis actors?
Now here's a surprise. Postponing Brexit negotiations because of the virus is on the cards. Never let a crisis go to waste, eh.
I'm with Kreuzritter and other doubters on this. Except the virus panic isn't the cause of the tanking markets. It's the cover.
The markets were going to tumble anyway. They couldn't keep the balls in the air any more and they needed a reason to start locking everyone down before the big economic crash.
The Chinese demonstrated how effective excessive quarantine measures could be and now they have the falling infection rates to 'prove' it, don't they. So now Italy has followed suit and we're all being warned that we're next.
So there you go. The markets were going to crash anyway, and thanks to corona, entire populations will already be locked down when it happens.
Will the inevitable vaccine be compulsory? Or will those who have had it receive a mark on their hand without which no-one can buy or sell?
Countries that moved the fastest with basic precautionary measures are now the safest. In India, total number of CoronaVirus Cases are now 74. Italy seems to be among the worst hit. People were living in denial for weeks, without wanting to go into a safe and necessary quarantine.
Conspiracy theories beyond this point are rather absurd. People manifest demonstrably similar symptoms after being in contact with infected persons. I think when such has been the case worldwide, we have a right to be at least as skeptical of the conspiracy theories as we are of anything else. Time will tell more of course. I do not believe the disease is a conspiracy. It is clearly real and has plainly had harmful effects in many countries.
The Hong Kong Doctor interviewed in the 60 Minutes Video posted earlier said that if humanity moves quickly and are very fortunate we may still have a small chance of containing it. Otherwise, he said, we're looking at some 45 million deaths worldwide in the first phase of the virus. This is one of the world's best experts on the subject speaking. Let's see who was right.
I know we are long past the point where anyone really cares about internet etiquette, but really!
Double posting, sure sometimes it happens, but triple, quadruple, even quintuple posting?
Spam spam spam. :( If you don't know how to combine your posts, learn how.
At $31 a barrel currently, Oil will likely reach its lowest point in decades soon.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/oil-price?type=wti
Edit: First death in India due to the coronavirus some time ago. Prayers for all affected.
Quote from: james03 on March 12, 2020, 08:05:51 AM
QuoteI'm in the same camp as Kreuzritter so ill offer my own criteria:
When (it won't) "coronavirus" reaches and surpasses the body count that the Flu
But you aren't. He doesn't believe in the flu. Or chickenpox.
That being said, define this "camp" you are in. Are you saying there is a great conspiracy of Italian doctors claiming falsely that their ICUs are now full? That the patients in hallways on ventilators are crisis actors?
a) What verifiable doctors? No, someone appearing in the media or some guy on Twitter you'd never heard of before a week ago doesn't count.
b) How does the situation compare with the Italian norm?
c) Do you have any knowledge of the conditions apart from second- or third-hand reports and news footage?
d) How do these witnesses, if genuine, know what PCR and antibody tests cannot tell them?
e) Do you also believe Pearl Harbour was a surprise, that a vaccine eliminated polio, that Neil Armstrong landed on the Moon in a tin can wrapped in gold foil, that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman, that there were WMDs in Iraq, that Assad gassed civilians and that man-made climate change and global warming are a reality?
QuoteAre you saying there is a great conspiracy of Italian doctors claiming falsely that their ICUs are now full?
This line of argumentation is the favourite straw man of the anti-conspiracy-theorists.
Remember this one, where the BBC demonstrably faked footage of a chemical weapons attack aftermath? And used it twice, changing some words?
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxCxwJkhAPw[/yt]
Or these ones from CNN?
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smWfMNDsHbk[/yt]
Or this one from NASA, where they filmed from low Earth orbit through a round window to make it look like footage of the planet from deep space? Looks like youtube let the behind the scenes recordings that busted them on that one disappear down the memory hole.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrFFbyuQqt4[/yt]
You say government, corporate media and mainstream "science" and I say what are they lying about now?
Oh brother.
Do the few of you who think this is all made up REALLY think that only you few people on this planet are smart enough to have figured this out?
I'm really curious as to what you guys do for a living?
By the way, whoever the dumbass is that thought we were going to war with Iran a couple months ago, can you raise your hand? I haven't forgotten about that one. Nobody will ever take you guys seriously.
Quote from: Lambda Phage on March 12, 2020, 01:23:27 PM
Oh brother.
Do the few of you who think this is all made up REALLY think that only you few people on this planet are smart enough to have figured this out?
By the way, whoever the dumbass is that thought we were going to war with Iran a couple months ago, can you raise your hand? I haven't forgotten about that one. Nobody will ever take you guys seriously.
Thanks for demonstrating again that you have no argument and no grasp of logic.
QuoteDo the few of you who think this is all made up REALLY think that only you few people on this planet are smart enough to have figured this out?
I really curious as to whether or not you think this constitutes and actual argumentative objection. I'm also curious as to whether you're self-aware enough to see the laughable hypocrisy of a traditional Catholic, one of a tiny minority who cling to truth claims which the overwhelming majority of mankind explicitly deny, saying it.
Quote from: Lambda Phage on March 12, 2020, 01:23:27 PM
Oh brother.
Do the few of you who think this is all made up REALLY think that only you few people on this planet are smart enough to have figured this out?
I'm really curious as to what you guys do for a living?
By the way, whoever the dumbass is that thought we were going to war with Iran a couple months ago, can you raise your hand? I haven't forgotten about that one. Nobody will ever take you guys seriously.
I don't recall anybody saying this is "all made up." I also don't think we are the only ones who think this is a media driven click bait crisis.
People are getting sick. But the level of panic and fear seems to be driven more by headlines than facts.
I'm surprised that trads, who normally question what the media feeds, us are swallowing this one book, line and sinker.
Though I seem to recall from some of your previous posts that you get annoyed at anyone questioning official media narratives on a host of issues so I'm not surprised at your attitude here.
Quote from: abc123 on March 12, 2020, 02:42:08 PM
People are getting sick. But the level of panic and fear seems to be driven more by headlines than facts.
The latter is indisputably true going by the official figures for infections and deaths and
who is dying. But it's not just driven by headlines but also by government measures. Italy quarantining 16 million people and ordering businesses like stores, restaurants, etc.to close is insanity, the self-destruction of an economy for the sake of trying to prevent deaths of the elderly and terminally ill.
QuoteThough I seem to recall from some of your previous posts that you get annoyed at anyone questioning official media narratives on a host of issues so I'm not surprised at your attitude here.
Oh, if you dare question the version of vents and ideas he subscribes to, if you dare even suggest that mainstream narratives could be wrong or, worse, deliberate false constructs, you're some kind of gnostic. Then again, these days I don't think those gnostics were all as bad as they're made out to be, so whatever.
Now the Dow is dropping like flies.
QuoteBlack Thursday: "One Giant Margin Call" Drags Dow Down 10%
"The fact that Treasuries, munis, and gold are getting hit tells me that everything is for sale right now. One giant margin call where even the safe-havens aren't safe anymore. Except for cash."
The Fed unveiled an unprecedented liquidity facility to rescue malfunction Treasury markets from themselves.. but it failed terribly.
The chaos in Treasury markets - which The Fed hoped to fix with its $4 trillion bazooka - remain as liquidity evaporated again and yields soared into the close, despite equity ugliness.
Gold was smashed lower today on massive volume as it seems the "liquidate eveything" plan is in play.
And if none of that worries you - this might. USA's sovereign credit risk is rising notably.
Treasuries going illiquid. Heavens to Betsy that is impossible! But it is true.
If this continues, the Government will be bankrupt within months. Next hyper-inflation.
Dementia Joe will then be the next president. Bye, bye Stormy Donald.
The silent majority will have wished they had gone on a rampage when abortion in 1971 was voted in by those lawyers in black robes.
Bubble has met its pin.
DOW
21,200.62
? 2,352.60 (9.99%)
NASDAQ
7,201.80
? 750.25 (9.43%)
S&P 500
2,480.64
? 260.74 (9.51%)
Here's how things are going down in South Africa.
If you have symptoms of cold and flu, it's just cold or flu. Unless you recently travelled to China, Italy, etc. Then they will PCR test you, best two out of three. 16 cases. 13 of 16 "asymptomatic". And the first case was tested again and is now supposedly negative.
What a joke.
The thing that bothers me the most, is that in Italy the older people & or people with underlying conditions are left to DIE!
I saw a video, interview of an Italian Doctor that clearly stated that if the hospital only has 1 ICU bed left,
1 ventilator left, and a younger person in their 30's needs it, as well as a 50 or 60 year old (forget a 70 or 80 year old :'() The hospital will choose the younger person. :pray2:
So, the high number of deaths in Italy is due to the hospitals being swamped, not enough Doctors, nurses, ICU beds, ventilators, etc.
Death panels :'( They are selecting who can live or die...
God helps us all! :pray2:
https://youtu.be/gYNUOkqzcVA
QuoteThis line of argumentation is the favourite straw man of the anti-conspiracy-theorists.
No, it's a serious question. Throwing darts is easy. Tell us your theory of what is going on at Italian hospitals.
QuoteI'm surprised that trads, who normally question what the media feeds, us are swallowing this one book, line and sinker.
What are you even talking about? The themes have been:
1. Stock up by buying what you would eat anyhow, because you could end up in quarantine.
2. For healthy people, expect this to be like the flu.
3. The main threat is economic. Raise your savings.
On point 3, the stock market wipe out is going to bankrupt pension funds. The main driver of growth in the U.S., oil, has been wiped out. We will definitely get a recession out of this. Then there are the airlines.
One thing, now is the time to lock in home heating oil if that is what you use to heat your house. Fill up the tank.
How Coronavirus Kills: Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS) & Treatment[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okg7uq_HrhQ[/yt]
How Coronavirus causes fatalities from acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) by pulmonologist Dr. Seheult of https://www.medcram.com. This video illustrates how viruses can cause pneumonia or widespread lung inflammation resulting in ARDS. Includes evidenced-based ARDS treatment breakthrough strategies: Low tidal volume ventilation, paralysis, and prone positioning.
See our first 3 videos on the novel coronavirus:
1. Coronavirus outbreak, transmission, and pathophysiology:
[yt]https://youtu.be/9vMXSkKLg2I[/yt]
2. Coronavirus symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment:
[yt]https://youtu.be/UCG3xqtcL3c[/yt]
3. Coronavirus Update 3: Spread, Quarantine, Projections, & Vaccine:
[yt]https://youtu.be/SJBYwUtB83o[/yt]
If we will heed the warnings of the Italian people, the time to act pre-emptively and more strongly to defeat the virus is right now.
A couple of perspectives: https://theintercept.com/2020/03/12/italy-coronavirus-united-states-preparedness/
"Why I'd Rather Be in Italy for the Coronavirus Pandemic
"I HAVE SPENT the last week looking for flights from New York to Italy — not because of coronavirus-inspired flash sales, but because I would rather go home to a country that's currently in the grip of one of the worst outbreaks in the world than stay in the United States, where life is about to get infinitely worse.
More than 15,000 people have tested positive for the new coronavirus in Italy, more than 1,000 have died, and hospitals are at a breaking point. Hundreds of medical staff have been infected, and overwhelmed doctors are reporting having to choose which patients to treat. They are begging the rest of the world to take this virus more seriously. The entire country — 60.5 million people — has been on lockdown for almost a week ...
And: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/12/coronavirus-new-york-will-see-same-trajectory-of-cases-as-china-south-korea-and-italy-gov-cuomo-says.html
"Cuomo said the state was trying to limit the contagion by reducing "density," or events where a large number of people gather in a close environment. There are currently at least 328 confirmed cases in New York, he said, adding that if the state's actual cases were "10 times that, I would not be surprised."
He said there is no end date for the new rules and they will be "recalibrated" to the spread of the virus and the treatment of the virus.
"Obviously, we all want to get back to work as soon as possible," Cuomo said. "As soon as we go back to normal, we will go back to normal. But we are still ascending, right. We are still ascending on the upward trajectory of this disease."
Quote from: Graham on January 25, 2020, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on January 25, 2020, 10:05:31 AM
Good take by that Cheeky Coot, Derbyshire:
https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/america-catches-coronavirus-panic/
This take is dead wrong. Potential pandemics are a kind of risk that's vastly ameliorated by public concern and swift action. Being beaten by a Chinese prison guard may currently be causing more deaths, but it's a health risk that doesnt have the potential to spread geometrically across the globe in a matter of months. Comparing the two makes him look dumb.
Looks like Graham is correct.
Italy: 15,000 cases, 1,000 dead
USA: 1675 cases, 40 dead.
I have to get more rabid in my prognostications. I was calling for 1500 by Sunday.
At this rate we'll be pushing 10,000 a week from Sunday.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Infections: 134,513
Deaths: 4,970
Critical: 5,994
Countries: 125
So we're nearing 5000 deaths and a further 6000 in a critical condition, who may be in danger of death. Less than 2 months ago, we were at 26 deaths in only one single country and several hundred people infected. Let's hope the trajectory of the virus is stopped or at least slowed down, but if not, we could be looking at tens of millions of infections a couple of months from now. If from 25 deaths in one country, it can speed up to 5000 deaths in 125 countries at 2 months, now that the virus is in 125 countries, how much faster is it likely to spread, unless precautions are taken?
Uploaded today.
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 35: New Outbreaks & Travel Restrictions, Possible COVID-19 Treatments
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE4_LsftNKM[/yt]
The World Health Organization has labeled COVID-19 a pandemic. There are multiple developments globally and in the United States where President Trump has banned incoming travel from most of Europe. Dr. Seheult discusses compelling data about hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil), Zinc, and possible COVID-19 supplements such as quercetin.
Quote from: Christe Eleison on March 12, 2020, 03:45:55 PM
The thing that bothers me the most, is that in Italy the older people & or people with underlying conditions are left to DIE!
I saw a video, interview of an Italian Doctor that clearly stated that if the hospital only has 1 ICU bed left,
1 ventilator left, and a younger person in their 30's needs it, as well as a 50 or 60 year old (forget a 70 or 80 year old :'() The hospital will choose the younger person. :pray2:
So, the high number of deaths in Italy is due to the hospitals being swamped, not enough Doctors, nurses, ICU beds, ventilators, etc.
Death panels :'( They are selecting who can live or die...
God helps us all! :pray2:
It's certainly a sad state, but there are not infinite beds and decisions have to be made. What we should take from this is a renewed appreciation of why swift action on pandemic events is so prudent, and why arguments like "dont worry as long as you're young and healthy" are so blinkered. Hospital systems are pretty fragile.
Edit: I think the quoted argument (which not many are trotting out anymore) is selfish in two ways. In the obvious way, which encourages people not to care so long as they themselves are not in immediate danger. And secondly, by overlooking the collective and systemic nature of a pandemic threat. Midwit westerners are really not equipped to understand problems of that nature until they're beaten over the head with them. This is why practically nobody was discussing hospital overload, and the resulting spill of difficult consequences including butally realistic triage, until it became obvious in Italy.
If we take deaths+critical together, it's near 10% dead or near death; and if there wasn't attention devoted to it, it could be 20% or higher. Anyway, there's a hope, and it's probably just a desperate hope at this point, but a hope that the virus could not thrive as effectively in the hotter months.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/12/asia/coronavirus-flu-weather-temperature-intl-hnk/index.html
"Hong Kong (CNN)As the novel coronavirus began spreading around the world this year, one common refrain from skeptics of the emergency measures being put in place to stop the outbreak was that it was just like the flu -- dangerous to sensitive groups but routine and not something to get into lockdown over.
We now know that assessment is wrong. At its lowest estimated fatality rate based on current data, Covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus, is thought to kill some 1-2% of known patients, compared to around 0.1% for winter influenza. The coronavirus also appears to be about as infectious as the flu, and potentially more so, especially as there are no specific treatment, cure or seasonal vaccine.
There is one area in which experts hope the virus will still behave like influenza, however, by tapering off in spring.
"This is a respiratory virus and they always give us trouble during cold weather, for obvious reasons," Nelson Michael, a leading US military medical researcher, said of the novel coronavirus last week. "We're all inside, the windows are closed, etcetera, so we typically call that the influenza or the flu season."
Influenza thrives in cold and dry conditions, which is why winter is flu season for much of the northern hemisphere. Behavioral differences in winter can also have an effect. Michael predicted the coronavirus may behave like the flu and give us "less trouble as the weather warms up," but, he cautioned, it could come back when the weather gets cold again.
The hope is that, along with radical action by governments and the public to decrease the number of new cases, reduced spread during warmer weather would give health systems space to cope with the initial influx of coronavirus patients, and buy time for a potential vaccine to be developed.
"This is why it's really important to understand that a lot of what we're doing now is getting ourselves ready for what we're calling the second wave of this," Michael warned.
But what if the virus does not behave like influenza? Could we be dealing with infection rates that remain high throughout the year?
More than 100 cases have been confirmed in Singapore, where it's hot and muggy pretty much year round. Australia, Brazil and Argentina, all currently in the middle of summer, have also reported dozens of cases.
Unknown unknowns
There is evidence to suggest the coronavirus does particularly well in certain climates.
Some of the worst hit areas around the world -- from Wuhan, where the virus was first detected, to Iran, Italy and South Korea -- are on more or less the same latitude, with similar temperatures and relative humidity. Researchers at the University of Maryland (UM) have even used this data to attempt to map out other parts of the world that could be at risk of imminent outbreaks.
Though the research remains preliminary, data from the UM study suggests that certain climatic conditions, while not determining whether the virus can survive, may help accelerate its spread.
"In addition to having similar average temperature, humidity, and latitude profiles, (locations along latitude 30-50°N) also exhibit a commonality in that the timing of the outbreak coincides with a nadir in the yearly temperature cycle, and thus with relatively stable temperatures over a more than a one month period of time," the authors wrote.
Brittany Kmush, a public health expert at New York's Syracuse University, who was not involved in the UM study, said that "influenza and other coronaviruses that infect humans tend to follow a seasonality, with cases peaking in the winter months in the northern hemisphere. However, we don't know if this virus will follow a similar seasonality pattern."
David Cennimo, who studies infectious diseases at Rutgers New Jersey Medical School, said that many experts "hope -- and I think the correct word is hope -- that the summer will push down the case numbers," though he added that "the data from tropical countries may rain on this hope somewhat."
However, both Cennimo and Kmush cautioned against drawing too many conclusions from the geographical data, pointing to the many unknowns that remain about the virus itself and its spread in recent months.
"The question is, are (tropical cases) travel associated, connected to a known case, or cases of unknown origin," Kmush said. "If there is seasonality, we would expect connected cases and cases of unknown origin to decrease as the temperature becomes warmer. I think it is really too soon to tell if we are going to see a seasonal pattern with Covid-19 or not."
Debra Chew, an assistant professor of medicine at Rutgers, agreed that the lack of understanding of the virus and how it behaves makes predicting anything like seasonality largely impossible at this point.
"The dynamics for control of the epidemic may rely on factors that influence transmission of the virus such as infectiousness and spread or the virus by persons having mild or no symptoms, or by behaviors to reduce the spread of the virus," she said. "We are not dealing with a virus like influenza that behaves predictably every year."
Seasonal scare?
Even as cases of the coronavirus have spiked alarmingly in many countries this week, there has also been a glimmer of good news. Outbreaks in both China and South Korea, previously two of the worst hit countries, appear to be stabilizing, with fewer new cases week on week. That is thanks to prolonged intervention by health authorities, including a combination of lockdowns, travel restrictions and encouraging people to work from home and exercise social distancing, as well as helping to educate the public on the need for strict sanitization protocols.
It remains to be seen though, as areas that were at the forefront of the outbreak begin relaxing restrictions, whether cases will climb again, or if the virus is truly under control. As other parts of the world only just ramp up actions to deal with it, many hope they will get a boost from warming weather. However, even if they do, this may not mean the virus is done with us.
"There really still is so much unknown about this virus," Kmush said. "If case numbers decrease over the summer, it is a good idea to prepare for a resurgence during the colder months."
The numbers do not matter much because the testing is 1) not being done 2) its unreliable anyways and 3) maybe does not test for the proper thing anyways. It is also easily covered up such as during the Spanish Flu, or on the other end of the spectrum, made exaggerated by the media such as ebola.
(there, have I covered all my bases so both sides are happy?)
What we need to look for are widespread stories from across the planet made by reliable people that the hospitals are overflowing with people and that people are dying of ARDS in the hallways or at home after being turned away. Whatever number it is assigned to this "event" is not the key. If this "event" is significant enough to (more or less) overwhelm the global healthcare system and result in many sudden ARDS deaths (people dying while gasping for air en masse in hospital hallways) then the "event" was as worthy of preparation as we've been warning of. If this is never heard of (despite it already being heard of in Italy and China) then it was all a bunch of hocus pocus and we misread the entire situation.
I will note however that human action affects the spread of contagious things. People severely limiting human interaction via mass quarantines changes outcomes. So, it is also very possible that we will get raging problems in a few global cities, but then mass global quarantines prevent the same disaster from happening in every city. In such an outcome, we were still right for our warning (and it was only that the world took it seriously that the worst outcome did not come to be).
Separately, the financial system is in direct threat now. The Fed is putting $1.5 trillion into the markets and they sold off even further. This indicates that the central banks have lost control and now its all set up for a true banking disaster. I expect there to be a market and bank holiday soon (financial markets and banks closed). You will want to have some cash at home to facilitate purchases. If I am wrong, it hardly hurts you to have cash at home (unless you get robbed).
[by the way, I continue to believe this is a viral pandemic with about 1% fatality rate, 5% serious complications (ICU) rate]
I wonder how much longer some people are going to be in denial. CNN report on us states: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/12/us/states-responses-to-coronavirus/index.html
"Washington state
This is where the first US case and the first US death from coronavirus were reported. Now, Washington has more than 370 cases of coronavirus and at least 31 deaths.
At least 11 nursing homes have been hit with the disease, including one linked to 19 deaths.
Gov. Jay Inslee has banned large events with more than 250 people in King, Snohomish and Pierce counties, which include Seattle.
He directed homes and assisted living facilities to limit the number of visitors, keep visitors in patient rooms and screen workers every shift for coronavirus symptoms. The rules are in place until midnight April 9.
"This is an unprecedented public health situation," Inslee said. "One main defense is to reduce the interaction of people in our lives."
New York
On Thursday, Gov. Andrew Cuomo banned all gatherings of more than 500 people, and New York City declared a state of emergency.
Following Cuomo's mandate, the Broadway League announced all Broadway shows will be suspended through April 12.
The move comes in "support of the health and well-being of the theatre going public, as well as those who work in the theatre industry," the League said in a statement.
Earlier this week, Cuomo ordered a 1-mile containment zone in the suburb of New Rochelle. There have been over 100 cases of coronavirus reported in the city, which is home to about 80,000 people.
Schools, houses of worship and other places used for large gatherings will be closed for two weeks, Cuomo said.
The National Guard will be deployed to clean public areas within the containment area and deliver food to homes. And a satellite testing facility will be set up in partnership with Northwell Health.
What life is like inside the containment zone in New Rochelle
The outbreak in New Rochelle started with one resident, an attorney who works in Manhattan, and spread to 100 people in less than 10 days.
California
All public gatherings should be postponed or canceled until at least the end of March, Gov. Gavin Newsom said in a statement.
A state-by-state breakdown of US coronavirus cases
California has at least 144 cases of coronavirus, including four deaths.
The governor's office said those unable to work because they're taking care of a family member who's quarantined or sick with coronavirus can file a paid family leave claim if they have medical documentation.
Newsom declared a state of emergency, which will "protect consumers against price gouging, allow for health care workers to come from out of state to assist at health care facilities, and give health care facilities the flexibility to plan and adapt to accommodate incoming patients," the governor's office said.
Massachusetts
Gov. Charlie Baker also declared a state of emergency.
The state says it has at least 108 cases of coronavirus, including at least 82 linked to Biogen employees.
The governor also issued guidance for Massachusetts' executive branch, including canceling out-of-state travel for work, canceling gatherings in favor of virtual conferences, and encouraging employees to not come in to work with fever or flu symptoms.
That guidance will be re-evaluated in a month or sooner if circumstances change.
And the state's education department "is providing local schools with relief from attendance and school year requirements so that schools have the flexibility to make decisions on temporary closures," the governor's office said."
https://onepeterfive.com/prudence-and-pandemic-considerations-on-coronavirus/
"Why Coronavirus Is a Concern
Dr. Daniele Macchini, a doctor at Humanitas Gavazzeni hospital Bergamo, Italy, posted a long message (original in Italian here) on Facebook describing the situation in his facility that has now been widely shared. He describes how his entire hospital has been converted into an urgent care center for those infected. He writes:
The situation is now nothing short of dramatic. No other words come to mind. The war has literally exploded and the battles are uninterrupted day and night. One after the other the unfortunate poor people come to the emergency room. They have far from the complications of a flu. Let's stop saying it's a bad flu. In these 2 years I have learned that the people of Bergamo do not come to the emergency room at all. They did well this time too. They followed all the indications given: a week or ten days at home with a fever without going out and risking contagion, but now they can't take it anymore. They don't breathe enough, they need oxygen.
Here, Dr. Macchini addresses something I've been hearing a lot: "It's no worse than the flu." Clearly, his experience is different. (And while it's hard to take anything Chinese officials say without some skepticism, the Chinese CDC are now reporting that in fact, coronavirus is "about 20 times more deadly than the common flu.")
Macchini continues his assessment, focusing on the difficulty of treating this new illness, and the way in which it is overloading the Italian health care system:
Drug therapies for this virus are few. The course mainly depends on our organism. We can only support it when it can't take it anymore. It is mainly hoped that our body will eradicate the virus on its own, let's face it. Antiviral therapies are experimental on this virus and we learn its behavior day after day. Staying at home until the symptoms worsen does not change the prognosis of the disease.
Now, however, that need for beds in all its drama has arrived. One after another, the departments that had been emptied are filling up at an impressive rate. The display boards with the names of the sick, of different colors depending on the operating unit they belong to, are now all red and instead of the surgical operation there is the diagnosis, which is always the same curse: bilateral interstitial pneumonia.
According to Dr. Macchini, the virus is destroying the protective barriers of the respiratory tract, allowing bacteria to invade the bronchi and lungs. An article in National Geographic says that in addition, with coronavirus, the immune response can go "haywire" and kill the healthy tissues that would otherwise help to clear the infection out.
Pneumonia fills the lungs with fluid and debris. And the coronavirus, like SARS, because of immune overreaction, can cause permanent damage, eating holes in lung tissue, causing inflammation and more fluid buildup. This makes it so people can't breathe. In severe cases, it can lead to respiratory failure and death.
Basically, you drown. Not a pleasant way to go.
Dr. Macchini continues:
While there are still people on social networks who pride themselves on not being afraid by ignoring the indications, protesting that their normal lifestyle habits are "temporarily" in crisis, the epidemiological disaster is taking place. And there are no more surgeons, urologists, orthopedists, we are only doctors who suddenly become part of a single team to face this tsunami that has overwhelmed us. The cases multiply, we arrive at the rate of 15–20 hospitalizations a day all for the same reason. The results of the swabs now come one after the other: positive, positive, positive. Suddenly the emergency room is collapsing. ...
So have patience, too, that you cannot go to the theater, museums or gym. Try to have mercy on that myriad of older people you could exterminate. It is not your fault, I know, but of those who put it in your head that you are exaggerating and even this testimony may seem like an exaggeration for those who are far from the epidemic, but please, listen to us, try to leave the house only to indispensable things.
Just got filled on my first stock purchase. I don't make recommendations, but on this one, if the dividend gets cut in half, I'm still smiling. So on the bright side, if you have cash, you should be able to pick up some high dividend stocks. I think in this sell off wave, we get down to around 2200. I think the bottom will be around 1800 (very rough numbers), so yeah, I'm early. But I'm after the dividend.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/coronavirus-causes-effects-real-danger-agenda-id2020/5706153
The Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic: The Real Danger is "Agenda ID2020"
What is the infamous ID2020? It is an alliance of public-private partners, including UN agencies and civil society. It's an electronic ID program that uses generalized vaccination as a platform for digital identity.
By Peter Koenig
Global Research, March 12, 2020
It seems, the more there is written about the causes of the Coronavirus – the more the written analyses are overshadowed by a propaganda and fear-mongering hype. Questions for the truth and arguments for where to look for the origins and how the virus may have spread and how to combat it, are lost in the noise of wanton chaos. But isn't that what the "Black Men" behind this intended pandemic want – chaos, panic, hopelessness, leading to human vulnerability – a people becoming easy prey for manipulation?
Today WHO declared the coronavirus COVID-19 a "pandemic" – when there is not the slightest trace of a pandemic. A pandemic might be the condition, when the death to infection rate reaches more than 12%. In Europe, the death rate is about 0.4%, or less. Except for Italy which is a special case, where the peak of the death rate was 6% (see below for further analysis).
China, where the death rate peaked only a few weeks ago at about 3%, is back to 0.7% – and rapidly declining, while China is taking full control of the disease – and that with the help of a not-spoken-about medication developed 39 years ago by Cuba, called "Interferon Alpha 2B (IFNrec)", very effective for fighting viruses and other diseases, but is not known and used in the world, because the US under the illegal embargo of Cuba does not allow the medication to be marketed internationally.
WHO has most likely received orders from "above", from those people who also manage Trump and the "leaders" (sic) of the European Union and her member countries, those who aim to control the world with force – the One World Order.
This has been on the drawing board for years. The final decision to go ahead NOW, was taken in January 2020 at the World Economic Forum (WEF) in Davos – behind very much closed doors, of course. The Gates, GAVI (an association of vaccination-promoting pharmaceuticals), Rockefellers, Rothschilds et al, they are all behind this decision – the implementation of Agenda ID2020 – see below.
After the pandemic has been officially declared, the next step may be – also at the recommendation either by WHO, or individual countries, "force vaccination", under police and/or military surveillance. Those who refuse may be penalized (fines and / or jail – and force-vaccinated all the same).
If indeed force-vaccination will happen, another bonanza for Big Pharma, people really don't know what type of cocktail will be put into the vaccine, maybe a slow killer, that acts-up only in a few years – or a disease that hits only the next generation – or a brain debilitating agent, or a gene that renders women infertile .... all is possible – always with the aim of full population control and population reduction. In a few years' time, one doesn't know, of course, where the disease comes from. That's the level of technology our bio-war labs have reached (US, UK, Israel, Canada, Australia...).
Another hypothesis, at this point only a hypothesis, but a realistic one, is that along with the vaccination – if not with this one, then possibly with a later one, a nano-chip may be injected, unknown to the person being vaccinated. The chip may be remotely charged with all your personal data, including bank accounts – digital money. Yes, digital money that's what "they" are aiming at, so you really have no control any more over your health and other intimate data, but also over your earnings and spending. Your money could be blocked, or taken away – as a 'sanction' for misbehavior, for swimming against the stream. You may become a mere slave of the masters. Comparatively, feudalism may appear like a walk in the park.
It's not for nothing that Dr. Tedros, DG of WHO, said a few days ago, we must move towards digital money, because physical paper and coin money can spread diseases, especially endemic diseases, like the coronavirus. A precursor for things to come? – Or for things already here? – In many Scandinavian countries cash is largely banned and even a bar of chocalate can be paid only electronically.
We are moving towards a totalitarian state of the world. This is part of Agenda ID2020 – and these steps to be implemented now – prepared since long, including by the coronavirus computer simulation at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore on 18 October 2019, sponsored by the WEF and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
Bill Gates, one of the chief advocates of vaccinations for everybody, especially in Africa – is also a huge advocate of population reduction. Population reduction is among the goals of the elite within the WEF, the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Morgens – and a few more. The objective: fewer people (a small elite) can live longer and better with the reduced and limited resources Mother Earth is generously offering.
This had openly been propagated already in the 1960s and 70s by Henry Kissinger, Foreign Secretary in de Nixon Administration, a co-engineer of the Vietnam war, and main responsible for the semi-clandestine bombing of Cambodia, a genocide of millions of unarmed Cambodian civilians. Along with the CIA-Kissinger engineered coup on 9/11, 1973, in Chile, killing the democratically elected Salvador Allende and putting the military dictator Pinochet in power, Kissinger has committed war crimes. Today, he is a spokesman (so to speak) for Rockefeller and their "Bilderberger Society".
Coronavirus Outbreak, a Global Public Health Emergency?
Two weeks after the computer simulation at Johns Hopkins Medical Center in Baltimore, Maryland, that "produced" (aka simulated) 65 million deaths (!), the COVID-19 virus first appeared in Wuhan. By now it is almost certain that the virus was brought to Wuhan from outside, most likely from a bio-war lab in the US. See also this and this.
*
What is the infamous ID2020? It is an alliance of public-private partners, including UN agencies and civil society. It's an electronic ID program that uses generalized vaccination as a platform for digital identity. The program harnesses existing birth registration and vaccination operations to provide newborns with a portable and persistent biometrically-linked digital identity. GAVI, the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization, identifies itself on its website as a global health partnership of public and private sector organizations dedicated to "immunization for all". GAVI is supported by WHO, and needless to say, its main partners and sponsors are the pharma-industry.
The ID2020 Alliance at their 2019 Summit, entitled "Rising to the Good ID Challenge", in September 2019 in New York, decided to roll out their program in 2020, a decision confirmed by the WEF in January 2020 in Davos. Their digital identity program will be tested with the government of Bangladesh. GAVI, the Vaccine Alliance, and "partners from academia and humanitarian relief" (as they call it), are part of the pioneer party.
Is it just a coincidence that ID2020 is being rolled out at the onset of what WHO calls a Pandemic? – Or is a pandemic needed to 'roll out' the multiple devastating programs of ID2020?
Here is what Anir Chowdhury, policy advisor of the Bangladesh government program, has to say:
"We are implementing a forward-looking approach to digital identity that gives individuals control over their own personal information, while still building off existing systems and programs. The Government of Bangladesh recognizes that the design of digital identity systems carries far-reaching implications for individuals' access to services and livelihoods, and we are eager to pioneer this approach."
Wow! Does Mr. Anir Chowdhury know what he is getting into?
Back to the Pandemic and the panic. Geneva, the European seat of the United Nations, including the headquarters of WHO, is basically shot down. Not unlike the lock-down that started in Venice and later expanded to northern Italy until a few days ago – and now the lock-down covers all of Italy. Similar lock-down may soon also be adopted by France – and other European vassal states to the Anglo-Zionist empire.
Numerous memoranda with similar panic-mongering contents from different UN agencies in Geneva are circulating. Their key message is – cancel all mission travel, all events in Geneva, visits to the Palais des Nations, the Geneva Cathedral, other monuments and museums. The latest directives, many agencies instruct their staff to work from home, not to risk contamination from public transportation.
This ambiance of panic and fear – outstrips any sense of reality, when the truth doesn't matter. People can't even think any more about the causes and what may be behind it. Nobody believes you (anymore), when you refer to Event 201, the coronavirus simulation, the Wuhan Military Games, the closing last August 7, of the high-security biological war lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland.... what could have at one point been an eye opener for many, today is sheer conspiracy theory. The power of propaganda. A destabilizing power – destabilizing countries and people, destroying economies, creating hardship for people who may lose their jobs, usually the ones who can least afford it.
Also, at this time it becomes increasingly important to remind people that the outbreak in China was targeting the Chinese genome. Did it later mutate to transgress the 'borders' of Chinese DNA? When did that happen, if it happened? Because at the beginning it was clear that even the infected victims in other parts of the world, were to 99.9% of Chinese descent.
What happened later, when the virus spread to Italy and Iran, is another issue, and opens the way to a number of speculations.
(i) There were various strains of the virus circulated in sequence – so as to destabilize countries around the world and to confound the populace and media, so that especially nobody of the mainstream may come to the conclusion that the first strain was targeting China in a bio-war.
(ii) In Iran, I have a strong suspicion that the virus was an enhanced form of MERS (Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, man-made, broke out first in Saudi Arabia in 2012 , directed to the Arabic genome) – which was somehow introduced into government circles (by aerosol spray?) – with the goal of "Regime Change" by COVID19-caused death. Its Washington's wishful thinking for at least the last 30 years.
(iii) In Italy – why Italy? – Maybe because Washington / Brussels wanted to hit Italy hard for having been officially the first country to sign a Belt and Road (BRI) accord with China (actually the first was Greece, but nobody is supposed to know that China came to the rescue of Greece, destroyed by Greece's brothers, the EU members, mainly Germany and France).
(iv) The hype about the high death to infection rate in Italy, as of the time of this writing: 10,149 infections vs. 631 deaths = death rate of 6.2 (comparatively Iran: 8042 infections vs. 291 deaths = 3.6 death rate). The death rate of Italy is almost double that of Iran and almost ten-fold that of average Europe. (Are these discrepancies the result of failures in the establishing reliable data pertaining to "infections", see our observations pertaining to Italy below).
Why? – Was is Italy being affected with virus panic? Was there a much stronger strain introduced to Italy?
The common flu in Europe in the 2019 / 2020 season, has apparently so far killed about 16,000 (in the US the death toll is, according to CDC between 14,000 and 32,000, depending on which CDC website you look at).
Could it be that among the Italian coronavirus deaths there were also common flu victims, as the affected victims are mostly elderly with respiratory preconditions? Also, symptoms are very similar between coronavirus and the common flu, and nobody questions and checks the official authorities' narrative?
Maybe not all the coronavirus strains come from the same laboratory. A journalist from Berlin of Ukrainian origin, told me this morning that Ukraine is host to some 5 high security US bio-war labs. They test regularly new viruses on the population – yet, when strange diseases break out in the surroundings of the labs, nobody is allowed to talk about it. Something similar, she says, is happening in Georgia, where there are even more Pentagon / CIA bio-war labs – and where also new and strange diseases break out.
All of this makes the composite picture even more complicated. Overarching all is this super hype is profit driven, the quest for instant profit, instant benefits from the suffering of the people. This panic making is a hundred-fold of what it's worth. What these kingpins of the underworld, who pretend to run the upper world, perhaps miscalculated, is that in today's globalized and vastly outsourced world the west depends massively on China's supply chain, for consumer goods, and for intermediary merchandise – and, foremost for medication and medical equipment. At least 80% of medication or ingredients for medication, as well as for medical equipment comes from China. The western China dependence for antibiotics is even higher, some 90%. The potential impacts on health are devastating.
During the height of the COVID-19 epidemic China's production apparatus for everything was almost shut-down. For deliveries that were still made, merchandise vessels were regularly and categorically turned back from many harbors all around the world. So, the west has tricked itself into a shortage-of-everything mode by waging a de facto "economic war" on China. How long will it last? – Nobody knows, but China's economy which was down by about half, has rapidly recovered to above 80% of what it was before the coronavirus hit. How long will it last to catch up with the backlog?
What is behind it all? – A total crackdown with artificially induced panic to the point where people are screaming "help, give us vaccinations, display police and military for our security" – or even if the public despair doesn't go that far, it would be easy for the EU and US authorities to impose a military stage of siege for "health protection of the people". In fact, CDC (Center for Disease Control in Atlanta), has already designed harshly dictatorial directives for a "health emergency".
Along with forced vaccination, who knows what would be contained in the cocktail of ''mini-diseases" injected, and what their long-term effects might be. Similar to those of GMOs, where all sorts of germs could be inserted without us, the commons, knowing?
We may indeed be just at the beginning of the implementation of ID2020 – which includes, forced vaccination, population reduction and total digital control of everybody – on the way to One World Order – and global financial hegemony – Full Spectrum Dominance, as the PNAC (Plan for a New American Century) likes to call it.
A windfall for China. China has been purposely targeted for "economic destruction", because of her rapidly advancing economy, an economy soon to overtake that of the now hegemon, the US of A, and because of China's strong currency, the Yuan, also potentially overtaking the dollar as the world's main reserve currency.
Both occurrences would mean the end of US dominance over the world. The coronavirus disease, now in more than 80 countries, has crashed the stock markets, a decline of at least 20% over the last few weeks – and rising; the feared consequences from the virus of an economic slow-down, if not recession, has slashed petrol prices within about two weeks almost in half. However, without China's central bank interference, the Yuan's value vis-à-vis the dollar has been rather stable, at around 7 Yuan to the dollar. That means, the Chinese economy, despite COVID-19, is receiving still much trust around the globe.
Advice to China – buy all the US and European corporate shares you can at current rock-bottom prices from the stock markets that collapsed by a fifth or more, plus buy lots of oil futures. When the prices recover, you have not only made billions, probably trillions from the west, but you also may own or hold significant and influence-yielding amounts of shares in most of the largest US and European corporations – and will be able to help call the shots of their future endeavors.
There is however, one little silver lining oscillating at the horizon full of dark clouds. It could miraculously be an awakening of consciousness of a critical mass that could put an end to it all. Although, we seem to be far from such a miracle, somewhere in a hidden corner of our brain, we all have a spark of consciousness left. We have the spiritual capacity to abandon the disaster path of western neoliberal capitalism, and instead espouse solidarity, compassion and love for each other and for our society. That may be the only way to break the gridlock and doom of western egocentric greed.
In case anyone was wondering about what ARDS stands for, I believe it is
Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 12, 2020, 08:46:45 PM
In case anyone was wondering about what ARDS stands for, I believe it is
Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome.
Yes, it's how the virus usually kills.
Dr. Seheult's videos I posted on reply #534 go more in-depth into this issue.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 12, 2020, 07:29:24 PM
We are moving towards a totalitarian state of the world. This is part of Agenda ID2020 – and these steps to be implemented now – prepared since long, including by the coronavirus computer simulation at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore on 18 October 2019, sponsored by the WEF and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.....
...... We may indeed be just at the beginning of the implementation of ID2020 – which includes, forced vaccination, population reduction and total digital control of everybody – on the way to One World Order – and global financial hegemony – Full Spectrum Dominance, as the PNAC (Plan for a New American Century) likes to call it.
So, the New World Order is being rolled out under the cover of the virus? Is that what's happening?
France has just announced the closure of schools and universities. At this rate, most of the major population centres of the world will be in lock down, I mean quarantine, by Easter.
China expert: Chinese regime falsely telling Communist party members coronavirus is U.S. bioweapon
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/china-expert-chinese-regime-falsely-telling-communist-party-members-coronavirus-is-u.s-bioweapon
Sophie Grégoire Trudeau Tests Positive For Coronavirus, Prime Minister In Self-Isolation
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/sophie-gregoire-justin-trudeau-coronavirus-test-160504450.html
Quote from: mikemac on March 12, 2020, 11:20:39 PM
China expert: Chinese regime falsely telling Communist party members coronavirus is U.S. bioweapon
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/china-expert-chinese-regime-falsely-telling-communist-party-members-coronavirus-is-u.s-bioweapon
Pot, meet kettle.
Wow. That's an interesting article Martin posted. But is it right?
Peter Koenig seems like a fairly respectable author, but a bit controversial.a https://www.21cir.com/specialists/peter-koenig/ I'm surprised Global Research published that article where he openly speaks about some of the things that have been discussed here, the new world order, forced vaccination etc. It's difficult to know what to believe.
I've generally respected Bill Gates; yet, when I look at this video again, it's amazing that Bill Gates speaks of "new vaccines" in the context of reducing population growth. So is that an open admission that they're going to knowingly design bad vaccines, or what? Hard to see what's going on here from all sides. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vzFeiKH1jQ
Population control is an idiotic goal, besides being immoral. Earth has enough resources for everybody, if properly produced and distributed; especially when technology is not used to kill people but to serve them. The world already produces enough food to feed 10 billion people https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241746569_We_Already_Grow_Enough_Food_for_10_Billion_People_and_Still_Can't_End_Hunger The world's population won't touch that for another 30 years at least even at reasonably high population growth rates. So why are the globalists going crazy and trying to develop vaccines to reduce population already?
Well, let's see how it all unfolds. I do believe some vaccines were good and properly developed. I have no doubt the smallpox and polio ones were, as these were independently attested and properly developed. But I will believe a coronavirus vaccine is good only provided it meets all those necessary requirements, and also imo it should be entirely free (as in, not forced) and completely left to the discretion of the individual whether to use it or not. There are still many good people, not population-control-ists, who are working on one.
Another update: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/stocks-collapse-coronavirus-global-pandemic-live-200312235606108.html
"South Korea, once the largest coronavirus outbreak outside China, has seen its newly recovered patients exceed fresh infections for the first time on Friday, as it reported its lowest number of new cases for three weeks.
However, the death toll from an outbreak of coronavirus in Italy has jumped in the last 24 hours by 189 to 1,016, a rise of 23 percent, the country's Civil Protection Agency said on Thursday.
The World Health Organization (WHO) declared the outbreak a pandemic as Italy tightened its strict quarantine and the United States imposed a ban on flights to Europe.
More than 4,700 people have died and over 128,000 have been infected globally, according to the WHO. About 68,000 victims have recovered, according to Johns Hopkins University, which is tracking the virus ...
Quote from: Graham on March 12, 2020, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: Christe Eleison on March 12, 2020, 03:45:55 PM
The thing that bothers me the most, is that in Italy the older people & or people with underlying conditions are left to DIE!
I saw a video, interview of an Italian Doctor that clearly stated that if the hospital only has 1 ICU bed left,
1 ventilator left, and a younger person in their 30's needs it, as well as a 50 or 60 year old (forget a 70 or 80 year old :'() The hospital will choose the younger person. :pray2:
So, the high number of deaths in Italy is due to the hospitals being swamped, not enough Doctors, nurses, ICU beds, ventilators, etc.
Death panels :'( They are selecting who can live or die...
God helps us all! :pray2:
It's certainly a sad state, but there are not infinite beds and decisions have to be made. What we should take from this is a renewed appreciation of why swift action on pandemic events is so prudent, and why arguments like "dont worry as long as you're young and healthy" are so blinkered. Hospital systems are pretty fragile.
Edit: I think the quoted argument (which not many are trotting out anymore) is selfish in two ways. In the obvious way, which encourages people not to care so long as they themselves are not in immediate danger. And secondly, by overlooking the collective and systemic nature of a pandemic threat. Midwit westerners are really not equipped to understand problems of that nature until they're beaten over the head with them. This is why practically nobody was discussing hospital overload, and the resulting spill of difficult consequences including butally realistic triage, until it became obvious in Italy.
I have been saying this Graham, it's an "I'm alright so everyone should relax" attitude. I'm taking flak for this in my parish, they think I'm overreacting.
We're hearing lots of rumours that ICU is full in our local general hospital. Friend was texting her friend working in a+e and she (nurse) replied "they're not telling you everything" and couldn't get anymore info as networks were not working fully yesterday. So I go through to another nurse who works in same a+e and asked her about this , she replied with standard health service hymn sheet stuff , wash hands, self isolate blah blah blah- she is high up in the Unions. So who do you believe??
Our army are on the highest alert they've ever been.
Police are going to man the supermarkets.
P.s. Corona virus vaccine syringe pointing at my left temple, loaded gun to my right temple.. I'll take my chances with the gun
Quote from: Xavier on March 13, 2020, 02:07:20 AM
Another update: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/stocks-collapse-coronavirus-global-pandemic-live-200312235606108.html
"South Korea, once the largest coronavirus outbreak outside China, has seen its newly recovered patients exceed fresh infections for the first time on Friday, as it reported its lowest number of new cases for three weeks.
However, the death toll from an outbreak of coronavirus in Italy has jumped in the last 24 hours by 189 to 1,016, a rise of 23 percent, the country's Civil Protection Agency said on Thursday.
The World Health Organization (WHO) declared the outbreak a pandemic as Italy tightened its strict quarantine and the United States imposed a ban on flights to Europe.
More than 4,700 people have died and over 128,000 have been infected globally, according to the WHO. About 68,000 victims have recovered, according to Johns Hopkins University, which is tracking the virus ...
Ah yes, Italy's magical super-deadly strain of coronavirus that kills people at rates 3-40 times that of other countries.
Man-made or not? Taiwan Professor claims it is; then later apparently retracts, ad the message is taken down. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3880475
(https://tnimage.s3.hicloud.net.tw/photos/2020/02/24/1582532121-5e538619d56f2.jpg)
"TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — As the Wuhan coronavirus continues to spread like wildfire across the globe, a National Taiwan University (NTU) professor on Saturday (Feb. 22) said the virus is likely man-made, based on its unusual structure.
At a seminar on the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) hosted by the Taiwan Public Health Association at NTU, Fang Chi-tai (???), a professor at NTU's College of Public Health, addressed the many theories circulating that the virus somehow leaked from or was released from the Wuhan Institute of Virology biosafety level 4 laboratory (BSL-4 Lab). He said that what is known is that there are many deadly viruses being researched in the facility, such as SARS and Ebola, and that China's track record with safety standards and laboratory management has been questioned in the past.
Fang said that COVID-19 is 96 percent similar to the bat virus RaTG13, which is known to be housed at the lab. Fang said that this in itself is not a smoking gun, as a genetic similarity of 99 percent would be required to declare them to be the same.
He said that a French team investigating COVID-19 had found that the key difference between RaTG13 and COVID-19 was that the latter has four additional amino acids not found in any other coronaviruses. Fang said that these four amino acids make the disease easier to transmit.
Fang said that the French team's findings had led some in the scientific community to speculate that Chinese scientists thought the SARS outbreak 17 years ago was too easy to deal with, so they developed an "upgraded version." He said that with modern technology, such an "upgrade" is theoretically possible.
The professor said that viruses normally only have small mutations in the form of singular changes in natural conditions. He asserted that in nature, it is "unlikely to have four amino acids added at once."
Fang concluded, "Therefore, from an academic point of view, it is indeed possible that the amino acids were added to COVID-19 in the lab by humans." He said that it is also still possible that this occurred in nature but that "the chances are very slim."
Fang stressed that the mutations found in the novel coronavirus are "unusual in an academic sense." He asserted that "It is indeed possible that it is a man-made product."
He said that it would be critical to conduct an internal investigation of the records at BSL-4 Lab. However, given the opaque nature of the current regime in Beijing, he said such a public inquest into the lab's records looks highly unlikely in the near future.
On the positive side, Fang said that if it is an artificially generated virus, it means it does not occur naturally in the ecosystem. Therefore, after the last patient is cured, it should not become a seasonal illness such as the flu, which is generated naturally in the environment.
However, renowned Taiwanese-American professor Ching Lin on Feb. 1 refuted a similar theory being circulated that it was "bioweapon" created by the U.S., saying the addition of the aforementioned four amino acids is not as "critical" as some in the Chinese media had claimed.
Lin also cast doubt on the credibility of the paper (Uncanny similarity of unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV spike protein to HIV-1 gp120 and Gag) being cited in the conspiracy theories. He first suggested that the platform bioRxiv, on which the paper was published, is untrustworthy as most of the literature it posts does not undergo peer review.
He also noted that the four insertions in the spike glycoproteins that Indian authors described as unique to COVID-19 are not unusual in the results for pBLAST (an algorithm for comparing primary biological sequence information).
Update: 03/03 6:00 p.m.
After being contacted by Taiwan News for comment, Fang denied making the previously cited statements and said that he "does not support the highly popular man-made theory on the origin of this virus."
The video of his presentation has mysteriously been taken down. When Taiwan News asked the Taiwan Public Health Association why the video had been removed, it issued the following statement:
"It has been taken down for a certain reason, In the future, it will be re-uploaded when appropriate. Thank you for your understanding."
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/coronavirus-shutdowns-across-country-127018
Financial markets are careening. Public tours of the very symbols of American political power — the White House, Capitol Hill and Supreme Court — are being put on hold while some congressional offices are shuttering altogether. Campaign rallies are being canceled. Professional sports leagues have suspended play. And Broadway and Disneyland are shutting down.
Each day, more and more employees are working remotely at companies large and small. Even the White House is considering mass teleworking. Schools are being closed or going virtual. Ohio students are getting a three-week spring break beginning Monday, while schools will be closed for two weeks across Maryland and six weeks in three Washington state counties. And travel is being discouraged — and in the case of foreign visitors from most of Europe, banned. Some cruise lines are even halting voyages on their ships.
America is shutting down as Americans learn to adapt to life amid the coronavirus pandemic, a global health crisis that is straining public health systems and burrowing deeper into advanced economies and societies by the day. The question nobody can yet answer: for how long? ...
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus
(https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/03/Coronavirus-Symptoms-%E2%80%93-WHO-joint-mission-2-800x429.png)
"How long does COVID-19 last?
On average the disease lasts two weeks. The WHO reports that "the median time from onset to clinical recovery for mild cases is approximately 2 weeks."23
Again this is based on the 55,924 confirmed cases in China
For severe and critical cases it is 3 to 6 weeks according to the same study.
And for those who eventually died, the time from symptom onset to death ranged from 2 to 8 weeks. This is important when interpreting the case fatality rate (see below). Measures of the CFR of an ongoing outbreak do (obviously) not include deaths of patients who will eventually die, but have not died yet at the time of measurement. This means that the current CFR would be lower than the eventual CFR.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 12, 2020, 11:10:28 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 12, 2020, 07:29:24 PM
We are moving towards a totalitarian state of the world. This is part of Agenda ID2020 – and these steps to be implemented now – prepared since long, including by the coronavirus computer simulation at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore on 18 October 2019, sponsored by the WEF and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.....
...... We may indeed be just at the beginning of the implementation of ID2020 – which includes, forced vaccination, population reduction and total digital control of everybody – on the way to One World Order – and global financial hegemony – Full Spectrum Dominance, as the PNAC (Plan for a New American Century) likes to call it.
So, the New World Order is being rolled out under the cover of the virus? Is that what's happening?
France has just announced the closure of schools and universities. At this rate, most of the major population centres of the world will be in lock down, I mean quarantine, by Easter.
Yup. That's exactly what is happening. This is starting to seem like a world war without the ordinance. At least for now. The governments of the world are completely broke and all of our cash, in the form of actual bills, will have to be coughed up. There awfully dangerous as that virus can stay on the bills. They can then start over with a digital currency after the current monetary system is scalped by the filthy rich and then collapsed.
I think we are up to almost 50 messed up old people dying in fossil farms in the State of Washington. Which I believe is where all the dying has been done. In the meantime the entire economy is being shut down. Or should I say destroyed.
And most people, including many here, will be happy to take orders from their masters as long as the promise is to keep them safe.
I think the biggest problem is low testosterone. Whether that's engineered or voluntarily given up.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/EDN-20171110-1?inheritRedirect=true (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/EDN-20171110-1?inheritRedirect=true)
Quote
From the 4.9 million deaths reported in the European Union (EU) in 2014, 118 300 were due to pneumonia. Women (59 900 deaths) and men (58 400 deaths) were almost equally affected. 90% of these deaths concerned people aged over 65.
In absolute terms, the United Kingdom (28 200 deaths, or 24% of the EU total) was the Member State that recorded the most deaths from pneumonia in 2014, followed by Germany (16 700, 14%), Poland (12 300, 10%), France (11 100, 9%), Italy (9 100, 8%) and Spain (8 400, 7%).
90% of the dead over 65. Sound familiar? "Coronavirus" pneumonia deaths are currently in line Italy's usual pneumonia deaths. As I have explained, the diagnosis of this disease is meaningless, detection of some antibodies or a totally unreliable test for a couple of genes whose presence is just presumed to be due to an invasion by an exogenous micro-organism.
Quote from: Xavier on March 13, 2020, 05:30:06 AM
Again this is based on the 55,924 confirmed cases in China
Confirmed by what? Does there exist some diagnostic test I'm unaware of that does what PCR and antibody tests in principle cannot do? Why won't any of you answer?
QuoteDoes there exist some diagnostic test I'm unaware of ...
If you're asking me, I'm not a scientist.
I'm skeptical of some aspects of the official claims.
I'm also as yet still skeptical of some aspects of the skeptics' claims as well.
I'll have to see how it goes for some more time before deciding where the Truth lies.
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/photos-surreal-scenes-from-a-rome-on-lockdown
In Rome, all theories from all camps are still doing the rounds with people not yet sure which is right.
"Pope Francis is currently not having any public engagements but rather having Masses he celebrates livestreamed on Vatican Media. A Rome priest called Father Maurizio Mirilli is celebrating daily Mass for the faithful live on Facebook at 9 a.m.
Italians generally have mixed feelings toward the nationwide quarantine but so far at least, most largely support it. Italians take their health seriously, and are usually concerned for the elderly who make up a large proportion of the population and are most at risk.
They also support disease-spreading prevention as medical care and facilities are already overstretched and costly for a government running large deficits.
Some are paying no attention to the directives but carrying on as normal. Still others do not see it as all that dangerous but rather a media-generated story to impose a dictatorship on them, while another group believe the virus is dangerous but a nationwide quarantine is absurd as it will not solve the problem.
Among those supporting of the quarantine, some think it's too late and the government should have taken stronger action last month, but they hope these measures nevertheless can stop the virus.
So far, unfortunately that doesn't seem to be happening. Over the past 24 hours, Italy registered nearly a thousand new cases with a jump of 168 deaths, taking the total number of mortalities in the country to 631, second only to China with 3,136.
In the Rome region of Lazio, cases rose over the same time period from 97 to 110, with 15 in ICU. Several hundred Romans remain under surveillance at home to ensure they don't have the disease."
Harvard Epidemiologist Anthony Fauci says CoronaVirus 10 Times Deadlier than the Flu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM74KiaksgM
https://www.sciencealert.com/how-does-the-coronavirus-test-work
"How does the test work?
While collecting a sample is easy, actually determining whether a person is infected with the coronavirus is much more complicated. The current method looks for the virus's genetic material (RNA) in a patient's cells.
In order to detect the presence of RNA in the patient's sample, labs perform a test called reverse-transcription polymerase chain reaction. This method first converts any viral RNA to DNA.
Then the DNA is replicated millions of times until there are enough copies to detect using a specialized piece of equipment called a quantitative PCR instrument.
If genetic material from the virus is found in the sample, then the patient is infected with the virus.
It takes 24-72 hours to get the results of a test. During the early ramp-up of testing, there were some concerns about the test's accuracy after one study found 3 percent of tests in China came back negative when the samples were actually positive.
But this type of genetic test is generally very accurate – more so even than rapid flu tests – and the benefits of testing outweigh the risk of an error."
Links to: https://www.livescience.com/how-coronavirus-tests-work.html
"Once a sample arrives at the lab, researchers extract its nucleic acid, which holds the virus' genome. Then, researchers can amplify certain regions of the genome by using a technique known as reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction. This, in effect, gives researchers a large sample that they can then compare to the new coronavirus, known as SARS-CoV-2.
SARS-CoV-2 has nearly 30,000 nucleotides, the building blocks that make up DNA and RNA. The PCR test developed by the University of Washington School of Medicine (UW Medicine) targets just 100 nucleotides that are specific to SARS-CoV-2, Dr. Alex Greninger, an assistant professor in the Department of Laboratory Medicine and an assistant director of the Clinical Virology Laboratory at UW Medicine, told The Seattle Times.
These 100 nucleotides include two genes in the SARS-CoV-2 genome. A sample is considered positive if the test finds both genes, inconclusive if just one gene is found, and negative if neither gene is detected.
Tests from UW Medicine that are either inconclusive or positive are sent to Washington's Public Health Laboratories and the CDC for further testing, The Seattle Times reported.
In contrast, serological tests look for specific antibodies that the body has produced to fight the virus. "If they detect those antibodies, [the test] gives a positive result," Adalja said. Singapore has developed an experimental antibody test for COVID-19, Science magazine reported, and China has licensed several, as well, according to STAT News.
Quote90% of the dead over 65. Sound familiar?
No resemblance. Because....
QuoteItaly (9 100, 8%)
9,000 deaths PER YEAR. They'll exceed that in 2 weeks.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51852320
"Coronavirus has claimed 1,016 lives in Italy, officials say, but Foreign Minister Luigi Di Maio says he hopes his country will be the first in Europe to get over the emergency.
Another 188 people died over 24 hours.
However, Mr Di Maio told the BBC the measures imposed in the first area of the outbreak were proving effective.
Two weeks after the first 10 towns in northern Italy were declared a "red zone" and put under lockdown, he said they had no new infections.
This then served as a model to tighten measures across the country.
Italy has now seen 1,016 deaths, amid a total number 15,113 infections. Civil protection officials say 1,258 have recovered, although the number of cases has gone up by 2,651 since Wednesday. Italy is the world's worst-hit country after China.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/italys-covid-19-deaths-top-1-000-cases-near-13-000/1764356
"Italy's COVID-19 deaths top 1,000, cases near 13,000
Despite stricter measures enforced by the government, the death toll from the novel coronavirus outbreak in Italy continues to rise, reaching 1,016 on Thursday -- a jump of 23% over a period of 24 hours.
According to the latest figures provided by the Italian Civil Protection Department, the total number of cases in the country has risen to 12,839, the highest anywhere in the world after China, where the virus emerged last December.
On Wednesday, the Italian government warned citizens that new containment measures -- including a stricter lockdown of shops, bars, and other commercial activities -- will take at least a couple of weeks to slow down the spread of the virus."
Quote from: Xavier on March 13, 2020, 09:13:45 AM
Harvard Epidemiologist Anthony Fauci says CoronaVirus 10 Times Deadlier than the Flu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM74KiaksgM
The comment section of that video certainly shows how successful the media has been in brainwashing the masses. Terrorized sheep spouting BS that has nothing to do with facts.
Currently in NJ we supposedly have 29 cases with one death; that death being an elderly man with pre-existing, serious health issues. Last night the local grocery store had lines down the aisles and people running around and yelling at each other.
Are most people really this incapable of objectively assessing a situation based on FACTS? The scariest aspect of this disease is seeing how mindlessly the masses listen to the voice of society's pied pipers.
Why are patients who recover from coronavirus testing positive again?
In Fortune (https://fortune.com/2020/03/06/coronavirus-recover-test-positive-twice/).
The number of COVID-19 coronavirus cases worldwide reached over 98,600 on Friday, including 233 in the U.S., where 12 people have died. Germany's health minister called the outbreak, which has spread to at least 84 countries, a "global pandemic." Along with the global rise in infections and deaths is an increase in recoveries—more than 55,000 people have recovered from the disease as of Friday. While those recoveries are welcome news for a world on edge, public health officials in China and Japan have reported cases in which patients see their symptoms subside and are discharged from hospitals—only to test positive for the coronavirus again. On March 2, a man in Wuhan, China, with COVID-19 died after being readmitted to the hospital two days after he was discharged, according to a Chinese news site.
The exact number of these cases is unclear—Japan has had at least one case and China has had several, including the Wuhan man, one man in Sichuan province, and 13 discharged patients from one hospital in Guangdong province. Being reinfected with COVID-19 is possible, said Sharon Lewin, director of the Peter Doherty Institute for Infection and Immunity in Melbourne, but such an instance would be "surprising." It's possible that patients are not actually being reinfected, but that other factors—misdiagnosis, human error, or faulty tests—are giving that appearance.
Testing done with animal models for SARS, a similar coronavirus, indicates that patients who recover from the disease will have immunity from it. "From what we know of other coronaviruses, you recover, you make an antibody response, and you clear the virus, and then if you rechallenge the animal with the same virus they're protected," Lewin said. Lewin put stocks in explanations other than reinfection, but she emphasized that the virus still has too many unknowns and there are too few reported twice-positive cases to conduct a study or draw a definitive conclusion.
Human error and faulty tests
The mysterious double positives could simply be the result of human error. Hospitals have been testing for the presence of the virus using swab samples from a patient's nose, throat, and sometimes lungs. Swabs can yield different quantities of the virus depending on where the clinician swabs and how they do it, Lewin said. If the swab sample yields too little of the virus, it could lead to a false negative for a patient who is still infected.
Problems with the testing kits themselves can also lead to false negatives or false positives—like the batch of faulty kits the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention rushed out and then ordered back, a blunder that delayed testing in the U.S. by weeks and may have contributed to the virus's spread there. The Wuhan man who died after he was discharged and readmitted had twice tested negative for the virus before being released, though a pre-discharge CT scan indicated a remaining infection in his lungs.
Virus 'reservoir'
Another possible culprit for double positives is residue virus in a patient's system following their discharge from the hospital, said Vijay Dhanasekaran, an associate professor of microbiology at Monash University who studies viral pathogens and infectious disease outbreaks. Since hospitals largely discharge patients based on the reduction of their symptoms, Dhanasekaran said, the virus could be lingering in patients with milder COVID-19 cases who are discharged. (The World Health Organization said 80% of cases are "mild to moderate.")
One hospital in Wuhan said it would start conducting antibody tests before releasing patients, after multiple discharged patients fell ill again and returned to the hospital, suggesting that a symptom check or swab test is insufficient to determine whether a patient has recovered. (Antibodies are produced by the body's immune system in response to infection.) The coronavirus could also be lingering in a "reservoir" within the patient's body. Ebola virus and HIV are known to sequester in viral reservoirs, though the trait is "not typical of coronaviruses that we know of," Lewin said. Nevertheless, the reservoir theory is "the sort of thing that would be on my mind in trying to understand [the COVID-19 reinfection reports]," she said.
Real reinfection
Scientists are not ruling out the prospect of reinfection.
Dhanasekaran said reinfections are "possible," and pointed to influenza and respiratory syncytial virus, two viruses—neither coronaviruses—that patients can get more than once. "In short, it is possible, but I would suggest in a minority of cases," said Brett Lidbury, an epidemiologist at Australian National University. "All we can do is speculate at the moment, based on previous experience and prior data."
"If this phenomenon of being positive-negative-positive is very rare, you need a very large study to capture those people," Lewin said. What's needed going forward, Lewin said, is more research into the "natural histories of the disease—so knowing exactly how long people are excreting virus for, how that relates to system improvement or deteriorating, and how that relates to infectiousness."
"All my ideas around being positive-negative-positive, they're all theories," Lewin added. "We don't have the answer yet."
Quote from: Graham on March 12, 2020, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: Christe Eleison on March 12, 2020, 03:45:55 PM
The thing that bothers me the most, is that in Italy the older people & or people with underlying conditions are left to DIE!
I saw a video, interview of an Italian Doctor that clearly stated that if the hospital only has 1 ICU bed left,
1 ventilator left, and a younger person in their 30's needs it, as well as a 50 or 60 year old (forget a 70 or 80 year old :'() The hospital will choose the younger person. :pray2:
So, the high number of deaths in Italy is due to the hospitals being swamped, not enough Doctors, nurses, ICU beds, ventilators, etc.
Death panels :'( They are selecting who can live or die...
God helps us all! :pray2:
It's certainly a sad state, but there are not infinite beds and decisions have to be made. What we should take from this is a renewed appreciation of why swift action on pandemic events is so prudent, and why arguments like "dont worry as long as you're young and healthy" are so blinkered. Hospital systems are pretty fragile.
Edit: I think the quoted argument (which not many are trotting out anymore) is selfish in two ways. In the obvious way, which encourages people not to care so long as they themselves are not in immediate danger. And secondly, by overlooking the collective and systemic nature of a pandemic threat. Midwit westerners are really not equipped to understand problems of that nature until they're beaten over the head with them. This is why practically nobody was discussing hospital overload, and the resulting spill of difficult consequences including butally realistic triage, until it became obvious in Italy.
We were always taught that the people who expect literally the whole world to stop for them are the selfish ones.
Good news.
Research team has isolated the COVID-19 virus
In Sunnybrook Research Institute (https://sunnybrook.ca/research/media/item.asp?c=2&i=2069&f=covid-19-isolated-2020).
(https://sunnybrook.ca/uploads/1/news/2020/researchers.jpg)
Pictured left to right: Dr. Robert Kozak, Dr. Samira Mubareka, Dr. Arinjay Banerjee.
A team of researchers from Sunnybrook, McMaster University(opens in a new window) and the University of Toronto(opens in a new window) has isolated severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the agent responsible for the ongoing outbreak of COVID-19.
Thanks to nimble collaboration, the team was able to culture the virus from two clinical specimens in a Level 3 containment facility.
"We need key tools to develop solutions to this pandemic. While the immediate response is crucial, longer-term solutions come from essential research into this novel virus," said Dr. Samira Mubareka, microbiologist and infectious diseases physician at Sunnybrook.
The isolated virus will help researchers in Canada and across the world develop better diagnostic testing, treatments and vaccines, and gain a better understanding of SARS-CoV-2 biology, evolution and clinical shedding.
"Researchers from these world-class institutions came together in a grassroots way to successfully isolate the virus in just a few short weeks," said Dr. Rob Kozak, clinical microbiologist at Sunnybrook. "It demonstrates the amazing things that can happen when we collaborate."
Dr. Arinjay Banerjee, NSERC post-doctoral fellow at McMaster University, said he knows the collaboration won't stop there.
"Now that we have isolated the SARS-CoV-2 virus, we can share this with other researchers and continue this teamwork," he said. "The more viruses that are made available in this way, the more we can learn, collaborate and share."
Congratulations to the researchers from these three Canadian institutions: Dr. Samira Mubareka and Dr. Rob Kozak of Sunnybrook and University of Toronto; Dr. Arinjay Banerjee and Dr. Karen Mossman of McMaster University.
With gratitude to the CL3 team and Biosafety Officers.
Lying here in bed with the flu, diagnosed yesterday by doc. Definitely a cause for concern considering its been years since I had the flu, the first confirmed case of corona in my area was last weekend, and I work among sick people all day. Still the odds are very low but its a concern. But if anything this just reminds me how crappy it feels to have the flu.
Pile on the blankets. Plan on 24 hours in bed. Drink water.
Vitamin C IV would rid you of flu.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 13, 2020, 12:05:04 PM
Good news.
Research team has isolated the COVID-19 virus
No they haven't. No virus has ever been isolated.
QuoteWhy are patients who recover from coronavirus testing positive again?
Lol. Talk about sophistry. They test positive again for the straightforward reason that in truth ANTIBODY AND PCR TESTS TELL ONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THE CAUSE OF DISEASE IN AN INDIVIDUAL. Asymptomatic, sick, dying, recovered, they can all tests positive on these tests, indeed, positive and negative on repeated tests.
QuoteAntibodies are produced by the body's immune system in response to infection.
Nope. Antibodies are produced in the presence of antigens. That tells one nothing about whether their origin is exogenous or endogenous and whether they are agents of disease or a response to disease.
QuoteThe Wuhan man who died after he was discharged and readmitted had twice tested negative for the virus before being released, though a pre-discharge CT scan indicated a remaining infection in his lungs.
More concerned with an imaginary agents of disease than the disease itself. It's like when you have TB, they treat you for TB, but if you are HIV+ve and have TB, it's "AIDS", so they stick you on anti-retrovirals and you slowly die.
If you've never watched House of Numbers, please start here.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dT0BugXqsU[/yt]
There will never be a cure for "HIV" because you can't kill what doesn't exist: retroviruses.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 13, 2020, 01:04:51 PM
Vitamin C IV would rid you of flu.
What causes the flu, in your mind?
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 36: Flatten The COVID-19 Curve, Social Distancing, Hospital Capacities
Flattening the coronavirus curve has become an important recommendation by many experts. Dr. Seheult explains the idea behind this concept as it relates to a busy intensive care unit as well as other COVID-19 international updates.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vww1nIIoqmw[/yt]
Quote from: christulsa on March 13, 2020, 12:13:50 PM
Lying here in bed with the flu, diagnosed yesterday by doc. Definitely a cause for concern considering its been years since I had the flu, the first confirmed case of corona in my area was last weekend, and I work among sick people all day. Still the odds are very low but its a concern. But if anything this just reminds me how crappy it feels to have the flu.
Aw Christula, please God you get better soon, sleep, drink, sleep, drink. Any shortness of breath? :pray1:
Italy at 17,600 with 1266 dead. 250 deaths reported today. K. reported earlier that the average death rate by pneumonia is less than 3 per day.
USA 2270 cases, 48 dead. Markets rallied 2000 points on the Dow after Fed opened the spigot. I think we get one more test lower to 2200 on the S&P, but we'll see.
Rest of Europe is exploding. Looks like Switzerland is also getting hit hard. UK starting to blow up. Canada starting to show up with 1 death.
Looks like 3,000 cases in the US by Sunday, 13,000 by next Sunday. 50K following Sunday, and then 200K after that. Assuming social separation and mass gathering cancellations don't start to bite. I think they will start slowing down the ramp in April.
This hour of unedited footage from Wuhan and affected cities, filmed by citizens, shows the reality of the Coronavirus/nCoV/COVID19 outbreak and government response. Some of the worst aspects of human nature are documented for the purposes of awareness and preparation. The footage increases in intensity from start to finish and there are no trigger warnings. This is not the flu.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/ (https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/)
Quote from: james03 on March 13, 2020, 06:23:14 PM
Italy at 17,600 with 1266 dead. 250 deaths reported today. K. reported earlier that the average death rate by pneumonia is less than 3 per day.
No. Italy has 9000+ annual deaths from pneumonia.
Quote from: christulsa on March 13, 2020, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 13, 2020, 01:04:51 PM
Vitamin C IV would rid you of flu.
What causes the flu, in your mind?
If colds are the body cleansing itself, the flu is the body's spring cleaning. Toxins build up in the body over time, cells produce "viruses" as solvents to break down diseased tissue, and antibodies are produced to regulate this process and expel the "viral" particles and toxins through mucus membranes, vomiting, diarrhea, and so on. This is why flu is seasonal. It has nothing to do with an invisible organism on the order of microns in size going around infecting people. No more than scurvy, mad cow disease, polio, or gay immune collapse from use of poppers, antibiotics and AZT. Of course injecting people with "viral" antigens and toxins in the form of vaccines does make them ill.
Regardless of what you think of this, intravenous megadoses of vitamin C will "cure" flu, that is, make your body's healing and recovery rapid.
My bad. 30 per day.
Right. 250 in a single day in Italy is still well over 30 per day. And it seems to be exponentially increasing, even with every possible precaution taken.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Worldwide well over 5000 deaths. Nearly 150,000 cases. It's a race against time now to find the cure.
Let's pray that by God's Grace humanity finds a solution before everything gets completely out of hand. [Edit: It's 8.5 times, almost ten times more].
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 13, 2020, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: christulsa on March 13, 2020, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 13, 2020, 01:04:51 PM
Vitamin C IV would rid you of flu.
What causes the flu, in your mind?
If colds are the body cleansing itself, the flu is the body's spring cleaning. Toxins build up in the body over time, cells produce "viruses" as solvents to break down diseased tissue, and antibodies are produced to regulate this process and expel the "viral" particles and toxins through mucus membranes, vomiting, diarrhea, and so on. This is why flu is seasonal. It has nothing to do with an invisible organism on the order of microns in size going around infecting people. No more than scurvy, mad cow disease, polio, or gay immune collapse from use of poppers, antibiotics and AZT. Of course injecting people with "viral" antigens and toxins in the form of vaccines does make them ill.
Regardless of what you think of this, intravenous megadoses of vitamin C will "cure" flu, that is, make your body's healing and recovery rapid.
How do you explain how my wife and four daughters (6, 4, 2, <1) all got the flu within two days of the first one? Their "spring cleaning" happened to sync up like that?
Quote from: Stu Cool on March 13, 2020, 08:32:21 PM
How do you explain how my wife and four daughters (6, 4, 2, <1) all got the flu within two days of the first one? Their "spring cleaning" happened to sync up like that?
They're women. Their biorhythms sync up with the phases of the moon.
Quote from: Fleur-de-Lys on March 13, 2020, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: Stu Cool on March 13, 2020, 08:32:21 PM
How do you explain how my wife and four daughters (6, 4, 2, <1) all got the flu within two days of the first one? Their "spring cleaning" happened to sync up like that?
They're women. Their biorhythms sync up with the phases of the moon.
Was wondering if someone would make a comment like that. :)
Quote from: Xavier on March 13, 2020, 07:58:46 PM
Right. 250 in a single day in Italy is still well over 30 per day. And it seems to be exponentially increasing, even with every possible precaution taken.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Worldwide well over 5000 deaths. Nearly 150,000 cases. It's a race against time now to find a cure.
Let's pray that by God's Grace humanity finds a solution before everything gets completely out of hand.
I would like to know where the deaths occured exactly, like where they lived or worked. When you compare maps of 5G network around the world and the Covid-19 cases you'll will be amazed how closely they match.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 13, 2020, 07:07:35 PM
This hour of unedited footage from Wuhan and affected cities, filmed by citizens, shows the reality of the Coronavirus/nCoV/COVID19 outbreak and government response. Some of the worst aspects of human nature are documented for the purposes of awareness and preparation. The footage increases in intensity from start to finish and there are no trigger warnings. This is not the flu.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/ (https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/)
I watched some of the video footage and it only confirms that we are not fighting just a virus but also the 5G technology or some kind of a neurotoxic bioweapon. Just look at some of these poor guys who all of a sudden collapse, jump off the bridge, out the window and one guy hangs himself.
Sweeping out of the steppes, it's the Mongols!
Theory 1
Obese and undernourished from a diet of potato chips and soda, and being especially tired from a lifestyle of midnight Netflix, the valley villagers were easily dispatched, putting up little fight. But upon reaching the second village the Mongols were in for a battle. For up in this mountainous village the people were strong, routinely working with their hands and dieting on raw cheese and naturally cured meats. Eschewing modernity, they lived their lives around the rising and setting of the sun and were well rested. Up in these mountains against these able bodied men, the Mongols were soundly defeated.
Theory 2
Obese and undernourished from a diet of potato chips and soda, and being especially tired from a lifestyle of midnight Netflix, the valley villagers had much cleaning to be done. The Mongols tried their best to assist the slovenly villagers in cleaning up their disorder, but it was too much, and the villagers perished during a Mongols Jazzercise routine.
But upon reaching the second village the Mongols were in for a surprise. For up in this mountainous village the people were organized, as working with their hands and dieting on raw cheese and naturally cured meats required much planning. Eschewing modernity, they lived their lives around the rising and setting of the sun and were punctual. Up in these mountains against these orderly men, the Mongols found little work to be done. Cleaning a little dust here and a little dirt there, the Mongols quickly found nothing to do and headed out on their warhorses in search of a village more in need of their aid.
The thing about it Mongolia is doing very well, seeing it closed it's border with China early on.
Mongolia Confirms Its First Coronavirus Case in French Worker
March 9, 2020
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-03-09/mongolia-confirms-first-coronavirus-case-a-french-national
DUBAI (Reuters) - The total number of deaths in Iran from the coronavirus outbreak has risen by 85 to 514, a health ministry official said on state TV on Friday, adding that the total number of infections had increased by more than 1,000 in the past 24 hours, to 11,364.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-iran/irans-coronavirus-death-toll-514-on-over-1000-new-cases-state-tv-idUSKBN2101GM
Quote from: MartinI would like to know where the deaths occured exactly, like where they lived or worked.
These are the stats available. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/
Patrick Buchanan's Article says Coronavirus may end up destroying the new world order: "It may one day be said that the coronavirus delivered the deathblow to the New World Order ... " https://buchanan.org/blog/will-the-coronavirus-kill-the-new-world-order-138281
Italy Update: "Rome: The death toll from coronavirus in Italy has jumped in the last 24 hours by 250 to 1,266, a rise of 25% and the largest increase in absolute terms since the start of the outbreak, the Civil Protection Agency said on Friday.
The total number of cases in the European country hardest hit by the virus rose to 17,660 from a previous 15,113, an increase of some 17%. Death toll in worst-affected Italian region Lombardy climbs to 890 from 744 a day before"
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/italian-coronavirus-deaths-jump-25-to-1-266-confirmed-cases-rise-to-17-660-11584129110301.html
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 13, 2020, 07:07:35 PM
This hour of unedited footage from Wuhan and affected cities, filmed by citizens, shows the reality of the Coronavirus/nCoV/COVID19 outbreak and government response. Some of the worst aspects of human nature are documented for the purposes of awareness and preparation. The footage increases in intensity from start to finish and there are no trigger warnings. This is not the flu.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/ (https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/)
I have my doubts about this video. Its very disturbing and I skipped a lot of parts but definitely some of the clips are dubious, could be from any time and in 3 separate clips, honest to God I think I saw the same woman in a black coat and pink scarf!!
Quote from: Xavier on March 13, 2020, 07:58:46 PM
Right. 250 in a single day in Italy is still well over 30 per day. And it seems to be exponentially increasing, even with every possible precaution taken.
You understand what an average is that cases of illness like this come in clusters, right? Particularly during the cold months? Not literally 30 every day?
Quote from: Stu Cool on March 13, 2020, 08:32:21 PM
How do you explain how my wife and four daughters (6, 4, 2, <1) all got the flu within two days of the first one? Their "spring cleaning" happened to sync up like that?
They live in the same same environment, eat the same food, drink the same water, breathe the same air, ingest the same poisons and share a genetic profile. Why would think this wouldn't happen?
When you treat colds and flu as if they were reactions to steady poisoning by bad foods and chemicals, cutting out exposure to them, eating a proper diet, and using detoxifying agents, you'll pretty much eliminate them from your life. If you listen to the medical establishment, worrying about contagion with a virus that "does the rounds" every year, I can guarantee one thing: it won't help you or anyone else one bit and wives and daughters will continue to come down with flu as always.
My first encounter with medicine that actually seeks to solve problems was with a naturopath when I was a little boy. I had, like my sisters, suffered from tonsillitis for years, and suffered treatment with antibiotics. Then they wanted to remove them, like the idiotic butchers they are, cutting out vital parts of the body based on their "infection" theory. Thank God my dad took me to a man who knew what he was doing, and a course of special enemas during my worst bout of sickness made it the last I ever saw of that tonsillitis. Of course the autoimmune problems caused by the damage done by antibiotics left me to spend my teenage years suffering from acne and another doctor poisoning me with accutane. Screw doctors. They murdered an entire generation of "AIDS" patients by prescribing them an immune-destroying chemotherapy poison called AZT in high doses.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 13, 2020, 10:16:02 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 13, 2020, 07:07:35 PM
This hour of unedited footage from Wuhan and affected cities, filmed by citizens, shows the reality of the Coronavirus/nCoV/COVID19 outbreak and government response. Some of the worst aspects of human nature are documented for the purposes of awareness and preparation. The footage increases in intensity from start to finish and there are no trigger warnings. This is not the flu.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/ (https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/)
I watched some of the video footage and it only confirms that we are not fighting just a virus but also the 5G technology or some kind of a neurotoxic bioweapon. Just look at some of these poor guys who all of a sudden collapse, jump off the bridge, out the window and one guy hangs himself.
We have no idea what the context of these videos is and where or when they are from, let alone if they are all genuine.
Quote from: Xavier on March 14, 2020, 12:26:53 AM
...These are the stats available. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/
Yes, I have looked at these stats.
Quote
DUBAI (Reuters) - The total number of deaths in Iran from the coronavirus outbreak has risen by 85 to 514, a health ministry official said on state TV on Friday, adding that the total number of infections had increased by more than 1,000 in the past 24 hours, to 11,364.
And they now state there are nil serious cases in Iran, so one can expect this death rate to drop significantly - tomorrow.
QuoteItaly Update: "Rome: The death toll from coronavirus in Italy has jumped in the last 24 hours by 250 to 1,266, a rise of 25% and the largest increase in absolute terms since the start of the outbreak, the Civil Protection Agency said on Friday.
The total number of cases in the European country hardest hit by the virus rose to 17,660 from a previous 15,113, an increase of some 17%. Death toll in worst-affected Italian region Lombardy climbs to 890 from 744 a day before"
Irrespective of the valid question on how reliable the stats might be and how they determine if Corona was responsible for the actual deaths and not some other underlying condition, what they do show is that China deaths peaked at 150 on Feb 23rd, was more than halved the next day and has been dropping significantly since, with 7 on March 10th, 11 on March 12th and 13 deaths on March 13th. Italy's death rate started climbing March 8th and was 250 on March 13th. The current amount of serious cases are 1328. So let's hope Italy follows China, even when we consider that Italy has the oldest population in Europe (23%) and other factors...
"Many Italians in Northern Italy have sold their leather goods and textiles companies to China. Italy then allowed 100,000 Chinese workers from Wuhan and Wenzhou to move to Italy to work in these factories, with
direct flights between Wuhan and Northern Italy. This continued post outbreak, so is it mere coincidence that Northern Italy is now Europe's hotspot for Corona Virus?"
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 14, 2020, 04:49:53 AM
My first encounter with medicine that actually seeks to solve problems was with a naturopath when I was a little boy. I had, like my sisters, suffered from tonsillitis for years, and suffered treatment with antibiotics. Then they wanted to remove them, like the idiotic butchers they are, cutting out vital parts of the body based on their "infection" theory. Thank God my dad took me to a man who knew what he was doing, and a course of special enemas during my worst bout of sickness made it the last I ever saw of that tonsillitis. Of course the autoimmune problems caused by the damage done by antibiotics left me to spend my teenage years suffering from acne and another doctor poisoning me with accutane. Screw doctors. They murdered an entire generation of "AIDS" patients by prescribing them an immune-destroying chemotherapy poison called AZT in high doses.
I had a similar experience with tonsillitis. My son suffered from it continually as a young child and before I became interested in natural health. When I cleaned up our diet and gave him immune boosting Echinacea instead of antibiotics, the tonsillitis eventually disappeared and did not return. Unfortunately, my mother wasn't as informed and I had my own tonsils and adenoids removed as a 4 year old, leaving me without the first line of protection and therefore more susceptible to respiratory issues as a junk eating teenager/young adult. Cleaning up my diet and introducing herbs and natural medicine cured that, though I have suffered from odd bouts of cold and flu on occasion. But this is
always when my immune system is compromised by other factors (overwork, stress, lack of sleep, missing meals etc.), together with working in an air conditioned office with no access to fresh air or natural light.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 14, 2020, 04:49:53 AM
Quote from: Stu Cool on March 13, 2020, 08:32:21 PM
How do you explain how my wife and four daughters (6, 4, 2, <1) all got the flu within two days of the first one? Their "spring cleaning" happened to sync up like that?
They live in the same same environment, eat the same food, drink the same water, breathe the same air, ingest the same poisons and share a genetic profile. Why would think this wouldn't happen?
You don't have kids do you? Our meals seem to be four different meals every day (my poor wife) due to their tastes.
Also, previously you mentioned Vitamin C. Well they (except the 1 year old) all take Vitamin C supplements and drink juice with Vitamin C.
This was also the first time anyone in my family got the flu. So it isn't a yearly thing.
And no one got the flu shot.
I also had mild symptoms (I think I was the first one) but didn't go full blown.
I'm sorry but the experience of that trumps the nonsensical goods you are trying to sell.
Quote from: Stu Cool on March 14, 2020, 06:50:47 AM
You don't have kids do you? Our meals seem to be four different meals every day (my poor wife) due to their tastes.
Stop isolating one point among many and talking nonsense. Horsecrap are your family not sharing common foods from common sources.
QuoteAlso, previously you mentioned Vitamin C. Well they (except the 1 year old) all take Vitamin C supplements and drink juice with Vitamin C.
"Vitamin C supplements"? Fruit juice? Are you an idiot? I said
megadosing of Vitamin C, in the order of 10g a day, but particularly far higher doses of an intravenously administered forms. Do you not
read? What does this have to do with the tiny doses in your stupid supplements? And juice? You understand that sugar and vitamin C have a similar chemical structure and compete for absorption in the body, right? So sources of vitamin C containing relatively high amounts of sugar are useless? No, of course you don't.
And thanks for just contradicting yourself regarding common foodstuffs.
QuoteThis was also the first time anyone in my family got the flu. So it isn't a yearly thing.
And no one got the flu shot.
Who even mentioned the flu shot? Are you always this incoherent?
QuoteI'm sorry but the experience of that trumps the nonsensical goods you are trying to sell.
Ah, yes, the experience demonstrates that flu is caused by an invisible organism microns in size that infects people .
Unlike your medical professional and pharma companies, I'm not trying to sell anything.
:violin:
You have a lot of anger.
Quote from: Stu Cool on March 14, 2020, 07:59:02 AM
You have a lot of anger.
He's autistic. Too much dairy and gluten.
Quote from: Xavier on March 14, 2020, 12:26:53 AM
Patrick Buchanan's Article says Coronavirus may end up destroying the new world order: "It may one day be said that the coronavirus delivered the deathblow to the New World Order ... " https://buchanan.org/blog/will-the-coronavirus-kill-the-new-world-order-138281
Italy Update: "Rome: The death toll from coronavirus in Italy has jumped in the last 24 hours by 250 to 1,266, a rise of 25% and the largest increase in absolute terms since the start of the outbreak, the Civil Protection Agency said on Friday.
The total number of cases in the European country hardest hit by the virus rose to 17,660 from a previous 15,113, an increase of some 17%. Death toll in worst-affected Italian region Lombardy climbs to 890 from 744 a day before"
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/italian-coronavirus-deaths-jump-25-to-1-266-confirmed-cases-rise-to-17-660-11584129110301.html
I don't see how this crisis could hinder the NWO. If anything this is exactly what they need to impose restrictions, vaccinations and martial law almost anywhere in the world.
Doctor Gives 6 Reasons To Be Optimistic About Coronavirus
COVID-19 has begun. How it ends is up to all of us. We can and will beat this but we need to take action. This is a balanced look at what we face without resorting to scare tactics nor ignoring the facts. Here are six real reasons to take action, but to remain positive.
#1: You can make a difference 00:02:32
#2: This virus is pussy-ass weak as shit 00:07:09
#3: The stats are better than you think 00:08:09
#4: Results from other countries 00:09:45
#5: Sciencing the shit out of this 00:10:15
#6: The kids are all right 00:12:22
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Vau7NDjQw[/yt]
Just a reminder that today, many more souls will go to hell for eternity, than will die of the coronavirus. And as far as I know, there's not a single politician who's making a passionate plea to save humanity from this far worse epidemic. How bizarre this irony must seem to the angels.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 14, 2020, 11:20:38 AM
Just a reminder that today, many more souls will go to hell for eternity, than will die of the coronavirus. And as far as I know, there's not a single politician who's making a passionate plea to save humanity from this far worse epidemic. How bizarre this irony must seem to the angels.
With that in mind:
https://www.institute-christ-king.org/uploads/wausau/sermons/2020-03-06.mp3
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 14, 2020, 10:06:32 AM
I don't see how this crisis could hinder the NWO. If anything this is exactly what they need to impose restrictions, vaccinations and martial law almost anywhere in the world.
Exactly. It's perfect for the NWO. They're rolling out the lockdown of major population centres across the world, for quarantine purposes, of course, but which could almost instantly become martial law. I've just heard that in the UK, the police are to be given the power to detain anyone with the virus who refuses to self isolate.
If cash can spread the virus, will money go digital, just as the conspiracy theorists have been predicting? Will the vaccine be compulsory? Is this the ideal opportunity to install the much anticipated One World Government?
Something's not right about all of this.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 14, 2020, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 14, 2020, 10:06:32 AM
I don't see how this crisis could hinder the NWO. If anything this is exactly what they need to impose restrictions, vaccinations and martial law almost anywhere in the world.
Exactly. It's perfect for the NWO. They're rolling out the lockdown of major population centres across the world, for quarantine purposes, of course, but which could almost instantly become martial law. I've just heard that in the UK, the police are to be given the power to detain anyone with the virus who refuses to self isolate.
If cash can spread the virus, will money go digital, just as the conspiracy theorists have been predicting? Will the vaccine be compulsory? Is this the ideal opportunity to install the much anticipated One World Government?
Something's not right about all this.
Not right indeed. There is a foreboding feeling in the air. I really felt it the other day, driving home as I espied a robin flying in an erratic way, thinking to myself that nature is cruel. Nature knows something is up. I have never heard the sounds emanating from the bogs and ponds as I have since around St. Valentine's Day of this year. That this is choreographed for economic cover is not, in my estimation, a crackpot discernment, Awkwardcustomer. The reports of a vaccine being ready or almost available thanks to scientists from Israel is all the more troubling. Could this be an ushering in of the Antichrist? Infect the world, threaten the good life, collapse availability for comfort and pleasure, but then provide the golden ticket so as to be able to replenish the pints and porn stack? Cast nonconformists into camps?
The vaccine will be the mark of the beast.
Quote from: Jacob on March 14, 2020, 01:34:13 PM
The vaccine will be the mark of the beast.
LOL, Jacob.
Quote from: Heinrich on March 14, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
There is a foreboding feeling in the air. I really felt it the other day, driving home as I espied a robin flying in an erratic way, thinking to myself that nature is cruel. Nature knows something is up. I have never heard the sounds emanating from the bogs and ponds as I have since around St. Valentine's Day of this year. That this is choreographed for economic cover is not, in my estimation, a crackpot discernment, Awkwardcustomer. The reports of a vaccine being ready or almost available thanks to scientists from Israel is all the more troubling. Could this be an ushering in of the Antichrist? Infect the world, threaten the good life, collapse availability for comfort and pleasure, but then provide the golden ticket so as to be able to replenish the pints and porn stack? Cast nonconformists into camps?
Spot on, Heinrich. Something feels very wrong about all this to me, as well. There's a surreal quality to it all. It could be yes, ushering in the Antichrist. It could also be a symbol of the spiritual sickness that has infected the world that is in need of healing and purification (cleansing). Quite symbolic, all the panic toward sanitizing.
Quote"The average age of the dead patients with coronavirus is 80.3 years; women are only the 25.8%. The average age of the deceased is much higher of that of other positive people. The mortality peak is between 80 and 89 years. Lethality, i.e. the number of deceased among the ill, is higher among the over 80", the president of the Istituto Superiore di Sanità Silvio Brusaferro explained. He added that "two patients of age lower than 40 died: one, a woman, 39 years old and with a neoplastic pathology, died in hospital; another person of 39 who died at home had some comorbidity factors, like diebetes, obesity and other ailments". The institute is always at work to confirm to what extent the coronavirus has a direct role in the deaths. "Still ander analysis are the medical records of two dead persons with no cronic diseases. However, 46% of the deceased had two or more pre-existing pathologies", Brusaferro added."
Now, they can pretend that this number of deaths in a day is unusual for flu season, but it's not. But just run some tests for markers of a virus to go along with the symptoms, without any historical data to demonstrate these markers have not always been present in the population, and you have an epidemic. And, instead of placing people who show up at hospitals sick in general wards or sending them home with some medication, you treat them as if they had ebola and place them in ICU. Then, with everyone with a sniffle now running to the hospitals out of fear generated by a media campaign, you have ICUs overflowing and give the impression of a runaway infectious disease sweeping through the population at alarming rates. For the sheeple, perception is "reality".
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 14, 2020, 02:01:29 PM
Quote"The average age of the dead patients with coronavirus is 80.3 years; women are only the 25.8%. The average age of the deceased is much higher of that of other positive people. The mortality peak is between 80 and 89 years. Lethality, i.e. the number of deceased among the ill, is higher among the over 80", the president of the Istituto Superiore di Sanità Silvio Brusaferro explained. He added that "two patients of age lower than 40 died: one, a woman, 39 years old and with a neoplastic pathology, died in hospital; another person of 39 who died at home had some comorbidity factors, like diebetes, obesity and other ailments". The institute is always at work to confirm to what extent the coronavirus has a direct role in the deaths. "Still ander analysis are the medical records of two dead persons with no cronic diseases. However, 46% of the deceased had two or more pre-existing pathologies", Brusaferro added."
Now, they can pretend that this number of deaths in a day is unusual for flu season, but it's not. But just run some tests for markers of a virus to go along with the symptoms, without any historical data to demonstrate these markers have not always been present in the population, and you have an epidemic. And, instead of placing people who show up at hospitals sick in general wards or sending them home with some medication, you treat them as if they had ebola and place them in ICU. Then, with everyone with a sniffle now running to the hospitals out of fear generated by a media campaign, you have ICUs overflowing and give the impression of a runaway infectious disease sweeping through the population at alarming rates. For the sheeple, perception is "reality".
Spot on.
Just left Walmart. What a zoo. Sheeple cleaning out row upon row.
Insanity is rare among individuals. Insanity is the norm in the mob.
Quote from: Heinrich on March 14, 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 14, 2020, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 14, 2020, 10:06:32 AM
I don't see how this crisis could hinder the NWO. If anything this is exactly what they need to impose restrictions, vaccinations and martial law almost anywhere in the world.
Exactly. It's perfect for the NWO. They're rolling out the lockdown of major population centres across the world, for quarantine purposes, of course, but which could almost instantly become martial law. I've just heard that in the UK, the police are to be given the power to detain anyone with the virus who refuses to self isolate.
If cash can spread the virus, will money go digital, just as the conspiracy theorists have been predicting? Will the vaccine be compulsory? Is this the ideal opportunity to install the much anticipated One World Government?
Something's not right about all this.
Not right indeed. There is a foreboding feeling in the air. I really felt it the other day, driving home as I espied a robin flying in an erratic way, thinking to myself that nature is cruel. Nature knows something is up. I have never heard the sounds emanating from the bogs and ponds as I have since around St. Valentine's Day of this year. That this is choreographed for economic cover is not, in my estimation, a crackpot discernment, Awkwardcustomer. The reports of a vaccine being ready or almost available thanks to scientists from Israel is all the more troubling. Could this be an ushering in of the Antichrist? Infect the world, threaten the good life, collapse availability for comfort and pleasure, but then provide the golden ticket so as to be able to replenish the pints and porn stack? Cast nonconformists into camps?
You're feeling it too, as are a few here it seems.
And now France has just gone into lockdown. It's incredible how quickly this is happening.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-coronavirus-france-lockdown-shops-21693960
According to the scenario proposed by the NWO watchers, the debt fuelled ponzi global economy would be allowed to crash and that, together with the threat or actuality of WW3, would be enough to frighten the masses into complying with the new, one world government and accepting the all controlling RFID chip. But this virus is more effective than war as a means of instilling fear. Entire populations can be put into lockdown for their own safety by benevolent governments working on their behalf.
If this is the NWO being rolled out then keep a look out for some kind of charismatic leader who emerges with the promise of a new future for humanity, the brotherhood of man, and peace on earth, that kind of thing!!
Or it might all blow over.
Quote from: Jacob on March 14, 2020, 01:34:13 PM
The vaccine will be the mark of the beast.
Perhaps your RFID chip won't work unless you have the vaccine. And without the RFID chip you can neither buy nor sell, since everything is digital and cash is outlawed.
According to the New York Times, Awkward Customer, there have been 1500 new cases in Spain, about 2250 in 72 hrs in France and 2795 in Italy.
"Officials in Spain reported 1,500 new cases, the largest daily increase in the country so far, pushing its total to 5,703. The government ordered all schools, restaurants and bars to close, extending measures that various regional authorities, including in Madrid and in Catalonia, had taken on Friday.
France announced the closing of all "non-indispensable" businesses as of midnight, including restaurants, bars, and movie theaters, after a sharp uptick in the assault from the coronavirus. French cases doubled over the last 72 hours to about 4,500. There have been 91 deaths, and 300 coronavirus patients are in critical condition — half of them under 50 years of age.
The measures in both countries follow similar moves in Italy, the hardest hit country in Europe. Italy has been locked down since early in the week, with only groceries, pharmacies and banks allowed to operate. On Saturday, the country reported 175 new deaths, with a total of 1,441, and 2,795 new cases, with the total crossing 21,000."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/world/coronavirus-live-updates.html
Quote from: MartinI don't see how this crisis could hinder the NWO. If anything this is exactly what they need to impose restrictions, vaccinations and martial law almost anywhere in the world.
That could have been the intent. Hopefully, the crisis will be resolved in another way. Some are saying the virus will not survive in the hottest months of the year. It's too soon to say for certain, but that's a possibility.
Quote from: AeternitusAnd they now state there are nil serious cases in Iran, so one can expect this death rate to drop significantly - tomorrow.
Per the worldometers site, the new deaths in Iran are about 100. The total active cases are around 7800.
Quote from: KreuzNot literally 30 every day?
175, 250 etc would be significant outliers, though, if the underlying mean really was around 30. But it's probably still too early to say for sure.
In China, we do see a decrease; that was after months of a very effective lockdown. Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong have also been relatively successful thus far in containing the virus. Here are their strategies:
"Since she learned of the coronavirus outbreak, Amy Ho's daily routine has gotten a bit more complicated. Coming home now involves sanitizing her shoes, washing her hands with soap and water, taking off her medical mask and changing her clothes.
The Hong Kong resident ventures outside only by necessity. She walks to and from work. Goes to the grocery store once a week. That's it. Her teenage daughter has only left their apartment twice since the end of January.
"It's annoying, sure. But our health is the most important thing," she says.
Over Easter, the family looked forward to vacationing in the U.K. and Italy. But with the virus raging, they canceled.
Her precautions may sound drastic, but they're hardly unique in a city that was among the first to be swept up in the global coronavirus crisis
That Hong Kong has become a lodestar for its ability to seemingly keep the disease at bay, for now at least, is no accident: it's desperate to avoid repeating the nightmare of a 2003 epidemic. Globally, SARS or severe acute respiratory syndrome, infected over 8,000 and killed 774, including 299 in Hong Kong.
Though SARS devastated many Asian metropolises, in its wake, some doubled down on preparing for the next crisis."
https://time.com/5802293/coronavirus-covid19-singapore-hong-kong-taiwan/
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 14, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
If this is the NWO being rolled out then keep a look out for some kind of charismatic leader who emerges with the promise of a new future for humanity, the brotherhood of man, and peace on earth, that kind of thing!!
Or it might all blow over.
Yes. Being rescued by the jews, i.e. the "vaccine." Whoever the mouthpiece and orchestrator could be, he's the one to usher in the (new and improved) NWO. Everyone lines up, Fox News, CNN, NY Times, Wall Street Journal all group hug, put past animosities aside, and gleefully report that (ersatz) Israel has saved the day!
Quote from: Xavier on March 14, 2020, 03:37:14 PM
Quote from: AeternitusAnd they now state there are nil serious cases in Iran, so one can expect this death rate to drop significantly - tomorrow.
Per the worldometers site, the new deaths in Iran are about 100. The total active cases are around 7800.
Yes, all of which are mild and none serious or critical. So, I repeat, the expectation is that the death rate in Iran will drop significantly – tomorrow. Good news, don't you think?
Iran
7,779
Currently Infected Patients
7,779 (100%)
in Mild Condition
0 (0%)
Serious or Critical
Quote from: Xavier on March 14, 2020, 03:37:14 PM
175, 250 etc would be significant outliers, though, if the underlying mean really was around 30. But it's probably still too early to say for sure.
Not when deaths are seasonally concentrated. And again, nobody knows the underlying cause of these deaths. The tests upon which they base their diagnoses cannot be used to establish that. But yes, while the number of deaths remains so low, it's absurd to infer an epidemic caused by some novel contagious agent.
QuoteIn China, we do see a decrease; that was after months of a very effective lockdown.
There's no evidence one way or the other for China's "lockdown" having curtailed deaths.
QuoteThough SARS devastated many Asian metropolises, in its wake, some doubled down on preparing for the next crisis."
What?
Yes, all of which are mild and none serious or critical. So, I repeat, the expectation is that the death rate in Iran will drop significantly – tomorrow. Good news, don't you think?
QuoteIran
7,779
Currently Infected Patients
7,779 (100%)
in Mild Condition
0 (0%)
Serious or Critical
Even Iran's doctors are doing a better job than Italy's. Italians are constructing, deliberately or not, their fatality rate in a different way so as to significantly increase it up relative to other countries, single-handedly ramping up the hysteria that is shaking the world.
One vaccine maybe on the way....anyone good to investigate the people invoved.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-vaccine-hopes-raised-after-scientists-say-they-have-made-successful-tests-on-mice/ar-BB11bFsR?ocid=spartanntp
While I don't doubt for a second that this virus is dangerous, I can't really say that it qualifies as a pandemic. I am happy to do my bit, take a shut down for the sake of the elderly and getting on top of this virus but really it shouldn't have pandemic status. Just my two cents worth.
Aeternitus, yes it decreased from about 430 (deaths increasing from 85 to 514) to about 100. So let's hope that downward trajectory continues.
Kreuz, well have to wait and see. Here is National Geographic on the issue.
"Whether the coronavirus that's quickly spreading around the world will follow the flu season and subside with spring's arrival is unsatisfyingly uncertain, and many scientists say it's too soon to know how the dangerous virus will behave in warmer weather.
Dozens of viruses exist in the coronavirus family, but only seven afflict humans. Four are known to cause mild colds in people, while others are more novel, deadly, and thought to be transmitted from animals like bats and camels. Health officials have labeled this new virus SARS-CoV-2 and its disease COVID-19.
The prospect that summer could stave off a pandemic is enticing. Last month, President Donald Trump tweeted about China's efforts to contain the virus, saying they would be successful, "especially as the weather starts to warm."
Viruses that cause influenza or milder coronavirus colds do tend to subside in warmer months because these types of viruses have what scientists refer to as "seasonality," so the president's comments have some scientific backing. But it's highly uncertain that SARS-CoV-2 will behave the same way. Those currently studying the disease say their research is too early to predict how the virus will respond to changing weather. (See how coronavirus compares to flu, Ebola and other outbreaks.)
"I hope it will show seasonality, but it's hard to know," says Stuart Weston, a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, where the virus is being actively studied."
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/02/what-happens-to-coronavirus-covid-19-in-warmer-spring-temperatures/
Quote from: Xavier on March 14, 2020, 04:25:24 PM
Kreuz, well have to wait and see. Here is National Geographic on the issue.
Xavier, do you cite National Geographic as an authority when discussing evolutionary theory? Why is it mainstream science is wrong and evil when it comes to wanting to defend Genesis, but creationists will run to it when it comes to the viral theory of disease and pandemics?
LOL.
I guess nearly everyone has sacred cows they've been reared to worship, and questioning them leads to huffs and puffs and being labelled a nutcase. Germ theory is one of the most ubiquitous.
Wow I missed like 5 pages and the thread has assumed am entirely new character. At one point it was James providing solid commentary. Now it is a competition between schizophrenics on who can come up with the most bat shit crazy conspiracy theory.
Checking out of this one.
I'm not labeling anyone anything. I just thought the claim made against me was funny. I am pro-medicine; my mother is a Doctor. If we read Sirach, we see that God says the physician is to have a place of honor.
"Sirach 38 Douay-Rheims (DRA)
38 Honour the physician for the need thou hast of him: for the most High hath created him.
2 For all healing is from God, and he shall receive gifts of the king.
3 The skill of the physician shall lift up his head, and in the sight of great men he shall be praised.
4 The most High hath created medicines out of the earth, and a wise man will not abhor them.
5 Was not bitter water made sweet with wood?
6 The virtue of these things is come to the knowledge of men, and the meet High hath given knowledge to men, that he may be honoured in his wonders.
7 By these he shall cure and shall allay their pains, and of these the apothecary shall make sweet confections, and shall make up ointments of health, and of his works there shall be no end.
8 For the peace of God is over all the face of the earth.
9 My son, in thy sickness neglect not thyself, but pray to the Lord, and he shall heal thee.
10 Turn away from sin and order thy hands aright, and cleanse thy heart from all offence.
11 Give a sweet savour, and a memorial of fine flour, and make a fat offering, and then give place to the physician.
12 For the Lord created him: and let him not depart from thee, for his works are necessary."
We know some Protestants, in the name of faith healing, condemn all medicine. If they had this chapter in their Bible, they would probably see it differently. Now, I believe God works miracles; but He also expects us to have recourse to the ordinary means imo. For us, we see it differently. God Himself has given us herbs in Nature with medicinal properties, and given man the knowledge and skill to make a good use of them.
Evolution is completely different. The Church has confiscated documents attesting Communists and Freemasons promoted that lie to destroy belief in God's Creation, weaken Christianity etc. Saints have condemned it also. Let's see how this coronavirus thing goes down.
God Bless.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 14, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
I guess nearly everyone has sacred cows they've been reared to worship, and questioning them leads to huffs and puffs and being labelled a nutcase. Germ theory is one of the most ubiquitous.
Explain the Spanish Flu Pandemic. Killed upwards of 50 million if not more. Hardly a Spring-time detoxifying cleanse.
edit
Quote from: christulsa on March 14, 2020, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 14, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
I guess nearly everyone has sacred cows they've been reared to worship, and questioning them leads to huffs and puffs and being labelled a nutcase. Germ theory is one of the most ubiquitous.
Explain the Spanish Flu Pandemic. Killed upwards of 50 million if not more. Hardly a Spring-time detoxifying cleanse.
Why don't you instead explain how you come to presume a microbial pseudo-organism that was never isolated from its victims and shown to cause disease in healthy human beings to have caused the "Spanish flu". That will spare me having to "explain", that is speculate about, an event that is no longer a possible object of proper scientific analysis; but in you have to wonder why flu symptoms, under the terrain model of disease, would appear in a population that had just gone through the most devastating years of war in history, subject to gross malnutrition, extreme stress, and an environment that had been pumped full of the pollutants of the military-industrial manufacturing process, not to mention over 100,000 tonnes of deadly chemical weapons dispersed into the atmosphere, I can't help you.
The evidentiary fruit of proper scientific hypotheses is in effective technology. And still to this day, no effective flu vaccine, and no matter what doctors do or what "antivirals" they administer to you, they can't by the methods that presume a viral agent as cause shorten your suffering by one day. What a cartload of horsecrap.
Whatever is in the air, on the surface, on the wall or in the sink is not responsible for what is going on around the world. Scientists and doctors have been alarming the politicians and presidents for at least 2 years now and nobody is listening. Welcome to the new 5G world. If you consider this a tin foil hat conspiracy then go back to your coronavirus tv craze.
Listen to this. seriously. everybody should know about this. There are many many other reputable scientists and doctors who talk about this new technology. milliliter waves are very dangerous
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh8DNKmDGk0&fbclid=IwAR2jodc2NSg4sHQ786gR-52uU4thk6ZqRmUqnSdiQ0gyj4yiU3exotk9vRE[/yt]
USA 2836 confirmed cases. 57 deaths.
Italy 21,000 cases, 1441 deaths. Death rate at 175 today. Better.
The video posted: https://www.bitchute.com/video/00CkyMwWWlIM/ is well worth watching. The situation looks very dire.
Here's the article based on it: https://www.ccn.com/billionaire-whistleblower-wuhan-coronavirus-death-toll-is-over-50000/
"A Chinese billionaire and whistleblower who lives in U.S. exile says Wuhan crematoriums have burned 50,000 coronavirus victims. | Credit: Chinatopix via AP
The official coronavirus death toll in China is a little over 800. But an exiled Chinese businessman says crematoriums are leaking the real figure.
A billionaire whistleblower alleges Wuhan has crematoriums working 24/7. He claims they've cremated some 50,000 coronavirus victims.
Guo Wengui is a Chinese billionaire living in exile in the United States.
The official coronavirus death toll is some 800 people in China. The current official death toll worldwide, outside of China, is 774. But a Chinese billionaire with a history of blowing the whistle on his former government says the real figure is much higher.
Exiled Chinese businessman Guo Wengui recently revealed leaks from Wuhan crematoriums. He claims based on the number of bodies their furnaces are burning, the death toll could be as high as 50,000. Wengui made the bombshell allegations in an interview with former White House chief strategist Steve Bannon.
Whistleblower: 1.5 Million Coronavirus Cases In China, 50,000 Coronavirus Deaths In Wuhan
He also claims to have inside information that there are 1.5 million confirmed coronavirus cases in China. Wengui is emphatic that these are not merely quarantined or "under observation" but confirmed cases of coronavirus infection:
So I got inside information. The truth is 1.5 million people is not only [an] observation, [it] is confirmed [cases]. And the number of people who have died, as the burned bodies show, [is] more than 50,000.
China has struggled to contain the coronavirus. But it has also struggled to contain public outcry against censorship and tight control of information. Dr. Li Wenliang, who sounded the alarm about the disease, succumbed to an infection and died this week. The Chinese government arrested him for blowing the whistle.
Then officials tried to suppress news of his death. Afterwards, millions of Chinese citizens saw the hashtag #IWantFreedomOfSpeech on Mandarin language social media. But the Chinese government censored that too ...
Crematoriums Are Working Overtime To Handle Coronavirus Death Toll
Wengui says there are 49 crematoriums in Wuhan, and they've been working 24/7 for 17 days. Last week, a crematorium worker identified as "Mr. Yun" told a Chinese newspaper he and co-workers have been working 24 hours a day:
Almost all staff at each funeral home in Wuhan are fully equipped, and all Wuhan cremation chambers are working 24 hours.
Mr. Yun says at his location alone, 100 body bags are required a day. The Epoch Times does have a strong anti-communist party bias, but it has not failed any fact checks in the past. And its reporting in the case of Mr. Yun was picked up by the Daily Mail.
Not all the bodies going into the Wuhan crematoriums are victims of coronavirus. There is still the usual number of deaths from other causes. But these account for a small number of the new round-the-clock pace of cremations.
One crematorium manager told a Hong Kong reporter that, in normal times, his 24 ovens were lit five days a week for four hours at a time. Now, he said, they have so many corpses to deal with that all the ovens are going around the clock.
With reports like these, and the Chinese government's history of suppressing information to maintain its idea of order, the official coronavirus figures are very questionable."
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 14, 2020, 06:43:39 PM
Listen to this. seriously. everybody should know about this. There are many many other reputable scientists and doctors who talk about this new technology. milliliter waves are very dangerous
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh8DNKmDGk0&fbclid=IwAR2jodc2NSg4sHQ786gR-52uU4thk6ZqRmUqnSdiQ0gyj4yiU3exotk9vRE[/yt]
That's Dr. Magda Havas a Professor at Trent University in Peterborough, Ontario, my home stomping ground.
Quote from: Xavier on March 14, 2020, 12:26:53 AM
...
Patrick Buchanan's Article says Coronavirus may end up destroying the new world order: "It may one day be said that the coronavirus delivered the deathblow to the New World Order ... " https://buchanan.org/blog/will-the-coronavirus-kill-the-new-world-order-138281
...
Well Pat Buchanan does have a point though. The corona virus is certainly putting an end to the silly idea of open borders. And if it doesn't curtail global trade (aka globalization) it should. That's two major blows against the New World Order in my books.
They shutdown the Masses. So.....
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FRmGQVEj.jpg&hash=dd8b59e4060a16783d85997e972ceec28ba03a54)
I hope there is no tacit euthanasia practiced on the elderly as this coronavirus crisis goes on. Yet it is a tough decision. But shouldn't hospitals try to help the most critically ill patients first? Perhaps the choices that have been made thus far account for the fatality rate in Italy - 6.8% - being roughly double the world's average - 3.4%.
"The number of people infected by coronavirus in Italy has risen by around 20% in one day to 21,157 ...
The country has been put on lockdown with strict emergency measures in place to prevent the deadly bug's spread ...
Italy's ageing population leaves it in a particularly vulnerable position, with a fatality rate of 6.8% – double the World Health Organisation (WHO) estimate of 3.4% ... A document written up by a crisis management team in the city of Turin said that victims who are over 80 or in poor health could be denied beds if hospitals are overloaded with patients, the Sunday Telegraph reports."
https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/14/italy-coronavirus-cases-jump-20-21000-12398751/?ito=cbshare
It isn't euthanasia in any form if they literally do not have the capability of giving aid. A hospital only has so many ventilators, it only has so many litres of oxygen supply, it only has so many nurses that can keep these machines operating. The hospitals are way overloaded and so it is now a question of whom among these many critically ill patients should we use our extremely limited resources on?
Quote from: King Wenceslas on March 14, 2020, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 14, 2020, 02:01:29 PM
Quote"The average age of the dead patients with coronavirus is 80.3 years; women are only the 25.8%. The average age of the deceased is much higher of that of other positive people. The mortality peak is between 80 and 89 years. Lethality, i.e. the number of deceased among the ill, is higher among the over 80", the president of the Istituto Superiore di Sanità Silvio Brusaferro explained. He added that "two patients of age lower than 40 died: one, a woman, 39 years old and with a neoplastic pathology, died in hospital; another person of 39 who died at home had some comorbidity factors, like diebetes, obesity and other ailments". The institute is always at work to confirm to what extent the coronavirus has a direct role in the deaths. "Still ander analysis are the medical records of two dead persons with no cronic diseases. However, 46% of the deceased had two or more pre-existing pathologies", Brusaferro added."
Now, they can pretend that this number of deaths in a day is unusual for flu season, but it's not. But just run some tests for markers of a virus to go along with the symptoms, without any historical data to demonstrate these markers have not always been present in the population, and you have an epidemic. And, instead of placing people who show up at hospitals sick in general wards or sending them home with some medication, you treat them as if they had ebola and place them in ICU. Then, with everyone with a sniffle now running to the hospitals out of fear generated by a media campaign, you have ICUs overflowing and give the impression of a runaway infectious disease sweeping through the population at alarming rates. For the sheeple, perception is "reality".
Spot on.
Just left Walmart. What a zoo. Sheeple cleaning out row upon row.
Insanity is rare among individuals. Insanity is the norm in the mob.
Family business has taken me to a small Pennsylvania town this weekend in the middle of nowhere.
Yesterday I went to the local grocery store and the entire town was there. The toilet paper: gone. The cleaning supply aisle: empty. One of the workers brought a box of disinfectant wipes from the back and just handed them out to the zombie like mob descending on him when they saw.
Now for the facts. There are 47 supposed cases in total in PA with ZERO in the county I'm in. I guarantee that around here your chances of dying of opioid overdose is many hundreds of times higher than even contracting "coronavirus."
If any personal good has come from this it certainly has clarified in my eyes just how much power the media has in forming public opinion and behavior. Just keep feeding the masses fear and uncertainty on a 24 hour news cycle and: presto....instant, mindless mob behavior.
EDIT:
Incidently, the large and well stocked produce section where you can buy organic, nutrient rich food...yeah...nobody in that section. But the frozen food aisle sure was getting hit.
I'm staying home today, my 5 year old has a cough, its a strange sounding one. My daughter had a sore throat last Sunday (kept her home on her own) and she said the main thing about it was that it felt cold when she breathed in, no other symptoms though. So because its different to the 'norm' I'm going to self isolate for another week.
I actually can't trust my local mass centre to behave properly. A few are offended that the St Patricks day party is cancelled by the priest, arguing that we should trust in God, obviously yes but you still don't get to throw caution to the wind. If you're miffed that the party was cancelled and you think the world is over reacting, how can I trust you to actually stay at home if you do feel sick. I know talking to one trad whose spouse was at home with the kids last Sunday, as the spouse had flu symptoms along with shortness of breath (classic Covid 19) and their kids have runny noses, rolled their eyes about the virus and said we'll all be coming to mass next sunday when spouse is feeling better. What would you do?
I'm praying here all morning to make sure that fear is not driving my decision to stay at home but also I am certain that keeping my kids at home is the right thing to do for today. I think I'll go to resistance mass next sunday because their priest is taking this seriously, he is offering mass but told everyone to not hang around after while at my mass centre biddies haven't a care in the world.
Quote from: abc123 on March 15, 2020, 03:25:33 AM
Quote from: King Wenceslas on March 14, 2020, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 14, 2020, 02:01:29 PM
Quote"The average age of the dead patients with coronavirus is 80.3 years; women are only the 25.8%. The average age of the deceased is much higher of that of other positive people. The mortality peak is between 80 and 89 years. Lethality, i.e. the number of deceased among the ill, is higher among the over 80", the president of the Istituto Superiore di Sanità Silvio Brusaferro explained. He added that "two patients of age lower than 40 died: one, a woman, 39 years old and with a neoplastic pathology, died in hospital; another person of 39 who died at home had some comorbidity factors, like diebetes, obesity and other ailments". The institute is always at work to confirm to what extent the coronavirus has a direct role in the deaths. "Still ander analysis are the medical records of two dead persons with no cronic diseases. However, 46% of the deceased had two or more pre-existing pathologies", Brusaferro added."
Now, they can pretend that this number of deaths in a day is unusual for flu season, but it's not. But just run some tests for markers of a virus to go along with the symptoms, without any historical data to demonstrate these markers have not always been present in the population, and you have an epidemic. And, instead of placing people who show up at hospitals sick in general wards or sending them home with some medication, you treat them as if they had ebola and place them in ICU. Then, with everyone with a sniffle now running to the hospitals out of fear generated by a media campaign, you have ICUs overflowing and give the impression of a runaway infectious disease sweeping through the population at alarming rates. For the sheeple, perception is "reality".
Spot on.
Just left Walmart. What a zoo. Sheeple cleaning out row upon row.
Insanity is rare among individuals. Insanity is the norm in the mob.
Family business has taken me to a small Pennsylvania town this weekend in the middle of nowhere.
Yesterday I went to the local grocery store and the entire town was there. The toilet paper: gone. The cleaning supply aisle: empty. One of the workers brought a box of disinfectant wipes from the back and just handed them out to the zombie like mob descending on him when they saw.
Now for the facts. There are 47 supposed cases in total in PA with ZERO in the county I'm in. I guarantee that around here your chances of dying of opioid overdose is many hundreds of times higher than even contracting "coronavirus."
If any personal good has come from this it certainly has clarified in my eyes just how much power the media has in forming public opinion and behavior. Just keep feeding the masses fear and uncertainty on a 24 hour news cycle and: presto....instant, mindless mob behavior.
You are certainly correct about the media, what you cannot say for certain is that there are zero in your county. Test kits are €5k here, so they have a very high criteria for qualifying for a test and the doctors are going mad asking the gov to lower the criteria as they are missing genuine virus infected people.
What is certain, there is a virus, it is far more contagious than flu and we are only in the first quarter of the year so you can't compare the numbers with ordinary flu just yet, it is deadly for the elderly, hospital resources in western society are not able to cope with the rise in the infected. So governments are not prepared to spend on test kits, people infected but unconfirmed at home and hospitals cannot treat everyone so people infected are sick at home. Therefore we have a duty to these people to limit the virus access to all people to protect those elderly and vulnerable. If that makes me a sheeple then baah baah.
I've been a trad since I was 15 and I've heard it all -every war that broke out was going the be the big one. Every blue moon and blood moon was sign of the end times, Gorbachev had the mark of the beast on his forehead , he is the antichrist. Each pope was the last pope, earthquakes, hurricane Katrina, tsunami 04, sign of the end times. Global elite are going to kill all the over 65's off and we will have to be chipped. I've heard all the Armageddon prophecies you can think of......yet when a worldwide contagious virus appears in your local hospital and told to you by nurses you know, attacking the elderly and probably a tool to bring 'order out of chaos'.....nothing to see hear folks , its a false flag!!!!
Quote from: james03 on March 14, 2020, 06:50:27 PM
USA 2836 confirmed cases. 57 deaths.
Italy 21,000 cases, 1441 deaths. Death rate at 175 today. Better.
The whole of Italy in lockdown because of 1441 deaths.
France too, and now Spain. Semana Santa processions cancelled.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1255219/spain-coronavirus-latest-update-lockdown-movement-restriction-announcement-covid-19-cases
What madness is this?
Quote from: diaduit on March 15, 2020, 03:48:30 AM
I've been a trad since I was 15 and I've heard it all -every war that broke out was going the be the big one. Every blue moon and blood moon was sign of the end times, Gorbachev had the mark of the beast on his forehead , he is the antichrist. Each pope was the last pope, earthquakes, hurricane Katrina, tsunami 04, sign of the end times. Global elite are going to kill all the over 65's off and we will have to be chipped. I've heard all the Armageddon prophecies you can think of......yet when a worldwide contagious virus appears in your local hospital and told to you by nurses you know, attacking the elderly and probably a tool to bring 'order out of chaos'.....nothing to see hear folks , its a false flag!!!!
One question about the people who went into a panic over blood moons, Gorbachev's birthmark, earthquakes, hurricanes etc. Are they the same people who are in a panic over this virus by any chance?
Some people love a good panic. Makes them feel alive.
Your dilemma over Mass attendance is real though. You'll probably get a different answer from everyone you ask. Just do what you sincerely feel is right, as everyone else will.
https://denvercatholic.org/colorado-dioceses-cancel-all-masses-until-further-notice/
https://fromrome.info/2020/03/15/why-that-3-4-mortality-rate-is-a-lie/
still in bed w the flu since Wed, almost entirely 24/7, covered by a thick comforter, drinking tons of water, taking lots of supplements. no fever, trouble breathing or dry cough which is good. but still quite a bit of lethargy and today hit with chills. im not in great health but have no chronic illness. im thinking i may need a couple more days of bed rest.
how long does it take for you all to get over the flu? to be able to go back to work? in other words, days of bed rest?
Quote from: christulsa on March 15, 2020, 09:40:13 AM
still in bed w the flu since Wed, almost entirely 24/7, covered by a thick comforter, drinking tons of water, taking lots of supplements. no fever, trouble breathing or dry cough which is good. but still quite a bit of lethargy and today hit with chills. im not in great health but have no chronic illness. im thinking i may need a couple more days of bed rest.
how long does it take for you all to get over the flu? to be able to go back to work? in other words, days of bed rest?
Well I guess I won't be seeing you before we leave then. Bummer.
See you in CO when you visit!
Quote from: Gardener on March 15, 2020, 10:35:13 AM
Quote from: christulsa on March 15, 2020, 09:40:13 AM
still in bed w the flu since Wed, almost entirely 24/7, covered by a thick comforter, drinking tons of water, taking lots of supplements. no fever, trouble breathing or dry cough which is good. but still quite a bit of lethargy and today hit with chills. im not in great health but have no chronic illness. im thinking i may need a couple more days of bed rest.
how long does it take for you all to get over the flu? to be able to go back to work? in other words, days of bed rest?
Well I guess I won't be seeing you before we leave then. Bummer.
See you in CO when you visit!
When are you hitchin the horses to the wagon?
Quote from: christulsa on March 15, 2020, 09:40:13 AM
still in bed w the flu since Wed, almost entirely 24/7, covered by a thick comforter, drinking tons of water, taking lots of supplements. no fever, trouble breathing or dry cough which is good. but still quite a bit of lethargy and today hit with chills. im not in great health but have no chronic illness. im thinking i may need a couple more days of bed rest.
how long does it take for you all to get over the flu? to be able to go back to work? in other words, days of bed rest?
Chris, I got flu at Christmas 17th dec, the shortness of breath came the following Sunday morning and lasted 2 weeks. Looking back I def had the virus. You can see on the prayer forum, my requests at the time. Blessing of the sick worked for me.
Awkward, this is the hilarious thing, the blood moon (I'm not one(watchers are the ones who don't believe it and I'm the one now who is thinking we need to be cautious about this virus.
Quote from: christulsa on March 15, 2020, 10:40:00 AM
Quote from: Gardener on March 15, 2020, 10:35:13 AM
Quote from: christulsa on March 15, 2020, 09:40:13 AM
still in bed w the flu since Wed, almost entirely 24/7, covered by a thick comforter, drinking tons of water, taking lots of supplements. no fever, trouble breathing or dry cough which is good. but still quite a bit of lethargy and today hit with chills. im not in great health but have no chronic illness. im thinking i may need a couple more days of bed rest.
how long does it take for you all to get over the flu? to be able to go back to work? in other words, days of bed rest?
Well I guess I won't be seeing you before we leave then. Bummer.
See you in CO when you visit!
When are you hitchin the horses to the wagon?
We head west on Thursday.
[yt]https://youtu.be/XPpzHYKpndk[/yt]
Quote from: Gardener on March 15, 2020, 12:01:31 PM
[yt]https://youtu.be/XPpzHYKpndk[/yt]
Haha. But Heinrich is predicting martial law by Easter, G.
Quote from: diaduit on March 15, 2020, 11:26:31 AM
Quote from: christulsa on March 15, 2020, 09:40:13 AM
still in bed w the flu since Wed, almost entirely 24/7, covered by a thick comforter, drinking tons of water, taking lots of supplements. no fever, trouble breathing or dry cough which is good. but still quite a bit of lethargy and today hit with chills. im not in great health but have no chronic illness. im thinking i may need a couple more days of bed rest.
how long does it take for you all to get over the flu? to be able to go back to work? in other words, days of bed rest?
Chris, I got flu at Christmas 17th dec, the shortness of breath came the following Sunday morning and lasted 2 weeks. Looking back I def had the virus. You can see on the prayer forum, my requests at the time. Blessing of the sick worked for me.
Awkward, this is the hilarious thing, the blood moon (I'm not one(watchers are the ones who don't believe it and I'm the one now who is thinking we need to be cautious about this virus.
how many days sick before able to return to work?
From dec 16th to Jan 18 th (I'm at home with the kids) and another couple of weeks to feel back to normal completely.
Me watching all these people who would be out of bed in a day with a vitamin C IV but refuse to listen because because a century of medical dogma that was force-fed to them from childhood.
(https://volteface.me/app/uploads/2016/01/Jean-Luc-Picard-star-trek-the-next-generation-37408274-1024-768-1024x768.png)
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 15, 2020, 01:02:21 PM
Me watching all these people who would be out of bed in a day with a vitamin C IV but refuse to listen because because a century of medical dogma that was force-fed to them from childhood.
Can we mainline Emergen-C or snort lines of it instead? Asking for a friend.
Hear How Colds and Flu Can Be Eiminated Using Vitamin C IV Therapy
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xapvoEyj3o[/yt]
"Experimental treatment". Lol. People have known about this forever, but "simple" and "inexpensive" are the last words the medical industry want to hear.
Stunning Success! Vitamin C Saves People Dying of Sepsis
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJKRP8bCvOQ[/yt]
Doctors didn't want to allow it. These stupid bastards will kill you before they will accept a reality that contradicts their medical dogmas.
Vitamin C The Miracle Swine Flu Cure - 60 Minutes Living Proof
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au-mp6RZjCQ[/yt]
Kreuz, there's no money in the cure. right?
here is another article worth reading
https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/does-2019-coronavirus-exist?fbclid=IwAR20NMouu556jtXztZRy_BUGhXg2LRH3gEEbGRmYeIHd4Wz8pxtpxsTFugQ
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 15, 2020, 01:25:10 PM
Kreuz, there's no money in the cure. right?
here is another article worth reading
https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/does-2019-coronavirus-exist?fbclid=IwAR20NMouu556jtXztZRy_BUGhXg2LRH3gEEbGRmYeIHd4Wz8pxtpxsTFugQ
There's no money in healthy people!
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 15, 2020, 09:18:49 AM
https://fromrome.info/2020/03/15/why-that-3-4-mortality-rate-is-a-lie/
The virus is a hoax according to this article.
I agree. The virus is a well orchestrated psy-op designed to get everyone locked down for some purpose.
Quote from: christulsa on March 15, 2020, 12:18:23 PM
Haha. But Heinrich is predicting martial law by Easter, G.
Heinrich might be right.
Quote from: diaduit on March 15, 2020, 11:26:31 AM
Awkward, this is the hilarious thing, the blood moon (I'm not one(watchers are the ones who don't believe it and I'm the one now who is thinking we need to be cautious about this virus.
Oh, that's interesting. Perhaps they've developed apocalypse fatigue or something.
I don't believe it either. There may be a flu-like virus which is fatal for older vulnerable people, as is the flu. But as the article posted by Martinnyc points out, it's impossible to know the death rate unless the total number of those infected is known, including those who only have the mildest symptoms. And there's no way of knowing that. The points raised in the article have been raised before, elsewhere.
They're putting entire countries into lockdown for a few thousand deaths. I don't trust them. Something's going on. It just doesn't feel right. If an elderly person with existing conditions catches flu and dies, what killed them - the virus or their underlying conditions which have been exacerbated by the virus. And isn't this what always happens with flu like viruses?
I saw a news item earlier today about an app designed by the Chinese which can trace everyone an infected person has had contact with, physical contact as in meetings, social occasions etc, and inform them of their need to be tested. It's all sounding a bit too totalitarian for my liking.
awkwardcustomer, Russia has not followed suit. The didn't suspend soccer matches for one. Poland was literally shut down after the first couple of cases. My grandma say that people in my hometown are going nuts clearing shelves in the supermarkets. It is such a tiny town that it is virtually impossible for the virus to reach them unless someone implanted it there. And guess what they also canceled daily Mass. Madness never seen before/ what is going on?
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 15, 2020, 02:32:02 PM
awkwardcustomer, Russia has not followed suit. The didn't suspend soccer matches for one. Poland was literally shut down after the first couple of cases. My grandma say that people in my hometown are going nuts clearing shelves in the supermarkets. It is such a tiny town that it is virtually impossible for the virus to reach them unless someone implanted it there. And guess what they also canceled daily Mass. Madness never seen before/ what is going on?
The same here, empty shelves in supermarkets, which I've never seen around here before, started appearing a couple of days ago. So far I haven't heard of any Masses being cancelled though. Here in the UK, the plan is to let the virus spread among those deemed not at risk so that they build up what the government calls 'herd immunity', while the vulnerable isolate themselves. Which means that the borders are still open and the UK is a bit of an outlier in terms of its response to the virus. Russia seems to have been keeping a low profile throughout all this.
Which may be a sensible response. Lay in some supplies, unobtrusively, and keep a low profile with the health authorities.
As for what's going on - well, the headlines get more alarming by the day and the lockdown advances at a pace. At this rate, martial law by Easter is entirely possible with the digital, totalitarian tyranny of the new world order not far behind.
It fits what's going on.
Do not focus on the case numbers, the death numbers, the assumed CFRs, as all of this is still very unknown and subject to far too much manipulation in either direction.
Look for anecdotal evidence suggesting there is a big problem. What do I look for? Stories of hospitals overflowing with pneumonia patients requiring ICU ventilators or else they perish gasping for air. Every hospital bed filled and people dying in hallways. Nurses and doctors saying they've never seen anything like this before and they are highly emotional. Either this is happening and thus there is a problem, or its not and there is not a problem.
If you are focusing on the numbers and using them to guarantee or deny that anything is wrong, you are willfully fooling yourself. The numbers are obviously wrong (in which direction yet to be determined). What will not be wrong are stories of slammed hospitals.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 15, 2020, 04:51:47 PM
Do not focus on the case numbers, the death numbers, the assumed CFRs, as all of this is still very unknown and subject to far too much manipulation in either direction.
Look for anecdotal evidence suggesting there is a big problem. What do I look for? Stories of hospitals overflowing with pneumonia patients requiring ICU ventilators or else they perish gasping for air. Every hospital bed filled and people dying in hallways. Nurses and doctors saying they've never seen anything like this before and they are highly emotional. Either this is happening and thus there is a problem, or its not and there is not a problem.
If you are focusing on the numbers and using them to guarantee or deny that anything is wrong, you are willfully fooling yourself. The numbers are obviously wrong (in which direction yet to be determined). What will not be wrong are stories of slammed hospitals.
Those have already happened in Northern Italy.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 15, 2020, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 15, 2020, 04:51:47 PM
Do not focus on the case numbers, the death numbers, the assumed CFRs, as all of this is still very unknown and subject to far too much manipulation in either direction.
Look for anecdotal evidence suggesting there is a big problem. What do I look for? Stories of hospitals overflowing with pneumonia patients requiring ICU ventilators or else they perish gasping for air. Every hospital bed filled and people dying in hallways. Nurses and doctors saying they've never seen anything like this before and they are highly emotional. Either this is happening and thus there is a problem, or its not and there is not a problem.
If you are focusing on the numbers and using them to guarantee or deny that anything is wrong, you are willfully fooling yourself. The numbers are obviously wrong (in which direction yet to be determined). What will not be wrong are stories of slammed hospitals.
Those have already happened in Northern Italy.
Yes, and in Wuhan & Diamond Princess as well.
USA: 3,587 cases, 68 deaths
Italy: 24,747 cases, 1,809 deaths, 365 deaths today (10x higher rate than K. reported as average).
Exponential in rest of Europe.
I'm forecasting 13,000 cases in the USA next Sunday. Italy will be pushing 100,000. I think after that Italy will hit peak growth and start to break over into an "S" curve due to the quarantines.
Alexander Tschugguel, the gentleman who threw the idols into the Tiber, is apparently very unwell from the virus and in need of prayers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPblvcuzb24
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 15, 2020, 07:38:08 PMDo not focus on the case numbers, the death numbers ... What will not be wrong are stories of slammed hospitals.
Utter nonsense. Nothing can be determined without looking at the numbers. At current numbers, whether this pandemic exists or not, "slammed hospitals" are a result of treating "cases" as if they had a deadly disease, filling up ICUs with people who would in normal times not be there, together with the panic that is making people seek out treatment who would normally never go to hospital over these symptoms. Without huge numbers of deaths from these symptoms, there's no basis to infer otherwise.
QuoteI think after that Italy will hit peak growth and start to break over into an "S" curve due to the quarantines.
And here's why this racket is unfalsifiable.
When this alleged pandemic fails to sweep through the populace and kill large swathes of people, which would indicate there was no pandemic to begin with, this will be attributed to the draconian governmental measures. And you will site here, still cock sure in the truth of this nonsense. What a farce.
Pray Powerfully, dear friends; and add fasting if you can. It may well be that God's Prayer Warriors around the globe have a role to play in hastening the resolution of this crisis. I hope the world turns to God and acknowledges that all its healing and safety comes from Him. He may provide a remedy through ordinary natural means or in any other way that pleases Him.
Things unfortunately seem to be getting worse, just as was feared, before they will eventually get better:
"Coronavirus: EU states record highest one-day death toll
The three states bearing the brunt of the coronavirus pandemic in Europe have all recorded their highest death tolls for a single day.
Italy saw 368 deaths bring its total to 1,809, Spain recorded 97 more deaths for a total of 288, and France reported 29 deaths, giving a total of 120.
The UK also saw a single-day record, with 14 new deaths and a total of 35.
Governments across Europe have responded by curbing the movements of citizens and tightening borders.
Germany is to impose controls on its borders with France, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark and Luxembourg as of Monday morning, while Portugal will clamp down on its frontier with Spain.
The Czech government has introduced stringent lockdown measures: people will be allowed to go to and from work and buy food or medicine, and make urgent family visits, but otherwise free movement will be severely limited from midnight (23:00 GMT) on Sunday until 24 March.
Austria is banning gatherings of more than five people from Monday, and the Republic of Ireland is asking pubs to shut until 29 March.
Schools will be closed across many European states." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51901976
6500 deaths and 170,000 infections in at least 158 countries around the globe so far: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
QuoteGovernments across Europe have responded by curbing the movements of citizens and tightening borders.
Germany is to impose controls on its borders with France, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark and Luxembourg as of Monday morning, while Portugal will clamp down on its frontier with Spain.
The Czech government has introduced stringent lockdown measures: people will be allowed to go to and from work and buy food or medicine, and make urgent family visits, but otherwise free movement will be severely limited from midnight (23:00 GMT) on Sunday until 24 March.
Austria is banning gatherings of more than five people from Monday, and the Republic of Ireland is asking pubs to shut until 29 March.
They're imposing the friggin Gestapo on us and some of you people are cheering it on. Denying travel, imposing curfews, banning gatherings, closing businesses, locking us in and passing new laws while nobody is looking or cares.
QuotePray Powerfully, dear friends; and add fasting if you can.
Fasting during a time of alleged disease sweeping through the world. Make sure your body is undernourished. What sound advice, Xavier!
Some people will deny it till they see their neighbors dying in the streets. Don't fast if you can't; and by all means stock up on all the provisions you need. But those who look at the crisis from a supernatural perspective will know prayer and fasting can hasten its end. So do that if you can, to the extent you can, but not if you cannot. Biblical precedents of defeating disaster by prayer and fasting abound beyond measure; just a sample one below.
Joel 2:[12] Now therefore saith the Lord: Be converted to me with all your heart, in fasting, and in weeping, and in mourning. [13] And rend your hearts, and not your garments, and turn to the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, patient and rich in mercy, and ready to repent of the evil. [14] Who knoweth but he will return, and forgive, and leave a blessing behind him, sacrifice and libation to the Lord your God? ... [26] And you shall eat in plenty, and shall be filled: and you shall praise the name of the Lord your God, who hath done wonders with you, and my people shall not be confounded for ever.
Quote from: Xavier on March 16, 2020, 04:09:17 AM
Some people will deny it till they see their neighbors dying in the streets.
:cheesehead: :cheesehead: :cheesehead:
And you will continue to parrot this nonsense even after nobody dies in the streets and the whole thing passes with a purported global death toll of 10-20k.
Now tell me again how you can reject mainstream biological science and National Geographic when it comes to their central theory of evolution but parrot it when it suits your dogmatic convictions about germ theory.
You've disqualified yourself from talking about anything related to viruses and disease when you suggest to people
not to eat during a pandemic.
Heh. You don't even believe there's a pandemic, so what are you going on about? I'm not dogmatic about non-dogmatic things. I reject evolution because it is contrary to God's Revelation on Creation; to the Faith, in other words. I couldn't care less if persons don't believe in non-dogmas and won't try to convince them, so I'm not going to play your game.
Last I checked, this is a Catholic and Christian Forum, and not an Atheistic or Secularistic one. If you deny the power of prayer and fasting to end crises, you deny the Gospel itself. I hope you don't. It's Lent and this is a Traditional Catholic Forum; and there is nothing unreasonable in saying those who can fast - not those who can't - should try to do so. The most confident Catholics I know fast a lot; and far from supposedly being weakened because of it are strengthened in spirit by their fast, receive many blessings - and feast later on when the time comes for it. Catholics have every right to fast and no one can forbid it.
I'm going to post some Bible verses on great victories won through fasting that wouldn't have been without it:
Jud 20:24 And when the children of Israel went out the next day to fight against the children of Benjamin, 25The children of Benjamin sallied forth out of the gates of Gabaa: and meeting them, made so great a slaughter of them, as to kill eighteen thousand men that drew the sword. 26Wherefore all the children of Israel came to the house of God, and sat and wept before the Lord: and they fasted that day till the evening, and offered to him holocausts, and victims of peace offerings, 27And inquired of him concerning their state. At that time the ark of the covenant of the Lord was there, 28And Phinees, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, was over the house. So they consulted the Lord, and said: Shall we go out any more to fight against the children of Benjamin, our brethren, or shall we cease? And the Lord said to them: Go up, for to morrow I will deliver them into your hands.
At 6:14pm on 14th March (which equates to 10:14pm GMT) I posted the following figures with regard to Iran : 7,779 Currently Infected Patients: 7,779 (100%) in Mild Condition; 0 (0%) Serious or Critical, which I pasted directly from the website to which Xavier posted a link. My comment was that the expectation would be nil deaths the next day (15th March) due to there being nil serious or critical cases recorded on 14th March.
However, that was not the case: The number of deaths recorded for Iran for 15th March is 113, which was an increase from 97 deaths on the 14th March. So although there were no critical or serious cases as at 10:14pm on 14th March, there were 113 deaths the next day?!!
I smell a rat...
Below are the figures for today 16th March as at 10:30 am GMT: It will be interesting to see how many deaths are attributed to the Covid19 for the 16th March for Iran, considering there are still nil serious or critical cases. Oh, yes, I know there are still 13.5 hours to go for serious/critical cases to develop and not be recorded...
IRAN
ACTIVE CASES
8,624
Currently Infected Patients
8,624 (100%)
in Mild Condition
0 (0%)
Serious or Critical
Quote from: Xavier on March 16, 2020, 05:02:10 AM
Heh. You don't even believe there's a pandemic, so what are you going on about? I'm not dogmatic about non-dogmatic things. I reject evolution because it is contrary to God's Revelation on Creation; to the Faith, in other words. I couldn't care less if persons don't believe in non-dogmas and won't try to convince them, so I'm not going to play your game.
Stop trying to lead away from the point. Again: you dismiss and appeal to, reject and parrot, the authorities of science and their dogmas however it suits you. This makes you an inconsistent hypocrite.
QuoteIf you deny the power of prayer and fasting to end crises, you deny the Gospel itself.
I deny that fasting during an alleged pandemic, putting those who do it at extreme risk of sickness, is a good idea.
"Pius IX. The year after the publication of Darwin's evolution thesis, the Provincial Council of Cologne issued the following canon, which was approved by Pope Pius IX:
"Our first parents were immediately created by God (Gen.2.7). Therefore we declare as quite contrary to Holy Scripture and the Faith the opinion of those who dare to assert that man, in respect of the body, is derived by spontaneous transformation from an imperfect nature, which improved continually until it reached the present human state." [10] http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/cbutel/humanevo.html
The count is being independently tracked by many different sources: for e.g. here is a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw You can come back to check the same source later on.
The number of deaths in Iran, if I recall right, was at 85. Then there were 430 the next day. It came to 514. And deaths continued, but at a decelerating pace. So, it was something like 100 the next days. According to the above, it is at 853 now.
Quote from: Xavier on March 16, 2020, 05:47:11 AM
The number of deaths in Iran, if I recall right, was at 85. Then there were 430 the next day. It came to 514. And deaths continued, but at a decelerating pace. So, it was something like 100 the next days. According to the above, it is at 853 now.
No, there have never been 430 deaths in one day in Iran. 85 were recorded in a single day on 12th March and the deaths have increased since 10th March. The highest daily death tally in Iran is 113 yesterday, 15/03/2020. But that was not my point.
My point is that there have been nil serious or critical cases recorded since 14/03 and yet there were 113 deaths recorded for 15/03. So what did these 113 people die from if there were nil serious/critical cases relating to Covid-19 on 14/3? And what will the Iranian deaths, which I now presume will be recorded tomorrow for 16/03, die from considering there are still nil serious/critical cases recorded in Iran? Do people now die from mild, non-serious cases of Covid-19? Or do they die from something else, but it is being attributed to Covid-19, further fuelling the panic?
Quote from: Aeternitus on March 16, 2020, 06:35:44 AM
Or do they die from something else, but it is being attributed to Covid-19, further fuelling the panic?
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!
https://youtu.be/ABTcpIZE_mM
Ok, I think the critical/non-critical classification is perhaps off. But maybe it is the case that the number in critical condition is being under-reported.
Something that may support that possibility: there were several reports even earlier that there are mass graves in Iran, per satellite imagery.
"Satellite images show what are believed to be mass graves for coronavirus victims outside the Iranian city of Qom, according to the Washington Post.
Two large trenches extending 100 yards in total were excavated in a new section of the graveyard at the Behesht-e Masoumeh complex. The digging began as early as Feb. 21 ...
Social media videos shared by BBC Persian earlier this month show men carrying a casket to a trench described as "the section for coronavirus victims," The narrator says more than 80 people had been buried there so far "and they say only 34 deaths," apparently referring to the official death toll on Feb. 28.
Some of the videos show a large pile identified as white lime. Iran health officials previously confirmed the use of lime in controlling decay and odor when burying coronavirus victims." https://www.sfgate.com/world/article/Mass-graves-of-Iranian-coronavirus-victims-seen-15127307.php
QuoteAnd you will continue to parrot this nonsense even after nobody dies in the streets
At least have the decency to fairly represent my position, as in "for the vast majority of people this is the flu."
"The main threat is economic".
But yes, this will break over to an S curve. That's just logic. But I will predict that the number of pneumonia deaths in Italy will be a lot higher than normal. And I repeat, it will be old people and people with lung problems.
Let's examine three of the theories:
There is no Virus (TNV): This strikes me as very unlikely. The virus has been isolated and can be studied by anyone interested in that field of research: ""Now that we have isolated the SARS-CoV-2 virus, we can share this with other researchers and continue this teamwork," he said. "The more viruses that are made available in this way, the more we can learn, collaborate and share." https://sunnybrook.ca/research/media/item.asp?c=2&i=2069&f=covid-19-isolated-2020
Death tolls are much less everywhere (DTML): DTML seems unlikely, at least in those countries that have a fairly free press, because there are several independent trackers of the cases and count. Are they all colluding and conspiring against us?
Death tolls are under-reported in some countries (DTUR): DTUR could be true in those countries which still lack possibilities for independent verification. E.G. the death toll is almost certainly accurate in Italy, where almost everybody could verify it. It may not be the case in e.g. Iran, where hardly anybody could as yet confirm it. Time will tell.
Here's the latest from Iran: "COVID-19 has killed a member of the clerical body that appoints the supreme leader, according to Iranian state media, the latest official in the country to die of the highly infectious disease caused by the new coronavirus.
Ayatollah Hashem Bathayi Golpayegani, 78, died two days after testing positive for the new coronavirus and being hospitalised, state news agency IRNA reported on Monday ...
The country has been scrambling to contain the rapid spread of coronavirus which so far has infected some 14,000 people and killed 853 - 129 of whom over the past 24 hours, according to official figures" https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/iran-reports-113-virus-deaths-containment-concerns-mount-200315180552632.html
https://fromrome.info/2020/03/13/scientists-question-the-validity-of-the-pandemic-classification/
Scientists question the validity of the Pandemic classification
March 13, 2020 From Rome Editor
by Br. Alexis Bugnolo
As the main stream media and leftist politicians and religious leaders go into absolute panic mode, voices of sane individuals in the medical, scientific and statistical fields are questioning the underlying characteristics of Corona virus epidemic.
On Feb. 24, 2020, the Italian Insider published one of the first calls against the Panic Syndrome, by Dr. Gismondo, Diretor of Clinical Macrobiology, Virology and Bioemergency Diagnostics at Sacco Hopital in Milan:
However, Maria Rita Gismondo, director of Clinical Macrobiology, Virology and Bioemergency Diagnostics at the Sacco Hospital in Milan where possible coronavirus cases are analyzed, has said that many cases look more like serious flu than coronavirus. "It's not a pandemic! Mortality from influenza is at 217 deaths per day during the past week! For Coronavirus one!!!" she wrote in a widely reported Facebook status.
Jackson Ryan, writing for Cnet, the internet magazine, on March 11, was one of the few to cite the extreme danger of labeling an infection a pandemic, citing no less than the head of the World Health Organization himself:
Pandemic is not a word to use lightly or carelessly. It is a word that, if misused, can cause unreasonable fear, or unjustified acceptance that the fight is over, leading to unnecessary suffering and death," said Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, WHO director-general, at a press briefing.
This same WHO Director, according to Ryan, has put major doubt into the mass media reporting of 3.4% mortality rate for Corona virus infections. As I observed yesterday, from only a brief study of the data — I hold a degree in Cultural Anthropology and am trained in statistical analysis of social phenomena — when he quoted Ghebreyesus discounting the numbers:
"Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died," said WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus during a press conference on March 3. "By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected." However, experts are unconvinced, because limited testing across the world, along with the mild symptoms that many infected experience suggests there may be many people currently undiagnosed with COVID-19 and this would push the fatality rate lower. On the other hand, if deaths are under-reported, perhaps 3% is conservative.
Moreover, it seems that COVID-19 does not even merit the fears of a pandemic. As Ryan cites:
A widely shared Twitter thread by Eric Feigl-Ding, a Harvard University epidemiologist, suggested the new coronavirus is "thermonuclear pandemic level bad" based on a metric known as the "r nought" (R0) value. This metric helps determine the basic reproduction number of an infectious disease. In the simplest terms, the value relates to how many people can be infected by one person carrying the disease. It was widely criticized before being deleted.
The criticism, however, confirms what Dr. Feighl-Ding said, as the reporter at The Atlantic reported:
First, the R0 estimates for the new coronavirus are in line with those for many other diseases. They're similar to those for SARS (2 to 5) and HIV (also 2 to 5), and considerably lower than those for measles (12 to 16).
As we know, from HIV, the World Health Organization never declare a pandemic. There is probably a political reason, too, for HIV, because a protected political elite class is involved, but the R0 Values also tell a story.
The top experts in the Medical profession also are betraying that they are not convinced that COVID-19 is transmissable through the air, as Ryan reports:
On Feb. 29, US Surgeon General Jerome Adams issued a plea on Twitter for people to stop indiscriminately snapping up masks. "Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!" the tweet said. "They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can't get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!"
Jeremy Brown, writing at The Atlantic, confirms that face masks are not really helping anyone. They should be used only by those who are actually infected, as Ryan of Cnet remarks, but Brown explains why most are wearing them, in his article comparing Corona Virus with the Spanish Flu of 1918:
If the terrible influenza pandemic of 1918 and the current coronavirus outbreak share one feature, it is this: People are terribly afraid. In December 1918, in the midst of the pandemic, 1,000 public-health officials gathered in Chicago to discuss the disease which had by then killed an estimated 400,000 people over three months. They did not know the cause of the epidemic, they had no treatments, and they had little idea how to control its spread. Face masks, which were then being worn by a large portion of the general public, offered no guarantee of protection (and that remains true of face masks today). Many health officials believed that the masks provided a false sense of security. Perhaps that was correct, but there was still a value in providing any kind of security. Chicago's health commissioner made this clear. "It is our duty," he said, "to keep the people from fear. Worry kills more people than the epidemic. For my part, let them wear a rabbit's foot on a gold watch chain if they want it, and if it will help them to get rid of the physiological action of fear."
As Statisticians in the USA have widely reported, the fear mongering and fear acceptance of possible pandemic are related with the political affiliations of individuals. With a much higher level of panic among left wingers, than conservatives.
In India, there are 114 cases with 2 deaths. People here have closed churches, malls, schools and most other open gatherings for 2 weeks.
"7.59 pm: Tamil Nadu government has announced that all educational institutions, theatres, malls, gyms, amusement parks, swimming pools will remain closed till March 31. The state government announces that no permission has been given for rallies, public meetings, summer camps, conferences, exhibitions, cultural, or sporting events till March 31, reports ANI."
https://scroll.in/latest/956288/coronavirus-number-of-cases-in-india-spikes-to-110-italy-reports-368-deaths-in-a-single-day
Bare with me, I'm going somewhere with this.(apologies in advance for poor writing skills :) )
30thnov/ Dec 2nd 2019, I feel a head cold and a bit off for the week end.
Dec 16th me my husband and children were at a holiday camp for 4 days. Tues Dec 17th, I wake up with full blown flu. Now I'm a flu girl, I don't get tummy bugs, headaches, sinus, pms or anything else, I get a flu every 2/3 years and its usually nasty for one full week. So I thought - great timing but at least it will be over by Christmas.
The following Saturday at home from our break, after extreme fatigue, fever and sweating, dizziness, I begin to see the first signs of recovery.
Next morning, bam- I gave regressed and now I have very bad shortness of breath (see my prayer requests at that time), getting up from the chair to wash a few dishes in the sink leaves me short of breath. It continues for two weeks, Christmas day I slept 3 times during the day. I still have fever but I am able to do menial tasks if I rest in between.
Went to Drs when the shortness of breath came. Got antibiotics and steroids. It didn't even take the edge off. Went again 7 days later and by this time I begged for nebuliser (I worked in pharmacies pre getting married) which gave me relief for a few hours. New antibiotics and extra steroids. For three days I got terrible side effects from 2nd antibiotic which gave me awful insomnia and anxiety with heart flutters. So I had enough and went to the hospital emergency room on New years night. They took bloods and Xray, bloods showed a sign that there was an infection, xray came back clear. The Dr was telling me this while I was sitting in front of him breathing in short breaths . He gave me a different antibiotic and told me to stay on the steroids. At home I stopped taking steroids as I just couldn't face any more insomnia even though it is listed as a side effect of the antibiotic.
Just keep in mind that our Christmas flu season was far higher in numbers than any previous years and was up by an extra 10 or 15% , our health minister went on tv and radio telling people to stay at home and rest as the hospitals were not able to cope with the numbers arriving.
I attended my last First Friday 2 days later and while there I asked my priest to give me a blessing of the sick which he did. Next day I was much better and I continued to recover. The following Saturday - mid jan was my first weekend to feel normal again.
Ok, stay with me.
3 of my siblings had the exact same dose but with an unmerciful cough that wouldn't shift with steroids or antibiotics. 2 of the siblings know this dose came from their workplace which has hundreds of employees (they work in the same place). My 82 yr old Dad is sitting pretty like a king on a throne while we are falling around helpless with the dose. I was so delighted that he didn't pick it up. Mid jan , he falls and cuts his head badly. Goes to hospital to get stitched, while there a dr did an xray and discovers Dad had mild pneumonia. I was so upset as we minded him so well and he had escaped the flu so we thought.
Ok, since Corona virus breakout , I am convinced I had this virus especially after reading the Dr who was there at ground zero at the beginning, sequencing the virus (on this thread). His timeline/symptoms matches exactly with mine. Week 1 - flu, week 2- shortness of breath , both sudden appearances. Week 3 you either get critical or get well. At the time I thought wow this flu is different, I have never experienced anything like it before and I used to get tonsillitis so bad. My siblings match every symptom including unshakeable cough.
Seemingly the quarantine centres were hotbeds for bacterial pneumonia as a secondary infection, my DAD!!
Ive been tempted to post this but I was thinking I would be considered to be a hypochondriac.
If I did have the virus, I can assure you it is severe and I can totally see how an elderly person with an underlying problem would succumb to it. I have never given any worry or thought to previous 'outbreaks' such as swine flu (I was heavily pregnant on last breakout), ebola, sars, mers, bird flu blah blah blah, I am not an Armageddon watcher but also being aware and believing we are in the end times though, so I didn't think we would be back to hunting wild boar when the 08 recession hit. I'm not that worried if the pope doesn't wear red shoes and I don't look for reds under the beds. However this virus/economic fall out is DIFFERENT.
That being said, so far Ireland has had only two deaths. Now if I had the virus and it is here since early dec, then why are we not experiencing high numbers of deaths. If I didn't have the virus, still, since our first confirmed case two weeks ago we only have two deaths and keep in mind that we operated as normal even after the cluster outbreak in Italy, our numbers are low. And I don't believe we are at a pandemic stage yet.
So I know the virus is real but are the deaths happening like it says. Ireland is too small to not know someone in ICU from this virus. Just talking to a Catholic friend of mine , he was in hospital visiting his elderly mother and eh says that a dr shook his hand and rolled her eyes when he remarked about it. No signs yet of sever cases here and again , we are too small not to know.
I think the virus is real, different and can be severe but do we need a lock down, lately I'm swinging against it. Are we fanning the flames of which I am guilty of but at the same time, I don't want my Dad to get unwell, he really is a noble Catholic gent so for his sakes I 'm taking precautions.
Anybody else apart from the usuals here, having doubts.?
Quote from: Xavier on March 16, 2020, 08:38:06 AM
Let's examine three of the theories:
There is no Virus (TNV): This strikes me as very unlikely. The virus has been isolated and can be studied by anyone interested in that field of research: ""Now that we have isolated the SARS-CoV-2 virus, we can share this with other researchers and continue this teamwork," he said. "The more viruses that are made available in this way, the more we can learn, collaborate and share." https://sunnybrook.ca/research/media/item.asp?c=2&i=2069&f=covid-19-isolated-2020
No it hasn't. This is an entirely misleading use of words. No virus has been "isolated". No virus has fulfilled Koch's germ theory postulates.
QuoteThey don't want you to visit Hospitals
They don't want you at Sport events
They don't want you at the Movies
They don't want you at work
They don't want you at School
Because you will see no one has the "virus"
Real eyes see real Lies
Please do me a favor and watch this attentively.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk8WlboGtTM[/yt]
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 09:17:33 AM
Went to Drs when the shortness of breath came. Got antibiotics and steroids. It didn't even take the edge off.
So your doctors prescribed and you agreed to taking microbiome- and immune-destroying antibiotics for "flu" without even an identification of any bacterial agent of your illness?
By the way, has anyone here ever taken prescription antibiotics for some other issue than sickness, like doxy for belpharitis or acne, and
not come down with symptoms of cold or flu? This stuff
makes people sick. My sister was recently on antibiotics for an eye problem and came down with a supposed urinary tract infection that has led to debilitating problems for over a year. But, of course, she doesn't want to listen to my dietary advice.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 16, 2020, 03:39:52 AM
Fasting during a time of alleged disease sweeping through the world.
In addition to the spiritual benefits, fasting is very good for your immune system.
https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/
Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system Protection from chemotherapy immunosuppression indicates effect could be conserved in humansIn the first evidence of a natural intervention triggering stem cell-based regeneration of an organ or system, a study in the June 5 issue of the Cell Stem Cell shows that cycles of prolonged fasting not only protect against immune system damage — a major side effect of chemotherapy — but also induce immune system regeneration, shifting stem cells from a dormant state to a state of self-renewal.
In both mice and a Phase 1 human clinical trial involving patients receiving chemotherapy, long periods of not eating significantly lowered white blood cell counts. In mice, fasting cycles then "flipped a regenerative switch," changing the signaling pathways for hematopoietic stem cells, which are responsible for the generation of blood and immune systems, the research showed.
Learn more: Fasting-mimicking diet
A low-calorie fasting-like diet, plus chemotherapy, enables the immune system to recognize and kill skin and breast cancer cells, according to a new USC-led study on mice.
Evidence is mounting that a diet mimicking the effects of fasting has health benefits beyond weight loss, with a new USC-led study indicating that it may reduce symptoms of multiple sclerosis.
A diet that mimics fasting appears to slow aging.
The study has major implications for healthier aging, in which immune system decline contributes to increased susceptibility to disease as people age. By outlining how prolonged fasting cycles — periods of no food for two to four days at a time over the course of six months — kill older and damaged immune cells and generate new ones, the research also has implications for chemotherapy tolerance and for those with a wide range of immune system deficiencies, including autoimmunity disorders.
"We could not predict that prolonged fasting would have such a remarkable effect in promoting stem cell-based regeneration of the hematopoietic system," said corresponding author Valter Longo, Edna M. Jones Professor of Gerontology and the Biological Sciences at the USC Davis School of Gerontology and director of the USC Longevity Institute. Longo has a joint appointment at the USC Dornsife College of Letters, Arts and Sciences.
"When you starve, the system tries to save energy, and one of the things it can do to save energy is to recycle a lot of the immune cells that are not needed, especially those that may be damaged," Longo said. "What we started noticing in both our human work and animal work is that the white blood cell count goes down with prolonged fasting. Then when you re-feed, the blood cells come back. So we started thinking, well, where does it come from?"
Fasting cycles
Prolonged fasting forces the body to use stores of glucose, fat and ketones, but it also breaks down a significant portion of white blood cells. Longo likens the effect to lightening a plane of excess cargo.
During each cycle of fasting, this depletion of white blood cells induces changes that trigger stem cell-based regeneration of new immune system cells. In particular, prolonged fasting reduced the enzyme PKA, an effect previously discovered by the Longo team to extend longevity in simple organisms and which has been linked in other research to the regulation of stem cell self-renewal and pluripotency — that is, the potential for one cell to develop into many different cell types. Prolonged fasting also lowered levels of IGF-1, a growth-factor hormone that Longo and others have linked to aging, tumor progression and cancer risk.
"PKA is the key gene that needs to shut down in order for these stem cells to switch into regenerative mode. It gives the OK for stem cells to go ahead and begin proliferating and rebuild the entire system," explained Longo, noting the potential of clinical applications that mimic the effects of prolonged fasting to rejuvenate the immune system. "And the good news is that the body got rid of the parts of the system that might be damaged or old, the inefficient parts, during the fasting. Now, if you start with a system heavily damaged by chemotherapy or aging, fasting cycles can generate, literally, a new immune system."
Prolonged fasting also protected against toxicity in a pilot clinical trial in which a small group of patients fasted for a 72-hour period prior to chemotherapy, extending Longo's influential past research.
"While chemotherapy saves lives, it causes significant collateral damage to the immune system. The results of this study suggest that fasting may mitigate some of the harmful effects of chemotherapy," said co-author Tanya Dorff, assistant professor of clinical medicine at the USC Norris Comprehensive Cancer Center and Hospital. "More clinical studies are needed, and any such dietary intervention should be undertaken only under the guidance of a physician."
"We are investigating the possibility that these effects are applicable to many different systems and organs, not just the immune system," said Longo, whose lab is in the process of conducting further research on controlled dietary interventions and stem cell regeneration in both animal and clinical studies.
Quote from: Maximilian on March 16, 2020, 09:34:00 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 16, 2020, 03:39:52 AM
Fasting during a time of alleged disease sweeping through the world.
In addition to the spiritual benefits, fasting is very good for your immune system.
That's not what the study you cite says, which regards fasting in the context of prolonged exposure to toxic chemotherapy drugs and rebooting a damaged immune system. Having a healthy immune system is impossible without adequate nutrition, which most people already lack, and performing a typical Catholic fast, cutting out animal products, is the last thing one would want to do.
I just saw pictures (posted on facebook page) of military vehicles with covid 19 tags. People say within 72 hours Trump is going to declare martial law or something like that. Could be photoshopped but the martial law idea is very possible.
Martin, is the claim that (1) there is no virus, or (2) the virus is caused by 5G technology?
Anyway, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Germany#First_week_of_March coronavirus cases began doubling in week 1 of March in Germany. By week 2, the number doubled again and quadrupled from the original to over 1200 cases. WE are on week 3 now and the confirmed number of total cases in Germany now is 6,672. So, here's a rough estimate of the multiplier effect.
Week 0: 300, say X.
Week 1: 600, or, 2X.
Week 2: 1200, or 4X.
Week 3: 6600, or 20X+.
Many of our countries are still only in week 0 or week 1 currently. That may explain the lethargy about it. But if Germany is any indicator, we may be only a couple of weeks away from that kind of rapid multiplication. The difference with flu etc - not only 10 times deadlier than the flu; and far more contagious - is that we have no preventive measure to work against or even slow down the disease other than prudent quarantines for now. So until a cure is developed, the best defense is taking every possible precaution to contracting it imo. Such measures would buy some time at least, and could potentially reduce infection rates. In some countries, there may be evidence that such quarantines have worked.
The situation in China: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/19/dissent-becomes-another-victim-of-coronavirus-as-china-cracks-down
"Citizens of Wuhan say they are forbidden from even taking strolls in their neighbourhood and shopping for food. "People are gripped by fear and anxiety, and we are extremely angry because this disaster is entirely manmade," said a Wuhan resident who spoke on condition of anonymity to avoid reprisals.
"If they didn't detain Dr Li Wenliang for 'spreading rumours' and told us the virus was under control, none of this would have happened."
The whistleblowing doctor alerted colleagues in late December to a mysterious disease that turned out to be coronavirus. Wuhan police censured him on 3 January and state television CCTV accused eight people, including Li, of "spreading false rumours". Li's death from coronavirus infection this month sparked widespread demands for speech freedom online, although cyber-police quickly took down those posts.
But the authorities do not seem to have learned their lesson. Cases of further crackdowns on speech abound. While the new decree from Wuhan said people would be punished for not reporting cases, it also warned that "fabrication" and the spread of "rumours" would be severely punished ...
"This epidemic poses the gravest challenge to the authorities since 1989 [the Tiananmen pro-democracy movement]," he said. "I have never seen so much demand for speech freedom – people now understand it is a matter of life and death. The authorities are afraid that people have awakened."
Johnny Lau, a veteran commentator on Chinese politics, said the Communist party's intensification of control over free speech was aimed at bolstering the power of the regime but would ultimately cause political and social instability.
"When people are kept in the dark and they don't trust the government, their [discontent] would turn into protests," Lau said."
Xavier, 5G runs on different frequencies. The lowest is 600Mhz and the highest 60Ghz. It can be expanded and go up to or over 100Ghz, some say it may even be set on 300Ghz. In December of last year China switched 5G on at 60Ghz. There is 130,000 5G towers and antennas in Wuhan and surrounding areas. There are no studies on 5G on human beings but I have read about animal testing and how flock of birds drop dead when exposed to strong RFs like what 5G is capable of. This technology can be used as a weapon and I have been warning about this for about a year now. This is not a tin foi hat nonsense but a real and a serious thing. Satellite 5G will be soon available. There will be no place on earth that 5G coudnt reach. As for the virus or a bioweapon being used it just could be a part of the double whammy. There are maps showing where 5G is up and running and the highest number of cases correspond to it.
https://www.5gcrisis.com/post/urgent-fcc-approves-9-7-billion-payment-to-free-up-satellite-spectrum-for-5g
Thanks, Martin. I'll have to investigate the possible 5G connection to the deaths later on.
I just got this whatsapp message; along the lines of the weeks thing. For e.g. were in wk 3.
"Corona Virus Cases..
New York
wk 1 - 2
wk 2 - 105
wk 3 - 613
France
wk 1 - 12
wk 2 - 191
wk 3 - 653
wk 4 - 4499
Iran
wk 1 - 2
wk 2 - 43
wk 3 - 245
wk 4 - 4747
wk 5 - 12729
Italy
wk 1 - 3
wk 2 - 152
wk 3 - 1036
wk 4 - 6362
wk 5 - 21157
Spain
wk 1 - 8
wk 3 - 674
wk 4 - 6043
India
Week 1 - 3
Week 2 - 24
Week 3 - 105
Next two weeks are crucial for India.
If we take adequate precaution and break the chain then we can tide the Corona virus Outbreak else we have a big problem in hand especially for the elderly population
So far so good. India has done well so far in its fight to contain Corona Virus. Now we are in stage 3 in which Virus spreads through social contacts & in social gatherings. This is most critical stage & number of confirmed cases spread exponentially everyday like what happened in Italy between last week of February & second week of March. From 300 to 10,000. If India is not able to manage this stage for next 3 to 4 weeks then we could have confirmed cases not in Thousands but in Lakhs. This next one month is crucial. That is why most events & public gatherings have been closed till 15th April.
Just because schools are closed avoid getting that compulsive travel & Holiday bug. Holidays will come next year too why try your luck with Corona specially with children. Marriage functions, Birthday parties etc can wait. Don't try your luck & that bravado that nothing will happen to me. Next 30 days will be most crucial in medical History of India. Take all precautions while at home & while outside for any important work. Precaution is not panic.
Be a responsible citizen by following & educating others to remain careful for next one month.
*#CoronaVirus*"
The numbers in India are low because there in no 5G yet.
Quote from: Xavier on March 16, 2020, 10:52:10 AM
Thanks, Martin. I'll have to investigate the possible 5G connection to the deaths later on.
I just got this whatsapp message; along the lines of the weeks thing. For e.g. were in wk 3.
"Corona Virus Cases..
New York
wk 1 - 2
wk 2 - 105
wk 3 - 613
France
wk 1 - 12
wk 2 - 191
wk 3 - 653
wk 4 - 4499
Iran
wk 1 - 2
wk 2 - 43
wk 3 - 245
wk 4 - 4747
wk 5 - 12729
Italy
wk 1 - 3
wk 2 - 152
wk 3 - 1036
wk 4 - 6362
wk 5 - 21157
Spain
wk 1 - 8
wk 3 - 674
wk 4 - 6043
India
Week 1 - 3
Week 2 - 24
Week 3 - 105
Next two weeks are crucial for India.
If we take adequate precaution and break the chain then we can tide the Corona virus Outbreak else we have a big problem in hand especially for the elderly population
So far so good. India has done well so far in its fight to contain Corona Virus. Now we are in stage 3 in which Virus spreads through social contacts & in social gatherings. This is most critical stage & number of confirmed cases spread exponentially everyday like what happened in Italy between last week of February & second week of March. From 300 to 10,000. If India is not able to manage this stage for next 3 to 4 weeks then we could have confirmed cases not in Thousands but in Lakhs. This next one month is crucial. That is why most events & public gatherings have been closed till 15th April.
Just because schools are closed avoid getting that compulsive travel & Holiday bug. Holidays will come next year too why try your luck with Corona specially with children. Marriage functions, Birthday parties etc can wait. Don't try your luck & that bravado that nothing will happen to me. Next 30 days will be most crucial in medical History of India. Take all precautions while at home & while outside for any important work. Precaution is not panic.
Be a responsible citizen by following & educating others to remain careful for next one month.
*#CoronaVirus*"
Getting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
https://medium.com/@fergal.reid/predicting-the-impact-of-coronovirus-on-ireland-bff1b6d00d6a
Ok, this guy is Irish and he is doing a prediction for us here and it is scary reading.
However, this part of an opinion of Bruce Aylward at the end of the piece.
The Bi et al. data above shows covid-19 is infecting children, so his comments are at least partly out of date. But his assessment that there are not many unseen mild cases, and comments on Chinese healthcare, remain relevant:
"More of a surprise, and this is something we still don't understand, is how little virus there was in the much broader community. Everywhere we went, we tried to find and understand how many tests had been done, how many people were tested, and who were they.
In Guangdong province, for example, there were 320,000 tests done in people coming to fever clinics, outpatient clinics. And at the peak of the outbreak, 0.47 percent of those tests were positive. People keep saying [the cases are the] tip of the iceberg. But we couldn't find that. We found there's a lot of people who are cases, a lot of close contacts — but not a lot of asymptomatic circulation of this virus in the bigger population. And that's different from flu. In flu, you'll find this virus right through the child population, right through blood samples of 20 to 40 percent of the population.
Now maybe this will wake some of you up. The devil has outdone himself. The operation depopulation is underway. Who can stop this?
https://fourfoldhealing.com/blogs/news/massive-predicted-effects-of-5g
QuoteMassive Predicted Effects of 5G in the Context of Safety Guideline Failures
by Thomas Cowan | February 27, 2020
Massive Predicted Effects of 5G
Professor Emeritus Martin Pall
Massive Predicted Effects of 5G in the Context of Safety Guideline Failures:
Very High-Level VGCC Sensitivity to Low-Intensity EMFs and Especially to Pulsations Feb. 25, 2020
The voltage-gated calcium channel (VGCC) protein molecule contains a four domain structure with each domain carrying an alpha helix, each designated an S4 helix, containing 5 positive charges. Those four charged alpha helixes act together as what is called the voltage sensor, the structure that responds to electrical changes across the plasma membrane to open the channel. It has been shown that not only 4 distinct types of VGCCs, but also a voltage gated sodium channel, potassium channel and chloride channel are all activated by low intensity EMFs of various frequencies, suggesting that the EMFs act on the voltage sensor. In plants, EMFs apparently act via activation of some other channels, known as TPC channels, which also contain a similar voltage sensor. The structure and location of the voltage sensor and two laws of physics, Coulomb's law and Ohm's law, predict that the EMF forces on the voltage sensor are stunningly strong, approximately 7.2 million times stronger than the forces on singly electrically charged groups in the aqueous parts of our cells and bodies. This explains why the voltage sensor is the main direct target of the EMFs. The voltage-gated sodium, potassium and chloride channels apparently play only minor roles in producing EMF effects, so that to a first approximation, effects can be explained as being predominantly from VGCC activation and consequent increases in intracellular calcium [Ca2+]i. This falsifies the industry claim that there are only thermal effects can occur. The VGCC mechanism has been widely accepted in the scientific community as shown be the 247 citations of my first 2013 EMF paper (Google Scholar) and by my 58 different invited professional talks on this topic.
Large numbers of non-thermal pathophysiological EMF effects can be explained through the action of VGCC activation as produced by two different pathways of action shown in Fig. 1 below: the calcium signaling pathway and the peroxynitrite/free radical/oxidative stress/inflammation pathway. These include are 9 types of effects produced from microwave frequency non-thermal effects as shown in from 9 to 38 different reviews: Lowered male and female fertility; increased neurological/neuropsychiatric effects; 3 types of effects on cellular DNA; endocrine (hormonal) effects; increased apoptosis (programmed cell death); cardiac effects on the electrical control of the heart; oxidative stress/free radical damage; excessive [Ca2+]i; cancer.
ICNIRP, EU, UK and other "safety guidelines" are all based on average intensities over a 6 minute period, with allowable exposures set by SAR, a measure of heating. Predictions of these safety guidelines have been tested by 8 different highly repeated types of studies and each of these 8 shows that the safety guideline fail and fail massively. Modulating pulsations, nanosecond pulses and paired nanosecond pulses of identical polarity each produce large effects that the safety guidelines claim cannot be produced. These pulsation effects are of high relevance to 5G because 5G is designed to be very highly pulsed in order to carry vast amounts of information per second because it is the pulsations that carry the information. Other types of evidence showing that the safety guidelines do not predict biological effects include the calcium channel blocker studies which show that low-intensity EMF exposures produce effects through VGCC activation rather than by heating, the many reviews showing non-thermal health impacts discussed above and the findings that there are exposure windows that produce maximum effects but lower and higher intensity exposures produce much lower effects. The failure of the "safety guidelines" to predict biological effects and therefore safety means that these are not safety guidelines. Consequently, any claims of safety made by the multi-trillion euro telecommunications industry based on these "safety guidelines" are simply fraudulent.
These failures of the "safety guidelines" must be considered in terms of the principle that is at the core of the scientific method. That principle is that when we have a scientific theory and we test predictions of that theory and the theory predictions are shown to be false, then we must throw the theory out. It follows that when we have eight highly repeated findings each of which show that the "safety guidelines" do not predict biological effects and do not, therefore, predict safety, it is a scientific requirement that the "safety guidelines" be thrown out. The failure of ICNIRP, the European Commission and various regulatory agencies to throw out the "safety guidelines" clearly shows that their actions are both unscientific and anti-scientific.
Penetration of Millimeter Wave Effects
What can we say, then, about 5G? MM-waves used for 5G also work via VGCC activation. 5G is designed to carry extraordinarily high amounts of information per second and is, therefore, extraordinarily highly pulsed. The electrical parts of these MM-waves do not penetrate well into buildings, such that millions of 5G antennae are planned in close proximity to our home, schools, churches, businesses, etc,
such that it will be nearly impossible to avoid exposures. Given the high pulsation level for 5G radiation, even short exposures may well produce severe biological effects. In addition to this, the finding that 5G systems involve output power sometimes like 30 times higher output than did previous systems, we have an strong argument for disaster (Human exposure to RF fields in 5G downlinkI Nasim, S Kim - arXiv preprintarXiv:1711.03683, 2017 - arxiv.org).
It has been argued by the industry that 5G will only produce effects in the outer millimeter of the body because of the absorption of 5G radiation and other MM-wave frequency EMFs. It is the case that 5G and other millimeter wave frequencies will produce very strong surface effects which are of major concern. But it has also been shown that MM-waves produce highly penetrating effects, impacting human brain function and EEG activity and also impacting many internal organs in animals.
Zalyobokskaya NP, 1977. Biological effect of millimeter radiowaves. Vrachebnoye Delo 3: 116-119. Declassified and Approved for release 2012/05/10: CIA-RDP88B01125R000300120005-6 Levedeva NN, Reactions of the central nervous system to peripheral effects of low-intensity EHF emissions. Approved for release 2000/08/10: CIA-RDP96-00792R000100070001-9 Potekhina IL, Akoyev GN, Yenin LD, Oleyner 1992 Effects of low-intensity electromagnetic radiation in
the millimeter range on the cardiovascular system of the white rat. Fiziol Zh 78:35-41Numerous other citations showing penetrating effects of millimeter waves are cited in: Betskii OY &Lebedeva NN. Low-intensity millimeter waves in biology and medicine. In: Clinical Application of Bioelectromagnetic Medicine, Marcel Decker, New York, pp. 30-61. A very recent paper came to the same conclusion that millimeter waves produce highly penetrating effects for the same reason, extensive empirical evidence: Kostoff et al (Toxicol Lett 2020:323;35-40).
So the industry claims are wrong on this as in so many other areas. How can we get such penetrating effects? The magnetic parts of the coherent EMFs are highly penetrating. They place forces on dissolved ions in the aqueous parts of our cells and bodies, moving those ions and regenerating the electrical parts of the EMFs with the same frequency and pulsations, just much lower intensity. Those can then activate theVGCC voltage sensor because of its extraordinary sensitivity to the electrical forces of even very weak EMFs. So the physics again tells us how the system works on the main actual biological target of the VGC voltage sensor.
The impacts of any full-fledged 5G (it always works together with 4G) will be vastly worse than any initial impacts seen following the turning on of 5G, because initially 5G has little to communicate with, so it will initially have much less pulsation. My six worst nightmares is that 5G will produce widespread in most cases universal or near-universal impact of the following types (and each of these needs to be considered in detail, based on the available evidence):
1. A rapid and irreversible crash in human reproduction to close to zero, based mainly but not solely on the impacts on male reproduction.
2. A rapid (albeit somewhat slower than in 1) crash in our collective brain function produced by massive impacts on human brain
structure and function.
3. Very early-onset Alzheimer's dementia also caused by the human brain impact seen in 2.
4. Autism and ADHD caused primarily by perinatal 4G/5G exposures.
5. Massive deterioration in the human gene pool, caused by the DNA effects in human sperm and possibly also on human eggs.
6. Widespread sudden cardiac death in all age ranges caused by the EMF impacts on the pacemaker cells in the sino-atrial node of the heart.
What are we actually seeing initially from 5G?
The reports of human effects in Switzerland included many reports of neurological/neuropsychiatric effects and also cardiac effects .
https://www.illustre.ch/magazine/5g-sentons-cobayes?utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1kXKK1yWBDKoaZRVOQB7gRvC8o-1a3GyVbQHJPyPkAzzpl73iKYtaiA6QT
There are, of course many reviews reporting such effects, as discussed above, following EMF exposures. The physicians in Stuttgart reported these same two types of effects following 5G rollout and in addition, high amounts of electromagnetic hypersensitivity (EHS).
https://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/inhalt.demo-am-staatsministerium-in-stuttgart-protest-gegen-5-g-in-weissen-arztkitteln.f964401b-85f9-4915-a236-4f3177597300.html
All three of these effects were reported to occur following smart meter exposures in both the Lamech and also the Conrad studies; all three were also reported to occur in the largest EMF occupational exposures studies ever performed as reviewed by Professor Emeritus Karl Hecht. The difference is that the effects appear to be much more severe following 5G exposure as opposed to the occupational exposure studies or even the smart meter studies. I am aware of still more severe apparent 5G neuropsychiatric effects in Southern California, but those have not been published to date. We have every reason to believe that any full fledged 5G system, communicating with the "internet of things" will produce still vastly greater effects than any of these initial findings.
It was proudly announced in England that an ambulance service will be using 5G communication between the ambulances and the hospitals served by them. The first such ambulance, it was proudly announced, was to be put into operation in Coventry in the West Midlands region of the UK:
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/what-is-5g-15108544
So what happened when that 5G ambulance was operational? What happened is that three of the ambulance personnel died within an 11 day period of apparent suicide: Three NHS workers die suddenly while working for same 'toxic' ambulance trust. Could 5G be related? Alan Selby Mirror Sun, 24 Nov 2019 02:23 UTC;
https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2019-11-22/concern-for-welfare-of-east-of-england-ambulance-staff-after-three-deaths-in-11-days/ ; https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2019-11- 22/concern-for-welfare-of-east-of-england-ambulance-staff-after-three-deaths-in-11-days/
Shortly before their deaths a whistleblower wrote to the East of England Ambulance Service NHS Trust's boss complaining about psychological abuse. There are widespread neuropsychiatric effects produced by low-intensity EMF exposures, including depression. Depression can cause suicide and various neuropsychiatric effects may well lead to abusive behavior.
Two large occurrences of panic in cattle in the North Friesland area of the Netherlands correlated with 5G testing exposures:
https://www.melkvee.nl/artikel/191780-koeien-in-paniek-mogelijk-door-testen-5g-netwerk/
This should not be surprising, given that EMF exposures cause neurological/neuropsychiatric effects. Two specific mechanisms are likely to be involved in producing panic in cattle. Excessive VGCC activity produces fear conditioning in animals and in humans (Kabir et al, J Physiol 2016; 20:5823-5837). EMFs also acting via excessive VGCC activity also produce large increases in the release of norepinephrine, the fight or flight hormone. These two are likely to act together to produce panic. The impact of EMFs on milk production in dairy cattle suggests that cattle may be quite sensitive to EMF effects. There are also several incidences of bizarre, aggressive behavior of cattle and sheep from Germany that may also be related to 5G radiation effects:
1.https://www.nordbuzz.de/niedersachsen/niedersachsen-ort29155/papenburg-oldenburg-niedersachsen-schock-schafe-brechen-attackieren-menschen-11833036.html
2.https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/bayern-peiting-kuh-bauernhof-dach-1.4626878
3.https://www.bayerische-staatszeitung.de/staatszeitung/leben-in-bayern/detailansicht-leben-in-bayern/artikel/danger-die-kuh-das-wilde-wesen.html#topPosition
4.https://www.tz.de/bayern/altoetting-bayern-tier-drama-kuh-buext-aus-stall-aus-sie-ueberlebt-ihren-ausflug-nicht-12189661.html
5.https://www.tz.de/bayern/altoetting-bayern-tier-drama-kuh-buext-aus-stall-aus-sie-ueberlebt-ihren-ausflug-nicht-12189661.html
6.https://www.tz.de/welt/ice-strecke-kassel-wuerzburg-kuh-laeuft-in-tunnel-und-legt-bahnverkehr-lahm-zr-11832114.html
Each of these needs to be clearly investigated for possible roles of 5G radiation. The 5th of these is the most clearly linked to 5G because the cow involved is from North Friesland, where cattle were, as noted in the second paragraph above, exposed to 5G radiation. Each of these must be investigated before any final conclusions can be drawn. However given that the "safety guidelines" have been repeatedly shown to fail to predict biological effects and therefore safety and that therefore, all assurances of safety based on those "safety guidelines" are fraudulent, and that there are plausible mechanisms by which EMF exposures can cause these effects, it is essential that the obvious possible cause, electromagnetic field exposures from 5G and/or high antenna density 4G radiation, should be extensively studied.
There have been a series of very unusual human birth defects, in both Germany and France, involving aberrant limb development, such as aberrant hand and finger structure and even missing hands or missing arms.
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/gelsenkirchen-drei-saeuglinge-mit-handfehlbildungen-geboren-16382810.htmlFrance launches nationwide investigation after babies born with missing or malformed limbs
None of the many articles on these limb birth defects have suggested a link to 5G EMF exposures but such a link should be considered. The reason for that is that Bates et al, Ion Channels in Development and Cancer, Annu Rev Cell Dev Biol 2015; 31: 231-247 showed that elevation of both VGCC activity and also elevation of other voltage-gated ion channels can produce aberrant limb development. While the excessive activities of single channels do not produce aberrations identical to those in these recent human birth defects, a combination of excessive voltage-gated ion channel activities may well do so. Among the genetic studies showing that excessive activity of a particular VGCC produce limb developmental defects are the studies on Timothy syndrome. The Timothy syndrome mutation produces much higher VGCC activity because the closing mechanism of the channel is defective, such that activated channels close extremely slowly such that they produce much higher [Ca2+]i. The Timothy syndrome mutation produces not only limb development aberrations but also severe cases of autism and also cardiac effects. Most Timothy syndrome individuals die of apparent sudden cardiac death at age ranges circa 3 to 7 years old – the oldest known Timothy syndrome individual died at age 13. Here we have two effects produced or apparently produced by 5G exposures, the cardiac effects and the limb birth defects and a third proposed to be caused perinatal by 5G exposures, namely autism, all linked in their causation to VGCC activation.
There were hundreds of birds that died of apparent sudden cardiac death during three days of 5G testing in a park near Rotterdam.
https://www.healthnutnews.com/hundreds-of-birds-dead-during-5g-experiment-in-the-hague-the-netherlands/
There had been earlier stories published on these bird deaths where the industry denied doing 5G testing but in this article, it was shown that workers had been told to lie about those tests. It has been shown in rodents that MM-wave exposure (non-pulsed) can cause sudden cardiac death (Potekhina IL, Akoyev GN, Yenin LD, Oleyner 1992 Effects of low-intensity electromagnetic radiation in the millimeter range on the cardiovascular system of the white rat. Fiziol Zh 78:35-41 (in Russian)), making it very plausible that these bird deaths were in fact caused by 5G exposures. A second apparent large epidemic of birds falling out the sky of apparent cardiac death occurred last October shortly after the 5G ambulance was turned on in Coventry (see discussion above): , In October, there were already reports that birds fell down from the sky outside the Coventry hospital, after 5G antennas were turned on to enable the Smart Ambulance 5G wireless system in Coventry. See link: https://www.facebook.com/Francesalexandrina/posts/2704854299560059
Insect will be massively impacted by 5G EMFs. In 2000 and 2001, two US patents issued for the use of millimeter wave EMFs as insecticides (patent #s 6,073,365 and 6,192,598). These were for using nonpulsed EMFs not the extraordinarily pulsed and therefore dangerous 5G EMFs. 5G will likely cause massive fires because of the impact of 5G EMFs on plants. EMFs impact plants producing large increases in intracellular calcium levels which act in turn to produce large increases in highly volatile and highly flammable terpenes. This, in turn, can make the plants burn as if they were sprayed with a light spray of gasoline. We may have seen the first 5G fires. Five cities along the east coast of South Korea, where some of the earliest 5G rollouts in the world occurred, had their 5G systems turned on – late April 3, 2019. The five unprecedented fires occurred in those same cities 1 ½ days later, April 5, 2019!
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/s-korea-launches-5g-networks-early-to-secure-world-first/article26730605.ece;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/05/thousands-flee-homes-wildfires-rip-south-korea/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8799140/south-korea-biggest-wildfire-near-olympic-city/
Other possible 5G fires may have also occurred in 2019 in areas of Southern California where 5G was rolled out, including along I405 freeway.
Role of 5G in the Coronavirus Epidemic in Wuhan China
Wuhan, the capital of Hubei province in China, was chosen to be China's first 5G "smart city" and the location of China's first smart 5G highway. Wuhan is also the center of the horrendous coronavirus epidemic. The possible linkage between these two events was first discussed in an Oct. 31, 2019 article entitled: "Wuhan was the province where 5G was rolled out, now the center of deadly virus"
https://5gemf.com/wuhan-was-the-province-where-5g-was-rolled-out-now-the-center-of-deadly-virus/
The question that is being raised here is not whether 5G is responsible for the virus, but rather whether 5G radiation, acting via VGCC activation may be exacerbating the viral replication or the spread or lethality of the disease. Let's backtrack and look at the recent history of 5G in Wuhan in order to get some perspective on those questions. An Asia Times article, dated Feb.12,2019 (https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/02/article/china-to-launch-first-5g-smart-highway) stated that there were 31 different 5G base stations (that is antennae) in Wuhan at the end of 2018. There were plans developed later such that approximately 10,000 5G antennae would be in place at the end of 2019, with most of those being on 5G LED smart street lamps. The first such smart street lamp was put in place on May 14, 2019 (www.china.org.cn/china/2019-05/14/content_74783676.htm), but large numbers only started being put in place in October, 2019, such that there was a furious pace of such placement in the last 2 ½ months of 2019. These findings show that the rapid pace of the coronavirus epidemic developed at least roughly as the number of 5G antennae became extraordinarily high. So we have this finding that China's 1st 5G smart city and smart highway is the epicenter of this epidemic and this finding that the epidemic only became rapidly more severe as the numbers of 5G antennae skyrocketed.
Are these findings coincidental or does 5G have some causal role in exacerbating the coronavirus epidemic? In order to answer that question, we need to determine whether the downstream effects of VGCC activation exacerbate the viral replication, the effects of viral infection, especially those that have roles in the spread of the virus and also the mechanism by which this coronavirus causes death. Accordingly, the replication of the viral RNA is stimulated by oxidative stress: J Mol Biol. 2008 Nov 28;383(5):1081-96. Variable oligomerization modes in coronavirus non-structural protein 9. Ponnusamy R, Moll R, Weimar T, Mesters JR, Hilgenfeld R.
Other aspects of viral replication including those involved in the spread of the virus are stimulated by increased intracellular calcium [Ca2+]i, oxidative stress, NF-kappaB elevation, inflammation and apoptosis, each of which are increased following EMF exposure. The first citation below shows an important role of VGCC activation in stimulating coronavirus infection.
Virology. 2020 Jan 2;539:38-48. Porcine deltacoronavirus (PDCoV) modulates calcium influx to favor viral replication. Bai D, et al.
J Virol. 2011 May;85(9):4234-45. Distinct severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-induced acute lung injury pathways in two different nonhuman primate species. Smits SL, et al.
Cell Calcium. 2018 Nov;75:30-41. NAADP-dependent Ca2+ signaling regulates Middle East respiratory syndrome-coronavirus pseudovirus translocation through the endolysosomal system. Gunaratne GS, et al.
J Virol. 2011 May;85(9):4234-45. Distinct severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-induced acute lung injury pathways in two different nonhuman primate species. Smits SL, et al.
Proteome Sci. 2011 Mar 8;9:11. Proteomic analysis of chicken embryonic trachea and kidney tissues after infection in ovo by avian infectious bronchitis coronavirus. Cao Z, et al.
Res Vet Sci. 2015 Jun;100:12-7. Serum biomarkers of oxidative stress in cats with feline infectious peritonitis. Tecles F, et al.
J Infect Dis. 2008 Mar 15;197(6):812-6. Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency enhances human coronavirus infection. Wu YH et al.
J Virol. 1998 Jun;72(6):4918-24. Transmissible gastroenteritis coronavirus induces programmed cell death in infected cells through a caspase-dependent pathway. Eleouet JF, et al.
The predominant cause of death from this coronavirus is pneumonia. Pneumonia is greatly exacerbated by each of those five downstream effects of VGCC activation, excessive intracellular calcium, oxidative stress, NF-kappaB elevation, inflammation and apoptosis. The first of the citations listed below shows that calcium channel blockers, the same type of drugs that block EMF effects, are useful in the treatment of pneumonia. This predicts that EMFs, acting via VGCC activation, will produce increasingly severe pneumonia and therefore 5G radiation as well as other types of EMFs may well increase pneumonia deaths.
Zheng et al. 2016 Preadmission Use of Calcium Channel Blockers and Outcomes After Hospitalization With Pneumonia: A Retrospective Propensity-Matched Cohort Study. Am J Ther. 2017 Jan/Feb;24(1):e30- e38.
Fang et al. 2017 Pneumolysin-Dependent Calpain Activation and Interleukin-1? Secretion in Macrophages Infected with Streptococcus pneumoniae. Infect Immun. 2017 Aug 18;85(9). pii: e00201-17.
Fettel et al. 2019 Sphingosine-1-phosphate (S1P) induces potent anti-inflammatory effects in vitro and in vivo by S1P receptor 4-mediated suppression of 5-lipoxygenase activity. FASEB J. 2019 Feb;33(2):1711- 1726.
Liu and Shi. 2019 Calcium-activated chloride channel regulator 1 (CLCA1): More than a regulator of chloride transport and mucus production. World Allergy Organ J. 2019 Nov 29;12(11):100077.
Sci Rep. 2018 Oct 18;8(1):15393. Surfactant protein D attenuates acute lung and kidney injuries in pneumonia-induced sepsis through modulating apoptosis, inflammation and NF-?B signaling. Du J, et al.
Curr Neurovasc Res. 2020 Jan 28. MicroRNA (miR)-429 promotes inflammatory injury by targeting kruppel-like factor 4 (KLF4) in neonatal pneumonia. Zhang L, et al.
Life Sci. 2019 Jul 1;228:189-197. Long noncoding RNA SNHG16 targets miR-146a-5p/CCL5 to regulate LPS-induced WI-38 cell apoptosis and inflammation in acute pneumonia. Zhou Z, et al.
These all argue that 5G radiation is likely to greatly exacerbate the spread of the coronavirus and to greatly increase the lethality of the infections produced by it. The good news is that it is likely that those of us that live in areas with no 5G radiation and who avoid other EMFs wherever possible will probably escape much of the impacts of this prospective global pandemic. It is highly probable that one of the best things Wuhan can do to control the epidemic in the city is to turn off the 4G/5G system.
In summary, we have a series of 5G linked events that have occurred in more than one situation, where we have plausible mechanisms by which 5G radiation can cause them and where we know that counter arguments are based on "safety guidelines" which fail to predict biological effects and are, therefore, fraudulent. These include:
1. Neurological/neuropsychiatric effects reported both in Switzerland and in Stuttgart Germany, effects similar to but more severe than effects caused by other EMF exposures.
2. Three suicides within 11 days of each other in the first 5G ambulance personnel
3. Cardiac effects also reported in both in Switzerland and in Stuttgart Germany, effects similar to those found in in humans in following other EMF exposures as well as in animal experimental studies.
4. Two cases of massive, almost instantaneous 5G bird sudden cardiac death effects, one in the Netherlands and one in the UK.
5. We have cases of mass panic in cattle, as well as unusual aggressive behavior in cattle and sheep.
6. We have multiple cases of human limb birth defects in France and Germany.
7. We have multiple cases of apparent 5G fires in Korea and in Southern California.
8. We have large apparent increases in EHS in Stuttgart Germany. While this is a single example, to my knowledge, similar although more slowly developing examples of EHS have been shown to occur in occupational EMF exposure studies and in the two smart meter studies. The case may be weaker here, because it is based solely on the Stuttgart example, but is still substantial.
9. Four downstream effects produced by EMFs acting via VGCC activation, oxidative stress, NFkappaB elevation, inflammation and apoptosis greatly stimulate both coronavirus infectious process, including aspects involved in viral spreading and also pneumonia, the predominant cause of death in the Wuhan coronavirus epidemic. It follows from this that the "coincidence" that Wuhan, China's first smart 5G city and location of China's first 5G highway and the other "coincidence" that the epidemic was first discovered when high 5G antenna densification started, with the severity of the epidemic and death rate increasing very rapidly as circe 8,000 5G antennae were built all over the city of Wuhan. It is, therefore, highly probable that these are not coincidences but rather involve causal roles of 5G EMFs.
In each of these cases, as stated above, we have plausible mechanisms by which each of them can be produced by 5G EMF exposure and where all contrary claims based on "safety guidelines" are simply fraudulent. In the eight of these of these effects (#8 being an apparent exception), we have a prima facie case for 5G causation. And let me repeat that any effects seen with the initial "rollout" of 5G radiation will be a tiny fraction of those predicted by a mature 5G system interacting with the "internet of things" because any initial 5G system has very little to communicate with on initial rollout and therefore will produce only a tiny fraction of highly pulsed EMF effects of such a mature system. The very high impacts of modulating and nonmodulating pulses mean that the extraordinarily high level of modulating pulses in 5G radiation, with those pulses communicating vast amounts of information per second, means that 5G radiation is vastly more dangerous than the exposures we previously have had and those previous exposures have already having massive impacts on us and on other organisms.
The eight apparent 5G effects listed above do not include other predicted massive effects of 5G radiation where we have no evidence of whether they are occurring or not but where we have evidence of important causal roles of other EMF exposures. These include: 1. Massive impacts on male reproduction, where 5G radiation may well produce very rapid crashes in male reproduction to close to zero.
2. Universal of near universal very early onset Alzheimer's dementias (AD). Here we know that all you have to do to produce universal or near universal very early onset AD in a rat model, is to give a series of EMF pulses during one day and even during one second. If you give pulses every day, you get universal or near universal AD in six month old rats (roughly the equivalent age of a 12 year old child).
3. Universal or near universal autism. We know, from genetic studies, that human autism is caused by excessive VGCC activity and because this is the primary mechanism of action of EMFs, including MM-wave EMFs of 5G, it is highly plausible that the very highly pulsed 5G may cause universal or near universal autism. 4. Very high levels of germ line mutations caused by the impact of 5G radiation acting via VGCC activation on the DNA of human sperm and on the DNA of human oocytes. What this argues is that what little human reproduction survives the effects of #1 may well be heavily impacted by very high levels of de novo mutation.
Possible causation of each of these by 5G radiation could have been tested by animal model studies, before any 5G rollout. It is my opinion that it is an atrocity of almost unbelievable proportions that no such tests have been done. All of this argues that 5G presents threats of the sort that we have never seen before – multiple imminent existential threats to our survival.
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 11:28:01 AMIn flu, you'll find this virus right through the child population, right through blood samples of 20 to 40 percent of the population.
Stop with the lies. Blood tests do not look for the virus. They look for antibodies. There's an enormous difference. Stop pretending there isn't.
I see conspiracy theories are running fast and furious.
We get new viruses from China on a regular basis. This one is not different. It just happens to be more virulent.
In a few years everyone will have had it either by getting it or by vaccination.
The ACE-2 receptor on our cells is the binding site for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. As a result, the ACE-2 receptor is central to many important questions about coronavirus treatment, a COVID-19 vaccine, and should patients continue taking their ACE inhibitor / ARBs (Angiotensin II Receptor Blockers) medications. Dr. Seheult discusses the controversy about some of these questions and illustrates the pathway involved with the ACE-2 receptor.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vZDVbqRhyM[/yt]
QuoteGetting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
Is this the mercy and charity you show to others that you wish the Father to show to you?
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 16, 2020, 05:39:31 PM
QuoteGetting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
Is this the mercy and charity you show to others that you wish the Father to show to you?
Ignore him, he mocked the Irish suffering a famine in 1847-50 where 4 million people starved to death.
Happy St Patricks DAy,
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 05:46:14 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 16, 2020, 05:39:31 PM
QuoteGetting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
Is this the mercy and charity you show to others that you wish the Father to show to you?
Ignore him, he mocked the Irish suffering a famine in 1847-50 where 4 million people starved to death.
Happy St Patricks DAy,
Wait, what? Really?
Quote from: Heinrich on March 16, 2020, 06:03:30 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 05:46:14 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 16, 2020, 05:39:31 PM
QuoteGetting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
Is this the mercy and charity you show to others that you wish the Father to show to you?
Ignore him, he mocked the Irish suffering a famine in 1847-50 where 4 million people starved to death.
Happy St Patricks DAy,
Wait, what? Really?
Yep, I told him to pog mo hoin :)
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on March 16, 2020, 06:03:30 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 05:46:14 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 16, 2020, 05:39:31 PM
QuoteGetting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
Is this the mercy and charity you show to others that you wish the Father to show to you?
Ignore him, he mocked the Irish suffering a famine in 1847-50 where 4 million people starved to death.
Happy St Patricks DAy,
Wait, what? Really?
Yep, I told him to pog mo hoin :)
Maybe he just had a bad experience at an Asian grocery store. :shrug: They can really have a displeasing fishy smell, some of their foods may have been disturbingly strange for him, and the old grandmother at the cash register was talking in her foreign tongue. That or he was raised in a white supremacist home. :shrug:
With entire countries being locked down, the UK is doing something quite different - leaving everything open.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/uk-coronavirus-herd-immunity/2020/03/16/1c9d640e-66c7-11ea-b199-3a9799c54512_story.html
Nothing much has been made to close here. It's all voluntary. The government hopes people will refrain from going to restaurants, pubs, cinemas etc, but nothing is being enforced. The London Marathon has been postponed, but other marathons go on. It's up to the organisers to decide.
Meanwhile, it's all gone quiet partly due to the lack of flights. A couple passed over about an hour ago and that's been all for today. The streets are definitely emptier.
Is the UK the only country following the 'herd immunity' strategy?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 16, 2020, 09:31:42 AM
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 09:17:33 AM
Went to Drs when the shortness of breath came. Got antibiotics and steroids. It didn't even take the edge off.
So your doctors prescribed and you agreed to taking microbiome- and immune-destroying antibiotics for "flu" without even an identification of any bacterial agent of your illness?
By the way, has anyone here ever taken prescription antibiotics for some other issue than sickness, like doxy for belpharitis or acne, and not come down with symptoms of cold or flu? This stuff makes people sick. My sister was recently on antibiotics for an eye problem and came down with a supposed urinary tract infection that has led to debilitating problems for over a year. But, of course, she doesn't want to listen to my dietary advice.
Yea. I know a guy a girl who were both paralyzed by cipro. Also it very common to develop other infection after antibiotic treatment due to microbiome disbalance
Quote from: King Wenceslas on March 16, 2020, 04:08:00 PM
I see conspiracy theories are running fast and furious.
We get new viruses from China on a regular basis. This one is not different. It just happens to be more virulent.
In a few years everyone will have had it either by getting it or by vaccination.
We'll it is very easy to dismiss someone like you just did. 5G is not a theory but a very well established system. Please do some research and don't be ignorant.
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on March 16, 2020, 06:03:30 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 05:46:14 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 16, 2020, 05:39:31 PM
QuoteGetting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
Is this the mercy and charity you show to others that you wish the Father to show to you?
Ignore him, he mocked the Irish suffering a famine in 1847-50 where 4 million people starved to death.
Happy St Patricks DAy,
Wait, what? Really?
Yep, I told him to pog mo hoin :)
I remember that. Had to look it up.
Quote from: Racist JerkGetting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
What sinful hatred. Absolutely disgraceful. You just wished countless millions of innocent people to be killed; you ought to repent of this, if you desire eternal life for yourself. If 1 Jn 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himself."; then, hating people so much that you hope for death on millions of them, and call your death wish for them a good thing, will not make for a pleasant Judgment. The Bible also says, "Woe to you that call evil good ..." (Isa 5:20).
Martin, thanks for the info on 5G. It's true that India hasn't moved to 5G yet; we're still on 4G. The transition was actually planned for this year, but has been interrupted. If it is actually true that 5G has these adverse effects, then it was a good thing not to rush into it.
It also seems to be true, from what I can see, that China has the world's largest 5G network. Wiki says: "China has launched its 5G national network and started commercial operation on 1 November 2019. At launch, Chinese state media called it the world's largest 5G network.[74][75]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G#China which may seem to support your idea. But how do you explain other cases, such as those in Iran for example?
According to this, ""The regulatory is introducing the rules ... we hope we could implement a first version of the 5G network in Iran next year and start offering services," said Jahromi." http://french.presstv.com/Detail/2020/02/13/618603/Iran-5G-internet-network-minister-announcement Iran is only going to implement its first 5G network next year, that is, in 2021. So how do you explain what has already taken place in that country this year?
USA: 4,712 cases, 91 deaths. Market wipe out today.
Italy: 27,980 cases, 2,158 deaths.
QuoteGetting rid of half of the street rats in that shit hole of a country would be the only good thing about this so called virus. Same goes for all the Chinamen.
Brother, take some time to reflect on what you wrote.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 16, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
Please do me a favor and watch this attentively.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk8WlboGtTM[/yt]
How does he explain all the other viruses before the spanish flu? He mentions spanish flu as the first example of what happened when we electrified the world, but all the viruses before that?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES7FuN5WkAUAAdI?format=jpg&name=small)
182,000 cases and over 7,000 deaths so far as of current time. It is around 4:45 GMT, March 17th.
Quote from: Sempronius on March 16, 2020, 10:33:35 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 16, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
Please do me a favor and watch this attentively.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk8WlboGtTM[/yt]
How does he explain all the other viruses before the spanish flu? He mentions spanish flu as the first example of what happened when we electrified the world, but all the viruses before that?
I think the principle is that these electricity changes constitute an immediate and substantial unnatural change in our environment. The casualty is that our bodies are no conditioned for this and that not all the humans in this case adapt as quickly and successfully as others. This results in cell toxicity. And the by product excretion of that is what we know of as a virus. Those who do not adapt successfully would be for example those who contract such viruses. That seems to be the theory.
Our environments are eco systems that function in a way as a whole. This is as true of our current times with the electricity variable as those without. I have read that before the black plague there was a demonization of cats. This may have lead to a rodent problem which might have contributed/resulted in the black plague. Whether it is true or not I do not know. But, the principle is the same. Unnatural abrupt changes in our environment are not good for health.
"A healthy volunteer in Seattle is the first person in the U.S. to receive a dose of an experimental coronavirus vaccine as part of a new clinical trial, government health officials announced today (March 16).
Over the next six weeks, researchers plan to enroll 45 participants in the trial, which will test the safety of the vaccine as well as its ability to induce an immune response in the volunteers. The trial will take place at Kaiser Permanente Washington Health Research Institute (KPWHRI) in Seattle.
The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) allowed the new vaccine to be fast-tracked into clinical trials without thorough testing in animal models, which usually stands as a strict prerequisite to human testing. While making the jump to human trials could bring the vaccine to market faster, this is only step one.
New drugs must pass through three iterative phases of clinical trials before being deemed safe and effective for widespread use. Assuming the initial tests go well, it may be 12 to 18 months before any vaccine is ready for public use, NIAID Director Dr. Anthony Fauci told the House Oversight and Reform Committee on March 12."
https://www.livescience.com/first-person-coronavirus-vaccine-clinical-trial.html
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 16, 2020, 07:23:48 PM
With entire countries being locked down, the UK is doing something quite different - leaving everything open.
https://youtu.be/nSXIetP5iak
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 16, 2020, 07:23:48 PM
With entire countries being locked down, the UK is doing something quite different - leaving everything open.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/uk-coronavirus-herd-immunity/2020/03/16/1c9d640e-66c7-11ea-b199-3a9799c54512_story.html
Nothing much has been made to close here. It's all voluntary. The government hopes people will refrain from going to restaurants, pubs, cinemas etc, but nothing is being enforced. The London Marathon has been postponed, but other marathons go on. It's up to the organisers to decide.
Meanwhile, it's all gone quiet partly due to the lack of flights. A couple passed over about an hour ago and that's been all for today. The streets are definitely emptier.
Is the UK the only country following the 'herd immunity' strategy?
I think Holland is too.
Quote from: diaduit on March 17, 2020, 02:09:13 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 16, 2020, 07:23:48 PM
With entire countries being locked down, the UK is doing something quite different - leaving everything open.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/uk-coronavirus-herd-immunity/2020/03/16/1c9d640e-66c7-11ea-b199-3a9799c54512_story.html
Nothing much has been made to close here. It's all voluntary. The government hopes people will refrain from going to restaurants, pubs, cinemas etc, but nothing is being enforced. The London Marathon has been postponed, but other marathons go on. It's up to the organisers to decide.
Meanwhile, it's all gone quiet partly due to the lack of flights. A couple passed over about an hour ago and that's been all for today. The streets are definitely emptier.
Is the UK the only country following the 'herd immunity' strategy?
I think Holland is too.
Sweden aswell. I just had an exam with 400 students together in a gymnasium
https://mobile.twitter.com/Avrpli_Turkler/status/1239563296681975812
Video filmed inside an Italian hospital. Judge credibility for yourself.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 17, 2020, 02:43:17 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Avrpli_Turkler/status/1239563296681975812
Video filmed inside an Italian hospital. Judge credibility for yourself.
What am I seeing here that you think needs an epidemic, viral or not, to be explained?
Quote from: Xavier on March 16, 2020, 10:46:32 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES7FuN5WkAUAAdI?format=jpg&name=small)
182,000 cases and over 7,000 deaths so far as of current time. It is around 4:45 GMT, March 17th.
The curves flatten because they test new people at decreasing rates. Not because of an imaginary viral epidemic being contained.
Quote from: MaximGun on March 17, 2020, 01:11:05 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 16, 2020, 07:23:48 PM
With entire countries being locked down, the UK is doing something quite different - leaving everything open.
https://youtu.be/nSXIetP5iak
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Quote from: Sempronius on March 17, 2020, 02:29:44 AM
Quote from: diaduit on March 17, 2020, 02:09:13 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 16, 2020, 07:23:48 PM
With entire countries being locked down, the UK is doing something quite different - leaving everything open.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/uk-coronavirus-herd-immunity/2020/03/16/1c9d640e-66c7-11ea-b199-3a9799c54512_story.html
Nothing much has been made to close here. It's all voluntary. The government hopes people will refrain from going to restaurants, pubs, cinemas etc, but nothing is being enforced. The London Marathon has been postponed, but other marathons go on. It's up to the organisers to decide.
Meanwhile, it's all gone quiet partly due to the lack of flights. A couple passed over about an hour ago and that's been all for today. The streets are definitely emptier.
Is the UK the only country following the 'herd immunity' strategy?
I think Holland is too.
Sweden aswell. I just had an exam with 400 students together in a gymnasium
So, the UK, Holland and Sweden are following a similar, minimal strategy. While Italy, Spain and to a lesser extent France are throwing everything they have against it.
Looks like a north\south divide. Could this be a temperamental/cultural divide? In other words, are the Italians just being Italian by overreacting just a little bit?
It would be nice to think that despite everything, Europe is still Europe, as evidenced by the enduring of stereotypes.
Oh no. I just saw this. Denmark has messed up my theory.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/denmark-passes-law-enabling-forced-coronavirus-vaccinations
The question of forced vaccinations has been on my mind and now is as good a time as any to ask. What will people here do if faced with compulsory vaccinations? Running to the hills is my only plan under such circumstances, although what 'running to the hills' actually means in practice, I haven't a clue.
What would be the Catholic response?
A couple of the comments to this story suggest it's fake and there are no reports of Denmark's move elsewhere.. (I hope so.) But the question still stands. And what if vaccination, if not compulsory, is required in order to do anything, like travel or access medical help?
I think the vaccine should be, and will be, entirely free as in not forced. Not necessarily free of cost, of course; that is another matter. People who want it can pay for it and purchase it before using it. That should take care of all the forced vaccination conspiracy theories. We're very far from there being any proposed vaccine at all, let alone a forced one. I just want to ask those who know there's a virus, but don't want a vaccine; what's your plan and endgame, exactly? Do nothing and just expect it all to disappear, even if millions die? Is that the plan? It seems to me a vaccine is necessary to end the contagion. It just has to be properly and independently tested in every way, with documented and verifiable results; ideally first in animals. But there's very little time and so it's no surprise researching are racing, and even skipping some regular research protocols, to find a cure.
https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-mum-becomes-first-person-to-get-experimental-coronavirus-vaccine-20200317
"US researchers have now administered the first shots of an experimental coronavirus vaccine, having begun the human trial yesterday (Monday 16 March).
The early-stage trial is being led by Dr Lisa Jackson, a senior investigator at Kaiser Permanente Washington Health Research Institute in Seattle, Washington, which has become the epicentre of the US outbreak, with 42 of the country's 69 deaths.
Mum-of-two Jennifer Haller, 43, was the first to receive the shot, admitting her two teenagers 'think it's cool' she's taking part in the study.
Haller said as she awaited her turn: "We all feel so helpless. This is an amazing opportunity for me to do something."
Study leader Jackson said: "Everyone wants to do what they can in this emergency."
She added: "We're team coronavirus now."
Study volunteers - healthy people aged between 18 and 55 - have been carefully selected for the trial, which will not only test the safety of the vaccine, but also its ability to induce an immune response in the volunteers.
Some people will be getting higher dosages than others to test how strong the inoculations might need to be.
Researchers will be drawing blood samples to see whether or not the vaccine is helping the immune system, and will also be looking out for any side effects.
"We don't know whether this vaccine will induce an immune response, or whether it will be safe. That´s why we´re doing a trial," Jackson said.
"It´s not at the stage where it would be possible or prudent to give it to the general population."
Dr Lisa Jackson. Credit: PA
Dr Lisa Jackson. Credit: PA
Over the course of the next six weeks, the team will enrol 45 participants for the trial.
Jackson continued: "This work is critical to national efforts to respond to the threat of this emerging virus.
"We are prepared to conduct this important trial because of our experience as an NIH clinical trials centre since 2007."
National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases allowed the new vaccine to be fast-tracked into clinical trials.
New drugs must pass through three phases of clinical trials to be deemed safe.
Director Anthony S. Fauci said in a statement: "Finding a safe and effective vaccine to prevent infection with SARS-CoV-2 is an urgent public health priority."
He added: "This Phase 1 study, launched in record speed, is an important first step toward achieving that goal."
It's okay to not panic. LADbible and UNILAD's aim with our campaign, Cutting Through, is to provide our community with facts and stories from the people who are either qualified to comment or have experienced first-hand the situation we're facing. For more information from the World Health Organisation on Coronavirus, click here."
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 17, 2020, 03:44:20 AM
Oh no. I just saw this. Denmark has messed up my theory.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/denmark-passes-law-enabling-forced-coronavirus-vaccinations
The question of forced vaccinations has been on my mind and now is as good a time as any to ask. What will people here do if faced with compulsory vaccinations? Running to the hills is my only plan under such circumstances, although what 'running to the hills' actually means in practice, I haven't a clue.
What would be the Catholic response?
I have thought about this too and today made a comment to a friend that vaccinations could well become compulsory for my workplace, which means I would be in a pickle.
My initial reaction is that I would have the vaccination. Not because I believe in them. I don't. I do not believe that a chemical dose of a disease is how one builds up immunity to disease. But if I don't work I don't eat or have anywhere to live. And it is not as if I would have the luxury of finding another job easily and that applies more so in today's economic climate when the unemployment rate is destined to jump incredibly as a result of this purported pandemic. As much as I am convinced by natural health, I don't much fancy dying for it.
Now, if the vaccination is accompanied by the mark of the beast, well, that is a different story entirely...
I am not claiming my reaction is
the catholic response and I am open to other views. If it is likely to become a reality, I would undoubtedly discuss it with a priest and other Catholics whom I regard as solid/sound, but until then they are my initial thoughts.
Quote from: Aeternitus on March 17, 2020, 04:11:59 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 17, 2020, 03:44:20 AM
Oh no. I just saw this. Denmark has messed up my theory.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/denmark-passes-law-enabling-forced-coronavirus-vaccinations
The question of forced vaccinations has been on my mind and now is as good a time as any to ask. What will people here do if faced with compulsory vaccinations? Running to the hills is my only plan under such circumstances, although what 'running to the hills' actually means in practice, I haven't a clue.
What would be the Catholic response?
I have thought about this too and today made a comment to a friend that vaccinations could well become compulsory for my workplace, which means I would be in a pickle.
My initial reaction is that I would have the vaccination. Not because I believe in them. I don't. I do not believe that a chemical dose of a disease is how one builds up immunity to disease. But if I don't work I don't eat or have anywhere to live. And it is not as if I would have the luxury of finding another job easily and that applies more so in today's economic climate when the unemployment rate is destined to jump incredibly as a result of this purported pandemic. As much as I am convinced by natural health, I don't much fancy dying for it.
Now, if the vaccination is accompanied by the mark of the beast, well, that is a different story entirely...
I am not claiming my reaction is the catholic response and I am open to other views. If it is likely to become a reality, I would undoubtedly discuss it with a priest and other Catholics whom I regard as solid/sound, but until then they are my initial thoughts.
We have every intention not to take the vaccination but will need God's grace to stand firm. There will be a pay off if you don't take it. I read some years ago they are able to manufacture rfids tiny enough to fit in a vaccine.!!!!
I do understand the legitimate suspicion about vaccines - it's mainly because there are some bad vaccines. It's like the "lemons" you learn about with used cars. If there are some bad used cars, and nobody has a way to discern which cars are good, people become suspicious of all used cars. Similarly, there are bad vaccines, and sometimes there's no way to be sure a vaccine is certifiable as having no harmful bad effect; but that doesn't mean the Science of Vaccination is in itself wrong, or that there are not solid and scientifically certain ways of certifying that a particular vaccine has been, (1) developed well, (2) properly tested, (3) has documented positive results (4) and has no harmful side effects whatsoever.
The science of vaccination originated with British Physician Edward Jenner in 1796. He was absolutely focused on trying to find a cure for smallpox, after seeing some people dear to him having died and suffered from it. Amazingly enough, the solution came from milkmaids, and from his observations. Those inoculated with cowpox had strangely become immune to smallpox. Dr. Jenner realized that something about the one, or the body's response to it, must somehow be preventive against the other. That was the basis of his smallpox vaccine.
"Edward Jenner, FRS FRCPE FLS[1] (17 May 1749 – 26 January 1823) was an English physician who was a contributor to development of the smallpox vaccine. The practice of vaccination was popularized by Jenner, and since then has been used ubiquitously to prevent several diseases.[2][3] The terms vaccine and vaccination are derived from Variolae vaccinae (smallpox of the cow), the term devised by Jenner to denote cowpox. He used it in 1798 in the long title of his Inquiry into the Variolae vaccinae known as the Cow Pox, in which he described the protective effect of cowpox against smallpox.[4]
Jenner is often called a pioneer of immunization. Using a method valid in immunology before the discovery of germ theory, his work saved many lives.[5][6][7] In Jenner's time, smallpox killed around 10% of the British population, with the number as high as 20% in towns and cities where infection spread more easily.[7] In 1821, he was appointed physician extraordinary to King George IV, and was also made mayor of Berkeley and justice of the peace. A member of the Royal Society, in the field of zoology he was the first person to describe the brood parasitism of the common cuckoo. In 2002, Jenner was named in the BBC's list of the 100 Greatest Britons ...
Legacy
In 1979, the World Health Organization declared smallpox an eradicated disease.[51] This was the result of coordinated public health efforts, but vaccination was an essential component. Although the disease was declared eradicated, some pus samples still remain in laboratories in Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta in the US, and in State Research Center of Virology and Biotechnology VECTOR in Koltsovo, Novosibirsk Oblast, Russia.[52]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Jenner
Since vaccines have thus been around for a long time, are there any Church decrees against it in principle? I don't think so. It's only we have to be careful about the harmful effects of bad vaccines imo.
Ok, now kreuz, you should release the hounds on vaccines ;)
Aren't some vaccines made of cells of aborted babies?
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 17, 2020, 02:43:17 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Avrpli_Turkler/status/1239563296681975812
Video filmed inside an Italian hospital. Judge credibility for yourself.
Every single one of them were obese..
Quote from: Sempronius on March 17, 2020, 05:13:50 AM
Aren't some vaccines made of cells of aborted babies?
Yes. >:(
Yes, that is of course absolutely heinous, Sempronious and Lynne. Here's a report: ""Schools of the U.S. District of the Society of St. Pius X comply with vaccination policies of local health and education authorities while adhering to moral principles of the Roman Catholic Church," the handbook said.
"The Catholic Church does not oppose vaccinations in principle, but it does consider as morally illicit the development of vaccines from aborted fetal tissues," the handbook continued" https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/03/vaticans-academy-for-life-encourages-parents-to-vaccinate-children/
It's quoting from here: "PRESS STATEMENT ON VACCINES
"News reports recently mentioned an outbreak of chickenpox at Our Lady of the Assumption Church and Academy. In order to clarify the events and the Catholic Church's principles regarding vaccinations, the Society of St. Pius X in America has released the following statement."
Statement on Vaccines
Our Lady of the Assumption Church and Academy in Walton, KY, is part of the Society of St. Pius X, a Catholic religious congregation, in America. All schools of the US District of the Society of Saint Pius X comply with vaccination policies of local health and education authorities while adhering to the moral principles of the Roman Catholic Church.
While the Catholic Church does not oppose vaccinations in principle, it does consider as morally illicit the development of vaccines from aborted fetal tissues." https://www.assumptionchurch.net/vaccine_statement.html
Iran seems to be suffering severely under the virus; more seriously than is reported.
"New York Times reporter Farnaz Fassihi reported at the same time: "Real infected numbers about 10,000 to 15,000, says head of health committee of Tehran city council." https://www.dailywire.com/news/w-h-o-doctor-paints-grim-picture-of-coronavirus-outbreak-in-iran
The tweet was dated Feb 28. Also, "The outbreak in Iran and in Qom has been so devastating that The Washington Post identified through high-quality satellite images that appear to show mass grave sites the size of football fields ... In a video analyzed by The Washington Post, a worker who was burying bodies said that they had already buried approximately 250 bodies.
Channel 4 News, a British news station, reported late last week that a doctor inside Iran said that his hospital was losing "20 or 30 patients a day."
"It's a disaster," the doctor allegedly said. "It's worse than the war."
The doctor apparently died a few days later."
Edit: in related news, "Iran has temporarily freed about 85,000 prisoners in an effort to combat the spread of coronavirus, a judiciary spokesman in the country has said.
Gholamhossein Esmaili added: "Some 50% of those released are security-related prisoners... also in the jails we have taken precautionary measures to confront the outbreak."
Political prisoners are among the inmates who have been released in the move." https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-iran-frees-85-000-prisoners-to-combat-spread-of-covid-19-11958783
Forced vaccination is quite an extreme measure.
What about a situation in which vaccination was voluntary but without it you would be restricted in what you could do, for example, work, travel, attend hospitals etc?
Quote from: MaximGun on March 17, 2020, 01:11:05 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 16, 2020, 07:23:48 PM
With entire countries being locked down, the UK is doing something quite different - leaving everything open.
https://youtu.be/nSXIetP5iak
The UK government is heroically resisting the NWO virus conspiracy!
The vaccines are usually made by the same players who bring us the good news about a possible outbreaks like Event 201 for example. Do you trust these people? it takes at least 2 years to create and test a vaccine. All of the sudden the everybody claims to have it already. What nonsense.
And the muppets still think this is real and not one of the biggest psyops ever pulled. Ha ha! MORONS! You're all MORONS. And you DESERVE whatever is coming to you.
Denmark rushes through emergency coronavirus law
Denmark's parliament on Thursday night unanimously passed an emergency coronavirus law which gives health authorities powers to force testing, treatment and quarantine with the backing of the police.
https://www.thelocal.dk/20200313/denmark-passes-far-reaching-emergency-coronavirus-law (https://www.thelocal.dk/20200313/denmark-passes-far-reaching-emergency-coronavirus-law)
Denmark Passes Law Enabling Forced Coronavirus Vaccinations
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/denmark-passes-law-enabling-forced-coronavirus-vaccinations?fbclid=IwAR3R4Kf1lYdwS2ife_8Qt2XI5IIEER8GoH4zVt_0HyxdhaESMCHpMjeh7Ck (https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/denmark-passes-law-enabling-forced-coronavirus-vaccinations?fbclid=IwAR3R4Kf1lYdwS2ife_8Qt2XI5IIEER8GoH4zVt_0HyxdhaESMCHpMjeh7Ck)
(https://seanmcdowell.org/assets/meta_img/NPC-crowd-1.jpg)
here's the voice of reason. Thank God this country is known for people like Ron Paul. Stop believing the lies and fear mongering
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/03/ron-paul/the-coronavirus-hoax/
yet another timely article everybody should read. One good this is that the cat is out of the bag already and most of the internet world know about the fact that 5G is deathly. Even main stream media have to daily "debunk" this well establish fact and call it fake news instead.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/03/jon-rappoport/5g-and-the-china-epidemic/
Quote5G and the China Epidemic
By Jon Rappoport
March 2, 2020
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When a momentous event occurs, people weigh in. One person says, 'X is the cause.' Another says, 'No, Y is the cause.' Is it possible that X and Y are both causing the event? Of course. But people have a tendency to aim for one and only one explanation. This is a psychological factor that has nothing to do with the truth. If a person is starving and also going without water, is there only one reason for his illness? Both causes together are creating a dire situation. In the current "epidemic," the combination of deadly air pollution in Chinese cities, and the rollout of 5G technology, could both be operating with horrific effect.
Here is a typical standard definition of 5G, from the industry: "5G is the 5th generation mobile network. It will take a much larger role than previous generations. 5G will elevate the mobile network to not only interconnect people, but also interconnect and control machines, objects, and devices. It will deliver new levels of performance and efficiency that will empower new user experiences and connect new industries." (Qualcom.com)
Several petitions have circulated, with the aim of stopping 5G deployment altogether. From principia-scientific.org, here is an excerpt from one petition, which is claimed to have 26,000 scientists as signatories:
"We the undersigned scientists, doctors, environmental organizations and citizens from (__) countries, urgently call for a halt to the deployment of the 5G (fifth generation) wireless network, including 5G from space satellites. 5G will massively increase exposure to radio frequency (RF) radiation on top of the 2G, 3G and 4G networks for telecommunications already in place. RF radiation has been proven harmful for humans and the environment. The deployment of 5G constitutes an experiment on humanity and the environment that is defined as a crime under international law."
"Telecommunications companies worldwide, with the support of governments, are poised within the next two years to roll out the fifth-generation wireless network (5G). This is set to deliver what is acknowledged to be unprecedented societal change on a global scale. We will have 'smart' homes, 'smart' businesses, 'smart' highways, 'smart' cities and self-driving cars. Virtually everything we own and buy, from refrigerators and washing machines to milk cartons, hairbrushes and infants' diapers, will contain antennas and microchips and will be connected wirelessly to the Internet. Every person on Earth will have instant access to super-high-speed, low- latency wireless communications from any point on the planet, even in rainforests, mid-ocean and the Antarctic."
"What is not widely acknowledged is that this will also result in unprecedented environmental change on a global scale. The planned density of radio frequency transmitters is impossible to envisage. In addition to millions of new 5G base stations on Earth and 20,000 new satellites in space, 200 billion transmitting objects, according to estimates, will be part of the Internet of Things by 2020, and one trillion objects a few years later. Commercial 5G at lower frequencies and slower speeds was deployed in Qatar, Finland and Estonia in mid-2018. The rollout of 5G at extremely high (millimetre wave) frequencies is planned to begin at the end of 2018."
"Despite widespread denial, the evidence that radio frequency (RF) radiation is harmful to life is already overwhelming. The accumulated clinical evidence of sick and injured human beings, experimental evidence of damage to DNA, cells and organ systems in a wide variety of plants and animals, and epidemiological evidence that the major diseases of modern civilization—cancer, heart disease and diabetes—are in large part caused by electromagnetic pollution, forms a literature base of well over 10,000 peer-reviewed studies."
"If the telecommunications industry's plans for 5G come to fruition, no person, no animal, no bird, no insect and no plant on Earth will be able to avoid exposure, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, to levels of RF radiation that are tens to hundreds of times greater than what exists today, without any possibility of escape anywhere on the planet. These 5G plans threaten to provoke serious, irreversible effects on humans and permanent damage to all of the Earth's ecosystems."
Because 5G signal transmissions can only move, with useful accuracy, across very short distances, you see the reference, in the petition, to millions of base relay stations that will be built around the world. I would say MANY millions, if not billions. They will be positioned on light poles, on buildings, on fences, on all sorts of structures. Coming soon to your neighborhood; perhaps to the sidewalk right outside your house or apartment building.
And eventually, when tiny nanomachines (sensors) are installed in the body to report, in real time, on physical changes, and diagnose diseases, you'll have your very own internal 5G transmitter. Will wonders never cease?
A number of independent researchers have attributed the so-called "epidemic" effects in China to the rollout of harmful 5G technology.
I have written and published several backgrounders on 5G, and I'm printing excerpts at end of this piece.
The first issue is: how much 5G is currently up and running in major Chinese cities? And an allied question: how much of China's 5G is operating at the 60HGz frequency band—which appears to be the most harmful to health?
Here is a statement from lightreading.com, dated February 24 of this year. It combines prediction with report: "China Unicom and its rollout partner China Telecom agreed at a special conference last Thursday to speed up their 5G buildout."
"The two telcos, which last year struck an agreement to jointly build and share their 5G networks, committed to deploying 250,000 base stations by the end of the third quarter – one quarter ahead of schedule..."
"In the first half of 2020 they expect to roll out 100,000 base stations in 47 cities, China Security Times reported."
"As of February 20, the two operators had put into service 64,000 5G base stations nationwide."
What is a base station? The term seems to apply to both small and large relay installations for passing along 5G transmissions. A small station might be the size of a shoe box attached to a light pole. It might be much, much larger, a hub containing many antennae.
For the moment, let's assume the base stations referred to in the above article are a combination of large and small installations. Both types would be necessary to launch an extensive 5G network.
64,000 5G base stations currently up and running in all of China might not seem like a very big number. But it could be a big number, if only a limited number of cities are hosting these stations. And perhaps other telecom companies are very active, and perhaps they have installed more stations.
How much 5G is currently deployed in Wuhan, which is said to be the initial Chinese center for 5G deployment? Wuhan, of course, has been called "the epicenter of the coronavirus epidemic." If 2018 and 2019 5G predictions are close to accurate, the answer would be: a lot.
Any significant deployment of 5G in Chinese cities can create human damage. And of course, in order to hide this damage, the cover story of THE VIRUS would be invoked. "Don't blame our corporate 5G, or try to derail the hundreds of billions of dollars immediately coming our way. It's the coronavirus. Salute the virus."
One VERY serious claim: when 5G employs a frequency band at 60GHz, disruption in oxygen molecules occurs—and the crucial ability of hemoglobin to pick up oxygen and transport it throughout the body is seriously impaired. I've consulted with a trusted source. So far, as I continue to look for more evidence, I believe this assessment is too convincing to dismiss. The lack of open debate among professionals is a sign that the vital issue is being pushed into the background.
All in all, given the available literature on 5G, in the face of stonewalling and the refusal of telecom industry professionals to step forward with honest reports, common sense tells us to look to Wuhan and other major Chinese cities, and their rollout of 5G, for understanding the human damage there, which is being falsely labeled: "THE VIRUS IS CAUSING IT."
Globally, the ramifications of 5G are immense. Here are excerpts from earlier articles I wrote on the subject:
A few decades ago, a movement was started to create an interconnected power grid for the whole planet. We were told this would be the only way to avoid wasting huge amounts of electricity and, voila, bring all nations and all people into a modern 21st century.
But now, it's a different story, a classic bait and switch. The bait was the promise of One Grid for all. The switch is what 5G will bring us:
100 billion or more NEW devices online, all connected to the Internet and the Cloud. What could be more wasteful? What could be more ridiculous? This is the opposite of sane energy use.
Who really cares whether his 5G-connected refrigerator keeps track of the food items inside it and orders new items when the supply dwindles? Who has to have a 5G driverless car that takes him to work? Who must have a 5G stove that senses what is being cooked and sets the temperature for four minutes? Who lives and who dies if a washing machine doesn't measure how much soap is stored inside and doesn't order new soap? Who is demanding a hundred devices in his home that spy on him and record his actions? Who needs to load a movie in two seconds?
With 5G, the ultimate goal is: every device in every home that uses energy will be "its own computer," and the planetary grid will connect ALL these devices to a monitoring and regulating Energy Authority.
As Patrick Wood details in his classic, Technocracy Rising, that worldwide Energy Authority was the dream of the men who launched the Technocracy movement, in America, in the 1930s.
They set out the key requirements—which weren't technically possible then, but are quite doable now: continuous real-time measuring of both energy production and energy use from one end of the planet to the other...
...So that both energy production and energy consumption could be controlled. "For the good of all," of course.
5G is a technology for making this happen.
Globalists: "We're promising a stunning long-range future of 'automatic homes', where everything is done for you. But really, that's the cover story. Ultimately, we want to be able to measure every unit of energy used by every device in every home—and through AI, regulate how much energy we will let every individual consume, moment to moment. We control energy. We are the energy masters. If you want to run and operate and dominate the world, you control its energy."
Terms and projects like smart grid, smart meters, sustainability, Agenda 21, smart cities, climate change—all this is Technocratic planning and justification for Rule through Energy.
The beginning of an actual rational plan for energy would start this way: DUMP 5G. Dump the whole plan of installing small transmitter-cells on buildings and homes and trees and lampposts and fences all over the planet. Forget it. Don't bring 100 billion new devices online. Aside from the extreme health dangers, it's ridiculously expensive. It's on the order of saying we need hundred-foot robots standing on sidewalks washing the windows of office buildings.
If some movie star wants to install 30 generators on his property and have engineers build him an automatic home, where he can sit back, flip a switch, and have three androids carry him into his bathtub and wash him and dry him, fine. But planning a smart city completely interconnected by 5G to the Internet of Things? Who gave informed consent to that? Nobody.
A global Energy Authority, of course, is going to decide that a small African country needs to be given much more energy, while Germany or France or the US will have to sacrifice energy for the cause of social justice. But this is yet another con, because you won't see governments cleaning up the contaminated water supplies of that small African country, or installing modern sanitation, or curtailing the forced movement of populations into poverty-stricken cities, or reclaiming vast farm land stolen by mega-corporations and giving that land back to local farmers.
The whole hidden purpose of an Energy Authority is control.
And because the Authority is Globalist and Technocratic, it aims to lower energy use in industrial nations and help wreck their economies, making it much easier to move in and take over those countries.
Who in his right mind would propose a wireless system that relies on many, many, many cells/transmitters placed closely to each other, all over the world? This system would be far more vulnerable to physical disruption than the present 4G.
You can find many articles that claim the US military must have 5G for their most advanced planes—and for their developing AI-controlled weapons. How does that work? Where will all the transmitter/cells be placed on the ground and in the air?? Something is missing here. Is there another version of 5G we're not being told about? Is geoengineering of the atmosphere the means for tuning up space so 5G signals can be passed along without cells/transmitters?
Part of the US obsession to bring 5G online quickly stems from competition with China, which at the moment is in the lead on developing and exporting the technology. "If China has it, we have to have it sooner and better." This attitude sidesteps the issue of why we must have 5G in the first place.
"Along with the 5G there is another thing coming – Internet of Things. If you look at it...the radiation level is going to increase tremendously and yet the industry is very excited about it.... they project 5G/IoT business to be a $7 trillion business." — Prof. Girish Kumar, Professor at Electrical Engineering Department at IIT Bombay
And the consumer gets what? The ability to watch the reruns of Law&Order he's already watching? His current TV reception isn't good enough? The appliances in his home will all be connected to Internet and talk to each other and spy on him and record his energy use, in conjunction with smart meters, for the Greater Good.
Somehow, you really need your toaster connected to the Internet? You want that? You can't get along without that?
UNDOUBTEDLY, A KEY PART OF THE 5G PROGRAM IS, EVENTUALLY, MASSIVE NUMBERS OF DRIVERLESS CARS ON ROADS ALL OVER THE WORLD. This is the plan. Cars are connected and talk to each other. Humans play no role in this. The Technocratic Internet of Things decides how, at any given moment, to regulate traffic flows. Humans learn to be passive.
AND WITH THE INTERNET OF THINGS, THE TECHNOCRATIC ELITE WILL BE ABLE TO INSTALL ENERGY-USE QUOTAS AND CEILINGS FOR EVERY PERSON AND EXERT TOP-DOWN CONTROL ON THE PLANET.
"Mr. Jones, this is the voice of your house speaking. You have reached the assigned limit of your energy use for the month. Try to get along without energy until next month's allotment comes online..."
At electricsense.com (5/12/17), the fatuous "upside" of 5G is exposed: "5G and IoT [Internet of Things] promises to connect us in our homes, schools, workplaces, cities, parks and open spaces to over a trillion objects around the world. It promises cars that drive themselves, washing machines that order their own washing powder and softener plus of course super fast downloads and streaming."
"According to Fortune.com 5G will support at least 100 billion devices and will be 10 to 100 times faster than current 4G technology. (4G was already about 10 times faster than 3G)."
"It'll bring download speed up to 10 Gigabits per second. This would let us have an entire building of people send each other data in close to no time, thus improving productivity."
electricsense.com: "5G will utilize smaller cell stations (and the technology of beamforming) that'll scramble/unscramble and redirect packets of data on a no-interference path back to us. This could mean wireless antennas on every lamp post, utility pole, home and business throughout entire neighborhoods, towns and cities."
"Thousands of studies link low-level wireless radio frequency radiation exposures to a long list of adverse biological effects, including:
* DNA single and double strand breaks
* oxidative damage
* disruption of cell metabolism
* increased blood brain barrier permeability
* melatonin reduction
* disruption to brain glucose metabolism
* generation of stress proteins"
"Given that 5G is set to utilize frequencies above and below existing frequency bands...But the tendency (it varies from country to country) is for 5G to utilize the higher frequency bands. Which brings its own particular concerns..."
"The biggest concern is how these new wavelengths will affect the skin. The human body has between two million to four million sweat ducts. Dr. Ben-Ishai of Hebrew University, Israel explains that our sweat ducts act like 'an array of helical antennas when exposed to these wavelengths,' meaning that we become more conductive. A recent New York study which experimented with 60GHz waves stated that 'the analyses of penetration depth show that more than 90% of the transmitted power is absorbed in the epidermis and dermis layer'."
"The effects of MMWs [millimeter waves] as studied by Dr. Yael Stein of Hebrew University is said to also cause humans physical pain as our nociceptors flare up in recognition of the wave as a damaging stimuli. So we're looking at possibilities of many skin diseases and cancer as well as physical pain to our skin."
"A 1994 study found that low level millimeter microwave radiation produced lens opacity in rats, which is linked to the production of cataracts."
"An experiment conducted by the Medical Research Institute of Kanazawa Medical University found that 60GHz 'millimeter-wave antennas can cause thermal injuries of varying types of levels. The thermal effects induced by millimeter waves can apparently penetrate below the surface of the eye'."
"A 1992 Russian study found that frequencies in the range 53-78GHz (that which 5G proposes to use) impacted the heart rate variability (an indicator of stress) in rats. Another Russian study on frogs whose skin was exposed to MMWs found heart rate changes (arrhythmias)."
"5G will use pulsed millimeter waves to carry information. But as Dr. Joel Moskowitz points out, most 5G studies are misleading because they do not pulse the waves. This is important because research on microwaves already tells us how pulsed waves have more profound biological effects on our body compared to non-pulsed waves. Previous studies, for instance, show how pulse rates of the frequencies led to gene toxicity and DNA strand breaks."
This is just a sampling of 5G's disastrous effects. There is much more.
It's full steam ahead for 5G on planet Earth.
Profits, top-down control, new technology—why bother with extensive health studies?
Once the effects on the population take hold, doctors will make diagnoses of DISEASES that seem to have nothing to do with 5G. They'll call it Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, or a variety of blood disorders, they'll look for THE VIRUS, and they'll develop new drugs...the one cause they won't find is 5G.
What do you know? I wrote that last item about THE VIRUS on March 26, 2018, long before the current "China epidemic" emerged.
Martin, ""The regulatory is introducing the rules ... we hope we could implement a first version of the 5G network in Iran next year and start offering services," said Jahromi." http://french.presstv.com/Detail/2020/02/13/618603/Iran-5G-internet-network-minister-announcement Iran is only going to implement its first 5G network next year, that is, in 2021. So how do you explain what has already taken place in that country this year? We're talking over 16,000 known cases in a country without its first 5G network.
Your theory has to address this if it is to be proven true. Ron Paul said, "A virus that has thus far killed just over 5,000 worldwide and less than 100 in the United States" Well, it's at 188,000 worldwide, and 7500 deaths now, and rapidly accelerating. Nothing to sneeze about.
On one hand we have this:
QuoteMORONS! You're all MORONS. And you DESERVE whatever is coming to you.
And on the other hand we have this:
QuoteFather, forgive them, for they know not what they do
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 17, 2020, 08:05:56 AM
On one hand we have this:
QuoteMORONS! You're all MORONS. And you DESERVE whatever is coming to you.
And on the other hand we have this:
QuoteFather, forgive them, for they know not what they do
Yet God destroyed Jerusalem and will send the Christ killers to the lake of fire. Forgiveness has nothing to do with the fact of you being morons and deserving what's coming.
Quote from: Xavier on March 17, 2020, 08:05:17 AM
Your theory has to address this if it is to be proven true. Ron Paul said, "A virus that has thus far killed just over 5,000 worldwide and less than 100 in the United States" Well, it's at 188,000 worldwide, and 7500 deaths now, and rapidly accelerating. Nothing to sneeze about.
You have no evidentiary basis for this claim. No tests exist which can demonstrate it. But even if true, it's minuscule and you're making mountains of molehills.
And then we have this:
QuoteBut I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 17, 2020, 08:17:34 AM
And then we have this:
QuoteBut I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Luke 11:40: "You fools!"
Romans 2:20: "...an instructor of the foolish..."
1 Corinthians 15:36: "You foolish person!"
1 Peter 2:15: "...put to silence the ignorance of foolish people."
Luke 24:25: "O foolish ones..."
Romans 1:14: "I am under obligation...to the wise and to the foolish"
Galatians 3:1: "O foolish Galatians!..."
Galatians 3:3: "Are you so foolish?..."
None of which changes the fact that you are morons and deserve what is coming. You're not going to guilt trip me out of reality and speaking truth with your quotations.
Now sod off.
Calm down kreuzers take a chill pill.....or an orange 😁
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 17, 2020, 06:11:19 AM
Forced vaccination is quite an extreme measure.
What about a situation in which vaccination was voluntary but without it you would be restricted in what you could do, for example, work, travel, attend hospitals etc?
It starts like that. Then it gets more restricted, and so on until eventually you cave.
Maybe like this
So your two years in to your refusal. You're doing fine until your boss says you can't work in your office as you don't have the vaccination so he gives you a room to yourself to isolate you from the others. So you feel like a social outcast. It's ok, you have the support of your family. Still its unpleasant.
Then you can't use public transport to go to work so now you have to cycle to work or hope someone will car pool with you without fear of you spreading the disease.
You can't buy your groceries until a certain hour or online only as you could contaminate the population.
Your losing friends, family. All eats away at your resolve and you refuse the constant communication from the dept of health, you pass by the free on the spot vaccines in shopping centers etc.
Until one day, your child breaks their arm and you rush to the ER to be told you cannot get them treated as you've no vaccine.......any parent including myself are likely to give in there and then.
Quote from: Xavier on March 17, 2020, 08:05:17 AM
Martin, ""The regulatory is introducing the rules ... we hope we could implement a first version of the 5G network in Iran next year and start offering services," said Jahromi." http://french.presstv.com/Detail/2020/02/13/618603/Iran-5G-internet-network-minister-announcement Iran is only going to implement its first 5G network next year, that is, in 2021. So how do you explain what has already taken place in that country this year? We're talking over 16,000 known cases in a country without its first 5G network.
Your theory has to address this if it is to be proven true. Ron Paul said, "A virus that has thus far killed just over 5,000 worldwide and less than 100 in the United States" Well, it's at 188,000 worldwide, and 7500 deaths now, and rapidly accelerating. Nothing to sneeze about.
Xavier, I didn't say there is no virus or a bioweapon used. We are dealing with a lab created bio weapon most likely. I wouldn't be surprised that Israel is behind the Iranian outbreak. This cannot be proven by anyone here but you don;t have to be a wiz to know that ziopaths want to wipe Iran off the map. Iran still has its own banking system and is againt Israel. 5G is deathly in spite of it all.
"WHO urges governments to do more as virus infects more than 179,000 people and has killed at least 7,176 worldwide.
Italy reported 345 new coronavirus deaths in the country over the last 24 hours taking its total death toll to 2,503 - an increase of 16 percent.
The total number of cases in Italy rose to 31,506 from a previous 27,980, up 12.6 percent - the slowest rate of increase since the contagion came to light on February 21. Italy is the European country hardest hit by coronavirus." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/urges-world-test-test-test-covid-19-live-updates-200316234425373.html What is Italy to do precisely, to the naysayers, when its hospitals are over-crowded?
Quote from: MartinXavier, I didn't say there is no virus or a bioweapon used.
Ok, so if you believe there is a lab created bioweapon, why are you against very basic preventive measures like a limited 14 day quarantine. It is the best we can do for now, to slow down the spread of the virus. Did you read the data on week 3 to week 4 increase when no precaution is taken?
"According to an Iranian health official, there were 135 new deaths due to the coronavirus, raising the total death toll to 988 ...
14:20 GMT - Iran warns virus could kill 'millions' in Islamic Republic
Iran issued its most dire warning yet about the coronavirus ravaging the country, suggesting "millions" could die in the Islamic Republic fails to take the necessary precautions.
A state television journalist, who also is a medical doctor, gave the warning hours after hardline Shia-Muslim faithful pushed their way into the courtyards of two major shrines that had just been closed over fears of the virus." Iran has no 5G. All these are from the virus.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 17, 2020, 09:13:41 AM
We are dealing with a lab created bio weapon most likely.
We don't know what is most likely. It is at least as likely that it is animal to human transmission, given the illegal market in China where this apparently began. (Yes, it was near a bio lab.)
Ebola virus occurred from animal to human transmission, for example. I believe that SARS involved some of the same, but I haven't checked on that one.
In any case, dwelling on conspiracy theories or political shenanigans will not advance either our practical attempts to stay safe and keep others safe, or advance our Catholic spirituality. My priest believes this pandemic is an opportunity and probably a mandate for spiritual purification. I think that physical illness is a metaphor for the much deeper and universal spiritual illness that is staring us in the face. And by spiritual illness in this case I mean the worship of material things and material comfort (Avarice, Gluttony, and Sloth -- sloth in the sense of comfort -- the three capital sins being forcefully curtailed at present).
Please stop fighting with each over whether there is actually a global health crisis. A person would have to be delusional to believe that the statistics are simply manufactured, and manufactured in concert with every government in the world. Come on. Morgues in some locations, including Italy, are piling up bodies. Photos, etc. If anything, there's something of a lag time in reporting. In addition, governments do not consider it good news to have to report cases and fatalities.
"When the Italian media began reporting on the increased community spread of the novel coronavirus across the country, Olmo Parenti, like many Italian citizens, didn't take the threat of the pandemic too seriously. "My friends and I were almost mocking the few people who believed the issue was serious from the get-go," Parenti, a young filmmaker, told me.
Just days later, Parenti felt like he was living in a different version of reality—a dystopian one. The number of positive cases had spiked dramatically. The entire country had shut down. The economy took a nosedive. Hospitals, overwhelmed with COVID-19 patients, were being forced to make impossible utilitarian decisions: Which critical patients would receive lifesaving artificial ventilation, while the others would effectively be left to die?
Parenti and his friends were disturbed by the fact that they had severely underestimated the situation, a perspective that perhaps contributed to the spread of the virus. "We read in the news that the U.S., England, Germany, and France were all taking the COVID-19 progression just as lightly as we had," Parenti said. "We decided we had to redeem ourselves in some way."
Together with other members of his filmmaking collective, Parenti put out a call for citizens across the country to film themselves in quarantine. "We asked them to talk in first person to the camera," he said, "and give themselves advice based on their own past behavior."
The resulting film, 10 Days, features messages from dozens of terrified Italians. The videos play as if warnings from the future. Like Parenti, many of the people who submitted quarantine videos chide themselves for not having taken precautionary measures, such as self-isolation and social distancing, as early as they could have."
https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/608113/italy-coronavirus/
Miriam M, I understand you. but don;t you think it smells rather fishy? Do you think Event 201 was just a coincident?
Quote from: Xavier on March 17, 2020, 12:05:17 PM
"WHO urges governments to do more as virus infects more than 179,000 people and has killed at least 7,176 worldwide.
Italy reported 345 new coronavirus deaths in the country over the last 24 hours taking its total death toll to 2,503 - an increase of 16 percent.
The total number of cases in Italy rose to 31,506 from a previous 27,980, up 12.6 percent - the slowest rate of increase since the contagion came to light on February 21. Italy is the European country hardest hit by coronavirus." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/urges-world-test-test-test-covid-19-live-updates-200316234425373.html What is Italy to do precisely, to the naysayers, when its hospitals are over-crowded?
Quote from: MartinXavier, I didn't say there is no virus or a bioweapon used.
Ok, so if you believe there is a lab created bioweapon, why are you against very basic preventive measures like a limited 14 day quarantine. It is the best we can do for now, to slow down the spread of the virus. Did you read the data on week 3 to week 4 increase when no precaution is taken?
"According to an Iranian health official, there were 135 new deaths due to the coronavirus, raising the total death toll to 988 ...
14:20 GMT - Iran warns virus could kill 'millions' in Islamic Republic
Iran issued its most dire warning yet about the coronavirus ravaging the country, suggesting "millions" could die in the Islamic Republic fails to take the necessary precautions.
A state television journalist, who also is a medical doctor, gave the warning hours after hardline Shia-Muslim faithful pushed their way into the courtyards of two major shrines that had just been closed over fears of the virus." Iran has no 5G. All these are from the virus.
I was not against preventative measures Xavier. You must have mistaken me with someone else. I also didn't say 5G is the only culprit. Plus Iran has 5G network already. They are supposed to lunch at teh end of March. Every country tests the equipment before the lunch so it might as well be already running just the service is not available for the customers yet. Just like in New York. 5G was tested and operational for a while before it became available to customers. All of this is definitely having an effect on pedestrians in NYC and everywhere else in the world. I know you have read the articles I posted and linked studies thereof. I am not here to prove my point but to warn everybody of what awaits us in the near future if 5G is not stopped.
One more thing for those who still think coronavirus is a normal occurance: read this draconian document from 2010 by the Rockeffeler foundation, starting page 18.
http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Rockefeller%20Foundation.pdf
This should calm everybody down. Just shows you how every single death and even pollen allergy will be marked as coronavirus case.
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/17/corona-bologna-the-truth-begins-to-leak-out/
QuoteCorona Bologna Italy: The Truth begins to leak out
Mar
17
by Jon Rappoport
by Jon Rappoport
March 17, 2020
(To join our email list, click here.)
The government of Italy, as everyone knows, has locked down the whole country of 60 million people. So how many Italians have died from COV? Even by the standards of the useless and misleading diagnostic tests?
Ready?
As far as the Italian Higher Institute of Health knows, at this point:
Maybe two.
Maybe.
Try to wrap your mind around that.
Good luck.
Seems the president of the Italian Higher Institute has some smarts. He understands that people who already have other serious health conditions, which have nothing to do with COV, can and do die from those other conditions, regardless of the fact that they've tested positive (on useless tests) for COV. He gets it. I predict a great future for him. If he keeps shooting his mouth off, he might find himself working as a weed puller in a forest. Or he might suddenly be diagnosed with the virus and find himself in isolation.
Grit your teeth and plow through this piece from Rome, 13 March 2020, Agenzia Nova: "Coronavirus: ISS [Italian National Institute of Health]: in Italy there are only two deaths ascertained so far due to Covid-19" (Italian, English)
"There may be only two people who died from coronavirus in Italy, who did not present other pathologies. This is what emerges from the medical records examined so far by the Higher Institute of Health, according to what was reported by the President of the Institute [Istituto Superiore di Sanità (ISS), Italian National Institute of Health], Silvio Brusaferro, during the press conference held today at the Civil Protection in Rome. 'Positive deceased patients have an average of over 80 years – 80.3 to be exact...The majority of these people are carriers of chronic diseases. Only two people were not presently carriers of [other non-COV] diseases', but even in these two cases, the examination of the files is not concluded and therefore, causes of death different from Covid-19 could emerge. The president of the ISS has specified that 'little more than a hundred medical records' have so far come from hospitals throughout Italy."
"...At present, in fact, the authorities are unable to distinguish those who died from the virus, from those who, on the other hand, are communicated daily to the public, but who were mostly carriers of other serious diseases and who, therefore, would not have died from Covid-19. In response to a question from 'Agenzia Nova', in fact, Brusaferro was unable to indicate the exact number of coronavirus deaths. However, the professor clarified that, according to the data analyzed, the vast majority of the victims 'had serious [non-COV] pathologies and in some cases the onset of an infection of the respiratory tract can lead more easily to death.' To clarify this point, and provide real data, 'as we acquire the folders we will go further. However, the populations most at risk are fragile, carriers of multiple diseases'."
Translation into non-medical language: the people dying in Italy have other very serious traditional diseases that have nothing to do with COV, and it's obvious they could have died, and probably did die, from those other diseases. Nevertheless, we're locking down the whole country.
So, for those people straining to find a reason for the "devastation" overtaking Italy—it's karma for ancient Rome trying to conquer half the known world; it's the ghost of Martin Luther obtaining revenge against the Vatican; it's a bioweapon with the power to cut down millions of people overnight; it's a virus that came in with a small meteor and crashed outside Milan; it's Chinese revenge against Marco Polo for stealing the concept of noodles—
Take a break, relax, have a plate of pasta, turn on the TV, and because all the stadiums are empty, watch a rerun of a soccer match from 1979.
PS: For those people who believe this head of the Italian Institute is lying with his facts and figures, stop and think it through. He's going to announce such devastating news that essentially contradicts everything the Italian government is doing with its lockdowns and quarantines of the whole country? It would be as if the director of the Centers for Disease Control announced, "There are a total of nine deaths in the US we think might have been caused by COV, and even there we're not sure, because you see, these nine were elderly people who could barely get out of bed long before COV emerged. These nine had extremely serious lung disease NOT CAUSED, I repeat, NOT CAUSED by COV...but anyway, don't go outside, work from home, don't touch another human being, watch our website for bargain deals on toilet paper, and oh yes, don't forget to get your regular flu shot if you can slip into a hazmat suit and drive at breakneck speed to your nearest pharmacy, where injection clerks are waiting..."
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update 38 with pulmonologist Roger Seheult, MD of https://www.MedCram.com
As global coronavirus cases surge, many hospitals cannot keep up with the demand. Personnel, equipment, and supplies are in short supply. Dr. Seheult discusses the latest COVID-19 trends, as well as measures hospitals and patients, can consider.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoisrCTu0SY[/yt]
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 17, 2020, 12:08:48 PMEbola virus occurred from animal to human transmission, for example. I believe that SARS involved some of the same, but I haven't checked on that one.
I'd bet my bottom dollar "ebola" is caused by some kind of chemical poison. That's why it's always extremely localised and has never spread. The thing is apparently so contagious, going by what happens locally, yet it fails time and again to move. It makes no sense (yeah, yeah, it kills everyone and so quickly, so it can't spread through long-term asymptomatic carriers, blah blah) . Of course it does make sense if it's some kind of extremely deadly toxin. It's the kind of pattern one would expect; highly lethal and localised, and transmittable through skin or bodily fluid contact, but otherwise a dud.
(https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/images/outbreak-distribution-map-medium.jpg)
QuoteA person would have to be delusional to believe that the statistics are simply manufactured, and manufactured in concert with every government in the world. Come on.
Excuse me? The statistics are absolutely manufactured, because the diagnostic tests used to establish them cannot establish what they are claimed to. martin just showed you with an article from the BMJ that out of 100 cases of death in Italy attributed to "coronavirus", just 2 ""victims" had not been determined to not have had other serious illnesses. This manufacture doesn't require a global governmental conspiracy.
QuoteMorgues in some locations, including Italy, are piling up bodies.
No they aren't. Do you know how many people die in Italy every day under normal circumstances? 1700-1800. And you think an extra few thousand over several weeks, that's assuming they are even extra, is going to cause bodies to "pile up" in morgues? That's delusional thinking. When the death toll is 200,000 over a month, then you can consider morgues overflowing and mass graves being dug.
QuoteAs global coronavirus cases surge, many hospitals cannot keep up with the demand. Personnel, equipment, and supplies are in short supply. Dr. Seheult discusses the latest COVID-19 trends, as well as measures hospitals and patients, can consider.
Correction: as everyone with so much as a cold runs to the hospital out of fear created by government and media, along with
useless diagnostic tests, hospitals cannot keep up with demand.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 17, 2020, 02:11:41 PM
This should calm everybody down. Just shows you how every single death and even pollen allergy will be marked as coronavirus case.
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/17/corona-bologna-the-truth-begins-to-leak-out/
QuoteCorona Bologna Italy: The Truth begins to leak out
Mar
17
by Jon Rappoport
...... Grit your teeth and plow through this piece from Rome, 13 March 2020, Agenzia Nova: "Coronavirus: ISS [Italian National Institute of Health]: in Italy there are only two deaths ascertained so far due to Covid-19" (Italian, English)
"There may be only two people who died from coronavirus in Italy, who did not present other pathologies. This is what emerges from the medical records examined so far by the Higher Institute of Health, according to what was reported by the President of the Institute [Istituto Superiore di Sanità (ISS), Italian National Institute of Health], Silvio Brusaferro, during the press conference held today at the Civil Protection in Rome. 'Positive deceased patients have an average of over 80 years – 80.3 to be exact...The majority of these people are carriers of chronic diseases. Only two people were not presently carriers of [other non-COV] diseases', but even in these two cases, the examination of the files is not concluded and therefore, causes of death different from Covid-19 could emerge. The president of the ISS has specified that 'little more than a hundred medical records' have so far come from hospitals throughout Italy."
"...At present, in fact, the authorities are unable to distinguish those who died from the virus, from those who, on the other hand, are communicated daily to the public, but who were mostly carriers of other serious diseases and who, therefore, would not have died from Covid-19. In response to a question from 'Agenzia Nova', in fact, Brusaferro was unable to indicate the exact number of coronavirus deaths. However, the professor clarified that, according to the data analyzed, the vast majority of the victims 'had serious [non-COV] pathologies and in some cases the onset of an infection of the respiratory tract can lead more easily to death.' To clarify this point, and provide real data, 'as we acquire the folders we will go further. However, the populations most at risk are fragile, carriers of multiple diseases'."
Translation into non-medical language: the people dying in Italy have other very serious traditional diseases that have nothing to do with COV, and it's obvious they could have died, and probably did die, from those other diseases. Nevertheless, we're locking down the whole country.
What Kreuz said and ac just highlighted above is proof that statistics are manufactured.
The real virus here seems to be fear, and my only reaction so far has been anger at how panicked people have been.
Ireland
First death 11th March
Second death 14th March.
None since.
An taoiseach Leo varadkar has said we'll be in quarantine for 3/4 months.
Cluster breaks out in Italy Feb 18th and magnificently fireballs through the population.
On average I would imagine there are approx 40 flights per day between Ireland and Italy. And that's probably just Dublin.
How come a month later we haven't had our fireball??.
How come it'll take 3/4 months to get on top of this?
Ugggh life is just going to never be the same again after this.
God bless us .
The lockdown: One month in Wuhan
At 10 a.m. on January 23, Wuhan went into lockdown. This was done to stop a deadly virus from spreading further across the nation. It was one day before Chinese New Year's Eve, a major travel day for people planning to return home for the holidays. This documentary is dedicated to all those who've been battling tirelessly against the COVID-19 virus in order to keep the epidemic at bay. Their efforts in safeguarding humanity from the virus will always be remembered.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU9FVqwO4TM[/yt]
Here I will throw another take on the current situation: (Copied from a facebook post)
Looks plausible but I'll leave it for you to decide. I read about Fort Detrick last week but haven;t really tought much about it. I think the truth will never be known.
Did Americas plan for a biological warfare backfire?
FORT DETRICK, THE UNITED STATES BIOLOGICAL WARFARE LAB IS WHERE CORONAVIRUS ORIGINATED
FORCED TO SHUT DOWN WHEN VIRUSES LEAKED AUGUST 2019
US SOLDIERS WERE INFECTED
300 CAME TO WUHAN ON PRETENSE OF TAKING PART IN THE WORLD MILITARY COMPETITION - WON NOT ONE MEDAL
SPREAD OUT IN WUHAN WITH SOME VISITING THE WET MARKETS
US CONSULATE IN WUHAN FULLY EVACUATED WITH BIOWEAPON DRUMS LEFT IN GROUNDS
WEEKS LATER FIRST VICTIM OF CORONAVIRUS APPEARED IN WUHAN
US FOUND TO HAVE 5 STRAINS, WUHAN HAS ONE
PROVING THE UNITED STATES IS THE ORIGIN OF THE CORONAVIRUS
READ ON
PS - FURTHER PROOF IN POST FOLLOWING IN COMMENT BELOW
"As posted by June Lee:
August 6, 2019, the US's main biological warfare lab at Fort Detrick was issued a "ceast and desist" order because of violation of safety standards and protocol, and leaks.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/virus-biological-us-army-weapons-fort-detrick-leak-ebola-anthrax-smallpox-ricin-a9042641.html?fbclid=IwAR0j2sIkNu9DrJRAkPPJd89pDCw_4F3qv4IttHHTFNrf6OMetszYHx4tm0c
August - September 2019, "statewide outbreak" of a mysterious respiratory emerged in the US, causing severe respiratory diseases in a few hundred people. This was blamed on vaping although people had been vaping for more than a decade without such outbreaks. Officials were unable to find any relation to a specific vaping device and addictive.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/mysterious-vaping-lung-injuries-may-have-flown-under-regulatory-radar-n1046771
August 2019 - Jan 2020, the US CDC reported that the US is gearing up for one of the worst flu seasons ever, with 12000 deaths. On 12 March 2020, the CDC director admitted that some COVID-19 deaths were misdiagnosed as the flu because COVID-19 were found when they did posthumous tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_dU2RCqWs4
October 18 - 27, 2019, the 2019 Military World Games was held in Wuhan. The US sent a contingent of 350 athletes. They did not win any medals. The athletes toured Wuhan.
November 2019, the Chinese press reported that five athletes who had suffered from infectious disease had been discharged from hospital.
November 2019, Wuhan locals were detected with COVID-19, with a spike of such terms in local social media. This coincided with the post-incubation period after the Military World Games.
https://www.businessinsider.sg/coronavirus-patients-zero-contracted-case-november-2020-3?r=US&IR=T&fbclid=IwAR1ZL2C2GyTQP1cnMUWxOYgxavCCuW95gCgNopnKzgl397q3xz-yTw2nogk
December 1, 2019, the first confirmed case of COVID-19 was detected in Wuhan. Subsequently more than 80000 people will be infected. Of the first 41 cases, 34% were not related to the wildlife market.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext?fbclid=IwAR0nkt1xVomgLzNi41fFPqWK5QUpCmh1OAs_en7LhP1I1IG02z-1G2zytx8
Daniel Lucey, an infectious disease specialist at Georgetown University, claimed that because there is an incubation time between infection and symptoms surfacing, and the presence of infected people with no links to wildlife market, the virus could not have originated from the wildlife market. Kristian Andersen, an evolutionary biologist at the Scripps Research Institute, agreed with the assessment.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/wuhan-seafood-market-may-not-be-source-novel-virus-spreading-globally?fbclid=IwAR092CucsPcSuZEHaLUIcDo_1d9JMCGUFWQroZ2-suzUypG5a_iqoiraFD4
Genotype assay of COVID-19 revealed 5 variants/strains (group ABCDE) of the virus. Most regions in the world have 1-2 COVID-19 variants including Hubei (mainly group C), and UK (Group 😎. US is the only country with all 5 variants (Group ABCDE). In Virology 101, the region with the most variants is the origin of the disease.
https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/.../cAB5zssIBQ0x144B7DJ7kB43.../640...
https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/.../cAB5zssIBQ0x144B7DJ7kB43.../640...
25 Jan, 2020, Japanese couple went for a 10 days vacation in Hawaii. On the second week they fell ill. On return to Japan they were tested and confirmed to have COVID-19.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/14/us/coronavirus-hawaii-japan.html?fbclid=IwAR3Lctg9nZPeS2LWxxsqg0km9djKC8wyax0jaFNHZqiwgHqiQKVhZO57Sl4
Italy lab confirmed that the strain of COVID-19 is different from the one circulating in China, and that the circulation of the virus is not so recent, and had been spreading undetected for weeks.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/28/coronavirus-may-have-been-in-italy-for-weeks-before-it-was-detected?fbclid=IwAR2R8nk-p6MsmArnCpYaxS4a6mcARdU80qmkfZfnGh5HU3rIx8RCUuTPZ7g
China's coronavirus expert Dr Zhong Nanshan, the discoverer of SARS, said that although COVID-19 was detected in China, it doesn't necessary mean that it originated from China.
As of March 12, 2020, the US had only tested 10000 people, and COVID-19 was confirmed in 1600 of them. As a comparison South Korea tests 10000 people a day, but the disease rate trajectory is the same as the US. This suggests that there is a great number of infected people in the US, just that they were not tested.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/13/21178289/confirmed-coronavirus-cases-us-countries-italy-iran-singapore-hong-kong?fbclid=IwAR34HeYmUYEjjLCAasGviVjZKkVmex7faAc43vWVd7KTuWfLVDRdHV2mCl4
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/virus-biological-us-army-weapons-fort-detrick-leak-ebola-anthrax-smallpox-ricin-a9042641.html?fbclid=IwAR2pRUh_lnIAm4bH09F1fclA_7doJODHuJ3DqsqijN4BkNgelaY1xFJHLnM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 17, 2020, 04:41:42 PM
This was done to stop a deadly virus from spreading further across the nation.
Clearly not, as the virus, if it exists, is not deadly and only leads to fatal complications in people who are already seriously ill or at death's door.
QuoteTheir efforts in safeguarding humanity from the virus will always be remembered.
Keep your schlock and cringe barf bags handy.
QuoteDid Americas plan for a biological warfare backfire?
The problem with giving credence to all these biowarfare conspiracies is one simple fact: they said the same thing about HIV being a biological weapon. Except I can say with 100% certainty that HIV is not an infectious agents and does not cause AIDS, and that AIDS as it is defined today is a construct consisting of multiple unrelated conditions and diseases with different causes. Truly, HIV/AIDS and the lies, fraud, paltry standards of "evidence" and logical silliness involved in it is the most glaring evidence that the whole of virology and its attendant medical industry is not to be trusted and might just be completely wrong.
QuoteAugust 2019 - Jan 2020, the US CDC reported that the US is gearing up for one of the worst flu seasons ever, with 12000 deaths. On 12 March 2020, the CDC director admitted that some COVID-19 deaths were misdiagnosed as the flu because COVID-19 were found when they did posthumous tests.
Oh? OH? Really? So is I'm readign thsi correctly,
Kreuz was absolutely right? If you'd have tested people last year you would have "found" the "virus"*? Where's my friggin apology, eh? Where's my apology from the guy who spoke about time machines? Of course I was right, because I'm right about the nature of viruses, virus tests and what's going on here. It's quack science. It's phrenology and phlogiston theory and Darwin's ridiculous Origin of Species, built upon hot air, overactive imaginations and simple explain-it-all explanations.
*i.e., found some alleged markers of the alleged virus which cannot show cause of disease.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 17, 2020, 04:41:42 PM
The lockdown: One month in Wuhan
At 10 a.m. on January 23, Wuhan went into lockdown. This was done to stop a deadly virus from spreading further across the nation. It was one day before Chinese New Year's Eve, a major travel day for people planning to return home for the holidays. This documentary is dedicated to all those who've been battling tirelessly against the COVID-19 virus in order to keep the epidemic at bay. Their efforts in safeguarding humanity from the virus will always be remembered.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU9FVqwO4TM[/yt]
It's only the flu and the above video is yet another example of the kind of relentless propaganda that this psyop involves.
The debt fuelled ponzi shceme that is the global economy is crashing and they are hyping this flu bug to the hilt in order to get everyone into lockdown, nice and docile, so that when the crash does happen they can transition into the one-world, digitalised, cashless, totalitarian, dystopian nightmare that the prophets of doom have been warning about.
World-wide lockdown because of a flu bug. Pull the other one.
Cases near 200,000. Deaths touching 8000. And no less significant, nearly 165 (out of around 196) countries in the world affected now https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Let's all try to do what we can to help each other stay safe in this crisis; and let us turn to God in prayer with confidence and faith and hope that it will not last and we will defeat it.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 17, 2020, 01:21:37 PM
Miriam M, I understand you. but don;t you think it smells rather fishy? Do you think Event 201 was just a coincident?
In terms of our personal safety,
it doesn't matter what the reason or source is. Or, to put it another way, the evidence as to its spread is actually working against the idea of bioterrorism, because the latter would have been far more lethal, given the continents covered so far.
Either way, however, it presents a crisis for the average person because I do not believe any of us on this thread is a government agent in direct public health responsibility. We are each responsible for our own health, and because of that, for the health of our human contacts. Denying that there's an infectious disease floating around, or obsessing about "who's doing it?" is not a formula for personal responsibility; it's an indirect rejection of personal responsibility, or at least a distraction from it.
In some cases I think that local governments are overreacting, or omitting the right decisions while implementing wrong decisions. But that does not mean that a public health crisis is not occurring.
You couldn't make this up. Here's the latest from the 'leave everything open' UK.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/17/exclusive-deathbed-goodbyes-should-done-skype-says-new-nhs-coronavirus/
Quote
Dying patients should be encouraged to say goodbye to their families over Skype during a major coronavirus outbreak, according to official guidance issued to NHS hospitals.
Families should be restricted from visiting their relatives in intensive care to avoid spreading the disease on hospital wards, doctors have been told.
Instead relatives should be asked to use "mobile devices and video calling" to speak to dying patients rather than risk contracting the disease by visiting them in person.
The guidance seen by The Telegraph was issued to hospitals across the UK yesterday by the Faculty of Intensive Care Medicine and the Royal College of Anaesthetists.
If people aren't asking questions about all this, then they should be.
"BREAKING! Coronavirus Research Reveals That People With Blood Type A Have Higher Risk Of Contracting Covid-19 Compared To Blood Type O Which Has A Lower Risk
Source: Coronavirus Research Mar 17, 2020 9 hours ago
Coronavirus Research : An interesting new non peer-reviewed study that was conducted by 19 Chinese Medical Researchers in collaboration with eight different medical research centers and universities have concluded that individuals with blood type A had a higher risk of contracting the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus and developing the Covid-19 disease irrespective of gender or age.
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thailandmedical.news%2Fuploads%2Feditor%2Ffiles%2FCoronavirus-Research%2811%29.jpg&hash=a28ec5d5c9c1169286a00fe57f7a9704df075eed)
The study also indicated that most blood type A patients were most likely to have the disease progress into severe or critical stages compared to the rest of the blood groups.( https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.11.20031096v1.full.pdf+html)
The study which is not peer-reviewed, was led by Dr Jiao Zhao from the School Of Medicine at Shenzhen University of Science and Technology and involved a meta-analysis study of the tested records of 2 713 patients from three tertiary hospitals in Wuhan and Shenzhen.
The ABO group in 3694 normal people in Wuhan showed a distribution of 32.16%, 24.90%, 9.10% and 33.84% for A, B, AB and O, respectively, versus the distribution of 37.75%, 26.42%, 10.03% and 25.80% for A, B, AB and O, respectively, in 1,775 COVID-19 patients from Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital. The proportion of blood group A and O in COVID-19 patients were significantly higher and lower, respectively, than that in normal people (both P < 0.001).
Similar ABO distribution pattern was observed in 398 patients from another two hospitals in Wuhan and Shenzhen. Meta-analyses on the pooled data showed that blood group A had a significantly higher risk for COVID-19 (odds ratio-OR, 1.20; 95% confidence interval-CI 1.02~1.43, P = 0.02) compared with non-A blood groups, whereas blood group O had a significantly lower risk for the infectious disease (OR, 0.67; 95% CI 0.60~0.75, P < 0.001) compared with non-O blood groups. In addition, the influence of age and gender on the ABO blood group distribution in patients with COVID-19 from two Wuhan hospitals (1,888 patients) were analyzed and found that age and gender do not have much effect on the distribution.
The findings also showed that those with blood type O had the lowest risk of contracting the Covid-19 disease compared with non-O groups.
It was noted that during the SARS-CoV outbreak in 2003, a peer-reviewed study published in JAMA also showed that the SARS virus also exhibited a similar trait in which the group O individuals had a lower risk of contracting the disease. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15784866)
A study published in the Glycobiology journal in 2005 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18818423) found that anti-A antibodies specifically inhibited the adhesion of SARS-CoV S protein-expressing cells to ACE2-expressing cell lines8 . Given the nucleic acid sequence similarity9 and receptor angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) binding similarity between SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-210-12, the lower susceptibility of blood group O and higher susceptibility of blood group A for COVID-19 could be linked to the presence of natural anti-blood group antibodies, particularly anti-A antibody, in the blood. This hypothesis will need direct studies to prove. There may also be other mechanisms underlying the ABO blood group-differentiated susceptibility for COVID-19 that require further studies to elucidate.
The authors of the study state that this study may have potential clinical implications given the current COVID-19 crisis.
The first is that individuals with blood group A might need particularly strengthened personal protection to reduce the chance of infection.
The second is that SARS-CoV-2-infected patients with blood group A might need to receive more vigilant surveillance.
The third is that it might be helpful to introduce ABO blood typing in both patients and medical personal as a routine part of the management of SARS-CoV-2 and other coronavirus infections, to help define the management options and assess risk exposure levels of people.
The researchers cautioned however that it should be emphasized that due certain limitations, one should be cautious to use this study to guide clinical practice at this time. This study encourages further studies."
https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/breaking-coronavirus-research-reveals-that-people-with-blood-type-a-have-higher-risk-of-contracting-covid-19-compared-to-blood-type-o-which-has-a-low
We think my Type A sister may have it, though we're all still waiting for those results.
I'm happy to see greater international scientific co-operation than ever before. Humanity is at War with this disease now, and we must defeat it at all costs. The lives and health of so many innocent people - like your Sister, Miriam - depend gravely on it. May God help us all.
And from: https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/breaking-latestcoronavirus-research-reveals-that-the-virus-has-mutated-gene-similar-to-hiv-and-is-1,000-times-more-potent-
BREAKING! LatestCoronavirus Research Reveals That The Virus Has Mutated Gene Similar To HIV and Is 1,000 Times More Potent.
Source: Coronavirus Research News Feb 29, 2020 18 days ago
Latest coronavirus research by a team of researchers from Nankai University in Tianjin lead by Professor Ruan Jishou, a prominent virologists and genomicist have discovered that the new SARS-Cov-2 coronavirus that causes the Covid-19 disease has a mutated gene that is found in HIV virus. It is this unique feature that sets it aside from the rest of the known coronaviruses.
The study is published this week on Chinaxiv.org, a platform used by the Chinese Academy of Sciences to release scientific research papers before they have been peer-reviewed .( http://www.chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00082)
These findings have huge implications on the potency of the coronavirus and also what it can cause in humans, not just the Covid-19 disease. Furthermore, the Covid-19 disease should never be compared to like the common cold or influenza virus as this new coronavirus is in a separate league of its own.
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Though it has not been peer reviewed, two other studies including one in Europe has confirmed the findings.
The combined findings from the three studies indicates that because of the HIV-like mutations, its ability to bind with human cells could be as much as 1,000 times more potent that the initial SARS virus of 2003.
The findings also indicate that the new SARS-CoV-2 has a 'dual attack' approach of binding to human cells.
The first is via the ACE2 receptors found on human cell membranes and it's a typical mode of most coronaviruses. (The new SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus has a plus 80 percent genomic matching to the previous SARS virus, hence it explains this property that it possesses)
However it must be noted that the ACE2 protein does not occur in large quantities in healthy people, and this partly helped to limit the scale of the SARS outbreak of 2002/2003 which infected close to 8,000 people globally.
As the findings of the new study indicates that the new SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus has a mutated gene similarly found on the HIV virus, it is also able to attack human cells via the target called furin, which is an enzyme that works as a protein activator in the human body. Typically many proteins are inactive or dormant when they are produced and have to be "cut" at specific points to activate their various functions which furin does in the human cellular pathways.
Professor Ruan Jishou and his team at Nankai University in Tianjin discovered this new property of the SARS-CoV-2 when they were doing genome sequencing of the new coronavirus found a section of mutated genes that did not exist in the original SARS virus, but were similar to those found in HIV.
Professor Ruan Jishou told Thailand Medical News via a phone interview, "This finding suggests that 2019-nCoV coronavirus may be significantly different from the SARS coronavirus in the infection pathway and has the added potency of using the packing mechanisms of other viruses such as HIV."
The findings of the study reveal that the mutation can generate a structure known as a cleavage site in the new coronavirus' spike protein.
Typically, a virus uses the outreaching spike protein to hook on to the host cell, but normally this protein is inactive. The cleavage site structure's role is to trick the human furin protein, so it will cut and activate the spike protein and cause a "direct fusion" of the viral and cellular membranes.
The result findings show that when compared to the initial SARs mode of entry, this binding method is more than a 1,000 times efficient.
Another research conducted also this month, by Professor Li Hua , another prominent virologist and genetic specialists, and his team from Huazhong University of Science and Technology in Wuhan, Hubei province, also confirmed Professor Ruan's findings. http://www.chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00062
The study indicated that the HIV-like gene found on the new SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus was not detected on any of the other coronaviruses including the MERS, original SARS and even the Bat-CoVRaTG13, a bat coronavirus that was considered the original source of the new coronavirus with 96 per cent similarity in genes.
Professor Li told Thailand Medical News," This is maybe why the SARS-CoV-2 is more infectious than the other known coronaviruses."
A European a study by French scientist professor Dr Etienne Decroly at Aix-Marseille University in France, which was published in the scientific journal Antiviral Research , also found a "furin-like cleavage site" that is absent in similar coronaviruses, thus confirming the initial findings as well. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32057769)
The new findings is bringing scientists and researchers towards understanding how the new coronavirus behaves and how it makes us ill plus helps in developing treatment protocols. Experts' perception of the new coronavirus has changed dramatically over the past few weeks.
The link to the furin enzyme could shed light on the coronavirus' evolutionary history before it made the jump to humans. The mutation, which Professor Ruan's team terms as an "unexpected insertion", could come from many possible sources such as a coronavirus found in rats or even a species of avian flu.
Initially, the new coronavirus was not considered a major threat, with the Chinese Centres for Disease Control and Prevention saying there was no evidence off human-to-human transmission. But this was later invalidated. Then it was said that it was not airborne, this too has become invalidated. Also came expert claims that the virus only had a 14 day incubation period and that it could only survive on surfaces for a few hours, all this have become invalidated.
As of today, Saturday 29 February 2020 we have almost close 90,000 infected cases worldwide, almost 3,000 deaths and more than a million suspected cases in a time span of about 9 weeks since the coronavirus was first detected.
Thailand Medical has been carefully studying and monitoring reports on various genomic sequencing studies to monitor the mutations of the coronavirus and almost all are proving that while the coronavirus is evolving with certain codon changes (no genetic or genomic expert knows what is these significance of these minute codon changes taking place as it passes from human to human, but we can safely assume that the virus is learning and adapting smartly).
However no major mutations have taken place as in the case of most typical coronaviruses when they replicate and lead to their inefficiency and eventual demise as in the case of the original SARS, these new coronavirus is extremely stable in transmissions and replications and is in fact becoming more virulent, indicating we are dealing with a strain that is going to be with us for a longtime.
It is also important for all experts to note that the coronavirus has a 96 percent match to the Bat-CoVRaTG13 coronavirus versus an approximate 82 per cent match to the original SARS coronavirus. Shifting a focus from the original SARS coronavirus which many experts tend to focus on when making doing studies and comparisons to instead the Bat-CoVRaTG13 coronavirus might also reveal more details about the new SARS-CoV-2 as these bat viruses have evolved over time and possess many unique properties that we have yet to understand.
The fact that reinfections are emerging and that we still do not know what latent viral loads in the body can do to us in the short term, midterm or long term as we have only been exposed to the new virus in the last 9 weeks or so makes it even more frightening.
One virologist from UK who says he wanted to remain anonymous as he might be accused of causing panic or misinformation warned that the new coronavirus can be described in basic terms as a "slow airborne killer that will never let its victim off, even if it loses the battle the first time",implying that even in those so called recovered , they might face reinfections or that the existing viral loads in the body will eventually cause some other new chronic disease.
For the latest coronavirus research developments, keep checking at : https://www.thailandmedical.news/articles/coronavirus
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 17, 2020, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 17, 2020, 04:41:42 PM
This was done to stop a deadly virus from spreading further across the nation.
Clearly not, as the virus, if it exists, is not deadly and only leads to fatal complications in people who are already seriously ill or at death's door.
Correct. This is part of the fear mongering that distorts the reality of what is still happening.
FACT: Italy is a nation of heavy smokers.
FACT: 23% of Italy's population is elderly.
FACT: Italian culture favors a social behavior (touching, kissing, universally) that encourages infections disease spread.
FACT: The U.S. media conveniently leaves out details about the fatalities in this country, but if you look at Washington State as an example, the majority have come from nursing facilities (hint, everybody: elderly)
Those of us with underlying medical susceptibility for different reasons need to take special care, which many of us are already doing and have been doing for 3 months anyway. This is especially true of lung disease, since virus quickly attaches to the lungs upon entering the body.
And some hopeful news already. This is the scientific method at work; one must base conclusions on empirical results.
"Covid-19 Research Updates: Chinese Study Reveals That Hypokalemia Present In Almost All Covid-19 Patients
Source: Covid-19 Research Mar 09, 2020 9 days ago
Covid-19 Research: A new research study by researchers from Wenzhou Medical University in Zhejiang province lead by Dr Don Chen revealed that almost all Covid-19 patients exhibited hypokalemia and that supplementation with potassium ions was one of the many factors that assisted in their recovery.
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Hypokalemia is best described as low level of potassium (K+) ions in the blood serum. Mild low potassium does not typically cause symptoms. Symptoms may include feeling tired, leg cramps, weakness, and constipation. Low potassium also increases the risk of an abnormal heart rhythm, which is often too slow and can cause cardiac arrest.
It was found that as the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus attacks human cells via the ACE2 (Angiotensin- converting enzyme-2) receptors, it also attacks the renin–angiotensin system (RAS), causing low electrolyte levels in particularly potassium ions.
The study involving 175 patients in collaboration with Wenzhou Hospital found that almost all patients exhibited hypokalemia and for those who already had hypokalemia, the situation even drastically worsened as the disease progressed.
However, it was found from the study that patients responded well to potassium ion supplements and had a better chance of recovery.
The researchers noted that the end of urine K+ loss indicates a good prognosis and may be a reliable as a sensitive biomarker directly reflecting the end of adverse effect on RAS system.
The study has yet to be peer reviewed and has been published in the open platform medRvix : (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.27.20028530v1.full.pdf+html)
However, doctors at various hospitals in Wuhan, Shanghai and Guangdong have witnessed similar occurrences and also found that potassium ion supplementation helped patients towards recovery.
For the latest on Covid-19 research developments, keep checking at: Thailand Medical News
Please also help share our site and articles online as being a poor entity that is not profit orientated, we do not have any support from any Thai Government or private Thai companies as most Thai companies and corporations do not think that health of medical issues are of importance as they are more busy with their own greed. We also do not also get any support from the local private hospitals and pharma companies and organizations, hence we do not have monies to pay American social media platforms like Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter whose local offices and regional offices in Singapore, Thailand, and India will lower your feed exposure as you are not advertising with them. For example with LinkedIn, though we have like 12,000 followers on our personal acct, but less than 200 can actually see our daily news postings as LinkedIn lowers the feed. We have the same problem with Twitter as well . We are basically a Thai medical mediatech and general mediatech startup that has never received any support from any entities in Thailand due to the prevalence of nepotism, corruption and also ego and incompetence on the part of certain senior executives and also the fact that Thais do not know how to collaborate and work together!
We like to thank the 3.2 million odd regular readers who have been following us so far."
USA: 6439 cases, 109 deaths.
Italy: 31,500 cases, 2,500 deaths.
https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/breaking-coronavirus-research-could-echinacea-act-as-a-prophylaxis-against-the-sars-cov-2-coronavirus-more-research-warranted
BREAKING! Coronavirus Research: Could Echinacea Act As A Prophylaxis Against The SARS-Cov-2 Coronavirus? More Research Warranted
Source: Coronavirus Research Mar 10, 2020 8 days ago
Coronavirus Research: A recent study published on an open platform but has yet to be peer reviewed caught our eyes as it was strangely conducted by the prestigious Spiez Laboratory In Switzerland by a team of leading virologists and microbiologists, but what intrigued me was that why would a prestigious research centre like the Spiez laboratory that had enormous funds and had some of the leading specialist post a 'half-baked' research on an open platform?
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Their research claimed that Echinacea purpurea preparations could serve as effective prophylactic treatment for all CoVs or coronaviruses including newly occurring strains, such as the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus. (https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-15282/v1)
Their study only focused on vitro studies and focused on seven CoVs that have been found to cause disease in humans. Four of those, HCoV–229E, HCoV-OC43, HCoV-NL63 and HCoV-HKU1, are non-zoonotic and cause worldwide outbreaks predominantly in the winter period.
These HCoVs replicate in the nasopharynx and generally cause mild, self-limited upper respiratory tract infections with short incubation periods, although lower tract respiratory infections and pneumonia have occasionally been described. The more virulent coronaviruses, Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)-CoV and Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS)-CoV were also included in the study but not the actual new SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus.
Though their study claims that vitro studies showed inhibitory properties for most for the coronaviruses, the study was lacking details in terms of the actually isolated active ingredients in the Echinacea and also what was the actual cellular pathways involved and also that the actual SARS-CoV-2 virus was not used. (We at Thailand Medical News considered it premature to compare the new SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus to the rest of the coronaviruses, as already many emerging studies are showing a variety of anomalies.)
There has been numerous studies published in the past , some claiming that Echinacea helped in the prevention or shortening of the duration of common colds and respiratory diseases while others claiming that it is no better than placebo.
There are some interesting past studies that have demonstrated antiviral properties against certain common non-zoonotic coronaviruses by some of the isolated phytochemicals from Echinacea but it is still too premature to assume anything till more detailed studies are done.
However we are not totally discounting that Echinacea can be used as prophylaxis against the new coronavirus but just that more detailed and concrete studies need to be done before any such claims are made. (In fact our editorial teams quickly rushed out to stock up on as much as we could for ourselves and our families through all our global offices, as we are typically 'guinea pigs' for literally every drug that has been mentioned! It was also during this stocking up that we discovered something else that made us more curious as further 'digging' revealed that the same laboratory has purchased a total of 265 tons of the Echichinacea from Canada and Eastern America suppliers in the last few weeks causing a massive shortage for supplement manufacturers, not to mention that they were also buying up processed and packed Echinacea preparations. Almost all the prestigious brands like Blackmore, Now, Life Extension, Best Nutrition, Green Life all reported that they have run out of stocks except those already in retail outlets and are unable to replenish stocks due to shortage of raw materials. We only did our checks based on foreign brands not on any Asian brands which we consider inferior as many do not contain the correct bio active ingredients despite labeling them as such, in particular brands made in Myanmar, Indonesia and certain made in Thailand brands.)
(Note: The research says that Echinaceas may act as a prophylaxis not for treating the coronavirus.Also one should not try to selftreat, always consult a licensed doctor and also before attempting to take any supplements, always consult a healthcare professional. Note that Echinacea consumption can also cause certain adverse medical and health issues with certain individuals.)
For the latest on Coronavirus Research, keep on logging on to: https://www.thailandmedical.news/articles/coronavirus
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Quote from: james03 on March 17, 2020, 06:03:47 PM
USA: 6439 cases, 109 deaths.
Italy: 31,500 cases, 2,500 deaths.
And for context, a population comparison may also be instructive.
Here are comment that support what Kreuz stated numerous times throughout this post. I personally believe it to be true based on my own observations and research I have done. It is all about detox.
Plamen says:
March 17, 2020 at 12:57 pm
Outstanding! Great find, Jon.
No one in the world in human history has ever died from a virus. Anyway, it is only the initial phase of the morphing of the microzyma so it can not kill the organism.
Disease do not exist. They are in fact the manifestation of cleaning undergoing in the body. The health of the body depends on the level of toxicity. Toxemia is the only subject that needs to be studies in medical schools.
Reply
J.B. says:
March 17, 2020 at 4:18 pm
Well disease exists, it is as you said, the manifestation of virus or bacteria attempting to restore homeostasis, which requires toxins to be eliminated through the mucus, skin, and bowels. This will always result in symptoms of some sort because your body is detoxifying. And it is true that viruses do not kill—Instead, the systemic toxic condition kills. because cells can not regenerate their tissues and fluids nor maintain proper regulation in the face of toxicity and nutrient malnourished.
Anyone feel free to correct my math if I'm wrong.
USA: 6439 cases, 109 deaths.
US Population = 331,002,651
.0000329 = percentage of deaths to population (negligible)
.001945 = percentage of cases to population (one tenth of one percent)
.0169 = percentage of deaths to cases (less than 2%)
Italy: 31,500 cases, 2,500 deaths
Italian Population = 60,487,167
.00413 = percentage of deaths to population (four-tenths of one percent)
.052077 = percentage of cases to population (five percent)
.0793 = percentage of deaths to cases (almost eight percent)
Math looks right, Miriam; except the second percentage in the US seems closer to 0.2%, so 1/5th of 1%, but that's a triviality.
But if anyone wants a universal perspective, and some food for thought on likely under-reporting, "The novel coronavirus has infected more than 28,000 people to date [6 February], although significant under-reporting as well as undetected cases suggest the number of those who have contracted the virus worldwide could be as many as 300,000 by 10 February. This is according to an epidemiological model published by risk modelling and data analytics firm AIR Worldwide." https://www.asiainsurancereview.com/News/View-NewsLetter-Article/id/50098/type/AIRPlus/Model-predicts-number-of-coronavirus-cases-to-be-ten-times-more-than-reported
Anyway, official statistics worldwide are as follows:
Coronavirus Cases(CC): 198,214
Deaths(D): 7,965
Recovered(R): 81,734
Therefore, we can compute,
Death Rate (DR) = D/CC = 4.0184%
Recovery Rate (RR) = R/CC = 41.235%
And further, we have a data point:
Serious or Critical (SC): 7,020
Ergo, we have, adding them as those in danger of death,
Dead or Dying rate; or Danger of Death Rate (DDR) = (SC+D)/CC= 7.56%
International Information can be tracked here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
For comparison, the death rate from the flu is 0.1%. That's why it was reported the novel coronavirus was at least ten times deadlier than flu, beside being several times more contagious, and for which there is a vaccine; and hence the comparison to a flu was inaccurate. We've seen this strain has some relation to HIV per the research article. So we're dealing with a complex new virus here; the good news is over 40% of patients at least have already recovered; but there is also clearly cause for concern at the same time with a Death Rate of over 4% and a Danger of Death Rate of over 7.5%. [Edit: the research portion on HIV similarity, "Latest coronavirus research by a team of researchers from Nankai University in Tianjin lead by Professor Ruan Jishou, a prominent virologists and genomicist have discovered that the new SARS-Cov-2 coronavirus that causes the Covid-19 disease has a mutated gene that is found in HIV virus. It is this unique feature that sets it aside from the rest of the known coronaviruses."]
Quote from: Xavier on March 17, 2020, 07:03:33 PM
the good news is over 40% of patients at least have already recovered;
Two other sources within the last two days put the recovery rate as over half of the still-active cases.
And again, the rate of death for the elderly is significantly higher than the rate for those under 60. To average the death rate without regard to that is unintentionally a distortion.
Quote"BREAKING! Coronavirus Research Reveals That People With Blood Type A Have Higher Risk Of Contracting Covid-19 Compared To Blood Type O Which Has A Lower Risk
It takes a special kind of intellectual retardation, similar to the one experienced by Darwinian evolutionists, to think we live in a reality in which an infection by a disease-causing agent on the order of microns in size would depend upon blood type.
Of course, if the particular genetic sequences which are alleged to be markers for "coronavirus" are actually naturally produced by the human body, it makes sense that the presence or absence of a particular gene might vary by blood type.
QuoteBREAKING! LatestCoronavirus Research Reveals That The Virus Has Mutated Gene Similar To HIV and Is 1,000 Times More Potent.
Since it's now a demonstrable fact that the phenomena alleged to belong to a "retrovirus" (particularly reverse transcriptase) called HIV are naturally produced in the bodies of certain segments of the population, being particularly common among southern Africans, if this is true it only confirms that the purported infectious agents named "coronavirus" does not exist.
And anything is 1,000 times more potent than HIV, since what is being called "HIV" is entirely harmless.
Quoteand that supplementation with potassium ions was one of the many factors that assisted in their recovery.
We posted the recommendation to take potassium a week or two ago. They could have just asked us instead of wasting time on the study.
Quote from: Xavier on March 17, 2020, 07:03:33 PM
But if anyone wants a universal perspective, and some food for thought on likely under-reporting, "The novel coronavirus has infected more than 28,000 people to date [6 February], although significant under-reporting as well as undetected cases suggest the number of those who have contracted the virus worldwide could be as many as 300,000 by 10 February. This is according to an epidemiological model published by risk modelling and data analytics firm AIR Worldwide." https://www.asiainsurancereview.com/News/View-NewsLetter-Article/id/50098/type/AIRPlus/Model-predicts-number-of-coronavirus-cases-to-be-ten-times-more-than-reported
Anyway, official statistics worldwide are as follows:
Coronavirus Cases(CC): 198,214
Deaths(D): 7,965
Recovered(R): 81,734
Therefore, we can compute,
Death Rate (DR) = D/CC = 4.0184%
Recovery Rate (RR) = R/CC = 41.235%
No you can't compute anything from those figures. The total number of cases would have to be known and according to the linked article above, and many other sources, there is significant under-reporting of coronavirus cases because the majority of infected of people have only minor symptoms which they don't report and so aren't included in the figures.
Taking this into account, the death rate is likely to be far lower than your figure.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 17, 2020, 07:34:35 PMAnd anything is 1,000 times more potent than HIV, since what is being called "HIV" is entirely harmless.
:cheesehead:"Global situation and trends:Since the beginning of the epidemic, 75 million people have been infected with the HIV virus and about 32 million people have died of HIV. Globally, 37.9 million [32.7–44.0 million] people were living with HIV at the end of 2018." https://www.who.int/gho/hiv/en/ :pray3:
The scientists are doing their work. Let us prayer warriors do ours. Our duty is to pray, to fast if we are able, and to offer sacrifices - we can pray the Missa Sicca Lynne posted on the other thread https://reasonandtheology.com/2020/03/16/missa-sicca-a-mass-for-the-laity/ - for the disaster to end quickly. That is the Biblical response and that's how the people of God in the Old Testament, and the Saints of God throughout Church history, have often responded when there has been an outbreak of disease; to hasten its rapid cure.
Some doctors said it will take another 12 to 18 months to even begin to find a cure. Many said millions could die by that time. We ought to pray that deaths and time be reduced; that lives and souls be saved, and those dying not be lost. That is our duty and our work as Christians who believe in the Power of Prayer and of Faith. We could try to help those we know who are suffering because of this as well.
Denying that viruses exist and cause diseases, at this point in time, could be really unhelpful and even harmful or dangerous to people. Such misinformation will prolong the crisis.
An example of how God has moved to end chastisements that people call down on ourselves by our sins, through the Power of His Holy Name, in Church History:
"Chapter 4 THE PLAGUE IN LISBON: THE CITY SAVED BY THE HOLY NAMEA devastating plague broke out in Lisbon in 1432. All who could do so fled in terror from the city and thus carried the plague to every corner of the entire country of Portugal.
Thousands of men, women and children of all classes were swept away by the cruel sickness. So virulent was the epidemic that men died everywhere, at table, in the streets, in their houses, in the shops, in the marketplaces, in the churches. To use the words of historians, it flashed like lightning from man to man, or from a coat, a hat or any garment that had been used by the plague-stricken. Priests, doctors and nurses were carried off in such numbers that the bodies of many lay unburied in the streets, so that the dogs licked up the blood and ate the flesh of the dead, becoming as a result themselves infected with the dread disease and spreading it still more widely among the unfortunate people.
Among those who assisted the dying with unflagging zeal was a venerable bishop, Monsignor Andre Dias, who lived in the Convent or Monastery of St. Dominic. This holy man, seeing that the epidemic, far from diminishing, grew every day in intensity, and despairing of human help, urged the unhappy people to call on the Holy Name of Jesus. He was seen wherever the disease was fiercest, urging, imploring the sick and the dying, as well as those who had not as yet been stricken down, to repeat, "Jesus, Jesus." "Write it on cards," he said, "and keep those cards on your persons; place them at night under your pillows; place them on your doors; but above all, constantly invoke with your lips and in your hearts this most powerful Name."
He went about as an angel of peace filling the sick and the dying with courage and confidence. The poor sufferers felt within them a new life, and calling on Jesus, they wore the cards on their breasts or carried them in their pockets.
Then summoning them to the great Church of St. Dominic, he once more spoke to them of the power of the Name of Jesus and blessed water in the same Holy Name, ordering all the people to sprinkle themselves with it and sprinkle it on the faces of the sick and the dying. Wonder of wonders! The sick got well, the dying arose from their agonies, the plague ceased and the city was delivered in a few days from the most awful scourge that had ever visited it.
The news spread to the whole country and all began, with one accord, to call on the Name of Jesus. In an incredibly short time all Portugal was freed from the dread sickness.
The grateful people, mindful of the marvels they had witnessed, continued their love and confidence in the Name of our Saviour, so that in all their troubles, in all dangers, when evils of any kind threatened them, they invoked the Name of Jesus. Confraternities were formed in the churches, processions of the Holy Name were made monthly, altars were raised in honor of this blessed name, so that the greatest curse that had ever fallen on the country was transformed into the greatest blessing.
For long centuries this great confidence in the Name of Jesus continued in Portugal and thence spread to Spain, to France, and to the whole world." https://www.olrl.org/pray/wonders.shtml#chapter4
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 17, 2020, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: Xavier on March 17, 2020, 07:03:33 PM
the good news is over 40% of patients at least have already recovered;
Two other sources within the last two days put the recovery rate as over half of the still-active cases.
And again, the rate of death for the elderly is significantly higher than the rate for those under 60. To average the death rate without regard to that is unintentionally a distortion.
But how can the death rate be known if the majority of people with the coronavirus have symptoms so mild that they don't bother reporting it and therefore aren't included in the figures?
Quote from: Awkward Customerthere is significant under-reporting of coronavirus cases
Yes, it said number of cases are probably ten times more than is reported. But nobody knows, and one can only guesstimate, how many of the unofficial cases result in unofficial deaths or not.
Take Iran as a case study. Official Cases (OC) are around 16,000. Official Deaths (OD) are 988. "The death toll in Iran saw another 13% increase Tuesday. Health Ministry spokesman Kianoush Jahanpour said the virus had killed 135 more people to raise the total to 988 amid over 16,000 cases." https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/17/covid-19-iran-warns-that-millions-could-be-killed/ That's around 6.2% based on Official Statistics. Unofficial Case UC and Unofficial Deaths UD are unknowns, but many suspect the death rate is higher there.
So regarding un-reported cases, it goes both ways; some do not report because it is mild. Some do not report because it is embarrassing. What applies in a particular case may vary country by country.
From the link, "In announcing the new warning, the Iranian state TV journalist, Dr. Afruz Eslami, cited a study by Tehran's prestigious Sharif University of Technology, which offered three scenarios: If people cooperate fully now, Iran will see 120,000 infections and 12,000 deaths before the outbreak is over; if they offer medium cooperation, there will be 300,000 cases and 110,000 deaths.
But if people fail to follow any guidance, it could collapse Iran's already-strained medical system, Eslami said. If the "medical facilities are not sufficient, there will be 4 million cases, and 3.5 million people will die," she said."
Anyway, it's for us Christians to believe and to proclaim that there is healing in the Name of Jesus, as the earlier plague shows. Let us try, as Father Paul O Sullivan says in the book, to keep repeating "Jesus, Jesus" throughout the day as a prayer against the disease. Our Lord's Name, as we know, means God is my Salvation/Deliverance from all evil. The people of the Middle Ages had great Faith in the Holy Name, hence they received miracles.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 17, 2020, 08:06:45 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 17, 2020, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: Xavier on March 17, 2020, 07:03:33 PM
the good news is over 40% of patients at least have already recovered;
Two other sources within the last two days put the recovery rate as over half of the still-active cases.
And again, the rate of death for the elderly is significantly higher than the rate for those under 60. To average the death rate without regard to that is unintentionally a distortion.
But how can the death rate be known if the majority of people with the coronavirus have symptoms so mild that they don't bother reporting it and therefore aren't included in the figures?
They are ones that would be spreading it.
"Last week, officials in the United Kingdom were privately roasting the Trump administration for its response to the coronavirus: "Our COVID-19 counter-disinformation unit would need twice the manpower if we included him in our monitoring," one staffer told BuzzFeed News, referring to a task force designed to stop false reports from circulating during the crisis. Though President Trump's plan to halt spread of the virus could be critiqued from any number of angles, public-health experts were also questioning the U.K.'s plan, which "focuses on slowing but not necessarily stopping epidemic spread — reducing peak healthcare demand while protecting those most at risk of severe disease from infection," according to a report by the Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team, which is advising the U.K. government.
As the U.K.'s chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, puts it, the country is planning to suppress the coronavirus, "but not get rid of it completely," so that it would spread just among younger, safer age groups — and not the elderly or immunocompromised. But in the Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team's report released on Monday, the advisers realized the profound error in their plan. "Our most significant conclusion is that mitigation is unlikely to be feasible without emergency surge capacity limits of the UK and US healthcare systems being exceeded many times over," the researchers wrote, estimating that the systems could be overrun by as much as eight times their capacity.
In that scenario, the result in the U.K. would be around 250,000 deaths. Despite a plan of attack almost exactly inverse to that of every other country effectively responding to the crisis, the conclusion that the U.K. had bungled its response — and lost critical weeks in staving off the spread — had "only been reached in the last few days."
"We were expecting herd immunity to build," Imperial epidemiologist Azra Ghani said in a press conference on Monday night. "We now realize it's not possible to cope with that." Now, the researchers "conclude that epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time." To reduce the spread of the virus, the researchers recommend a plan resembling those of most other countries: "A combination of case isolation, social distancing of the entire population and either household quarantine or school and university closure are required." https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/u-k-realized-its-coronavirus-plan-could-kill-over-100-000.html
It just occurred to me that since all Masses have been canceled in the state of NY and other a number of other states, there will be little to no grace flowing down to earth. If this goes on for long we will eventually drown in darkness. How awfully frightening. This is a real chastisement. The Sacraments are cut off. This is horrific. :'( :pray1:
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 17, 2020, 09:30:23 PM
It just occurred to me that since all Masses have been canceled in the state of NY and other a number of other states, there will be little to no grace flowing down to earth.
If all Novus Ordo Masses are cancelled, then the number of sacrilegious outrages that offend God will be greatly lessened. Maybe then His anger will be appeased.
LOL. That was a great post.
Just got back from shopping. Note I live in fly over country. All beef: gone. All pork: gone. All chicken: gone. Soup, bread, pasta, rice, and a lot of everything else. Gone. They canceled schools, and I think that is what touched off the panic. If you are late to this, I'm starting up a new thread to go over prepping.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 17, 2020, 08:06:45 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 17, 2020, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: Xavier on March 17, 2020, 07:03:33 PM
the good news is over 40% of patients at least have already recovered;
Two other sources within the last two days put the recovery rate as over half of the still-active cases.
And again, the rate of death for the elderly is significantly higher than the rate for those under 60. To average the death rate without regard to that is unintentionally a distortion.
But how can the death rate be known if the majority of people with the coronavirus have symptoms so mild that they don't bother reporting it and therefore aren't included in the figures?
They know only the death rate of reported and tested cases, indeed. So it's the rate in the context of known cases only.
Elsewhere, by the way, I read that the "vast" majority of (tested, confirmed) cases, not just a seemingly simple majority, are quite mild. So that's why I tire of the media hyping over and over that "The number of cases have grown!"
And the # will grow and even spike as more tests become available. That's the point that has been made over and over by officials. It only means that
identification has happened, not that the infection is growing exponentially.
Quote from: MartinHow awfully frightening.
I've always found Psa 90/91 to be very comforting in times like these: "1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High, who abides in the shadow of the Almighty, 2 will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress; my God, in whom I trust." 3 For He will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence;
4 He will cover you with His Pinions, and under His Wings you will find refuge; His Faithfulness is a shield and buckler. 5 You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day, 6 nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness, nor the destruction that wastes at noonday."
EWTN video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEuxbL21X9w Another plague in Pope St. Gregory's time is mentioned, which the Image of Mary, as the Salvation of the Roman People, dispelled in Rome. We see throughout Church History what great things God can and will do for His people, if only they believe in the Power of His Name and call on His Mother for help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salus_Populi_Romani "Salus Populi Romani (Protectress, or more literally health or salvation, of the Roman People) is a Roman Catholic title associated with the venerated image of the Virgin Mary in Rome. This Byzantine icon of the Madonna and Christ Child holding a Gospel book is kept in the Borghese (Pauline) Chapel of the Basilica of Saint Mary Major.[1][2]"
I'm totally opposed to unnecessary hoarding that causes severe shortages for others. Schools and most other public gatherings here are on lockdown; but shops remain open and fairly well stocked. I purchased basic necessities for like the next week. That's it. If everyone tries to buy stuff for like the next 3 months, imo, nobody is going to be able to do that, and people who need food could starve right away. It'll also mess up supply chains and planning all over the place; as people panic and that panic cascades and becomes epidemic.
NYT article on the situation in India: https://news.yahoo.com/why-india-far-seems-staved-152540644.html
"The jury is still out on whether the world's second most populous nation can hold off the coronavirus pandemic, but so far at least, India has kept things at bay, The New York Times reports.
"I have been quite impressed with India," Dr. Henk Bekedam, the World Health Organization representative in India, said. "From the onset they've been taking it very seriously."
To date, India only has 125 confirmed cases, which pales in comparison to many of the world's other populous nations. Some of that does seem to be the result of swift action — state authorities, for example, used an onslaught of surveillance techniques to find about 1,000 people who came into contact with a family that returned from Italy in February and quarantined everyone. The government also shut borders, canceled visas, and denied entry to many foreigners, while some states have strengthened internal borders and screened passengers in cars and trains, per the Times.
At the same time, experts worry the number of cases is actually much higher because of limited testing, and not everyone is sure the government responded in a timely fashion, especially because people are still out and about in major cities like New Delhi. "The challenge of a large country like India with overcrowding is that some people will always slip the net, wherever you put it," said Dipanjan Roy, an Indian epidemiologist, who added that not putting harsher quarantines into effect even earlier may have cost the country.
Still, some experts are hopeful that India has a few other advantages up its sleeve, including the normally-frowned-upon prevalence of antibiotics dispensed without a prescription, the country's youthful demographics, increased testing, and the unproven possibility of warm weather halting the virus. Read more at The New York Times." https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/world/asia/india-coronavirus.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes
Don't worry. The hoarders go for the frozen pizza first.
Quote from: The Curt Jester on March 17, 2020, 11:06:47 PM
Don't worry. The hoarders go for the frozen pizza first.
Second, they go for snack food, especially chips, popcorn, etc. You'd think they were buying for some neighborhood Super Bowl party. And in my case I'm talking Whole Foods shoppers, those supposedly pristine purists who act horrified at the very idea of junk food.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 17, 2020, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: The Curt Jester on March 17, 2020, 11:06:47 PM
Don't worry. The hoarders go for the frozen pizza first.
Second, they go for snack food, especially chips, popcorn, etc. You'd think they were buying for some neighborhood Super Bowl party. And in my case I'm talking Whole Foods shoppers, those supposedly pristine purists who act horrified at the very idea of junk food.
My family did some prepping. We pasteurized meat in jars and also I froze baked chicken portions. Lots of good food.
(https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/images/CNA_555a5b3ed2d4e_59615.jpg?w=760)
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/french-catholics-begin-novena-as-lourdes-closes-for-first-time-in-history-18355
This close the Annunciation, let us pray a Novena that Lourdes remains open and thousands and millions experience Our Lady's healing.
"Lourdes, France, Mar 17, 2020 / 05:30 am (CNA).- The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes has closed for the first time in over a century following new restrictions in France to slow the spread of the coronavirus.
"For the first time in its history, the sanctuary will close its doors for a while. Pray with us the novena to the Immaculate," Mgr. Olivier Ribadeau Dumas, rector of the Lourdes sanctuary announced March 17.
No public Masses will be offered in the sanctuary due to national measures announced by French Prime Minister Emmanuel Macron on the evening of March 16.
France is the third European country to enact a mandatory national quarantine in response to the growing number of cases of COVID-19. Italy and Spain have both imposed nationwide lockdowns, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis have also announced bans on all religious services in their countries.
The French government restrictions include limiting citizens' movement outside of their homes for the next 15 days to grocery shopping and essential movement, as well as the closure of all schools, restaurants, cafes, and most businesses.
Following the closure of Lourdes, French Auxiliary Bishop Antoine Hérouard of Lille called on Catholics to participate in a novena to Our Lady of Lourdes from March 17-25 to pray for the sick who have been infected with the coronavirus.
"The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes is a privileged place of prayer for and with the sick," Bishop Hérouard said in his introduction to the novena published on March 17.
The French bishop is asking everyone to commit to praying the rosary for nine consecutive days, concluding on March 25, the feast of the Annunciation.
March 25 is also the anniversary of the Virgin Mary's 16th apparition at Lourdes in which Our Lady declared to St. Bernadette Soubirous "I am the Immaculate Conception."
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes in southern France is built upon the site where the young Bernadette Soubirous witnessed Marian apparitions, beginning on Feb. 11, 1858. The shrine also holds a spring of water which is said to have miraculous healing properties.
While there have been more than 7,000 miraculous recoveries attributed to the intercession of Our Lady of Lourdes at the French shrine, only 70 cases have been officially recognized by the Catholic Church. A miraculous recovery must generally be a complete, spontaneous, and immediate healing from a documented medical condition.
The last official miracle attributed to the intercession of Our Lady of Lourdes was declared in 2018.
"In these troubled times, where many ... because of the coronavirus, look to the future with concern, let us ask the Lord through the intercession of Our Lady of Lourdes, to renew us in confidence, hope and peace of heart," states the opening prayer of the Lourdes coronavirus novena.
"Mary, because you are the smile of God, the reflection of the light of Christ, the abode of the Holy Spirit, because you chose Bernadette in her poverty, you are the morning star, the gate to heaven and the first resurrected creature, we pray to you and entrust our lives to you at a time when so many men and of women fear for their health. Assist the sick and caregivers, welcome those who are dead, and be comfort for families," the prayer concludes."
Could someone please explain to me why, since "the vast majority " of Covid cases are mild, the US hospitals are "overwhelmed "? You mean all of the mild cases are taking over hospital beds, and if so, why are medical personnel allowing this? There is no mandated institutional quarantine of the entire Covid patient population.The mild cases are told to self quarantine at home.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 18, 2020, 02:22:20 AM
Could someone please explain to me why, since "the vast majority " of Covid cases are mild, the US hospitals are "overwhelmed "? You mean all of the mild cases are taking over hospital beds, and if so, why are medical personnel allowing this? There is no mandated institutional quarantine of the entire Covid patient population.The mild cases are told to self quarantine at home.
Good question, but I am afraid I can't explain it. It baffles me too. Currently there are 12 serious/critical cases in USA. Since when is one hospitalised for a mild case of anything? Unless, of course, one has another serious underlying condition, which is the cause of the hospitalisation and subsequent death.
Iran has reported nil serious/critical cases since Saturday and yet the following daily deaths have been recorded and attributed to the virus.
Sun 15/03 113
Mon 16/03 129
Tues 17/03 135
Something
is rotten in the state of Denmark...
USA
ACTIVE CASES
6,302
Currently Infected Patients
6,290 (100%)
in Mild Condition
12 (0%)
Serious or Critical
You know what I think. I think the world has gone fecking mad.
I think we are ruled by idiots.
They closed my office. Nobody is sick. Everybody is having to work from home with a laptop. There is no social interaction. It is driving me effing crazy.
There is no holy water in the church but I do not know 1 person who is sick. What is wrong with my local Bishop and indeed most of the bishops. Why don't any of them have the backbone to tell the authorities to get stuffed.
My Grandad fought in the trenches in Passchendaele and Verdun and Palestine and we are worried about a sodding virus which in all probability will only kill people with already seriously compromised respiratory conditions.
I think this is a kind of mass psychosis. I got clinical depression a few years ago and I thought there were people behind every corner waiting to jump out and scare me. I think the world is currently facing the same thing.
All the kind of things with any possibility of cheering people up (e.g. sporting events, theatre's, cinemas) are being shut down.
I am going to block anybody who endlessly posts figures. It's all bollocks.
And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_of_the_Copybook_Headings
(/rant over)
edit: I am going to unblock Kreuzritter. I blocked him in the past for some reason but on this
topic I find myself agreeing with him so perhaps I misjudged him.
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPlQ6EtArSc[/yt]
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
I think this is a kind of mass psychosis.
As ive gone about my business going to the store or for a walk I perceive the same thing. There is something different in the air, and I don't mean Coronavirus. You can almost sense a mass hypnosis infecting people. Everything from the look in people's faces to their uncompromising trust in whatever the Media is telling them.
Why do I and others seem to be able to see through this BS? I don't know. But more and more I'm starting to feel like the only sane man I know these days.
Clau, post more. Literature over a black tea for me. Der Kreuzritter is correct, but his autistic posting style stabs the intellect.
ABC, that feeling hit me a week or so ago, too. Dr. Phage said I and others were being schizophrenic. Maybe.
Hubby is hoping to get work as healthcare assistant with the recruitment drive. I want some inside information i.e. what patients are in ICU and what for!
If I get a whiff of bs I'll let ye know. He was going to offer to start straight away and I used my wifely veto. No way hose until our veg patch is planted ?
So it'll be April 6th if he is called. Right now I have sniffles, sore ear and in general meh.....not flu though.
One thing for sure is a tsunami recession is coming and food will be in short supply by late summer. Start networking guys, build your contacts, plough your back gardens, grow your veg, get some chickens, buy a fishing rod. God will never leave us.
Already I'm certain,babies have been saved from the slaughter house.
People stuck at home might start reading alternative news and be open to what's really going on. Good priests will lead again, in times of strife people look for leadership.
There's always a silver lining.
One unintended consequence of Coronavirus in India was Chicken Biryani started selling at rs 1 (which is like $0.013) https://www.greattelangaana.com/english/chicken-biryani-at-rs-1/ in some places. It's normally at rs 100, about $1.3. The government had to persaude people to buy it more and eat out more and that it was safe to do so; they even said chicken has much protein and some vitamin b6 and things like that to encourage people, lol. Biryani is more than sufficient for a basic meal. Many packed and bought it home.
Anyway, let's see how things go down. Probably the best thing to do would be to stock up moderately on basic supplies for the immediate future, stay home for the most part, pray, and get used to the new pace of life for a while. We do not know how long this will last. Hopefully, things start improving soon.
Edit: Cases cross 200 K. Deaths cross 8,000 https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ 170 countries (about 85% of all) infected already. "The coronavirus COVID-19 is affecting 170 countries and territories around the world".
First Post (https://www.firstpost.com/health/coronavirus-outbreak-live-updates-covid-19-india-noida-mumbai-bangalore-cases-count-alert-novel-latest-news-today-bird-flu-virus-8161621.html): "Iran reported its single biggest jump in deaths from the new coronavirus on Wednesday as another 147 people died, raising the country's overall death toll to 1,135, AP reported. The nearly 15 percent spike in deaths — amid a total of 17,361 confirmed cases in Iran — marks the biggest 24-hour rise in fatalities since officials first acknowledged cases of the virus in Iran in mid-February." Disease doesn't seem to be slowing down.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/italys-death-toll-jumps-pope-francis-advises-italians-dont-waste-these-difficult-days.html
"Pope Francis has advised Italians to try to make the most of the coronavirus crisis by re-discovering the joy of family, as the country struggles to cope with the most acute outbreak of the virus outside China.
"During these difficult days we can find small, concrete gestures expressing closeness and concreteness towards the people closest to us, a caress for our grandparents, a kiss for our children, for the people we love," Pope Francis told Italy's La Repubblica newspaper in an interview published Wednesday.
"These are important, decisive gestures. If we live these days like this, they won't be wasted."
The Pope told the newspaper that he had asked God to stop the epidemic in Italy, which has taken the lives of 2,503 in Italy, as of Tuesday, up 345 from the previous day."
Just watch the tragic numbers of how highly coronavirus cases are daily increasing in countries that sadly did not take the warnings seriously:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-big-rise-in-uk-covid-19-cases-up-by-676-to-2-626-11959591
The number of confirmed cases of coronavirus in the UK has risen by 676 in the last 24 hours, the biggest daily leap, taking the total to 2,626.
QuoteCould someone please explain to me why, since "the vast majority " of Covid cases are mild, the US hospitals are "overwhelmed "?
Media hype. The prudent move would be to isolate the old and sick. It appears for the rest this might even be milder than the flu. I do expect a lot of old people and emphysema people to end up in ICU, and that could be a problem, but that is not the current situation. Canceling schools was utterly stupid.
In the end, it doesn't matter what SHOULD happen, only what IS happening. And what is happening is catastrophic economic damage and quarantines. Some of the people reading this will lose their jobs.
Note Trump started off telling it like it is, but caught flak from the media. Turns out he was right.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 17, 2020, 05:11:57 PMOh? OH? Really? So is I'm readign thsi correctly, Kreuz was absolutely right? If you'd have tested people last year you would have "found" the "virus"*? Where's my friggin apology, eh? Where's my apology from the guy who spoke about time machines? Of course I was right, because I'm right about the nature of viruses, virus tests and what's going on here. It's quack science. It's phrenology and phlogiston theory and Darwin's ridiculous Origin of Species, built upon hot air, overactive imaginations and simple explain-it-all explanations.
*i.e., found some alleged markers of the alleged virus which cannot show cause of disease.
You sound like you're having an emotional and mental breakdown over this, Kreuzritter.
Maybe you should take a break. The virus is getting the better of you.
All public Masses in my country (UK) suspended by the Bishops.
Quote from: Xavier on March 18, 2020, 10:07:07 AM
Just watch the tragic numbers of how highly coronavirus cases are daily increasing in countries that sadly did not take the warnings seriously:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-big-rise-in-uk-covid-19-cases-up-by-676-to-2-626-11959591
The number of confirmed cases of coronavirus in the UK has risen by 676 in the last 24 hours, the biggest daily leap, taking the total to 2,626.
Everybody is gonna wish they had done nothing in response to the virus. The economic collapse is gonna be more deadly than CV19.
Didn't the Lady tell you that?
Quote from: Innocent Smith on March 18, 2020, 01:03:17 PM
Everybody is gonna wish they had done nothing in response to the virus. The economic collapse is gonna be more deadly than CV19.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9IfHDi-2EA[/yt]
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 17, 2020, 05:11:57 PMOh? OH? Really? So is I'm readign thsi correctly, Kreuz was absolutely right? If you'd have tested people last year you would have "found" the "virus"*? Where's my friggin apology, eh? Where's my apology from the guy who spoke about time machines? Of course I was right, because I'm right about the nature of viruses, virus tests and what's going on here. It's quack science. It's phrenology and phlogiston theory and Darwin's ridiculous Origin of Species, built upon hot air, overactive imaginations and simple explain-it-all explanations.
*i.e., found some alleged markers of the alleged virus which cannot show cause of disease.
You sound like you're having an emotional and mental breakdown over this, Kreuzritter.
Maybe you should take a break. The virus is getting the better of you.
Wouldn't that be the ironies of irony.
"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
I cannot agree more. The reason I say that is that the virus will not reverse within the 2-3 week hysterical lockdowns that are being ordered. And since it will actually "grow" in numbers during this time period (as tests become more available and are completed), at the end of this "short" period, the government will "re-assess" and naturally determine that we need more, and then more, and then more confinements, economic paralysis, and general insanity.
This idiocy has the real, non-hysterical potential to destroy the economy of every nation on earth, since economies are now so interconnected for so many segments, even including niche retail like Etsy, which has a specialized market but with worldwide consumers. Most local retail has been kicked in the kidneys, so they can no longer self-support. Non-local retail will suffer, major, and already are -- and not just giants like airlines and tourism, but car repair shops dependent on overseas parts, etc.
I completely agree with you, clau clau. The "cure" will kill us before the disease does.
One thing people forget: The most dependent employees are the poorest. They live paycheck to paycheck. What will they do when, within the next month (probably) they run out of money? They will resort to crime -- armed theft, unarmed theft, etc.
At this moment there are 125 deaths recorded in the United States, with a population of over 331 million. Would someone who is better at math explain why this is "a crisis" and "an emergency" and requires "wartime measures?" I must be missing something here.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 18, 2020, 02:02:41 PMAt this moment there are 125 deaths recorded in the United States, with a population of over 331 million. Would someone who is better at math explain why this is "a crisis" and "an emergency" and requires "wartime measures?" I must be missing something here.
In short, this new corona virus is extremely contagious and it seems to be deadlier than the normal corona and influenza viruses. Countries won't willingly undergo economic collapse just for the sake of it. The virus, although fortunately not as deadly as stuff like Ebola, is nevertheless a real threat that can present major problems for the healthcare services worldwide if it's not contained. The death rate so far in Italy and Iran, for instance, is not normal.
The draconian measures now being taken in the West are aimed at one thing: to flatten the curve. The sooner we achieve this, the quicker life can go back to normal. In China they tackled it with even more extreme measures. Those can't be implemented in Europe or the United States without major social resistance, though.
By summertime, we'll have a clearer picture of the economic and epidemiological impact of the virus. Until then, there's little one can do besides being prepared, taking care of oneself and one's family and praying.
Quote
I'm a Doctor in Britain. We're Heading Into the Abyss.
LONDON — Ten days ago, I was asked to see a patient. I'm a respiratory specialist in an intensive-care unit at a hospital in London, so it wasn't surprising that the patient needed a ventilator. It seemed fairly typical. But the patient turned out to have the coronavirus — our hospital's first case and one of nearly 2,000 people who have so far tested positive in Britain. I hadn't worn a mask. Soon I developed a cough.
Though I experienced neither fever nor breathlessness, I was told to self-isolate for 14 days. That's where I am now, in self-isolation. And I'm not the only one from my hospital. After just one patient with Covid-19, a quarter of our junior staff are off with coughs and sniffles we would normally work through. A single case of the coronavirus has wreaked havoc in our hospital.
[...]/size]
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/familyhealth/im-a-doctor-in-britain-were-heading-into-the-abyss/ar-BB11mADh?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=iehp
If this thing blows over as another false scare I'm gonna be mad.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 02:15:22 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 18, 2020, 02:02:41 PMAt this moment there are 125 deaths recorded in the United States, with a population of over 331 million. Would someone who is better at math explain why this is "a crisis" and "an emergency" and requires "wartime measures?" I must be missing something here.
In short, this new corona virus is extremely contagious and it seems to be deadlier than the normal corona and influenza viruses. Countries won't willingly undergo economic collapse just for the sake of it. The virus, although fortunately not as deadly as stuff like Ebola, is nevertheless a real threat that can present major problems for the healthcare services worldwide if it's not contained. The death rate so far in Italy and Iran, for instance, is not normal.
The draconian measures now being taken in the West are aimed at one thing: to flatten the curve. The sooner we achieve this, the quicker life can go back to normal. In China they tackled it with even more extreme measures. Those can't be implemented in Europe or the United States without major social resistance, though.
By summertime, we'll have a clearer picture of the economic and epidemiological impact of the virus. Until then, there's little one can do besides being prepared, taking care of oneself and one's family and praying.
I cannot disagree more with your very broad assessment. Summer will be far too late to rescue thousands of businesses. Many have been permanently closed within weeks, and far more will start closing today and next week. Second, the conditions in Italy, which I referred to earlier on this thread, are quite different from what is happening in the States. Please refer to that post.
Finally, as I mentioned up top, the curve will not be flattened for at least 6 months. By six months, hundreds of thousands of businesses will close. Before a year is up, an economic depression, not just recession, is quite likely, which will affect he survivability of millions of people. Economies are important not because or when they provide riches for many or a few, but because most of them, except giant national and international corporations, are survival economies. This is the way people stay alive, not homeless, and fed.
And in 6 months, there will still be no vaccine. The first vaccine in Seattle, effective or not, will not complete its cycle of volunteer trials until next year.
Economic paralysis is actually objectively dangerous to human life because we are no longer an agrarian economy and depend on industrialization to house and feed us.
Now, after keeping everything open, the UK government is planning to lock down London, which is where I live, by the weekend.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/18/london-braces-lockdown-government-prepares-emergency-coronavirus/
Should I go or should I stay?
Or is it a case of - Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide?
Speechless I am.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 18, 2020, 02:31:55 PMEconomic paralysis is actually objectively dangerous to human life because we are no longer an agrarian economy and depend on industrialization to house and feed us.
An economic disaster right near the end of Trump's term? what a coincidence ;)
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 18, 2020, 02:31:55 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 02:15:22 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 18, 2020, 02:02:41 PMAt this moment there are 125 deaths recorded in the United States, with a population of over 331 million. Would someone who is better at math explain why this is "a crisis" and "an emergency" and requires "wartime measures?" I must be missing something here.
In short, this new corona virus is extremely contagious and it seems to be deadlier than the normal corona and influenza viruses. Countries won't willingly undergo economic collapse just for the sake of it. The virus, although fortunately not as deadly as stuff like Ebola, is nevertheless a real threat that can present major problems for the healthcare services worldwide if it's not contained. The death rate so far in Italy and Iran, for instance, is not normal.
The draconian measures now being taken in the West are aimed at one thing: to flatten the curve. The sooner we achieve this, the quicker life can go back to normal. In China they tackled it with even more extreme measures. Those can't be implemented in Europe or the United States without major social resistance, though.
By summertime, we'll have a clearer picture of the economic and epidemiological impact of the virus. Until then, there's little one can do besides being prepared, taking care of oneself and one's family and praying.
I cannot disagree more with your very broad assessment. Summer will be far too late to rescue thousands of businesses. Many have been permanently closed within weeks, and far more will start closing today and next week. Second, the conditions in Italy, which I referred to earlier on this thread, are quite different from what is happening in the States. Please refer to that post.
Finally, as I mentioned up top, the curve will not be flattened for at least 6 months. By six months, hundreds of thousands of businesses will close. Before a year is up, an economic depression, not just recession, is quite likely, which will affect he survivability of millions of people. Economies are important not because or when they provide riches for many or a few, but because most of them, except giant national and international corporations, are survival economies. This is the way people stay alive, not homeless, and fed.
And in 6 months, there will still be no vaccine. The first vaccine in Seattle, effective or not, will not complete its cycle of volunteer trials until next year.
Economic paralysis is actually objectively dangerous to human life because we are no longer an agrarian economy and depend on industrialization to house and feed us.
I'm not suggesting that countries will go on lockdown for 6 months. No country can withstand that. The idea is to be draconian now and control the spread of the virus, unburdening the national healthcare systems, so as to be able to lift the lockdown in one month or two tops. When you asked why this is an emergency when there are only 125 deaths in the US, the reason is precisely to avoid the numbers skyrocketing as they did in Italy or Iran. If you don't do anything, they will skyrocket. It's inevitable.
Countries around the globe aren't doing this just for fun. It's a real threat. It's not the end of the world but there's reason for concern. When I mentioned the clearer picture by summertime, I meant that by then there won't be any lockdowns anymore and the peak of the virus should be over. Only then can we make a better assessment of the whole situation.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 18, 2020, 02:45:36 PM
Now, after keeping everything open, the UK government is planning to lock down London, which is where I live, by the weekend.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/18/london-braces-lockdown-government-prepares-emergency-coronavirus/
Should I go or should I stay?
Or is it a case of - Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide?
Speechless I am.
Large cities are generally not the safest place to be during a crisis.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 02:52:12 PM
I'm not suggesting that countries will go on lockdown for 6 months. No country can withstand that.
And I am telling you that it will be far more than 3 weeks. For example, one governor has already said that schools will continue to be closed for another 3 months, not weeks. Trump said that the crisis conditions will not abate "Until July or August," at least.
Several months from now, the statistics will not be calming any of the knee-jerk media outlets, nor the overly hysterical medical executives in Washington, D.C. That is because at the moment, there are not enough test kits. So those currently suspected/presenting will begin to test positive, and "suddenly" it will look as if more people are getting sick, rather than more people are being
confirmed as sick.
The one thing I do agree with, that the officials are saying, is that hospitals are understaffed and under-equipped for any kind of surge need in the general population. This has been true for quite some time, actually. Part of this is the for-profit nature of medicine, which keeps hospital buildings and their staffs at minimum levels to keep physician and executive salaries high. The health care needs of this country have for a long time outpaced the health care
availability of this country.
However, what I seem to be hearing from the government is that any kind of death is not okay; death itself is unacceptable in the USA. I'll let that one just sit there.
Here are some facts about Italy:
Over 99% of coronavirus patients in Italy who died had other health problemshttps://nypost.com/2020/03/18/over-99-of-coronavirus-patients-in-italy-who-died-had-other-illnesses/
"The new research from the National Institutes of Health released Tuesday evaluated 355 of the country's fatalities and found that only three patients had no prior medical conditions.
Nearly half the COVID-19 victims suffered from at least one of the following conditions: high blood pressure, diabetes or heart disease.
More than 75% reported high blood pressure, while 35% had diabetes and 33% had heart disease, according to the study.
The average age of the victims was 79.5, and the number of deaths in the country surpassed 2,500 this week.
Italy has seen double the rate of coronavirus fatalities compared to the rest of the world.
The country has seen around 8% of patients die from the illness as about 4% of cases worldwide have resulted in death since the outbreak in December, according to the World Health Organization."
(And in the U.S., the death rate is less than 2%.)
2020-03-18 STOP The Insanity (Podcast)
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238529
[yt]https://youtu.be/O2fI1jLkDtw[/yt]
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 18, 2020, 03:10:52 PMAnd I am telling you that it will be far more than 3 weeks. For example, one governor has already said that schools will continue to be closed for another 3 months, not weeks. Trump said that the crisis conditions will not abate "Until July or August," at least.
As I pointed out, real nationwide lockdowns can only be sustained for a month or two. Not 6 months.
The schools can be closed for longer, if deemed necessary, but not businesses and factories. Every government knows that, they're not having a sudden collective death-wish. You can lift the lockdown in a month or so and still keep some social restrictions, as they're doing in Korea and China where the situation is coming under control. The lockdown itself is too draconian to last indefinitely. In principle, you won't have to worry about spending the next 6 months in the basement, so to speak. The purpose here is simply to get things under control as fast as you can. The faster the United States addresses it, the better.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 18, 2020, 03:10:52 PMSeveral months from now, the statistics will not be calming any of the knee-jerk media outlets, nor the overly hysterical medical executives in Washington, D.C. That is because at the moment, there are not enough test kits. So those currently suspected/presenting will begin to test positive, and "suddenly" it will look as if more people are getting sick, rather than more people are being confirmed as sick.
It's impossible to test the whole population and the real number of infected people will always be much higher than the confirmed cases. I agree with you about the media hysteria but that's neither here nor there. The threat of the virus remains regardless of it.
The United States already has the vantage point of knowing how things developped in China, Korea, Iran and now here in Europe. You are roughly two weeks behind Italy, so immediate action is needed to take it under control. You asked why the lockdown when there are so few deaths: this is why. You don't want the numbers to explode and turn a manageable situation into a humanitarian and logistical disaster where you have tens of thousands of people flooding the ER in just a matter of days. The situation can be taken under control in two months or three if the majority of the population acts responsibly and the government takes action. By the way, that's one of the primordial functions of the state: to protect its people.
QuoteHere are some facts about Italy:
Over 99% of coronavirus patients in Italy who died had other health problems
As of today, Italy has had 35,000 cases confirmed and almost 3,000 deaths. It's a worrisome death rate, even considering that they're critical patients. The very same thing can happen in the United States if no action is taken. In America, as of today, you have 7,769 confirmed cases and the number is rising. The people who have other illnesses, and who are thus more likely to get killed by the virus, deserve proper treatment. In order for them to get proper treatment in the hospital, you have to avoid the ER being flooded with other cases. You can't do that by ignoring the problem.
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that . . . there were 60.8 million cases, 274,00 hospitalizations, and 12,469 deaths (0.02% case fatality rate) in the United States due to the virus.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-plan.html
Restrictions will be lasting far longer than a few weeks. It will not be only the healthcare system affected, but the survivability of the population.
Being "careful" on an individual basis will not reduce the length of it because the government will not be content to relinquish control until the curve is flattened, which realistically will be many, many months down the road, for anybody who has a handle on how the economy is affected in ripples. People's lives are already being devastated economically, which will present an entirely new problem alongside the medical situation.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 03:47:28 PM
As of today, Italy has had 35,000 cases confirmed and almost 3,000 deaths. It's a worrisome death rate .....
Except it isn't the death rate, so stop worrying.
The death rate cannot be known unless the total number of infected is known. Cases confirmed means nothing if the majority of those who are infected experience symptoms so mild that they don't bother reporting that they have the illness and so aren't included in the figures.
The death rate can only be ascertained if the total number of infected is known. This needn't involve testing the entire population however, since there are models which can extrapolate from a sample to an entire population to give a rough estimate. But this requires widespread testing of a sizeable sample of people and Italy hasn't even come close to this.
Awkward, have you got somewhere to go that is rural or small town? Any family?
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 18, 2020, 04:21:29 PM
The death rate can only be ascertained if the total number of infected is known. This needn't involve testing the entire population however, since there are models which can extrapolate from a sample to an entire population to give a rough estimate. But this requires widespread testing of a sizeable sample of people and Italy hasn't even come close to this.
First one would require a test that is a) capable of detecting the virus itself and b) establishing the virus as cause of illness. None being used do this.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 18, 2020, 04:21:29 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 03:47:28 PM
As of today, Italy has had 35,000 cases confirmed and almost 3,000 deaths. It's a worrisome death rate .....
Except it isn't the death rate, so stop worrying.
I had already stated that the real number of infected people is much higher. As for the death rate, this is the part you left out:
even considering that they're critical patients. Even taking that into account, it's an abnormally high rate. Like Iran's.
It constitutes a real problem that needs to be addressed. Unburdening the healthcare system is vital. That's what they're trying to do in Italy and Spain. And that's what hopefully they'll try to do in the US.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 02:15:22 PM
Countries won't willingly undergo economic collapse just for the sake of it.
Of course they wouldn't. That's why the "virus" and "pandemic" are a mere pretext for the lockdowns.
This isn't going to create "economic collapse", by the way. It's going to destroy small and medium-sized business, consolidate the positions of giant corporations, strip the common man of wealth and funnel more capital and power into the hands of the few.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 17, 2020, 05:11:57 PMOh? OH? Really? So is I'm readign thsi correctly, Kreuz was absolutely right? If you'd have tested people last year you would have "found" the "virus"*? Where's my friggin apology, eh? Where's my apology from the guy who spoke about time machines? Of course I was right, because I'm right about the nature of viruses, virus tests and what's going on here. It's quack science. It's phrenology and phlogiston theory and Darwin's ridiculous Origin of Species, built upon hot air, overactive imaginations and simple explain-it-all explanations.
*i.e., found some alleged markers of the alleged virus which cannot show cause of disease.
You sound like you're having an emotional and mental breakdown over this, Kreuzritter.
Maybe you should take a break. The virus is getting the better of you.
Ah, yes, deflect from the point that my prediction was correct and entirely in line with my proposition that the markers for "coronavirus" are, like those of "HIV", endogenous and naturally found throughout human populations at all times. But your tiny, insular, blinded mind will never see the truth.
Quote from: Heinrich on March 18, 2020, 01:37:33 PM
Wouldn't that be the ironies of irony.
"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."
That's never going to happen, because there is no infectious disease-causing agent called "coronavirus".
Note also the implication that I'm exalting myself because I dare to insist on the truth of a position that contradicts the received narrative of disease and this pandemic that even the "conspiracy theorists" have in common with the "mainstream". You're nauseating. To the contrary, I'm putting myself out there, also in a non-anonymous capacity, to be ridiculed by people like you. That's not "pride"; it's giving the middle finger to social expectations for the sake of a truth one believes.
One thing I'm glad about: that I'm getting to live through a time in which the established order, through its arms of government, medicine and media, has shown just how evil it is and how far it will go with its plans and big lies, and on the other hand, how absolutely deluded the overwhelming majority of human beings are. It's only opened my eyes even further to what an all-encompassing lie this world is. But, on the bright side, I am pleasantly surprised by just how many people, even some I would never have suspected, are not buying the story. Unfortunately, that doesn't include most "trad Catholics", and I finally see how badly I misjudged this group. The truth is not here.
You're damned right that the gloves are off this time and I'm pulling no punches against the Father of Lies, his minions, and the masses of the hypnotised. My hatred of this evil and ignorance has no bounds. I exist to defy it, even if I can do no more than refuse to accept it's "reality".
Quote from: mikemac on March 14, 2020, 08:00:07 PM
Quote from: Xavier on March 14, 2020, 12:26:53 AM
...
Patrick Buchanan's Article says Coronavirus may end up destroying the new world order: "It may one day be said that the coronavirus delivered the deathblow to the New World Order ... " https://buchanan.org/blog/will-the-coronavirus-kill-the-new-world-order-138281
...
Well Pat Buchanan does have a point though. The corona virus is certainly putting an end to the silly idea of open borders. And if it doesn't curtail global trade (aka globalization) it should. That's two major blows against the New World Order in my books.
Historian and author Dr. Roberto de Mattei agrees with Pat Buchanan. Good essay.
Coronavirus is 'the killer of globalization' and a 'scourge' from God: Roberto de Mattei
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/coronavirus-is-the-killer-of-globalization-and-a-scourge-from-god-roberto-de-mattei
Quote...
In terms of political and social sciences, the scholar explains that the Covid-19 coronavirus pandemic may signal the end of globalization.
...
"The weak point of globalization is interconnection, the talisman word of our time, from the economy to religion," De Mattei explains.
"Pope Francis' Querida Amazonia is a hymn to interconnection. But today the global system is fragile precisely because it is so interconnected," he continues.
...
"Globalization actually destroys space and pulverizes distances: today the key to escaping the epidemic is social distance, the isolation of the individual. The quarantine is diametrically opposed to the "open society" hoped for by George Soros. The conception of man as a relationship, typical of a certain school of philosophical personalism, declines."
De Mattei believes that the pandemic is bringing an end to "the world without borders."
"The master of history is God, not the masters of chaos. The killer of globalization is a global virus called the coronavirus," he declares.
...
And another good argument against globalization.
Coronavirus shows the hazard of relying on foreign nations for essentials
The coronavirus outbreak has given Beijing a new tool of extortion and suppression.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/coronavirus-shows-the-hazard-of-relying-on-foreign-nations-for-essentials
(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/shutterstock/pills_colors_810_500_75_s_c1.jpg)
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 04:35:00 PM
I had already stated that the real number of infected people is much higher. As for the death rate, this is the part you left out: even considering that they're critical patients. Even taking that into account, it's an abnormally high rate. Like Iran's.
And "abnormally high rate" compared to what and in what context?
Compared to the total number of people infected with the coronavirus, which nobody knows?
Or to the number of people who die of flu each year in Italy.
It isn't even a rate, let alone a death rate.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 18, 2020, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 18, 2020, 04:21:29 PM
The death rate can only be ascertained if the total number of infected is known. This needn't involve testing the entire population however, since there are models which can extrapolate from a sample to an entire population to give a rough estimate. But this requires widespread testing of a sizeable sample of people and Italy hasn't even come close to this.
First one would require a test that is a) capable of detecting the virus itself and b) establishing the virus as cause of illness. None being used do this.
Virus or not, there's no death rate. Especially since the overwhelming majority of the Italian deaths were very elderly and had 'underlying health issues'.
Watch out for more scare stories in the media aimed at the young over the coming days. I've noticed a few stories about younger people being susceptible to the 'virus' beginning to appear.
Another batch of satellites being launched into the orbit. They have been sending them out last year and probably the year before. This new technology is being built out for new 5G networks. I wrote about this already and there is an extensive research on 5G and its environmental and health effects.
The call it "the internet of things" and for a reason. Welcome to the new world of matrix. This is a very important issue guys. Pleas do not disregard it.
https://www.space.com/spacex-launches-starlink-5-satellites-misses-rocket-landing.html
Italy 35,000 cases, 3,000 dead. On the good side, the new case rate is off the exponential curve. They'd have to hit 90-100K by Sunday. I think it comes up short (unless they are maxed out on how many tests they can do). The death rate however is taking off, but that's the 10 day lag. Switching to a death model for Italy, we should see 6,000 deaths by Sunday, 22,000 the following Sunday. (double every 4 days).
USA: 9200 cases, 150 dead. USA is still exponential, which predicts 13,000 cases by Sunday, 300 dead. I think we'll exceed that.
QuoteAnd "abnormally high rate" compared to what and in what context?
K. provided us the number of pneumonia cases per year in Italy: 9,000.
So if Italy has 20,000 pneumonia cases in 2 months, that would qualify as "abnormally high". We might breach that in 2 weeks. 475 died today alone.
Quote from: diaduit on March 18, 2020, 04:29:35 PM
Awkward, have you got somewhere to go that is rural or small town? Any family?
Theoretically I could pack a bag and leave tomorrow, and I'm wondering if others are planning to do the same. Is that why they give advance warnings of these lock downs.
But then what? And how long for? A couple of weeks, months, a year? But my life is here and has been for decades. I'm glued to the place. I remember travelling from Dublin to Belfast at the height of the Troubles and being shocked by the military presence everywhere. The train to Belfast was full of tourists from all over the world doing the same thing. I was the only person from the UK mainland.
Part of me is curious to see how far this could go? Perhaps a Belfast style, British army style lockdown, who knows?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 18, 2020, 04:40:46 PMOne thing I'm glad about: that I'm getting to live through a time in which the established order, through its arms of government, medicine and media, has shown just how evil it is and how far it will go with its plans and big lies, and on the other hand, how absolutely deluded the overwhelming majority of human beings are. It's only opened my eyes even further to what an all-encompassing lie this world is. But, on the bright side, I am pleasantly surprised by just how many people, even some I would never have suspected, are not buying the story. Unfortunately, that doesn't include most "trad Catholics", and I finally see how badly I misjudged this group. The truth is not here.
You're damned right that the gloves are off this time and I'm pulling no punches against the Father of Lies, his minions, and the masses of the hypnotised. My hatred of this evil and ignorance has no bounds. I exist to defy it, even if I can do no more than refuse to accept it's "reality".
Yes, I think most of us had realized by now that the
red pill has always been your religion and that your spurious encounter with Jesus has only been able to produce daily contempt for those who are actual Christians.
One nice thing about the locking down of everything.
The silence from the lack of flights on their way to Heathrow. It's dead quiet out there.
Those military trucks driving across Bergamo in the picture shared by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica are carrying coffins to other cities of Lombardy to proceed with cremations.
The city and cemetery morgue in Bergamo can't take the overload.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CQfxmFY/lareppublica.jpg)
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:35:12 PM
2020-03-18 STOP The Insanity (Podcast)
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238529
[yt]https://youtu.be/O2fI1jLkDtw[/yt]
This guy's theory gets blown out of the water if you can catch the corona virus more than once.
Can You Get Coronavirus Twice? How Long Are You Immune After COVID-19?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/03/15/can-you-get-infected-by-coronavirus-twice-how-does-covid-19-immunity-work/#6e3b1cb35c0f
Quote...
Therefore, if you do get exposed to the virus and recover, don't view it as a free pass to start hugging strangers, digging your fingers deep into your nose like you are looking for pocket change, and licking door knobs. Keep doing what everyone else should be doing such as social distancing, washing your hands frequently and thoroughly, keeping your filthy fingers from gravitating towards your gigantic face, and actively disinfecting surfaces, objects, and that enormous BTS statue that you have in your living room. Just because you survived the first infection, doesn't necessarily mean that future exposures and possible infections will end up OK. As you know, sequels don't always have the same endings.
And by the way, for those that agree with the idiot in the video, thinking they are young and strong enough to survive the corona virus and don't give a feck about the elderly, it just so happens that a 21 year old guy from Spain died of the corona virus the other day.
Quote from: mikemac on March 18, 2020, 07:19:41 PMAnd by the way, for those that agree with the idiot in the video, thinking they are young and strong enough to survive the corona virus and don't give a feck about the elderly, it just so happens that a 21 year old guy from Spain died of the corona virus the other day.
Yes. Sadly, Francisco García also had leukaemia which exponentially increased the level of risk that he was exposed to after contracting the virus.
Anyway, even if it were just the elderly that died of this virus that wouldn't change anything about what is morally required of all of us. This is something that we'll have to overcome as a community, not as individuals. The South Koreans set the best example so far.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 07:29:05 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 18, 2020, 07:19:41 PMAnd by the way, for those that agree with the idiot in the video, thinking they are young and strong enough to survive the corona virus and don't give a feck about the elderly, it just so happens that a 21 year old guy from Spain died of the corona virus the other day.
Yes. Sadly, Francisco García also had leukaemia which exponentially increased the level of risk that he was exposed to after contracting the virus.
Anyway, even if it were just the elderly that died of this virus that wouldn't change anything about what is morally required of all of us. This is something that we'll have to overcome as a community, not as individuals. The South Koreans set the best example so far.
Exactly.
They realized that he had leukemia after he died; isn't that how it went? Anyway the young and healthy are not always getting a free pass from this. A simple search shows people as young as 45 years old, or 30 years old, or a teenager or even a newly born infant have died of the corona virus.
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update 39 with critical care specialist Roger Seheult, MD of https://www.MedCram.com
A new model from the peer-reviewed Journal Science predicts that people who had not been diagnosed with COVD-19 were the source of 79% of the reported cases in China... and that 86% of COVID-19 infections. Dr. Seheult also discusses new and limited data on hydroxychloroquine as a possible coronavirus treatment and ionophore for zinc.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AToF8O5T86s[/yt]
Quote from: mikemac on March 18, 2020, 07:45:00 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 07:29:05 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 18, 2020, 07:19:41 PMAnd by the way, for those that agree with the idiot in the video, thinking they are young and strong enough to survive the corona virus and don't give a feck about the elderly, it just so happens that a 21 year old guy from Spain died of the corona virus the other day.
Yes. Sadly, Francisco García also had leukaemia which exponentially increased the level of risk that he was exposed to after contracting the virus.
Anyway, even if it were just the elderly that died of this virus that wouldn't change anything about what is morally required of all of us. This is something that we'll have to overcome as a community, not as individuals. The South Koreans set the best example so far.
Exactly.
They realized that he had leukemia after he died; isn't that how it went? Anyway the young and healthy are not always getting a free pass from this. A simple search shows people as young as 45 years old, or 30 years old, or a teenager or even a newly born infant have died of the corona virus.
No, Francisco found out about the leukaemia when he was admitted to the hospital. They informed him that he had pneumonia and leukaemia. Poor guy. He could have made it if he hadn't cancer, though.
And yes, this virus can kill the young. The WHO has highlighted that fact recently. Although the elderly remain the most relevant risk group, for obvious reasons, the young can also develop severe complications on account of this virus. It varies from person to person.
Tim Pool reported that New York now has to put two people on one ventilator. Also a Navy hospital ship is heading for New York. Note 99% of the patients are probably elderly and/or have underlying conditions.
If Tim's report is correct, expect an increase in panic and more drastic lock downs for New York.
I had my daughter prepped to leave Chicago, which she did. I'm very happy we were prepared. Again, for the vast majority the major threats are panic, shortages, quarantines, and economic upheaval.
If you are late and need advice, check out the prepping thread.
I'm convinced I had the virus at Christmas. I now have ear infection which is clearing up but I've a very sore sternum and a tight feeling in my chest cavity. Lungs perfect though and no aches or pains, slight high temp at times but not feverish. No cough. A little fatigued. I have been taking zinc and some natural antivirals for about 4 weeks now.
Since Monday, I've been spraying colloidal silver in my mouth and taking 2g of vit c powder with some probiotic powder mixed in.
The worst symptom is the sore chest/sternum. Feels like someone did a Mike Tyson punch at this area.
If this is my second round of the virus, I'm not to bad, if it's my first round...,pfffft.
One bonus of covid 19........it shut Greta up :D
Mike's and Vetus' warnings are absolutely spot on. Here's a comparison, for those Americans who think Trump's measures are too strict or disproportionate: Italy's population is about 60 million and it has had 35,000 cases being lax at first and with a moderately strict approach in the later days. US population is 330 million. 5 1/2 times. If there'd been a similar outbreak in the US, it would be beyond 180,000 cases. It's now about 10,000, much much lesser than what it would have been without safety measures. To stay mostly indoors for about a couple of weeks until the next steps can be discerned is not that big a sacrifice; but not having made those basic regulatons may have caused the situation to escalate irreversibly.
In India, most Indians agree with our government's tough approach. We don't even want to think of what may have happened in India without that required and necessary toughness, which was absolutely required and proportionate; it's just we feel citizens could do even more than we are doing to contain it. I don't want to see millions becoming infected and dying.
The UK government also regrets it didn't take stronger action earlier on. Basic measures are sufficient to contain the virus for now; as opposed to a laissez faire approach of just carrying on as normal, because these aren't normal times. The world is at war is a good way to describe it. There would have been 10 times more infections without precautions.
220,000 cases. 9000 deaths. 176 countries. About 88% penetration worldwide. At around 4:15 GMT, on March 19.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
Quote from: diaduit on March 18, 2020, 09:29:19 PM
I'm convinced I had the virus at Christmas. I now have ear infection which is clearing up but I've a very sore sternum and a tight feeling in my chest cavity. Lungs perfect though and no aches or pains, slight high temp at times but not feverish. No cough. A little fatigued. I have been taking zinc and some natural antivirals for about 4 weeks now.
Since Monday, I've been spraying colloidal silver in my mouth and taking 2g of vit c powder with some probiotic powder mixed in.
The worst symptom is the sore chest/sternum. Feels like someone did a Mike Tyson punch at this area.
If this is my second round of the virus, I'm not to bad, if it's my first round...,pfffft.
Try to take about 15g of Vitamin c and drink more colloidal silver. I try to drink 1g of vitamin c every hour to increase absorption. Of course liposomal is best.
Trump said: "This is not a financial crisis, this is just a temporary moment of time that we will overcome together as a nation and as a world."
Economic or financial implications will come later on. Defeating the virus right now is priority 1. Our role is to ensure it doesn't spread to others.
If the virus is contained, people can get back to work once the crisis is over. In one or two months after the outbreak ceased, production would easily rise to pre-crisis levels or even more. Stocks and other things would come back to normal later on. They are falling now, but they will recover all that later. Stock markets should be closed right now, imo.
In the real economy, this advice seems fair: "Just remember that there's no need to buy out the stock at your local grocery store. "Right now there's no indication that food retailers will be unable to meet the demand of consumers," Pike said, and "it's also important to consider the needs of others and not overbuy."
So only purchase what you actually need -- and these items will last you awhile, which is convenient when you're unable to leave your abode." https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/17/health/coronavirus-quarantine-grocery-list-drayer-wellness/index.html
https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/breaking-news-coronavirus-can-also-attack-the-nervous-system,-causing-neurological-conditions-and-even-viral-encephalitis
"Breaking News! Coronavirus Can Also Attack The Nervous System, Causing Neurological Conditions And Even Viral Encephalitis
Source : Coronavirus News Mar 05, 2020 14 days ago
As the new SARS-Cov-2 coronavirus is an extremely new virus that is fast spreading globally and wreaking havoc, there have been no prior verified studies on it and the medical community is only just beginning to discover new facets about it day by day. As the coronavirus itself is also evolving, some of these information becomes absolute and are superseded by new data that is available. Chinese researchers at ground zero are busy working hard as they have to treat patients and also conduct clinical studies to understand more about this new coronavirus.
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thailandmedical.news%2Fuploads%2Feditor%2Ffiles%2Fencephalitis.jpg&hash=ec6f33a62a875b0ed3c6564d6f0c27fbb3e3a9cd)
While most of the past studies have focused on how the coronavirus attacks the respiratory system due the typical symptoms manifested by most patients, new research and studies are demonstrating a disturbing indication that the new coronavirus can also attack the central nervous system in a variety of ways and in some cases cause long term damages or even fatalities due to CNS attacks.
In a non-peer reviewed study published in MedRxiv,
((https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.22.20026500v1.full.pdf)but has been confirmed by so many medical doctors working on ground zero in Wuhan, the study shows that the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus can also attack and damage the nervous system.
The paper was published by Dr Hu Bo, director of the Department of Neurology, Union Hospital Affiliated to Huazhong University of Science and Technology, China showed that thirty percent of patients have neurological manifestations out of a sample of 214 newly diagnosed patients. Among them, there were 88 critically ill patients and 126 non-critically ill patients. The average age of the patient samples was 52.7 years,
More than 30% of patients developed neurological symptoms. The results showed that 78 patients had neurological symptoms, accounting for 36.4% of the total sample. Researchers have divided the "nervous system symptoms" into categories including central nervous system related symptoms such as headache, dizziness, disturbance of consciousness, acute cerebrovascular disease including epilepsy, and peripheral nervous system symptoms such as decreased taste, decreased smell, and appetite.
Past studies on the SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) and MERS (Middle East Respiratory Syndrome) coronaviruses have also demonstrated that they cause nerve and CNS damage, and neurological impairment.
In most cases, it was found that central nervous system damage was the highest. Researchers have pointed out that new coronavirus may invade the central nervous system through blood or retrograde neuronal circuits, causing damage to the central nervous system.
The researchers cautioned that for patients with Covid-19 pneumonia, in addition to respiratory symptoms, doctors should pay close attention to any neurological manifestations.
??
Viral Encephalitis Detected In Ditan Hospital.
Meanwhile over at Ditan Hospital in Beijing, doctors have has clinically confirmed that the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus is able to cause CNS damage when it documented a case of Viral Encephalitis caused by the virus.
On March 4, Beijing Ditan Hospital affiliated to Capital Medical University disclosed that a 56-year-old patient with coronary pneumonia was confirmed by genetic sequencing to have SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus in the cerebrospinal fluid. (http://china.caixin.com/2020-03-04/101523973.html)
The treatment of this patient was presided over by Dr Liu Jingyuan, director of the ICU of Ditan Hospital.
On January 24th, The patient: Dr Sun Yingchun, a professor at Communication University of China, was diagnosed with Covid-19 pneumonia and admitted. He was the 35th patient diagnosed with new coronary pneumonia in Beijing. ??
Dr Liu Jingyuan examination found that the patient had exhibited certain conditions related to CNS damage but could not find anything even with imaging as a CT scan of the patient's head revealed no abnormalities in the skull and normal CSF biochemical tests.
However, diagnostic test on the extracted cerebrospinal fluid of the patient showed the presence of the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus and the patient was diagnosed with Viral Encephalitis and treated accordingly.
Dr Liu Jingyuan reminded the medical staff in the front line of anti-epidemic treatment that when patients exhibit conditions related to CNS Damage and neurological complications, it was critical have to cerebrospinal fluid tested for the coronavirus through nucleic acids tests and genome sequencing so as to ascertain the presence of Viral Encephalitis and have it treated accordingly as this helps reduce mortality rates.
??
China has upgraded its national guidelines of treating coronavirus to include looking out for CNS damage and other neurological conditions and also Viral Encephalitis."??
Wikipedia: "Encephalitis is inflammation of the brain.[5] The severity can be variable with symptoms including headache, fever, confusion, a stiff neck, and vomiting.[1] Complications may include seizures, hallucinations, trouble speaking, memory problems, and problems with hearing.[1] Causes of encephalitis include viruses ..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalitis
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 18, 2020, 04:40:46 PMBut, on the bright side, I am pleasantly surprised by just how many people, even some I would never have suspected, are not buying the story. Unfortunately, that doesn't include most "trad Catholics", and I finally see how badly I misjudged this group. The truth is not here.
Hey I haven't bought it. My first reaction to my friend over the phone was (half jokingly) telling him that I'm going to assume it doesn't exist. Actually, my first reaction was being a bit irritated by how panicked and agitated another Catholic friend was. Honestly it could well be a contagious virus for all I know. I barely know what a "virus" is. I just have a built up distrust of mass media and a disdain for mass hysteria. Save some of your anger for when the thing blows over. You can't wake people up too early.
Quote from: mikemac on March 18, 2020, 04:44:14 PM
Historian and author Dr. Roberto de Mattei agrees with Pat Buchanan. Good essay.
Coronavirus is 'the killer of globalization' and a 'scourge' from God: Roberto de Mattei
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/coronavirus-is-the-killer-of-globalization-and-a-scourge-from-god-roberto-de-mattei
Catholic commentators: won't let a crisis go by without inducing apocalyptic fear in us.
When everyone around us is going mad, it's always comforting to know that God is angry with us as well. :cheeseheadbeer:
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 07:05:47 PM
Those military trucks driving across Bergamo in the picture shared by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica are carrying coffins to other cities of Lombardy to proceed with cremations.
The city and cemetery morgue in Bergamo can't take the overload.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CQfxmFY/lareppublica.jpg)
Thankfully there was a camera there to catch the convoy so we could all participate in the panic parade.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 05:37:06 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 18, 2020, 04:40:46 PMOne thing I'm glad about: that I'm getting to live through a time in which the established order, through its arms of government, medicine and media, has shown just how evil it is and how far it will go with its plans and big lies, and on the other hand, how absolutely deluded the overwhelming majority of human beings are. It's only opened my eyes even further to what an all-encompassing lie this world is. But, on the bright side, I am pleasantly surprised by just how many people, even some I would never have suspected, are not buying the story. Unfortunately, that doesn't include most "trad Catholics", and I finally see how badly I misjudged this group. The truth is not here.
You're damned right that the gloves are off this time and I'm pulling no punches against the Father of Lies, his minions, and the masses of the hypnotised. My hatred of this evil and ignorance has no bounds. I exist to defy it, even if I can do no more than refuse to accept it's "reality".
Yes, I think most of us had realized by now that the red pill has always been your religion and that your spurious encounter with Jesus has only been able to produce daily contempt for those who are actual Christians.
But if he's even half right he has a right to be angry. He shouldn't be throwing out angry accusations at people, but that's no greater an evil than those spreading fear and hysteria around.
Spreading "fear & hysteria" is only wrong if its done knowingly falsely.
The governments of China, Japan, Iran and Italy whom allegedly claim to be dealing with this alleged virus have taken extreme action to protect their people from it. This information alone is enough to be reasonable in assuming something dangerous is afoot and warning about it and taking action against it. It isn't the wolf crying perpetual lying media that matters but the actions taken by serious governments which indicate there is potentially a major threat imminent.
If you are wrong and you catch the virus and pass it along to your elderly family & friends and they catch it, how will you feel?
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 02:42:22 AM
Spreading "fear & hysteria" is only wrong if its done knowingly falsely.
No. It's always evil. The root of fear, hysteria and untruth is evil.
QuoteThe governments of China, Japan, Iran and Italy whom allegedly claim to be dealing with this alleged virus have taken extreme action to protect their people from it. This information alone is enough to be reasonable in assuming something dangerous is afoot and warning about it and taking action against it. It isn't the wolf crying perpetual lying media that matters but the actions taken by serious governments which indicate there is potentially a major threat imminent.
Delusions. Delusions of a human being who sees himself as a child in the playschool run by government. Delusions of a human being who can't see through the patently obvious agenda driving an absurd over-reaction to a molehill of a disease to strip away fundamental human rights.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 05:37:06 PM
Yes, I think most of us had realized by now that the red pill has always been your religion and that your spurious encounter with Jesus has only been able to produce daily contempt for those who are actual Christians.
You're a child of darkness whose god is Satan, and you are indeed contemptuous, for you are not just innocently ignorant but a willing tool of the lie. I know Jesus, not spuriously but really, and nothing said by your forked tongue can change that reality, you small, pathetic, evil creature. Get behind me.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 07:59:56 PM
And yes, this virus can kill the young. The WHO has highlighted that fact recently. Although the elderly remain the most relevant risk group, for obvious reasons, the young can also develop severe complications on account of this virus. It varies from person to person.
No, it can't, not unless the young is, like the elderly, already suffering from serious illnesses, and the WHO has no data, even by its own measures, to support the contrary claim. Not that it has any data in the first place to support the claim that "coronavirus" exists and causes illness and death, being that nobody has genuinely isolated it and shown it to fulfil Koch's germ theory postulates. You have nothing to support your claims other than appeals to authorities of the medical-industrial establishment.
Quote"Breaking News! Coronavirus Can Also Attack The Nervous System, Causing Neurological Conditions And Even Viral Encephalitis
Source : Coronavirus News Mar 05, 2020 14 days ago
As the new SARS-Cov-2 coronavirus is an extremely new virus that is fast spreading globally and wreaking havoc, there have been no prior verified studies on it and the medical community is only just beginning to discover new facets about it day by day.
Translation: they just added another group of illnesses to the "coronavirus" construct because they found some people with encephalitis who tested positive for their "coronavirus" markers. You can't make this up. Either this stinks or it's proof positive that medical researchers are morons who have no grasp on logic and do not understand science.
QuoteAs the coronavirus itself is also evolving,
(https://media.tenor.com/images/3bc65b259f90a1a3e49444c7727cd81a/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 02:42:22 AM
Spreading "fear & hysteria" is only wrong if its done knowingly falsely.
The fact that people are behaving the way they are (e.g. hoarding stuff) shows that fear is being spread. This fear is an evil. How come when terrorist attacks happen what the media wants to show is candle vigils and so on, but in this case it's all crowded hospitals and convoys of death and scary statistics? No public Masses lol. That alone proves that this fear is a great evil. If we go into "lockdown" for months and there aren't hundreds of thousands of deaths proven to be caused by this disease, and the narrative is that we saved ourselves by acting so fearful and locking ourselves away, I'm going to be mighty suspicious.
Quote from: Xavier on March 18, 2020, 10:14:20 PM
The UK government also regrets it didn't take stronger action earlier on.
No it doesn't.
The UK government preferred a light-handed approach until concerted pressure, including from the UN, badgered Boris Johnson into folding and preparing for lockdowns.
We'll see how Boris enforces any lockdowns and how London responds.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 19, 2020, 03:39:09 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 02:42:22 AM
Spreading "fear & hysteria" is only wrong if its done knowingly falsely.
No. It's always evil. The root of fear, hysteria and untruth is evil.
I agree. Since when has fear and hysteria been an acceptable Catholic response to anything - even death?
John,
Who cares what the media says. The media always has and always will be a giant liar. None of us give two flips about what the media says. The argument has always been that serious governments are taking this extremely seriously to their enormous expense. Or is the Communist Chinese Party in cahoots with their mortal enemy the Japanese, or with the Italians? Is the American government with its billions upon billions of intelligence spending, with spies everywhere and tapping into networks all over, somehow being fooled by the Wuhan government that this is all just a coverup for a toxic waste spill? Or has Trump now gone from being the savior of America, the great anti-globalist, to now reveal himself to usher in the NWO through the world's greatest conspiracy?
The contagious virus theory is the only thing that makes any sense that recognizes that four (China, Japan, Iran, Italy) generally unrelated governments are all taking extreme measures to fight what they each individually determine is a threat within their borders. This is also the only thing that well explains the 7 deaths on a cruise ship + tens of others in serious ICU care requiring ventilators.
You all are too focused on your little local part of the world. There are other parts of the world that are totally unrelated to various conspiracies that Westerners obsess over. Why is Singapore doing what its doing? Why is Taiwan? Why did Mongolia close its borders? Why is Bahrain testing the highest % per capita of any country?
The Taiwanese government is a mortal enemy of the Chinese mainland government. Taiwan is the first place to ban travel from all foreigners. Taiwan has extensive business networks in mainland China. What do you think the Taiwanese government, with its direct and massive networks in the mainland, yet hating its government, knows that you don't know? Do you think they care at all about the latest British / American conspiracy du jour? Or is it that they've used their intelligence networks and have determined that this is a great threat to their society? Note that places like Taiwan & Singapore acted months before the West ever did.
No one gives a fig about what the media says. Look at what serious governments are doing (mainland China, HK, Macau, TW, SG, JP, Iran, Bahrain, etc) and they have nothing to do with Western conspiracies.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EGSpreading "fear & hysteria" is only wrong if its done knowingly falsely.
You're right, Davis; but the falsehoods spread by the virus-deniers is grave, because people could die because of it. If one doesn't know what a virus is, now's a good time to learn: "A virus is a small infectious agent that replicates only inside the living cells of an organism. Viruses can infect all types of life forms, from animals and plants to microorganisms, including bacteria and archaea.[1]
Since Dmitri Ivanovsky's 1892 article describing a non-bacterial pathogen infecting tobacco plants, and the discovery of the tobacco mosaic virus by Martinus Beijerinck in 1898,[2] about 5,000 virus species have been described in detail,[3] of the millions of types of viruses in the environment.[4] Viruses are found in almost every ecosystem on Earth and are the most numerous type of biological entity.[5][6] The study of viruses is known as virology, a sub-speciality of microbiology." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus
If one has always believed viruses don't cause deaths, now is a singularly inopportune time to go around promoting it - China didn't quarantine millions of people just to have a laugh for itself. It's because they had a credible belief millions could die if they didn't; and other nations too, Davis, as you noted, took some similar measures to contain its spread. The virus continues to spread and cause death and human suffering. I'm not calling for fear or panic, but I think responsible precautions are imperative. But if someone wants to discount them, go out and become infected, and potentially infect others, what can we do?
While it's true that this doesn't affect the soul, that doesn't mean what affects the body shouldn't be taken with proportionate seriousness either. The Church during plagues has always taken care of the sick and been concenred about people's material health also, not just their spiritual health. I posted that plague earlier, that was conquered in Jesus' Name.
I understand people are skeptical of the mass media. But this is real; numerous reports in numerous countries confirm it.
Nations are taking it seriously because people don't want people to die. I have a question for the naysayers, how many people should die or be infected - I hate to even ask the question - before you will take seriously that the virus is a real threat? 10,000? 100,000?
Quote from: Xavier on March 19, 2020, 05:10:10 AM
You're right, Davis; but the falsehoods spread by the virus-deniers is grave, because people could die because of it.
Lynch the virus-deniers, enemies of the people!
Quote from: Xavier on March 19, 2020, 05:10:10 AM
While it's true that this doesn't affect the soul, that doesn't mean what affects the body shouldn't be taken with proportionate seriousness either. The Church during plagues has always taken care of the sick and been concenred about people's material health also, not just their spiritual health. I posted that plague earlier, that was conquered in Jesus' Name.
Yeah, and the Church did it signing hymns, going to Mass, sending nuns and priests to minister to people. Nowadays Mass is cancelled, hospitals are understaffed because if someone coughs near a nurse she has to isolate herself for a week, and people are probably going to start being arrested for not being sufficiently scared and secluded.
Quote from: Aeternitus on March 19, 2020, 04:54:00 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 19, 2020, 03:39:09 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 02:42:22 AM
Spreading "fear & hysteria" is only wrong if its done knowingly falsely.
No. It's always evil. The root of fear, hysteria and untruth is evil.
I agree. Since when has fear and hysteria been an acceptable Catholic response to anything - even death?
Exactly. Were public Masses banned during the Black Death? They knew enough about infection to impose quarantines. Did it even occur to them to ban the Mass?
Meanwhile, the 'Bishops' of England and Wales have announced no more public Masses from tomorrow, which is hardly surprising since most of them are barely Catholic anyway. But this is affecting churches where the TLM is regularly said and who knows how long the SSPX will hold out for if a complete ban on public gatherings comes into force.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 05:04:13 AM
John,
Who cares what the media says. The media always has and always will be a giant liar. None of us give two flips about what the media says. The argument has always been that serious governments are taking this extremely seriously to their enormous expense. Or is the Communist Chinese Party in cahoots with their mortal enemy the Japanese, or with the Italians? Is the American government with its billions upon billions of intelligence spending, with spies everywhere and tapping into networks all over, somehow being fooled by the Wuhan government that this is all just a coverup for a toxic waste spill? Or has Trump now gone from being the savior of America, the great anti-globalist, to now reveal himself to usher in the NWO through the world's greatest conspiracy?
A person who has pent up anger for years might use a crisis situation to hurt someone and finally act on his emotions. The point is, governments will act according to their personality, their real drives and motives, if given the opportunity. A year ago, thousands of Chinese were protesting in the streets of Wuhan because of the awful air pollution there; now the Chinese government gets to lock down the city for a few months and blame everything on the virus. Italy's government is anti-immigration, but would have received international criticism for closing borders. Guess what, borders are closed. Now we see the real personality of our governments shine through. Over here, Boris Johnson wants us to be "ruthless" in isolating ourselves and not going out to pubs or restaurants. Sounds like the bubonic plague.
Quote from: Xavier on March 19, 2020, 05:10:10 AM
Nations are taking it seriously because people don't want people to die. I have a question for the naysayers, how many people should die or be infected - I hate to even ask the question - before you will take seriously that the virus is a real threat? 10,000? 100,000?
6 million.
Do any of you really wish that you were in Italy right now? How about Iran? China, maybe? Or South Korea? Almost all those nations now wish they had acted faster, not slower; I hope it's not too late for them now. In South Korea, after amazing and humungous efforts to contain the virus, because they started late, we have this latest news, "South Korea posted a jump in new coronavirus cases on Thursday (March 19), reversing days of slowing infections after a new outbreak emerged in a nursing home in the hardest-hit city of Daegu.
The Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC) reported 152 new cases, taking the national tally to 8,565.
The country had recorded fewer than 100 new infections for four days in a row until Wednesday.
Among the new cases, 97 are from Daegu, south-east of Seoul, where the KCDC said at least 74 patients at a nursing home have tested positive for the virus this week." https://www.thestar.com.my/news/regional/2020/03/19/south-korea-reports-rebound-in-new-coronavirus-cases-after-nursing-home-outbreak
This is a good time for people to become aware of what is happening in other countries of the world besides one's own. If one studies the matter fairly, one will see that this is an unprecedented global crisis; and most of the measures being taken are commensurate.
I'm not speaking of private hoarding or other things like that which I already said I oppose. Nor of closing churches nor unnecessary fear. I believe Churches should remain open, Masses should go on; and people should not panic but pray. Here's a Message from God on the Corona-Virus, for those looking for Divine Comfort in these difficult times. "Children, now you are in the midst of the worst of it. I speak, of course, of this pandemic. Continue to pray even though churches are closed. Persevere in prudence. Do not take any unnecessary chances. It is now, more than ever, that you be united in prayer in your hearts. This is your weapon against this disease. This is a tried and true 'vaccine'."
"If you are united in prayer, you will not live in fear as this threat passes. Whole nations need to be encouraged to do this. Prayer will undo Satan's plans that he is pursuing against the health and well-being of the world. Prayer will lead you away from dangerous situations and prudence will reign in your hearts."
"I have always looked only at what is in hearts. This pandemic offers you the opportunity to cleanse your hearts from the material world and build up a spiritual fortress in your hearts. Do not miss this opportunity of grace."
Another measure for those looking for God's Comfort in these times is reading God's Word more often; Psa 91 was mentioned earlier on in this thread, and Colossians 3 was mentioned here. "If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. In these you once walked, when you lived in them. But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its Creator."
Quote from: John Lamb on March 19, 2020, 05:54:56 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 19, 2020, 05:10:10 AM
Nations are taking it seriously because people don't want people to die. I have a question for the naysayers, how many people should die or be infected - I hate to even ask the question - before you will take seriously that the virus is a real threat? 10,000? 100,000?
6 million.
This time we'll get to see what they do with all the bodies.
Quote from: Xavier on March 19, 2020, 05:10:10 AM
...the falsehoods spread by the virus-deniers is grave, because people could die because of it.
The proper term is "virus-sympathizers". And JP Sears could have told you that they want you to die from the virus.
And so the Chinese government blew up their economy and locked down hundreds of millions of people across the country just to get back at some few thousand protesters in Wuhan from years ago? The Chinese government would have disappeared those people ages ago if they wanted to (maybe they already did). That costs them almost nothing and they do it without batting an eyelash. Blowing up their supply chains has cost them countless billions of dollars and risked toppling their power. They locked down hundred of millions, not just irrelevant little Wuhan. When a bottle of shampoo has 20+ SKUs in it and without even one that entire product cannot be made, and those 20 SKUs come from 20 different factories (of which they themselves rely upon other suppliers), shutting this entire supply chain down does not mean one can just "turn it back on" like a light switch when one wants. These networks suffered a great blow that will take many months to return to normal production, and the losses are staggering.
Why has Taiwan banned every non-Taiwanese from even entering their island? Why are Singapore and Hong Kong forcing 14 day quarantine on everyone who crosses the border? Singapore & HK are financial / trading / aviation hubs that thrive on open borders. Being that they are both Chinese and both have extensive networks in the mainland, what do you think they learned through their networks about the extent of the threat that you do not know?
You all are jumping through hoops to do anything but recognize the obvious: there is a highly contagious viral pandemic now. This is not really a big shocker, given as others have already noted, we always have pandemics (flu, common cold).
From reading all of these posts I sense that you all think the protective measures are too much. That is a more reasonable thing to discuss. Imagine a hypothetical in which the virus would only kill one person globally but to prevent the death it would require a year-long lockdown across the globe. Is that cost acceptable? No. Well somewhere between that extreme and another extreme like total global annihilation is some vague area in which reasonable people start to say "yes, this threat is so severe that it is worth the cost."
As for the comment on Mass cancellation being evidence that the "fear & hysteria" (protective measures) are evidence that they (the protective measures) are evil, I disagree. The evil is the virus. Attempting to protect oneself and one's family / friends / society is not evil. If Mass is cancelled for a week because the parish needs to be fumigated due to severe rodent infestation, the fumigation is not the evil, the infestation is the evil. Extrapolate from that (odd) example to the current situation.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 06:15:59 AM
If Mass is cancelled for a week because the parish needs to be fumigated due to severe rodent infestation, the fumigation is not the evil, the infestation is the evil. Extrapolate from that (odd) example to the current situation.
Your (odd) example doesn't work because a cat would sort out a rodent infestation in no time.
Yes, fear and hysteria reign supreme and I watch it happen before my eyes in open-mouthed shock. We have had a supermarket employee stabbed, security guards posted in shops and now the police to patrol the toilet paper aisle in particular. And the frail, disabled and elderly, who it is claimed are the main object of our "protection" in this exercise, are instead the biggest losers in this fear-induced, hysterical fall-out. They are unable to compete with the jostling crowds in supermarkets so miss out on essentials, including medications which are also high on the hoarders list and low in supply. They are too terrified to allow their grandchildren or great grandchildren (the "carriers") visit them, so become even more socially isolated, with just a television/radio and the latest update on the "death" statistics to keep them company and fuel their anxiety. Community services have either closed down or are operating on a much reduced level to incorporate the "social-distancing" principles affecting the services and aids, upon which this vulnerable group rely so heavily. They are terrified, miserable, lonely and suffering, but, hey, at least they won't die from CoV-19. A heart attack from watching the latest "statistics" might take them out instead.
Countless jobs have been lost already. The unemployment rate will skyrocket. People will lose their homes, along with their jobs. Crime will increase. People of all ages and not just the elderly and infirm are impacted by the solutions imposed. If there is a virus (and I find KR's arguments against this much more convincing than flawed statistics), this fall-out on all levels, including economic, should have been factored into any decisions taken and restrictions imposed by anyone concerned for their people as a whole. You can't call something a solution if the collateral damage is catastrophic.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 19, 2020, 06:20:02 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 06:15:59 AM
If Mass is cancelled for a week because the parish needs to be fumigated due to severe rodent infestation, the fumigation is not the evil, the infestation is the evil. Extrapolate from that (odd) example to the current situation.
Your (odd) example doesn't work because a cat would sort out a rodent infestation in no time.
But awkwardcustomer, the government is the cat! And guess who the rodents are? Us!
Somewhere there's a dying Catholic requesting the last rites but who won't get them because the priest's duty to save people from contagion is greater than his duty to save them from hell.
Quote from: Aeternitus on March 19, 2020, 06:22:19 AM
Yes, fear and hysteria reign supreme and I watch it happen before my eyes in open-mouthed shock. We have had a supermarket employee stabbed, security guards posted in shops and now the police to patrol the toilet paper aisle in particular. And the frail, disabled and elderly, who it is claimed are the main object of our "protection" in this exercise, are instead the biggest losers in this fear-induced, hysterical fall-out. They are unable to compete with the jostling crowds in supermarkets so miss out on essentials, including medications which are also high on the hoarders list and low in supply. They are too terrified to allow their grandchildren or great grandchildren (the "carriers") visit them, so become even more socially isolated, with just a television/radio and the latest update on the "death" statistics to keep them company and fuel their anxiety. Community services have either closed down or are operating on a much reduced level to incorporate the "social-distancing" principles affecting the services and aids, upon which this vulnerable group rely so heavily. They are terrified, miserable, lonely and suffering, but, hey, at least they won't die from CoV-19. A heart attack from watching the latest "statistics" might take them out instead.
Countless jobs have been lost already. The unemployment rate will skyrocket. People will lose their homes, along with their jobs. Crime will increase. People of all ages and not just the elderly and infirm are impacted by the solutions imposed. If there is a virus (and I find KR's arguments against this much more convincing than flawed statistics), this fall-out on all levels, including economic, should have been factored into any decisions taken and restrictions imposed by anyone concerned for their people as a whole. You can't call something a solution if the collateral damage is catastrophic.
The hysteria will likely cause more illness than the virus, but the statistics won't be recorded.
I really wish the UK would run as normal. If more people die, at least we didn't become hysterical cowards overnight. And if there's no more deaths in this country than any other, that's proof positive it was a sham. I guess that's why it's important for every country to get with the program lol.
More Words from Heaven giving guidance: "Children, as your nation and the world stand in the shadow of the cross, please understand that the Holy Mother stands with you interceding on your behalf. My Provision is your constant. I am listening to your prayers. The cross of this particular virus is unprecedented. So too, must be your response in trust."
"Remember, I look only at hearts. Some of you have a heavier burden to bear due to the virtual quarantine of most of your nation. My grace never respects a quarantine. It is always a part of your present moment and cannot be challenged by any disease."
"These are the times when you must learn to depend upon My Grace. Pray for the collapse of this virus much sooner than anticipated. Once again, be united in prayer. Spiritual union is far more powerful than physical union. The disease is but a symptom of Satan's desire to capture the world.". And Ephesians 6:10-18+ to read on prayer warfare:
God also often says to all of us to learn to depend much more on His Providence for all of us that provides for our needs; and first pray with great faith and then calmly trust in Him to provide for all our needs, both material and spiritual. If people did that more, they would panic less.
I'm not a fan of panic at all. From what I could see, Trump did not encourage panic; asked everyone to remain calm; but also implemented basic precautionary measures. Some nations have already tried not taking precautions. It hasn't worked out, so they're doing it now.
Coronavirus updates from Germany: https://berlinspectator.com/2020/03/19/coronavirus-in-germany-number-of-infected-rises-by-25-percent-in-one-day-1/
"In Germany, the number of Coronavirus cases has not been rising this rapidly since the crisis began. On Wednesday night, there were 12,327 infected persons, 3,000 more than a day before.
The increase of Coronavirus cases in Germany was alarming on Wednesday, when the number of infected persons suddenly jumped to over 12,000. Twenty-four hours before, it had been at around 9,000. This means the number rose substantially in one day, in spite of all the measures the federal government in Berlin and the federal states have taken so far. At 13:25 hrs. CET, the total number was 13,000."
"Nearly 10 million people in Germany could become infected with coronavirus within the next three months, if strict measures to stem its spread are not implemented, the country's disease control agency warned on Wednesday.
Speaking at a news conference in the capital Berlin, Lothar Wieler , head of the Robert Koch Institute (RKI) said the government's recent measures to limit social contact in public places, closure of all non-essential shops, bars and sport venues was extremely important to stem the spread of coronavirus, also known as COVID-19.
"If we don't succeed in effectively limiting social contact in the coming weeks, it is possible that we will have up to 10 million cases in Germany in the next two to three months," he said, adding that such a development could lead to collapse of the country's healthcare system.
He called on citizens to follow basic hygiene measures, refrain from social gatherings, keep at least 1.5 meters distance from others and stay at home except for the most essential reasons." https://www.aa.com.tr/en/latest-on-coronavirus-outbreak/germany-warned-of-10m-covid-19-cases-in-3-months/1770356
Where do the Chinese Virus Sympathizers get off calling others fearmongers? So far I've seen them argue the following:
-the economy is going to crash because of lockdown
-society is going to end
-the government and corporations are going to take over everything
-there is a global conspiracy with the level of universal control necessary to pull this off
-MORE people will die because of lockdown
-viruses dont exist and you cant trust anything a doctor says
-vetus ordo worships Satan
Among others. That's some seriously scary stuff.
Btw, Holy Mass hasn't completely stopped everywhere. Even semi-public Masses continue in the vatican; with some social distancing. For e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDmxzAUwQlg
For those who want a livestream of 24*7 Eucharistic Adoration, you have many places. You can participate in EA right from your home:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwqcchfu5Hc
Here's last Sunday's Traditional Mass live streamed at the time and online now: We are dispensed from obligation, but you can follow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFfKZaLUMQs
This channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7gYdjjfejL2Im_k2dPZYkA St. John Cantius Church also has Masses livestreamed often.
Quote from: Graham on March 19, 2020, 07:04:03 AMItaly is entering its fourth week of the worst national crisis since World War II with no end in sight.
More than 60 million people are living under an increasingly unbearable lockdown that is growing tighter by the day. The stores that remain open are shuttering earlier and police are patrolling in ever-greater numbers, chasing families out for walks back into their homes and ensuring no one is outside without a valid reason.
Where do the Chinese Virus Sympathizers get off calling others fearmongers? So far I've seen them argue the following:
-the economy is going to crash because of lockdown
-society is going to end
-the government and corporations are going to take over everything
-there is a global conspiracy with the level of universal control necessary to pull this off
-MORE people will die because of lockdown
-viruses dont exist and you cant trust anything a doctor says
-vetus ordo worships Satan
Among others. That's some seriously scary stuff.
Everyone has their coping strategy in times of fear. For some, it's going along with the prevailing wisdom and following the advice of authority. For others, it's making light of the situation and seeing it as far less serious as people are perceiving it. For others, it's thinking of an abstract explanation for the situation that ties it altogether. And so on. I'm sorry if anything I've said has scared or disturbed anyone. I'm making light of the situation. I don't know how bad it is in reality. All I'm certain of is mass fear and social distrust and anxiety is worse than sickness and death. I'd rather die in a peaceful and sane society than live in a panicked and insane one. But that's irrelevant. The point is we need to keep our hearts open to each other and the Holy Spirit and not expect everyone to act the same way. We need to act with love, not fear, and keep our eyes on heaven and on Christ. Remember St Paul who wanted to be with Christ so much he was eager to die, and only wanted to stay alive to help others come to Christ.
QuoteAll I'm certain of is mass fear and social distrust and anxiety is worse than sickness and death. I'd rather die in a peaceful and sane society than live in a panicked and insane one.
John,
Thank you for your openness. I have suspected for awhile now that there is a relationship between British culture and the anti-virus position. Excluding Graham & MaximGun (who are both British, I think), the rest of our British friends here are vehemently against any action being taken. Your comment I think sums it up and it fits perfectly with orderly British culture and stiff upper lips, that sort of thing, hence extreme repulsion at any break of that order.
Do you or any other of your compatriots think there is any connection, or am I wildly off?
Quote from: Xavier on March 19, 2020, 06:50:59 AM
Coronavirus updates from Germany: https://berlinspectator.com/2020/03/19/coronavirus-in-germany-number-of-infected-rises-by-25-percent-in-one-day-1/
...... "Nearly 10 million people in Germany could become infected with coronavirus within the next three months, if strict measures to stem its spread are not implemented, the country's disease control agency warned on Wednesday.
...... "If we don't succeed in effectively limiting social contact in the coming weeks, it is possible that we will have up to 10 million cases in Germany in the next two to three months," he said, adding that such a development could lead to collapse of the country's healthcare system......
Fear inducing bullying.
Do as we say or you're going to die.
Oh no, I thought Graham was Canadian : (
I may very well be wrong. This is just what I've gleaned from disparate posts over the years.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 07:24:25 AM
QuoteAll I'm certain of is mass fear and social distrust and anxiety is worse than sickness and death. I'd rather die in a peaceful and sane society than live in a panicked and insane one.
John,
Thank you for your openness. I have suspected for awhile now that there is a relationship between British culture and the anti-virus position. Excluding Graham & MaximGun (who are both British, I think), the rest of our British friends here are vehemently against any action being taken. Your comment I think sums it up and it fits perfectly with orderly British culture and stiff upper lips, that sort of thing, hence extreme repulsion at any break of that order.
Do you or any other of your compatriots think there is any connection, or am I wildly off?
Yes it's part of British culture. At the shop the man in the queue was making fun of it calling it ridiculous. The women at the till were making light at the fact that now customers have to stand several feet away while they do the pricing. There's still fear though.
Quote from: Graham on March 19, 2020, 07:04:03 AM
Where do the Chinese Virus Sympathizers get off calling others fearmongers? So far I've seen them argue the following:
-the economy is going to crash because of lockdown
-society is going to end
-the government and corporations are going to take over everything
-there is a global conspiracy with the level of universal control necessary to pull this off
-MORE people will die because of lockdown
-viruses dont exist and you cant trust anything a doctor says
-vetus ordo worships Satan
Among others. That's some seriously scary stuff.
Life has been too easy lately. I'm thrilled there might be a chance to offer this generation of kids, "a genuinely deprived childhood."
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/1999/apr/28/familyandrelationships.features102
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 07:31:38 AM
I may very well be wrong. This is just what I've gleaned from disparate posts over the years.
Or you may be right. I was thinking something similar when the UK government was holding back from taking any significant action and pursuing its 'leave everything open' policy. But then there came a chorus of disapproval from the UN, the EU, some experts at Harvard, and others, which caused Boris Johnson to backtrack.
I'm not so sure if the 'stiff upper lip' is a factor here. Perhaps it's more of a desire to do the minimum necessary to achieve the appearance of action, combined with an ever present impulse to make a joke of everything.
Let's see how seriously people take a lockdown, and how seriously it's imposed.
Looking at the data for Italy.
Before the Wuhan virus, Italy had about 1,750 deaths per day.
Italy's natural population growth rate was negative -580 per day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy
Year Population Births Deaths Natural change birth rate death rate growth rate Fertility
2019 60,317 000 435,000 647,000 -212,000 7.2 10.7 -3.5 1.29
It's population is the second oldest in the world, after Japan.
This has been mentioned in news stories in the context of why the death rate for the virus is so much higher in Italy, but it has not been mentioned in the context of why Italy was already dying prior to the Wuhan virus.
So the question is, "Are we seeing the gross number of deaths increasing by 200 - 300 per day, as reported by the media?" "Is the daily number of deaths from all causes in Italy over 2,000 currently?"
I'm not sure how to get those numbers to check.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 19, 2020, 07:48:01 AM
But then there came a chorus of disapproval from the UN, the EU, some experts at Harvard, and others, which caused Boris Johnson to backtrack.
The international community and the people (via Internet and media) have already come to a consensus, so he's constrained to act one way if he's to have any hope of not being universally vilified.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 19, 2020, 07:35:45 AM
Yes it's part of British culture. At the shop the man in the queue was making fun of it calling it ridiculous. The women at the till were making light at the fact that now customers have to stand several feet away while they do the pricing. There's still fear though.
I've been to three local shops this morning and it was the same - people taking the situation lightly and being even more polite than usual.
There is fear, but also confusion, people looking bemused and asking each other what's going on.
The local chemist charged an elderly lady £9.99 for a disposable face mask and quoted £19.99 for a respirator mask.
The following 2 things can be true at once. Don't fall into linear thinking:
1. Wuhan virus is real, contagious, and threatening to old people. However for the vast majority of people, it is relatively mild.
2. The media is hyping the crap out of it, exaggerating the medical threat for clicks and to smear Trump, causing an unnecessary panic.
So even though the medical threat from this is very low, the economic damage is going to be extreme (already is).
Quote from: queen.saints on March 19, 2020, 07:28:43 AM
Oh no, I thought Graham was Canadian : (
What's the difference?
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 05:04:13 AM
The contagious virus theory is the only thing that makes any sense that recognizes that four (China, Japan, Iran, Italy) generally unrelated governments are all taking extreme measures to fight what they each individually determine is a threat within their borders.
Apparently you can't tell the difference between belief in a "contagious virus theory" and its truth.
QuoteThis is also the only thing that well explains the 7 deaths on a cruise ship + tens of others in serious ICU care requiring ventilators.
"Nothing can explain reality except muh viral theory". Lies.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 07:05:47 PM
Those military trucks driving across Bergamo in the picture shared by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica are carrying coffins to other cities of Lombardy to proceed with cremations.
Those military trucks look very ominous, but if the data I posted above from Wikipedia are correct, then the number of deaths in Italy, even in a current worst-case scenario, has increased from about 1,750 per day to about 2,000 per day. That is a ratio of 8 to 7, within the range of statistical variation.
It should hardly put a strain on the casket companies such that the military needs to get involved.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 19, 2020, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 19, 2020, 07:48:01 AM
But then there came a chorus of disapproval from the UN, the EU, some experts at Harvard, and others, which caused Boris Johnson to backtrack.
The international community and the people (via Internet and media) have already come to a consensus, so he's constrained to act one way if he's to have any hope of not being universally vilified.
Apparently no economists were consulted in forming this consensus, just out-of-touch academics in lab coats.
Quote from: Maximilian on March 19, 2020, 07:50:05 AM
Looking at the data for Italy.
Before the Wuhan virus, Italy had about 1,750 deaths per day.
Italy's natural population growth rate was negative -580 per day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy
Year Population Births Deaths Natural change birth rate death rate growth rate Fertility
2019 60,317 000 435,000 647,000 -212,000 7.2 10.7 -3.5 1.29
It's population is the second oldest in the world, after Japan.
This has been mentioned in news stories in the context of why the death rate for the virus is so much higher in Italy, but it has not been mentioned in the context of why Italy was already dying prior to the Wuhan virus.
So the question is, "Are we seeing the gross number of deaths increasing by 200 - 300 per day, as reported by the media?" "Is the daily number of deaths from all causes in Italy over 2,000 currently?"
I'm not sure how to get those numbers to check.
This is exactly what I pointed out earlier in response tot he claim that bodies were piling up and morgues overflowing.
QuoteThose military trucks look very ominous, but if the data I posted above from Wikipedia are correct, then the number of deaths in Italy, even in a current worst-case scenario, has increased from about 1,750 per day to about 2,000 per day. That is a ratio of 8 to 7, within the range of statistical variation.
It should hardly put a strain on the casket companies such that the military needs to get involved.
1. Increasing demand by 250 per day will put a strain on production.
2. Military trucks lining up like that is not normal.
3. The increase in deaths is currently regional. Seeing such a spike in that region is indeed unusual.
People are going to hate this but...what if this is a Deep State exercise to bring down the Trump Administration?
Awkward Customer, here's the earlier portion again of the article from Berlin Spectator: "Coronavirus updates from Germany: https://berlinspectator.com/2020/03/19/coronavirus-in-germany-number-of-infected-rises-by-25-percent-in-one-day-1/
"In Germany, the number of Coronavirus cases has not been rising this rapidly since the crisis began. On Wednesday night, there were 12,327 infected persons, 3,000 more than a day before.
The increase of Coronavirus cases in Germany was alarming on Wednesday, when the number of infected persons suddenly jumped to over 12,000. Twenty-four hours before, it had been at around 9,000. This means the number rose substantially in one day, in spite of all the measures the federal government in Berlin and the federal states have taken so far. At 13:25 hrs. CET, the total number was 13,000."
If it keeps increasing at 3000 a day (and it shows exponential growth so it'll be more than that), simple maths tells us it'll exceed more than 1 million in a year. Are you prepared for that?
I don't know the motivation behind those who deny small pox and chicken pox, but I'm guessing it is due to an anti-vax mindset. Follow closely, because I'm your target audience that you are trying to convince.
I quit getting a flu shot due to anti-vax arguments. The reasonable arguments that convinced me was that there is a risk of over-stimulation of your immune system, which I believe is called a cytokine storm, and also that the "boost" adjuncts they put in the vaccine are not good for you. Those were convincing arguments, and I quit getting the flu vaccine.
Denying that small pox is a disease or chicken pox, calling it your body's way to naturally cleanse, makes you look like whack jobs. You are doing considerable damage to the anti-vax campaign.
Remember, I'm your target audience. I'm open minded and actually was convinced by them in the past.
QuotePeople are going to hate this but...what if this is a Deep State exercise to bring down the Trump Administration?
It might be true. If you follow Q, then you were reading about Deep State working with China years ago.
China was going to blow sky high because of their commie economy and Trump bringing manufacturing back to the States. Even a few months ago we were discussing the coming collapse of China. If you remember, I posted a Kyle Bass interview on that topic.
So China infects people with a relatively mild virus, "takes the hit" to the economy, while blaming Trump for it. The (((Deep State))) instructs their owned media to go after Trump.
Cui bono?
However be mindful of Occam. Dumb arse commies are investigating vaccines for a virus common to their region, and let it get out. The Deep State "never let's a crisis go to waste" and goes after Trump over it. This is the more likely scenario, but I'm keeping an open mind. If Q is legit, a lot of the Deep State was in panic mode because they were busted.
I never got vaccines because I didn't feel like. Then one finds out they are manufactured Frankensteins, i.e. aborted cells, which is truly revolting and unarguably heinous. And what James said, even though I did not know those specifics. Vaccine? Nein, danke.
If I recall right, some people were saying the virus is a bio-weapon. If it is a weapon, wouldn't they want us to not know about it and not react to it? So by reacting quickly and limiting deaths, we are doing the opposite of what they want.
Trump has said the world is at war with an invisible enemy, and so we fight against the virus as one would do in a time of war. The virus is the enemy. That's it. If the virus is defeated, the war ends and humanity wins. If not, it goes on.
QuoteIf I recall right, some people were saying the virus is a bio-weapon.
You don't use a virus as a bio weapon. You use modified anthrax. You deliver it with spores, and it is fragile. So the effect is localized to the target. Viruses mutate. Developing a highly infectious, high mortality virus is suicide.
https://nonvenipacem.com/2020/03/18/wuhan-we-have-a-problem-this-does-not-compute/
Quote"Wuhan, we have a problem, this does not compute"
Posted on March 18, 2020
A. It is claimed that Coronavirus carriers are both asymptomatic and contagious for the first two to four weeks after contraction; there is no way to know you have it. In addition, most people who do feel sick have such mild symptoms, it doesn't even occur to them that it could be "flu." So you need to stay inside and stop killing people. This is the rationale for the lock downs.
B. Wuhan Province has 19 million people packed on top of each other, each of them smoking five packs a day, plus inhaling the pervasive opaque smog (okay, translucent on a good day, I'll give you that).
C. China stopped Coronavirus at 80,000 infected and 3200 dead. Think they are lying? Go ahead and quadruple those numbers. What do we get... 320K infected across a population of 19MM equals an infection rate of 0.0168... even though all the carriers were walking around (allegedly) spreading the disease for 2-4 weeks BEFORE ANYONE ON THE PLANET KNEW THE VIRUS EXISTED. No controls whatsoever, 0.0168 infection rate, 4% "Death rate."
If B and C are true, this virus is mild, not very infectious, and not very deadly. And if B and C are true, A cannot also be true.
Yes, there are outliers, some younger healthy people who have come down with severe symptoms. I personally know of someone in Connecticut, two degrees of separation, who has been on a ventilator for the past week. He went from mild to near death in a 12 hour span. He is recovering, and went off the ventilator this morning. There are always outliers.
Meanwhile, Italy is the current darling because their numbers are "spiking," now 32K infected and 3200 dead. We can't calculate the infectious rate yet, because the number of cases is still growing, although it has now started to slow. Let's say the number infected quadruples; 128K in a population of 60MM = 0.00213 infection rate, which is 87% lower than in Wuhan.
Point of comparison: 2009 H1N1 "Swine flu" infected 60MM Americans, fully 20% of the population. Do you even remember it? https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html
But why is the "death rate" so much higher in Italy? Perhaps we should be asking if we really know what they are even dying from, because nearly every one of these deaths could have multiple causes, because 99.2% of those people were already sick.
Also, median age of infected is 63 and median age of deaths is 81.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/99-25-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says/ar-BB11mr4X
Italy has the second oldest population in the world. We have a contagion that kills old people who were already sick, half of whom already had at least three other serious illnesses. Isn't this what the regular flu does every year, but in much greater numbers? Is it too much to ask for a little more information before we rend the entire fabric of Western Civilization over the threat of a mild cold?
What I am missing? Did China tell us it was an accidental release of a bioweapon, sorry about that, but watch out? It seems clear to me that if the actions of the past week in the U.S. are indeed warranted, then there is much more to the story than we are being told. How did all the sports leagues and the NCAA know fully a week ago that they needed to cancel everything? How did the airlines know they needed to ground 90% of their long-haul fleet until July, and take that decision in a matter of hours? Why did MGM and Wynn shut down Vegas like a light switch "until further notice?" What were they each told so that they would, literally overnight, unilaterally yet in unison, destroy their product for the sake of the greater good? Where are the facts? There must be some good reason to push tens of millions out of work, wreak havoc on the economy, tank the stock market, bankrupt the airlines, hotels, etc.
Quote from: james03 on March 19, 2020, 08:34:38 AM
QuoteIf I recall right, some people were saying the virus is a bio-weapon.
You don't use a virus as a bio weapon. You use modified anthrax. You deliver it with spores, and it is fragile. So the effect is localized to the target. Viruses mutate. Developing a highly infectious, high mortality virus is suicide.
But if the powers that be have the vaccine, then what is to fear for them? They have seamlessly wiped out their enemies. That is why I hold to the Israeli connection in all of this.
Quote from: Heinrich on March 19, 2020, 08:40:51 AM
Quote from: james03 on March 19, 2020, 08:34:38 AM
QuoteIf I recall right, some people were saying the virus is a bio-weapon.
You don't use a virus as a bio weapon. You use modified anthrax. You deliver it with spores, and it is fragile. So the effect is localized to the target. Viruses mutate. Developing a highly infectious, high mortality virus is suicide.
But if the powers that be have the vaccine, then what is to fear for them? They have seamlessly wiped out their enemies. That is why I hold to the Israeli connection in all of this.
Especially since Iran is hit hard while India is barely touched. I smell a rat.
https://fromrome.info/2020/03/18/governmental-reaction-to-corona-hype-will-soon-cause-rioting-in-every-major-city-of-the-globe/
QuoteGovernmental reaction to Corona Hype will soon cause rioting in every major city of the globe
March 18, 2020 From Rome Editor
by Br. Alexis Bugnolo
The idiots.
Don't they understand anything?
They are closing restaurants and bars and insisting that everyone go to their local supermarket where they will surely be infected by using the carriages and shopping carts and baskets which are touched by everyone!
The are herding everyone to the same few points of sale, as if they WANT to increase infections rates!
They are forcing everyone, who does not live on a farm, to obtain their food from only one portion of the food industry.
They are banning work which is "not essential", and they decide what is not essential!
These actions will cause a collapse of the economy, food shortages and eventually food riots.
The Case at Rome
I can see in happening here at Rome. Carrafour, a national supermarket chain, which has some stores which are open 24/7 — that is 24 hours a day, 7 days each week — has closed these stores from midnight to 7:30 am each day. The decision was made last week.
But today, there is a new announcement. These stores will not open until 8:30 A. M., as of this Sunday.
When you wait in line to enter — sometimes the wait is as much as 20 minutes — you find that there is nothing to buy: no bread, no meat, except the most expensive cuts. There are few or no eggs. Your shopping expenses have risen 100%. And still the store cannot keep their shelves stocked.
The Case of Colombia
The panic is already causing credit issues in some countries. A Petition signed by nearly 300,000 citizens of Colombia asks Banks in that country to ameliorate their relationship with creditors and account holders. Their online petition, in Spanish, at Change.org is eloquent. Here is an English translation:
These are unique moments in our history when many people will be unemployed and many entrepreneurs in debt will be paying interest to banks while their businesses stop receiving income.
At these times money cannot be above life, health and people. That is why it is urgent that the Government and the Banks implement economic measures so that this pandemic does not cause serious problems for the Colombian economy.
Freezing interest while we manage to stop the Coronavirus is a very necessary measure so that those of us who pay loans and mortgages do not go bankrupt. It is urgent that in this unique crisis for our world the Banks finally stop thinking about making profits and commit themselves to society.
How do banks want to be remembered after this crisis? As companies that prefer money for life or as unique companies that bet on everything to overcome this pandemic together.
A Diabolically engineered response
This crisis is following the same pattern of the events in the Catholic Church in Feb. 2013: Fake News, Attacks on anyone who opposes the Narrative, which cannot be questioned and which becomes the new Reality, and above all mindless subservience to the Big Lie even to the point of entirely destroying the institutions over which you are placed (Catholic Church, Order of Malta, Religious Orders, Institutes, Dioceses).
The leaders of nations are all following the fake new and the hype and are refusing to ask the most basic statistical questions about the allegations of the Main Stream Media about mortality rates. 3.4% in Hospitals has nothing whatsoever to do with the mortality rates in the general population.
But they won't do this.
They are preferring to starve people to death and cause riots in cities throughout the world, instead of speaking to anyone with the most basic training in statistical analysis. The Bishops are following suit and basically ending the Catholic religion, diocese by diocese.
All of this serves the Globalist agenda of imprisoning us and enslaving us and making us serve men rather than God. It is completely demonic.
[yt]https://youtu.be/6Af6b_wyiwI[/yt]
+
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/globalists-hosted-coronavirus-pandemic-simulation-weeks-before-first-instances-of-covid-19
Quote from: Maximilian on March 19, 2020, 07:50:05 AM
Looking at the data for Italy.
Before the Wuhan virus, Italy had about 1,750 deaths per day.
Italy's natural population growth rate was negative -580 per day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy
Year Population Births Deaths Natural change birth rate death rate growth rate Fertility
2019 60,317 000 435,000 647,000 -212,000 7.2 10.7 -3.5 1.29
It's population is the second oldest in the world, after Japan.
This has been mentioned in news stories in the context of why the death rate for the virus is so much higher in Italy, but it has not been mentioned in the context of why Italy was already dying prior to the Wuhan virus.
So the question is, "Are we seeing the gross number of deaths increasing by 200 - 300 per day, as reported by the media?" "Is the daily number of deaths from all causes in Italy over 2,000 currently?"
I'm not sure how to get those numbers to check.
This is question I would like to see answered. Then we will know if the virus threat is as serious as we think it is. So far in my local hospital (Mullingar is one and it had cases but its in the east of the country, Portiuncla is another but its on the west side of the Shannon, approx. an hour and a half driving distance) , the west hospital, not one virus patient, one suspected case that came back negative. No ICU patients. The hospital has never been as quiet. Dad went in last night due to a fall, they actually kept him in , instead of putting on a band aid and kicking him out the door.
Again, Ireland is too small to fiddle numbers, so far our infection rate is increasing- expected but our fatalities are not. And we have had open borders until last weekend. The fireball should have been here by now!!
That being said, I DO NOT apologise for doing a stock pile a month ago, I DO NOT apologise for taking precautions and I DO NOT apologise for asking others to do the same. I have a duty to my family to ensure to the best of my ability that they have the basics. The writing was on the wall early February and everybody had their chance to prepare. The mass population think that food is a right and the gov will act in their best interests. Do me a favour.
The UK have been killing off their elderly for decades and opinion pieces appeared in the newspapers last week that the elderly should be left to die if the get the virus, eugenics is in your physcy so its not the stiff upper lip, its that the elderly are fodder to save the economy. They care more about their dogs than they do about their elderly or unborn. Sorry guys, that obviously does not apply to decent English Catholics but in fairness your country does have a culture of death there.
QuoteBut if the powers that be have the vaccine, then what is to fear for them?
Like I said, I'm keeping an open mind. However viruses mutate. This is why they put out a new flu vaccine every year. So they might have a vaccine that works, but next year they end up dead.
But if they are some sort of whack job molloch worshipers, sure.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 19, 2020, 09:04:21 AM
[yt]https://youtu.be/6Af6b_wyiwI[/yt]
+
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/globalists-hosted-coronavirus-pandemic-simulation-weeks-before-first-instances-of-covid-19
I wrote about this Event 201 already. Bill gates als works on a program called ID2020 which is all about digital biometrics, microchip et.
Quote from: james03 on March 19, 2020, 08:11:36 AM
1. Increasing demand by 250 per day will put a strain on production.
2. Military trucks lining up like that is not normal.
3. The increase in deaths is currently regional. Seeing such a spike in that region is indeed unusual.
1. Yes, a small strain, not a national emergency.
2. Similar lines of military trucks are seen in my region one weekend per month for National Guard.
3. Yes, the deaths are concentrated, which might strain one region more than another.
Here's an interesting comment found under the above video posted by John Lamb.
QuoteWuhan has level 4 bio lab that experiments on live deadly viruses and makes them more deadly and patents them. You find out Bill Gates has been funding many of the bio labs in China. Senator Mr. Cotton finds out the virus spreading went into the market in Wuhan. It didn't come from it. Researchers then show that the virus is patented and altered strain of Corona-virus.Bill Gates leaves Microsoft and all others to just spread philanthropy on eugenics, vaccinations without consent that also can cause infertility, and deadly viruses and diseases right after the Virus is released.Bought and paid for mass media spread misinformation that the virus came from bats, when it clearly shows it didn't. World leaders close down their countries. Looks like the elite have a lot more control then all of you thought they had. ;/
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/us-coronavirus-cases-surpass-10000-doubling-in-two-days.html
- The number of confirmed COVID-19 cases surpassed 10,000 in the United States on Thursday, doubling over two days as states ramp up testing and the new coronavirus sweeps across the country.
- New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced Thursday morning 1,769 new confirmed cases across the state, pushing the U.S. total over 10,000.
- On March 1, there were roughly 100 confirmed cases of the rapidly spreading virus in the U.S.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/03/gary-d-barnett/the-only-pandemic-in-america-is-that-of-unbridled-fear-and-a-total-lack-of-intelligent-thought/
QuoteThe Only Pandemic in America Is That of Unbridled Fear and a Total Lack of Intelligent Thought
By Gary D. Barnett
March 19, 2020
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." ~ Frank Herbert,
Can the common flu cause people in America and worldwide to lose their minds, and lose all ability to think? Apparently, that is the case, as Americans have gone insane over a new monster created out of thin air called coronavirus. I have anticipated a scenario such as this, and written about it for the past decade or more, but the response by the people of this country is more ridiculous than even I could have imagined. It is the most pathetic sight I have seen in my life.
Without any initial testing, without any proof, without any certainty as to what this new fake threat to all mankind actually is, the world is now in lockdown, and therefore very easy to control. A better plan for the globalists could not have been imagined, as the sheep get into line for sheering without any resistance or question. I have watched this take place, and it was structured incrementally, all along testing the gullibility and fear of the populace, and as it progressed, it became obvious to those perpetrating this lie that taking over the entire country was going to be a cakewalk.
What is happening now is exactly as Bill Gates previewed it in his idiocy called Event 201, which seems to have been the initial test and propaganda piece set in place to start this engine. This was no coincidence, regardless of what the mainstream media and globalists' claim, but was an active exercise for what was to come. And yes, this is real conspiracy, not "conspiracy theory."
I will not relent in my efforts to expose the fact that the U.S. economy has been decimated due to spending, debt, and money creation for many years. Considering the situation in 2008, when all markets should have failed, the current economic picture is not only far worse, but has reached the pinnacle of disaster. This economy cannot be saved by money printing, QE, or sending checks out to those that have been forcibly relieved of their jobs by government fiat. I firmly believe that a major factor in why this so-called pandemic was created is to shift blame for the impending economic collapse on this virus, and hide the fact that the Fed and central banks around the world completely destroyed the economy. Had the markets and economy been allowed to fail without any fake pandemic, the government and banking system would have been exposed for the criminal thieves they are. This could not be allowed to happen by the ruling elites. Hence, the flu will kill us all!
As I wrote yesterday here:
"It is my belief that the regular flu is being used as a cover for this fake virus, and will serve to hide fault of a state-created economic collapse. In the process, all will become slaves to the state, and this is not a temporary tyranny, as it will last long after this current non-risk is over. Today, Trump and his entourage of idiots stood before the cameras and said now we can do this next spring to help stop the flu! That is basically an announcement that these measures can be used for any excuse deemed "necessary" by the ruling class. They are actually preparing the sheep for ongoing martial law."
Coronavirus, according to Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg, is a part of all viruses, and 8% to 15% of viruses are coronavirus, so that will show up in testing. This is especially the case when testing the already sick and dying, the old and infirmed, and this kind of testing would be far different than random population tests. In other words, if testing is set up to test sick people, up to 15% will show coronavirus. It is a natural part of flu, and will always show up, so it would be easy to use to fool the dumbed-down and dependent herd. They are easily frightened, and expect government to take care of them from cradle to grave, so this test has been successful for those intending to take control of populations around the world.
Today, we all face horrendous consequences of this staged pandemic. The economic collapse alone will devastate much of the population. This will cause unheard of disaster, and will bankrupt many around the country. This will be life-changing for all Americans, and will change forever the landscape of what is falsely considered a "free" country. Voluntary lockdowns will quickly become mandatory lockdowns, which requires martial law and certainly medical martial law. Police will patrol not for real crime, but to force all to stay in a home prison. National guard units have been deployed in many states already, and that will continue to expand, and then the military will take to the streets to enforce government mandates once full martial law is implemented. In cities, gun sweeps will begin soon, as many areas have already banned gun and ammunition sales.
One of the saddest and most pathetic behaviors that have emerged in this chaos is that most all citizens are accepting everything they are fed, are monitoring their neighbors and anyone showing signs of dissent, and reporting them to authorities. They are helping to enslave themselves without any concept of the stupidity of their actions.
Get prepared for total chaos, economic destruction, martial law, forced vaccinations, permanent job loss, lockdowns, panic, riots, and state violence against dissenters and regular citizens that has never been seen in this country before now. Isolation will be universal, and many more will die from these tyrannical measures than any flu could ever cause.
The governing bodies are calling this a war, and they are correct, but this war is an aggressive war against Americans, not against any virus or outside foreign threat. The enemy now is us, and the aggressor forces will include full military power, with the sole objective of total control. The only solution available is mass disobedience and mass dissent. Numbers matter, and without numbers, any individual dissenter will be quickly taken out!
Quote from: Xavier on March 19, 2020, 10:10:23 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/us-coronavirus-cases-surpass-10000-doubling-in-two-days.html
- The number of confirmed COVID-19 cases surpassed 10,000 in the United States on Thursday, doubling over two days as states ramp up testing and the new coronavirus sweeps across the country.
- New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced Thursday morning 1,769 new confirmed cases across the state, pushing the U.S. total over 10,000.
- On March 1, there were roughly 100 confirmed cases of the rapidly spreading virus in the U.S.
these numbers grow because NY just started to test more people who were already sick.
For perspective, there have been 36 to 51 million people in the US who
have been ill with flu this year. Between 370,000 and 670,000 have or
will be hospitalized. There have already been 22,000 deaths from the
flu, which may go as high as 55,000.
Please stop the fearmongering and focus on the real problem which is microchipping, forced vaccination, limitation of rights, basically a NWO rollout. Xavier you rely too much on apparitions that tell you all kinds of pleasantries and luv, luv, luv. You seem to believe in every single apparition and seer out there and that is not healthy spiritually speaking. Remember false propheths will appear and deceive many, etc.
I predict riots in London before Easter. If the kids are not at school they will riot.
The politicians are complete idiots.
Quote from: Xavier on March 19, 2020, 10:10:23 AM
- On March 1, there were roughly 100 confirmed cases of the rapidly spreading virus in the U.S.
I think you might mean "deaths" rather than cases.
100 deaths
331,000,000+ population.Please do the math.
(It's actually 10,816 confirmed cases; 161 deaths.)
Please see if your calculator can handle the division for the percentage of the total US population. And of course, on average, this means about
three deaths per state.
Actually, I have a more current update:
Coronavirus Cases:
11,355
Deaths:
171 (
less than 3.5 deaths per state, of confirmed cases)
Recovered:
108
Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Xavier, what is your source for 100 confirmed cases of Covid by March 1?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 19, 2020, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 05:37:06 PM
Yes, I think most of us had realized by now that the red pill has always been your religion and that your spurious encounter with Jesus has only been able to produce daily contempt for those who are actual Christians.
You're a child of darkness whose god is Satan, and you are indeed contemptuous, for you are not just innocently ignorant but a willing tool of the lie. I know Jesus, not spuriously but really, and nothing said by your forked tongue can change that reality, you small, pathetic, evil creature. Get behind me.
Nobody takes those theatrical rants seriously.
Grow up.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 19, 2020, 01:22:45 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 07:05:47 PM
Those military trucks driving across Bergamo in the picture shared by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica are carrying coffins to other cities of Lombardy to proceed with cremations.
The city and cemetery morgue in Bergamo can't take the overload.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CQfxmFY/lareppublica.jpg)
Thankfully there was a camera there to catch the convoy so we could all participate in the panic parade.
Yes, it was a psy-op.
Silly us.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 19, 2020, 12:40:11 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 19, 2020, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 05:37:06 PM
Yes, I think most of us had realized by now that the red pill has always been your religion and that your spurious encounter with Jesus has only been able to produce daily contempt for those who are actual Christians.
You're a child of darkness whose god is Satan, and you are indeed contemptuous, for you are not just innocently ignorant but a willing tool of the lie. I know Jesus, not spuriously but really, and nothing said by your forked tongue can change that reality, you small, pathetic, evil creature. Get behind me.
Nobody takes those theatrical rants seriously.
Grow up.
They aren't theatrics. And they are very serious. Your god, whom you identify with Allah, is Satan. You are a child of the devil, what the Enochian literature refers to as Son of Darkness and Jesus recapitualtes regarding the followers of Judaism in the Gospel of John. You exist to serve your master and his lie.
And whenever you open your mouth regarding the reality of what I speak about, your words have all the meaning to me of a flat-earther telling an astronaut that space is fake and he's never been there.
QuoteYes, it was a psy-op.
Silly us.
You said it. You are jaw-droppingly blind, naive, gullible and flat-out stupid to swallow this patent psyop hook, line and sinker. And what's most telling is that you are unable to present us with any evidence to confirm the narrative you uphold; all talk about the failure of anyone to produce an experiment with "coronavirus" that isolates a purified virus and fulfils Koch's germ theory postulates, and all talk about the misuse of antibody and PCR tests, is simply ignored by you.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 19, 2020, 01:22:45 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 18, 2020, 07:05:47 PM
Those military trucks driving across Bergamo in the picture shared by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica are carrying coffins to other cities of Lombardy to proceed with cremations.
The city and cemetery morgue in Bergamo can't take the overload.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CQfxmFY/lareppublica.jpg)
Thankfully there was a camera there to catch the convoy so we could all participate in the panic parade.
This is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever seen. Even going by the official death figures and nature of this virus, there is no need and no reason whatsoever for the military to be transporting dead bodies for disposal. Yet again, the behaviour is
out of all proportion to the alleged facts.
But whenever these bastards run psyops, they are filled with "clues" and indicators "hiding" in plain sight for those to see and udnerstand who aren't suffering from severe cognitive dissonance.
No just minor cognitive dissonance, but "severe."
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 19, 2020, 09:53:08 AM
Here's an interesting comment found under the above video posted by John Lamb.
QuoteWuhan has level 4 bio lab that experiments on live deadly viruses and makes them more deadly and patents them. You find out Bill Gates has been funding many of the bio labs in China. Senator Mr. Cotton finds out the virus spreading went into the market in Wuhan. It didn't come from it. Researchers then show that the virus is patented and altered strain of Corona-virus.Bill Gates leaves Microsoft and all others to just spread philanthropy on eugenics, vaccinations without consent that also can cause infertility, and deadly viruses and diseases right after the Virus is released.Bought and paid for mass media spread misinformation that the virus came from bats, when it clearly shows it didn't. World leaders close down their countries. Looks like the elite have a lot more control then all of you thought they had. ;/
Senator Tom Cotton found nothing out. He speculated.
Tom Cotton is playing a dangerous game with his coronavirus speculation
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/18/politics/tom-cotton-coronavirus/index.html
Updated 2:46 PM ET, Tue February 18, 2020
Quote"Regarding Cotton's hypothesis that the virus originated in connection with a lab, Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease specialist at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, said 'I have seen no one provide any solid information to support that theory. I think at this point you can draw a line through it and say that didn't happen.'
"'Everyone with whom I've spoken, or whom I've read, thinks that it has come from a natural source, as did the SARS virus, as did the MERS virus. Both of those were also coronaviruses in animal populations that jumped to the human species in the natural environment,' Schaffner said. 'By now scientists all over the world have looked at this virus and nothing nefarious has come up.'"
Senator Tom Cotton Repeats Fringe Theory of Coronavirus Origins
Scientists have dismissed suggestions that the Chinese government was behind the outbreak, but it's the kind of tale that gains traction among those who see China as a threat.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronavirus-tom-cotton-china.html
QuoteSpeaking to the Fox News anchor Maria Bartiromo, Mr. Cotton suggested that a dearth of information about the coronavirus's origins was raising more questions than answers.
"We don't know where it originated, and we have to get to the bottom of that," he said on the program "Sunday Morning Futures."
After receiving criticism for lending credence to what has been largely considered a fringe theory, the senator took to Twitter to say that he did not necessarily think the virus was an "engineered bioweapon."
That idea, he said, was just one of several hypotheses that included the possibility that the outbreak was a "deliberate release."
Wuhan Institute of Virology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology
QuoteCoronavirus research
In 2005, a group including researchers from the Wuhan Institute of Virology published research into the origin of the SARS coronavirus, finding that China's horseshoe bats are natural reservoirs of SARS-like coronaviruses.[6] Continuing this work over a period of years, researchers from the Institute sampled thousands of horseshoe bats in locations across China, isolating over 300 bat coronavirus sequences.[7]
In 2015, the Institute published successful research on whether a bat coronavirus could be made to infect HeLa [human cell line]. A team from the Institute engineered a hybrid virus, combining a bat coronavirus with a SARS virus that had been adapted to grow in mice and mimic human disease. The hybrid virus was able to infect human cells.[8][9]
2019–20 coronavirus outbreak
In December 2019, cases of pneumonia associated with an unknown coronavirus were reported to health authorities in Wuhan. The Institute checked its coronavirus collection and found the new virus was 96 percent identical to a sample its researchers had taken from horseshoe bats in southwest China.[10]
So we have known corona viruses from China's horseshoe bats can infect humans. And we know that Covid-19 is 96 percent identical to samples taken from China's horseshoe bats. If anything comes out of this it should be keeping everything coming from China, including people closed until China either closes or highly regulates their disgusting markets.
Since the "engineered bioweapon" and "deliberate release" speculations by Senator Tom Cotton the Chinese Communist Party is telling it's 95 million members that Covid-19 was engineered at Fort Detrick and spread by American athletes participating in the Military World Games in Wuhan, China in Oct. 2019.
Chinese Official Says US Army May Have 'Brought the Epidemic to Wuhan'
12 Mar 2020
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/03/12/chinese-official-says-us-army-may-have-brought-epidemic-wuhan.html
Man, are there any conspiracy theories left that are flying around that haven't been posted in this thread? Ahem. It is not spiritually healthy to listen to and repeat every false prophet that is flapping about this or any other issue. Besides there may be repercussions.
Italy is flying a statue of the Virgin Mary over cities to combat corona. Which may or may not be a virus.
http://adventmessenger.org/the-italian-air-force-flies-a-statue-of-the-virgin-mary-over-italy-to-combat-the-coronavirus/
Max,
Regarding the Italian numbers as I was doing the same math as well.
Italian regular annual death rate = 10.6 per 1,000 Italians. I assume Lombardy is approximately the same as the national average.
Lombardy has a population of 10 million which gives us 290 deaths per day on average in Lombardy. Yesterday 475 died in Italy with the vast majority occurring in Lombardy. I seriously doubt that the Lombardy government is counting regular old age deaths as pneumonic viral deaths. We can also keep in mind the numerous anecdotal stories from doctors in Lombardy (or Wuhan) telling of how drastic the situation in their hospitals is.
---
Lynne,
This is not some massive global conspiracy to take Trump out. The world is much bigger than America, its much bigger than England, Europe, or the West in general. There are whole continents with billions of people reacting to this months before the West bothered to and they aren't doing it just to fulfill various Western conspiracies. China didn't implode its economy just to help Biden win the American election. Singapore isn't doing mandatory quarantines of all visitors just to get Trump out of office. Taiwan hasn't fully banned everyone from their island just because they love Hillary. The simple and obvious explanation is there is a viral pandemic killing people and so every government is (belatedly, for the West) taking this seriously.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 19, 2020, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 19, 2020, 07:48:01 AM
But then there came a chorus of disapproval from the UN, the EU, some experts at Harvard, and others, which caused Boris Johnson to backtrack.
The international community and the people (via Internet and media) have already come to a consensus, so he's constrained to act one way if he's to have any hope of not being universally vilified.
The people being vilified are those whom are taking action to try to protect from a viral pandemic. Go re-read this thread in a year or two when emotions die down and tell me which side of the matter here people wrote calmly and reasonably and which side was, frankly, emotional and condemning.
Graham sees it, James sees it, it's obvious.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 19, 2020, 01:30:15 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 19, 2020, 12:40:11 PM
Nobody takes those theatrical rants seriously.
Grow up.
They aren't theatrics. And they are very serious. Your god, whom you identify with Allah, is Satan...
Q.e.d.
QuoteYou said it. You are jaw-droppingly blind, naive, gullible and flat-out stupid to swallow this patent psyop hook, line and sinker...
You've passed the phase where you were just petulant and annoying. Now you're also boring.
Okay, let's go back to serious conversation. There are adults here who are genuinely interested in protecting themselves and their families:
Controversy surrounding the use of NSAID medications like ibuprofen and naproxen with COVID-19 infection have heightened now that the French government has issued warnings against them. Dr. Seheult also discusses preliminary fatality data in the United States released by the CDC, and the results of a novel coronavirus treatment trial with HIV medications Lopinavir and Ritonavir in hospitalized COVID-19 patients.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT6mHi_8V5E[/yt]
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 03:19:13 PM
Max,
Regarding the Italian numbers as I was doing the same math as well.
Italian regular annual death rate = 10.6 per 1,000 Italians. I assume Lombardy is approximately the same as the national average.
Lombardy has a population of 10 million which gives us 290 deaths per day on average in Lombardy. Yesterday 475 died in Italy with the vast majority occurring in Lombardy. I seriously doubt that the Lombardy government is counting regular old age deaths as pneumonic viral deaths. We can also keep in mind the numerous anecdotal stories from doctors in Lombardy (or Wuhan) telling of how drastic the situation in their hospitals is.
The population of Italy is 60,486,529 million. (Lets say 60 million for easier maths.)
You quote the Italian regular annual death rate at 10.6 per 1,000 Italians. (And let's say 10 per 1,000 for the same reason as above.)
10 out of 1000 = 1%
1% of 60,000,000 = 600,000.
Therefore approx. 600,000 Italians die each year at an average of 1,660 per day. If only 475 people died in Italy yesterday, as you state above, then the death rate is falling.
If the figures are correct that is. And my math is.
Here's the Italian population source.
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/italy-population/
Is the Italian coronavirus death toll really that high?
Here's one explanation for the figures.
Quote
But Prof Ricciardi added that Italy's death rate may also appear high because of how doctors record fatalities.
"The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.
"On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three," he says.
Other experts have also expressed scepticism about the available data. Martin McKee, professor of European public health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, says that countries do not yet have a good indication of how many mild infections they have. If further testing finds more asymptomatic cases spreading undetected, the mortality rate will drop.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 19, 2020, 04:50:01 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 03:19:13 PM
Max,
Regarding the Italian numbers as I was doing the same math as well.
Italian regular annual death rate = 10.6 per 1,000 Italians. I assume Lombardy is approximately the same as the national average.
Lombardy has a population of 10 million which gives us 290 deaths per day on average in Lombardy. Yesterday 475 died in Italy with the vast majority occurring in Lombardy. I seriously doubt that the Lombardy government is counting regular old age deaths as pneumonic viral deaths. We can also keep in mind the numerous anecdotal stories from doctors in Lombardy (or Wuhan) telling of how drastic the situation in their hospitals is.
Therefore approx. 600,000 Italians die each year at an average of 1,660 per day. If only 475 people died in Italy yesterday, as you state above, then the death rate is falling.
Yes, your math is correct. It was already reported above that the number of Italians dying per year is roughly 600,000. The exact number works out to be around 1,750 per day, as stated above.
The number of "475" is deaths reported from the Wuhan flu. The total number of deaths in the country is not available, as far as I can tell. I would like to know the number for the total number of deaths in Italy over the past week or two. That would reveal the extent of the increase caused by Wuhan.
Davis is saying that of the normal deaths in Italy, if roughly 300 per day were occurring in Lombardy, and most of the Wuhan deaths are occurring in Lombardy, then that region might be currently experiencing roughly a doubling of the normal number of deaths.
This is plausible, but it would be interesting to see the actual numbers to see if it is borne out.
Kreuz could you tell me what causes chickenpox, herpes, measles? if there are no viruses then what is causing these diseases?
Quote from: Maximilian on March 19, 2020, 06:20:19 PM
Yes, your math is correct. It was already reported above that the number of Italians dying per year is roughly 600,000. The exact number works out to be around 1,750 per day, as stated above.
The number of "475" is deaths reported from the Wuhan flu. The total number of deaths in the country is not available, as far as I can tell. I would like to know the number for the total number of deaths in Italy over the past week or two. That would reveal the extent of the increase caused by Wuhan.
Davis is saying that of the normal deaths in Italy, if roughly 300 per day were occurring in Lombardy, and most of the Wuhan deaths are occurring in Lombardy, then that region might be currently experiencing roughly a doubling of the normal number of deaths.
This is plausible, but it would be interesting to see the actual numbers to see if it is borne out.
I see. Davis is saying that if an average of 300 people in Lombardy die on an average day, then yesterday's death rate in Lombardy of 475 suggest an increased death rate due to the coronavirus.
But the increase could also be due to the fact that winter has barely passed in the region and during winter death rates from flu and other respiratory conditions naturally increase. The figures are averages. 600,000 deaths in Italy per year at an
average of 300 a day takes no account of seasonal variations which may be contributing to the any increased daily death numbers.
I misunderstood the figures quoted above. Yesterday's 475 deaths were for the whole of Italy, not just Lombardy. Okay, it has been argued that most of these deaths will have occurred in Lombardy, but not all of them did. This makes the death rate for Lombardy even less remarkable.
It's entirely possible that in terms of winter flu deaths, nothing particularly unusual is happening in northern Italy right now.
I can't resist repeating it. In Italy, 600,000 people die every day at an average of 1,750 people per day.
The population of Lombardy is around 10 million, which is one sixth of the population of Italy.
Therefore, on average, around 300 people die every day in Lombardy. But that's on average and the average figure takes no account of seasonal variations in deaths from flu and other respiratory conditions.
Therefore the figure of 475 dying in the whole of Italy doesn't seem at all unusual, especially given the observation that Italy tends to attribute more deaths to the coronavirus than other countries.
Quote
But Prof Ricciardi added that Italy's death rate may also appear high because of how doctors record fatalities.
"The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.
"On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three," he says.
If nothing unusual in terms of winter flu deaths is happening in northern Italy right now, why the media circus?
Here a very timely article by Chris Ferrara
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/4809-here-we-go-again-the-virus-of-mass-destruction
Quote
Here We Go Again: The Virus of Mass Destruction
Written by Christopher A. Ferrara
"I've been through MERS, SARS, Ebola, the first Gulf war and the second, and I don't recall anything like this. There's unnecessary, exaggerated panic. We have to calm people down.... [E]everybody is whipping everybody else up into panic — the leaders, via the media, and the wider public — who then in turn start to stress out the leaders. We've entered some kind of vicious cycle." - Dr. Jihad Bishara, Israeli virologist
_________________
Editor's Note: I realize many good people are frightened by what's going on just now. I also realize that families in Europe and China especially have been terribly impacted by the Coronavirus, which has claimed lives—real people's lives, living in the real world. We pray for them and we resolve not to let them die in vain by failing to take ordinary precautions here in the United States that will prevent what happened to them from happening to us. That said, we must also put the crisis in its proper perspective. This will keep panic at bay, which in turn will dramatically reduce the threat caused by hoarding of everything from medical supplies to toilet paper to food.
Panic kills—not only people but also economies. Whatever you think the Coronavirus is—a Chinese bio-weapon, a chastisement from God, a nasty new flu strain—it is quite possible to examine the numbers and the models in order to better understand what to expect over the next couple of weeks. One need not take the narrative of Anderson Cooper and Wolf Blitzer as the infallible word of God on this crisis. In fact, in service to the common good we here at The Remnant feel more or less obligated to provide a dissenting opinion, based not on fear and conspiracy theories but rather on provable facts and numbers.
In order to calm fears and maybe even save lives, responsible citizens must look at the evidential data in order to understand the true nature of the threat we all face. We are not only allowed to ask questions of the media and our elected officials, but indeed we have a duty to ask them. If we draw the wrong conclusions from the available data, fine. Then tell us how and where we're wrong. But please don't attempt to silence us with this or that "scary story" or out-of-context stat, which is often the dangerous currency of a society wrapped in war fever. Honest, responsible and intelligent discussion must be allowed to take place even in a time like this if, that is, our society is to keep up any pretense at all of being free.
No one can tell The Remnant or anyone else that we do not have permission to question the pandemic narrative that is now the basis for the complete suspension of our freedom and civil liberties. Perhaps that narrative is absolutely correct and the ensuing panic unavoidable. But then it can surely and easily withstand our questions over the fact that, at this point, the numbers don't seem to add up. If you don't want questions asked, then go over to CNN where none are allowed. Here at The Remnant, we believe we owe it to our readers to question politicians and the MSM, especially at a time like this—no matter how many people are tragically dying of the flu or COVID-19 or of some other terrible cause. During this crisis, we encourage our readers to pray, keep eyes and ears open and, for God's sake, continue to hold mainstream media accountable. Lives may depend on it. Michael J. Matt
_______________
A Remnant Newspaper Public Service Announcement
I AWOKE TODAY to read the following headline at Fox News: "World in Peril". According to Fox News the entire world is in peril because this year so far, out of a world population of 7 billion, 8,944 people have died from the disease dubbed COVID-19 as compared with the 291,000-646, 000 people worldwide who die from seasonal influenza annually. The media are wrong. Neither the world, nor Italy, nor any other country is in peril because of COVID-19.
Someone in authority has to put the brakes on this media-driven hysteria. Someone in authority has to be compelled to answer some obvious questions. Such as
Why isn't the world in peril because hundreds of thousands of people will die from influenza this flu season?
Where is the actual hard evidence that COVID 19 is anything more than a flu-like illness which causes minor symptoms in 96% of those infected with a death rate no higher than that of the common flu in cases requiring critical care in a hospital, generally involving elderly people with comorbidities?
How are we supposed reconcile these conflicting claims: (a) COVID-19 is "ten times deadlier than the flu"; and (b) scores of millions must be infected with COVID-19, which means that fewer than 9,000 fatalities worldwide to date would represent a vanishingly small rate of death?
Why is it so urgent that non-hospitalized people be tested for COVID-19 when anyone experiencing flu-like symptoms of any kind is being told to stay home until he recovers, which precludes leaving home to be tested?
Given that point-of-care testing—i.e., in a hospital for admitted patients—by the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) method is the most reliable mode of testing, which requires exacting execution of the test, is it not the height of folly to direct people to the drive-thru testing centers now being hastily erected, where hastily devised alternative tests, never subjected to rigorous validation, would yield an unknown number of false positive and false negative results?
In a nation of 370 million people, what possible testing regime could provide useful information about the total number of infected people if symptomatic people are told to stay home and asymptomatic people who may be carriers are told they need not be tested?
How is the media's obsession with testing, testing, testing as the sign that government is "doing something" to combat the "coronavirus pandemic" anything but pageantry for public consumption that only causes further panic and confusion?
As of today, March 18 at 10:20 a.m., a total of 151 people in the United States have died from COVID-19—ignorantly described by the never-to-be trusted mass media as "the coronavirus" as if it were the only coronavirus in the world rather than part of a family of viruses that includes the common cold. That's 151 deaths among 370 million people, with almost all the victims being over age 70 with comorbidities, and none of them children.
Based on those 151 deaths, the mass media and their government enablers—overwhelmingly Democrats, including Democrat state governors—are relentlessly turning the entire nation into a concentration camp in which public gatherings of more than 50 people are banned (or more than 10 people here in Richmond, VA), vast swaths of the economy are shut down, and entire cities are placed under virtual house arrest, as has just happened in San Francisco and will apparently soon happen in New York.
corona chirs quote 1
Swept up in the media-orchestrated panic and facing political destruction if he is not perceived to be handling "the deadly coronavirus pandemic," President Trump is conducting daily press briefings while surrounded by a bevy of experts who blather on and on about models, curves, and the availability of test kits at drive-thru centers for the same symptomatic people who are supposed to stay home and self-quarantine. The experts include that intolerable blabbermouth Dr. Anthony Fauci, a CNN favorite because of his willingness under prodding to make wild and criminally reckless predictions, such as his prediction that it is "possible" that "millions could die" in the US from a virus that has caused fewer than 9,000 deaths in the whole world.
Meanwhile, as the media-DNC complex ramps up mass hysteria for blatantly political ends, 22,000-50,000 people will die from the common flu in this country alone during the 2019-2020 flu season, with 36,000,000-51,000,000 infections and 370,000-670,000 hospitalizations.
Speaking of the flu, Dr. Pritish Tosh, an infectious disease specialist with the Mayo Clinic, put the orchestrated panic over COVID-19 into the proper perspective: "There is a deadly respiratory virus that is circulating throughout the United States, and it is at its peak. It is not novel coronavirus." It is the common flu virus, which has killed between 12,000 and 61,000 Americans every flu season and between 291,000 to 646,000 people worldwide.
Italy, Italy, Italy, chirp the fear mongers in unison. Italy, they say, is the "new epicenter" of the "global coronavirus pandemic." "America will become Italy" unless government officials—those paragons of competence we can always trust to do the right thing—take "radical measures." Like placing the whole of San Francisco under house arrest or sending sheriff's deputies to surround the home of a man who tested positive for the virus but declined to be hospitalized. Query: How many sheriff's deputies would it take to surround the homes of every American who shows even minor signs of a flu-like illness but declines to stay indoors for weeks until the government tells him he can go outside again?
corona chirs quote 2
So, let's take a look at Italy—the epidemiological and demographic facts rather than the reckless fear-mongering in which, sad to say, not only Fox but even certain Catholic commentators are engaging. As of today, 2,503 Italians have died from COVID-19. The average age of the victims is "81, with the majority suffering from underlying health problems."
I repeat: the average age of the victims is 81, meaning that many of them must have been in their 90s, and most had comorbidities. Bloomberg reports that "More than 99% of Italy's coronavirus fatalities were people who suffered from previous medical conditions, according to a study by the country's national health authority." Thus, in Italy there is no epidemiological evidence whatsoever of a significant risk of death among the healthy population of non-elderly people. All the available evidence shows a death rate and a mortality cohort no different from that of influenza.
Now, a bit of calm research would have revealed that Italy has a very large proportion of very elderly people who are peculiarly susceptible to viral epidemics, above all the annual flu virus. As noted in a definitive study published in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases: "In terms of amplitude of the at risk population, in Italy there are 6.7 million people aged 75+ (more than 10% of the population) that constitute a large group of fragile subjects, among which the annual death rate is naturally high, around 4%."
The same study assessed the data from four flu seasons in Italy—2013/14, 2014/15, 2015/16 and 2016/17—to arrive at the conclusion that "the total number of excess deaths attributable to influenza in the 4-season study period was 68,068," an average of 17,000 flu deaths in Italy per year with the highest annual numbers being 41,000 during the 2014/15 flu season and 43,336 during the 2016/2017 flu season.
In general, the annual death rate for influenza in Italy is said to be 8.5 per 100,000, which translates into at least 5,100 deaths from the flu every year in Italy, but with huge spikes in particularly bad years as seen in the cited study.
That said, although there have been over 2 million cases of flu recorded in Italy since its current flu season began last October, there have been only 240 recorded flu deaths, of which "most were elderly patients who suffered complications as a result of the virus." What these data suggest is that during this flu season most of the burden of virus-related deaths among Italy's elderly will be from COVID-19, not the flu, while the total burden of virus-related deaths will remain within the usual range for the Italian population as Italy's 2019-2020 flu season nears its end.
The data bear out this assumption: Between March 14 and 16 there was a decline in both deaths from COVID-19 and the number of new cases, as shown here. Today there was a slight increase that did not, however, reach the peak of March 15. Moreover, as seen here, the logarithmic graph of the death rate, which reflects the percentage of increase in the number of deaths based on the number of total cases, most of which are mild, already shows a gently rising, almost flat curve as of March 16, versus the linear graph that shows merely the increase in the raw number of deaths.
Linear graphs of COVID-19 deaths are misleading and bad science because they tend to be skewed toward higher numbers in smaller statistical cohorts where "one or a few points are much larger than the bulk of the data."
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For example, if we were to start with 1 case and end with 150 cases by the end of a week, a linear graph would show what appears to be a skyrocketing increase. But if the growth rate during the week was Monday 1, Tuesday 15, Wednesday 25, Thursday 32, Friday 30, Saturday 24 and Sunday 23, a logarithmic graph would show a gentle curve not indicating exponential growth but rather a slowing of growth.
As of today, March 17, that is exactly what we are seeing in both Italy and the world on the logarithmic graphs. And, sure enough, during the past week in Italy, as reported by The Telegraph, the total number of cases rose at "the slowest rate since the first cases were reported on Feb 21. Although the numbers are still very high, the rate at which the total is growing appears to have slowed in recent days."
Another crucial fact has been lost in the reigning hysteria. Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg, a German physician who is also Chairman of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe Health Committee, warns that it is misleading and medically irresponsible to assign a definite rate of death to COVID-19 when where there are no reliable data on the actual total number of cases in the general population. What is more, says Dr. Wordag, given that 7-15% of those infected by a flu virus also have a coronavirus during any given flu season, no one can say with any certainty that deaths attributed to COVID-19, which is just this year's iteration of coronavirus, are not actually caused by influenza, and no one is presenting data to distinguish the two in active cases in Italy or elsewhere.
In essence, Wordag argues, it was virologists' hasty creation of a COVID-19 test, just as hastily approved by the World Health Organization, that has led to a sensational abuse of the test as "proof" of an exclusively COVID-19 epidemic in Italy and elsewhere that could well be masking the usual underlying annual flu epidemic, at least to a large extent. But now that politicians have gotten involved and created a panic narrative, Wodarg concludes, "it is going to be very hard for critics to say 'Stop. There is nothing going on.' And this reminds me of the fairy tale of the king without clothes."
Turning back to America, an article by Steve Mosher explains why America will not be like Italy. Mosher exposes the game the fear-mongers are playing with exponents in calculating the risk of transmission of COVID-19. Addressing the completely reckless claim by Ohio governor Mike DeWine on national television that the number of coronavirus cases in Ohio may be as many as 100,000, Mosher notes that "it was probably the result of an exponential equation that assumed that every infected person spread the disease to 2.6 others within a few days after showing symptoms of the disease." But, Mosher asks, "What if the real ROI [rate of infection] was actually closer to the 1.3 characteristic of the seasonal flu? In that case, every infected person would only spread the disease to 1.3 others. And the resulting number of infections after the same dozen transmissions? Only twenty-four (24)!"
Exactly so. Recall that in my previous article on the subject I noted that even Fake News CNN (perhaps inadvertently) published a report five days ago stating that "The coronavirus also appears to be about as infectious as the flu, and potentially more so, especially as there are no specific treatment, cure or seasonal vaccine." "Potentially more so" means not actually more so.
Further, Mosher argues:
[E]ven common sense tells you that Ohio simply cannot have 100,000 cases at the present moment. Why? Because to date Ohio has only confirmed 37 actual cases of the Chinese coronavirus, and is testing 361 more. Well, you say, this is only because the rollout of the test kits has been so slow. But if that is the case, then why have there only been 7 hospitalizations and not a single death? That's zero fatalities as in zero, zip, nada. That leaves only two possible explanations. Either the estimate of 100,000 cases is a gross exaggeration or the Chinese coronavirus is much less dangerous than we have been told. Or both.
Mosher next addresses the claim by Dr. Fauci, CNN's favorite blabbermouth expert, that the CDC estimates the mortality rate for the virus at around 1%. "But if this were true," says Mosher, "and there are 100,000 cases in Ohio already, then we would have 1,000 deaths in Ohio alone by the time the disease had run its course in those currently infected... Literally dozens of people would be dying every week. The funeral homes would be filling up. They're not." Again, not a single person has died in Ohio from COVID-19. And, as of his writing, there were only "67 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Ohio across 16 counties" (now 69 cases) and only "17 people are hospitalized" even according to Fake News CNN.
Nowhere, in fact, do we see any hard-statistical evidence to back up all the reckless claims and dire predictions by a mainstream media that, let's face it, already had a massive credibility problem going in. Instead, we see nattering members of the press demanding that Trump declare when millions of test kits will be made available for the phantom millions who will be demanding them, when a vaccine will be ready, whether he will commandeer factories to produce mass quantities of ventilators for the phantom masses of people who will otherwise be dying of respiratory failure in the streets, and how he will address the "collapse of the health care system" when it is besieged by imaginary hordes of desperate COVID-19 patients.
And all of this hysterical nonsense is based on 151 COVID-19 deaths over the past 90 days, while 22,000 Americans or more have already died from the flu and hundreds of thousands have been hospitalized without the media or the Democrats expressing any alarm whatsoever about a lack of flu testing, vaccine or ventilators, or the "collapse" of the health care system.
We need to resist the wave of insanity that is sweeping over the nation and the world. We need to heed the few voices of reason that have managed to receive some media coverage, such as the prominent Israeli virologist, Dr. Jihad Bishara, director of the Infectious Disease Unit at Petah Tikva's Beilinson Hospital, who spoke to Israel's Channel 12:
I've been in this business for 30 years. I've been through MERS, SARS, Ebola, the first Gulf war and the second, and I don't recall anything like this. There's unnecessary, exaggerated panic. We have to calm people down.... [E]everybody is whipping everybody else up into panic — the leaders, via the media, and the wider public — who then in turn start to stress out the leaders. We've entered some kind of vicious cycle.
The rational approach to COVID-19 is to treat it no differently from the flu while not allowing ourselves to be made prisoners in our own homes by public officials, many with blatantly political motives, who are denouncing Trump's "failures" while issuing unprecedented and legally baseless diktats amounting to martial law. That means:
Stay away from places where there have been a cluster of cases, such as nursing homes.
If you have flu-like symptoms, stay home and ride them out, just as you have done with the common flu whenever you have come down with it.
Don't expose others if you are symptomatic.
If you are in your sixties or older, limit community contact as much as possible.
Everyone should avoid people who are coughing or sneezing and refrain from shaking hands with strangers at gatherings.
Everyone should wash his hands if he comes into contact with strangers or symptomatic family members and avoid touching his face.
Finally, seek urgent medical care if, and only if, you are experiencing something dramatically different from the flu with which you are familiar.
But for heaven's sake, don't go driving around looking for a drive-thru testing center so that you can be part of an epidemiologically useless sliver of the population that has swabs jammed up both nostrils all the way to the back of the throat to obtain a test result that may not even be reliable. Even with a negative result, says the CDC, one could still have the virus, "which is possible in the early stages of infection," while a negative test with symptoms "likely means that the COVID-19 virus is not causing [the] current illness...". Likely means? How likely? The CDC is not saying because nobody really knows. Therefore, will any of the symptomatic people also be drive-thru tested for co-infection with Influenza B so that it can be determined whether it is really COVID-19 that is causing the symptoms, not the flu, as Dr. Wodarg has suggested?
corona test 2
Absurdly enough, the drive-thru tests are not being analyzed for people who show no symptoms but could be carriers, because only symptomatic people with doctor's orders are being tested, making the test useless for determining the extent of the virus's spread among the asymptomatic population. As for those who do have symptoms, weren't they told to self-quarantine? So, which is it? Confine yourself to home or leave home to obtain a test that, if positive, means you should confine yourself to home—assuming the result was not a false positive, which can be ruled out only with a second test and a second trip from home. And where and how will that second test be done?
Even more absurdly, President Trump has vowed that "anyone who wants a test can get a test," while according to ABC News "officials say that getting everyone tested is a long-term goal. Currently testing is limited and should be left to those who really need it..." So, the ultimate goal is to test 370 million people for COVID-19, but right now just those who really need it, and then later on those who don't really need a test but would like to have one. Is this a joke?
All in all, this frenzy of drive-thru spot testing will result in little or no reliable information about who actually has the disease or what percentage of the population is carrying the virus without symptoms. The hastily contrived COVID-19 testing regime borders on the nonsensical and may well be counter-productive. But the media and the experts have demanded it, so the show must go on.
Conclusion
Today, the same shifty politicians and their lying media accomplices, who perpetrated the "collusion with Russia" hoax for nearly three years, are promoting yet another panic narrative by which many people of good will have been carried away: the virus of mass destruction that will kill millions unless government officials turn our towns, cities and states into virtual internment camps while destroying the Trump economy—just in time for the next election and Sanders' or Biden's call for socialist economic measures to address an economic disaster created, not by a virus, but by a panic over a virus they themselves fomented. Trump himself is forced to play his part in the piece, evidently in the hope that this insane melodrama will end with him as the man who saved America from the virus that could have ended the American dream.
Of course, it won't end here. It is all but certain that once the virus runs its course, as all viruses do, the politicians and the media will credit draconian government restrictions of freedom of movement, assembly and economic activity with "saving millions of lives." The lying media will prepare the masses to accept the same loss of freedoms during the next "deadly pandemic" which, like this one, will not even approach the worst seasonal flu in terms of lives lost. We will have been translated, overnight, into a cyclical soft dictatorship that exploits mass panic over new viruses that have frightening names but are no more harmful, or even less harmful, than the seasonal flu that has been causing tens of thousands of deaths in this country every year with no loud alarms from the media or the politicians.
Here it will be helpful to remember the lack of media-generated panic during the 2009-2010 swine flu epidemic while Obama was President, even though the virus responsible infected (so they say) 63 million Americans and killed 12,000. Now, however, while Trump is President, 370 million Americans are supposed to hunker down in fear because of 151 deaths from COVID-19. We cannot allow ourselves to accept this preposterous disparity of state action or what it portends for the future.
Finally, to the readers of this newspaper I address this plea: How long will good Catholics allow themselves to be herded like sheep in whatever direction lying demagogues tell them to move? When will we learn to presume that the truth will almost invariably be precisely the opposite of what these liars tell us? In the midst of this panic, we are indeed facing a test of our courage. Not courage in facing down a virus, but rather courage to declare a resounding nay to the propaganda of the Ministry of Truth in a post-Christian world that is fast becoming a complete realization of Orwell's Oceania.
Italy: 41,000 cases, 3400 deaths. Looks like rate of change is slowing somewhat. Prediction is 6,000 deaths by Sunday. We'll probably fall short, so doubling rate is dropping. If we come in at 5000 on Sunday, the doubling rate is 5 days (4 day prev).
USA: 14,300, 218 deaths. My prediction was 13,000 by Sunday, so definitely still in exponential growth.
Normal disclaimer: Deaths are all old people. For the vast majority it is a mild disease. Main threat is panic, quarantine, and economic damage. Unless you are old and sick, in which case you should isolate.
Italian Catholics on the ground relate 'extremely grave' situation caused by coronavirus
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/italian-catholics-on-the-ground-relate-extremely-grave-situation-caused-by-coronavirus
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 19, 2020, 03:33:17 PM
Quote from: John Lamb on March 19, 2020, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 19, 2020, 07:48:01 AM
But then there came a chorus of disapproval from the UN, the EU, some experts at Harvard, and others, which caused Boris Johnson to backtrack.
The international community and the people (via Internet and media) have already come to a consensus, so he's constrained to act one way if he's to have any hope of not being universally vilified.
The people being vilified are those whom are taking action to try to protect from a viral pandemic. Go re-read this thread in a year or two when emotions die down and tell me which side of the matter here people wrote calmly and reasonably and which side was, frankly, emotional and condemning.
Graham sees it, James sees it, it's obvious.
James doesn't see it anymore, now that he is ending his posts with the impression that only the old and sick need to isolate. Which is the English recipe for disaster. There wasn't much sense of him posting the prepping thread since he's succumbed to the stupid English idea. I was talking to a guy from out west today. He predicted that the US would take the lead as the major epicenter for the corona virus shortly. I can see it happening with this idea.
Italian Catholics and many Italian people for a long time have been warning the world not to wait as long as they did; but much of the world does not seem to want to listen at the moment.
Anyway, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi gave a speech yesterday that was widely praised, and among other things said, "A request to the people of India: please do not engage in panic buying".
Worldwide news: Deaths cross 10,000. Coronavirus cases touch 250,000. International penetration is 90% as the disease has reached 180 countries out of 200 worldwide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
See also: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
"Latest Updates
March 20 (GMT)
532 new cases and 10 new deaths in the United States [source] [source] [source] [source] [source]
2 new deaths in Peru, a 47-year old man and a 69-year old man. They had both returned from Spain [source]
12 new cases in Honduras [source]
2 new cases in Bolivia [source]
87 new cases and 3 new deaths in South Korea [source]
15 new cases in Uruguay [source]
46 new cases in Mexico [source]
5 new cases in Cuba [source]
7 new cases in Brazil [source]
11 new cases in New Zealand [source]"
I'm not going to attack anyone who believes differently on this, but be open to the evidence, dear friends. Each day it piles up more clearly.
Why should we dismiss the warnings of the Italian people not to allow what happened there to happen everywhere? Any good reason?
Martin, if you don't want to see 100 to 10,000 in a matter of 20 days, even with increased testing, is an alarming and unprecedented rate of increase I'm not going to say much more. With a similar hundredfold increase, you'll be dealing with a million cases 20 days from now, without swift action. Keep saying it's like SARS all you want; btw, SARS infected 8000 people with 775 deaths. Keep on saying it's just like the flu now all you want; it's ten times deadlier than the flu, about 3 times more contagious. Keep thinking it's no more than pneumonia if you wish; Pneumonia cases in Italy in a whole year were 9000. Coronavirus cases in Italy in less than 3 months are 41,000. I worked as a Quantitative Analyst for Bank of New York Mellon for 2 years; I know what numbers mean and I know that stats don't lie. The stats are not on the side of the virus-sympathizers here.
Keep bashing God's Words of comfort, even though some of you so manifestly need Divine Comfort, yet seek it elsewhere, other that in the Lord's Words. I don't believe anything blindly, which is why I don't believe some of the ridiculous conspiracy theories here; but I'm not closed to the supernatural, and I accept manifest evidence of the supernatural, where doctors have documented supernatural cures, and especially where Bishops or Priests have given their approval. There are many more miracles at Lourdes, for e.g. than the so-called "documented miracles" which are like 1% of the total. They "document" only a few out of the many because some of them, like some of you, are practical naturalists.
Miriam, did you read the website I posted? the source for 100 cases - not 100 deaths - on March 1st in the US was in the CNBC link I gave. The three bullet points were from there.
(https://cna-sg-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/q_auto,f_auto/image/12557418/16x9/670/377/92c078c6cd1107f40807cf61da1416a6/vK/a-memorial-for-li-wenliang-outside-the-ucla-campus-in-california-1584625838883-2.jpg)
"SHANGHAI: A Chinese report into the coronavirus death of a young doctor reprimanded by police for "spreading rumours" when he tried to raise the alarm about the disease drew quick criticism online after it merely suggested the reprimand be withdrawn.
The investigative team also denounced the "anti-establishment" labels of "hero" and "awakener" that some had given to Dr Li Wenliang, who became one of the crisis's most visible figures in the early days of the outbreak when he tried to sound the alarm in the central city of Wuhan.
READ: Outrage grows over death of Chinese doctor who sounded coronavirus alarm
News of his death at 34 in early February triggered an outpouring of outrage and sadness in China.
The report, issued by China's top anti-corruption agency, the National Supervisory Commission, said a team sent to Wuhan looked into how he found out about the virus, how he had been summoned to a police station and how he was treated when ill.
Their key recommendation, according to the report published by state broadcaster CCTV, was to say that Wuhan authorities needed to find the police who had reprimanded Li and hold them responsible for not following correct procedures.
It said the reprimand by police should be withdrawn." https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/report-into-death-doctor-li-wenliang-covid19-underwhelms-12559578
"Li Wenliang died after contracting the virus while treating patients in Wuhan.
Last December he sent a message to fellow medics warning of a virus he thought looked like Sars - another deadly coronavirus.
But he was told by police to "stop making false comments" and was investigated for "spreading rumours".
"I don't think he was rumour-mongering. Hasn't this turned into reality now?" his father, Li Shuying, told the BBC. "My son was wonderful." ... China's leadership had already faced accusations of downplaying the severity of the virus - and initially trying to keep it secret.
What has the public reaction been?
Analysts say it is hard to recall an event in recent years that has triggered as much online grief, rage and mistrust against the Chinese government.
News of Dr Li's death became the top trending topic on Chinese social media, garnering an estimated 1.5bn views." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51409801
Edit: US cases now 14,339. Deaths at 217 https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ A 40% increase in cases in a single day. Just the flu, folks. Nothing to see here, right? We owe it to the wonderful memory of heroic Dr. LI WENLIANG, who died from the virus, to announce its severity properly. Those who do otherwise are following the Communists in their lies; your accusations against us parallel their accusations against him.
Quote from: mikemac on March 19, 2020, 09:14:27 PM
Italian Catholics on the ground relate 'extremely grave' situation caused by coronavirus
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/italian-catholics-on-the-ground-relate-extremely-grave-situation-caused-by-coronavirus
One of their correspondents, at least, presents good news that is reason for hope:
"He responds: "Europe is broken, Italy, Spain, Germany. Everything that existed 20 years ago, he continues, "no longer exists." The "entire social structures have broken apart," and the "life of the Church is totally broken."
"He adds that it is "not foreseeable how things will continue in the financial world."
"Professor Schwibach – who has repeatedly interviewed Cardinal Walter Brandmüller on matters of the Church – describes how "achievements of the last 50 years have been wiped away," borders closed, and how "politicians first deny and then panic." The European community, he adds, is gone."
QuoteJames doesn't see it anymore, now that he is ending his posts with the impression that only the old and sick need to isolate.
That's fair. I'm not isolating personally. Enough data is out that this is a mild disease if you are healthy. In fact, getting it now, while it is not fatal, is probably a good thing. Because if it mutates into something more fatal, there's a good chance I'd be immune.
It's a tough call. I respect the other side. But as of now, if you are 50 or younger and in good shape, the death rate is lower than the flu. On the other hand, isolation probably ends up protecting old people.
In fact, there's a chance I have it. My buddy got sick last week with dry cough, fever, and fatigue. Spent the weekend in bed. I saw him at work Monday and he was still dragging arse so I told him to go home. Came back Tuesday with energy and was even better today. I now have a slight cough. I am on a pretty impressive vitamin stack, so I might have milder symptoms than he did, we'll see. If it's Wuhan flu, and this is the extent of it, that will be a good thing because I'll have the anti bodies when round 2 comes around. Or it might just be seasonal flu. I got that awhile back, so maybe my symptoms will be a lot more mild.
AC,
Yes, my estimates were for Lombardy, not Italy overall. This was not to prove anything but it continues to strongly suggest the existence of this pandemic. Those figures (as do similar figures for the past days prior) indicate a notable increase in the deaths in Lombardy - either that, or:
- the Lombardy doctors are so incompetent they cannot distinguish between normal deaths and a new pandemic which causes death by ARDS
- the Lombardy coroner's office is in some massive global conspiracy to dethrone Trump
- the Lombardy government is faking deaths so that they can have an excuse to stop the immigration invasion down in the south
Or some other (strange) idea to avoid the obvious, which is that there is a pandemic and its killing people. How many people, how deadly is it, how much of a threat is it, is the quarantine worse than the virus, are all reasonable questions to discuss. But by now the stack of evidence is overwhelming and it is not credible to doubt the existence of the pandemic.
- Wuhan deaths [maybe it was a local toxic spill]
- China massive lockdown [maybe this was all a national toxic spill]
- Diamond Princess [now a totally unrelated cruise ship with Japanese passengers are dying in Japanese hospitals, its no longer just a China thing]
- Serious governments start going into war-time defense: Taiwan, Singapore, Macau, Hong Kong
- Iran deaths
- Korea deaths and mass infection [why did less die there? The church is predominantly younger people, kinda like Mormons]
- Lombardy deaths
- Washington State nursing home deaths
- Serious governments in the West begin war-time defense: Italy, France, Germany, USA
- Serious governments ban all entry: Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, Europe closes borders
- Serious governments with little relation are doing massive testing: mainland China, Korea, Bahrain
Anyone focusing on what the lying media says and then waving it off because the media is a liar is missing the big picture and willfully deluding himself. I note that the lying media back in January and February was constantly saying the virus is no threat to anyone. While there was a humanitarian crisis in mainland China the Western media headlines were nothing but Grammys and trannies. So the lying media unsurprisingly lied about the threat then. They flip flopped and are, as always, completely unreliable.
There is zero reasonable evidence that explains all of this off other than that a pandemic is loose and serious governments everywhere are now (belatedly) taking this seriously.
Btw, as to the statement earlier that "India is barely touched"; that's because India took very stringent measures from very early on. And it's 173 cases even still despite that. It would be like 17,300 at least if we'd not taken those very strong and very correct measures early on.
In other news, the death toll from Italy surpasses the officially reported death toll in China:
"Coronavirus Live Updates: Fresh Cases In Punjab, Bengal, Andhra; Confirmed Cases In India Rise To 173 ...
Italy overtook China's coronavirus death total and braced for an extended lockdown that could see the economy suffer its biggest shock since World War II.
The Mediterranean country's toll reached 3,405 after it recorded 427 new deaths on Wednesday.
China has officially reported 3,245 deaths since registering the first case at the end of last year."
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/india-news-coronavirus-live-updates-italy-records-427-new-deaths-crosses-chinas-toll-india-cases-rise-to-173/349112
Many suspect the unofficial death toll in China is a lot higher. Since the press is not completely free there, and because of the manifest opposition of the Communists to the Truth documented earlier, on account of which they persecuted heroic DR. LI WENLIANG, it very likely is. If you want to do a tribute to Dr. Li, spread the word about the danger of the disease. But in terms of official numbers, Italy has overtaken China's officially reported cases. As for trying to glean information from nationwide population, you won't have much from there, because even a 60 million figure is only accurate with at most a plus or minus 1% accuracy. 1% is not much, but it would be as many as 600,000 when the base figure is that large. So deaths are not going to show up there at any significant level for some time. But the reports of people dying, hospitals already full, and personal reports from Italians themselves, are sufficient cause for seriousness about this virus and the absolute urgency of humanity defeating and eradicating it, by God's Grace.
Finally! It's late, but it's very good news from China. The Wuhan police apologize to Dr. Li Wenliang, after much pressure from the Chinese Public, and after Millions if not Billions rallied behind him in a show and sign of Public Support. They offer compensation to his family; hopefully, the Communist government changes its way of doing things going forward. If the world had been warned in a more widespread way on Dec. 30, we'd be several months forwad in dealing with the threat; but thanks to Dr. Li's heroic efforts, at least we're aware of it now. An article: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-03-19/Admonition-letter-to-Dr-Li-Wenliang-improper-investigation-OZvG7i94Fa/index.html
"Wuhan police apologize for reprimanding doctor who sounded early alarm on COVID-19
Updated 14:40, 20-Mar-2020
Six weeks after the death of a doctor, who was reprimanded by local police for raising the early alarm of the deadly novel coronavirus, which sparked public outrage, authorities on Thursday made a public apology to his family.
Police department of central China's Wuhan City made an official apology to the family of the deceased doctor, citing "inappropriate handling on the matter."
Officials have also decided to revoke the letter of reprimand for Dr. Li, in which he was accused of "spreading rumors." Punishments were also announced for those who had rebuked him earlier.
Additionally, compensation for his family members has been granted, according to the official statement from China's top supervisory body.
Doctor Li sounded early alarm
Long before people were aware of the virus, the 34-year-old ophthalmologist posted a message on December 30 in a WeChat group within his own circle of medical friends, notifying them of a "mysterious virus" similar to the SARS virus. Although he sent it in private, it still became widely seen by the Chinese public.
Four days later, Li was summoned by officers from Zhongnanlu Police Station of Wuhan, capital of central Hubei Province, which was later found to be the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak."
(https://video.cgtn.com/news/3d677a4d78417a4e7967444d7867544d3251444f31457a6333566d54/video/509695ec7c6c4981b49f490bcd42281c/509695ec7c6c4981b49f490bcd42281c.jpg)
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
James, Xavier,
Perhaps you could start reporting sucides in your figures.
Here's one from the UK yesterday.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/mans-body-found-sea-near-3964629
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 19, 2020, 04:02:09 PM
You've passed the phase where you were just petulant and annoying. Now you're also boring.
You, on the other hand, have always been boring.
Quote
Okay, let's go back to serious conversation. There are adults here who are genuinely interested in protecting themselves and their families:
Controversy surrounding the use of NSAID medications like ibuprofen and naproxen with COVID-19 infection have heightened now that the French government has issued warnings against them. Dr. Seheult also discusses preliminary fatality data in the United States released by the CDC, and the results of a novel coronavirus treatment trial with HIV medications Lopinavir and Ritonavir in hospitalized COVID-19 patients.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT6mHi_8V5E[/yt]
And again, no argument from you.
Why won't you address the fact that a) this virus has never been purified, isolated and shown to cause disease by fulfilling the postulates of Robert Koch's germ theory, b)antibody tests cannot demonstrate infection or cause of disease, c) PCR tests cannot demonstrate cause of disease, are extremely susceptible to false positives and negatives and are dependent upon identifying partial gene sequences assumed to be specific to a virus that has never actually been isolated, d)there is no historical data by which to determine the markers for this virus have not always been present throughout the population in degrees similar to what is showign up now and the assertion that this is an outbreak is mere presumption without evidence.
This is junk science, conclusions drawn from data which do not follow, neither by deduction nor induction, and you have no arguments to defend it from that fact.
In terms of flu deaths, nothing unusual is happening in Italy.
On average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy. In winter the rate will be higher and in summer lower.
Italy's Wednesday death toll from the coronavirus was 475.
Nothing unusual is happening in Italy in terms of flu deaths.
The panic mongers here have nothing to say.
They just double down and continue to spread the hype.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 04:26:15 AM
In terms of flu deaths, nothing unusual is happening in Italy.
On average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy...
And "the Lombardy region in northern Italy ranks among the most air polluted areas of Europe...".
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935116300834
https://www.thelocal.it/20190228/po-valley-air-pollution-italy
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/22/health/22whoop.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/22/health/22whoop.html)
Faith in Quick Test Leads to Epidemic That Wasn't
QuoteDr. Brooke Herndon, an internist at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, could not stop coughing. For two weeks starting in mid-April last year, she coughed, seemingly nonstop, followed by another week when she coughed sporadically, annoying, she said, everyone who worked with her.
Before long, Dr. Kathryn Kirkland, an infectious disease specialist at Dartmouth, had a chilling thought: Could she be seeing the start of a whooping cough epidemic? By late April, other health care workers at the hospital were coughing, and severe, intractable coughing is a whooping cough hallmark. And if it was whooping cough, the epidemic had to be contained immediately because the disease could be deadly to babies in the hospital and could lead to pneumonia in the frail and vulnerable adult patients there.
It was the start of a bizarre episode at the medical center: the story of the epidemic that wasn't.
For months, nearly everyone involved thought the medical center had had a huge whooping cough outbreak, with extensive ramifications. Nearly 1,000 health care workers at the hospital in Lebanon, N.H., were given a preliminary test and furloughed from work until their results were in; 142 people, including Dr. Herndon, were told they appeared to have the disease; and thousands were given antibiotics and a vaccine for protection. Hospital beds were taken out of commission, including some in intensive care.
Then, about eight months later, health care workers were dumbfounded to receive an e-mail message from the hospital administration informing them that the whole thing was a false alarm.
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Not a single case of whooping cough was confirmed with the definitive test, growing the bacterium, Bordetella pertussis, in the laboratory. Instead, it appears the health care workers probably were afflicted with ordinary respiratory diseases like the common cold.
Now, as they look back on the episode, epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists say the problem was that they placed too much faith in a quick and highly sensitive molecular test that led them astray.
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Infectious disease experts say such tests are coming into increasing use and may be the only way to get a quick answer in diagnosing diseases like whooping cough, Legionnaire's, bird flu, tuberculosis and SARS, and deciding whether an epidemic is under way.
There are no national data on pseudo-epidemics caused by an overreliance on such molecular tests, said Dr. Trish M. Perl, an epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins and past president of the Society of Health Care Epidemiologists of America. But, she said, pseudo-epidemics happen all the time. The Dartmouth case may have been one the largest, but it was by no means an exception, she said.
There was a similar whooping cough scare at Children's Hospital in Boston last fall that involved 36 adults and 2 children. Definitive tests, though, did not find pertussis.
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"It's a problem; we know it's a problem," Dr. Perl said. "My guess is that what happened at Dartmouth is going to become more common."
Many of the new molecular tests are quick but technically demanding, and each laboratory may do them in its own way. These tests, called "home brews," are not commercially available, and there are no good estimates of their error rates. But their very sensitivity makes false positives likely, and when hundreds or thousands of people are tested, as occurred at Dartmouth, false positives can make it seem like there is an epidemic.
"You're in a little bit of no man's land," with the new molecular tests, said Dr. Mark Perkins, an infectious disease specialist and chief scientific officer at the Foundation for Innovative New Diagnostics, a nonprofit foundation supported by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. "All bets are off on exact performance."
Of course, that leads to the question of why rely on them at all. "At face value, obviously they shouldn't be doing it," Dr. Perl said. But, she said, often when answers are needed and an organism like the pertussis bacterium is finicky and hard to grow in a laboratory, "you don't have great options."
Waiting to see if the bacteria grow can take weeks, but the quick molecular test can be wrong. "It's almost like you're trying to pick the least of two evils," Dr. Perl said.
At Dartmouth the decision was to use a test, P.C.R., for polymerase chain reaction. It is a molecular test that, until recently, was confined to molecular biology laboratories.
"That's kind of what's happening," said Dr. Kathryn Edwards, an infectious disease specialist and professor of pediatrics at Vanderbilt University. "That's the reality out there. We are trying to figure out how to use methods that have been the purview of bench scientists."
aka PCR tests
Vetus will have no answer.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 04:26:15 AMOn average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy. In winter the rate will be higher and in summer lower
Italy's Wednesday death toll from the coronavirus was 475.
The issue here, Awk, is you're not comparing like with like at all. It is a true case of apples and oranges.
The true conclusion that can be reported from your data is - "Coronavirus causes a deaths increase today in Italy of (roughly) 27%"
You're comparing "ALL deaths in Italy"(ADI) with "deaths in Italy from coronavirus alone"(DICA). The number you need is "deaths in Italy from flu alone" (DIFA) with DICA. ADI vs DICA is the wrong comparison, in other words, it should be DIFA vs DICA.
The number of deaths in the whole world from flu alone is about 1300 daily. That's with almost no precaution taken for the flu. With 475 deaths in a single country, even with many precautions, we're well on our way to going past that number soon.
Here is some more data and comparisons - note that your number 1750 is the total number of daily deaths in Italy per the below:
"Italy's population is about 60 million, and its normal death rate is 10.6 per 1000, which is to say about 640,000 deaths per year, or about 1750 per day; the 350 or so extra deaths per day over the last couple of days (if this worldometers.info data is correct) are about 20%.
But apparently about 2/3 of the deaths have been in Lombardy (in Northern Italy; Milan is the capital), which has about 1/6 of Italy's population. If the daily deaths are likewise 2/3 in Lombardy (not certain, because it's possible that the geographical incidence of the deaths has changed over time), then we're talking about 240 or so extra deaths per day on top of the usual 300 or so in Lombardy, or about 80%." https://reason.com/2020/03/17/italian-daily-death-rate-up-20-because-of-coronavirus-lombardy-up-about-80/
And https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
"Comparisons:
- Every year an estimated 290,000 to 650,000 people die in the world due to complications from seasonal influenza (flu) viruses. This figure corresponds to 795 to 1,781 deaths per day due to the seasonal flu.
- SARS (November 2002 to July 2003): was a coronavirus that originated from Beijing, China, spread to 29 countries, and resulted in 8,096 people infected with 774 deaths (fatality rate of 9.6%). Considering that SARS ended up infecting 5,237 people in mainland China, Wuhan Coronavirus surpassed SARS on January 29, 2020, when Chinese officials confirmed 5,974 cases of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV). One day later, on January 30, 2020 the novel coronavirus cases surpassed even the 8,096 cases worldwide which were the final SARS count in 2003.
- MERS (in 2012) killed 858 people out of the 2,494 infected (fatality rate of 34.4%).
Finally, deaths in Italy jumped another 427 on Thursday, as reported here, "The death toll from an outbreak of coronavirus in Italy rose in the last 24 hours by 427 to 3,405, overtaking the total number of deaths so far registered in China, officials said on Thursday." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/uk-schools-close-italy-covid-19-deaths-jump-live-updates-200318235116951.html
What are your thoughts about Dr. Li Wenliang and the situation in China, or are you not much concerned about that? For us, it is obvious that it is the Communists who tried to downplay the severity of the virus from the beginning; and when Dr. Li Wenliang heroically warned the world of its danger, they accused him of "rumor-mongering" and all those other things you are accusing of now.
QuoteDr. Li Wenliang heroically warned the world of its danger, they accused him of "rumor-mongering" and all those other things you are accusing of now.
Xavier, brilliant, I had not made that connection.
Xavier, even before the coronavirus, Italy had a high rate of flu deaths compared to other countries.
Here's a study which investigates this for you to have a look at.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971219303285
The title of the study is -
Quote
Investigating the impact of influenza on excess mortality in all ages in Italy during recent seasons (2013/14–2016/17 seasons)
According to this study,
Quote
• In the winter seasons from 2013/14 to 2016/17, an estimated average of 5,290,000 ILI cases occurred in Italy, corresponding to an incidence of 9%.
• More than 68,000 deaths attributable to flu epidemics were estimated in the study period.
• Italy showed a higher influenza attributable excess mortality compared to other European countries. especially in the elderly.
I don't have the energy to take a close look at numbers right now. But if Italy normally has a high rate of influenza deaths compared to other countries as the above study points out, then how unusual are this season's flu death rates in Italy?
Quote from: Xavier on March 20, 2020, 06:00:30 AM
The issue here, Awk, is you're not comparing like with like at all. It is a true case of apples and oranges.
The true conclusion that can be reported from your data is - "Coronavirus causes a deaths increase today in Italy of (roughly) 27%"
You're comparing "ALL deaths in Italy"(ADI) with "deaths in Italy from coronavirus alone"(DICA). The number you need is "deaths in Italy from flu alone" (DIFA) with DICA. ADI vs DICA is the wrong comparison, in other words, it should be DIFA vs DICA.
The number of deaths in the whole world from flu alone is about 1300 daily. That's with almost no precaution taken for the flu. With 475 deaths in a single country, even with many precautions, we're well on our way to going past that number soon.
Again Xavier doesn't understand what a
mean is and that deaths from flu etc. are
concentrated, not distributed evenly throughout the days of the year. They are not just random. Stick to theology.
Quote"deaths in Italy from coronavirus alone"
For the last time: this number does not exist and cannot be ascertained because there are no tests being used that can diagnose coronavirus as cause of diseae and death. None, Zero. Zip.
And a final word: all things are not equal. Deaths from "flu" over this season could well exceed the mean due to treatment by the medical industry, for instance treatment with toxic antivirals, not to mention immune systems already compromised by the stress caused by panic, economic destruction, unavailability of good food etc.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 20, 2020, 06:19:46 AM
QuoteDr. Li Wenliang heroically warned the world of its danger, they accused him of "rumor-mongering" and all those other things you are accusing of now.
Xavier, brilliant, I had not made that connection.
Heroically warning the world of a virus that, going by the Diamond Princess and Chinese data, causes no symptoms in 50% of
tested cases and mild symptoms in the other 80%, but could kill you if you're already sick and dying. We are eternally grateful.
What if, instead of wasting our time doing pointless math whose hidden assumptions we pretend we understand, we just look at the testimony of doctors and nurses in heavily affected countries.
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
What if, instead of wasting our time doing pointless math whose hidden assumptions we pretend we understand, we just look at the testimony of doctors and nurses in heavily affected countries.
Because that's asinine.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 04:26:15 AM
In terms of flu deaths, nothing unusual is happening in Italy.
On average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy. In winter the rate will be higher and in summer lower.
Italy's Wednesday death toll from the coronavirus was 475.
Nothing unusual is happening in Italy in terms of flu deaths.
The panic mongers here have nothing to say.
They just double down and continue to spread the hype.
So the chaotic scenes of people on trolleys gasping for air and waiting for a ventilator happens every year!! The drs and nurses do a round of Whats app and facebook posts all distressed over their patients!!
If its not an anomaly then why are the hospitals behaving like it is??
QuoteFor the last time:
And a final word:
Good.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
What if, instead of wasting our time doing pointless math whose hidden assumptions we pretend we understand, we just look at the testimony of doctors and nurses in heavily affected countries.
Because that's asinine.
Translation, it's harder for KR to manipulate the argument
For those who are critical of calling this a mild disease, consider that there are consequences to treating this like the plague. Illinois is now de facto bankrupt. We will either create $200 BILLION in debt for our unborn grandkids to pay off (with usury), or we will have to slash the pensions of these people. People who are retired and have a 401K plan are in serious trouble. New Jersey, California, Connecticut, and Kentucky will likely go bankrupt. Millions will lose their jobs. I was predicting a $30 TRILLION debt load by 2024. Likely we'll breech that in 2021. Again this means that our unborn grand kids will do without street lights, good roads, and police protection while paying a 70% tax rate to the usurors. Or we go bankrupt (we have to), and everyone will lose their pensions and life insurance.
So this is not simply a case of "playing it safe". We might have just detonated our economy. If it turns out that quinine is the miracle drug (positive effect on market psychology) and the market rebounds due to the bail out, we'll survive.
But this is also a glimpse into the future that our grand kids will have. Even if we escape a complete collapse, this WILL happen, and not 50 years out. It happens when the world loses faith in the dollar. Usury is pure evil.
Quote from: diaduit on March 20, 2020, 07:55:45 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 04:26:15 AM
In terms of flu deaths, nothing unusual is happening in Italy.
On average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy. In winter the rate will be higher and in summer lower.
Italy's Wednesday death toll from the coronavirus was 475.
Nothing unusual is happening in Italy in terms of flu deaths.
The panic mongers here have nothing to say.
They just double down and continue to spread the hype.
So the chaotic scenes of people on trolleys gasping for air and waiting for a ventilator happens every year!! The drs and nurses do a round of Whats app and facebook posts all distressed over their patients!!
If its not an anomaly then why are the hospitals behaving like it is??
I am not saying it does not happen but what is the SOURCE of the chaotic scenes.
Can you provide a link. Does it say CNN or BBC or CBS.
I went on Youtube today and typed something like "Chaotic scenes in Italy" and EVERY SINGLE RESULT for at least 5 pages was major news broadcasters.
Where is all the independent reporting.
Can anybody post a link of what looks like independent journalism of the chaotic scenes.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/03/breaking-percent-of-deaths-from-the-coronavirus-compared-to-deaths-from-the-flu-in-the-us-reach-0-7-155-22000-the-world-has-gone-mad/
QuoteBREAKING: Percent of Deaths from the Coronavirus Compared to Deaths From the Flu in the US Reach 0.7% (155/22,000) – The World Has Gone Mad!
When compared to other societal ailments, the coronavirus is receiving much more attention. The common flu does more damage than the coronavirus but the world seems to be reluctant to focus on anything else.
According to overnight updates, the number of coronavirus cases in the US now stands at 9,464 cases. The number of related deaths stands at 155
According to the CDC, the number of flu cases confirmed in the US since September currently stand at 222,552 cases with 22,000 deaths:
The number of coronavirus cases confirmed in the US as a percent of the number of flu cases confirmed in the US now stand at 4.2% (9,464/222,522). The percent of deaths from the coronavirus to deaths from the flu is 0.7% (155/22,000).
In the past few days the number of deaths in the US from the coronavirus passed the number flu deaths in Hong Kong (7-8 million people) which were 113.
As we reported previously, since the beginning of the year the flu in Hong Kong has been much more consequential than the coronavirus:
The Centre for Health Protection announced today that the winter flu season has ended. During this period, 113 adults died of influenza and no deaths from children were recorded. The Centre reminds the public that although the winter flu peak period has ended, citizens should continue to maintain personal and environmental hygiene to prevent respiratory diseases.
There have been 4 deaths from the coronavirus to date in 2020 in Hong Kong.
The US is now willing to spend $1 trillion on the coronavirus. It would be nice to see this go to other ailments where it might be better used.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/03/no_author/the-coronavirus-is-not-causing-deaths-weak-immune-systems-are/
Quote
Forget the toilet paper & bottled water – – grab the vitamins & trace minerals to ward off infectious disease given absence of any proven anti-viral drug or (potentially problematic) vaccine for covid-19 coronavirus.
First, recognize fear-driven decision making is counterproductive. Fear increases demand for vitamin C, so be aware of that. So do viruses or any infection. Be CONCERNED, not FEARFUL.
Primary antidote
Recognize these viral epidemics come in winter when vitamin D levels are low. As a fatty vitamin, your liver should have 3 months of vitamin D stored, but probably doesn't.
The viruses were always there but erupt when sunshine vitamin D blood serum levels are low. SO GO OUTSIDE, MIDDAY, AND GET SOME SUNSHINE ON YOUR SKIN to produce natural vitamin D. Expose arms, legs, face. Quarantines deprive people of sunshine vitamin D.
Supplement with 8000 units vitamin D3 daily (kids 2000+ units); if ill – – > take 50,000 units vitamin D3 for 3-5 days; then 8000 units daily. This is not an overdose as physicians inject 300,000 units vitamin D for wintertime storage in your liver.
High-risk individuals, in particular senior adults, need to initiate self-care & utilize vitamins & trace minerals.
Up to a third of hospital workers now harbor coronavirus. So, patients who face hospitalization may be re-exposed to the pathogen.
Home treatment of lungs and throat
If you are short of breath (possibly indicative of your lungs filling with fluid), have a fever, a persistent dry cough, call your doctor first, don't run to the hospital where germs have learned how to resist life-saving drugs. Your doctor may elect to prescribe medicines and keep you at home.
You may develop bronchitis – mucus sticking to the airways to your lungs, which induces a cough. Get in the shower and turn water to extreme HOT and deep breathe in the mist. This will loosen mucus from your bronchial tubes. You will cough up mucus.
Colds and flu are sometimes accompanied by earaches and sore throat. Instill hydrogen peroxide in ear canals. Garlic oil instilled into the ear is also helpful.
For sore throat, gargle with salt water, or better, with hydrogen peroxide.
If your throat is very sore, go to drug store and get CHLORASEPTIC spray or lozenges (which you should have on hand) to anesthetize a raw throat.
Sore throat is usually caused by Streptococcus bacteria which is acid secreting. So alkalinity kills it — salt water gargle.
The mortal consequences of wintertime lower respiratory tract infection is that your lungs may fill up with fluid, you can't breathe, and you drown in your own fluid. This is called pneumonia (nu-mown-ya).
Auto-immunity
Sometimes the immune system is over-responsive and creates more havoc in your lungs, resulting in uncontrollable inflammation and lungs filling with fluid. Vitamin D, vitamin A and the red wine molecule resveratrol normalize the immune response.
Avoid drug store remedies
Do not run to the drug store and purchase aspirin or acetaminophen (Tylenol) which deplete vitamin C and glutathione and may make your infection worse. Acetaminophen is a liver toxin.
When you go to the drug store, the pharmacist may suggest you vaccinate against the flu. DO NOT VACCINATE FOR THE FLU WHEN YOU ARE ILL. The vaccine may not work (you may not develop antibodies) if your immune system is weak and the vaccine IS the pathogen (virus or bacterium).
Be aware, you may develop co-infection (common cold + flu).
Blood pressure drugs
There is a warning about a class of blood pressure lowering drugs called ACE inhibitor drugs (angiotensin converting enzyme) that allow entry of the coronavirus into cells. But what is not mentioned that ACE inhibitors deplete zinc which is required for proper T-cell activity. T-cells, produced in the thymus gland, generates memory T-cells that produce long-lasting immunity. Supplement with zinc.
High risk individuals
If you are in a high-risk group (diabetes, overweight, smoker, drinker, or take immune suppressant drugs, or vitamin C-depleting drugs such as cortisone, aspirin, acetaminophen or diuretics), you may benefit from dietary supplements for immune support (disease treatment would likely require intravenous vitamin C and trace mineral treatment).
Underused nutritional therapy: don't ask your doctor
How long is modern medicine going to go on casting a blind eye to nutritional medicine before millions of lives are lost? The hope of a vaccine looms, but is months away. Even with a 100% vaccination rate and 100% vaccine effectiveness, by my calculations it is likely such a vaccine would generate more hospitalizations and deaths than the disease itself because of the weak immune status of the individual.
Risk of infection is low and death is nil.
Among healthy adults the risk for infection is very, very small, and the risk for death is almost nil – – in China 3000 (avoidable) deaths in 58 million or 5 in 100,000). Infection and mortality rates are much lower in the U.S. Most of those deaths were among fragile, unhealthy adults over age 70.
The number of reported cases of infection may be far lower than what actually occurs because some patients may never come in contact with the medical care system and recover at home, some only experiencing a mild fever or never even exhibiting symptoms whatsoever.
So, the reported number of infections may be low due to non-reporting and therefore the percentage of individuals infected or who die may be inaccurately high.
At this point in time, in China ~80,000 were infected and some were hospitalized and ~3000 of the 80,000 succumbed. But just hospitalization alone increases the mortality risk due to medication errors, exposure to antibiotic-resistant germs, and low-vitamin D levels due to sun-deprivation.
Inaccurate testing
Testing is inaccurate and is not instructive as to the type of therapy needed.
The COVID-19 coronavirus test is inaccurate and produces many false positive results. The COVID-19 coronavirus is very infectious, but among healthy individuals may not even produce symptoms or just a mild fever.
YOU WANT TO GET INFECTED so you will develop natural life-long antibodies. Then you will not need to be vaccinated with a new unproven vaccine, like what happened in 1976 with the swine flu – the vaccine causing thousands of cases of paralysis (Guillain barre syndrome).
A Harvard professor says up 70% of the global population will be infected with coronavirus within the next year. That is actually a positive because most will naturally develop antibodies. If one were to say 70% of the world just got vaccinated against coronavirus that would be considered a major achievement but if 70% were naturally immunized against coronavirus without a needle and syringe that would be considered a dire problem. Why?
Modern medicine continues to talk out of two sides of its mouth. Put another way, 70-90% of the world may develop natural antibodies against coronavirus without problematic vaccines.
Among high-risk groups (smokers, drinkers, immune-compromised, heart problems, over age 70), the risk for infection from ANY circulating virus or bacterium is considerable, to the point of being life threatening.
Host resistance
Don't try and run and hide from viruses. So, are all the deaths due to coronavirus? Probably none of them if you consider the problem is not infection but failed host resistance. Coronavirus was in circulation before the winter flu season. Low seasonal vitamin D levels triggered eruptions of the coronavirus as well as other viruses and bacteria, including tuberculosis, which is also a lung disease.
This author continues to cite data showing the risk for infection is very low, even in China where there is air pollution, polluted water, and poor health habits (68% of males smoke tobacco; 46% drink alcohol) – – – 1/10th of one-percent or 1 in 1000 infection rate and 3.4 deaths among the 1000 infected persons (which in the population as a whole (healthy and infected) is still only a 0.00005% or 5 in 100,000 mortality rate.
A frightening headline news report cites a university professor's claim that 96 million Americans could be infected and 4.8 million hospitalized with COVID-19 coronavirus, with a 1 in 10 chance of dying, citing increasing mortality rates with advancing age (3.6% for 60-69 years of age; 8% age 70-79 and 14.8% aged 80 and over). THAT IS A WORST-CASE SCENARIO that will subside once spring comes and more the earth tilts back toward the sun and our vitamin D blood levels rise.
Those age groups are considered high risk for ANY infections and subsequent mortality.
Overlooking seasonal flu
For whatever reasons, modern medicine is giving the false notion that the only infectious lung disease that is killing adults this wintertime is COVID-19 coronavirus. What happened to seasonal influenza which reportedly kills thousands every year? Of course, that flu number is specious, used as a fear tactic to get the public to vaccinate.
Maybe only a few hundred Americans succumb to the flu each year. With coronavirus test kits giving false positive and false negative test results, are any numbers involving infection rates accurate at all?
The Centers for Disease Control claims seasonal flu in 2018-19 caused 35.5 million infections, 490,600 hospitalizations and 34,200 deaths. These numbers are very specious. Even if valid, and among all who got the flu (35.5 million, only 9 in 10,000 would die — 34,200). But the CDC mixes flu deaths in with pneumonia deaths to frighten Americans to get vaccinated. Most of those 34,200 deaths were due to pneumonia.
Mass vaccination
It would be highly unwise to attempt to vaccinate all 7 billion people on the planet to prevent, by my calculations, 1 death in 362,069 people. Almost 100,000 people (99,995 to be precise) would have to vaccinated to prevent 5 deaths.
Build your resistance to disease
The world has gone bonkers, with the misdirected masses stocking up on toilet paper and bottled water instead of vitamins and trace minerals to ward off an infectious disease. While looking down its nose at nutritional therapy, modern medicine has yet to fully put into practice therapies that produce what only a few physicians prescribe – – vitamins and trace minerals targeted at high-risk individuals, to boost immunity (what is called host resistance) among high-risk individuals against influenza, tuberculosis and other infectious diseases.
No vaccine could possibly help vulnerable seniors since vaccines rely on an intact immune system to produce antibodies against infectious disease.
Do the obvious
Vitamin D3 is the most obvious and potentially effective nutrient that can be used against corona and other viruses as well as pathogenic bacteria.
In China, 50 cases of moderate to severe COVID-19 coronavirus infections were given intravenous vitamin C. Hospital stays were shortened by 3-5 days. There were no side effects with vitamin C therapy. ALL PATIENTS IMPROVED – NO MORTALITY!
If ill, increase oral vitamin C to 3000 milligrams every 4 hours.
When ill, zinc acetate lozenges will shorten the course of a cold or flu.
Quote from: diaduit on March 20, 2020, 07:55:45 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 04:26:15 AM
In terms of flu deaths, nothing unusual is happening in Italy.
On average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy. In winter the rate will be higher and in summer lower.
Italy's Wednesday death toll from the coronavirus was 475.
Nothing unusual is happening in Italy in terms of flu deaths.
The panic mongers here have nothing to say.
They just double down and continue to spread the hype.
So the chaotic scenes of people on trolleys gasping for air and waiting for a ventilator happens every year!! The drs and nurses do a round of Whats app and facebook posts all distressed over their patients!!
If its not an anomaly then why are the hospitals behaving like it is??
How do any of us know what's going on in Italian hospitals? From Facebook and Whats app posts?
Show me a scene from an 'Italian hospital' that proves beyond doubt that there's a corona pandemic happening in Italy. All of those images and Twitter reports could be fake. How would you know if they weren't?
I have some experience, not a lot but enough, of how the media works to know how easy it is to manipulate words and images to create a desired effect.
The figures suggest that nothing more than a typical winter flu season is happening in Italy. Meanwhile martial law is being enforced and the citizens of California are being told to stay at home.
It's psyop designed to lock everyone down.
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
What if, instead of wasting our time doing pointless math whose hidden assumptions we pretend we understand, we just look at the testimony of doctors and nurses in heavily affected countries.
You prefer accepting unverifiable testimony from doctors and nurses online to examining the figures and finding the flaws they contain.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 09:20:49 AM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
What if, instead of wasting our time doing pointless math whose hidden assumptions we pretend we understand, we just look at the testimony of doctors and nurses in heavily affected countries.
You prefer accepting unverifiable testimony from doctors and nurses online to examining the figures and finding the flaws they contain.
ABSOLUTELY. I'm going to out-Kreuz Kreuzritter here, but all the data you are working with (including ordinary flu death data) is inaccurate. You are wasting your time with schoolboy calculations that have highly fragile assumptions. It makes FAR more sense to see whether the boots on the ground see the situation as exceptional or not.
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 08:10:59 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
What if, instead of wasting our time doing pointless math whose hidden assumptions we pretend we understand, we just look at the testimony of doctors and nurses in heavily affected countries.
Because that's asinine.
Translation, it's harder for KR to manipulate the argument
No, translation is it's
asinine, stupid, unscientific thinking, because even taken at face value, the subjective impressions of medical workers is not a reliable indicator of the objective situtation nor can it tell one anything about the cause of disease in patients. Hospitals
are being flooded, but this is an inevitable consequence of the perception of a pandemic (people with flu symptoms are showing up at the hospital when they usually don't, and being forcefully quarantined in hosptials), whether one really exists or not, and there are no data to suggest that the number or ill is so extraordinarily high it requires a pandemic to explain.
You have to be a special kind to suggest something like this directly after I posted the article from the NY Times about a false whooping cough epidemic, where these same medical professionals were convinced an epidemic was underway when it was just the common cold doing the rounds.
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 09:43:07 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 09:20:49 AM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
What if, instead of wasting our time doing pointless math whose hidden assumptions we pretend we understand, we just look at the testimony of doctors and nurses in heavily affected countries.
You prefer accepting unverifiable testimony from doctors and nurses online to examining the figures and finding the flaws they contain.
ABSOLUTELY. I'm going to out-Kreuz Kreuzritter here, but all the data you are working with (including ordinary flu death data) is inaccurate. You are wasting your time with schoolboy calculations that have highly fragile assumptions. It makes FAR more sense to see whether the boots on the ground see the situation as exceptional or not.
That doesn't make sense at all unless you're a bona fide idiot.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 08:10:59 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
What if, instead of wasting our time doing pointless math whose hidden assumptions we pretend we understand, we just look at the testimony of doctors and nurses in heavily affected countries.
Because that's asinine.
Translation, it's harder for KR to manipulate the argument
No, translation is it's asinine, stupid, unscientific thinking, because even taken at face value, the subjective impressions of medical workers is not a reliable indicator of the objective situtation nor can it tell one anything about the cause of disease in patients. Hospitals are being flooded, but this is an inevitable consequence of the perception of a pandemic,w hether one really exists or not, and there are no data to suggest that the number or ill is so extraordinarily high it requires a pandemic to explain.
You have to be a special kind to suggest something like this directly after I posted the article from the NY Times about a false whooping cough epidemic, where these same medical professionals were convinced an epidemic was underway when it was just the common cold doing the rounds.
The panics in the article were small in scale, lacked external oversight, and most importantly didn't result in ICUs in several countries actually being overrun with dying patients. I know in your own mind you are the chosen one whose every dictate must be believed by everyone on SD, lest they be deemed retarded satanists, but to most of us you are just some crank.
Quote from: james03 on March 20, 2020, 08:19:20 AM
For those who are critical of calling this a mild disease, consider that there are consequences to treating this like the plague. Illinois is now de facto bankrupt. We will either create $200 BILLION in debt for our unborn grandkids to pay off (with usury), or we will have to slash the pensions of these people. People who are retired and have a 401K plan are in serious trouble. New Jersey, California, Connecticut, and Kentucky will likely go bankrupt. Millions will lose their jobs. I was predicting a $30 TRILLION debt load by 2024. Likely we'll breech that in 2021. Again this means that our unborn grand kids will do without street lights, good roads, and police protection while paying a 70% tax rate to the usurors. Or we go bankrupt (we have to), and everyone will lose their pensions and life insurance.
So this is not simply a case of "playing it safe". We might have just detonated our economy. If it turns out that quinine is the miracle drug (positive effect on market psychology) and the market rebounds due to the bail out, we'll survive.
But this is also a glimpse into the future that our grand kids will have. Even if we escape a complete collapse, this WILL happen, and not 50 years out. It happens when the world loses faith in the dollar. Usury is pure evil.
Perhaps, then, a modified, temporary socialism is warranted? One where the usurers are taxed of every last penny they have and the funds used to pay off the debt?
Question: in all the splendid variety of topics that Kreuzhammed (pbuh) has weighed in on, can anyone remember him qualifying his position with a phrase like "I think," or "in my opinion," or "for what it's worth," or "I'm not sure, but"? Or does he deliver every opinion of his - even such opinions as that the Council of Trent is for retards - in the tones of personal infallibility?
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 19, 2020, 06:50:01 PM
Kreuz could you tell me what causes chickenpox, herpes, measles? if there are no viruses then what is causing these diseases?
Kreuz I would like you to answer this question because if there are no viruses then there must be something causing the above illnesses? I don;t know if you are familiar with Hulda Clark's research but she said that viruses live in bacteria and when you kill bacteria then viruses are released quickly and you may experience herx reaction. I understand you explain that viruses are toxins.
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 10:11:43 AM
Question: in all the splendid variety of topics that Kreuzhammed (pbuh) has weighed in on, can anyone remember him qualifying his position with a phrase like "I think," or "in my opinion," or "for what it's worth," or "I'm not sure, but"? Or does he deliver every opinion of his - even such opinions as that the Council of Trent is for retards - in the tones of personal infallibility?
It's not my opinon that
a) This alleged virus has not been isolated and shown to fufil Robert Koch's postulates of germ theory and therefore has not been shown to fulfil necessary citeria for its existence as an exogenous disease-causing agent.
b) Antibody tests, which only show past exposure to an antigen that may not even be specific, logically cannot be used to deduce infection, contagiousness, sickness, likelihood of becoming sick or, if sick, the cause of that sickness.
c) PCR tests cannot do any of this either, have no reliable error estimates for their use, and are so unreliable with false positive and negatives, even assuming the genetic sequences they are looking for have been correctly identified as specific to an exogenous virus, that for this reason they are not used to diagnose HIV, and in the case cited 100% of positive tests yielded negative results for infection by bacteria when subjected to tests that actually seek to isolate and culture the disease-causing microbe in accordance with Koch's postulates.
d) The existence of the coronavirus pandemic is postulated on the basis of these tests and the assumption of what has not been desmonstrated to exist an exogenous disease-causing agent.
It's also not my opinion that
a) Whether there is a pandemic or not, hospitals are being flooded with the sick because the sick are under the perception that they have acquired a dangerous disease which is in need of urgent medical attention.
b) Human beings are highly susceptible to affirming false narratives based on perceptions informed by those narratives.
c) Appealing to such pereptions is rejected by the scientific method.
d) Going by the numbers tested and the 200-300 dollar cost of testing, the medical industry will already have grossed hundreds of millions of dollars administering coronavirus tests. It's my
opinion that truth does not matter to the producers of these tests, namely the truth of whether they work or not to do what they are beign used to do, an opinion informed by the nature of their activity, namely big business, their stock price shooting up in the face of economic disaster, their track record for poisoning and killing millions, and the case of the ELISA tests for HIV which i referenced earlier.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: diaduit on March 20, 2020, 07:55:45 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 04:26:15 AM
In terms of flu deaths, nothing unusual is happening in Italy.
On average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy. In winter the rate will be higher and in summer lower.
Italy's Wednesday death toll from the coronavirus was 475.
Nothing unusual is happening in Italy in terms of flu deaths.
The panic mongers here have nothing to say.
They just double down and continue to spread the hype.
So the chaotic scenes of people on trolleys gasping for air and waiting for a ventilator happens every year!! The drs and nurses do a round of Whats app and facebook posts all distressed over their patients!!
If its not an anomaly then why are the hospitals behaving like it is??
How do any of us know what's going on in Italian hospitals? From Facebook and Whats app posts?
Show me a scene from an 'Italian hospital' that proves beyond doubt that there's a corona pandemic happening in Italy. All of those images and Twitter reports could be fake. How would you know if they weren't?
I have some experience, not a lot but enough, of how the media works to know how easy it is to manipulate words and images to create a desired effect.
The figures suggest that nothing more than a typical winter flu season is happening in Italy. Meanwhile martial law is being enforced and the citizens of California are being told to stay at home.
It's psyop designed to lock everyone down.
I'm not saying this is true of all, but many European hospitals are like something you'd find in the third world. When they kicked out all the nuns and replaced them with foreign labor, they turned into exactly what you'd expect. I know an old man who had a stroke last fall and went to the hospital where he spent days lying on his back in the corridor before being seen. He's still barely able to walk from the damage done to his back, even though he's recovered from the stroke. I know another man in his nineties who spent six days waiting in a corridor. You hear stories like this all the time, and that's just standard, let alone during flu season. It doesn't seem very likely that the situation is better in Iran or China.
Quote from: queen.saints on March 20, 2020, 11:01:04 AMI'm not saying this is true of all, but many European hospitals are like something you'd find in the third world.
The healthcare system in Northern Italy is one of the best in the world, especially regarding pulmonary diseases. That's one of the divine ironies of this situation.
Nevertheless, no healthcare system, no matter how good it may be, can withstand thousands of people flocking to the ER everyday. That's the situation you'll have to avoid in the US if you don't want public calamity to ensue.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 20, 2020, 10:19:34 AM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 19, 2020, 06:50:01 PM
Kreuz could you tell me what causes chickenpox, herpes, measles? if there are no viruses then what is causing these diseases?
Kreuz I would like you to answer this question because if there are no viruses then there must be something causing the above illnesses? I don;t know if you are familiar with Hulda Clark's research but she said that viruses live in bacteria and when you kill bacteria then viruses are released quickly and you may experience herx reaction. I understand you explain that viruses are toxins.
I won't state it dogmatically, just that it's not been shown and, in certain cases of epidemics like polio and AIDS, the alleged virus was not responsible. I also won't state dogmatically that "viruses" are x,y and z, because I don't think sufficient evidence exists - only that it's what I suspect is the general case and what makes sense to me. What you say may very well be the case, but I have no idea. We know that vaccines make people ill, but this is a direct reaction to antigens and poisons, not a virus hijacking cells to reproduce itself. In "terrain theory", cells are changing form and producing certain products in reaction to that, and these specific particles and symptoms are
responses to, not
causes of, disease. In that model you
want the symptoms; to suppress symptoms is like not vomiting when you have food poisoning; then your symptoms will change - "different" diseases can have the same underlying cause beign expressed in different ways by the body. Unfortunately, if this view is correct, mainstream scientific research down that path ended with the adoption of Pasteur's ideas, along with any fruit that might have borne. The viral alternative is 100 years alter we are still getting sick and dying, apart from fake eradications by vaccine like polio.
Remember what Pasteur's theory was immediately used for by the French: to hurt British shipping. Them Brits are spreading disease through their contagious sailors.
Okay I'll humour you for a bit Kreuzritter.
Hasn't Koch's postulates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates) been supplanted by the Bradford Hill criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria)?
Also when you get time would you please address this question from a couple of days ago.
Quote from: mikemac on March 16, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 16, 2020, 01:54:10 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 08:40:19 AM
Kreuz,
My late mother did Vitamin C IV for her cancer....she died a year and a half later and funnily enough her tumour tracers started to climb within months of doing her course. Very expensive btw , €200 per IV. Oh and she passed a kidney stone 3 months before she died which is a side effect of Vit C in high dose.
Cancer? What does this have to do with issue at hand? Logic, please? And of course, nephrotoxic chemotherapy drugs will have had nothing to do with kidney stones. Muh medical professionals told me so.
VITAMIN C DOES NOT CAUSE KIDNEY STONES
http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v01n07.shtml (http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v01n07.shtml)
I've read anything over, I think it was 2000 mg of vitamin c per day would be just eliminated with urine, a waist. Is it and why would it be any different with intravenous vitamin c?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 06:49:40 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 20, 2020, 06:19:46 AM
QuoteDr. Li Wenliang heroically warned the world of its danger, they accused him of "rumor-mongering" and all those other things you are accusing of now.
Xavier, brilliant, I had not made that connection.
Heroically warning the world of a virus that, going by the Diamond Princess and Chinese data, causes no symptoms in 50% of tested cases and mild symptoms in the other 80%, but could kill you if you're already sick and dying. We are eternally grateful.
Dr. Li Wenliang was just 33 years old. He was exposed to a large viral load from the patient he was treating. That exposure eventually killed him, something that wouldn't have happened with a normal flu.
I know it's difficult for you, because you had a personal encounter with Jesus, but try to at least show some respect for the man and his efforts, at a time when the Chinese government was busy trying to cover everything up.
Quote from: sedmohradsko on March 20, 2020, 10:11:04 AM
Quote from: james03 on March 20, 2020, 08:19:20 AM
For those who are critical of calling this a mild disease, consider that there are consequences to treating this like the plague. Illinois is now de facto bankrupt. We will either create $200 BILLION in debt for our unborn grandkids to pay off (with usury), or we will have to slash the pensions of these people. People who are retired and have a 401K plan are in serious trouble. New Jersey, California, Connecticut, and Kentucky will likely go bankrupt. Millions will lose their jobs. I was predicting a $30 TRILLION debt load by 2024. Likely we'll breech that in 2021. Again this means that our unborn grand kids will do without street lights, good roads, and police protection while paying a 70% tax rate to the usurors. Or we go bankrupt (we have to), and everyone will lose their pensions and life insurance.
So this is not simply a case of "playing it safe". We might have just detonated our economy. If it turns out that quinine is the miracle drug (positive effect on market psychology) and the market rebounds due to the bail out, we'll survive.
But this is also a glimpse into the future that our grand kids will have. Even if we escape a complete collapse, this WILL happen, and not 50 years out. It happens when the world loses faith in the dollar. Usury is pure evil.
Perhaps, then, a modified, temporary socialism is warranted? One where the usurers are taxed of every last penny they have and the funds used to pay off the debt?
Possibly another solution would be to end the Fed and every other privately controlled central bank in the world.
Someone mentioned something about a silver lining. Well we just may have three coming out of this pandemic;
1. End the Fed.
2. End globalization.
3. End the silly notion of open borders.
And by the way James, generations to come were already toast in our debt long before this pandemic.
Quote from: mikemac on March 20, 2020, 11:17:38 AM
Okay I'll humour you for a bit Kreuzritter.
Hasn't Koch's postulates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates) been supplanted by the Bradford Hill criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria)?
If you mean that the scientists couldn't fulfil Koch's postualtes and so have adopted successively weaker criteria which fail to establish causality, yes.
Quote from: mikemac on March 16, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 16, 2020, 01:54:10 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 16, 2020, 08:40:19 AM
Kreuz,
My late mother did Vitamin C IV for her cancer....she died a year and a half later and funnily enough her tumour tracers started to climb within months of doing her course. Very expensive btw , €200 per IV. Oh and she passed a kidney stone 3 months before she died which is a side effect of Vit C in high dose.
Cancer? What does this have to do with issue at hand? Logic, please? And of course, nephrotoxic chemotherapy drugs will have had nothing to do with kidney stones. Muh medical professionals told me so.
VITAMIN C DOES NOT CAUSE KIDNEY STONES
http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v01n07.shtml (http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v01n07.shtml)
I've read anything over, I think it was 2000 mg of vitamin c per day would be just eliminated with urine, a waist. Is it and why would it be any different with intravenous vitamin c?
[/quote]
Intravenous administration maximises biovailability and blood serum levels,a nd in a way oral administration cannot.
QuoteThe administration of high-dose vitamin C is often considered as unnecessary or even alternative medicine. This does not do justice to the strong scientific base of the pleiotropic beneficial effects of high i. v. doses (not enteral!) as demonstrated in multiple preclinical and clinical studies [11]. Beyond simply preventing scurvy by the correction of vitamin C deficiency, supraphysiological vitamin C levels can exert very strong multifaceted effects. With enteral supplementation, maximally tolerated dosages (3–4 g/day) cannot achieve plasma levels of > 250 ?mol/l because of saturable absorption [12]. Intravenous vitamin C administration can generate much higher plasma levels, thus yielding more potent antioxidative effects. The underlying pathophysiological mechanisms have now been well elucidated (Fig. 3).
https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-018-1996-y (https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-018-1996-y)
Regardless, it works. It works for sepsis. I've experienced that it works in "flu". In ways that taking a daily oral dose of 2g doesn't.
Why I'll leave to the molecular biologists to figure out.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 11:22:53 AM
Dr. Li Wenliang was just 33 years old. He was exposed to a large viral load from the patient he was treating. That exposure eventually killed him, something that wouldn't have happened with a normal flu.
You have no way to substantiate this claim, that he was infected with a high "viral load" or that he was killed by it. PCR and antibody tests can't do it.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 11:32:53 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 20, 2020, 11:17:38 AM
Okay I'll humour you for a bit Kreuzritter.
Hasn't Koch's postulates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates) been supplanted by the Bradford Hill criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria)?
If you mean that the scientists couldn't fulfil Koch's postualtes and so have adopted successively weaker criteria which fail to establish causality, yes.
...
Okay, but what do you make of this quote from the Koch's postulates page?
QuoteKoch applied the postulates to describe the etiology of cholera and tuberculosis, but they have been controversially generalized to other diseases. These postulates were generated prior to understanding of modern concepts in microbial pathogenesis that cannot be examined using Koch's postulates, including viruses (which are obligate cellular parasites) and asymptomatic carriers. They have largely been supplanted by other criteria such as the Bradford Hill criteria for infectious disease causality in modern public health.
Thanks for answering my previous question regarding intravenous vitamin c.
Cases at 275,000. Deaths cross 11,000. Death toll crosses 5000 in Europe, with Italy, Spain and Germany reporting a large increase in number of infections. In Italy, deaths increased by the largest per day increase recorded yet, 627. Per the earlier number, that's more than a 35% increase from the ADI of 1750, over a third. Further, 365*627 is around 230,000. We saw Italian deaths from pneumonia were around 9000 annually. These two numbers are not even in the same range or order; what is more, the trajectory is worse than linear, but suggests a path of exponential increase - even the last four days alone bear that out, as those observing it here should know by now. More on this below: "The death toll from the new coronavirus has passed 5,000 in Europe - the new epicentre of the pandemic - as Italy, Germany and Spain reported a steep rise in infections.
Italy announced 627 more deaths on Friday, the biggest day-to-day increase in the country's four-week epidemic, a day after surpassing China's death toll. " https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/coronavirus-live-updates-italy-overtakes-china-death-toll-200319224219279.html
And: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/3/20/21179040/coronavirus-us-italy-not-overreacting
"To someone who hasn't been following the pandemic's spread closely, the drastic measures indeed might seem like an overreaction. After all, around 13,000 cases and 200 deaths — as of Thursday — in a country of 330 million doesn't seem that bad. Is it really worth shutting down the economy, a measure that will of course have horrific costs of its own, for such a small toll?
But the numbers mask what's really causing experts to worry: The coronavirus's trajectory is putting us on a course of many, many more cases and many, many more deaths unless we do something drastic.
In other words, there's a simple answer to the question: No, we're not overreacting.
To explain why we're not overreacting, we need to look to the experience of another country going through the coronavirus crisis: Italy. Here's a chart comparing the country's cases to the US's."
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jQFC4klGZjCZOXYw0R2q941sUAY=/0x0:1800x3202/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1800x3202):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19821132/italy_us_gap_9.jpg)
Quote from: queen.saints on March 20, 2020, 11:01:04 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: diaduit on March 20, 2020, 07:55:45 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 04:26:15 AM
In terms of flu deaths, nothing unusual is happening in Italy.
On average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy. In winter the rate will be higher and in summer lower.
Italy's Wednesday death toll from the coronavirus was 475.
Nothing unusual is happening in Italy in terms of flu deaths.
The panic mongers here have nothing to say.
They just double down and continue to spread the hype.
So the chaotic scenes of people on trolleys gasping for air and waiting for a ventilator happens every year!! The drs and nurses do a round of Whats app and facebook posts all distressed over their patients!!
If its not an anomaly then why are the hospitals behaving like it is??
How do any of us know what's going on in Italian hospitals? From Facebook and Whats app posts?
Show me a scene from an 'Italian hospital' that proves beyond doubt that there's a corona pandemic happening in Italy. All of those images and Twitter reports could be fake. How would you know if they weren't?
I have some experience, not a lot but enough, of how the media works to know how easy it is to manipulate words and images to create a desired effect.
The figures suggest that nothing more than a typical winter flu season is happening in Italy. Meanwhile martial law is being enforced and the citizens of California are being told to stay at home.
It's psyop designed to lock everyone down.
I'm not saying this is true of all, but many European hospitals are like something you'd find in the third world. When they kicked out all the nuns and replaced them with foreign labor, they turned into exactly what you'd expect. I know an old man who had a stroke last fall and went to the hospital where he spent days lying on his back in the corridor before being seen. He's still barely able to walk from the damage done to his back, even though he's recovered from the stroke. I know another man in his nineties who spent six days waiting in a corridor. You hear stories like this all the time, and that's just standard, let alone during flu season. It doesn't seem very likely that the situation is better in Iran or China.
I must admit, when I looked at those pictures of the Italian hospital with all those patients crammed in everywhere and on ventilators, I thought the scene looked like a typical UK NHS hospital - on a good day. I've seen far worse in NHS hospitals.
As for the cases you describe, they're standard practice these days. However, there was a golden period of sorts, immediately after kicking out all the nuns, when NHS care was quite excellent. But then they decided to save money by recruiting already trained medical personnel from abroad and cutting down on training at home. I doubt if they even considered the morality of poaching trained medical professionals from developing nations though.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 11:06:34 AM
The healthcare system in Northern Italy is one of the best in the world, especially regarding pulmonary diseases. That's one of the divine ironies of this situation.
And the winter flu death rate in Italy is one of the highest in Europe.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 10:11:43 AM
Question: in all the splendid variety of topics that Kreuzhammed (pbuh) has weighed in on, can anyone remember him qualifying his position with a phrase like "I think," or "in my opinion," or "for what it's worth," or "I'm not sure, but"? Or does he deliver every opinion of his - even such opinions as that the Council of Trent is for retards - in the tones of personal infallibility?
It's not my opinon that
a) This alleged virus has not been isolated and shown to fufil Robert Koch's postulates of germ theory and therefore has not been shown to fulfil necessary citeria for its existence as an exogenous disease-causing agent.
Until this thread I had never heard of Koch's Postulates, and I will not attempt to madly google them and act like I'm in the know for the sake of refuting you. I think 99% of people are in my boat.
What we see is, on the one hand, every virologist and doctor on the planet in agreement that this virus does exist (notwithstanding an inability to fulfill certain 19th Century postulates), and on the other, an anonymous fellow on the internet claiming he knows better. In brief, you again appear to be mistaking your mere opinion for a known fact.
And yes, the medical profession contains quacks and grifters and bears a large portion of responsibility for a lot of malpractice and downright mortal sin. We've all personally seen this. Many of us have also seen and experienced some incredible benefits from the use of modern medicine, and for us the rhetoric that nothing good can come of listening to doctors rings hollow.
QuoteIt's also not my opinion that
a) Whether there is a pandemic or not, hospitals are being flooded with the sick because the sick are under the perception that they have acquired a dangerous disease which is in need of urgent medical attention.
Likewise, the idea that ICUs are unable to distinguish between healthy people who think they need urgent care, and people who really do, is merely your opinion.
Quotec) Appealing to such pereptions is rejected by the scientific method.
The idea that political response to a pandemic must be governed strictly by the scientific method is likewise merely your opinion. In fact it is a disastrous approach to a problem of this kind, where waiting until the severity is precisely known could easily be too late.
Thank you for taking a more measured tone, I appreciate it and will do likewise.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 11:06:34 AM
Quote from: queen.saints on March 20, 2020, 11:01:04 AMI'm not saying this is true of all, but many European hospitals are like something you'd find in the third world.
The healthcare system in Northern Italy is one of the best in the world, especially regarding pulmonary diseases. That's one of the divine ironies of this situation.
Nevertheless, no healthcare system, no matter how good it may be, can withstand thousands of people flocking to the ER everyday. That's the situation you'll have to avoid in the US if you don't want public calamity to ensue.
You could be right, but "healthcare system" doesn't necessarily equal "hospital care". The "healthcare system" in Europe is obviously miles better than the US. However, in America, I've never heard of anyone spending almost a week in a hallway. I've never heard of waiting all day for water (happened to me). Just from personal experience, you can feel the billions of dollars being pumped into American hospitals, and that's just not the case in Europe.
On that same note, in the link below Switzerland ranks 20, while France is number 1, Italy 2, and Ireland 19. The hospitals in Switzerland are nicer than the ones in France; they're a LOT nicer than the hospitals in Ireland. But their healthcare system somehow ranks lower, even though the article itself mentions how wonderful the Swiss system is. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the ranking.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/
Country
Healthcare Rank
Population 2020
France 1 65,273,511
Italy 2 60,461,826
San Marino 3 33,931
Andorra 4 77,265
Malta 5 441,543
Singapore 6 5,850,342
Spain 7 46,754,778
Oman 8 5,106,626
Austria 9 9,006,398
Japan 10 126,476,461
Norway 11 5,421,241
Portugal 12 10,196,709
Monaco 13 39,242
Greece 14 10,423,054
Iceland 15 341,243
Luxembourg 16 625,978
Netherlands 17 17,134,872
United Kingdom 18 67,886,011
Ireland 19 4,937,786
Switzerland 20 8,654,622
Belgium 21 11,589,623
QuotePerhaps, then, a modified, temporary socialism is warranted? One where the usurers are taxed of every last penny they have and the funds used to pay off the debt?
In our case the usurors are insurance companies and pensions.
The problem with usurious collapse is that there is no way out unless everyone loses. Which is politically impossible, so we will go Detroit. As stated above our grand kids are already screwed.
One thing you could do is outlaw usury payments so only the principle is due and outlaw future usury. You have to immediately balance the US budget and run a slight surplus. You also need to slap on big tariffs until the trade deficit is eliminated. This would be the least painful, but you would have the following consequences: 1 year recession due to huge government layoffs, pensions cut to say 90 cents on the dollar, and somewhat higher prices due to more expensive local goods. You could alleviate the last by swapping the tariff for corporate income tax cuts, and make it revenue neutral. So maybe we end up with a 15% tariff and 5% corporate rate.
Quote from: queen.saints on March 20, 2020, 12:15:35 PM
You could be right, but "healthcare system" doesn't necessarily equal "hospital care".
No, it's more comprehensive. As your link states, quoting from the WHO,
"a well-functioning healthcare system requires a steady financing mechanism, a properly-trained and adequately-paid workforce, well-maintained facilities, and access to reliable information to base decisions on."Having said that, you can't have an excellent healthcare system and third world hospitals at the same time.
QuoteThe "healthcare system" in Europe is obviously miles better than the US. However, in America, I've never heard of anyone spending almost a week in a hallway. I've never heard of waiting all day for water (happened to me). Just from personal experience, you can feel the billions of dollars being pumped into American hospitals, and that's just not the case in Europe.
Both systems cannot be compared. In the US, healthcare facilities are largely owned and operated by private sector businesses. Private hospitals are always less crowded than public hospitals where everyone, regardless of the weight of their wallets, can flock in.
Quote from: james03 on March 20, 2020, 08:19:20 AM
For those who are critical of calling this a mild disease, consider that there are consequences to treating this like the plague. Illinois is now de facto bankrupt. We will either create $200 BILLION in debt for our unborn grandkids to pay off (with usury), or we will have to slash the pensions of these people. People who are retired and have a 401K plan are in serious trouble. New Jersey, California, Connecticut, and Kentucky will likely go bankrupt. Millions will lose their jobs. I was predicting a $30 TRILLION debt load by 2024. Likely we'll breech that in 2021. Again this means that our unborn grand kids will do without street lights, good roads, and police protection while paying a 70% tax rate to the usurors. Or we go bankrupt (we have to), and everyone will lose their pensions and life insurance.
So this is not simply a case of "playing it safe". We might have just detonated our economy. If it turns out that quinine is the miracle drug (positive effect on market psychology) and the market rebounds due to the bail out, we'll survive.
But this is also a glimpse into the future that our grand kids will have. Even if we escape a complete collapse, this WILL happen, and not 50 years out. It happens when the world loses faith in the dollar. Usury is pure evil.
Utterly. And I would like to scream this from the housetops. Every bleepin' press conference -- of anyone's, any group's, truly makes me want to call out an Emperor With No Clothes. Whether a country is socialistic or capitalistic in its economy, a tanked economy makes people suffer. The rate of our economy, and our micro economies within it, that collectively do or don't determine whether our national economy is healthy, is falling exponentially faster than the virus is rising, per capita.
It's a slippery slope toward a Third World economy from a First, simply because every aspect of it is so interconnected: governmental structure, transportation, housing, and food. Lose one of those elements, and you are well on a fast trajectory toward chaos, anarchy, and death. Reduced availability of all of the services that have distinguished the U.S. from so many of our dysfunctional neighbors.
I want the medical "experts" to shut up already. They are one important but not singularly important part of the equation. Not normally a violent person, I wanted to punch a doctor in the face last night as he was waxing ecstatically about lockdowns. To him -- and he admitted this -- the whole world is merely a lab, with his single goal to defeat a virus. But Dr. whoever you are, we are not mere specimens. Take off your white coat -- you, too, Dr. Fauci -- and get a reality check. The United States of America is not merely your personal giant hospital.
What they and governors are trying to do is compensate for the frustration of trying to manage 331M+ people over an enormous land mass, and their reaction is to halt activity in its tracks so that they can accomplish this overnight.
There are three countries which have succeeded in containing the virus with exceptional speed, and keeping it contained. Hello,
they are tiny countries by comparison to us: Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan. They are also far more homogeneous in a variety of homogeneities than we are -- culturally, especially. They have much less to manage and more ability to manage it.
Lose economic strength, and also lose global political power rather rapidly. Call in the National Guard and whatever other military forces the individual megalomaniacs want to own to establish their little empires, and you increase your military vulnerability on top of everything else.
COVID-19 is a challenge; it's a problem, particularly two states. I'll even go so far as to concede it's a temporary crisis. But it is hardly "an emergency." Only if optimum wellness of every citizen is your standard for essential health of a whole nation would you call a new virus of any sort "an emergency." It's troubling; it requires aggressive action, but shutting down entire segments of the economy and reducing people to additional kinds of desperation, besides medical, is a different form of killing and unnecessarily cruel.
Just 8 minutes long. Worth it.
In December 2019 the Chinese authorities notified the world that a virus was spreading through their communities. In the following months it spread to other countries, with cases doubling within days. This virus is the "Severe acute respiratory syndrome-related coronavirus 2", that causes the disease called COVID19, and that everyone simply calls Coronavirus. What actually happens when it infects a human and what should we all do?
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtN-goy9VOY[/yt]
Quote from: mikemac on March 20, 2020, 11:52:10 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 11:32:53 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 20, 2020, 11:17:38 AM
Okay I'll humour you for a bit Kreuzritter.
Hasn't Koch's postulates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates) been supplanted by the Bradford Hill criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria)?
If you mean that the scientists couldn't fulfil Koch's postualtes and so have adopted successively weaker criteria which fail to establish causality, yes.
...
Okay, but what do you make of this quote from the Koch's postulates page?
QuoteKoch applied the postulates to describe the etiology of cholera and tuberculosis, but they have been controversially generalized to other diseases. These postulates were generated prior to understanding of modern concepts in microbial pathogenesis that cannot be examined using Koch's postulates, including viruses (which are obligate cellular parasites) and asymptomatic carriers. They have largely been supplanted by other criteria such as the Bradford Hill criteria for infectious disease causality in modern public health.
This is exactly what I mean. The translation there is that scientists could not get their hypothesised "viruses" to fulfil Koch's postulates, so they developed new
ad hoc criteria that would allow them to maintain their viral theory of disease and demonstrate "causation" in specific cases. Of course "viruses" cannot be examined using Koch's postulates; firstly they are merely hypothesised from various phenomena and scientists in principle cannot purify these "organisms" from a supposedly infected case and transfer them into a healthy animal to, contrary to a control group injected in the same way with a sterile version of the solution, induce a specific disease; secondly, these phenomena are not found in every case of the symptoms associated with the disease, nor, what they here call asymptomatic carriers, is every case of these phenomena being found associated with such symptoms, meaning that the "virus" is neither necessary nor sufficient to induce the disease 9but is still identified as a "cause" - this is insane).
And these retards are still operating on the assumption of the genome as the unchanging blueprint and control system, the book of life, of the entire human organism, a notion that is now ancient history in the science of molecular genetics, even if it's still the popular perception and drummed into heads at school. Because once you pull that rug from under their feet, the basis for identifying the existence of these "viruses" by detecting "foreign" genetic material is destroyed.
Quote from: clau clau on March 20, 2020, 08:20:09 AM
Quote from: diaduit on March 20, 2020, 07:55:45 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 04:26:15 AM
In terms of flu deaths, nothing unusual is happening in Italy.
On average, 1,750 people die every day in Italy. In winter the rate will be higher and in summer lower.
Italy's Wednesday death toll from the coronavirus was 475.
Nothing unusual is happening in Italy in terms of flu deaths.
Just to add, Dad still in hospital and upto today still not one case of the virus in the hospital.
The panic mongers here have nothing to say.
They just double down and continue to spread the hype.
So the chaotic scenes of people on trolleys gasping for air and waiting for a ventilator happens every year!! The drs and nurses do a round of Whats app and facebook posts all distressed over their patients!!
If its not an anomaly then why are the hospitals behaving like it is??
I am not saying it does not happen but what is the SOURCE of the chaotic scenes.
Can you provide a link. Does it say CNN or BBC or CBS.
I went on Youtube today and typed something like "Chaotic scenes in Italy" and EVERY SINGLE RESULT for at least 5 pages was major news broadcasters.
Where is all the independent reporting.
Can anybody post a link of what looks like independent journalism of the chaotic scenes.
Yes Clau , you are right, independent journalism usually can expose fake news. However there aren't any videos of drs shrugging their shoulders saying what are ye on about , its business as usual.
Dad is still in hospital and as of today , no virus case yet. It seems it is mostly in the East of the country which is funnily enough, the most liberal part of the country.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 01:32:45 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 20, 2020, 11:52:10 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 11:32:53 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 20, 2020, 11:17:38 AM
Okay I'll humour you for a bit Kreuzritter.
Hasn't Koch's postulates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates) been supplanted by the Bradford Hill criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria)?
If you mean that the scientists couldn't fulfil Koch's postualtes and so have adopted successively weaker criteria which fail to establish causality, yes.
...
Okay, but what do you make of this quote from the Koch's postulates page?
QuoteKoch applied the postulates to describe the etiology of cholera and tuberculosis, but they have been controversially generalized to other diseases. These postulates were generated prior to understanding of modern concepts in microbial pathogenesis that cannot be examined using Koch's postulates, including viruses (which are obligate cellular parasites) and asymptomatic carriers. They have largely been supplanted by other criteria such as the Bradford Hill criteria for infectious disease causality in modern public health.
This is exactly what I mean. The translation there is that scientists could not get their hypothesised "viruses" to fulfil Koch's postulates, so they developed new ad hoc criteria that would allow them to maintain their viral theory of disease and demonstrate "causation" in specific cases. Of course "viruses" cannot be examined using Koch's postulates; firstly they are merely hypothesised from various phenomena and scientists in principle cannot purify these "organisms" from a supposedly infected case and transfer them into a healthy animal to, contrary to a control group injected in the same way with a sterile version of the solution, induce a specific disease; secondly, these phenomena are not found in every case of the symptoms associated with the disease, nor, what they here call asymptomatic carriers, is every case of these phenomena being found associated with such symptoms, meaning that the "virus" is neither necessary nor sufficient to induce the disease 9but is still identified as a "cause" - this is insane).
And these retards are still operating on the assumption of the genome as the unchanging blueprint and control system, the book of life, of the entire human organism, a notion that is now ancient history in the science of molecular genetics, even if it's still the popular perception and drummed into heads at school. Because once you pull that rug from under their feet, the basis for identifying the existence of these "viruses" by detecting "foreign" genetic material is destroyed.
But isn't Koch's postulates an outdated system from 130 years ago? It seems like it.
From the page previously posted.
QuoteKoch's postulates (/?k??x/)[2] are four criteria designed to establish a causative relationship between a microbe and a disease. The postulates, later entirely disproven as naive and oversimplified, were formulated by Robert Koch and Friedrich Loeffler in 1884, based on earlier concepts described by Jakob Henle,[3] and refined and published by Koch in 1890.
Koch's Postulates
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/kochs-postulates
QuoteThe Evolution of Koch's Postulates
Jonathan Cohen, in Infectious Diseases (Fourth Edition), 2017
Conclusions – and a Note of Caution
Koch's postulates were invaluable at the time they were developed and remain largely valid for a relatively small number of defined circumstances in which bacteria can be precisely tied to the cause of a particular clinical syndrome. But in a world in which viruses cause cancer and noncultivable bacteria can be demonstrated by molecular probes, Koch's postulates are no longer fit for purpose. What is more, used uncritically they have the potential to mislead.16 Their main purpose now is to provide a framework to ensure that scientific rigor is applied when proposing an organism as the cause of a disease – exactly as Koch intended when he first conceived them.
The potential role of infectious agents in diseases of unknown etiology
Steven M. Opal, in Infectious Diseases (Third Edition), 2010
CULTURE-INDEPENDENT TECHNIQUES TO DETECT NOVEL PATHOGENS
In the genomic age in which we now live, Koch's postulates need to be modified or even discarded as an obsolete system to define the essential elements of what identifies a microbial pathogen.
...
I thought I'd post a source I've been using myself:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Distributions here:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/
This page is also helpful and provides statistical study sources:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-symptoms/#pre
And another one. Although a month old, I believe the trend headlined has been maintained.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/18/coronavirus-is-more-fatal-in-men-than-women-major-study-suggests.html
It's important that the public read some of the actual data instead of listening to generalized statistics which magnify the situation artificially.
Please note differences in rates of death tied to underlying conditions. One of the real problems with the sensationalistic media is their refusal to contextualize any of the deaths reported, especially locally. Last night our local news broadcast reported one young death (30's, I think). On and on about how tragic it was and "how it could happen to anyone." Very, very, very tail end of audio, spoken like a footnote was, "the man had struggled his whole life with respiratory problems."
Other young people who have died were plagued by immunodeficiency problems as an underlying susceptibility or had other compromises to their system, some biological-genetic, others lifestyle.
Miriam M, bravo! spot on.
This is very well orchestrated; this whole situation is preposterous and diabolical. If we continue like this then we'll surely become a third world economy. Anarchy and chaos will be the end of it and then millions will in fact lose their lives due to crime and hunger. It will come down with a vengeance. No Mass, no grace. it's that simple. If our bishop don;t get their act together we will soon find ourselves enveloped in darkness never seen before. We are experiencing the diabolical disorientation within and without the Church.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: queen.saints on March 20, 2020, 12:15:35 PM
You could be right, but "healthcare system" doesn't necessarily equal "hospital care".
No, it's more comprehensive. As your link states, quoting from the WHO, "a well-functioning healthcare system requires a steady financing mechanism, a properly-trained and adequately-paid workforce, well-maintained facilities, and access to reliable information to base decisions on."
Having said that, you can't have an excellent healthcare system and third world hospitals at the same time.
QuoteThe "healthcare system" in Europe is obviously miles better than the US. However, in America, I've never heard of anyone spending almost a week in a hallway. I've never heard of waiting all day for water (happened to me). Just from personal experience, you can feel the billions of dollars being pumped into American hospitals, and that's just not the case in Europe.
Both systems cannot be compared. In the US, healthcare facilities are largely owned and operated by private sector businesses. Private hospitals are always less crowded than public hospitals where everyone, regardless of the weight of their wallets, can flock in.
You often do have an excellent health-care system and hospitals that would be considered shocking by American standards. You might also say, you can't be number one in the world for healthcare and also have months long waiting lists for the GP and dentist. Yet, that's just the case in France.
I'm not the one comparing the systems. They are being compared in millions of people's minds when they see a picture of an overwhelmed Italian hospital that looks like most of the hospitals in Europe on any given day and they subconsciously think, "That doesn't look like any of the hospitals I've seen on tv. Things must be totally out of control."
"Italy can often seem like a country of extremes. The extreme beauty of a Bernini fountain right next to a big pile of uncollected garbage. Prestigious universities filled with learned professors, but sorely lacking resources and adequate classroom space. Physicians that are highly skilled, but trapped inside facilities that were already outdated when they were built in the 1950's."
https://rickzullo.com/healthcare-in-italy/
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 20, 2020, 02:54:59 PM
And another one. Although a month old, I believe the trend headlined has been maintained.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/18/coronavirus-is-more-fatal-in-men-than-women-major-study-suggests.html
It's important that the public read some of the actual data instead of listening to generalized statistics which magnify the situation artificially.
Please note differences in rates of death tied to underlying conditions. One of the real problems with the sensationalistic media is their refusal to contextualize any of the deaths reported, especially locally. Last night our local news broadcast reported one young death (30's, I think). On and on about how tragic it was and "how it could happen to anyone." Very, very, very tail end of audio, spoken like a footnote was, "the man had struggled his whole life with respiratory problems."
Other young people who have died were plagued by immunodeficiency problems as an underlying susceptibility or had other compromises to their system, some biological-genetic, others lifestyle.
Precisely. From one of Awkward's posts pages ago:
QuoteBut Prof Ricciardi added that Italy's death rate may also appear high because of how doctors record fatalities.
The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.
On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three," he says.
Quote from: mikemac on March 20, 2020, 02:10:28 PM
But isn't Koch's postulates an outdated system from 130 years ago? It seems like it.
Koch's postulates are sound from the perspective of the philosophy of causality and logic, although insufficient to prove "causation"; they are "outdated" according to the adherents to the viral theory of disease because they cannot get their postulated viral agents of disease to fulfil them.
"Viruses" may or may not cause disease in a host, who knows why, and though we can't tell you all the factors involved, and we can't observe the actual process from start to finish, and we sure as hell can't use our theory to predict anything regarding who is going to actually get sick, and we sure as damned hell can't prevent disease or cure you once you're sick using technology developed on its basis, we know that when there are symptoms in the host and we find the markers of our virus, the virus is behind them. It must be, because we know that viruses cause disease. Our postulates, which we set up to do so, do so. So see, our viral theory of disease is confirmed, because we can show that these viruses caused these diseases.
QuoteFrom the page previously posted.
QuoteKoch's postulates (/?k??x/)[2] are four criteria designed to establish a causative relationship between a microbe and a disease. The postulates, later entirely disproven as naive and oversimplified, were formulated by Robert Koch and Friedrich Loeffler in 1884, based on earlier concepts described by Jakob Henle,[3] and refined and published by Koch in 1890.
"Disproven", in other words, our viral theory of disease is correct, therefore Koch's postulates of necessary conditions for a pathogen to fulfil, so as not to be disqualified from causing disease, must be "false".
QuoteKoch's postulates were invaluable at the time they were developed and remain largely valid for a relatively small number of defined circumstances in which bacteria can be precisely tied to the cause of a particular clinical syndrome.
Note the words. Koch's postulates "remain valid" when one can actually demonstrate that a microbe causes a disease! You can't make this up.
QuoteBut in a world in which viruses cause cancer and noncultivable bacteria can be demonstrated by molecular probes, Koch's postulates are no longer fit for purpose.
But in a world in which Koch's postulates would invalidate our claim to have proven causation of a disease by an hypothesised microbe, Koch's postulates are not fit for the purpose of maintaining our theory, insisting that an un-isolateable "virus" causes disease, and profiting from the antivirals and vaccines produced by the big pharma corporations that employ us and fund our research grants.
QuoteWhat is more, used uncritically they have the potential to mislead.16 Their main purpose now is to provide a framework to ensure that scientific rigor is applied when proposing an organism as the cause of a disease – exactly as Koch intended when he first conceived them.
Which they logically fail to do with viruses.
QuoteIn the genomic age in which we now live, Koch's postulates need to be modified or even discarded as an obsolete system to define the essential elements of what identifies a microbial pathogen.
Nothing will ever change the fact that when one has an invisible organism which cannot be isolated from a diseased individual and, in its purified form, shown to lead to the specific disease when used to infect a healthy individual, and whose alleged presence in an organism is, by their own measures, neither necessary nor sufficient to produce the specific symptoms associated with a disease, one cannot claim to have shown causation by their methods.
Enter the ad hoc hypothesis of "asymptomatic carriers".
I quote from the horse's mouth:
QuoteIn disease causation, most identified factors are neither necessary nor sufficient alone to produce disease
So A is not necessary to produce B. And A is not sufficient to produce B. But A is the the pillar, the foundation, the cornerstone, the cause of B, viruses are
the agents of polio, hepatitis C, cervical cancer, measles, AIDS, etc. Except when they aren't. By their own data, "viruses" may have some involvement some of the time. You know, like when it's HIV, it's AIDS; when it's not HIV, it's just tuberculosis. When it's HPV and no cancer, which is over 99% of the time, it's "asymptomatic carrier"; when it's HPV and cancer, it's HPV gave you cancer; and when it's cancer without HPV, it's just cancer. This is mind-numbingly stupid as a scientific theory.
But it gets better. Those poppers you took every night when you were screwing 30 men at a time, seven days a week, we know they are neurotoxic, destroy bone marrow and immune systems, and cause cancer, and those antibiotics and whatnot you've been on in perpetuity to deal with the repeated parasites and infections wreck immunity and microbiomes, but we found HIV in you, so that's what's killing you homosexuals. Same with you junkies. It's the needles, not the stuff you're injecting with them. And you kids, we know we laced your food with lead arsenate, and that we sprayed you with the DDT trucks, and we know that they are poisons that cause polio-like symptoms includingparalysis, but the polio virus is what made you sick, and our vaccine ended it, not stopping with these pesticides at the same time.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 20, 2020, 03:07:49 PM
Miriam M, bravo! spot on.
This is very well orchestrated; this whole situation is preposterous and diabolical. If we continue like this then we'll surely become a third world economy. Anarchy and chaos will be the end of it and then millions will in fact lose their lives due to crime and hunger. It will come down with a vengeance. No Mass, no grace. it's that simple. If our bishop don;t get their act together we will soon find ourselves enveloped in darkness never seen before. We are experiencing the diabolical disorientation within and without the Church.
Can you see any way we won't continue like this? The UK is being shut down from today as schools, cinemas, theatres, pubs, restaurants, clubs, sports centres are told to close, transport is pared back to a minimum and everyone is being told to stay at home.
Meanwhile, martial law is being imposed in Italy and New Yorkers and Californians are being increasingly restricted in their movements. In fact, it's impossible to keep up with the pace of the lockdowns. They're also rolling out across South America.
Are you affected yet? If not then a shock awaits you. I can't explain what it felt like when Boris Johnson made the announcement today. People are in a state of fear. You can see it in their eyes.
I agree with you that this is being orchestrated. But how to respond?
Click in the link to watch the video inside the hospital. It's about 5 minutes long.
Coronavirus: Italy's hardest-hit city wants you to see how COVID-19 is affecting its hospitals
The sheer numbers of people succumbing to the coronavirus is overwhelming every hospital in northern Italy.
In Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-they-call-it-the-apocalypse-inside-italys-hardest-hit-hospital-11960597).
(https://e3.365dm.com/20/03/1600x900/skynews-italy-coronavirus_4951296.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20200319221352)
Staff frantically wave us out of the way, pushing gurneys carrying men and women on mobile respirators - it's not chaos, but it is hectic. They rush past wards already rammed with beds all filled with people in terrible distress - gasping for air, clutching at their chests and at tubes pumping oxygen into their oxygen-starved lungs. I'm in the main hospital in Bergamo, the hardest-hit hospital in Italy in the hardest-hit town in the hardest-hit province, Lombardy - and it's just plain scary.
Masked, gloved and in a hazmat suit, my team and I are led through corridors full of gasping people who look terribly ill.
I ask what ward I am in.
"This isn't really a ward, it's a waiting room, we just have to use every bit of space," my guide, Vanna Toninelli, head of the hospital press office tells me.
The medical teams are fighting a war here and they are losing. The sheer numbers of people succumbing to the coronavirus is overwhelming every hospital in northern Italy - and it could easily overwhelm the rest of the country as well. The staff are working flat out trying to keep their patients from deteriorating further. They are trying to stop them from dying. In groups they crowd around the latest patients. Attaching monitors, drips and most importantly respirators. Without them the patients will simply go downhill fast. Really fast. Deadly fast.
It looks like an intensive care unit (ICU), but it is actually just an emergency arrivals ward. The ICU is full. The people being treated are new arrivals, but they look far worse than that. Anywhere else in the world they would be intensive care cases but here, to qualify, you are actually on the point of death, not just gravely ill. In this pandemic, gravely ill is considered a reasonable position. It really is that bad. The arrival of people here is an absolute constant. This killer pandemic is virtually out of control. We have all heard what has been going on here, but no journalist has been allowed in here to see it, until now. The city of Bergamo invited us in to show everyone what a catastrophic emergency, that nobody has ever experienced before, looks like. They want you to see it. They want the world's population to question their own governments' responses. Because there can be no excuse anymore that nobody knew. Italy did not. Now everyone else does.
Through plastic bubbles that fit over the heads of the most ill, staff struggle to communicate with patients. The weak can barely speak and above the noise of the ward and the constant bleep of heart monitors and breathing pumps, it's almost impossible to make out what they are saying. The bubbles are attempting to equalise the air pressure in the lungs. Nobody expected this, nobody even imagined they would be treating so many so quickly.
And for the record, it is NOT like flu, it is more often than not chronic pneumonia and it is killing hundreds here each day. The head of emergency care, Dr Roberto Cosentini, says they have never seen anything like it, and he and his staff are warning other countries, especially the UK, that they will see it soon.
"It's a very severe pneumonia, and so it's a massive strain for every health system, because we see every day 50 to 60 patients who come to our emergency department with pneumonia, and most of them are so severe they need very high volumes of oxygen. And so we had to reorganise our emergency room and our hospital [to] three levels of intensive care."
The Papa Giovanni XXII hospital is one of the most advanced in Europe, but even this gleaming mega hospital is on its knees. Bergamo is the absolute centre of this epidemic and the hospital is attempting to deal with a crisis that was never imagined. Many of the medical staff have worked or trained in the UK. Dr Lorenzo Grazioli worked in Leicester for a year. He says his friends have been ringing him constantly to get a sense of what it is like. He told me they are bracing themselves for the same and are very worried.
He, like every other doctor and nurse I spoke to, urged the UK to follow the example of China and Italy, and lock down everything straight away. It is, they say, the only way to slow the virus down: not beat it, slow it. "I have never felt so stressed in my life, I'm an intensivist, and I am quite used to intense moments, and the choices, and people are critical and die without any treatment, and you [usually] make the difference," he told me. But when you are at this point you realise that you are not enough. We are 100 anaesthetists, we are doing our best, but maybe it's not enough."
In labs, staff are continuously testing for the virus and attempting to find something that can beat it. They say it's a long way off. The problem facing health services across the world is that when the infection curve goes up it rockets, and all resources, all testing, all supplies are used up instantly. Multiple hospitals all making the same demands at the same time. It's crippling - here they call it the apocalypse. Bergamo wanted us to see this, as I have said, and they want to send a simple message: "Get ready."
Theres an interesting video interview Sky with the head doctor in that region, I'll take a look for it, but the article itself is histrionic and not well equipped to persuade our skeptics.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 04:44:31 PM
Click in the link to watch the video inside the hospital. It's about 5 minutes long.
Coronavirus: Italy's hardest-hit city wants you to see how COVID-19 is affecting its hospitals
The sheer numbers of people succumbing to the coronavirus is overwhelming every hospital in northern Italy.
In Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-they-call-it-the-apocalypse-inside-italys-hardest-hit-hospital-11960597).
(https://e3.365dm.com/20/03/1600x900/skynews-italy-coronavirus_4951296.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20200319221352)
Staff frantically wave us out of the way, pushing gurneys carrying men and women on mobile respirators - it's not chaos, but it is hectic. They rush past wards already rammed with beds all filled with people in terrible distress - gasping for air, clutching at their chests and at tubes pumping oxygen into their oxygen-starved lungs. I'm in the main hospital in Bergamo, the hardest-hit hospital in Italy in the hardest-hit town in the hardest-hit province, Lombardy - and it's just plain scary.
Masked, gloved and in a hazmat suit, my team and I are led through corridors full of gasping people who look terribly ill.
I ask what ward I am in.
"This isn't really a ward, it's a waiting room, we just have to use every bit of space," my guide, Vanna Toninelli, head of the hospital press office tells me.
The medical teams are fighting a war here and they are losing. The sheer numbers of people succumbing to the coronavirus is overwhelming every hospital in northern Italy - and it could easily overwhelm the rest of the country as well. The staff are working flat out trying to keep their patients from deteriorating further. They are trying to stop them from dying. In groups they crowd around the latest patients. Attaching monitors, drips and most importantly respirators. Without them the patients will simply go downhill fast. Really fast. Deadly fast.
It looks like an intensive care unit (ICU), but it is actually just an emergency arrivals ward. The ICU is full. The people being treated are new arrivals, but they look far worse than that. Anywhere else in the world they would be intensive care cases but here, to qualify, you are actually on the point of death, not just gravely ill. In this pandemic, gravely ill is considered a reasonable position. It really is that bad. The arrival of people here is an absolute constant. This killer pandemic is virtually out of control. We have all heard what has been going on here, but no journalist has been allowed in here to see it, until now. The city of Bergamo invited us in to show everyone what a catastrophic emergency, that nobody has ever experienced before, looks like. They want you to see it. They want the world's population to question their own governments' responses. Because there can be no excuse anymore that nobody knew. Italy did not. Now everyone else does.
Through plastic bubbles that fit over the heads of the most ill, staff struggle to communicate with patients. The weak can barely speak and above the noise of the ward and the constant bleep of heart monitors and breathing pumps, it's almost impossible to make out what they are saying. The bubbles are attempting to equalise the air pressure in the lungs. Nobody expected this, nobody even imagined they would be treating so many so quickly.
And for the record, it is NOT like flu, it is more often than not chronic pneumonia and it is killing hundreds here each day. The head of emergency care, Dr Roberto Cosentini, says they have never seen anything like it, and he and his staff are warning other countries, especially the UK, that they will see it soon.
"It's a very severe pneumonia, and so it's a massive strain for every health system, because we see every day 50 to 60 patients who come to our emergency department with pneumonia, and most of them are so severe they need very high volumes of oxygen. And so we had to reorganise our emergency room and our hospital [to] three levels of intensive care."
The Papa Giovanni XXII hospital is one of the most advanced in Europe, but even this gleaming mega hospital is on its knees. Bergamo is the absolute centre of this epidemic and the hospital is attempting to deal with a crisis that was never imagined. Many of the medical staff have worked or trained in the UK. Dr Lorenzo Grazioli worked in Leicester for a year. He says his friends have been ringing him constantly to get a sense of what it is like. He told me they are bracing themselves for the same and are very worried.
He, like every other doctor and nurse I spoke to, urged the UK to follow the example of China and Italy, and lock down everything straight away. It is, they say, the only way to slow the virus down: not beat it, slow it. "I have never felt so stressed in my life, I'm an intensivist, and I am quite used to intense moments, and the choices, and people are critical and die without any treatment, and you [usually] make the difference," he told me. But when you are at this point you realise that you are not enough. We are 100 anaesthetists, we are doing our best, but maybe it's not enough."
In labs, staff are continuously testing for the virus and attempting to find something that can beat it. They say it's a long way off. The problem facing health services across the world is that when the infection curve goes up it rockets, and all resources, all testing, all supplies are used up instantly. Multiple hospitals all making the same demands at the same time. It's crippling - here they call it the apocalypse. Bergamo wanted us to see this, as I have said, and they want to send a simple message: "Get ready."
Your typical NHS hospital in the UK looks worse than this.
What does this picture prove? Nothing more than the sad fact that hospitals aren't like the movies.
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 05:08:39 PM
Theres an interesting video interview Sky with the head doctor in that region, I'll take a look for it, but the article itself is histrionic and not well equipped to persuade our skeptics.
Yes, the tone of the article is too apocalyptic.
But the video itself is interesting, especially because it interviews a couple of doctors in the hospital there.
Thank you for a histrionic article and a fairly ordinary hospital picture.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:10:58 PM
What does this picture prove? Nothing more than the sad fact that hospitals aren't like the movies.
There's an actual video with a news piece inside the hospital, if you care to click the link.
The video only proves that they're experiencing a logistical and humanitarian nightmare. This is something you'd like to avoid in the US, I'd suspect.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 05:14:55 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:10:58 PM
What does this picture prove? Nothing more than the sad fact that hospitals aren't like the movies.
There's an actual video with a news piece inside the hospital, if you care to click the link.
The video only proves that they're experiencing a logistical and humanitarian nightmare. This is something you'd like to avoid in the US, I'd suspect.
Sky News????
The video doesn't prove anything.
If you separate the commentary from the images, what do you see? A hospital in a country which has the highest winter flu death rate in Europe? Now imagine watching the film with a different which explained just that, and giving the reasons.
Would you be equally convinced? Given how clever the media is, I'm betting you would.
Do Brits have a problem with Sky news? They seemed to have better coverage of Brexit than, say, the BBC.
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 05:22:14 PM
Do Brits have a problem with Sky news? They seemed to have better coverage of Brexit than, say, the BBC.
They're as bad as the BBC.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:23:03 PM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 05:22:14 PM
Do Brits have a problem with Sky news? They seemed to have better coverage of Brexit than, say, the BBC.
They're as bad as the BBC.
Are there any outlets that conservatives there prefer?
Coronavirus Report that Prompted Stronger U.S. Action: 1M Deaths Even with Extreme Prevention StepsThe novel coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. will last at least 18 months and "could include multiple waves of illness," prompting "significant shortages" for consumers and overwhelming the healthcare system, a federal government contingency plan leaked to the media this week warned.In
Breitbart (https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/20/coronavirus-report-that-prompted-stronger-u-s-action-1m-deaths-even-with-extreme-prevention-steps/).
(https://media.breitbart.com/media/2020/03/AP_20080538982532-640x480.jpg)
President Donald Trump's anti-coronavirus plan, dated March 13 and delivered to policymakers, echoed the findings of a March 16 report by the U.K.'s Imperial College, which also found that the outbreak could "potentially" last "18 month or more" in the U.S. and strain the healthcare system "many times over." The Imperial College's epidemiology report reportedly helped push the Trump administration to escalate its efforts to combat the deadly and highly contagious disease, the New York Times reported Tuesday, citing unnamed American officials. Jeremy Young, an assistant professor at Utah's Dixie State University, broke down the Imperial College team's findings on Twitter:
QuoteWe can now read the Imperial College report on COVID-19 that led to the extreme measures we've seen in the US this week. Read it; it's terrifying. I'll offer a summary in this thread; please correct me if I've gotten it wrong.https://t.co/AwE2cHIbeJ — Jeremy C. Young (@jeremycyoung) March 17, 2020
While Trump's anti-coronavirus plan does not provide any information on infection fatalities, the Imperial College team predicted that the more intensive and socially disruptive the intervention measures are, the fewer people will die. The Imperial College team was able to make its predictions by entering coronavirus infection and death rates from China, South Korea, and Italy into epidemic modeling software and running simulations of what can happen in the United States. Even with three months of a combination of social distancing of people over 70, the isolation of suspect cases, and having their families quarantined — described as the mitigation strategy — there would be "1.1-1.2 million" deaths in the United States, and the health system would be "overwhelmed many times over," Imperial College found. Mitigation would slow but not necessarily stop the spread of the virus, "reducing peak healthcare demand while protecting those most at risk of severe disease from infection," the researchers explained in the report.
QuoteThis mitigation strategy is what you've seen a lot of people talking about when they say we should "flatten the curve": try to slow the spread of the disease to the people most likely to die from it, to avoid overwhelming hospitals. — Jeremy C. Young (@jeremycyoung) March 17, 2020
Reducing the case numbers to low levels or eliminating human-to-human transmission, described as the suppression strategy, would require social distancing of the entire population, combined with home isolation of cases and the quarantine of their family, as well as shutting down public gatherings and most work places in addition to school and university closures. The intervention measures required for suppression would have to remain in place until a vaccine becomes available in 12-18 months or more.
QuoteDuring those 18 months, things are going to be very difficult and very scary. Our economy and society will be disrupted in profound ways. And if suppression actually works, it will feel like we're doing all this for nothing, because infection and death rates will remain low. — Jeremy C. Young (@jeremycyoung) March 17, 2020
With the suppression strategy, fatalities would peak at a few thousand deaths, then go down. Imperial College warned that transmission would "quickly rebound if interventions are relaxed."
QuoteSuppression works! The death rate in the US peaks 3 weeks from now at a few thousand deaths, then goes down. We hit but don't exceed the number of available ventilators. The nightmarish death tolls from the rest of the study disappear. — Jeremy C. Young (@jeremycyoung) March 17, 2020
After the 1st suppression period ends in July, we could probably lift restrictions for a month, followed by 2 more months of suppression, in a repeating pattern without triggering an outbreak or overwhelming the ventilator supply. Staggering breaks by city could do a bit better. — Jeremy C. Young (@jeremycyoung) March 17, 2020
If nothing is done to break chains of transmission, coronavirus-related fatalities will reach "2.2 million in the US, not accounting for the potential negative effects of health systems being overwhelmed on mortality," the Imperial College report said. About 80 percent of the population would also be infected by the virus absent any action, the report added.
QuoteHere's what would happen: 80% of Americans would get the disease. 0.9% of them would die. Between 4 and 8 percent of all Americans over the age of 70 would die. 2.2 million Americans would die from the virus itself. — Jeremy C. Young (@jeremycyoung) March 17, 2020
Asked when can Americans expect their lives to go back to normal during a press conference Thursday, Trump did not provide a specific time frame. "I hope very soon. We'll see. This is uncharted territory," he said. Echoing the Imperial College report while briefing reporters alongside Trump, Dr. Deborah Birx, the coordinator of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, declared:
Quote[Modeling studies show] that if you add these things [intervention measures] together, they have a bigger impact than separately. And so those are part of the decision-making. We had a whole group of modelers in yesterday. They're compositing all the data together to look at this carefully because everyone has those same questions of what the impact [of the intervention measures] will be and what pieces could essentially be removed, and you still have the same level of impact in decreasing the spread of the virus. The absolute key to this, though, is every single American looking at the President's guidelines and taking it seriously.
Birx noted that state and local governments will ultimately decide how long the intervention measures will be in place. Trump and Birx acknowledged that Americans are pulling together as a nation to combat the coronavirus and for the most part doing what they are supposed to be doing when it comes to following guidelines to hinder the spread of the virus. The U.S. public may have to resign itself to over one million deaths (mitigation strategy) given that reducing the number of cases to the least amount possible (suppression strategy) may be unrealistic because of the detrimental impact 18 months or more of intervention measures will have on the economy.
Imperial College acknowledged that imposing non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs), such as social distancing and quarantines, for 18 months or more would be an unprecedented feat that would have a "profound" impact on society and the economy. "We emphasize that is not at all certain that suppression will succeed long term; no public health intervention with such disruptive effects on society has been previously attempted for such a long duration of time. How populations and societies will respond remains unclear," the report said. Nevertheless, it concluded that "epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time."
The U.S. healthcare system will be overwhelmed even if the United States takes the less restrictive route to stem the spread of the coronavirus. Under the most optimistic mitigation strategy, the Imperial College noted, "The surge limits for both general ward and ICU [intensive care unit] beds would be exceeded by at least 8-fold." The Trump administration issued its 100-page plan on Friday, the same day the president declared a national emergency.
Consistent with the Imperial College report, the plan presented a grim prognosis for the spread of the disease and highlighted a response that would require action from agencies across the U.S. government and possibly employing special presidential powers to mobilize the private sector. Trump has already announced that he would use the Defense Production Act of 1950 to address severe shortages of supplies needed for combating the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. The Cold War-era law forces the American industry to intensify the production of essential equipment and supplies — ventilators, respirators, and protective gear for healthcare workers. Besides a vaccine, the U.S. is also working on developing other medicinal therapies to combat coronavirus symptoms that could take a few months to disseminate, Trump's coronavirus task force indicated on Thursday.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:15:51 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 05:14:55 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:10:58 PM
What does this picture prove? Nothing more than the sad fact that hospitals aren't like the movies.
There's an actual video with a news piece inside the hospital, if you care to click the link.
The video only proves that they're experiencing a logistical and humanitarian nightmare. This is something you'd like to avoid in the US, I'd suspect.
Sky News????
The video doesn't prove anything.
If you separate the commentary from the images, what do you see? A hospital in a country which has the highest winter flu death rate in Europe? Now imagine watching the film with a different which explained just that, and giving the reasons.
Would you be equally convinced? Given how clever the media is, I'm betting you would.
You realize that there are doctors inside the hospital in Bergamo being interviewed in the video, right? These are actual doctors, not paid actors.
They are the ones claiming they've never seen anything like this crisis. They're also the ones alerting to the fact that this virus is much more aggressive than the normal flu and that patients are over-flooding the ER and developping severe pneumonia. These are their testimonies, the reporter is merely echoing them.
Work update. Now all staff wearing N95 masks with each patient. Uncomfortable fit, poorly ventilated. Vitals taken at door when arrive for work, standard corona questions. No visitors allowed. Most patients stressed out about this, most about the hype, a few afraid of coming down with it. Constant talk about the situation by staff ad nauseum. Docs and nurses generally very worried this is going to turn out very bad. And if staff have any contact with corona patient (or suspected), gotta stay home for two whopping weeks. I probably spent 25 minutes today alone at the sink washing my hands before and after every patient. Sing happy birthday song twice for correct wash time, wash between fingers and up wrists. Avoiding close contact with staff. Sit in corner documenting. I expect the protocol will get tighter as this spreads.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:23:03 PM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 05:22:14 PM
Do Brits have a problem with Sky news? They seemed to have better coverage of Brexit than, say, the BBC.
They're as bad as the BBC.
Aussie Sky seems far better than UK Sky, which just seems like purest fake news.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:10:58 PM
Your typical NHS hospital in the UK looks worse than this.
What does this picture prove? Nothing more than the sad fact that hospitals aren't like the movies.
it proves how gullible and un-analytic people like Vetus are, sheep to the slaughter whose perception of reality is not of the raw data of reality but the narrative through which they've been reared to frame it.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 05:39:18 PM
You realize that there are doctors inside the hospital in Bergamo being interviewed in the video, right? These are actual doctors, not paid actors.
That's not known.
QuoteThey are the ones claiming they've never seen anything like this crisis.
Of course they haven't. Never before in their lifetimes have so many Italian people been convinced by government and media, rightly or wrongly, that they have contracted a novel and deadly virus that is sweeping the world and rushed on hospitals as a result. The result doesn't prove the contention that caused it.
They're also the ones alerting to the fact that this virus is much more aggressive than the normal flu and that patients are over-flooding the ER and developping severe pneumonia. These are their testimonies, the reporter is merely echoing them.[/quote]
Except "flu" can be aggressive enough to lead to pneumonia and death, especially in the very demographic that make up alleged "coronavirus" deaths. This anecdote is meaningless.
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 05:25:23 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:23:03 PM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 05:22:14 PM
Do Brits have a problem with Sky news? They seemed to have better coverage of Brexit than, say, the BBC.
They're as bad as the BBC.
Are there any outlets that conservatives there prefer?
If you mean mainstream outlets, then no.
Lives being devastated and one million jobs a day being lost due to coronavirus pandemic says WTTChttps://www.traveldailynews.com/post/lives-being-devastated-and-one-million-jobs-a-day-being-lost-due-to-coronavirus-pandemic-says-wttc (https://www.traveldailynews.com/post/lives-being-devastated-and-one-million-jobs-a-day-being-lost-due-to-coronavirus-pandemic-says-wttc)
This headline is a lie. Lives are being devastated and tens of millions of jobs lost primarily due to government action and media narratives. They are going to destroy us if this continues. If this isn't the end game, it's the first trial run, a live exercise as follow up to their October 2019 tabletop exercise.
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centerforhealthsecurity.org%2Fsebin%2Fv%2Fb%2FEvent201-logo.jpg&hash=99fa37a605313afbdd82c1e88d55602d8b319d21)
http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/about (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/about)
QuoteAbout the Event 201 exercise
Event 201 was a 3.5-hour pandemic tabletop exercise that simulated a series of dramatic, scenario-based facilitated discussions, confronting difficult, true-to-life dilemmas associated with response to a hypothetical, but scientifically plausible, pandemic. 15 global business, government, and public health leaders were players in the simulation exercise that highlighted unresolved real-world policy and economic issues that could be solved with sufficient political will, financial investment, and attention now and in the future.
The exercise consisted of pre-recorded news broadcasts, live "staff" briefings, and moderated discussions on specific topics. These issues were carefully designed in a compelling narrative that educated the participants and the audience.
The Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, World Economic Forum, and Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation jointly propose these recommendations.
Purpose
In recent years, the world has seen a growing number of epidemic events, amounting to approximately 200 events annually. These events are increasing, and they are disruptive to health, economies, and society. Managing these events already strains global capacity, even absent a pandemic threat. Experts agree that it is only a matter of time before one of these epidemics becomes global—a pandemic with potentially catastrophic consequences. A severe pandemic, which becomes "Event 201," would require reliable cooperation among several industries, national governments, and key international institutions.
Recent economic studies show that pandemics will be the cause of an average annual economic loss of 0.7% of global GDP—or $570 billion. The players' responses to the scenario illuminated the need for cooperation among industry, national governments, key international institutions, and civil society, to avoid the catastrophic consequences that could arise from a large-scale pandemic.
Similar to the Center's 3 previous exercises—Clade X, Dark Winter, and Atlantic Storm—Event 201 aimed to educate senior leaders at the highest level of US and international governments and leaders in global industries.
It is also a tool to inform members of the policy and preparedness communities and the general public. This is distinct from many other forms of simulation exercises that test protocols or technical policies of a specific organization. Exercises similar to Event 201 are a particularly effective way to help policymakers gain a fuller understanding of the urgent challenges they could face in a dynamic, real-world crisis.
Scenario
Details about the scenario are available here.
Recommendations
The next severe pandemic will not only cause great illness and loss of life but could also trigger major cascading economic and societal consequences that could contribute greatly to global impact and suffering. The Event 201 pandemic exercise, conducted on October 18, 2019, vividly demonstrated a number of these important gaps in pandemic preparedness as well as some of the elements of the solutions between the public and private sectors that will be needed to fill them. The Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, World Economic Forum, and Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation jointly propose these recommendations.
QuoteThe Event 201 scenario
Event 201 simulates an outbreak of a novel zoonotic coronavirus transmitted from bats to pigs to people that eventually becomes efficiently transmissible from person to person, leading to a severe pandemic. The pathogen and the disease it causes are modeled largely on SARS, but it is more transmissible in the community setting by people with mild symptoms.
The disease starts in pig farms in Brazil, quietly and slowly at first, but then it starts to spread more rapidly in healthcare settings. When it starts to spread efficiently from person to person in the low-income, densely packed neighborhoods of some of the megacities in South America, the epidemic explodes. It is first exported by air travel to Portugal, the United States, and China and then to many other countries. Although at first some countries are able to control it, it continues to spread and be reintroduced, and eventually no country can maintain control.
There is no possibility of a vaccine being available in the first year. There is a fictional antiviral drug that can help the sick but not significantly limit spread of the disease.
Since the whole human population is susceptible, during the initial months of the pandemic, the cumulative number of cases increases exponentially, doubling every week. And as the cases and deaths accumulate, the economic and societal consequences become increasingly severe.
The scenario ends at the 18-month point, with 65 million deaths. The pandemic is beginning to slow due to the decreasing number of susceptible people. The pandemic will continue at some rate until there is an effective vaccine or until 80-90 % of the global population has been exposed. From that point on, it is likely to be an endemic childhood disease.
Again, it's all hidden in plain sight. This death figure is even the one being touted by the professionals. Every one of these major events is preceded just before it happens by some kind of conference, simulation, exercise etc. The bastards just can't help themselves.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 06:30:35 PM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 05:25:23 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 05:23:03 PM
Quote from: Graham on March 20, 2020, 05:22:14 PM
Do Brits have a problem with Sky news? They seemed to have better coverage of Brexit than, say, the BBC.
They're as bad as the BBC.
Are there any outlets that conservatives there prefer?
If you mean mainstream outlets, then no.
"Prefer"? As if there where any establishment outlet that a sane person would still trust over matters like this. Even in the 1960s you'd have to have been a pleb to trust any of them. But in this day and age?
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 05:27:10 PM
Imperial College acknowledged that imposing non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs), such as social distancing and quarantines, for 18 months or more would be an unprecedented feat that would have a "profound" impact on society and the economy. "We emphasize that is not at all certain that suppression will succeed long term; no public health intervention with such disruptive effects on society has been previously attempted for such a long duration of time. How populations and societies will respond remains unclear," the report said. Nevertheless, it concluded that "epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time."
The U.S. healthcare system will be overwhelmed even if the United States takes the less restrictive route to stem the spread of the coronavirus.
In other words, this particular bunch of experts hasn't a clue whether the devastating social and economical lockdowns will work or not, but it's the only strategy they can think of.
USA: 19,400 cases, 257 dead.
Italy: 47,000 cases, 4032 dead.
Another down day in the markets. I think we get a decent bottom at 2200 S&P. Relief rally to 2600. That's my internal model. I might short if it plays out.
Quote from: james03 on March 20, 2020, 06:44:02 PM
USA: 19,400 cases, 257 dead.
Italy: 47,000 cases, 4032 dead.
Another down day in the markets. I think we get a decent bottom at 2200 S&P. Relief rally to 2600. That's my internal model. I might short if it plays out.
The disparity in those numbers is absurd under the single-cause and identical disease viral theory.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 06:41:22 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 05:27:10 PM
Imperial College acknowledged that imposing non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs), such as social distancing and quarantines, for 18 months or more would be an unprecedented feat that would have a "profound" impact on society and the economy. "We emphasize that is not at all certain that suppression will succeed long term; no public health intervention with such disruptive effects on society has been previously attempted for such a long duration of time. How populations and societies will respond remains unclear," the report said. Nevertheless, it concluded that "epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time."
The U.S. healthcare system will be overwhelmed even if the United States takes the less restrictive route to stem the spread of the coronavirus.
In other words, this particular bunch of experts hasn't a clue whether the devastating social and economical lockdowns will work or not, but it's the only strategy they can think of.
What exactly has one succeeded in by destroying economies and bringing people down to a subsistence level that's even worse than that of wartime because of isolation and shutting down of all social activities? These academics should literally be hanged along with the politicians who implemented their ideas.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 05:39:18 PM
You realize that there are doctors inside the hospital in Bergamo being interviewed in the video, right? These are actual doctors, not paid actors.
They are the ones claiming they've never seen anything like this crisis. They're also the ones alerting to the fact that this virus is much more aggressive than the normal flu and that patients are over-flooding the ER and developping severe pneumonia. These are their testimonies, the reporter is merely echoing them.
I don't know about Italian doctors, but doctors in the UK are trained to repeat the claims of Big Pharma and prescribe lots of drugs and invasive procedures. I've never encountered a doctor who thought outside the box. They parrot the dietary guidelines, for example, while having zero training in nutrition, the same dietary guidelines which are making people sick across the Western world and beyond.
Italy is 2 trillion Euros in debt and its economy is a basket case. Doctors are a susceptible as anyone to exaggeration if aid money depends on it.
The doubters need not just address Italy but the full list of evidence.
Copy / paste from before.
Quote- Wuhan deaths [maybe it was a local toxic spill]
- China massive lockdown [maybe this was all a national toxic spill]
- Diamond Princess [now a totally unrelated cruise ship with Japanese passengers are dying in Japanese hospitals, its no longer just a China thing]
- Serious governments start going into war-time defense: Taiwan, Singapore, Macau, Hong Kong
- Iran deaths
- Korea deaths and mass infection [why did less die there? The church is predominantly younger people, kinda like Mormons]
- Lombardy deaths
- Washington State nursing home deaths
- Serious governments in the West begin war-time defense: Italy, France, Germany, USA
- Serious governments ban all entry: Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, Europe closes borders
- Serious governments with little relation are doing massive testing: mainland China, Korea, Bahrain
- Countless doctor testimonies of having never seen anything like this before
Here also is an Iranian hospital's parking garage filled with hospital beds.
https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1239172290341998592
Italy announces 627 deaths yesterday alone. RIP.
Italian obituary pages from a few days ago:
https://www.wcvb.com/article/obituary-pages-show-human-toll-of-covid-19-in-northern-italy/31672290
K, man, you're starting to sound like someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record. Reminds me of those posters going on and on about geocentricism. Which was obtuse. Just sayin. Be self-aware bro.
Quote from: christulsa on March 20, 2020, 06:58:07 PM
K, man, you're starting to sound like someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record. Reminds me of those posters going on and on about geocentricism. Which was obtuse. Just sayin. Be self-aware bro.
The broken records are those repeating their claims ad nauseam without addressing the objections I have raised to them. One person here has consistently engaged with me over the course of a few posts, and that's MikeMac. Nobody has bothered to address the assumptions behind the viral hypothesis or the problems with the diagnostic tests.
I predict you'll be cluttering up the thread with your crackpot theory for the next week or more.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 06:48:43 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 05:39:18 PM
You realize that there are doctors inside the hospital in Bergamo being interviewed in the video, right? These are actual doctors, not paid actors.
They are the ones claiming they've never seen anything like this crisis. They're also the ones alerting to the fact that this virus is much more aggressive than the normal flu and that patients are over-flooding the ER and developping severe pneumonia. These are their testimonies, the reporter is merely echoing them.
I don't know about Italian doctors, but doctors in the UK are trained to repeat the claims of Big Pharma and prescribe lots of drugs and invasive procedures. I've never encountered a doctor who thought outside the box. They parrot the dietary guidelines, for example, while having zero training in nutrition, the same dietary guidelines which are making people sick across the Western world and beyond.
Italy is 2 trillion Euros in debt and its economy is a basket case. Doctors are a susceptible as anyone to exaggeration if aid money depends on it.
Let's also not forget the antivirals they're sticking these people on. One of them is Ribavirin.
QuoteRibavirin is a synthetic antiviral nucleoside analogue. In the treatment of hepatitis C it works very successfully in combination with a variety of other treatments but has no impact on hepatitis C on its own. It was originally developed as an antiviral agent for diseases that cause respiratory problems.
Ironically, one of the side effects of the chemical, apart from the usual fever, cough, vomiting diarrhea, etc., is difficulty breathing. In particular, it lowers red blood cell counts, decreasing red cell survival, and inhibiting red cell release from bone marrow. That in itself is going to cause issues with getting enough oxygen. Now give this same toxic shit to elderly people, most of them already chronically ill to begin with, and what do you think is likely to happen?
This is just typical of drugs used to treat alleged viral infections, like AZT used for HIV: it can cause the very symptoms of the disease.
Also from cardiosmart.org:
QuoteRibavirin may decrease the number of red blood cells in your body. This is called anemia and it can be life-threatening in people who have heart disease or circulation problems.
One of the groups dying in Italy are eldery with cardiovascular issues. Can't make this up anymore.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit that the Italians are using some antiviral drug not being used in countries with much lower death rates. In fact, I'd be inclined to bet money on it.
Quote from: christulsa on March 20, 2020, 07:10:12 PM
I predict you'll be cluttering up the thread with your crackpot theory for the next week or more.
You've sufficiently evidenced you can't come up with a single argument to undergird your assertion that I'm "crackpot".
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 07:02:31 PM
The broken records are those repeating their claims ad nauseam without addressing the objections I have raised to them. One person here has consistently engaged with me over the course of a few posts, and that's MikeMac. Nobody has bothered to address the assumptions behind the viral hypothesis or the problems with the diagnostic tests.
Lack of brain power, perhaps, at least in my case. MikeMac, on the other hand, seems to know what he's talking about.
The government is completely botching things.
1. Schools are closed down. What is the hospitalization rate of children anywhere in the world due to Wuhan virus? What is the mortality rate?
2. We live in generation daycare. What impact will this have on the economy?
3. A couple of States are in complete lockdown to "non-essential" work. What if you make the little plastic containers for food? Is this essential? Suppose you process payroll and one of your customers is the company that makes little plastic containers for food? Are you essential? Socialism fails during regular times due to the information problem. It is going to fail spectacularly during a crisis.
4. For a healthy worker, the hospitalization rate for people with the disease is single digit at worst, and the death rate is basically zero. Why do they have to stay home?
5. We are sending everyone $2,000. What good is that if their employer goes bankrupt?
We are watching the total detonation of the US economy. I'm not afraid of the virus. I'm really starting to get afraid about the complete economic wipe out that is racing at us like a freight train.
QuoteThe disparity in those numbers is absurd under the single-cause and identical disease viral theory.
No one is proposing "single cause". It is Wuhan Virus plus age or Wuhan virus plus emphysema. Wuhan virus without comorbidities ends us being flu like at worst.
"Shelter in place". Now things are making sense. If you listen to academics arguing against the free market, you often hear about how the company exploits workers and makes them work in dangerous situations. When they say that I know they've never worked an industrial job in their lives because everyone knows labor hates the safety fags and it is the company that imposes safety.
"Shelter in place" is a safety fag buzz word. I just heard it a few weeks ago listening to one of the goofy safety videos we have to watch. It's been around for going on 10 years, like "lean in". Bottom line, the safety fags are in control, and that's really bad.
Governor Newsome of California has ordered a statewide "shelter in place" which affects 40 million people. President Trump made a statement about hydroxychloroquine getting FDA approval, but the FDA clarified that more clinical trials are needed first. Dr. Seheult discusses a Japanese influenza medication called Favipiravir (Avigan) that shows promising preliminary results, but cautions more trials and peer-review are needed.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPz5KxgI_K4[/yt]
Let me flesh this out some more. We would call these guys "jaws of life" guys. So suppose some firemen come upon an injured guy in the car. They need to open the door and remove him. Do they open the door and get the guy out? No. They are running back to the truck to deploy the jaws of life. Why? Because they want to play with the jaws for life. 20 minutes later after they have demolished the car they pull the guy out.
Think about Dr. Fauchi. What is a normal day for him? He probably sits in his office reading medical studies. Now he has smoking hot babe reporters coming around every hour to get an exclusive interview with him. He's a disaster. He is not thinking about what he will do to the economy. He has tunnel vision focused upon some war game scenario that he has always wanted to deploy.
If I were President Trump, I'd ask him a few questions:
Dr. Fauchi, what is the hospitalization rate for children? What is the mortality rate for children? Tell me again why we are recommending towns to shut down the schools?
3 COVID-19 Cases As Described By Doctors In China
Peer Review: Dr. Joe Akin, Dr. B Barnes, Dr. Ying-Li Hsu, Dr. David Lai, Dr. Chesed
Case Contributors: Dr. Zheng Chuansheng, Dr. Fan Yanqing, Dr. Han Xiaoyu, Dr. Shi Heshui from Wuhan Union Medical College Hospital and Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0A0LyMru3I[/yt]
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 07:11:49 PM
Quote from: christulsa on March 20, 2020, 07:10:12 PM
I predict you'll be cluttering up the thread with your crackpot theory for the next week or more.
You've sufficiently evidenced you can't come up with a single argument to undergird your assertion that I'm "crackpot".
Your theory has been repeatedly shown in this thread as crackpot because you maintain pandemics like Ebola, Black Death, or Measles, let alone minor illnesses like Chickenpox or Shingles, are not caused by microbial agents but only by non-pathogenic factors like poor nutrition. I don't know you from the man in the moon, but that idea is just Freddy Flinstone bat shit crazy stupid. The idea, NOT you. You deny the evidence of the entire academic microbiology community that viruses even exist in the first place. Despite what genetics, molecular biology, and biochemistry—the daily tools used by microbiologists—has observed and catalogued for over a century. Your argument here lost all credibility once you decided to clutter every page of the thread.
From the UK: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8135465/UKs-coronavirus-death-toll-rises-40-177-biggest-daily-spike.html
"Britain's coronavirus death toll today jumped by 40 in the biggest daily spike yet, with 177 lives now lost to the killer infection that is rapidly spreading across the UK.
Health chiefs also announced 714 more Britons tested positive for the life-threatening illness, taking the country's infection toll to almost 4,000.
It comes as Boris Johnson tonight ordered all pubs, bars, restaurants to shut down tonight in a dramatic lockdown to slow the spread of the ever-growing coronavirus crisis.
NHS England announced 39 patients had died overnight, with the oldest victim a 99-year-old. Eighteen of the new deaths were recorded in London – the centre of Britain's escalating outbreak.
Wales also recorded its third fatality today. Scotland has had six coronavirus deaths, while Northern Ireland has only had one so far.
Some 3,983 patients have been struck down in the UK already, but the true size of Britain's outbreak is currently being masked because authorities have decided to only test patients in hospital.
Officials fear up to 180,000 people may have already caught the virus, with experts estimating there are 1,000 cases for every one death."
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/03/20/18/26218234-8135465-image-a-21_1584728298704.jpg)
US Coronavirus cases touch 20,000, exceeding Iran:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
Can someone explain why there are celebrities and athletes positive for corona yet show night symptoms. There is no such a thing as having a flu without symptomps. And since corona is so contagious why there is less death due to it than flu?
(https://www.arabnews.com/sites/default/files/styles/n_670_395/public/2020/03/20/2020341-1607293333.jpg?itok=YZdFGTdt)
"DUBAI: Iran's death toll from the new coronavirus outbreak rose by 149 to 1,433 on Friday, a health ministry official tweeted, adding that that total number of confirmed infections had increased by 1,237 to 19,644." https://www.arabnews.com/node/1644316/middle-east
Quote from: Xavier on March 20, 2020, 11:01:57 PM
US Coronavirus cases touch 20,000, exceeding Iran:
We have four times the population of Iran and six times the land mass.
Furthermore, while the incidence of infection is generously spread over adult age groups, the mortality is not nearly so disbursed. The one constant predicting death is
underlying condition leading to complication. And although some think that's respiratory, one of the links I posted earlier today proves that cardiovascular disease is the most prominent indicator for mortality with Covid-19.
The virus is not now the biggest problem. It's paranoia and stupidity.
The economy is toast.
But we deserve this for Abortion if nothing else.
"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad."
Nearly 60 nuns test positive for COVID-19 at two convents outside Rome
"ROME - On Friday Italy's Lazio region announced that 59 sisters belonging to two convents in Rome had tested positive for the COVID-19 coronavirus, sparking fears about how quickly the virus might spread within religious houses.
Alessio D'Amato, the head of the Department of Health in Italy's Lazio region, made the announcement on March 20.
Of the sisters who tested positive, 40 belong to the Daughters of San Camillo convent in Grottaferrata, which is on the outskirts of Rome, and 19 are from the Angelic Sisters of Saint Paul convent in Rome, which currently houses 21 sisters."
(https://cruxnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/nuns-4153008_1280-690x450.jpg)
Local authorities have been informed of the case and an investigation has been launched into how the infections came about.
The San Camillo convent specifically cares for young students and elderly sisters, raising concern about the survival of the 40 sisters who have been diagnosed with the COVID-19 coronavirus, as the median age of those who die in Italy is 79.5, which is below the average age of many convents and religious communities in Europe."
Interesting background on Italy's crisis
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/03/20/why-italy/ (https://uncoverdc.com/2020/03/20/why-italy/)
Bullet-points from the article
- Italy has been ravaged by the Wuhan Coronavirus, but the reasons why are linked more closely to globalism than the age of the infected.
- Hundreds of thousands of Chinese immigrants now live both legally and illegally in Italy, with 300K legally registered and many more illegal.
- Italy recently entered into a new economic partnership with China called "One belt, One road"
- China has revitalized northern Italian ports in order to transport goods more efficiently to the rest of Europe
- The mayor of Florence initiated a social media campaign called "Hug a Chinese" using Chinese produced video as an engine to dispel the "racism" against the Chinese in Italy
Quote from: Lynne on March 21, 2020, 04:17:49 AM
Interesting background on Italy's crisis
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/03/20/why-italy/ (https://uncoverdc.com/2020/03/20/why-italy/)
Bullet-points from the article
- Italy has been ravaged by the Wuhan Coronavirus, but the reasons why are linked more closely to globalism than the age of the infected.
- Hundreds of thousands of Chinese immigrants now live both legally and illegally in Italy, with 300K legally registered and many more illegal.
- Italy recently entered into a new economic partnership with China called "One belt, One road"
- China has revitalized northern Italian ports in order to transport goods more efficiently to the rest of Europe
- The mayor of Florence initiated a social media campaign called "Hug a Chinese" using Chinese produced video as an engine to dispel the "racism" against the Chinese in Italy
This makes sense seeing as the textiles industries sold their companies to the Chinese in Wuhan and Italy had direct flights to Wuhan and still operating after the outbreak.
I could never make sense of this cluster outbreak Feb 18th. Ireland 20/3/20 3 deaths including one in NI.
Anyone follow Amazing Polly, the Canadian independent journalist? Some investigators follow the money, some follow the corporations, she follows the people. She has a good expose on Deborah Birx, the US go to guy for the virus outbreak.
An article from a couple of weeks ago arguing Iran's actual death toll is much higher than the reported cases:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/irans-coronavirus-problem-lot-worse-it-seems/607663/
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 20, 2020, 01:04:32 PM
I want the medical "experts" to shut up already. They are one important but not singularly important part of the equation. Not normally a violent person, I wanted to punch a doctor in the face last night as he was waxing ecstatically about lockdowns. To him -- and he admitted this -- the whole world is merely a lab, with his single goal to defeat a virus. But Dr. whoever you are, we are not mere specimens. Take off your white coat -- you, too, Dr. Fauci -- and get a reality check. The United States of America is not merely your personal giant hospital.
This is the problem with putting "experts" in charge generally: they tend to see things only through the eyes of their expertise. Scientists will see the world as a lab, educators as a school, soldiers as a warzone, etc.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 07:02:31 PM
Quote from: christulsa on March 20, 2020, 06:58:07 PM
K, man, you're starting to sound like someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record...of someone playing a broken record. Reminds me of those posters going on and on about geocentricism. Which was obtuse. Just sayin. Be self-aware bro.
The broken records are those repeating their claims ad nauseam without addressing the objections I have raised to them. One person here has consistently engaged with me over the course of a few posts, and that's MikeMac. Nobody has bothered to address the assumptions behind the viral hypothesis or the problems with the diagnostic tests.
Are you a doctor or a virologist Kreuzritter? Or do you have any medical credentials at all?
Quote from: james03 on March 20, 2020, 08:19:34 PM
"Shelter in place". Now things are making sense. If you listen to academics arguing against the free market, you often hear about how the company exploits workers and makes them work in dangerous situations. When they say that I know they've never worked an industrial job in their lives because everyone knows labor hates the safety fags and it is the company that imposes safety.
"Shelter in place" is a safety fag buzz word. I just heard it a few weeks ago listening to one of the goofy safety videos we have to watch. It's been around for going on 10 years, like "lean in". Bottom line, the safety fags are in control, and that's really bad.
So true. It's absolutely impossible to get any work done if you follow all the safety rules. If you have a good safety officer, he'll just look the other way, but if you have a bad one, you just have to hope he's not looking.
Germany reports over 20,000 cases. ICU beds in some countries are in danger of being overwhelmed.
Nearly 12000 deaths worldwide amid 290,000 cases (for a death rate of about 4% among known cases).
https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-latest-germany-reports-over-20000-cases/a-52865061
"China has reported no new cases of locally transmitted infections for a third day in a row
Global reported cases surpass 275,000, with the global death toll above 11,000
Germany, Spain and Italy have more confirmed cases combined than China
Singapore has reported its first two deaths from the virus
The EU has suspended budget rules for Member States, allowing greater borrowing
Updates in Universal Coordinated Time (UTC/GMT)
13:30 Calls are growing louder for the Tokyo 2020 Olympic organizing committee to postpone the Summer Games due to the coronavirus crisis.
Brazil's Olympic Committee on Saturday said the event should be pushed back to next year because of the seriousness of the pandemic and "the consequent difficulty for athletes to keep their best competitive level.'' That plea followed similar requests from Norway, Slovenia and Colombia as well as the US track and field team.
The International Olympic Committee has said it plans to go ahead with the event in July, stating that it is too early to make a decision about whether it should be postponed or not."
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/coronavirus-pandemic-spain-sees-5-000-new-covid-19-cases-in-a-day-1658223-2020-03-21
"Coronavirus pandemic: Spain sees 5,000 new Covid-19 cases in a day
Health authorities in Spain said the viral infections have reached 24,926, up from 19,980 the day before. Total deaths were 1,326, up from 1,002 on Friday."
Cases in Spain reach 25,000, up 5000 from the previous day.
I think the economy will come roaring back once the virus is defeated.
A temporary halt in production is not a permanent damage to the economy.
Companies will mass produce and easily make good for the break when it is over.
The first and most important thing now imho is to pray and work for it to be defeated.
Don't panic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0lOtdvqyg
Quote from: Xavier on March 21, 2020, 02:12:25 AM
Nearly 60 nuns test positive for COVID-19 at two convents outside Rome
Test positive according to what reliable test?
Xavier, Vetus, James - none of you can answer this question.
Quote from: Xavier on March 21, 2020, 07:53:31 AM
I think the economy will come roaring back once the virus is defeated.
A temporary halt in production is not a permanent damage to the economy.
This is delusional. Moreover, it abstracts reality into the word "economy" while ignoring the lives being destroyed. Just one example: a friend is a travelling nurse for surgeries and private surgeries have been shut down except for exceptional cases reviewed by the directors of hospitals, meaning all her upcoming bookings are cancelled and she has no prospect for work in this area for the immediate future; her son is a waiter and all restaurants have now been closed; she just paid her corporate tax and has a mortgage to pay; the son has rent to pay; hopefully she gets a break on the mortgage, but they also need money for food. Another friend works in finance and is waiting for a new venture to launch, which is being delayed; his girlfriend is an orthodontist and might be shut down, leaving them with zero income and large rent to pay, etc. If this persists even a little while longer, there is no "recovery" form this. It will plunge the masses into poverty and destitution. But there's more to it than that: if we are "bailed out", we are surrendering ourselves to socialist government as our keepers.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 20, 2020, 07:10:56 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 20, 2020, 06:48:43 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 20, 2020, 05:39:18 PM
You realize that there are doctors inside the hospital in Bergamo being interviewed in the video, right? These are actual doctors, not paid actors.
They are the ones claiming they've never seen anything like this crisis. They're also the ones alerting to the fact that this virus is much more aggressive than the normal flu and that patients are over-flooding the ER and developping severe pneumonia. These are their testimonies, the reporter is merely echoing them.
I don't know about Italian doctors, but doctors in the UK are trained to repeat the claims of Big Pharma and prescribe lots of drugs and invasive procedures. I've never encountered a doctor who thought outside the box. They parrot the dietary guidelines, for example, while having zero training in nutrition, the same dietary guidelines which are making people sick across the Western world and beyond.
Italy is 2 trillion Euros in debt and its economy is a basket case. Doctors are a susceptible as anyone to exaggeration if aid money depends on it.
Let's also not forget the antivirals they're sticking these people on. One of them is Ribavirin.
QuoteRibavirin is a synthetic antiviral nucleoside analogue. In the treatment of hepatitis C it works very successfully in combination with a variety of other treatments but has no impact on hepatitis C on its own. It was originally developed as an antiviral agent for diseases that cause respiratory problems.
Ironically, one of the side effects of the chemical, apart from the usual fever, cough, vomiting diarrhea, etc., is difficulty breathing. In particular, it lowers red blood cell counts, decreasing red cell survival, and inhibiting red cell release from bone marrow. That in itself is going to cause issues with getting enough oxygen. Now give this same toxic shit to elderly people, most of them already chronically ill to begin with, and what do you think is likely to happen?
This is just typical of drugs used to treat alleged viral infections, like AZT used for HIV: it can cause the very symptoms of the disease.
Also from cardiosmart.org:
QuoteRibavirin may decrease the number of red blood cells in your body. This is called anemia and it can be life-threatening in people who have heart disease or circulation problems.
One of the groups dying in Italy are eldery with cardiovascular issues. Can't make this up anymore.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit that the Italians are using some antiviral drug not being used in countries with much lower death rates. In fact, I'd be inclined to bet money on it.
Note how this has been completely ignored by Xavier, Vetus, etc.
We Are Being Played -
QuoteWho exactly is handling the Corona Virus Task Force in the US?
I look in to the back ground of Debra Birx which leads us to PEPFAR, which leads us to Bono and Bill Gates and the swampy depths of the Frankenstein Medical Industrial Complex. It's GLOBAL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSfP8sXtMbk
read this blog from time to time just in case you get "paralyzed" by the media hype
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/
http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Rockefeller%20Foundation.pdf (http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Rockefeller%20Foundation.pdf)
Rockefeller Foundation 2010: Scenarios for the Future ofTechnology and International Development
QuoteScenario
Narratives
Lock Step
LOCK STEP
A world of tighter top-down government control and more
authoritarian leadership, with limited innovation and growing
citizen pushback
In 2012, the pandemic that the world had been
anticipating for years finally hit. Unlike 2009's
HlNl, this new influenza strain — originating
from wild geese — was extremely virulent and
deadly. Even the most pandemic-prepared
nations were quickly overwhelmed when the
virus streaked around the world, infecting nearly
20 percent of the global population and killing
8 million in just seven months, the majority of
them healthy young adults. The pandemic also
had a deadly effect on economies: international
mobility of both people and goods screeched to
a halt, debilitating industries like tourism and
breaking global supply chains. Even locally,
normally bustling shops and office buildings sat
empty for months, devoid of both employees
and customers.
The pandemic blanketed the planet — though
disproportionate numbers died in Africa,
Southeast Asia, and Central America, where
the virus spread like wildfire in the absence
of official containment protocols. But even
in developed countries, containment was a
challenge. The United States's initial policy of
"strongly discouraging" citizens from flying
proved deadly in its leniency, accelerating the
spread of the virus not just within the U.S. but
across borders. However, a few countries did
fare better — China in particular. The Chinese
government's quick imposition and enforcement
of mandatory quarantine for all citizens, as well
as its instant and near-hermetic sealing off of
all borders, saved millions of lives, stopping
the spread of the virus far earlier than in other
countries and enabling a swifter post-
pandemic recovery.
China's government was not the only one that
took extreme measures to protect its citizens
from risk and exposure. During the pandemic,
national leaders around the world flexed their
authority and imposed airtight rules and
restrictions, from the mandatory wearing of face
masks to body-temperature checks at the entries
to communal spaces like train stations and
supermarkets. Even after the pandemic faded,
this more authoritarian control and oversight
of citizens and their activities stuck and even
intensified. In order to protect themselves from
the spread of increasingly global problems — from
pandemics and transnational terrorism to
environmental crises and rising poverty— leaders
around the world took a firmer grip on power.
At first, the notion of a more controlled world
gained wide acceptance and approval. Citizens
willingly gave up some of their sovereignty— and
their privacy — to more paternalistic states
in exchange for greater safety and stability.
Citizens were more tolerant, and even eager, for
top-down direction and oversight, and national
leaders had more latitude to impose order in the
ways they saw fit. In developed countries, this
heightened oversight took many forms: biometric
IDs for all citizens, for example, and tighter
regulation of key industries whose stability
was deemed vital to national interests. In many
developed countries, enforced cooperation with a
suite of new regulations and agreements slowly
but steadily restored both order and, importantly,
economic growth.
Across the developing world, however, the
story was different — and much more variable.
Top-down authority took different forms
in different countries, hinging largely on
the capacity, caliber, and intentions of their
leaders. In countries with strong and thoughtful
leaders, citizens' overall economic status
and quality of life increased. In India, for
example, air quality drastically improved after
2016, when the government outlawed high-
emitting vehicles. In Ghana, the introduction
of ambitious government programs to improve
basic infrastructure and ensure the availability
of clean water for all her people led to a sharp
decline in water-borne diseases. But more
authoritarian leadership worked less well — and
in some cases tragically— in countries run by
irresponsible elites who used their increased
power to pursue their own interests at the
expense of their citizens.
There were other downsides, as the rise of
virulent nationalism created new hazards:
spectators at the 2018 World Cup, for example.
19
Scenario Narratives LOCK STEP
wore bulletproof vests that sported a patch
of their national flag. Strong technology
regulations stifled innovation, kept costs high,
and curbed adoption. In the developing world,
access to "approved" technologies increased
but beyond that remained limited: the locus
of technology innovation was largely in the
developed world, leaving many developing
countries on the receiving end of technologies
that others consider "best" for them. Some
"IT IS POSSIBLE TO DISCIPLINE \
AND CONTROL SOME SOCIETIES \
FOR SOME TIME, BUT NOT THE \
WHOLE WORLD ALL THE TIME." \
- GK Bhat, TARU Leading Edge, India ;
governments found this patronizing and refused
to distribute computers and other technologies
that they scoffed at as "second hand."
Meanwhile, developing countries with more
resources and better capacity began to innovate
internally to fill these gaps on their own.
Meanwhile, in the developed world, the presence
of so many top-down rules and norms greatly
inhibited entrepreneurial activity. Scientists
and innovators were often told by governments
what research lines to pursue and were guided
mostly toward projects that would make money
(e.g., market-driven product development) or
were "sure bets" (e.g., fundamental research),
leaving more risky or innovative research
areas largely untapped. Well-off countries and
monopolistic companies with big research and
development budgets still made significant
advances, but the IP behind their breakthroughs
remained locked behind strict national or
corporate protection. Russia and India imposed
stringent domestic standards for supervising
and certifying encryption-related products and
their suppliers — a category that in reality meant
all IT innovations. The U.S. and EU struck back
with retaliatory national standards, throwing
a wrench in the development and diffusion of
technology globally.
Especially in the developing world, acting in
one's national self-interest often meant seeking
practical alliances that fit with those
Scenario Narratives LOCK STEP
interests — whether it was gaining access to
needed resources or banding together in order
to achieve economic growth. In South America
and Africa, regional and sub-regional alliances
became more structured. Kenya doubled its
trade with southern and eastern Africa, as new
partnerships grew within the continent. China's
investment in Africa expanded as the bargain
of new jobs and infrastructure in exchange for
access to key minerals or food exports proved
agreeable to many governments. Cross-border
ties proliferated in the form of official security
aid. While the deployment of foreign security
teams was welcomed in some of the most dire
failed states, one-size-fits-all solutions yielded
few positive results.
By 2025, people seemed to be growing weary of
so much top-down control and letting leaders
and authorities make choices for them.
Wherever national interests clashed with
individual interests, there was conflict. Sporadic
pushback became increasingly organized and
coordinated, as disaffected youth and people
who had seen their status and opportunities slip
away— largely in developing countries — incited
civil unrest. In 2026, protestors in Nigeria
brought down the government, fed up with the
entrenched cronyism and corruption. Even those
who liked the greater stability and predictability
of this world began to grow uncomfortable and
constrained by so many tight rules and by the
strictness of national boundaries. The feeling
lingered that sooner or later, something would
inevitably upset the neat order that the world's
governments had worked so hard to establish. •
Scenario Narratives LOCK STEP
HEADLINES in lock step
Qjarantine Restricts
in-Person Contact;
Cellular Networks
Overloaded
(2013)
Italy Addresses
'Immigrant Caregiver'
Gap with Robots
(2017)
Vietnam to Require
'A Solar Panel
on Every Home'
(2022)
African Leaders Fear
Repeat of Nigeria's 2026
Government Collapse
(2028)
Intercontinental
Trade Hit by Strict
Pathogen Controls
(2015)
Will Africa's Embrace
of Authoritarian
Capitalism a la
China Continue?
(2018)
Proliferating Trade
Networks in Eastern
and Southern Africa
Strengthen Regional Ties
(2023)
ROLE OF PHILANTHROPY in lock step
Philanthropic organizations will face hard choices in this world. Given the strong
role of governments, doing philanthropy will require heightened diplomacy skills and
the ability to operate effectively in extremely divergent environments. Philanthropy
grantee and civil society relationships will be strongly moderated by government,
and some foundations might choose to align themselves more closely with national
official development assistance (ODA) strategies and government objectives.
Larger philanthropies will retain an outsized share of influence, and many smaller
philanthropies may find value in merging financial, human, and operational resources.
Philanthropic organizations interested in promoting universal rights and freedoms will
get blocked at many nations' borders. Developing smart, flexible, and wide-ranging
relationships in this world will be key; some philanthropies may choose to work only
in places where their skills and services don't meet resistance. Many governments
will place severe restrictions on the program areas and geographies that international
philanthropies can work in, leading to a narrower and stronger geographic focus or
grant-making in their home country only.
Scenario Narratives LOCK STEP
TECHNOLOGY in lock step
While there is no way of accurately predicting what the important technological
advancements will be in the future, the scenario narratives point to areas where
conditions may enable or accelerate the development of certain kinds of technologies.
Thus for each scenario we offer a sense of the context for technological innovation,
taking into consideration the pace, geography, and key creators. We also suggest a few
technology trends and applications that could flourish in each scenario.
Technological innovation in "Lock Step" is largely driven by government and is
focused on issues of national security and health and safety. Most technological
improvements are created by and for developed countries, shaped by governments'
dual desire to control and to monitor their citizens. In states with poor governance,
large-scale projects that fail to progress abound.
Technology trends and applications we might see:
• Scanners using advanced functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI)
technology become the norm at airports and other public areas to detect
abnormal behavior that may indicate "antisocial intent."
• In the aftermath of pandemic scares, smarter packaging for food and beverages
is applied first by big companies and producers in a business-to-business
environment, and then adopted for individual products and consumers.
• New diagnostics are developed to detect communicable diseases. The
application of health screening also changes; screening becomes a prerequisite
for release from a hospital or prison, successfully slowing the spread of many
diseases.
• Tele-presence technologies respond to the demand for less expensive, lower-
bandwidth, sophisticated communications systems for populations whose travel
is restricted.
• Driven by protectionism and national security concerns, nations create their
own independent, regionally defined IT networks, mimicking China's firewalls.
Governments have varying degrees of success in policing internet traffic, but
these efforts nevertheless fracture the "World Wide" Web.
Scenario Narratives LOCK STEP
1
LIFE IN LOCK STEP
Manisha gazed out on the Ganges River, mesmerized by what she saw. Back in
2010, when she was 12 years old, her parents had brought her to this river so that she
could bathe in its holy waters. But standing at the edge, Manisha had been afraid. It
wasn't the depth of the river or its currents that had scared her, but the water itself:
it was murky and brown and smelled pungently of trash and dead things. Manisha
had balked, but her mother had pushed her forward, shouting that this river flowed
from the lotus feet of Vishnu and she should be honored to enter it. Along with
millions of Hindus, her mother believed the Ganges's water could cleanse a person's
soul of all sins and even cure the sick. So Manisha had grudgingly dunked herself
in the river, accidentally swallowing water in the process and receiving a bad case
of giardia, and months of diarrhea, as a result.
Remembering that experience is what made today so remarkable. It was now 2025.
Manisha was 27 years old and a manager for the Indian government's Ganges
Purification Initiative (GPI). Until recently, the Ganges was still one of the most
polluted rivers in the world, its coliform bacteria levels astronomical due to the
frequent disposal of human and animal corpses and of sewage (back in 2010, 89
million liters per day) directly into the river. Dozens of organized attempts to clean
the Ganges over the years had failed. In 2009, the World Bank even loaned India
$1 billion to support the government's multi-billion dollar cleanup initiative. But
then the pandemic hit, and that funding dried up. But what didn't dry up was the
government's commitment to cleaning the Ganges — now not just an issue of public
health but increasingly one of national pride.
Manisha had joined the GPI in 2020, in part because she was so impressed by
the government's strong stance on restoring the ecological health of India's most
treasured resource. Many lives in her home city of Jaipur had been saved by the
government's quarantines during the pandemic, and that experience, thought
Manisha, had given the government the confidence to be so strict about river usage
V J
Scenario Narratives LOCK STEP
now: how else could they get millions of Indian citizens to completely shift their
cultural practices in relationship to a holy site? Discarding ritually burned bodies
in the Ganges was now illegal, punishable by years of jail time. Companies found
to be dumping waste of any kind in the river were immediately shut down by the
government. There were also severe restrictions on where people could bathe and
where they could wash clothing. Every 20 meters along the river was marked by
a sign outlining the repercussions of "disrespecting India's most treasured natural
resource." Of course, not everyone liked it; protests flared every so often. But no
one could deny that the Ganges was looking more beautiful and healthier than ever.
Manisha watched as an engineering team began unloading equipment on the banks.
Many top Indian scientists and engineers had been recruited by the government to
develop tools and strategies for cleaning the Ganges in more high-tech ways. Her
favorite were the submersible bots that continuously "swam" the river to detect,
through sensors, the presence of chemical pathogens. New riverside filtration
systems that sucked in dirty river water and spit out far cleaner water were also
impressive — especially because on the outside they were designed to look like
mini-temples. In fact, that's why Manisha was at the river today, to oversee the
installation of a filtration system located not even 100 feet from where she first
stepped into the Ganges as a girl. The water looked so much cleaner now, and recent
tests suggested that it might even meet drinkability standards by 2035. Manisha
was tempted to kick off her shoe and dip her toe in, but this was a restricted area
now - and she, of all people, would never break that law.
V J
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/ECtLJKdGj8jfy/giphy.gif)
This reads like the blueprint for the narrative now being enacted live.
October 2019. What a joke. It takes the "big lie" effect to believe this is coincidence.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoLw-Q8X174[/yt]
Kreuz, I posted the same PDF document at least 20 pages ago :) but it seems like no one is taking it seriously. We are dismissed as conspiracy theorists while Bill Gates "The Vaccine Wiz", Roceffeler Foundation, NATO, UN, and other diabolical bodies have been boldly programming the masses for years, "in-your-face" style.
QuoteEpidemic: quarantining real science
by Jon Rappoport
March 20, 2020
This article is about fake science and the medical professionals who are hypnotized by it.
32 years ago, just after my first book, AIDS INC., was published, I was speaking with a doctor friend, a brilliant man. He criticized my strategy of showing how NON-VIRUS factors had destroyed the immune systems of "people with AIDS."
As evidence, he cited a UCLA study which had looked into the possibility that vast overuse of antibiotics was shredding the immune systems of gay men. "You see," he said, "the study found that many gay men who had been diagnosed with AIDS didn't abuse antibiotics. Therefore, those drugs couldn't be the cause of AIDS."
I was shocked. I was shocked that this doctor had fallen for absolute nonsense.
First of all, I had never said antibiotics were the cause of AIDS. He was confused at the starting gate.
To boil it down, my argument, in the book, was: for various specific reasons, HIV had never been proved to be the cause of what was being called AIDS. And—this was the key—"AIDS" was a label that had been placed, like an umbrella, over a whole host of diverse health conditions. At the root, AIDS was really IMMUNE SYSTEM DESTRUCTION coming from a number of different causes, depending on which group of people you were talking about.
And, in New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco, ONE OF THOSE CAUSES, IN SOME GAY MEN, was vast overuse of antibiotics.
My doctor friend hadn't understood this.
WHY NOT?
Here is the punch line. Through his training, he had been hypnotized into thinking that AIDS was one syndrome with one basic cause. "It had to be." 99 percent-plus of all doctors in the world had also been hypnotized in exactly the same way.
One label, one basic condition, one germ.
AIDS couldn't actually be a whole variety of causes, all of which suppress the immune system. No, no, no. That would be heresy.
The hypnosis sets up an either-or situation. "Show us the one cause of the one condition, or go away." And that is called medical science.
Imagine the following: six men in New Jersey suffer from sudden bleeding. So do eight women in New Guinea. So do twelve children in Uganda. A team of virus hunters from the CDC decides that all these occurrences must be linked by a common cause. Which, of course, will turn out to be a virus. But they're wrong. Dead wrong. It's not a virus.
In fact, there is no unifying "it." The six men in New Jersey were working in a factory where leaking acid fumes were getting into their lungs and creating hemorrhages. The eight women in New Guinea were farm workers overcome by highly dangerous pesticides, and they bled. The children in Uganda had been drinking water directly connected to sewage outlets, and in the sewage there were industrial poisons, and they bled.
This was not one condition. It did not have one cause. But too late—the CDC moves in, declares it's all a virus, and the name of the condition is X-32f54d. Journal articles are rushed into print. Public health officials warn that X-32f54d could spread...
You get the idea. The hypnosis works. It has nothing to do with science.
In the current "epidemic," we have the same old story. IT IS NOT ONE CONDITION. IT DOES NOT HAVE ONE CAUSE.
What are some of the causes which can induce the general flu-like and pneumonia-like symptoms being labeled "coronavirus?"
Ordinary flu. Pneumonia from different bacteria, fungi, toxic air. TB. Common colds. Allergies. In some places, perhaps the rollout of 5G technology. Toxic vaccination campaigns. Toxic medical drugs. Highly toxic and destructive antiviral drugs, given to people who are called "COV cases." Immobilization, long-term, in nursing homes for the elderly. Pesticides causing lung problems. Industrial poisons causing lung problems. People who have slight or serious congestion and are afraid they might "have the virus" and show up at hospitals. Corporate chemical dumping. Expired and unrefrigerated medical drugs shipped to the Third World. (The mere detection of elevated body temperature during airport screenings. People who had contact with other people who have been called "coronavirus cases." Overeager and work-harried doctors diagnosing "suspected cases.")
And so on and so forth.
NOT one condition with one cause.
NOT one condition.
NOT one cause.
Therefore, the "spread and containment of the one virus" is wrongheaded.
"But...but...suppose the patient tests positive for the coronavirus? Isn't that some kind of proof? Doesn't a positive test connect all these people with different conditions, under one banner?"
No. I have covered this in other articles. Even assuming that researchers actually discovered COV—the diagnostic test, at best, might indicate the patient has a tiny, tiny amount of COV in his body. But, in order to cause illness, he would need to have millions and millions of virus actively replicating in his body. The test has never been proved to be capable of detecting that.
And on top of all this, the overwhelming percentage of "COV cases" in the world have been diagnosed WITHOUT THE DIAGNOSTIC TEST for the virus.
Therefore, what we're left with are many people, with all sorts of different conditions, caused by many different factors—irrationally collected together under one label.
"But...but...what about all these people all over the world suddenly getting sick and dying?"
That's not a true picture. In many, many cases, these are people who have been getting sick and dying in the same ways people been getting sick for a long, long time, down through history For example, TB and pneumonia. In other cases, the causes could/would be new. For instance, new pollution, a recent vaccination campaign(s), the new rollout of 5G, the accelerated use of antiviral drugs. The other new factors are the re-labeling of all these people with a novel term: "COV";
And the press coverage, and the pronouncements of governments.
And then the lockdowns. And the economic warfare against the people.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 21, 2020, 10:08:47 AM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/ECtLJKdGj8jfy/giphy.gif)
This reads like the blueprint for the narrative now being enacted live.
Yeah this all does look like a grand psychological operation. I understand your frustration Kreuzritter, but I think your anger is misplaced. You should be angry at the demonic and human architects of this madness. Jesus was angry at the pharisees; He was compassionate towards the masses, "who were like sheep without a shepherd." Coincidentally the Jewish authorities were fans of psy-ops: the high priest's justification for murdering Jesus was, "it's better for one man to perish than the whole nation", so he used Our Lord as a tactical pawn in his game against the Roman occupants. That's the way the powers of this world tend to think. They look down on the people as pawns to be used to enact their grand strategies and ambitions, like Plato and his precept of using noble lies to string along the masses. The current world oligarchs are especially repugnant because of how smugly humanitarian they believe themselves to be. Champagne socialists in boardrooms and limousines who think they are the advocates of humanity when they are completely out of touch and sympathy with the common peoples of the world, unlike Jesus who went and lived with and among them. In any case, there's no need to fret. The wonderful thing is how God turns the plots of the wicked to good. Recently I've been letting go of the typical Trad view of history that we peaked in the middle ages and it's a slow and inevitable decline since then. I think the medieval church reached only a partial and rather compromised evangelisation of the world, and that the efforts of the masons (and the like) these past centuries to liberalise the nations and promote a global secular humanist NWO will backfire on them because it will turn into a platform for the gospel to truly spread to all peoples and for the Church to become truly universal.
Quote from: Lynne on March 21, 2020, 04:17:49 AM
Interesting background on Italy's crisis
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/03/20/why-italy/ (https://uncoverdc.com/2020/03/20/why-italy/)
Bullet-points from the article
- Italy has been ravaged by the Wuhan Coronavirus, but the reasons why are linked more closely to globalism than the age of the infected.
- Hundreds of thousands of Chinese immigrants now live both legally and illegally in Italy, with 300K legally registered and many more illegal.
- Italy recently entered into a new economic partnership with China called "One belt, One road"
- China has revitalized northern Italian ports in order to transport goods more efficiently to the rest of Europe
- The mayor of Florence initiated a social media campaign called "Hug a Chinese" using Chinese produced video as an engine to dispel the "racism" against the Chinese in Italy
Thank you, Lynne. This confirms a recent conversation I had with my often-traveling daughter, who has friends in many countries and has visited several countries in Europe, including Italy many times (but not recently, thankfully).
Yes, I myself was surprised to learn from her how many Chinese reside in northern Italy. It seemed counterintuitive at first.
But what of course enrages me is that these important contexts that you have posted here are being willfully ignored by Washington D.C., New York, and California.
China is becoming troublesome in many more ways than just economically, politically, and culturally. By the latter I mean how much immigrant Chinese have "taken over" certain regions in this country with regard to educational and political policies, "enculturating" China as the dominant presence in particular areas. (East, good; West, bad)
One can look up the stats on Chinese nationals in the States. On the mainland, the areas of largest representation are NY and CA. (Nah, must be just a coincidence, the Covid-19 rates.)
In some places in the hardest hit county in CA (Santa Clara), they are anywhere between one-fifth and one-third of the local population. The student bodies of many public schools there are 100% Chinese. I know this directly, not from reports.
China has acquired quite an extraordinary number of companies in Lombardy from motorcycle manufacturers to textile and leatherworking companies, and particularly with the latter, substantially staff them with Chinese workers. A genuinely Italian made handbag or coat is likelier to command a premium than something equally well made in China, and with Chinese workers, employee costs might be more contained.
A breakdown of ethnicity (if available) would be interesting. Older people in ill health and Chinese are substantially likely to figure in those stats, if they not kept secret.
It might have been posted but Chris Ferrarra of the Remnant has major doubts (https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/4809-here-we-go-again-the-virus-of-mass-destruction) about the reaction to the Chinese virus. I did of a theory that some major drops in Chinese mobile phone subscriptions might be a result of death totals the Chinese Communist authorities are suppressing. They now seem to be engaged in an effort to force people back to work, to pretend it's gone. Given how Chairman Mao was unperturbed by the deaths of ten of millions of his slave subjects, a mortality of ten or twenty thousand extra would be nothing to the dictator Xi, except how it might harm the income stream of him and his comrades.
Italy just reported a record number of deaths today for a single day thus far: 793.
Things are still escalating.
It seems brazen that they would let their plans and blueprints be so open and public. The common understanding of this among conspiracy researchers is that they leave things in plain sight as a psychological ploy to get the implicit moral consent of the people for their plots and actions. I think the simpler explanation is that they put it out there to attract sympathisers and ambitious people who will contribute for the sake of worldly advancement.
The funny thing is that these people, these oligarchs, the masons, illuminati, NWO types, whatever you want to call them, are already basically obsolete. They are leftovers from the Age of Enlightenment, which basically ended after WW2. I say this because postmodern philosophy (relativism, deconstructionism, anti-humanism) has basically undermined and destroyed Enlightenment philosophy (naturalism, rationalism, humanism). In other words, they're old fashioned and out of date. Like the rulers of the late Roman empire who were out of touch with the developing conditions and whose old categories of thought were no longer relevant. The Enlightenment ambition is that a leviathan state girded with natural science can perfect humanity through state education and bring about world order and peace. The problem is that humanity is so radically disordered in its fundamental nature, its soul, that no amount of secular education can bring peace to humanity, but only the healing grace of the Holy Spirit in Christ. Nobody really "believes in humanity" anymore, everybody is disillusioned and cynical. That's how you know they've failed. The Elightenment picture of the rational man, the cosmopolitan republican, is dead. So instead of trying to bring it about through open persuasion they have to use surreptitious force and scheming. It's an obsolete cult. The good thing about postmodernism having torn down Enlightenment thought and epistemology is that it's left a theological and philosophical vacuum through which the Gospel can again enter into people's and the world's life, once the Church gets its house in order and starts preaching again.
Globalism is potentially a good thing because it can be a network for the propagation of the Gospel. No, this crisis is not the end of globalism. There has been a growth in human understanding now, and technologies like the Internet mean we should never have to regress to backwards ideologies like nationalism. And even if nationalism should have a brief period of resurgence in the coming decades, it will only be an example of what Marx meant by, "history repeats itself, first as tragedy then as farce." Everybody knows since the World Wars that nationalism is a stupid tribal ideology unfit for humanity, but the failures and excesses of secular globalism are giving nationalism a nostalgic appeal in the minds of many. But what we need is not a regression to romanticist nationalism, nor a capitulation to rationalist globalism, but a redeemed and Catholic Christian global community, which will come about (even if through many crises) because the prevailing secular humanist ideology is utterly empty of spiritual value and philosophically discredited.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 21, 2020, 11:51:22 AM
Quote from: Lynne on March 21, 2020, 04:17:49 AM
Interesting background on Italy's crisis
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/03/20/why-italy/ (https://uncoverdc.com/2020/03/20/why-italy/)
Bullet-points from the article
- Italy has been ravaged by the Wuhan Coronavirus, but the reasons why are linked more closely to globalism than the age of the infected.
- Hundreds of thousands of Chinese immigrants now live both legally and illegally in Italy, with 300K legally registered and many more illegal.
- Italy recently entered into a new economic partnership with China called "One belt, One road"
- China has revitalized northern Italian ports in order to transport goods more efficiently to the rest of Europe
- The mayor of Florence initiated a social media campaign called "Hug a Chinese" using Chinese produced video as an engine to dispel the "racism" against the Chinese in Italy
Thank you, Lynne. This confirms a recent conversation I had with my often-traveling daughter, who has friends in many countries and has visited several countries in Europe, including Italy many times (but not recently, thankfully).
Yes, I myself was surprised to learn from her how many Chinese reside in northern Italy. It seemed counterintuitive at first.
But what of course enrages me is that these important contexts that you have posted here are being willfully ignored by Washington D.C., New York, and California.
China is becoming troublesome in many more ways than just economically, politically, and culturally. By the latter I mean how much immigrant Chinese have "taken over" certain regions in this country with regard to educational and political policies, "enculturating" China as the dominant presence in particular areas. (East, good; West, bad)
One can look up the stats on Chinese nationals in the States. On the mainland, the areas of largest representation are NY and CA. (Nah, must be just a coincidence, the Covid-19 rates.)
In some places in the hardest hit county in CA (Santa Clara), they are anywhere between one-fifth and one-third of the local population. The student bodies of many public schools there are 100% Chinese. I know this directly, not from reports.
It's good that the Chinese are spreading around the world because though they themselves have been raised under an essentially fascist state (China is something like Germany would have been if Hitler succeeded), their children won't be. And the children of Chinese immigrants will be able better to understand the subjugation of the homeland by this tyranny. The Chinese are like 50 years behind world history and are clinging to nationalism. My understanding of the Chinese is that they are very conformist and change rarely, but when they do change they change quickly and en masse. I imagine that God's purpose for the Chinese is that they, being a quite spiritual people historically, having experienced the effects of materialism in its most brutal form, will finally reject it with such vehemence and hopefully embracing the Gospel will become a strong arm of the Church.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 21, 2020, 11:49:17 AM
In any case, there's no need to fret. The wonderful thing is how God turns the plots of the wicked to good ......
...... the efforts of the masons (and the like) these past centuries to liberalise the nations and promote a global secular humanist NWO will backfire on them because it will turn into a platform for the gospel to truly spread to all peoples and for the Church to become truly universal.
But what if this particular plot of the wicked is their final one before Christ comes again?
Given the speed with which the world is being put under martial law, the relentlessness of the media campaign to ensure this happens, the near absolute power of the banks and corporations, and the complete collusion in this project shown by all governments and international bodies, why do you think there can be any halt to the process of establishing the NWO.
Where do you get this hope from? Why do you believe that God will turn this situation to good rather than let events take their course to what He has already stated is the conclusion of the Gospel narrative - a worldwide reign of terror by the Son of Perdition who can only be defeated by Christ when He comes again?
I share none of your, or martin88nyc's optimism. Every Sunday we recite the lines in the Creed which state that Christ will come again. Why not now, or very soon, once the NWO is established, the Son of Perdition is on his throne and unimaginable horrors have been unleashed on the world for - how long is it - three and a half years?
How do you imagine the possibility of resisting this?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 21, 2020, 09:27:11 AM
Note how this has been completely ignored by Xavier, Vetus, etc.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 21, 2020, 09:25:43 AM
Xavier, Vetus, James - none of you can answer this question.
Did it possibly cross your mind that a good portion of people who post in this thread might simply find your posts without merit and not worth addressing, and thus choose to ignore them? Answering and addressing every conspiracy theorist out there (especially in Traditional Catholic circles, where conspiracy theories abound - while some are true, many are downright idiotic) is certainly not the most productive use of one's time.
USA: 25,900, 316 deaths I predicted 300 by Sunday, so still exponential
Italy: 53,600, 4,825 deaths. Looks like a doubling rate of every 5 days, which is an improvement.
After being exposed to the virus that causes COVID-19, it can take as few as two and as many as 14 days for symptoms to develop. Cases range from mild to critical. The average timeline from the first symptom to recovery is about 17 days, but some cases are fatal. Here's what it looks like to develop COVID-19, day by day.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOJqHPfG7pA[/yt]
Awkward,
I share your incredulity in post 1085. It's not that I doubt that others feel optimistic; it's that I merely am less confident about how I myself (and loved ones) will fare in the entire build up and reign of the Antichrist (yes 3.5 years, the latter).
That is, while I believe that Christ eventually triumphs and that He is in fact in control right now, I do not necessarily see myself as benefiting spiritually from this phase. I am not confident that this restricted way of life will be as temporary as publicized. My sister's excellent physician, who has tested her twice now (sis is recovering from a sudden case of pneumonia), thinks that Covid will continue to show increases through Fall. I do not see how the populace does not become restless before then, and begin to rebel, even riot, turn to crime, and endanger already fragile services and economies.
Quote from: Arvinger on March 21, 2020, 04:32:37 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 21, 2020, 09:27:11 AM
Note how this has been completely ignored by Xavier, Vetus, etc.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 21, 2020, 09:25:43 AM
Xavier, Vetus, James - none of you can answer this question.
Did it possibly cross your mind that a good portion of people who post in this thread might simply find your posts without merit and not worth addressing, and thus choose to ignore them? Answering and addressing every conspiracy theorist out there (especially in Traditional Catholic circles, where conspiracy theories abound - while some are true, many are downright idiotic) is certainly not the most productive use of one's time.
Kreuzritter has been banned for a week and perhaps he won't return at all, both of which will probably raise a cheer amongst many on this thread, but I, for one, will miss his input. Granted, his delivery is not aimed at winning hearts as well as minds, but, in my view, that is not reason enough to dismiss what he says and the evidence he provides for it. True, I am open to what he says and so have not suffered the lash of his tongue, but tongue-lashing goes both ways in some cases and it is ones' own choice to read and contribute to the thread.
Pages ago, Kreuzritter posted the extract below, which is not a conspiracy theory, but an interesting example, which shows initial tests involved in closing down a medical centre, due to a purported whooping cough epidemic, were found to be false.
Quote...For months, nearly everyone involved thought the medical center had had a huge whooping cough outbreak, with extensive ramifications. Nearly 1,000 health care workers at the hospital in Lebanon, N.H., were given a preliminary test and furloughed from work until their results were in; 142 people, including Dr. Herndon, were told they appeared to have the disease; and thousands were given antibiotics and a vaccine for protection. Hospital beds were taken out of commission, including some in intensive care.
Then, about eight months later, health care workers were dumbfounded to receive an e-mail message from the hospital administration informing them that the whole thing was a false alarm.
Not a single case of whooping cough was confirmed with the definitive test, growing the bacterium, Bordetella pertussis, in the laboratory. Instead, it appears the health care workers probably were afflicted with ordinary respiratory diseases like the common cold.
Now, as they look back on the episode, epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists say the problem was that they placed too much faith in a quick and highly sensitive molecular test that led them astray.
Infectious disease experts say such tests are coming into increasing use and may be the only way to get a quick answer in diagnosing diseases like whooping cough, Legionnaire's, bird flu, tuberculosis and SARS, and deciding whether an epidemic is under way.
So the valid question is raised by KR: what tests are being used to determine one has been infected with Covid-19? He maintains they are the same as the example above and therefore subject to error, as referenced by the epidemiologists and infectious disease experts.
Xavier, Vetus Ordo and James (to a lesser extent) are the ones providing the regular statistics on how many people have now been confirmed with the virus, together with deaths, etc. I think the source and accuracy of the tests involved are perfectly reasonable questions to ask of those promoting the statistics. It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories.
Now, I don't know the answer with regard to the tests, which is why I was looking forward to a response too. I also hope KR does come back after his enforced hiatus.
QuoteI think the source and accuracy of the tests involved are perfectly reasonable
Is the body cold?
Is there a pulse?
"Number of confirmed cases" is not a great number. Suppose you saturate the amount of tests you can run, then it looks like you are leveling off. And then there are the untested infected. That's why I switched over to modeling the death rate. If you are stacking up bodies, you have a problem, whether it is a virus or the body's natural way to cleanse toxins, like small pox and chicken pox.
Yes, the test is very unreliable. Yes, the tests are being done on a tiny fraction of the population and thus are missing many already sick people. Yes, we have no good idea precisely how many are sick, how quickly it spreads, or how deadly it is. Yes, precision and accuracy are both wildly off.
This is all fully irrelevant.
The question, as I've said many times and so has Graham, is whether or not the hospitals are swamped with critically ill dying patients. Are the doctors saying they've never seen anything like this before. Is the healthcare system collapsing. Is this happening in many places across the planet. If yes to all, then there is something majorly wrong. I do not care if it is Covid19, the flu, demons, ill winds, bad humors, gremlins, or whatever. Something we do not understand is presenting a major threat to the world. Period.
When something is developing that is new and mysterious you cannot demand precise statistics. Statistics are a bunch of crap anyways. There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics. What you want are widespread anecdotal stories from serious people with first hand experience.
What should be done about all of this is a completely different matter.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 21, 2020, 11:15:35 PM
Yes, the test is very unreliable. Yes, the tests are being done on a tiny fraction of the population and thus are missing many already sick people. Yes, we have no good idea precisely how many are sick, how quickly it spreads, or how deadly it is. Yes, precision and accuracy are both wildly off.
This is all fully irrelevant.
The question, as I've said many times and so has Graham, is whether or not the hospitals are swamped with critically ill dying patients. Are the doctors saying they've never seen anything like this before. Is the healthcare system collapsing. Is this happening in many places across the planet. If yes to all, then there is something majorly wrong. I do not care if it is Covid19, the flu, demons, ill winds, bad humors, gremlins, or whatever. Something we do not understand is presenting a major threat to the world. Period.
When something is developing that is new and mysterious you cannot demand precise statistics. Statistics are a bunch of crap anyways. There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics. What you want are widespread anecdotal stories from serious people with first hand experience.
What should be done about all of this is a completely different matter.
So Davis, respectfully, I'm not sure if these are rhetorical "if" questions you asked above. Of course, if people are critically ill or dying from a particularly aggressive virus -- tested or not -- then those patients may have Covid if the behavior of the virus is new/unique/unprecedented.
In my area, we are (public is) not certain that the patients presenting themselves at hospitals are in fact critically ill.
Maybe they are just routinely ill because the government and the media continues to make alarming announcements almost non-stop. (The only mercy we have been given is the slight decrease of media saturation due to the weekend.) What appears to be happening is that every person who has (1) a cough of any kind (2) a fever of any origin (3) fatigue which could have a number of medical causes (standard cold, standard flu, "other") or (4) other respiratory symptoms is going to the hospital. This is not helpful to the general public and could jeopardize treatment for those who have been or should be tested.
Like some others here, I have seen for myself (not my own person, but in my immediate family) that the tests are being questioned by doctors themselves. Lots of false positives, lots of false negatives, lots of "undetermined," etc. For example, when I read today about "60 nuns in Italy" it tends to strain belief.
Leaked email reveals Ontario regional medical officer's criticism of provincial COVID-19 strategy as cracks emerge in front line
Fri., March 20, 2020
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/03/20/leaked-email-reveals-ontario-regional-medical-officers-criticism-of-provincial-covid-19-strategy-as-cracks-emerge-in-front-line.html?fbclid=IwAR1n0NuIMW3AXLB5ScPlZkGIzt3xTflANyDk1N0YTza2fv10tY4mitk7K7Q
Quote...
In an email obtained by the Star, Dr. Shanker Nesathurai wrote Thursday that Ontario's response has undermined the province's attempt to contain the outbreak, as businesses remain open and travellers ignore advice to self-isolate. He writes that "many" other medical officers of health, who are leading the regional response to the pandemic, believe Ontario needs to take a more assertive response.
...
Individuals, businesses that defy emergency orders could be fined, OPP says
Mar 20, 2020
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opp-warns-businesses-social-distancing-1.5505439?fbclid=IwAR1b-aes4lW66wxB9PcwPp9ezSjUgDt1qGrSv4GLlXiRsRon_ArScwaePPc
Quote...
People and businesses found breaking the new social distancing rules will be fined, Ontario Provincial Police said Friday.
Individuals could be fined up to $1,000 while corporations could face fines of up to $500,000, OPP said in a news release.
...
Quebec City police arrest COVID-19 patient for defying quarantine
Mar 20, 2020
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-police-arrest-covid-19-1.5505349?fbclid=IwAR2GRhw-1YZUpoFx-mD3Au1QOsU1jvU8MANxf1b-xZf44Gh_KuqRqb7Ifec
QuoteQuebec City police have arrested a woman, who has tested positive for the coronavirus, for being out in the city's Limoilou neighbourhood despite being under a quarantine order.
The woman, who is potentially contagious, was arrested at around 2 p.m. ET Friday while out for a stroll, by order of the regional public health authority.
"This is the first time that we have executed this type of warrant," said police spokesperson Sandra Dion.
...
(https://scontent.fyyz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/90079811_10163198735340187_5082881846769876992_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=MiFZAMOOHvYAX9ecQan&_nc_ht=scontent.fyyz2-1.fna&oh=7d1bedfd04ac94beb48e2d9036601049&oe=5E9D095D)
This is a well-balanced outlook on the new virus.
College Fellow and infectious disease specialist Dr. Harvey Rubin offers some insight into the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic that's impacting the world.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZFi8DEbXtw[/yt]
US cases touch 27000, increasing by over 2500 in a day: "2671 new cases and 46 new deaths in the United States" https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Worldwide cases cross 310,000, with 13000 deaths: If data from China and South Korea is right, the curve can be flattened in months. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
Here's what could happen if the curve is not flattened. It's a UK article from a week ago; its prediction for Italy this week was fulfilled.
"By now, most people have accepted – even the government has accepted – that coronavirus is going to put considerable pressure on our NHS. Yet as an NHS doctor currently caring for coronavirus patients, let me tell you: you have no idea how bad it's going to get.
Without wanting to sound alarmist, the numbers are inescapable.
One week ago, we had 40 confirmed cases in the UK. We took no specific general measures other than to contain and trace the contact patients had had with others. Yesterday, we had over ten times that number of cases, and still apart from screening intensive care patients, our testing criteria have barely changed. We still aren't testing community cases that clinically look like coronavirus if they haven't travelled or had contact with confirmed cases. Hospital cases are only beginning to be tested this week, and only at the discretion of clinicians.
Until now, a suspected case was not allowed to be tested unless they had an obvious link to certain countries or infected patients. I've seen at least three people with severe disease who weren't allowed to be tested, and heard of dozens more. This long-overdue policy change will soon be reflected – possibly as soon as the next 24-48 hours – in a big spike in case numbers.
For an idea of how quickly case numbers can explode, look to Italy. One week after it hit 320 cases, the country reported 2,036; a week later, nearly 10,000; next week that number will likely rise to 50,000 or more. There's nothing I have seen that tells me the exact same thing isn't coming for us in the UK. We only have around 4,000 intensive care unit (ICU) beds in England, 80% of which are already full. If we follow the same trajectory as Italy, with 10% of coronavirus patients needing ICU treatment, we will need 200 beds next week, 1,000 the week after. That's already the entire ICU capacity. Every two days after that, we will need twice the number of beds again."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-uk-doctor-nhs-hospital-symptoms-italy-china-a9397736.html
The number for Italy is at 53,000 now, so that turned out correct. 800 UK ICU beds were free at the time, I wonder how many are now?
And one from the US: "But the number of ICU beds and mechanical ventilators in U.S. hospitals is only a fraction of what may be needed in the weeks and months to come if worse-case scenario projections for COVID-19 become reality, according to a March 13 report from the Society of Critical Care Medicine (SCCM).
The American Hospital Association (AHA) has reportedly predicted that if the COVID-19 virus continues to spread as projected, 4.8 million patients would need hospitalization, 1.9 million COVID-19 patients would require admission to ICUs and 960,000 would require mechanical ventilation.
Unfortunately, according to the SCCM, that's about five patients for each ventilator that could be put into service." https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85462 These numbers are the reason for the measures being taken.
Finally, there are reports that some medicines already on the market may have a mitigating effect on the severity of the virus. That means it would not be necessary to wait for a vaccine to be developed, if that could be confirmed. Moreover, since these medical drugs are already on the market, and have been for several decades, it's already known they have no harmful side effects. That's a possibility. hydroxychloroquine has been suggested.
In other news, some abortions have been ordered to be stopped. Clau Clau mentioned this was chastisement because of abortion; hopefully, abortions stop forever soon. "COLUMBUS, Ohio - Ohio Attorney General's office has sent letters to two abortion clinics Friday, saying that they've received complaints that they are continuing surgical abortions despite coronavirus restrictions.
"On behalf of the Department, you and your facility are ordered to immediately stop performing non-essential and elective surgical abortions," said each letter, send by Ohio Deputy Attorney General Jonathan Fulkerson." https://www.cleveland.com/open/2020/03/ohio-attorney-general-sends-letters-to-2-abortion-clinics-telling-them-to-stop-all-non-essential-procedures.html
And, some tragic news from St. Peter's Fraternity Seminary. Unless I'm mistaken our brother Serviam was studying there? Anyone in touch with him can make sure he's safe?
(https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/images/Priest_collar_Credit__Gregory_Dean_via_wwwshutterstockcom_CNA.jpg?w=760)
"Augsburg, Germany, Mar 21, 2020 / 09:00 am (CNA).- Most of the community at the European seminary of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter are sick from coronavirus, and the community is relying on providence and uniting itself with the sick throughout the world.
"The virus did its work in the seminary, and now the better part of the priests and half of the seminarians are sick. But all are abandoned to the Providence of God," the Seminary of Saint Peter wrote in a March 19 update. The seminary is located in Wigratzbad, Germany, about 90 miles southwest of Augsburg.
"At the time of the so unexpected trial, each one measures the grace which is given to us to live these difficult times as true Christians. As the Lord permits evil only for a greater good, we trust that there will be many returns to God, the only one capable of giving meaning to our ephemeral existence on this earth."
The seminary had earlier said that coronavirus had been carried to the seminary by an Italian confrere. On March 14 it indicated it had been in strict confinement for a week, and that the disease was rapidly spreading through the seminary.
While the seminary has had to reorganize and do everything themselves, "everyone is generous and adapts without difficulty."
"The quarantine of Lent doubles as a health quarantine, and since 'all is grace' we see in it the opportunity for a salutary meditation on the meaning of life. Life is brief and fragile, and if one is worried about one's health, one must be even more concerned with one's salvation. The invisible malice of malady invites us to have more confidence in God, and to further augment our prayers and our penances."
In its March 19 update, the seminary indicated that "in a few days, the first to heal will be able to take over from the newly sick to maintain the spiritual and material life of the house."
"Of course we assure you all, especially the sick and health care staff, of our proximity and our wishes of good health. May God keep you, sursum corda! Adjutorium nostrum in nomine Domini."
St. Peter Seminary was founded in 1988, and it serves around 60 French- and German-speaking seminarians of the FSSP.
The FSSP is a society of apostolic life which celebrates the extraordinary form of the Roman rite. It was founded in 1988 by 12 priests of the Society of St. Pius X. The founders left the SSPX to establish the FSSP after the society's leader, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, consecrated four bishops without the permission of St. John Paul II.
There are currently almost 287 priests and 150 seminarians in the fraternity. It has parishes and chapels in North America, Europe, Oceania, Nigeria, and Colombia.
Fr. Bernhard Gerstle, superior of the fraternity's German-speaking district, wrote in a March 18 message that "the 'corona crisis' shows us how fragile our lives are and how even our highly developed medicine is facing an enormous challenge. In this difficult situation, you should know that we are particularly close to you and your families."
He added that all the district's priests, health permitting, are saying Mass in private and offering the graces to the people. "We are of course also available to you in pastoral matters, whereby all participants (especially our priests) are required carefully to observe the hygienic precautionary measures."
"We hope and pray that as far as possible none of our confreres and believers will be permanently harmed and that the painful limitations of church life will not last long," Fr. Gerstle wrote. "Let us also see the current test as an opportunity to set the right priorities in our lives even more than before and to strengthen and deepen our relationship with God."
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-invisible-malice-of-malady-invites-us-to-have-more-confidence-in-god-70013
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 21, 2020, 08:07:58 PM
Awkward,
I share your incredulity in post 1085. It's not that I doubt that others feel optimistic; it's that I merely am less confident about how I myself (and loved ones) will fare in the entire build up and reign of the Antichrist (yes 3.5 years, the latter).
That is, while I believe that Christ eventually triumphs and that He is in fact in control right now, I do not necessarily see myself as benefiting spiritually from this phase. I am not confident that this restricted way of life will be as temporary as publicized. My sister's excellent physician, who has tested her twice now (sis is recovering from a sudden case of pneumonia), thinks that Covid will continue to show increases through Fall. I do not see how the populace does not become restless before then, and begin to rebel, even riot, turn to crime, and endanger already fragile services and economies.
Thank you for this. I'm glad your sister is recovering. You mentioned in a previous post that you and your family suspected she may have had the coronavirus. You mention that she has been tested twice now?
And Christ will certainly triumph. In fact, He already has conquered the world. It's just that the final chapter hasn't been played out yet and I have a strong suspicion that this is it, the final act of the Gospel drama. And unfortunately, the final chapter involves some fairly unpleasant happenings.
If the NWO is being imposed on us as we speak, IF, then we will find out how public disorder is dealt with. There may not be riots at first. I'm wondering if people might start deliberately defying the order to stay at home and hold outdoor gatherings and street parties, as acts of defiance. We'll see how the authorities deal with this kind of action and any riots that might follow. My suspicion is that we'll suddenly witness a level of brutality that we hitherto thought impossible. The gloves will be off because they won't be needed any more.
To me it makes no difference if this is a bioweapon, or if there's no such thing as viruses, or if 5G is involved. The real problem is the massive and highly coordinated media campaign that rolls on and on, determined to control the narrative that the whole world must be locked down because of this illness. I believe that President Trump and Boris Johnson have tried to react with a light touch but have been put under tremendous pressure to get with the programme, including from those researchers at Imperial College, London, whose report was quoted by Vetus Ordo earlier and who turn out to be working for the World Health Organisation which is about as trustworthy as the UN.
Have you noticed how consistently the media narrative is being ramped up, in line with ever more ominous warnings from governments, health bodies and international agencies. Initially the UK shutdown was only supposed to be for 6 weeks, and then we were told it might last a year. And today we're being told that the UK will become like Italy, presumably with martial law included.
We're being played like fiddles. Towards the end of last year, I started having a feeling that something 'big' was about to happen. I hope this isn't it.
As for spiritual development during all this. Keep the Faith, no matter what, is all I can think of.
Article from the Guardian: Coronavirus - how Asian countries re-acted while the west dithered, and the differing outcomes thus far.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/21/coronavirus-asia-acted-west-dithered-hong-kong-taiwan-europe
"Coronavirus: how Asian countries acted while the west dithered
In Hong Kong and Taiwan, deaths are in single figures. But Europe gambled on a containment strategy
The first coronavirus cases in Taiwan and Italy came only 10 days apart. On Sunday Taiwan, which has deep cultural and economic ties to China, has recorded just 153 cases and two deaths. Italy has more than 47,000 cases and 4,032 people have died.
Italy's epidemic is currently the most devastating in the world; its death toll overtook China's last week and on Saturday officials in Lombardy said deaths in that region had jumped by 546 in one day to 3,095. The pattern of an exponential explosion in cases, after weeks of government inaction in the face of impending crisis, has been repeated across western countries from Spain, France and Germany, to the UK and the US.
Leaders are now taking measures that would have been unthinkable weeks or even days ago, locking down tens of millions of people from Berlin to Madrid and San Francisco and pouring billions into rescue plans.
But had they acted a few weeks earlier, they could perhaps have avoided much of the human tragedy and economic catastrophe they now face. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore, which had their first confirmed cases before Europe, but acted early and fast, still have deaths in single digits and, at most, a few hundred cases.
Taiwan, helped perhaps by having an epidemiologist as vice-president, started tracing passengers from Wuhan as soon as China warned of a new type of pneumonia in the city last December, before Covid-19 was identified. Social distancing, ramped-up testing and contact-tracing followed soon after.
Most western countries did little, apart from developing a modest testing capacity – apparently gambling on the disease being contained elsewhere, as previous threatened epidemics, including Sars in 2002-03 and more recently Ebola and Mers, had been.
"The challenge faced by government is whether and when to act on a health threat. If you act swiftly and the outbreak isn't as bad as feared, then government gets criticised for overreacting. If you adopt a wait-and-see approach and move too slowly, then government gets criticised for underreacting," says Steve Taylor, professor at the University of British Columbia and author of The Psychology of Pandemics.
"In hindsight, the UK might have been better off if they had adopted the same practices as Taiwan. But if the outbreak had fizzled, the government would have been criticised for overreacting. Taiwan gambled successfully on the assumption that Covid-19 would spread widely and rapidly."
Other countries that initially allowed the disease to spread – most notably South Korea, which at one point was the country with the most infections outside China – managed to partially tame the outbreak through rigorous testing and tracing contacts of those infected. Subsequently, new infections levelled off, even as they spiralled across Europe.
"I do think we can learn from past mistakes, and South Korea is a really strong example of that if you look at the amount of testing they have been doing, and how fast they were able to mobilise," said Ashley Arabasadi, chair emeritus of the Global Health Security Agenda Consortium.
"It might be unfair to criticise governments that haven't had to deal with something like this in over 100 years, while South Korea have had more recent experience."
South Korea's sense of urgency was driven in part by recent firsthand experience of how virulent coronaviruses can be due to an outbreak of Mers in 2015 and the 2002-03 Sars epidemic, which also affected Taiwan, Hong Kong and others in the region.
Those diseases barely touched the west, being contained, like others including Ebola, near the site of their outbreak, potentially leaving the west's leaders too complacent.
"We should have used that time [in January and February] more wisely, but, to be fair, everyone was dealing with an unknown," said Laura Spinney, a science journalist whose latest book is Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World. Authorities didn't want to cause panic initially, she said, but then the balance shifted so "the biggest danger was not panic – it was complacency, and too many governments weren't moving".
There is a chance some politicians in the US and Europe, lulled by decades of stability in their countries after the second world war – decades in which they have waged war overseas but never seen life totally upended at home – simply didn't want to recognise the threat.
"People are not terribly good at estimating risk. Wishful thinking, overestimation of resources, and other factors can cloud our judgment of risk. This may have happened during the current pandemic," Taylor said.
It's important, however, that whenever the world does successfully develop a vaccine, or a cure for Covid-19, the tragic lessons of these early crises are not forgotten. Governments need to invest in healthcare systems, so that when the next pandemic arrives, we are better prepared.
"You see a system of panic and response that we go into. Once that initial panic dies down, you get complacency, a lack of understanding that these novel viruses happen regularly and will happen with greater frequency as we become more interconnected," said Arabasadi. "That's why there needs to be a greater investment in health and health systems."
Instead of combating the virus and safeguarding its people, the Iranian government is busy spreading crazy conspiracy theories that America is responsible for the virus, or at least is lending those outlandish ideas of some of its clerics some plausibility. Rejecting humanitarian offers of help, Iran's leader Ayatollah Khamenei said this below:
"Washington has offered humanitarian assistance to its longtime foe, the Middle Eastern country most affected by the coronavirus, with 1,685 deaths and 21,638 people infected.
Tensions between the two countries have been running high since 2018, when U.S. President Donald Trump exited Tehran's 2015 nuclear deal with six world powers and reimposed sanctions that have crippled the Iranian economy.
"Several times Americans have offered to help us to fight the pandemic. That is strange because you face shortages in America. Also you are accused of creating this virus," said Khamenei, an anti-U.S. hardliner who has the final say in Iran.
"I do not know whether it is true. But when there is such an allegation, can a wise man trust you and accept your help offer? ... You could be giving medicines to Iran that spread the virus or cause it to remain permanently."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-iran/irans-khamenei-rejects-u-s-help-offer-vows-to-defeat-coronavirus-idUSKBN21909Y
Meanwhile, in India, there are 354 cases and 6 deaths. Not bad for a Country with 1.34 Billion People that shares a border with China. It's because of tough measures. I'd call that an Incredible Success Rate. The vast majority of Indians, in my estimation, support taking such measures to beat the virus.
Xavier,
Why are you swamping this thread with endless news reports that can easily be read elsewhere?
Are there no 'Marian' visions for you to swamp the forum with, as you usually do?
You're behaving like a bully,
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 22, 2020, 05:52:16 AM
Why are you swamping this thread with endless news reports that can easily be read elsewhere?
Your only recourse is to block him. He is immune to sarcasm and mockery.
Believe me, I have tried.
You're the one trying to bully us who are correcting the misinformation spread by the virus-deniers/virus-sympathizers, or whatever else you want to call yourselves; you didn't say anything about Dr. Li Wenliang. Does it matter to you or not that he heroically warned the world about the danger of this virus, trying to saving lives? We're continuing the noble work that he began; and whether you know it or not, there is a human cost to the crazy conspiracy theories some of you are spreading, as the example of Iran and other countries shows.
Believe what you want. I usually wouldn't care about whatever virus-deniers or flat-earthers want to believe. I disagree with both of them, but I usually don't care about it. But here, it costs lives. So I will continue to spread the Truth. You can continue to spread whatever it is that you believe. Truth will win out in the end.
This virus is not just an ordinary flu, is highly contagious and highly dangerous to the 'at risk'....it is real and it needs to be tackled..but
I am beginning to think that we should quarantine the 10% of high risk people, pull all our resources into cocooning them and keeping them safe. The army and the police to monitor and keep the at risk group safe, enforce social distancing for them. By and large put the lockdown in place for the 10% and keep the hospital resources for them. Let the other 90% continue to work and let the virus firebomb through our bodies and develop our own immunity to it for next year. We are using 100% of our resources for 100% of the population when really we should be giving 100% to 10% of our population.
Is it too late to start an online momentum of this thought? Am I wrong?
Here's another video for anybody who is still thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2p_HS9alKk&feature=youtu.be
Warning: It uses dialectic arguments. If you only respond to rhetoric then I would not bother (/sarcasm)
TLDR; The crisis will be over in the next 7 days to 2 weeks. The damage to the economy on the other hand ...
QuoteIs it too late to start an online momentum of this thought? Am I wrong?
#StopThePanic
But yeah, it's too late.
Quote from: clau clau on March 22, 2020, 06:23:07 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 22, 2020, 05:52:16 AM
Why are you swamping this thread with endless news reports that can easily be read elsewhere?
Your only recourse is to block him. He is immune to sarcasm and mockery.
Believe me, I have tried.
It's a shame it has to come to that, but I just can't take it any more.
Worldwide 325,000 cases, nearly 14,000 deaths. Cases in the US reach 30,000 with 6000 today. 375 deaths in Spain.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 22, 2020, 04:01:13 AM
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 21, 2020, 08:07:58 PM
Awkward,
I share your incredulity in post 1085. It's not that I doubt that others feel optimistic; it's that I merely am less confident about how I myself (and loved ones) will fare in the entire build up and reign of the Antichrist (yes 3.5 years, the latter).
That is, while I believe that Christ eventually triumphs and that He is in fact in control right now, I do not necessarily see myself as benefiting spiritually from this phase. I am not confident that this restricted way of life will be as temporary as publicized. My sister's excellent physician, who has tested her twice now (sis is recovering from a sudden case of pneumonia), thinks that Covid will continue to show increases through Fall. I do not see how the populace does not become restless before then, and begin to rebel, even riot, turn to crime, and endanger already fragile services and economies.
Thank you for this. I'm glad your sister is recovering. You mentioned in a previous post that you and your family suspected she may have had the coronavirus. You mention that she has been tested twice now?
And Christ will certainly triumph. In fact, He already has conquered the world. It's just that the final chapter hasn't been played out yet and I have a strong suspicion that this is it, the final act of the Gospel drama. And unfortunately, the final chapter involves some fairly unpleasant happenings.
If the NWO is being imposed on us as we speak, IF, then we will find out how public disorder is dealt with. There may not be riots at first. I'm wondering if people might start deliberately defying the order to stay at home and hold outdoor gatherings and street parties, as acts of defiance. We'll see how the authorities deal with this kind of action and any riots that might follow. My suspicion is that we'll suddenly witness a level of brutality that we hitherto thought impossible. The gloves will be off because they won't be needed any more.
To me it makes no difference if this is a bioweapon, or if there's no such thing as viruses, or if 5G is involved. The real problem is the massive and highly coordinated media campaign that rolls on and on, determined to control the narrative that the whole world must be locked down because of this illness. I believe that President Trump and Boris Johnson have tried to react with a light touch but have been put under tremendous pressure to get with the programme, including from those researchers at Imperial College, London, whose report was quoted by Vetus Ordo earlier and who turn out to be working for the World Health Organisation which is about as trustworthy as the UN.
Have you noticed how consistently the media narrative is being ramped up, in line with ever more ominous warnings from governments, health bodies and international agencies. Initially the UK shutdown was only supposed to be for 6 weeks, and then we were told it might last a year. And today we're being told that the UK will become like Italy, presumably with martial law included.
We're being played like fiddles. Towards the end of last year, I started having a feeling that something 'big' was about to happen. I hope this isn't it.
As for spiritual development during all this. Keep the Faith, no matter what, is all I can think of.
I am glad I read this post. We are in for a long, long wrecking ride on a runaway train, I suppose. Where it stops, no body knows.
Quote from: Xavier on March 22, 2020, 05:30:17 AMInstead of combating the virus and safeguarding its people, the Iranian government is busy spreading crazy conspiracy theories that America is responsible for the virus, or at least is lending those outlandish ideas of some of its clerics some plausibility. Rejecting humanitarian offers of help, Iran's leader Ayatollah Khamenei said this below:
"Washington has offered humanitarian assistance to its longtime foe, the Middle Eastern country most affected by the coronavirus, with 1,685 deaths and 21,638 people infected.
Tensions between the two countries have been running high since 2018, when U.S. President Donald Trump exited Tehran's 2015 nuclear deal with six world powers and reimposed sanctions that have crippled the Iranian economy.
"Several times Americans have offered to help us to fight the pandemic. That is strange because you face shortages in America. Also you are accused of creating this virus," said Khamenei, an anti-U.S. hardliner who has the final say in Iran.
"I do not know whether it is true. But when there is such an allegation, can a wise man trust you and accept your help offer? ... You could be giving medicines to Iran that spread the virus or cause it to remain permanently."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-iran/irans-khamenei-rejects-u-s-help-offer-vows-to-defeat-coronavirus-idUSKBN21909Y
I'd be suspicious of American help too if I were the Iranian regime, given the long time enmity between the US and Iran and all the sanctions they've been suffering for years.
Todays stats from Ireland. We are shut down since thurs march 12th.
Of 712 cases which they have studied so far, they found: (actually over 900 cases)
55% are male and 44% are female, with 35 clusters involving 190 cases
The median age of confirmed cases is 44 years
211 cases (30%) have been hospitalised
Of those hospitalised, 17 cases have been admitted to ICU
159 cases (22%) are associated with healthcare workers
Dublin has the highest number of cases at 402, (56% of all cases) followed by Cork with 101 cases (14%)
There is now at least one confirmed case of Covid-19 in every county in Ireland
Of those for whom transmission status is known, community transmission accounts for 44%, close contact accounts for 23% and travel abroad accounts for 33%.
Quote from: diaduit on March 22, 2020, 12:50:55 PM
Of those for whom transmission status is known, community transmission accounts for 44%, close contact accounts for 23% and travel abroad accounts for 33%.
Can you or someone else explain the difference between community transmission and close contact? Does the latter mean family/spouses/ "partners"/co-workers? And "community" means "unknown source (i.e., strangers) but not travel"?
Personally not sure myself what 'community transmission' means. Maybe it means going to the shops for some messages or just walking in a busy spot.
"To put all these figures in perspective, please note that every human being in the United Kingdom suffers from a fatal condition – being alive."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8138675/PETER-HITCHENS-shutting-Britain-REALLY-right-answer.html
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 22, 2020, 01:25:26 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 22, 2020, 12:50:55 PM
Of those for whom transmission status is known, community transmission accounts for 44%, close contact accounts for 23% and travel abroad accounts for 33%.
Can you or someone else explain the difference between community transmission and close contact? Does the latter mean family/spouses/ "partners"/co-workers? And "community" means "unknown source (i.e., strangers) but not travel"?
Quote from: Prayerful on March 22, 2020, 01:28:37 PM
Personally not sure myself what 'community transmission' means. Maybe it means going to the shops for some messages or just walking in a busy spot.
Community transmission occurs when a person with no travel history to a Covid-19-affected country or known contact with a confirmed case tests positive for the disease. It indicates that undiagnosed and often asymptomatic people are unknowingly causing infection, which makes it difficult to break the chain of transmission.
COVID-19 has been declared a global pandemic. Businesses have shuttered, classes have been canceled, and financial markets have taken significant hits. This is a critical time for information but also for the support and reassurance that science and evidence can offer. What actions do we know are effective in pandemics? Does social distancing truly make a difference in an outbreak? What have we learned about COVID-19 that can inform how we prepare and respond in our daily lives? Experts from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health address these questions and more in a 30-minute webcast recorded at 11:30 a.m. EDT on Tuesday, March 17, 2020.
Featuring: Andy Pekosz, PhD, Professor, Molecular Microbiology and Immunology and Caitlin Rivers, PhD, MPH Senior Scholar, Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security. Moderator: Josh Sharfstein, MD Vice Dean for Public Health Practice and Community Engagement.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_S9VFLoL8U[/yt]
Quote from: Aeternitus on March 22, 2020, 01:41:34 PM
"To put all these figures in perspective, please note that every human being in the United Kingdom suffers from a fatal condition – being alive."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8138675/PETER-HITCHENS-shutting-Britain-REALLY-right-answer.html
Here's an interesting few paragraphs from Peter Hitchens' article.
Quote
We are warned of supposedly devastating death rates. But at least one expert, John Ioannidis, is not so sure. He is Professor of Medicine, of epidemiology and population health, of biomedical data science, and of statistics at Stanford University in California. He says the data are utterly unreliable because so many cases are going unrecorded.
He warns: 'This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4 per cent rate from the World Health Organisation, cause horror and are meaningless.' In only one place – aboard the cruise ship Diamond Princess – has an entire closed community been available for study. And the death rate there – just one per cent – is distorted because so many of those aboard were elderly. The real rate, adjusted for a wide age range, could be as low as 0.05 per cent and as high as one per cent.
As Prof Ioannidis says: 'That huge range markedly affects how severe the pandemic is and what should be done. A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05 per cent is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It's like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.'
Another first-hand testimony.
This time from Dr. Sylvia Bignamini, the Health Director of San Francesco Clinic in Bergamo, Italy. Bergamo, as you know, was at the epicentre of the outbreak of the virus in Lombardy. She conducted the first coronavirus test in her nursing home in late February and also caught the virus herself. She is now living and working in isolation at home. To sum up her advice: for the benefit of those around us, we should act as if we are all positive.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkozG3IcXUU[/yt]
Italy: 59,000 cases, 5476 deaths. If they remain on the curve, 15,000 deaths by next Sunday.
USA: 32,400 cases, 414 deaths. I had predicted 300. Next Sunday: 1200 dead.
Note in less than a month Italy has surpassed their average annual death by flu, which is 5,000.
Quote from: james03 on March 22, 2020, 04:19:40 PM
Italy: 59,000 cases, 5476 deaths. If they remain on the curve, 15,000 deaths by next Sunday.
USA: 32,400 cases, 414 deaths. I had predicted 300. Next Sunday: 1200 dead.
Note in less than a month Italy has surpassed their average annual death by flu, which is 5,000.
James, where did you get the figure of 5,000 for the average annual flu death rate in Italy.
According to the study I posted earlier, your figure is far too low.
The study is titled 'Investigating the impact of influenza on excess mortality in all ages in Italy during recent seasons (2013/14–2016/17 seasons)' and these are its highlights, also posted earlier -
Quote
• In the winter seasons from 2013/14 to 2016/17, an estimated average of 5,290,000 ILI cases occurred in Italy, corresponding to an incidence of 9%.
• More than 68,000 deaths attributable to flu epidemics were estimated in the study period.
• Italy showed a higher influenza attributable excess mortality compared to other European countries. especially in the elderly.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971219303285
Therefore, over four winter seasons, seasons not years, 68,000 people in Italy died of flu.
That's an average of 17,000 flu deaths in Italy per winter season, not 5,000 per year as you claim in your post.
Fine, we'll use 17,000. They'll come close to taking that out by next week.
So, an average of 17,000 people died in Italy from flu during each of the four winter seasons between 2013/14 and 2016/17.
The latest figure for corona flu deaths in Italy is 5476.
Therefore in terms of winter flu deaths in Italy the figures demonstrate that nothing unusual is happening.
Why, then, is Italy being placed under martial law?
An Oklahoma gal gives her situation after her Covids started acting up. Basically a mild disease.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlTsclWu2Y[/yt]
Explain this to me my dear friends. A young, 28 year old girl drops dead. Posthumously declared a coronavirus victim. Now could a virus kill someone without symptoms or perhaps it is possible we are dealing with something else in addition to the virus.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 22, 2020, 05:21:51 PM
So, an average of 17,000 people died in Italy from flu during each of the four winter seasons between 2013/14 and 2016/17.
The latest figure for corona flu deaths in Italy is 5476.
Therefore in terms of winter flu deaths in Italy the figures demonstrate that nothing unusual is happening.
Why, then, is Italy being placed under martial law?
Presumably because on top of those 17,000 deaths that occur annually from the flu, they have an uncontrolled spike of patients afflicted with the corona virus flooding their ER. So instead of treating the normal influx of patients with the flu, they have to treat an inordinate amount of new patients in a short period of time with more severe symptoms for which there's no logistical capacity. This gets even more tragic for those people who have no flu and no corona virus themselves but need hospital treatment for other conditions. It's a domino effect. The health professionals on the field all say the same thing, either in Italy, Spain or the United States. It's a serious thing, it's not just media perception. Have you listened to Dr. Bignamini's testimony?
It's not the end of the world, we'll rebound from it but it's a real crisis that needs to be addressed. Since we have no vaccine and no effective treatment right now, the only way to slow it down is through social isolation and quarantine. There's a compromise to be had between addressing this health crisis and preventing the economies from collapsing but it's obvious by now that something has to be done if you don't want the number of infections to completely spiral out of control.
QuoteSo Davis, respectfully, I'm not sure if these are rhetorical "if" questions you asked above. Of course, if people are critically ill or dying from a particularly aggressive virus -- tested or not -- then those patients may have Covid if the behavior of the virus is new/unique/unprecedented.
Miriam,
My questions were not rhetorical. This is how I think people should look at things to judge whether or not there is a true threat at hand. Additionally I would look at the level of response by serious unrelated governments and see if they are extreme or not. A yes to all five of these questions indicates there is something dangerous afoot. A no to the fifth question (about governments) need not nullify the former four because governments can choose to just ignore the crisis as they habitually do.
Reports from doctor on the frontlines:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/holy-shit-not-flu-medical-worker-describes-terrifying-lung-failure-covid-19-even-young
(chopping it up to get to key parts)
QuoteSince last week, he's been running ventilators for the sickest COVID-19 patients. Many are relatively young, in their 40s and 50s, and have minimal, if any, preexisting conditions in their charts. He is overwhelmed, stunned by the manifestation of the infection, both its speed and intensity. The ICU where he works has essentially become a coronavirus unit. He estimates that his hospital has admitted dozens of confirmed or presumptive coronavirus patients. About a third have ended up on ventilators.
"Reading about it in the news, I knew it was going to be bad, but we deal with the flu every year so I was thinking: Well, it's probably not that much worse than the flu. But seeing patients with COVID-19 completely changed my perspective, and it's a lot more frightening."
"I have patients in their early 40s and, yeah, I was kind of shocked. I'm seeing people who look relatively healthy with a minimal health history, and they are completely wiped out, like they've been hit by a truck. This is knocking out what should be perfectly fit, healthy people. Patients will be on minimal support, on a little bit of oxygen, and then all of a sudden, they go into complete respiratory arrest, shut down and can't breathe at all."
"Normally, ARDS is something that happens over time as the lungs get more and more inflamed. But with this virus, it seems like it happens overnight.
With our coronavirus patients, once they're on ventilators, most need about the highest settings that we can do. About 90% oxygen, and 16 of PEEP, positive end-expiratory pressure, which keeps the lung inflated. This is nearly as high as I've ever seen. The level we're at means we are running out of options.
"In my experience, this severity of ARDS is usually more typical of someone who has a near drowning experience — they have a bunch of dirty water in their lungs — or people who inhale caustic gas. Especially for it to have such an acute onset like that. I've never seen a microorganism or an infectious process cause such acute damage to the lungs so rapidly. That was what really shocked me."
"It first struck me how different it was when I saw my first coronavirus patient go bad. I was like, Holy shit, this is not the flu. Watching this relatively young guy, gasping for air, pink frothy secretions coming out of his tube and out of his mouth. The ventilator should have been doing the work of breathing but he was still gasping for air, moving his mouth, moving his body, struggling. We had to restrain him. With all the coronavirus patients, we've had to restrain them. They really hyperventilate, really struggle to breathe. When you're in that mindstate of struggling to breathe and delirious with fever, you don't know when someone is trying to help you, so you'll try to rip the breathing tube out because you feel it is choking you, but you are drowning.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 22, 2020, 05:47:32 PM
Presumably because on top of those 17,000 deaths that occur annually from the flu, they have an uncontrolled spike of patients afflicted with the corona virus flooding their ER. So instead of treating the normal influx of patients with the flu, they have to treat an inordinate amount of new patients in a short period of time with more severe symptoms for which there's no logistical capacity.
Or people are dying of the corona flu virus instead of one of the other flu viruses that do the rounds each year and the overall flu death rates will stay roughly the same. Unless the Italians bump up the figures by over-attributing deaths to the corona flu as it's already been suggested that they do.
See how it keeps ramping up.
Quote
Coronavirus: 24 hours to avoid complete lockdown as Boris Johnson says stay-at-home advice is being ignored
Prime Minister threatens Italian-style restrictions to enforce social distancing
Boris Johnson warned Britain faced a total lockdown within 24 hours amid growing concern at the failure of the public to heed demands for "social distancing" to prevent the coronavirus spreading.
He said the UK could follow France, Italy and Spain where people's movements have been restricted by police, curfews have been imposed, parks closed and all stores except food shops and pharmacies shut.
His comments came after a weekend in which thousands of people spurned the Government's "stay home" advice to take advantage of the Mothering Sunday weekend sunshine to crowd towns and parks and go shopping.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/03/22/coronavirus-24-hours-avoid-complete-lockdown-boris-johnson-says/
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 22, 2020, 07:10:43 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 22, 2020, 05:47:32 PM
Presumably because on top of those 17,000 deaths that occur annually from the flu, they have an uncontrolled spike of patients afflicted with the corona virus flooding their ER. So instead of treating the normal influx of patients with the flu, they have to treat an inordinate amount of new patients in a short period of time with more severe symptoms for which there's no logistical capacity.
Or people are dying of the corona flu virus instead of one of the other flu viruses that do the rounds each year and the overall flu death rates will stay roughly the same. Unless the Italians bump up the figures by over-attributing deaths to the corona flu as it's already been suggested that they do.
The situation on the ground is not that of even an abnormally aggressive flu season. You're completely ignoring the actual health professionals that have to deal with this mess.
Check out this Spanish doctor crying and explaining that they're taking away ventilators from +65 year-olds to give them to younger people. The older people get sedatives to die less painfully.
https://twitter.com/Fred_Adri/status/1241797518775779328?s=08 (https://twitter.com/Fred_Adri/status/1241797518775779328?s=08)
I note with interest that people who say they refuse to trust any mainstream media whatsoever will still upvote mainstream media articles and cite mainstream media facts and figures when they believe it serves their purposes.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 22, 2020, 08:11:58 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 22, 2020, 07:10:43 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 22, 2020, 05:47:32 PM
Presumably because on top of those 17,000 deaths that occur annually from the flu, they have an uncontrolled spike of patients afflicted with the corona virus flooding their ER. So instead of treating the normal influx of patients with the flu, they have to treat an inordinate amount of new patients in a short period of time with more severe symptoms for which there's no logistical capacity.
Or people are dying of the corona flu virus instead of one of the other flu viruses that do the rounds each year and the overall flu death rates will stay roughly the same. Unless the Italians bump up the figures by over-attributing deaths to the corona flu as it's already been suggested that they do.
The situation on the ground is not that of even an abnormally aggressive flu season. You're completely ignoring the actual health professionals that have to deal with this mess.
Check out this Spanish doctor crying and explaining that they're taking away ventilators from +65 year-olds to give them to younger people. The older people get sedatives to die less painfully.
https://twitter.com/Fred_Adri/status/1241797518775779328?s=08 (https://twitter.com/Fred_Adri/status/1241797518775779328?s=08)
We've had this discussion before, about different doctors in Italy.
So let me ask - why do you believe what you're being told about the corona flu? Do you have any doubts at all? And if not, why not?
Nearly 350,000 cases and 15,000 deaths. That's a Case Fatality rate of over 4%, around 4.2%, among known cases. The case fatality rate for the flu, among known cases, is around 0.1%. For the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918, it was around 2%. These are among known cases.
No one knows for sure what the figure is among unknown cases; but even if, for e.g. we suppose there are 400,000 unknown cases with no deaths, the death rate would still be 2%, which is a significant number.
In reality, the death toll in both China and Iran is probably higher than reported; and under-reporting deaths is likely to skew the Case to Death Ratio, or Case Fatality Rate, very much in fact in the other direction.
If, just as an example, there are just 6000 more deaths than are reported, what would be the new Case Fatality Rate? It would be 6%.
We saw earlier that the daily global death toll for the flu is about 1300. Well, even though we are still in the early stages with SARS-COV-19, with the world reacting hardly 10 days ago, the number was over 1650 yesterday: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Governments are reacting now because they are seeing for themselves the exponential growth rates in cases and deaths, and in the number of ICU beds and hospital ventilators that are needed, well beyond capacity.
They project that deaths are likely to increase to being 2000 to 3000 daily, and then hospices will be overwhelmed; if there had been a delay of 2 more months, it may have been too late. This would be around a million deaths a year.
The good news is that, based on the example of China, which instituted a lockdown January 23rd, and just came out of it, is that it should be possible to contain the spread of the virus in about 2 months with seriousness.
The end goal is not only to merely contain the virus but also to destroy it; for that, some kind of a cure will need to be developed.
[Edit: it's also been seen that SARS-COV-19 is more deadly and has caused more deaths than all of SARS, MERS and Ebola. As for Pneumonia, Deaths in Italy were around 9000 annually. With 6000 deaths and 60000 cases in Italy in just about a single month, it is obvious the annual death toll will be far, far higher than that if a year rolls on without the novel coronavirus being defeated.]
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 22, 2020, 07:10:43 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 22, 2020, 05:47:32 PM
Presumably because on top of those 17,000 deaths that occur annually from the flu, they have an uncontrolled spike of patients afflicted with the corona virus flooding their ER. So instead of treating the normal influx of patients with the flu, they have to treat an inordinate amount of new patients in a short period of time with more severe symptoms for which there's no logistical capacity.
Or people are dying of the corona flu virus instead of one of the other flu viruses that do the rounds each year and the overall flu death rates will stay roughly the same. Unless the Italians bump up the figures by over-attributing deaths to the corona flu as it's already been suggested that they do.
Are there others besides you that are suggesting that the Italians bump up the figures by over-attributing deaths to the corona virus? If so please show proof.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 22, 2020, 08:11:58 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 22, 2020, 07:10:43 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 22, 2020, 05:47:32 PM
Presumably because on top of those 17,000 deaths that occur annually from the flu, they have an uncontrolled spike of patients afflicted with the corona virus flooding their ER. So instead of treating the normal influx of patients with the flu, they have to treat an inordinate amount of new patients in a short period of time with more severe symptoms for which there's no logistical capacity.
Or people are dying of the corona flu virus instead of one of the other flu viruses that do the rounds each year and the overall flu death rates will stay roughly the same. Unless the Italians bump up the figures by over-attributing deaths to the corona flu as it's already been suggested that they do.
The situation on the ground is not that of even an abnormally aggressive flu season. You're completely ignoring the actual health professionals that have to deal with this mess.
Check out this Spanish doctor crying and explaining that they're taking away ventilators from +65 year-olds to give them to younger people. The older people get sedatives to die less painfully.
https://twitter.com/Fred_Adri/status/1241797518775779328?s=08 (https://twitter.com/Fred_Adri/status/1241797518775779328?s=08)
So the young and dumb and even some middle aged and stupid can avoid social distancing like they have been advised to do, but yet when they get terribly sick with the corona virus they get the 65 year old's ventilator and the 65 year old is left to die. That shouldn't happen if it's found out that the young and dumb or the middle aged and stupid were avoiding the social distancing advise. And especially if the social distancing was made law in that area.
QuoteSo let me ask - why do you believe what you're being told about the corona flu? Do you have any doubts at all? And if not, why not?
Stating this not to be pedantic but it is not the corona flu, the flu is a specific strain of virus. This is not a flu virus. It is a corona virus. I only correct because I think it muddies our thinking to call it something that it is not.
Specifically to you question, I believe what is said because there are crises in multiple countries and nearly every country, many of which are enemies, is taking this seriously. Back when it was China alone it was potentially just a toxic spill. When it spread to Japanese people on the Diamond Princess in Japan it was almost certainly a pandemic. Then Taiwan (enemy of mainland China), Macau, Hong Kong and Singapore all began banning entry from mainlanders. Then it went to Korea, Iran, and northern Italy. Deaths are now occurring in every country and medical professionals from all countries are talking about how giant a crisis this is. You can find videos on Twitter of hospital beds in parking garages in Iran. There are undercover videos from Turkey of medical meetings discussing the crisis.
Do I have any doubts at all? No, it is obviously a pandemic. The only question is how deadly it is. It looks bad enough to take it very seriously, but I don't know if its 0.5% death rate or 5%. That will be better understood years down the line after serious people attempt serious measurements at the pandemic in its entirety.
By the way, just because elites will take advantage of a crisis does not mean the crisis is fake. Its just what a skilled power player does - he sees a crisis and capitalizes on it.
Message from Alexander Tschugguel, the hero who chucked the Pachamama idols into the Tiber:
"Alexander Tschugguel, the militant Catholic Austrian who has been hospitalized with the coronavirus, sent us this message which we publish in order to share it and unite ourselves with his sufferings and prayers.
Dear friends and supporters,
Many thanks for all of your prayer and your encouragement in recent days. It is now the 15th day of my illness and I am slowly on the path to recovery. The virus strikes much harder than expected and it strikes people of all ages. Now we must learn to confront it, which means understanding that God requires sacrifice from each of us. And during this Lent he is asking more from us than usual. Today we must contain ourselves a lot and know how to renounce many things and do penance for all of the evil things in the world, and especially for all of the evil things that have happened within the Church. God, in his immense Providence, has placed these limitations on us, and we must see them as a Cross that we must carry, above all for those for whom the virus was lethal, for all the families that have been destroyed, for all of the aborted babies, for the destruction of our homelands. For all of this suffering, we must now sacrifice our freedom, our prosperity and our usual way of life. Let's do it together as believers. We can be certain that God will never deceive or disappoint us.
As soon as I am well, I will make a video about this virus and I will tell you how it makes you feel and what it does to you.
Cordial greetings, and may God bless us,
Alexander Tschugguel"
It's Plato's cave now boys and girls. Nothing matters. We are all fecked ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave
Perhaps it always was.
It was funny to look at the thread this morning. Just a sea of "you have blocked this user".
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Goodbye SD
edit: Had a bad day yesterday so perhaps I overreacted but self-quarantining, metaphorically, until Easter.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIw14TwJvZc[/yt]
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 22, 2020, 11:05:23 PM
QuoteSo let me ask - why do you believe what you're being told about the corona flu? Do you have any doubts at all? And if not, why not?
Stating this not to be pedantic but it is not the corona flu, the flu is a specific strain of virus. This is not a flu virus. It is a corona virus. I only correct because I think it muddies our thinking to call it something that it is not.
Specifically to you question, I believe what is said because there are crises in multiple countries and nearly every country, many of which are enemies, is taking this seriously. Back when it was China alone it was potentially just a toxic spill. When it spread to Japanese people on the Diamond Princess in Japan it was almost certainly a pandemic. Then Taiwan (enemy of mainland China), Macau, Hong Kong and Singapore all began banning entry from mainlanders. Then it went to Korea, Iran, and northern Italy. Deaths are now occurring in every country and medical professionals from all countries are talking about how giant a crisis this is. You can find videos on Twitter of hospital beds in parking garages in Iran. There are undercover videos from Turkey of medical meetings discussing the crisis.
Do I have any doubts at all? No, it is obviously a pandemic. The only question is how deadly it is. It looks bad enough to take it very seriously, but I don't know if its 0.5% death rate or 5%. That will be better understood years down the line after serious people attempt serious measurements at the pandemic in its entirety.
By the way, just because elites will take advantage of a crisis does not mean the crisis is fake. Its just what a skilled power player does - he sees a crisis and capitalizes on it.
This is where I am at.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 22, 2020, 06:57:30 PM
Reports from doctor on the frontlines:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/holy-shit-not-flu-medical-worker-describes-terrifying-lung-failure-covid-19-even-young
I did read this full account elsewhere, and I admit it's frightening.
I think, to clarify or maybe modify my own position:
It's not that I'm trying to deny a dangerous situation exists, particularly if allowed to be ignored. My biggest concern at the moment, aside from the testing problems and the medical workers being sufficiently supplied and protected, is that there is no coordinated agreement by people making these decisions affecting people's lives (like, it's okay if you go broke and starve; dying from something other than Covid is perfectly okay).
What will cause decision-makers to change or not change during "re-assessment" after the designated period of time -- time which also varies -- several weeks, several months, two years? Will they only allow people to earn a living and Catholics to receive the sacraments if:
1 - the curve is actually flat?
2 - the curve is reduced (and by what amount will make them happy)?
3 - no one is in the ICU anywhere in the country?
4 - there are no more deaths from it in a particular region or county?
5 - there is merely a decline in cases? If so, what percentage will satisfy them?
6 - there are no new cases in a region?
7 - a successful vaccine is ready to be distributed? (12-18 months from now, if that)
I think communication about #1-7 is not too much to ask of people in power.
Make a decision already, and let us know what the parameters will be.
I'd like opinions from members on the feasibility of these suggestions by medical experts in this article. The article draws from international data, recent and not, about measures that work and do not work.
I think one obstacle to making it work is simply the size of our country. This is a huge land mass to regulate, and notice that China was basically able to contain it within Wuhan; if that hadn't been possible, they would have a much worse situation.
I also wonder about the time it would take to isolate people in different locations than their homes. (The setting up of that, the complexity of some of the other suggestions in the article).
Thoughts?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-restrictions-us.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
Are Chinese officials hiding something?
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEe4nQ9lsk&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR1Jn9eCIuyAbNEaInovnaCvHJcoqXKPa-Wz2cDm6KjfzGqSFQlj2msDWEg[/yt]
PS: I was sceptical at the beginning but now I am convinced this virus is much moer than a virus and 5G makes it even harder to treat.
Also please if you haven;t already start supplementing vitamin c (bowel tolerance) usually around 15-20 grams daily, It is a must during this time
https://straightlinelogic.com/2020/03/22/the-best-article-yet-on-the-coronavirus-by-aaron-ginn/
QuoteCOVID-19 – Evidence Over Hysteria
by Aaron Ginn
After watching the outbreak of COVID-19 for the past two months, I've followed the pace of the infection, its severity, and how our world is tackling the virus. While we should be concerned and diligent, the situation has dramatically elevated to a mob-like fear spreading faster than COVID-19 itself.
When 13% of Americans believe they are currently infected with COVID-19 (mathematically impossible), full-on panic is blocking our ability to think clearly and determine how to deploy our resources to stop this virus. Over three-fourths of Americans are scared of what we are doing to our society through law and hysteria, not of infection or spreading COVID-19 to those most vulnerable.
The following article is a systematic overview of COVID-19 driven by data from medical professionals and academic articles that will help you understand what is going on (sources include CDC, WHO, NIH, NHS, University of Oxford, Stanford, Harvard, NEJM, JAMA, and several others). I'm quite experienced at understanding virality, how things grow, and data. In my vocation, I'm most known for popularizing the "growth hacking movement" in Silicon Valley that specializes in driving rapid and viral adoption of technology products. Data is data. Our focus here isn't treatments but numbers. You don't need a special degree to understand what the data says and doesn't say. Numbers are universal.
I hope you walk away with a more informed perspective on how you can help and fight back against the hysteria that is driving our country into a dark place. You can help us focus our scarce resources on those who are most vulnerable, who need our help.
Note: The following graphs and numbers are as of mid-March 2020. Things are moving quickly, so I update this article twice a day. Most graphs are as of March 20th, 2020.
* * *
Total cases are the wrong metric
A critical question to ask yourself when you first look at a data set is, "What is our metric for success?".
Look at all of those large red scary circles!
These images come from the now infamous John Hopkins COVID-19 tracking map. What started as a data transparency effort has now molded into an unintentional tool for hysteria and panic.
An important question to ask yourself is what do these bubbles actually mean? Each bubble represents the total number of COVID-19 cases per country. The situation looks serious, yet we know that this virus is over four months old, so how many of these cases are active?
Immediately, we now see that just under half of those terrifying red bubbles aren't relevant or actionable. The total number of cases isn't illustrative of what we should do now. This is a single vanity data point with no context; it isn't information or knowledge. To know how to respond, we need more numbers to tell a story and to paint the full picture. As a metaphor, the daily revenue of a business doesn't tell you a whole lot about profitability, capital structure, or overhead. The same goes for the total number of cases. The data isn't actionable. We need to look at ratios and percentages to tell us what to do next — conversion rate, growth rate, and severity.
Time lapsing new cases gives us perspective
Breaking down each country by the date of the first infection helps us track the growth and impact of the virus. We can see how total cases are growing against a consistent time scale.
Here are new cases time lapsed by country and date of first 100 total cases.
Here is a better picture of US confirmed case daily growth.
The United States is tracking with other European nations at doubling every three days or so. As we measure and test more Americans, this will continue to grow. Our time-lapse growth is lower than China, but not as good as South Korea, Japan, Singapore, or Taiwan. All are considered models of how to beat COVID-19. The United States is performing average, not great, compared to the other modern countries by this metric.
Still, there is a massive blindspot with this type of graph. None of these charts are weighted on a per-capita basis. It treats every country as a single entity, as we will see this fails to tell us what is going on in several aspects.
On a per-capita basis, we shouldn't be panicking
Every country has a different population size which skews aggregate and cumulative case comparisons. By controlling for population, you can properly weigh the number of cases in the context of the local population size. Viruses don't acknowledge our human borders. The US population is 5.5X greater than Italy, 6X larger than South Korea, and 25% the size of China. Comparing the US total number of cases in absolute terms is rather silly.
Rank ordering based on the total number of cases shows that the US on a per-capita basis is significantly lower than the top six nations by case volume. On a 1 million citizen per-capita basis, the US moves to above mid-pack of all countries and rising, with similar case volume as Singapore (385 cases), Cyprus (75 cases), and United Kingdom(3,983 cases). This is data as of March 20th, 2020.
But total cases even on a per-capita basis will always be a losing metric. The denominator (total population) is more or less fixed. We aren't having babies at the pace of viral growth. Per-capita won't explain how fast the virus is moving and if it is truly "exponential".
COVID-19 is spreading, but probably not accelerating
Growth rates are tricky to track over time. Smaller numbers are easy to move than larger numbers. As an example, GDP growth of 3% for the US means billions of dollars while 3% for Bermuda means millions. Generally, growth rates decline over time, but the nominal increase may still be significant. This holds true of daily confirmed case increases. Daily growth rates declined over time across all countries regardless of particular policy solutions, such as shutting the borders or social distancing.
The daily growth data across the world is a little noisy.
Weighing daily growth of confirmed cases by a relative daily growth factor cleans up the picture, more than 1 is increasing and below 1 is declining. For all of March, the world has hovered around 1.1. This translates to an average daily growth rate of 10%, with ups and downs on a daily basis. This isn't great, but it is good news as COVID-19 most likely isn't increasing in virality. The growth rate of the growth rate is approximately 10%; however, the data is quite noisy. With inconsistent country-to-country reporting and what qualifies as a confirmed case, the more likely explanation is that we are increasing our measurement, but the virus hasn't increased in viral capability. Recommended containment and prevention strategies are still quite effective at stopping the spread.
Cases globally are increasing (it is a virus after all!), but beware of believing metrics designed to intentionally scare like "cases doubling". These are typically small numbers over small numbers and sliced on a per-country basis. Globally, COVID-19's growth rate is rather steady. Remember, viruses ignore our national boundaries.
Viruses though don't grow infinitely forever and forever. As with most things in nature, viruses follow a common pattern — a bell curve.
Watch the Bell Curve
As COVID-19 spreads and declines (which it will decline despite what the media tells you), every country will follow a similar pattern. The following is a more detailed graph of S. Korea's successful defeat of COVID-19 compared also to China with thousands of more cases and deaths. It is a bell curve:
Here is a more detailed graph of S. Korea graphed against the total number of cases.
Here is a graph from Italy showing a bell curve in symptom onset and number of cases, which may point to the beginning of the end for Italy —
JAMA — https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/pages/coronavirus-alert
Bell curves is the dominant trait of outbreaks. A virus doesn't grow linearly forever. It accelerates, plateaus, and then declines. Whether it is environmental or our own efforts, viruses accelerate and quickly decline. This fact of nature is represented in Farr's law. CDC's of "bend the curve" or "flatten the curve" reflects this natural reality.
It is important to note that in both scenarios, the total number of COVID-19 cases will be similar. "Flattening the curve"'s focus is a shock to the healthcare system which can increase fatalities due to capacity constraints. In the long-term, it isn't infection prevention. Unfortunately, "flattening the curve" doesn't include other downsides and costs of execution.
Both the CDC and WHO are optimizing virality and healthcare utilization, while ignoring the economic shock to our system. Both organizations assume you are going to get infected, eventually, and it won't be that bad.
A low probability of catching COVID-19
The World Health Organization ("WHO") released a study on how China responded to COVID-19. Currently, this study is one of the most exhaustive pieces published on how the virus spreads.
The results of their research show that COVID-19 doesn't spread as easily as we first thought or the media had us believe (remember people abandoned their dogs out of fear of getting infected). According to their report if you come in contact with someone who tests positive for COVID-19 you have a 1–5% chance of catching it as well. The variability is large because the infection is based on the type of contact and how long.
The majority of viral infections come from prolonged exposures in confined spaces with other infected individuals. Person-to-person and surface contact is by far the most common cause. From the WHO report, "When a cluster of several infected people occurred in China, it was most often (78–85%) caused by an infection within the family by droplets and other carriers of infection in close contact with an infected person.
From the CDC's study on transmission in China and Princess Cruise outbreak –
A growing body of evidence indicates that COVID-19 transmission is facilitated in confined settings; for example, a large cluster (634 confirmed cases) of COVID-19 secondary infections occurred aboard a cruise ship in Japan, representing about one fifth of the persons aboard who were tested for the virus. This finding indicates the high transmissibility of COVID-19 in enclosed spaces
Dr. Paul Auwaerter, the Clinical Director for the Division of Infectious Diseases at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine echoes this finding,
"If you have a COVID-19 patient in your household, your risk of developing the infection is about 10%....If you were casually exposed to the virus in the workplace (e.g., you were not locked up in conference room for six hours with someone who was infected [like a hospital]), your chance of infection is about 0.5%"
According to Dr. Auwaerter, these transmission rates are very similar to the seasonal flu.
Air-based transmission or untraceable community spread is very unlikely. According to WHO's COVID-19 lead Maria Van Kerkhove, true community based spreading is very rare. The data from China shows that community-based spread was only a very small handful of cases. "This virus is not circulating in the community, even in the highest incidence areas across China," Van Kerkhove said.
"Transmission by fine aerosols in the air over long distances is not one of the main causes of spread. Most of the 2,055 infected hospital workers were either infected at home or in the early phase of the outbreak in Wuhan when hospital safeguards were not raised yet," she said.
True community spread involves transmission where people get infected in public spaces and there is no way to trace back the source of infection. WHO believes that is not what the Chinese data shows. If community spread was super common, it wouldn't be possible to reduce the new cases through "social distancing".
"We have never seen before a respiratory pathogen that's capable of community transmission but at the same time which can also be contained with the right measures. If this was an influenza epidemic, we would have expected to see widespread community transmission across the globe by now and efforts to slow it down or contain it would not be feasible," said Tedros Adhanom, Director-General of WHO.
An author of a working paper from the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at Princeton University said, "The current scientific consensus is that most transmission via respiratory secretions happens in the form of large respiratory droplets ... rather than small aerosols. Droplets, fortunately, are heavy enough that they don't travel very far and instead fall from the air after traveling only a few feet."
The media was put into a frenzy when the above authors released their study on COVID-19's ability to survive in the air. The study did find the virus could survive in the air for a couple of hours; however, this study was designed as academic exercise rather than a real-world test. This study put COVID-19 into a spray bottle to "mist" it into the air. I don't know anyone who coughs in mist form and it is unclear if the viral load was large enough to infect another individual As one doctor, who wants to remain anonymous, told me, "Corona doesn't have wings".
To summarize, China, Singapore, and South Korea's containment efforts worked because community-based and airborne transmission aren't common. The most common form of transmission is person-to-person or surface-based.
Common transmission surfaces
COVID-19's ability to live for a long period of time is limited on most surfaces and it is quite easy to kill with typical household cleaners, just like the normal flu.
COVID-19 be detected on copper after 4 hours and 24 hours on cardboard.
COVID-19 survived best on plastic and stainless steel, remaining viable for up to 72 hours
COVID-19 is very vulnerable to UV light and heat.
Presence doesn't mean infectious. The viral concentration falls significantly over time. The virus showed a half-life of about 0.8 hours on copper, 3.46 hours on cardboard, 5.6 hours on steel and 6.8 hours on plastic.
According to Dylan Morris, one of the authors, "We do not know how much virus is actually needed to infect a human being with high probability, nor how easily the virus is transferred from the cardboard to one's hand when touching a package"
According to Dr. Auwaerter, "It's thought that this virus can survive on surfaces such as hands, hard surfaces, and fabrics. Preliminary data indicates up to 72 hours on hard surfaces like steel and plastic, and up to 12 hours on fabric."
COVID-19 will likely "burn off" in the summer
Due to COVID-19's sensitivity to UV light and heat (just like the normal influenza virus), it is very likely that it will "burn off" as humidity increases and temperatures rise.
Released on March 10th, one study mapped COVID-19 virality capability by high temperature and high humidity. It found that both significantly reduced the ability of the virus to spread from person-to-person. From the study,
"This result is consistent with the fact that the high temperature and high humidity significantly reduce the transmission of influenza. It indicates that the arrival of summer and rainy season in the northern hemisphere can effectively reduce the transmission of the COVID-19."
The University of Maryland mapped severe COVID-19 outbreaks with local weather patterns around the world, from the US to China. They found that the virus thrives in a certain temperature and humidity channel. "The researchers found that all cities experiencing significant outbreaks of COVID-19 have very similar winter climates with an average temperature of 41 to 52 degrees Fahrenheit, an average humidity level of 47% to 79% with a narrow east-west distribution along the same 30–50 N" latitude", said the University of Maryland.
"Based on what we have documented so far, it appears that the virus has a harder time spreading between people in warmer, tropical climates," said study leader Mohammad Sajadi, MD, Associate Professor of Medicine in the UMSOM, physician-scientist at the Institute of Human Virology and a member of GVN.
In the image below, the zone at risk for a significant community spread in the near-term includes land areas within the green bands.
Children and Teens aren't at risk
It's already well established that the young aren't particularly vulnerable. In fact, there isn't a single death reported below the age of 10 in the world and most children who test positive don't show symptoms. As well, infection rates are lower for individuals below the age of 19, which is similar to SARS and MERS (COVID-19's sister viruses).
According to the WHO's COVID-19 mission in China, only 8.1% of cases were 20-somethings, 1.2% were teens, and 0.9% were 9 or younger. As of the study date February 20th, 78% of the cases reported were ages 30 to 69. The WHO hypothesizes this is for a biological reason and isn't related to lifestyle or exposure.
"Even when we looked at households, we did not find a single example of a child bringing the infection into the household and transmitting to the parents. It was the other way around. And the children tend to have a mild disease," said Van Kerkhove.
According to a WSJ article, children have a near-zero chance of becoming ill. They are more likely to get normal flu than COVID-19.
A World Health Organization report on China concluded that cases of Covid-19 in children were "relatively rare and mild." Among cases in people under age 19, only 2.5% developed severe disease while 0.2% developed critical disease. Among nearly 6,300 Covid-19 cases reported by the Korea Centers for Disease Control & Prevention on March 8, there were no reported deaths in anyone under 30. Only 0.7% of infections were in children under 9 and 4.6% of cases were in those ages 10 to 19 years old
Only 2% of the patients in a review of nearly 45,000 confirmed Covid-19 cases in China were children, and there were no reported deaths in children under 10, according to a study published in JAMA last month. (In contrast, there have been 136 pediatric deaths from influenza in the U.S. this flu season.)
About 8% of cases were in people in their 20s. Those 10 to 19 years old accounted for 1% of cases and those under 10 also accounted for only 1%.
However even if children and teens are not suffering severe symptoms themselves, they may "shed" large amounts of virus and may do so for many days, says James Campbell, a professor of pediatrics at the University of Maryland School of Medicine.
Children had a virus in their secretions for six to 22 days or an average of 12 days. "Shedding virus doesn't always mean you're able to transmit the virus", he notes. It is still important to consider that prolonged shedding of high viral loads from children is still a risky combination within the home since the majority of transmission occurs within a home-like confined environment.
A strong, but unknown viral effect
While the true viral capacity is unknown at this moment, it is theorized that COVID-19 is more than the seasonal flu but less than other viruses. The average number of people to which a single infected person will transmit the virus, or Ro, range from as low as 1.5 to a high of 3.0
Newer analysis suggests that this viral rate is declining. According to Nobel Laureate and biophysicist Michael Levitt, the infection rate is declining –
"Every coronavirus patient in China infected on average 2.2 people a day — spelling exponential growth that can only lead to disaster. But then it started dropping, and the number of new daily infections is now close to zero." He compared it to interest rates again: "even if the interest rate keeps dropping, you still make money. The sum you invested does not lessen, it just grows more slowly. When discussing diseases, it frightens people a lot because they keep hearing about new cases every day. But the fact that the infection rate is slowing down means the end of the pandemic is near."
What about asymptomatic spread?
The majority of cases see symptoms within a few days, not two weeks as originally believed.
On true asymptomatic spread, the data is still unclear but increasingly unlikely. Two studies point to a low infection rate from pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic individuals. One study said 10% of infections come from people who don't show symptoms, yet. Another WHO study reported 1.2% of confirmed cases were truly asymptomatic. Several studies confirming asymptotic spread have ended up disproven. It is important to note there is a difference between "never showing symptoms" and "pre-symptomatic" and the media is promoting an unproven narrative. Almost all people end up in the latter camp within five days, almost never the former. It is very unlikely for individuals with COVID-19 to never show symptoms. WHO and CDC claim that asymptomatic spread isn't a concern and quite rare.
Iceland is leading the global in testing its entire population of ~300,000 for asymptomatic spread, not just those that show symptoms. They randomly tested 1,800 citizens who don't show symptoms and, as far as they knew, were not exposed to positive individuals. Of this sample, only 19 tested positive for COVID-19, or 1.1% of the sample.
Obviously, this type of viral spread is the most concerning; however based on the level of media attention and the global size of positive infections, it seems more probable we keep looking for a COVID-19 viral trait that doesn't exist.
Another way of looking at virality and asymptotic spread is the number of flight attendants, airport staff, or pilots that have tested positive for COVID-19. Out of the thousands of flights since November 2019, only a handful of airport and airline staff have tested positive (such as AA pilot, some BA staff, and several TSA employees).
Outside of medical and hospital staff, these individuals are in greatest contact with infected persons in confined spaces. Despite having no protective gear and most likely these people were asymptomatic, airline and airport staff aren't likely to catch COVID-19 compared to the rest of the population. Those employed in the travel sector are infected at a lower rate than the general population or healthcare workers.
"We still believe, looking at the data, that the force of infection here, the major driver, is people who are symptomatic, unwell, and transmitting to others along the human-to-human route," Dr. Mike Ryan of WHO Emergencies Program.
If the symptoms are so close to other less fatal coronaviruses, what is the positivity rate of those tested?
93% of people who think they are positive aren't
Looking at the success in S. Korea and Singapore, the important tool in our war chest is measurement. If we are concerned about the general non-infected population, what is the probability those who show symptoms actually test positive? What is the chance that the cough from your neighbor is COVID-19? This "conversion rate" will show whether or not you have a cold (another coronavirus) or heading to isolation for two weeks. Global data shows that ~95% of people who are tested aren't positive. The positivity rate varies by country.
UK: 7,132 concluded tests, of which 13 positive (0.2% positivity rate).
UK: 48,492 tests, of which 1,950 (4.0% positivity rate)
Italy: 9,462 tests, of which 470 positive (at least 5.0% positivity rate).
Italy: 3,300 tests, of which 99 positive (3.0% positivity rate)
Iceland: 3,787 tests, of which 218 positive (5.7% positive rate)
France: 762 tests, of which 17 positive, 179 awaiting results (at least 2.2% positivity rate).
Austria: 321 tests, of which 2 positive, awaiting results: unknown (at least 0.6% positivity rate).
South Korea: 66,652 tests with 1766 positives 25,568 awaiting results (4.3% positivity rate).
United States: 445 concluded tests, of which 14 positive (3.1% positivity rate).
In the US, drive-thru testing facilities are being deployed around the nation. Gov. Cuomo of NY released initial data from their drive-thru testing. Out of the 600~ that was tested in a single day, ~7% were positive. Tested individuals actively show symptoms and present a doctor's note. This result is similar to public tracking on US nationwide positivity rate.
University of Oxford's Our World in Data attempts to track public reporting on individuals tested vs positive cases of COVID-19. For the US, it estimates 14.25% of those tested are positive.
Last week, the US was significantly behind in testing, near the bottom of all countries worldwide. As of March 20th, a week later, the US is much closer to other G8 and European countries, but there is a long way to go.
Based on the initial results and the results from other countries, the total number of positive COVID-19 cases will increase as testing increases, but the fatality rate will continue to fall and the severity case mix will fall.
In general, the size of the US population infected with COVID-19 will be much smaller than originally estimated as most symptomatic individuals aren't positive. 93% — 99% have other conditions.
Globally, the US has a long way to go to catch up in testing. As testing expands, the total number of cases will increase, but the mild to severe case ratio will decline dramatically.
1% of cases will be severe
Looking at the whole funnel from top to bottom, ~1% of everyone who is tested for COVID-19 with the US will have a severe case [author's emphasis] that will require a hospital visit or long-term admission.
Globally, 80–85% of all cases are mild. These will not require a hospital visit and home-based treatment/ no treatment is effective.
As of mid-March, the US has a significantly lower case severity rate than other countries. Our current severe caseload is similar to South Korea. This data has been spotty in the past; however, lower severity is reflected in the US COVID-19 fatality rates (addressed later).
Early reports from CDC, suggest that 12% of COVID-19 cases need some form of hospitalization, which is lower than the projected severity rate of 20%, with 80% being mild cases.
For context, this year's flu season has led to at least 17 million medical visits and 370,000 hospitalizations (0.1%) out of 30–50 million infections. Recalling that only comparing aggregate total cases isn't helpful, breaking down active cases on a per-capita basis paints a different picture on severity. This is data as of March 20th, 2020.
Declining fatality rate
As the US continues to expand testing, the case fatality rate will decline over the next few weeks. There is little doubt that serious and fatal cases of COVID-19 are being properly recorded. What is unclear is the total size of mild cases. WHO originally estimated a case fatality rate of 4% at the beginning of the outbreak but revised estimates downward 2.3% — 3% for all age groups. CDC estimates 0.5% — 3%, however stresses that closer to 1% is more probable. Dr. Paul Auwaerter estimated 0.5% — 2%, leaning towards the lower end. A paper released on March 19th analyzed a wider data set from China and lowered the fatality rate to 1.4%. This won't be clear for the US until we see the broader population that is positive but with mild cases. With little doubt, the fatality rate and severity rate will decline as more people are tested and more mild cases are counted.
Higher fatality rates in China, Iran, and Italy are more likely associated with a sudden shock to the healthcare system unable to address demands and doesn't accurately reflect viral fatality rates. As COVID-19 spread throughout China, the fatality rate drastically fell outside of Hubei. This was attributed to the outbreak slowing spreading to several provinces with low infection rates.
John P.A. Ioannidis is professor of medicine, of epidemiology and population health, of biomedical data science, and of statistics at Stanford University and co-director of Stanford's Meta-Research Innovation Center recently wrote about fatality rates and how our current instrumentation is leading to faulty policy solutions:
"The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.
Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%. But since this estimate is based on extremely thin data — there were just seven deaths among the 700 infected passengers and crew — the real death rate could stretch from five times lower (0.025%) to five times higher (0.625%). It is also possible that some of the passengers who were infected might die later, and that tourists may have different frequencies of chronic diseases — a risk factor for worse outcomes with SARS-CoV-2 infection — than the general population. Adding these extra sources of uncertainty..."
"Reasonable estimates for the case fatality ratio in the general U.S. population vary from 0.05% to 1%."
Looking at the US fatality, the fatality rate is drastically declining as the number of cases increases, halving every four or five days. The fatality rate will eventually level off and plateau as the US case-mix becomes apparent.
4.06% March 8 (22 deaths of 541 cases)
3.69% March 9 (26 of 704)
3.01% March 10 (30 of 994)
2.95% March 11 (38 of 1,295)
2.52% March 12 (42 of 1,695)
2.27% March 13 (49 of 2,247)
1.93% March 14 (57 of 2,954)
1.84% March 15 (68 of 3,680)
1.90% March 16 (86 of 4,503)
1.76% March 17 (109 of 6,196)
1.66% March 18 (150 of 9,003)
1.51% March 19th (208 of 13,789)
1.32% March 20th (256 of 19,383)
Source: Worldometers.info
Mapped against other countries, our fatality rate and case-mix are following a similar pattern to South Korea which is a good sign, a supposed model of how to manage COVID-19.
Here are deaths weighted by the total number of cases as of March 20th, 2020. Ranked by the total number of cases, our death rate is closer to South Korea's than Spain's or Italy's.
The initial higher fatality rate for the US is trending much lower than originally estimated.
A study of about half deaths within the US (154 of 264), almost all fit a similar demographic profile as the other global ~11,000 fatalities.
Another analysis by Nature, comparing the fatality rate (since revised down) and infectious rate of COVID-19 to other illnesses. COVID-19 is now within range of its other sisters of less potent coronaviruses.
As the global health community continues to gather and report data, the claim that "COVID-19 isn't just like the flu" (though still severe) is looking less credible as fatality rates continue to decline and measuring of mild cases increases.
It is important to consider case-mix when looking at fatality rates. The fatality rate is significantly higher for patients with an underlying condition.
The fatality rates by underling condition mimics the rise in the average fatality rate with those with underlying conditions who get the seasonal flu.
Pneumonia and influenza: 1.53% — 1.93%
Chronic lower respiratory disease: 1.48% — 1.93%
All respiratory causes: 3.04% — 4.14%
Heart disease: 3.21% — 4.4%
Cancer: 0.68% — 1.05%
Diabetes: 0.26% — 0.39%
For all underlying conditions: 10.17% — 13.67%.
Comparing case-mix across countries with a wide range of fatality (China and Italy) and those with low fatality rates (S. Korea) reveals a stark difference in age; therefore, underlying conditions also vary significantly across countries. These two factors contribute the most to a country's fatality rate.
Source: Goldman Sachs
Divided by most at risk and low risk, Italy had significantly more cases of high at-risk patients than Germany or Korea
Source: https://medium.com/@andreasbackhausab/coronavirus-why-its-so-deadly-in-italy-c4200a15a7bf
Based on an initial CDC study of 2,449 COVID-19 cases (almost half of current US cases have missing demographic data), the United States case-mix looks more like S. Korea and Germany rather than China or Italy. Approximately 69% of COVID-19 cases are in the lower at-risk population of under 65, while 31% are older than 65 higher risk population.
This suggests the US will experience a declining fatality rate; however, the US has over 100 million adults with underlying and chronic illnesses that will negatively impact our fatality rate.
An older population skew within the infected population explains most of the disparity in fatality rates between high and low countries. According to a study of the fatalities of COVID-19 cases in Italy, 99% of all deaths had an underlying pathology. Only 0.8% had no underlying condition.
Most of those infected in Italy were over the age of 60, but the median age of a fatality was 80. All of Italy's fatality under the age of 40 were males with serious pre-existing medical conditions.
This doesn't factor in a wide variance in healthcare capacity, such as hospital beds per 1,000 citizens which could affect health outcomes; however, this doesn't seem to be highly correlated with fatality rates at this moment.
S. Korea — 11.5
Germany — 8.3
China — 4.2
Italy — 3.4
United States — 2.9
Singapore — 2.4
So what should we do?
The first rule of medicine is to do no harm.
Local governments and politicians are inflicting massive harm and disruption with little evidence to support their draconian edicts. Every local government is in a mimetic race to one-up each other in authoritarian city ordinances to show us who has more "abundance of caution". Politicians are competing, not on more evidence or more COVID-19 cures but more caution. As unemployment rises and families feel unbearably burdened already, they feel pressure to "fix" the situation they created with even more radical and "creative" policy solutions. This only creates more problems and an even larger snowball effect. The first place to start is to stop killing the patient and focus on what works.
Start with basic hygiene
The most effective means to reduce spread is basic hygiene. Most American's don't wash their hands enough and aren't aware of how to actually wash your hands. Masks aren't particularly effective if you touch your eyes with infected hands. Ask businesses and public places to freely distribute disinfectant wipes and hand sanitizer to the customers and patrons. If you get sick or feel sick, stay home. These are basic rules for preventing illness that doesn't require trillions of dollars.
More data
The best examples of defeating COVID-19 requires lots of data. We are very behind in measuring our population and the impact of the virus but this has turned a corner the last few days. The swift change in direction should be applauded. Private companies are quickly developing and deploying tests, much faster than CDC could ever imagine. The inclusion of private businesses in developing solutions is creative and admirable. Data will calm nerves and allow us to utilize more evidence in our strategy. Once we have proper measurement implemented (the ability to test hundreds every day in a given metro), let's add even more data into that funnel — reopen public life.
Open schools
Closing schools is counterproductive. The economic cost for closing schools in the U.S. for four weeks could cost between $10 and $47 billion dollars (0.1–0.3% of GDP) and lead to a reduction of 6% to 19% in key health care personnel.
CDC's guidance on closing schools specifically for COVID-19 –
Available modeling data indicate that early, short to medium closures do not impact the epi curve of COVID-19 or available health care measures (e.g., hospitalizations). There may be some impact of much longer closures (8 weeks, 20 weeks) further into community spread, but that modeling also shows that other mitigation efforts (e.g., handwashing, home isolation) have more impact on both spread of disease and health care measures. In other countries, those places who closed school (e.g., Hong Kong) have not had more success in reducing spread than those that did not (e.g., Singapore).
Based on transmission evidence children are more likely to catch COVID-19 in the home than at school. As well, they are more likely to expose older vulnerable adults as multi-generational homes are more common. As well, the school provides a single point of testing a large population for a possible infection in the home to prevent community spread.
Open up public spaces
With such little evidence of prolific community spread and our guiding healthcare institutions reporting the same results, shuttering the local economy is a distraction and arbitrary with limited accretive gain outside of greatly annoying millions and bankrupting hundreds of businesses. The data is overwhelming at this point that community-based spread and airborne transmission is not a threat. We don't have significant examples of spreading through restaurants or gyms. When you consider the environment COVID-19 prefers, isolating every family in their home is a perfect situation for infection and transmission among other family members. Evidence from South Korea and Singapore shows that it is completely possible and preferred to continue on with life while making accommodations that are data-driven, such as social distancing and regular temperature checks.
Support business and productivity
The data shows that the overwhelming majority of the working population will not be personally impacted, both individually or their children. This is an unnecessary burden that is distracting resources and energy away from those who need it the most. By preventing Americans from being productive and specializing at what they do best (their vocation), we are pulling resources towards unproductive tasks and damaging the economy. We will need money for this fight.
At this rate, we will spend more money on "shelter-in-place" than if we completely rebuilt our acute care and emergency capacity.
Source: https://www.macrobond.com/posts/blog-central-banks-go-big-covi-19-market-crash-crisis/
Americans won't have the freedom to go help those who get sick, volunteer their time at a hospital, or give generously to a charity. Instead, big government came barrelling in like a bull in a china shop claiming they could solve COVID-19. The same government that continued to not test incoming passengers from Europe and who couldn't manufacture enough test kits with two months' notice.
Let Americans be free to be a part of the solution, calling us to a higher civic duty to help those most in need and protect the vulnerable. Not sitting in isolation like losers.
People fear what the government will do, not an infection
Rampant hoarding and a volatile stock market aren't being driven by COVID-19. An overwhelming majority of American's don't believe they will be infected. Rather hoarding behavior strongly demonstrates an irrational hysteria, from purchasing infective household masks to buying toilet paper in the troves. This fear is being driven by government action, fearing what the government will do next. In South Korea, most citizens didn't fear infection but the government and public shaming. By presenting a consistent and clear plan that is targeted and specific to those who need the most help will reduce the volatility and hysteria. A sign the logic behind these government actions aren't widely accepted, nor believed as rational by the American people is the existence itself of the volatility and hysteria. Over three-fourths of Americans are scared not of COVID-19 but what it is doing to our society.
In CDC's worst-case scenario, CDC expects more than 150–200 million infections within the US. This estimate is hundreds of times bigger than China's infection rate (30% of our population compared to 0.006% in China). Does that really sound plausible to you? China has a sub-par healthcare system, attempted to suppress the news about COVID-19 early on, a lack of transparency, an authoritarian government, and millions of Chinese traveling for the Lunar Festival at the height of the outbreak. In the US, we have a significant lead time, several therapies proving successful, transparency, a top tier healthcare system, a democratic government, and media providing ample accountability.
Infection isn't our primary risk at this point.
Expand medical capacity
COVID-19 is a significant medical threat that needs to be tackled, both finding a cure and limiting spread; however, some would argue that a country's authoritarian response to COVID-19 helped stop the spread. Probably not. In South Korea and Taiwan, I can go to the gym and eat at a restaurant which is more than I can say about San Francisco and New York, despite a significantly lower caseload on a per-capita basis.
None of the countries the global health authorities admire for their approach issued "shelter-in-place" orders, rather they used data, measurement,and promoted common sense self-hygiene.
Does stopping air travel have a greater impact than closing all restaurants? Does closing schools reduce the infection rate by 10%? Not one policymaker has offered evidence of any of these approaches. Typically, the argument given is "out of an abundance of caution". I didn't know there was such a law. Let's be frank, these acts are emotionally driven by fear, not evidence-based thinking in the process of destroying people's lives overnight. While all of these decisions are made by elites isolated in their castles of power and ego, the shock is utterly devastating Main Street.
A friend who runs a guy will run out of cash in a few weeks. A friend who is a pastor let go of half of his staff as donations fell by 60%. A waitress at my favorite breakfast place told me her family will have no income in a few days as they force the closure of restaurants. While political elites twiddle their thumbs with models and projections based on faulty assumptions, people's lives are being destroyed with Marxian vigor. The best compromise elites can come up with is $2,000.
Does it make more sense for us to pay a tax to expand medical capacity quickly or pay the cost to our whole nation of a recession? Take the example of closing schools which will easily cost our economy $50 billion. For that single unanimous totalitarian act, we could have built 50 hospitals with 500+ beds per hospital.
Eliminate arcane certificate of need and expand acute medical capacity to support possible higher healthcare utilization this season.
Don't let them forget it and vote
These days are precarious as Governors float the idea of martial law for not following "social distancing", as well as they liked while they violate those same rules on national TV. Remember this tone is for a virus that has impacted 0.004% of our population. Imagine if this was a truly existential threat to our Republic.
The COVID-19 hysteria is pushing aside our protections as individual citizens and permanently harming our free, tolerant, open civil society. Data is data. Facts are facts. We should be focused on resolving COVID-19 with continued testing, measuring, and be vigilant about protecting those with underlying conditions and the elderly from exposure. We are blessed in one way, there is an election in November. Never forget what happened and vote.
You may ask yourself. Who is this guy? Who is this author? I'm a nobody. That is also the point. The average American feels utterly powerless right now. I'm an individual American who sees his community and loved ones being decimated without given a choice, without empathy, and while the media cheers on with high ratings.
When this is all over, look for massive confirmation bias and pyrrhic celebration by elites. There will be vain cheering in the halls of power as Main Street sits in pieces. Expect no apology, that would be political suicide. Rather, expect to be given a Jedi mind trick of "I'm the government and I helped."
The health of the State will be even stronger with more Americans dependent on welfare, another trillion stimulus filled with pork for powerful friends, and a bailout for companies that charged us $200 change fees for nearly a decade. Washington DC will be fine. New York will still have all of the money in the world. Our communities will be left with nothing but a shadow of the longest bull market in the history of our country.
Requiesce in pace, Don Giuseppe.
(https://scontent.flis9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/90235470_3329653607063643_8349814858950115328_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=XATFKP4RrckAX-4vDR7&_nc_ht=scontent.flis9-1.fna&oh=781e9e0252786432956b43e22630e639&oe=5E9D1579)
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 22, 2020, 06:57:30 PM
Reports from doctor on the frontlines:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/holy-shit-not-flu-medical-worker-describes-terrifying-lung-failure-covid-19-even-young
(chopping it up to get to key parts)
QuoteSince last week, he's been running ventilators for the sickest COVID-19 patients. Many are relatively young, in their 40s and 50s, and have minimal, if any, preexisting conditions in their charts. He is overwhelmed, stunned by the manifestation of the infection, both its speed and intensity. The ICU where he works has essentially become a coronavirus unit. He estimates that his hospital has admitted dozens of confirmed or presumptive coronavirus patients. About a third have ended up on ventilators.
"Reading about it in the news, I knew it was going to be bad, but we deal with the flu every year so I was thinking: Well, it's probably not that much worse than the flu. But seeing patients with COVID-19 completely changed my perspective, and it's a lot more frightening."
"I have patients in their early 40s and, yeah, I was kind of shocked. I'm seeing people who look relatively healthy with a minimal health history, and they are completely wiped out, like they've been hit by a truck. This is knocking out what should be perfectly fit, healthy people. Patients will be on minimal support, on a little bit of oxygen, and then all of a sudden, they go into complete respiratory arrest, shut down and can't breathe at all."
"Normally, ARDS is something that happens over time as the lungs get more and more inflamed. But with this virus, it seems like it happens overnight.
With our coronavirus patients, once they're on ventilators, most need about the highest settings that we can do. About 90% oxygen, and 16 of PEEP, positive end-expiratory pressure, which keeps the lung inflated. This is nearly as high as I've ever seen. The level we're at means we are running out of options.
"In my experience, this severity of ARDS is usually more typical of someone who has a near drowning experience — they have a bunch of dirty water in their lungs — or people who inhale caustic gas. Especially for it to have such an acute onset like that. I've never seen a microorganism or an infectious process cause such acute damage to the lungs so rapidly. That was what really shocked me."
"It first struck me how different it was when I saw my first coronavirus patient go bad. I was like, Holy shit, this is not the flu. Watching this relatively young guy, gasping for air, pink frothy secretions coming out of his tube and out of his mouth. The ventilator should have been doing the work of breathing but he was still gasping for air, moving his mouth, moving his body, struggling. We had to restrain him. With all the coronavirus patients, we've had to restrain them. They really hyperventilate, really struggle to breathe. When you're in that mindstate of struggling to breathe and delirious with fever, you don't know when someone is trying to help you, so you'll try to rip the breathing tube out because you feel it is choking you, but you are drowning.
This is the article that finally made me realize that this is for real and I am now doing social distancing.
Italy: 64,000, 6,077 deaths. That is an improvement. We've had a few data points now showing this.
USA: 43,500, 545 deaths. On track for my target of 1,200 by Sunday. Still exponential, and probably will be for another 2 weeks. (death lag of about 10 days).
All UK masses are suspended and an announcement for Ireland due shortly.
I haven't been to mass in 2 weeks and really want to go this Sunday, please God me and mine get one mass in before a complete lockdown which is imminent.
:pray1:
Me too. That article convinced me of the danger but I am already feeling sick. I hope and pray this is not it. However knowing that I live right in the middle of the epicenter makes me very anxious.
Quote from: King Wenceslas on March 23, 2020, 05:51:52 PMThis is the article that finally made me realize that this is for real and I am now doing social distancing.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 23, 2020, 10:29:00 PM
Me too. That article convinced me of the danger but I am already feeling sick. I hope and pray this is not it. However knowing that I live right in the middle of the epicenter makes me very anxious.
Better late than never.
Now it's time to act responsibly. Take care of yourselves and your families and stay close to God.
Christula, any update on how you're doing?
Martin, don't fret too much, I would suspect you have been prepping your immune system up to now so you are in a much better position than most of the population.
I am convinced me and my siblings had it at Christmas and we survived. My brother used to make me a concoction of garlic, honey and ginger with lemon in water, I would knock back about 200mls of this daily and I honestly would get a slight relief or just enough energy to get through the day.
:pray3:
With medical professionals, supplies, and equipment in short supply during the coronavirus pandemic, understanding how viral antibodies and immunity works (and the possibility of reinfection) is a key concept. Dr. Seheult reviews an encouraging pre-print (non-peer-reviewed) study that showed that COVID-19 re-infection was not observed in a primate called macaques.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4P91VrfPGw[/yt]
Quote from: diaduit on March 23, 2020, 10:52:53 PM
Christula, any update on how you're doing?
Martin, don't fret too much, I would suspect you have been prepping your immune system up to now so you are in a much better position than most of the population.
I am convinced me and my siblings had it at Christmas and we survived. My brother used to make me a concoction of garlic, honey and ginger with lemon in water, I would knock back about 200mls of this daily and I honestly would get a slight relief or just enough energy to get through the day.
:pray3:
I would have said that I had it back in January too when I was hospitalized, but they did the test up the nose and it came back influenza a.
That sounds similar to a concoction that I try to take every morning; two table spoons of apple cider vinegar, a dollop of honey, two squirts from a lemon ball, 1/4 teaspoon of both ginger and turmeric plus a little bit of cayenne pepper in warm water.
James was saying that he was not feeling well too. How are you doing James?
"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA4LI0Ok988[/yt]
Quote from: clau clau on March 24, 2020, 05:45:09 AM
"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA4LI0Ok988[/yt]
Bravo to that guy, but we get the leaders we deserve. People would rather sleep in, train for their marathons, catch the game, work on the house on Sunday, abort, contracept, fornicate, be fraudulent in commerce. HA! Pimps. We all knew by instinct it was wrong with a high cost and that a final bill was in the offing. Well, now, our bill is due. You didn't want to go to Church? You scoffed at a the idea of a God or others' ideas of God and their piety? Pity you, poor fool. You reap what barren soil you sowed*.
*I am as guilty as anyone for this. Sorry.
Quote from: mikemac on March 23, 2020, 11:17:06 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 23, 2020, 10:52:53 PM
Christula, any update on how you're doing?
Martin, don't fret too much, I would suspect you have been prepping your immune system up to now so you are in a much better position than most of the population.
I am convinced me and my siblings had it at Christmas and we survived. My brother used to make me a concoction of garlic, honey and ginger with lemon in water, I would knock back about 200mls of this daily and I honestly would get a slight relief or just enough energy to get through the day.
:pray3:
I would have said that I had it back in January too when I was hospitalized, but they did the test up the nose and it came back influenza a.
That sounds similar to a concoction that I try to take every morning; two table spoons of apple cider vinegar, a dollop of honey, two squirts from a lemon ball, 1/4 teaspoon of both ginger and turmeric plus a little bit of cayenne pepper in warm water.
James was saying that he was not feeling well too. How are you doing James?
Were you short of breath, this is the best indicator of the corona virus?
Well, the good news is over 100,000 patients have recovered by now. Hydroxychloroquine has been found to have at least limited efficacy.
(CNN)As the world's heath experts race to find treatments -- and eventually, a cure -- for the novel coronavirus, two drugs have jumped to the front of the conversation: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine.
President Donald Trump has called the drugs, which are used to treat malaria and other conditions, game changers, and a rush to procure the pharmaceuticals spurred several US states to take measures to prevent shortages amid the Covid-19 pandemic ...
The reason Trump lauds the drugs is because they've been shown, in labs, to be effective against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronaviruses -- including the SARS strain that causes Covid-19 -- as well as other coronaviruses, the CDC said.
Hydroxychloroquine is being studied to determine if it can prevent the onset of Covid-19 before or after a patient is infected with the SARS coronavirus strain that causes it, and if it can be used to treat Covid-19 sufferers, the CDC said.
Because the drug has been in use for years, Trump said, it potentially poses fewer risks than a newly developed drug.
"The nice part is," he said last week, "it's been around for a long time, so we know that if things don't go as planned, it's not going to kill anybody."
The CDC cited a study, documented in the journal Bioscience Trends this month, that chloroquine phosphate has demonstrated "apparent efficacy and acceptable safety against COVID-19-associated pneumonia" in trials in China.
It is thus considered a recommended antiviral for Covid-19 treatment in China, and several countries are recommending both drugs for hospitalized Covid-19 patients, the CDC said.
Chloroquine also appears to have "broad-spectrum antiviral properties" and effects on immune response, Bayer said in its statement announcing the drug donations.
"New data from initial preclinical and evolving clinical research conducted in China, while limited, shows potential for the use of Resochin in treating patients with COVID-19 infection," the statement said."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html
If these medicines at least reduce contagion or boost the person's immune system and weaken the virus' virulence, that would be a great start. They're not yet the final solution, but they could facilitate a return at least to relative normalcy fairly quickly. At least quicker than expected. Let's keep praying for a full cure to be found.
Lots of Plenary Indulgences have been declared by the Church that can be gained in this time, for all who pray e.g. Rosary or Divine Mercy Chaplet or Way of the Cross or Adoration or Scripture Reading for 30 mins, for the quick end of the coronavirus pandemic.
QuoteJames was saying that he was not feeling well too. How are you doing James?
I'm good. Spent a lot of time in bed this weekend and took Monday off. Feel pretty good now. I cough every once in awhile, but not bad. Temperature was normal this morning. Big improvement from Friday. Don't know if it was the flu or my Covid's acting up. All in all, pretty mild. Getting my rest and taking my vitamin stack probably helped a lot.
Quote from: Xavier on March 24, 2020, 07:45:17 AM
Well, the good news is over 100,000 patients have recovered by now. Hydroxychloroquine has been found to have at least limited efficacy.
(CNN)As the world's heath experts race to find treatments -- and eventually, a cure -- for the novel coronavirus, two drugs have jumped to the front of the conversation: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine.
President Donald Trump has called the drugs, which are used to treat malaria and other conditions, game changers, and a rush to procure the pharmaceuticals spurred several US states to take measures to prevent shortages amid the Covid-19 pandemic ...
The reason Trump lauds the drugs is because they've been shown, in labs, to be effective against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronaviruses -- including the SARS strain that causes Covid-19 -- as well as other coronaviruses, the CDC said.
Hydroxychloroquine is being studied to determine if it can prevent the onset of Covid-19 before or after a patient is infected with the SARS coronavirus strain that causes it, and if it can be used to treat Covid-19 sufferers, the CDC said.
Because the drug has been in use for years, Trump said, it potentially poses fewer risks than a newly developed drug.
"The nice part is," he said last week, "it's been around for a long time, so we know that if things don't go as planned, it's not going to kill anybody."
The CDC cited a study, documented in the journal Bioscience Trends this month, that chloroquine phosphate has demonstrated "apparent efficacy and acceptable safety against COVID-19-associated pneumonia" in trials in China.
It is thus considered a recommended antiviral for Covid-19 treatment in China, and several countries are recommending both drugs for hospitalized Covid-19 patients, the CDC said.
Chloroquine also appears to have "broad-spectrum antiviral properties" and effects on immune response, Bayer said in its statement announcing the drug donations.
"New data from initial preclinical and evolving clinical research conducted in China, while limited, shows potential for the use of Resochin in treating patients with COVID-19 infection," the statement said."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html
If these medicines at least reduce contagion or boost the person's immune system and weaken the virus' virulence, that would be a great start. They're not yet the final solution, but they could facilitate a return at least to relative normalcy fairly quickly. At least quicker than expected. Let's keep praying for a full cure to be found.
Lots of Plenary Indulgences have been declared by the Church that can be gained in this time, for all who pray e.g. Rosary or Divine Mercy Chaplet or Way of the Cross or Adoration or Scripture Reading for 30 mins, for the quick end of the coronavirus pandemic.
Oh what ever would Bill and Melinda say about that ........I'd sell my left kidney to see their faces.
Another potential Anti-Viral, Diaduit, is the Calendula Plant. According to this research study, it was found effective against 2003 SARS.
PDF Page 6 on Calendula: "Antiviral activity against SARS coronavirus" https://insa.nic.in/writereaddata/UpLoadedFiles/PINSA/2017_Art48.pdf
Lancet Article from February on similarities and differences with SARS: "The severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) outbreak in 2003 resulted in more than 8000 cases and 800 deaths. SARS was eventually contained by means of syndromic surveillance, prompt isolation of patients, strict enforcement of quarantine of all contacts, and in some areas top-down enforcement of community quarantine. By interrupting all human-to-human transmission, SARS was effectively eradicated. By contrast, by Feb 28, 2020, within a matter of 2 months since the beginning of the outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), more than 82?000 confirmed cases of COVID-19 have been reported with more than 2800 deaths. Although there are striking similarities between SARS and COVID-19, the differences in the virus characteristics will ultimately determine whether the same measures for SARS will also be successful for COVID-19. COVID-19 differs from SARS in terms of infectious period, transmissibility, clinical severity, and extent of community spread. Even if traditional public health measures are not able to fully contain the outbreak of COVID-19, they will still be effective in reducing peak incidence and global deaths. Exportations to other countries need not result in rapid large-scale outbreaks, if countries have the political will to rapidly implement countermeasures.
In November, 2002, the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) emerged in China causing global anxiety as the outbreak rapidly spread, and by July, 2003, had resulted in over 8000 cases in 26 countries. In December, 2019, a novel coronavirus, named SARS-CoV-2, emerged in Wuhan, China, and led to a rapidly spreading outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). By Jan 30, 2020, COVID-19 was declared a public health emergency of international concern. The similarities between SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 are striking, not only in name. The whole genome of SARS-CoV-2 has a 86% similarity with SARS-CoV.1 Both viruses share high degrees of homology to SARS-like coronaviruses isolated in bats, suggesting that bats are the probable origin of both SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2. Live animal markets selling multiple species of wild and domestic animals in proximity to large populations of densely housed humans are thought to be the source of both outbreaks. Even in terms of disease dynamics there are apparent similarities. The main transmission route is thought to be respiratory droplets, although viral shedding via faeces has also been reported for both viruses. The angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), found in the lower respiratory tract of humans, has been identified as the receptor used for cell entry for both SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2.2, 3 COVID-19 and SARS have a median incubation time of about 5 days. The mean serial interval of COVID-19 is 7·5 days (95% CI 5·3–19·0) and the initial estimate for the basic number (R0) was 2·2 (95% CI 1·4–3·9),4 similar to that reported for SARS (mean serial interval 8·4 days, and basic R0 range 2·2–3·6 for serial intervals of 8–12 days).5 Risk factors for severe disease outcomes are old age and comorbidities. The progression for patients with severe disease follows a similar pattern in both viruses, with progression to acute respiratory distress syndrome approximately 8–20 days after onset of first symptoms, whereby lung abnormalities on chest CT show greatest severity approximately 10 days after initial onset of symptoms.6, 7, 8, 9
However, the similarities end here. The epidemic trajectory looks different. The SARS epidemic in 2003 reported 8098 cases with 774 deaths, and was eventually brought under control by July, 2003, in a matter of 8 months. Although 26 countries reported cases, the vast majority of cases were concentrated in five countries or regions: China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Toronto, Canada. SARS was eventually contained by means of syndromic surveillance, prompt isolation of patients, strict enforcement of quarantine of all contacts, and in some areas community-level quarantine. By interrupting all human-to-human transmission, SARS was effectively eradicated. By contrast, by Feb 28, 2020, within a matter of 2 months since the beginning of the outbreak, more than 82?000 confirmed cases of COVID-19 have been reported with more than 2800 deaths, mostly in China. Outside of China, 46 countries are reporting more than 3600 cases including at least 700 on several cruise ships.
Traditional public health measures were widely used to eradicate SARS. Can COVID-19 be controlled by these same measures? It is crucial to remember what measures were taken, and which lessons could be applicable to COVID-19." https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30129-8/fulltext
The new coronavirus cases have now crossed 400,000 with about 17500 deaths. It's also reached virtually every country in the world.
Looks like the market put in an intermediate low at 2192 (I predicted 2200). Expect this rally to top around 2600. Final target at 1800 for the sell off.
Note now that the Fed has showed up, I'm less confident in my predictions. We make it above 2700, and the bear will be over.
Quote from: diaduit on March 24, 2020, 07:31:49 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 23, 2020, 11:17:06 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 23, 2020, 10:52:53 PM
Christula, any update on how you're doing?
Martin, don't fret too much, I would suspect you have been prepping your immune system up to now so you are in a much better position than most of the population.
I am convinced me and my siblings had it at Christmas and we survived. My brother used to make me a concoction of garlic, honey and ginger with lemon in water, I would knock back about 200mls of this daily and I honestly would get a slight relief or just enough energy to get through the day.
:pray3:
I would have said that I had it back in January too when I was hospitalized, but they did the test up the nose and it came back influenza a.
That sounds similar to a concoction that I try to take every morning; two table spoons of apple cider vinegar, a dollop of honey, two squirts from a lemon ball, 1/4 teaspoon of both ginger and turmeric plus a little bit of cayenne pepper in warm water.
James was saying that he was not feeling well too. How are you doing James?
Were you short of breath, this is the best indicator of the corona virus?
Oh for sure. I was up all night gasping for breath. I phoned my priest for last rights. He was the one that phoned the ambulance. I couldn't breath when I was lying down; so I sat in front of my desk and leaned on it. The paramedic that came with the ambulance said this was the tripod position, it's the best position to open your airways. I sat up for the 11 days I was in the hospital too. I probably could have lied down the last couple of days I was there but I waited until I came home. About the 8th day a nurse came in and said my oxygen levels were very low when I was admitted. She said she was my nurse when I was admitted but I didn't remember her. I didn't remember much from the first couple of days. I have COPD so I try to avoid the flu as much as possible; it makes me short of breath too. I've said for a few years that I will die from complications from the flu; it effects me that bad. I know who I got it from and when I got it; the Tuesday before. It was Friday night that I was up all night gasping for breath; early Saturday morning January 11th the ambulance was called. If this was the flu it was the worst that I've experienced. Apparently I didn't have pneumonia either. But they tested me and it came back as influenza A.
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Exhibit A.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238629
I currently use calendula and yarrow tea, lauricidin, vitamin c and some d, garic, ginger, black seed oil and a couple of other antiviral remedies.
Ann Barnhardt notes that most of the Italian deaths can be characterised as having one or more co-mortalities (https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/03/24/wait-just-a-damn-minute-italian-figures-are-with-not-from-coronacold-19/) with a record total of close to 700 deaths only had twelve who died of COV19 alone.
Interesting update of the situation in Spain:
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_ylhuF7oPs[/yt]
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3076792/italian-professor-repeats-warning-coronavirus-may-have-spread
tl;dr Italian professor thinks Covid19 was in Italy back in November as there were many mysterious pneumonias back then. For awhile I've been suspicious that this was global long ago as well as I have friends in Florida who had serious pneumonia back in November / December but repeatedly tested negative for the flu. Also there were several fellow Catholics here on SD that had very severe respiratory illnesses in December.
Not sure what is going on but if true it would suggest a far slower spread to reach a critical stage (like is going on in Italy now) than thought.
Research by the British Medical Journal and others has suggested that a century-old vaccine against tuberculosis (BCG) may also provide some protection against other infections. A variety of trials around the world are investigating if this TB vaccine may help prevent COVID-19. Dr. Seheult illustrates how our innate immunity differs from acquired immunity and how these systems work in tandem to fight infection. Recent coronavirus developments in New York and monitoring tools are also discussed.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqKwAIIy-Mo[/yt]
USA: 54,800, Deaths: 775
Italy: 69,200, Deaths: 6,820
Quote from: james03 on March 24, 2020, 08:13:19 PM
USA: 54,800, Deaths: 775
[
About 60 percent of the new cases in the country were in the New York City metropolitan area, and the infection rate was eight to 10 times greater than other parts of the country, officials said at a briefing with the White House Coronavirus Task Force.]
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/nyregion/coronavirus-new-york-apex-andrew-cuomo.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
If anyone looks at the NYT maps being made available and updated daily, it's obvious that the incidents are not evenly distributed. This is part of the media hype about it. That is, they are correct to announce that all age groups are affected, and that half are <age 50, but this neglects to mention the further distributions within these spans, the locations of the breakouts in clusters (I could post more about the clusters phenomenon), and many other factors. When officials talk about "spikes" and "doubling," and when they issue dire warnings, those predictions assume a lot. They cannot be generalized to the country unless the whole USA behaves in a cavalier fashion (non-distancing, a sudden mania for domestic and international travel, carelessly poor personal hygiene and self-monitoring, needlessly exposing oneself to infected people, etc.)
Also, when more people show up in hospitals, some medical workers will catch the contagion, and so those "new cases" will be folded in with the urgently ill patients who have tested positive, making it seem as if the virus is much more randomly appearing than it is.
These new reports also do not account for the incremental availability, daily, of more testing -- the tests themselves and the personnel to administer them, as well as the greater number of testing sites by the day. More tests,
more confirmed cases.
One thing I value about the detailed maps and updated statistics the NYT is publishing daily is that you can actually pinpoint your own county of residence and see both cases and deaths.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html#g-cases-by-county
In my populous urban county, the death rate is less than 1% (.7), whereas in NYC it is almost 1.3%.
Quote from: james03 on March 24, 2020, 08:13:19 PM
USA: 54,800, Deaths: 775
Italy: 69,200, Deaths: 6,820
James the number of dead in Italy in much much lower than reported in USA
https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/03/24/wait-just-a-damn-minute-italian-figures-are-with-not-from-coronacold-19/
QuoteWait Just a Damn Minute: Italian Mortality Figures are WITH, not FROM CoronaCold-19
Cooking the books to keep people terrified, and for the economic takedown to continue apace? One can't help but think...
Here's a quick lesson in Italian grammar. The preposition "with" is "con" – exactly like in Spanish. The preposition "PER" in Italian is a workhorse that means, depending on context, "for, from, by, through". Now, take a look at this screen cap of an Italian newspaper story from March 20th that was scrubbed almost immediately. Here is the link to the story now, edited.
"627 nuovi deceduti con coronavirus, non per coronavirus."
627 new deaths with coronavirus, not from coronavirus.
THAT'S one hell of a precision. Why was it edited out almost immediately? Oh, I think we ALL know why.
Numbers are being cooked so that anyone who dies is tested, and if coronavirus is present, the person is counted as a CORONAVIRUS DEATH, even if they died from cancer, or a head injury, or... seasonal H1N1 flu. Remember, in the U.S., in an average flu season year, 150 people die EVERY DAY from seasonal flu. But that's different. That's a different sort of dead – the sort that doesn't matter.
Here is an Italian pundit pointing this up – of the 627 that died that day, the Italian I.S.S. (Instituto Superiore di Sanità) freely admitted that only TWELVE – 12 – a dozen – died FROM coronavirus. The other 615 all died from something else.
"The media are reporting that today 627 people died from coronavirus. The I.S.S. has explained that only 12 people had no other pathologies. To attribute all the deaths to the virus is not only false and unscientific. It's more than that. It is psychological terrorism."
Here is the link to the LaStampa article that Sacchetti is tweeting.
Again, these are the I.S.S.'s own numbers, freely admitted. Almost HALF of the deceased have THREE co-morbidities. 25% have two co-morbidities, the other quarter have one co-morbidity. That leaves a TINY sliver of people who die of CoronaCold-19 with no other pre-existing morbidity. JUST EXACTLY LIKE EVERY OTHER KIND OF FLU AND COLD.
Folks, here's the deal. A human body that is very weak or dying, for whatever reason, is a de facto Petri dish. Every bug and virus can get a toe-hold BECAUSE THE PERSON'S IMMUNE SYSTEM IS NOT FUNCTIONING ANYWHERE NEAR NORMAL. It is said of people who die of AIDS, "What did he ultimately die of? The better question is what DIDN'T he die of. Cancer. Flu. Strep. A common cold. Take your pick."
Think of it like throwing a hunk of ground beef out on the counter – guess what you are going to find 72 hours later. The flesh is there as a host vector for anything and everything with no pushback from an immune system response. Now, consider where the vast majority of these people die: IN A HOSPITAL. Hospitals tend to have lots of bugs and pathogens floating around, by definition. That's why hospitals are in a continuous battle in terms of sanitation. Hospitals have that "hospital smell" precisely because hospitals concentrate bugs and therefore diligence requires extraordinary sanitation measures. It's common sense.
Now, look: This "psychological terrorism" as the Italian pundit Cesare Sacchetti called it, is very much happening in the U.S. already. Slip, fall, hit your head. They will swab your body, and if CoronaCold is present in your mucous membranes, you will be called a CoronaCold victim:
This situation is essentially Jonestown, and the Kool-Aid is terror over a chest cold.
I think it is too late to stop the cascade of economic collapse and installation of totalitarianism, HOWEVER, let the record show that a few realized that the Emperor was as naked as a jaybird.
...and just adding to my post above, that a county about 40 miles from me -- their death rate, far outpaces the rate in my own. Theirs is 4.5% in death rate-- more than 6 times the rate in my county. Since I was working in person in that relatively-high-death-rate county, I am working from home now. Were I so foolish as to travel their with a sense of invincibility and/or take no precautionary measures, I could easily become a statistic.
The County in question does a lot of international travel, has a huge Chinese population -- huge.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 24, 2020, 09:02:12 PM
QuoteWait Just a Damn Minute: Italian Mortality Figures are WITH, not FROM CoronaCold-19
Cooking the books to keep people terrified, and for the economic takedown to continue apace? One can't help but think...
.... 627 new deaths with coronavirus, not from coronavirus....
..... Numbers are being cooked so that anyone who dies is tested, and if coronavirus is present, the person is counted as a CORONAVIRUS DEATH, even if they died from cancer, or a head injury, or... seasonal H1N1 flu. Remember, in the U.S., in an average flu season year, 150 people die EVERY DAY from seasonal flu. But that's different. That's a different sort of dead – the sort that doesn't matter.....
.... Now, look: This "psychological terrorism" as the Italian pundit Cesare Sacchetti called it, is very much happening in the U.S. already. Slip, fall, hit your head. They will swab your body, and if CoronaCold is present in your mucous membranes, you will be called a CoronaCold victim....
.... This situation is essentially Jonestown, and the Kool-Aid is terror over a chest cold....
.... I think it is too late to stop the cascade of economic collapse and installation of totalitarianism, HOWEVER, let the record show that a few realized that the Emperor was as naked as a jaybird.
Exactly.
Meanwhile, 1 billion people across the world are in lockdown.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8137963/Nearly-one-BILLION-people-lockdown-globe.html
This has all the hallmarks of a highly organised, well planned propaganda campaign. One of the techniques being employed is called 'Nudging' . We are being 'nudged' towards a desired outcome. Notice how it keeps ramping up, little by little.
1 billion down, 6 billion to go.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 24, 2020, 09:11:26 PM
...and just adding to my post above, that a county about 40 miles from me -- their death rate, far outpaces the rate in my own. Theirs is 4.5% in death rate-- more than 6 times the rate in my county. Since I was working in person in that relatively-high-death-rate county, I am working from home now. Were I so foolish as to travel their with a sense of invincibility and/or take no precautionary measures, I could easily become a statistic.
The County in question does a lot of international travel, has a huge Chinese population -- huge.
Are they dying from the virus or with the virus?
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 25, 2020, 12:57:19 AM
One of the techniques being employed is called 'Nudging' . We are being 'nudged' towards a desired outcome. Notice how it keeps ramping up, little by little.
While I'm not a conspiracy theorist (maybe I should be!), I watch the language in the headlines all the time. Key word: "Surge" in deaths. Do you realize what that means? Anything from
one additional death (instead of zero) in that particular location (usually a county -- see my earlier post) to an additional 20. Sometimes they'll manipulate the numbers until there is indeed a "surge" or a "spike." For example, daily numbers won't be announced for a particular area or city, etc. Instead, they will wait until they can report a significant number (double digit), and report that there's been a "surge," "spike," or "doubling" "since last week."
We are one of the so-called "epicenters" (earthquake terminology, which those who do not live in earthquake country love to use because it terrifies them and everyone in their region). But the vast majority of our counties have either zero deaths or one death.
And no, I do not know if that's "from" or "with."
I'd also like to know if that California teenager was a vaper because vaping injures lungs.
Awkward customer unblocked.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 25, 2020, 01:42:00 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 25, 2020, 12:57:19 AM
One of the techniques being employed is called 'Nudging' . We are being 'nudged' towards a desired outcome. Notice how it keeps ramping up, little by little.
While I'm not a conspiracy theorist (maybe I should be!), I watch the language in the headlines all the time. Key word: "Surge" in deaths. Do you realize what that means? Anything from one additional death (instead of zero) in that particular location (usually a county -- see my earlier post) to an additional 20. Sometimes they'll manipulate the numbers until there is indeed a "surge" or a "spike." For example, daily numbers won't be announced for a particular area or city, etc. Instead, they will wait until they can report a significant number (double digit), and report that there's been a "surge," "spike," or "doubling" "since last week."
We are one of the so-called "epicenters" (earthquake terminology, which those who do not live in earthquake country love to use because it terrifies them and everyone in their region). But the vast majority of our counties have either zero deaths or one death.
And no, I do not know if that's "from" or "with."
I'd also like to know if that California teenager was a vaper because vaping injures lungs.
Yes, the language is a giveaway, as is the almost constant stream of personal testimony from medical professionals on the verge of nervous breakdowns warning of the horrors of the virus, and from patients describing horrible symptoms. Dire predictions from experts, despite the fact that experts always disagree, are reported with urgency.
At first we were told the lockdown would be for two weeks, then six weeks, then three months. Now we're being told it could last a year. And stronger measures could be on their way, if people don't comply with the lockdown. The army is on standby.
We're being nudged towards martial law in readiness for the global economic collapse and the imposition of the NWO.
Watch out for proposals to introduce a 'digital dollar', because cash spreads the virus and those without bank accounts need money.
I live in a virus 'hotspot', by the way.
Quote from: Prayerful on March 24, 2020, 03:50:20 PM
Ann Barnhardt notes that most of the Italian deaths can be characterised as having one or more co-mortalities (https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/03/24/wait-just-a-damn-minute-italian-figures-are-with-not-from-coronacold-19/) with a record total of close to 700 deaths only had twelve who died of COV19 alone.
Yep, Awkward posted this pages ago:
QuoteBut Prof Ricciardi added that Italy's death rate may also appear high because of how doctors record fatalities. The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.
On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three," he says.
And what about the treatment they are getting in hospital? KR raised the point many posts ago that if antivirals are being administered, the contra-indications for many pre-existing conditions could prove disastrous, if not fatal, for some.
Definition of iatrogenic
: induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures
Quote
In their study, the researchers examined four separate studies that analyzed medical death rate data from 2000 to 2008. Then, using hospital admission rates from 2013, they extrapolated that based on a total of 35,416,020 hospitalizations, 251,454 deaths stemmed from a medical error, which the researchers say now translates to 9.5 percent of all deaths each year in the U.S.
https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4923397/
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 25, 2020, 01:42:00 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 25, 2020, 12:57:19 AM
One of the techniques being employed is called 'Nudging' . We are being 'nudged' towards a desired outcome. Notice how it keeps ramping up, little by little.
While I'm not a conspiracy theorist (maybe I should be!), I watch the language in the headlines all the time. Key word: "Surge" in deaths. Do you realize what that means? Anything from one additional death (instead of zero) in that particular location (usually a county -- see my earlier post) to an additional 20. Sometimes they'll manipulate the numbers until there is indeed a "surge" or a "spike." For example, daily numbers won't be announced for a particular area or city, etc. Instead, they will wait until they can report a significant number (double digit), and report that there's been a "surge," "spike," or "doubling" "since last week."
We are one of the so-called "epicenters" (earthquake terminology, which those who do not live in earthquake country love to use because it terrifies them and everyone in their region). But the vast majority of our counties have either zero deaths or one death.
And no, I do not know if that's "from" or "with."
I'd also like to know if that California teenager was a vaper because vaping injures lungs.
It is strange Miriam, where I am from there are 3 hospitals in a triangle area and I'm close to all three (within an hours drive of 2 and 25 mins from one). The one closest to me had no virus up to Friday and the other 2 had multiple cases. There is max 60 miles between each one. I have always been suspicious of the cluster outbreak in Italy, why a cluster?? Why didn't a random cluster happen in France or UK! Why was Italy on par with the rest of Europe until Feb 18th.
You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think that global elites have engineered this from day 1. That they needed to ramp up the fear and fire up an acute area of infection and hold it as a sample to the rest of the world. That cluster was deliberate. There I said it.
And yes, the virus is dangerous. The elites already have abortion and now they can cull the burdensome aging population with a nasty virus and gain billions from the vaccine that will kill our immune systems and possibly have the RFID in it.
I generally do not suffer with reds under the beds syndrome, but this one has made me sit up and watch since Jan 25th.
Incidentally Dad was in hospital since last thurs and I finally got to collect him last night - THANK GOD. They had staff at the door who rang up to my dads ward and an hour later a porter brought him downstairs to my parked car just outside. The funny thing is, it was all relaxed, gowned up and gloved but relaxed at the door. Since the shutdown, facebook has been on fire with hero hysteria for the medical staff (in fairness, not unwarranted) so when I asked yesterday, any cases (and I asked a paramedic whom is very friendly with my husband and calls to our house) he said he didn't know!!. Pull the other one, I think they are embarrassed not to have any cases as local restaurants are piling in food into them and they are almost getting a standing ovation :) so they can't suffer the public to know that its actually quieter than usual in this hospital.
Prayer is Ongoing at Rome. The Pope had asked all to pray the Our Father at 12 Noon Rome Time. https://www.sacredspace.ie/pope-francis-coronavirus-prayer
(https://www.sacredspace.ie/sites/default/files/content-page/images/pope_francis_prayer_for_protection_from_coronavirus.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJHI8bI0LWg
There is something very biblical about all this. Passiontide next Sunday and then Holy Week.
Then Easter Sunday and perhaps the lock-down will end.
Buckle-up boys and girls. It's going to be a wild ride ...
So now the Emperor walked under his high canopy in the midst of the procession, through the streets of his capital; and all the people standing by, and those at the windows, cried out, "Oh! How beautiful are our Emperor's new clothes! What a magnificent train there is to the mantle; and how gracefully the scarf hangs!" in short, no one would allow that he could not see these much-admired clothes; because, in doing so, he would have declared himself either a simpleton or unfit for his office. Certainly, none of the Emperor's various suits, had ever made so great an impression, as these invisible ones.
"But the Emperor has nothing at all on!" said a little child.
"Listen to the voice of innocence!" exclaimed his father; and what the child had said was whispered from one to another.
"But he has nothing at all on!" at last cried out all the people. The Emperor was vexed, for he knew that the people were right; but he thought the procession must go on now! And the lords of the bedchamber took greater pains than ever, to appear holding up a train, although, in reality, there was no train to hold.
The Emperor's new clothes. Hans Christian Anderson.
-- http://www.online-literature.com/hans_christian_andersen/967/
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-half-the-population-already-has-coronavirus-
Britain is now locked down for at least three weeks, but could the government's original policy of relying on herd immunity have been right all along? That is the inference of a team of epidemiologists from Oxford university, whose modelling produces remarkably different results from that of Professor Neil Ferguson and his team at Imperial College. It was the Imperial College model which, on Monday 16 March which led to the dramatic U-turn, and the government's adoption of a complete suppression policy for Covid-19.
Like everything being published about coronavirus at the moment, the Oxford study comes with a health warning.
It has not yet been peer-reviewed and, like all form of modelling, it relies on the quality of the data and assumptions which are fed into it. But if it is anywhere close to reflecting the truth, it raises questions about a policy of seeking to suppress Covid-19, with all the lockdowns and economic damage which comes with it. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 - the virus which causes Covid-19 - may be already so established in the population that it might be pointless trying to contain it.
The good news, on the other hand, is that if the Oxford model is correct, it suggests the disease is a lot less deadly than has been feared. It would also suggest that the epidemic will be in decline much sooner than most currently believe, because there will soon be few people left for the virus to infect. The Oxford model suggests that the virus might have been in circulation in Britain for four weeks before the first death was recorded and that a large proportion, if not the majority, of the UK population might already be infected.
Running the model with slightly different assumptions produced estimates that by last Thursday, between 36 per cent and 68 per cent of the UK population had already been infected with the virus, with the vast majority of the population showing no symptoms whatsoever.
Most popular
Ross Clark
Why is the coronavirus mortality rate so much lower in Germany?
Why is the coronavirus mortality rate so much lower in Germany?Why is the coronavirus mortality rate so much lower in Germany?
An Italian study published yesterday – which analysed the results from a village near Venice where all 3,000 residents were tested for the virus – suggested that between 50 per cent and 75 per cent of those infected show no symptoms.
It has to be emphasised that the Oxford study is theoretical, and it shouldn't be taken as a call to end the lockdown restrictions - at least, not yet. What it does show is the wide gap between scientists on the likely path of the epidemic. Above all, it underlines the importance of finding out how widespread the infection is in the UK population.
All policy hinges on this, yet no-one has any idea of how many people have the virus. As a matter of urgency, we need to test a randomised sample of the population to find this out. The Oxford team says it will begin testing a sample of the population for evidence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2. It should come as no surprise if, as more evidence comes in and we have a better idea of infection rates, we end up a different policy on Covid-19.
https://vimeo.com/69728315
The latest statistical report of the Italian National Health Institute is now available in English with statistics for COVID-19.
https://www.epicentro.iss.it/coronavirus/bollettino/Report-COVID-2019_20_marzo_eng.pdf
Quote
8. Deaths under the age of 50 years
To date (March the 20th), 36 of 3200 (1.1%) COVID-19 positive patients under the age of 50 have died. In particular, 9 of these were younger than 40 years, 8 men and 1 woman (age range between 31 and 39 years). For 2 patients under the age of 40 years, no clinical information is available; the remaining 7 had serious pre-existing pathologies (cardiovascular, renal, psychiatric pathologies, diabetes, obesity)
Video: How Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg Sees the Current Corona Pandemic
https://www.globalresearch.ca/video-how-dr-wolfgang-wodarg-sees-current-corona-pandemic/5707298
Adding to my Reply 1074:
How could I forget "skyrocket," "soar," and "shoot up"?
Xavier you have been posting a lot about natural treatment and what is currently being tested by various countries around the world. I know about calendula and lauricidin already. Could you list all of them in here. You may have a better access in India and greater knowledge than us here in US. I used to go to an Indian doctor and she was superb. I mean this lady knew everything about natural treatment.
...and just in case people think I'm the one doing the exaggerating, I open my local paper and again we have the inflated language: "deaths continue to climb" (that means one death in one county, where there were zero deaths, and four deaths in another county, where there were 2)
So (referring to the above), when you walk upstairs, do you consider your first step, from the landing to the first step, a "climb"? I consider it "a step." If I were an Olympic athlete with very long legs able to execute many steps at once -- say, 8 -- I would consider that a "leap." But these aren't the increases that are represented by the stats.
Other language I've seen: "explode"
Our stupid governor just closed the schools till May 1st. What a <bleep>.
QuoteAn employee of a call center in Seoul, was infected.
Office had 207 people.
March 8th. he tested positive.
EVERY person in that office was tested. today 152 have tested positive, they tested floors above and below his floor. Today 3 more from the 11th floor were found and 1 contact.
So 152 people had the disease and didn't know it. Highly contagious. Very mild.
Beware binary thinking. Yes this disease is real and it is highly contagious. However it is very mild except to certain people. Most likely it is an attenuated virus being developed for a SARS vaccine in China that got out. That is why it is so mild.
#EndThePanic
Quote from: Lynne on March 25, 2020, 01:42:22 PM
Our stupid governor just closed the schools till May 1st. What a <bleep>.
It's a prudent decision.
Quote
A Swiss Doctor on Covid-19
Published: March 14, 2020; Updated: March 25, 2020
A Swiss medical doctor provided the following information on the current situation in order to enable our readers to make a realistic risk assessment. (Daily updates below)
According to the latest data of the Italian National Health Institute ISS, the average age of the positively-tested deceased in Italy is currently about 81 years. 10% of the deceased are over 90 years old. 90% of the deceased are over 70 years old.
80% of the deceased had suffered from two or more chronic diseases. 50% of the deceased had suffered from three or more chronic diseases. The chronic diseases include in particular cardiovascular problems, diabetes, respiratory problems and cancer.
Less than 1% of the deceased were healthy persons, i.e. persons without pre-existing chronic diseases. Only about 30% of the deceased are women.
Quote
The doctor also points out the following aspects:
Northern Italy has one of the oldest populations and the worst air quality in Europe, which has already led to an increased number of respiratory diseases and deaths in the past and is likely an additional risk factor in the current epidemic.
Quote
Furthermore, according to a first Chinese study, the internationally used virus test kits may give a false positive result in some cases. In these cases, the persons may not have contracted the new coronavirus, but presumably one of the many existing human coronaviruses that are part of the annual (and currently ongoing) common cold and flu epidemics.
Thus the most important indicator for judging the danger of the disease is not the frequently reported number of positively-tested persons and deaths, but the number of persons actually and unexpectedly developing or dying from pneumonia (so-called excess mortality).
According to all current data, for the healthy general population of school and working age, a mild to moderate course of the Covid-19 disease can be expected. Senior citizens and persons with existing chronic diseases should be protected. The medical capacities should be optimally prepared.
Quote
Important reference values include the number of annual flu deaths, which is up to 8,000 in Italy and up to 60,000 in the US; normal overall mortality, which in Italy is up to 2,000 deaths per day; and the average number of pneumonia cases per year, which in Italy is over 120,000.
Current all-cause mortality in Europe and in Italy is still normal or even below-average. Any excess mortality due to Covid-19 should become visible in the European monitoring charts.
Quote
Italian immunology professor Sergio Romagnani from the University of Florence comes to the conclusion in a study on 3000 people that 50 to 75% of the test-positive people of all ages remain completely symptom-free – significantly more than previously assumed.
Quote
The occupancy rate of the North Italian ICUs in the winter months is typically already 85 to 90%. Some or many of these existing patients could also be test-positive by now. However, the number of additional unexpected pneumonia cases is not yet known.
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/
USA: 65,600, Deaths: 931
Italy: 74,400, Deaths: 7,503
QuoteImportant reference values include the number of annual flu deaths, which is up to 8,000 in Italy
They'll take that out tomorrow. But again, avoid binary thinking. It's real, it's contagious, and it is lethal to old sick people (which is why 2 hospital ships, MASH units, and convention center conversions are ongoing in NYC), but for most people, including workers and students, it is a mild attenuated virus that 30-40% won't even notice, and the rest will spend a few days in bed with.
QuoteOur stupid governor just closed the schools till May 1st. What a <bleep>.
That's what set off the panic in my State. School Closing + Women + Facebook -> Panic.
If you haven't seen the panic buying yet, by tomorrow your shelves will be cleared out. Not a problem, wait a week and they'll be stocked again.
What's your thoughts on chloroquine as a treatment. Good success rate for the French. Now that Trump as rubber stamped it, the liberal media are saying it's useless.
Not according to some studies though
https://aac.asm.org/content/53/8/3416
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/chloroquine-coronavirus-treatment.html
okies
Chloroquine showed potential effectiveness against SARS (Covid19 is SARS-2). China has been treating with chloroquine since at least January and there are numerous Chinese studies on its effectiveness. In mid-April China is completing numerous double-blind multi-site large sample sized antiviral regiment studies, including the use of chloroquine. I am fairly confident that by May there will be a fairly reliable treatment regiment in use.
I suppose I'm baffled by how every single diocese within the United States has suspended public Masses/liturgies and most of the Sacraments....within what? Two to three days? Never before in our history has every single diocese in the country been closed (unless I'm wrong? But I don't think I am). And yet gullible Americans are allowed to crowd into their local grocery stores by the hundreds like buzzards fighting over a corpse.
It all seems too diabolical to me. Too well orchestrated and timed...too evil. And our cowardly clergy, bishops, cardinals, sodomites in Rome all hide in their glass towers, worshipping mammon thinking they will live through the breakdown. When their glass towers break and shatter, and fall to the ground what will there there be for them? Wailing and weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I keep hearing at how our brave politicians will save us all, they know what they're doing. "Mr. Politician, please tell me where I can go peepee and poopoo...and where I'm allowed to go...and what my curfew is...and when I can go to work...and how long I can be outside for...and what number to call when I need to report my neighbors for breaking their quarantine."
Americans are moronic, especially the ones that think the federal government and corporations will come to save them. Socialism at its finest. A sign of things to come perhaps, at an incredibly alarming rate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JP40LTd13M
Lamentations 1:1
How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.
Quote from: LuxVera on March 25, 2020, 09:52:03 PM
I suppose I'm baffled by how every single diocese within the United States has suspended public Masses/liturgies and most of the Sacraments....within what? Two to three days? Never before in our history has every single diocese in the country been closed (unless I'm wrong? But I don't think I am). And yet gullible Americans are allowed to crowd into their local grocery stores by the hundreds like buzzards fighting over a corpse.
It all seems too diabolical to me. Too well orchestrated and timed...too evil. And our cowardly clergy, bishops, cardinals, sodomites in Rome all hide in their glass towers, worshipping mammon thinking they will live through the breakdown. When their glass towers break and shatter, and fall to the ground what will there there be for them? Wailing and weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It
is diabolical.
Quote from: MartinI used to go to an Indian doctor and she was superb. I mean this lady knew everything about natural treatment.
Hi Martin. Do you take Licorice? "Glycyrrhizin, liquiritigenin, and glabridin are just some of the active substances in licorice that have powerful antiviral properties (34Trusted Source).
Test-tube studies demonstrate that licorice root extract is effective against HIV, RSV, herpes viruses, and severe acute respiratory syndrome-related coronavirus (SARS-CoV), which causes a serious type of pneumonia (35) https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/antiviral-herbs#11.-Licorice Since the novel coronavirus is SARS-COV-2, and has been found to have some HIV strains, Licorice could quite possibly be doubly effective against it. Just an intuition. 14 other herbs with anti-viral properties are mentioned there. I hope you find them useful.
For general immunity, building up Vitamin C is best: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-c-benefits
When I read about natural remedies, Martin, that God has mercifully provided in Nature herself, often Ezekiel 47 and Apocalypse 22 come to mind.
Ezek 47:12 "And by the torrent on the banks thereof on both sides shall grow all trees that bear fruit: their leaf shall not fall off, and their fruit shall not fail: every month shall they bring forth firstfruits, because the waters thereof shall issue out of the sanctuary: and the fruits thereof shall be for food, and the leaves thereof for medicine."
Apoc 22:2 In the midst of the street thereof, and on both sides of the river, was the tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruits every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Davis, since covid 19 is SARS 2, as you mentioned, it seems virtually certain that Chloroquine and Hydroxy-Chloroquine will have the same efficacy against it as it had against the original; and probably if not for WHO politics would have already been marketed as such.
Here's an August 22, 2005 study: "Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) is caused by a newly discovered coronavirus (SARS-CoV) ...
chloroquine has strong antiviral effects on SARS-CoV infection of primate cells. These inhibitory effects are observed when the cells are treated with the drug either before or after exposure to the virus, suggesting both prophylactic and therapeutic advantage. In addition to the well-known functions of chloroquine such as elevations of endosomal pH, the drug appears to interfere with terminal glycosylation of the cellular receptor, angiotensin-converting enzyme 2. This may negatively influence the virus-receptor binding and abrogate the infection, with further ramifications by the elevation of vesicular pH, resulting in the inhibition of infection and spread of SARS CoV ...
Chloroquine is effective in preventing the spread of SARS CoV in cell culture. Favorable inhibition of virus spread was observed when the cells were either treated with chloroquine prior to or after SARS CoV infection. In addition, the indirect immunofluorescence assay described herein represents a simple and rapid method for screening SARS-CoV antiviral compounds ...
Chloroquine can affect virus infection in many ways, and the antiviral effect depends in part on the extent to which the virus utilizes endosomes for entry. Chloroquine has been widely used to treat human diseases, such as malaria, amoebiosis, HIV, and autoimmune diseases, without significant detrimental side effects [15]. Together with data presented here, showing virus inhibition in cell culture by chloroquine doses compatible with patient treatment, these features suggest that further evaluation of chloroquine in animal models of SARS-CoV infection would be warranted as we progress toward finding effective antivirals for prevention or treatment of the disease.
... We have identified chloroquine as an effective antiviral agent for SARS-CoV in cell culture conditions, as evidenced by its inhibitory effect when the drug was added prior to infection or after the initiation and establishment of infection. The fact that chloroquine exerts an antiviral effect during pre- and post-infection conditions suggest that it is likely to have both prophylactic and therapeutic advantages. Recently, Keyaerts et al. [21] reported the antiviral properties of chloroquine and identified that the drug affects SARS-CoV replication in cell culture, as evidenced by quantitative RT-PCR. Taken together with the findings of Keyaerts et al. [21], our analysis provides further evidence that chloroquine is effective against SARS-CoV Frankfurt and Urbani strains. We have provided evidence that chloroquine is effective in preventing SARS-CoV infection in cell culture if the drug is added to the cells 24 h prior to infection. In addition, chloroquine was significantly effective even when the drug was added 3–5 h after infection, suggesting an antiviral effect even after the establishment of infection. Since similar results were obtained by NH4Cl treatment of Vero E6 cells, the underlying mechanism(s) of action of these drugs might be similar." From: https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-2-69
Finally, to something mentioned earlier by James: yeah, 8000 flu deaths in Italy in a whole year. And nearly 8000 coronavirus deaths in Italy in like 20 days. Just the same, right? Anyway, for updates: 475,000 cases. 21000 deaths. Prince Charles infected with novel coronavirus. Pray for him.
Trump said he wants to try to re-open the US economy by Easter, saying it was important for other reasons, so it would be great to do so.
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/25/uk-downgrades-covid-19/
Where is the media roar all over the world—blasting out the news that the UK government no longer considers COVID an existential threat to all life on Earth?
No giant headlines indicating that the dominos are now starting to fall in another direction—away from sheer suicidal insanity?
Oh, that's right, it's the MEDIA.
The UK government, on its website, announced on March 23, under "Status of COVID-19":
Status of COVID-19
As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK.
The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#status-of-covid-19
[yt]https://youtu.be/CC2jjMSMLDo[/yt]
just checking
Strange, I can post this but when I try to post an article with a link it gives me 403 Forbidden Access.
New York hospitals treating coronavirus patients with vitamin C
https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/new-york-hospitals-treating-coronavirus-patients-with-vitamin-c/?fbclid=IwAR3b1tBvz__m-Hi9sXhG2eBENvOObXVCOtlvR0dEuBI0U18GAIxkXAvs00U
That got it. I guess it didn't want me to post the whole article.
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
Finally, to something mentioned earlier by James: yeah, 8000 flu deaths in Italy in a whole year. And nearly 8000 coronavirus deaths in Italy in like 20 days. Just the same, right? Anyway, for updates: 475,000 cases. 21000 deaths.
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
First Nevada, and now New York:
QuoteNo pharmacist shall dispense hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine except when written as prescribed for an FDA-approved indication; or as part of a state approved clinical trial related to COVID-19 for a patient who has tested positive for COVID-19, with such test result documented as part of the prescription. No other experimental or prophylactic use shall be permitted, and any permitted prescription is limited to one fourteen day prescription with no refills.
Are they trying to purposefully destroy the economy? I'm somewhat surprised at this. My working theory is that Joe Biden is a place holder to keep Bernie out, and that he'll withdraw for health reasons right before the convention, where it will be announced .... Cuomo is running. But if it turns out that this drug works, this Cuomo order will be plastered all over Trump ads. Maybe it's not Cuomo. Maybe they are concerned that the drug works and can't let Trump get such a major win after the fascist press jumped on him about it ( (((Streisand))) effect).
Quote from: John Lamb on March 26, 2020, 03:17:33 AM
[yt]https://youtu.be/CC2jjMSMLDo[/yt]
I like this young lady and find it charming that she didn't have a clue who Tom Brady is. An attribute I used to associate with normal women.
The article linked to below contains a list of 12 experts who are questioning the current coronavirus narrative and its consequences.
One of them is Dr John Ioannidis, Professor of Medicine, of Health Research and Policy and of Biomedical Data Science, at Stanford University School of Medicine and a Professor of Statistics at Stanford University School of Humanities and Sciences. He is director of the Stanford Prevention Research Center, and co-director of the Meta-Research Innovation Center at Stanford (METRICS).
He is also the editor-in-chief of the European Journal of Clinical Investigation. He was chairman at the Department of Hygiene and Epidemiology, University of Ioannina School of Medicine as well as adjunct professor at Tufts University School of Medicine.
As a physician, scientist and author he has made contributions to evidence-based medicine, epidemiology, data science and clinical research. In addition, he pioneered the field of meta-research. He has shown that much of the published research does not meet good scientific standards of evidence.
Here's what he has to say.
Quote
Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.
The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.
Could the Covid-19 case fatality rate be that low? No, some say, pointing to the high rate in elderly people. However, even some so-called mild or common-cold-type coronaviruses that have been known for decades can have case fatality rates as high as 8% when they infect elderly people in nursing homes.
If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to "influenza-like illness" would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/12-experts-questioning-coronavirus-panic/5707532
Perhaps the NWO isn't almost upon us after all.
This could simply be a case of the media, governments, the medical establishment and most international bodies being on an adrenalin fuelled dopamine binge which has caused them to create a pandemic in their fevered minds and embark on a mania inspired spending spree. When more and more experts come out and question it all, the inevitable morning after the night before come down will follow and everything will get back to normal, or near normal, since the public will never take a pandemic warning seriously again.
Once the dire predictions fail to materialise and the experts who question the official narrative begin to be heard, the whole coronavirus panic could fade away very quickly.
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:16:04 AMNew York hospitals treating coronavirus patients with vitamin C
#FreeKreuzritter
Quote from: james03 on March 26, 2020, 07:58:10 AM
First Nevada, and now New York:
QuoteNo pharmacist shall dispense hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine except when written as prescribed for an FDA-approved indication; or as part of a state approved clinical trial related to COVID-19 for a patient who has tested positive for COVID-19, with such test result documented as part of the prescription. No other experimental or prophylactic use shall be permitted, and any permitted prescription is limited to one fourteen day prescription with no refills.
Are they trying to purposefully destroy the economy? I'm somewhat surprised at this. My working theory is that Joe Biden is a place holder to keep Bernie out, and that he'll withdraw for health reasons right before the convention, where it will be announced .... Cuomo is running. But if it turns out that this drug works, this Cuomo order will be plastered all over Trump ads. Maybe it's not Cuomo. Maybe they are concerned that the drug works and can't let Trump get such a major win after the fascist press jumped on him about it ( (((Streisand))) effect).
This crossed my.mind, Trump would have God like status if the critically ill started to recover, with a cheap drug and he switches back on the economy long before the other countries.
Also pharmaceutical companies were salivating thinking about future profits on toxic vaccines and Trump just kicked tht to touch.
Quote from: diaduit on March 26, 2020, 10:24:34 AM
Quote from: james03 on March 26, 2020, 07:58:10 AM
First Nevada, and now New York:
QuoteNo pharmacist shall dispense hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine except when written as prescribed for an FDA-approved indication; or as part of a state approved clinical trial related to COVID-19 for a patient who has tested positive for COVID-19, with such test result documented as part of the prescription. No other experimental or prophylactic use shall be permitted, and any permitted prescription is limited to one fourteen day prescription with no refills.
Are they trying to purposefully destroy the economy? I'm somewhat surprised at this. My working theory is that Joe Biden is a place holder to keep Bernie out, and that he'll withdraw for health reasons right before the convention, where it will be announced .... Cuomo is running. But if it turns out that this drug works, this Cuomo order will be plastered all over Trump ads. Maybe it's not Cuomo. Maybe they are concerned that the drug works and can't let Trump get such a major win after the fascist press jumped on him about it ( (((Streisand))) effect).
Also pharmaceutical companies were salivating thinking about future profits on toxic vaccines and Trump just kicked tht to touch.
They're already trying...
https://www.foodrenegade.com/insane-and-unacceptable-immoral-coronavirus-drug-profiteering/ (https://www.foodrenegade.com/insane-and-unacceptable-immoral-coronavirus-drug-profiteering/)
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Maybe we should shut down all schools every year.
Maybe we should shut down all businesses every year.
Maybe we should shut down all social events every year.
Maybe we should shut down all sports events every year.
Maybe we should all stop living because we are worried about the flu.
Maybe we should destroy the economy because we are worried about the flu.
Maybe we should allow hysteria to take total control of our lives all the time.
Let's all pretend that no one will ever get sick or die if we just panic enough.
Let's all panic 24/7/365 instead of waiting until the government tells us.
Quote from: james03 on March 26, 2020, 07:58:10 AM
Maybe they are concerned that the drug works and can't let Trump get such a major win after the fascist press jumped on him about it
That would be my guess. MSM is mocking and suppressing every attempt to remediate this, in WH briefings (hostile reporter questions at press conferences) and in print. (Every time a trial or offer is made, NYT immediately derides it on their front page.) Must show the current situation to be "a disaster," "apocalyptic," "unending," etc. The opposition knows that the way to defeat a sitting president is to defeat the economy. The more the crisis atmosphere can be sustained and the economy suffer ("locked down"), the more Trump can be blamed.
Quote from: Maximilian on March 26, 2020, 10:47:31 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Maybe we should shut down all schools every year.
Maybe we should shut down all businesses every year.
Maybe we should shut down all social events every year.
Maybe we should shut down all sports events every year.
Maybe we should all stop living because we are worried about the flu.
Maybe we should destroy the economy because we are worried about the flu.
Maybe we should allow hysteria to take total control of our lives all the time.
Let's all pretend that no one will ever get sick or die if we just panic enough.
Let's all panic 24/7/365 instead of waiting until the government tells us.
Precisely. But the ultimate point is the one truly underlying narrative of "panic" in the First World: that First World people should die in the first place. Death and its
likelihood inevitability = panic. This is the real arrogance of the developed world, but particularly the 21st century world. I see this in my students all the time: They are affronted by mortality itself and want technology to invent a way for the human race not to die, especially if immortality is accompanied by a permanent life of ease.
Look, Mike, I get your point about contagion and what you're implying about the carelessness of people and how that carelessness can lead to death for many others. One of the minor "positives" of this situation today is that millions of people are finally becoming more away of how their hygiene habits affect others and how others affect them in the same way. I'm one of these people who has also distanced myself from others in public, knowing/seeing how many people are inconsiderate in their hygiene and respect of the "space" of others. (But honestly, the latter is also related to my claustrophobia.) Maybe my habit of distancing is why (?) I have rarely had the flu in my life -- I think the last time was in my early 20's.
But you and I and Max could die of a myriad other causes, including pedestrian accidents or a sudden complication of a chronic condition we have. One of the principles of immunology, if I understand correctly, is that it's better for people to become gradually exposed to viruses, etc., during their lifetimes because that builds up immunity.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 26, 2020, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: Maximilian on March 26, 2020, 10:47:31 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Maybe we should shut down all schools every year.
Maybe we should shut down all businesses every year.
Maybe we should shut down all social events every year.
Maybe we should shut down all sports events every year.
Maybe we should all stop living because we are worried about the flu.
Maybe we should destroy the economy because we are worried about the flu.
Maybe we should allow hysteria to take total control of our lives all the time.
Let's all pretend that no one will ever get sick or die if we just panic enough.
Let's all panic 24/7/365 instead of waiting until the government tells us.
Precisely. But the ultimate point is the one truly underlying narrative of "panic" in the First World: that First World people should die in the first place. Death and its likelihood inevitability = panic. This is the real arrogance of the developed world, but particularly the 21st century world. I see this in my students all the time: They are affronted by mortality itself and want technology to invent a way for the human race not to die, especially if immortality is accompanied by a permanent life of ease.
Look, Mike, I get your point about contagion and what you're implying about the carelessness of people and how that carelessness can lead to death for many others. One of the minor "positives" of this situation today is that millions of people are finally becoming more away of how their hygiene habits affect others and how others affect them in the same way. I'm one of these people who has also distanced myself from others in public, knowing/seeing how many people are inconsiderate in their hygiene and respect of the "space" of others. (But honestly, the latter is also related to my claustrophobia.) Maybe my habit of distancing is why (?) I have rarely had the flu in my life -- I think the last time was in my early 20's.
But you and I and Max could die of a myriad other causes, including pedestrian accidents or a sudden complication of a chronic condition we have. One of the principles of immunology, if I understand correctly, is that it's better for people to become gradually exposed to viruses, etc., during their lifetimes because that builds up immunity.
The bolded is what I hope we gain from this pandemic. A pedestrian accident and such are not contagious. Max can spin it however he wants; the bottom line though is that it shouldn't take a pandemic to teach some people that we shouldn't be spreading our germs.
Quote from: diaduit on March 26, 2020, 10:24:34 AM
Quote from: james03 on March 26, 2020, 07:58:10 AM
First Nevada, and now New York:
QuoteNo pharmacist shall dispense hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine except when written as prescribed for an FDA-approved indication; or as part of a state approved clinical trial related to COVID-19 for a patient who has tested positive for COVID-19, with such test result documented as part of the prescription. No other experimental or prophylactic use shall be permitted, and any permitted prescription is limited to one fourteen day prescription with no refills.
Are they trying to purposefully destroy the economy? I'm somewhat surprised at this. My working theory is that Joe Biden is a place holder to keep Bernie out, and that he'll withdraw for health reasons right before the convention, where it will be announced .... Cuomo is running. But if it turns out that this drug works, this Cuomo order will be plastered all over Trump ads. Maybe it's not Cuomo. Maybe they are concerned that the drug works and can't let Trump get such a major win after the fascist press jumped on him about it ( (((Streisand))) effect).
This crossed my.mind, Trump would have God like status if the critically ill started to recover, with a cheap drug and he switches back on the economy long before the other countries.
Also pharmaceutical companies were salivating thinking about future profits on toxic vaccines and Trump just kicked tht to touch.
That would be cool.
Quote from: John Lamb on March 26, 2020, 09:23:09 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:16:04 AMNew York hospitals treating coronavirus patients with vitamin C
#FreeKreuzritter
The article says exactly what Kreuzritter was talking about; intravenous vitamin C. Apparently they have been getting good results with it in China. That's not why he was banned though. The article also mentions hydroxychloroquine.
https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/new-york-hospitals-treating-coronavirus-patients-with-vitamin-c/
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
Finally, to something mentioned earlier by James: yeah, 8000 flu deaths in Italy in a whole year. And nearly 8000 coronavirus deaths in Italy in like 20 days. Just the same, right? Anyway, for updates: 475,000 cases. 21000 deaths.
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Are you insane! This is really getting into Alice in Wonderland territory now. Or perhaps Monty Python would be more apt. You cannot run the world on the basis of emotions. "Won't somebody please think of the children ..."
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_ryjjeNc5k[/yt]
Quote from: clau clau on March 26, 2020, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
Finally, to something mentioned earlier by James: yeah, 8000 flu deaths in Italy in a whole year. And nearly 8000 coronavirus deaths in Italy in like 20 days. Just the same, right? Anyway, for updates: 475,000 cases. 21000 deaths.
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Are you insane! This is really getting into Alice in Wonderland territory now. Or perhaps Monty Python would be more apt. You cannot run the world on the basis of emotions. "Won't somebody please think of the children ..."
Oh you moron. What I am referring to is staying away from retirement homes and nursing homes when you have the flu or anything contagious. And staying home from a job that deals with the public, like restaurants when you have the flu or anything contagious. The first death in Canada from the corona virus was not from travel. It was a person in a nursing home in Vancouver that acquired it from a health care worker that had two jobs; the other one in a hospital. Since then at least two other elderly have died in that same nursing home and some staff have acquired the corona virus from the same spread. Same in a nursing home in Bobcaygen, Ontario, with one death, a couple elderly have got it there plus some staff. Same with the flu; last year I acquired a nasty dry cough from a restaurant worker that I had to stay away from Mass for 5 weeks (you know, so I wouldn't spread it). And when I was hospitalized this passed January I got the flu from someone that was over visiting. The first thing he said when he sat down was "I have the flu". Four days later I was gasping for air on my way to the hospital in an ambulance. He should have known better; he knew I had COPD.
Yes, I agree, Mike. When we are sick with a contagious disease, it's a charity, to others also, and to ourselves as well, to ensure we stay safe, and isolated, when necessary. One of the complications here may be that a widespread cure for coronavirus isn't promoted yet.
I personally am hopeful chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine will prove to be helpful against the disease, both as a "prophylaxis" or preventive, and even potentially for some time after one has incurred the disease, provided the medicine is taken quickly after it.
Here's a poem written by Dr. Li Wen Liang before his death, trying to warn the people: https://pccpv.org/the-hero-who-told-the-truth/
"THE HERO WHO TOLD THE TRUTH
You probably have heard about the doctor in China who first sounded the alarm about the coronavirus in December. His name is Dr. Li Wen Liang. He died on February 7 after contracting the disease himself. Evidently, he was a Christian and continued to serve the coronavirus patients out of his Christian convictions. When he was sick and near death, he wrote a poem expressing his thoughts about the entire situation. Let his heart touch yours this morning. — Jim
"I don't want to be a hero.
I still have my parents,
And my children, And my pregnant wife who's about to give birth,
And many of my patients in the ward.
Though my integrity cannot be exchanged for the goodness of others,
Despite my loss and confusion,
I should proceed anyway.
Who let me choose this country and this family?
How many grievances do I have?
When this battle is over,
I will look up to the sky,
With tears like rain.
I don't want to be a hero.
But as a doctor,
I cannot just see this unknown virus
Hurting my peers
And so many innocent people.
Though they are dying,
They are always looking at me in their eyes,
With their hope of life.
Who would have ever realized that I was going to die?
My soul is in heaven,
Looking at the white bed,
On which lies my own body,
With the same familiar face.
Where are my parents?
And my dear wife,
The lady I once had a hard time chasing?
There is a light in the sky!
At the end of that light is the heaven that people often talk about.
But I'd rather not go there.
I'd rather go back to my hometown in Wuhan.
I have my new house there,
For which I still have to pay off the loan every month.
How can I give up?
How can I give up?
For my parents without their son,
How sad must it be?
For my sweetheart without her husband,
How can she face the vicissitudes in her future?
I am already gone.
I see them taking my body,
Putting it into a bag,
With which lie many compatriots
Gone like me,
Being pushed into the fire in the hearth
At dawn.
Goodbye, my dear ones.
Farewell, Wuhan, my hometown.
Hopefully, after the disaster,
You'll remember someone once
Tried to let you know the truth as soon as possible.
Hopefully, after the disaster,
You'll learn what it means to be righteous.
No more good people
Should suffer from endless fear,
And helpless sadness.
"I have fought the good fight. I have finished the race. I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness." 2 Timothy 4:7, Holy Bible"
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 12:40:27 PM
Quote from: clau clau on March 26, 2020, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
Finally, to something mentioned earlier by James: yeah, 8000 flu deaths in Italy in a whole year. And nearly 8000 coronavirus deaths in Italy in like 20 days. Just the same, right? Anyway, for updates: 475,000 cases. 21000 deaths.
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Are you insane! This is really getting into Alice in Wonderland territory now. Or perhaps Monty Python would be more apt. You cannot run the world on the basis of emotions. "Won't somebody please think of the children ..."
Oh you moron. What I am referring to is staying away from retirement homes and nursing homes when you have the flu or anything contagious. And staying home from a job that deals with the public, like restaurants when you have the flu or anything contagious. The first death in Canada from the corona virus was not from travel. It was a person in a nursing home in Vancouver that acquired it from a health care worker that had two jobs; the other one in a hospital. Since then at least two other elderly have died in that same nursing home and some staff have acquired the corona virus from the same spread. Same in a nursing home in Bobcaygen, Ontario, with one death, a couple elderly have got it there plus some staff. Same with the flu; last year I acquired a nasty dry cough from a restaurant worker that I had to stay away from Mass for 5 weeks (you know, so I wouldn't spread it). And when I was hospitalized this passed January I got the flu from someone that was over visiting. The first thing he said when he sat down was "I have the flu". Four days later I was gasping for air on my way to the hospital in an ambulance. He should have known better; he knew I had COPD.
Congratulations. You are now on my ignore list.
If you ignore everyone, you may not have many people to discuss with. That happens. It's a discussion forum, so it may be better to discuss and not do that. But up to each one personally. I personally have disagreed with some people, but never felt the urge to ignore anyone.
Anyway, cases are skyrocketing still. I don't recall what it was at last update. But it's well over 500,000 now. 525,000 in fact. Nearly 25,000 deaths. Cases in US have almost caught up to Cases in Italy at 80,000. It'll be a Real Easter Miracle when the Lord delivers us. Let us pray.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
New Daily Cases: Over 50,000. New Daily Deaths: Over 2,000. According to the source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Online Xavier
Re: Chinese dropping like flies
« Reply #1221 on: Today at 03:51:18 PM »
Say ThanksQuote
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.
It looks scary but remember many of these people have died of other causes and many times tested false positive or vice versa. I believe, as according to this article https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-usa-targeting-italy-and-south-korea/5707042
and facebook testimonies this virus was here already in late 2019. Lots of people had signs of corona and ended up hospitalized for pneumonia. This is one of the reasons why so many are symptom free yet test positive. they already developed antibodies to this virus. It is also very hard to get rid of. It was lab made/
https://fromrome.info/2020/03/26/rai-in-2015-reported-that-the-chinese-had-developed-covid-19/
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 01:51:18 PM
If you ignore everyone, you may not have many people to discuss with. That happens. It's a discussion forum, so it may be better to discuss and not do that. But up to each one personally. I personally have disagreed with some people, but never felt the urge to ignore anyone.
Anyway, cases are skyrocketing still. I don't recall what it was at last update. But it's well over 500,000 now. 525,000 in fact. Nearly 25,000 deaths. Cases in US have almost caught up to Cases in Italy at 80,000. It'll be a Real Easter Miracle when the Lord delivers us. Let us pray.
Please stop generalizing, Xavier, because location differences are real. Skyrocketing in some areas, stable or declining in others. Also, Germany has a ton of cases but fewer deaths than some other areas with fewer cases because more of their cases are among healthier, younger patients.
The situation is real but it is not helpful to be an alarmist. It is necessary for everyone to be cautious and sparing in all of their behavior, rationing exposure to self and others, rationing use of one's own food and supplies at home, which is a public service to all. Consume less, and need less.
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 12:40:27 PM
Quote from: clau clau on March 26, 2020, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
Finally, to something mentioned earlier by James: yeah, 8000 flu deaths in Italy in a whole year. And nearly 8000 coronavirus deaths in Italy in like 20 days. Just the same, right? Anyway, for updates: 475,000 cases. 21000 deaths.
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Are you insane! This is really getting into Alice in Wonderland territory now. Or perhaps Monty Python would be more apt. You cannot run the world on the basis of emotions. "Won't somebody please think of the children ..."
Oh you moron. What I am referring to is staying away from retirement homes and nursing homes when you have the flu or anything contagious. And staying home from a job that deals with the public, like restaurants when you have the flu or anything contagious. The first death in Canada from the corona virus was not from travel. It was a person in a nursing home in Vancouver that acquired it from a health care worker that had two jobs; the other one in a hospital. Since then at least two other elderly have died in that same nursing home and some staff have acquired the corona virus from the same spread. Same in a nursing home in Bobcaygen, Ontario, with one death, a couple elderly have got it there plus some staff. Same with the flu; last year I acquired a nasty dry cough from a restaurant worker that I had to stay away from Mass for 5 weeks (you know, so I wouldn't spread it). And when I was hospitalized this passed January I got the flu from someone that was over visiting. The first thing he said when he sat down was "I have the flu". Four days later I was gasping for air on my way to the hospital in an ambulance. He should have known better; he knew I had COPD.
I do think that some people who beat their way into work or carry on as normal while battling a flu think its a badge of honour to stay going, kind of waving their fist in the air at the flu shouting you won't get me down, likes to be seen as the martyr.....when in fact they are being real dicks about it.
I don't believe in the past people got as sick as they do now. I mean regular flus every year or two, I don't think was a normal pattern. But because we have crap food, central heating, heated cars, vaccines and contaminated air from cars, our immune system is just not up to par or at least a fraction of what people had as immune systems 100 years ago. So for this reason, yes people should stay at home when they are sick. Keep your novo virus kids at home too. I'm sick and tired of mothers coming to me for a visit or sending in little johnny who was puking yesterday, into my house to play with mine, stay at home for 48 hours .......I have one friend who has a heart attack if you call to her house and your kids have a runny nose (which I always respect) but when hers have a runny nose, she's fine about landing out to me.
Hopefully one good thing will come from this virus and that's self discipline when it comes to hygiene and infection control.
From Martin's Link: "Here is my summation: The report regards the shock from international experts on virology that China had announced "success" in creating a chimera SARS virus, by taking a SARS virus which was not lethal in mice and grafting into its genetic code parts of a coronavirus from Bats which live in China, so that the resulting virus would have the ability to latch on to the proteins in the walls of human lungs and thus be highly dangerous.
The news of the development caused governments to stop co-funding the Chinese BioLab responsible and issue warnings that such research was not beneficial in any determinate way to the advancement of science, nay, was a threat to humanity itself."
If it was lab made, all the more reason to continue Dr. Li Wen Liang's noble work and warn the world of the danger of the new and improved SARS Coronavirus. The best thing to do after the virus is defeated would be to launch an independent investigation imo.
We don't know what they were working on and what got released, but yes there is reason to be suspicious. I am hopeful a cure can be found. But the right thing to do right now imo is not to downplay the virus or its severity. It is to report on the facts exactly.
Miriam, I'm speaking purely as a statistician. 50,000 more worldwide cases in a day is, objectively, a serious increase over past days. I've seen the increases for past days and it was much less. Maybe in some places in the US it is declining, but on the whole, the stats say, it has increased by 10,000. Do you dispute that? Anyway, it is at 56,000 in Spain now, over 6000 more than the previous day, at nearly 44,000 in Germany, again over 6000 in a day - and Italy, Iran, France etc have all seen serious increases as well.
Those are the numbers. What we do about them is another matter. I am not for fear or panic. I am for responsible precautions, lot of prayer, and patience to overcome this.
Edit: On a related note, I just saw this: "$20 trillion lawsuit against China! US group says coronavirus is bioweapon
Coronavirus update: The plaintiffs have sought USD 20 trillion, which is a bigger amount than China's GDP, claiming coronavirus is the result of a biological weapon prepared by the Chinese authorities" https://www.businesstoday.in/current/world/usd-20-trillion-lawsuit-against-china-us-group-says-coronavirus-bioweapon/story/399071.html
Quote from: diaduit on March 26, 2020, 02:11:58 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 12:40:27 PM
Quote from: clau clau on March 26, 2020, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
Finally, to something mentioned earlier by James: yeah, 8000 flu deaths in Italy in a whole year. And nearly 8000 coronavirus deaths in Italy in like 20 days. Just the same, right? Anyway, for updates: 475,000 cases. 21000 deaths.
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Are you insane! This is really getting into Alice in Wonderland territory now. Or perhaps Monty Python would be more apt. You cannot run the world on the basis of emotions. "Won't somebody please think of the children ..."
Oh you moron. What I am referring to is staying away from retirement homes and nursing homes when you have the flu or anything contagious. And staying home from a job that deals with the public, like restaurants when you have the flu or anything contagious. The first death in Canada from the corona virus was not from travel. It was a person in a nursing home in Vancouver that acquired it from a health care worker that had two jobs; the other one in a hospital. Since then at least two other elderly have died in that same nursing home and some staff have acquired the corona virus from the same spread. Same in a nursing home in Bobcaygen, Ontario, with one death, a couple elderly have got it there plus some staff. Same with the flu; last year I acquired a nasty dry cough from a restaurant worker that I had to stay away from Mass for 5 weeks (you know, so I wouldn't spread it). And when I was hospitalized this passed January I got the flu from someone that was over visiting. The first thing he said when he sat down was "I have the flu". Four days later I was gasping for air on my way to the hospital in an ambulance. He should have known better; he knew I had COPD.
I do think that some people who beat their way into work or carry on as normal while battling a flu think its a badge of honour to stay going, kind of waving their fist in the air at the flu shouting you won't get me down, likes to be seen as the martyr.....when in fact they are being real dicks about it.
I don't believe in the past people got as sick as they do now. I mean regular flus every year or two, I don't think was a normal pattern. But because we have crap food, central heating, heated cars, vaccines and contaminated air from cars, our immune system is just not up to par or at least a fraction of what people had as immune systems 100 years ago. So for this reason, yes people should stay at home when they are sick. Keep your novo virus kids at home too. I'm sick and tired of mothers coming to me for a visit or sending in little johnny who was puking yesterday, into my house to play with mine, stay at home for 48 hours .......I have one friend who has a heart attack if you call to her house and your kids have a runny nose (which I always respect) but when hers have a runny nose, she's fine about landing out to me.
Hopefully one good thing will come from this virus and that's self discipline when it comes to hygiene and infection control.
(https://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/images/1infantmort.jpg)
Caveat: This does not include Abortion. You would probably have to reverse this graph for that!
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 02:25:23 PM
Miriam, I'm speaking purely as a statistician.
Those are the numbers.
Hopefully, you are not appointing yourself as a diviner, because
cases do not equal
deaths, unless you think you are also capable of seeing into the future.
That has to be Strawman of the year. I didn't say Cases and Deaths were equal. This is what I said.
"New Daily Cases: Over 50,000. New Daily Deaths: Over 2,000". Neither panic nor denial is right.
The golden mean is between those extremes. I understand emotions are flying high. But there it is.
Dr. Francis Boyle, who authored a Bio-Weapons Act, says that coronavirus is a bioweapon, and the WHO already knows about it.
From: https://greatgameindia.com/dr-francis-boyle-creator-of-bioweapons-act-says-coronavirus-is-biological-warfare-weapon/
Dr. Francis Boyle Creator Of BioWeapons Act Says Coronavirus Is Biological Warfare Weapon
By GreatGameIndia -February 3, 2020| Last modified on March 23rd, 2020 at 1:51 am,
In an explosive interview Dr. Francis Boyle, who drafted the Biological Weapons Act has given a detailed statement admitting that the 2019 Wuhan Coronavirus is an offensive Biological Warfare Weapon and that the World Health Organization (WHO) already knows about it.
(https://greatgameindia.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Dr-Francis-Boyle-Coronavirus-Biological-Warfare-Weapon.jpg)
Francis Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. He drafted the U.S. domestic implementing legislation for the Biological Weapons Convention, known as the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989, that was approved unanimously by both Houses of the U.S. Congress and signed into law by President George H.W. Bush.
In an exclusive interview given to Geopolitics and Empire, Dr. Boyle discusses the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, China and the Biosafety Level 4 laboratory (BSL-4) from which he believes the infectious disease escaped. He believes the virus is potentially lethal and an offensive biological warfare weapon or dual-use biowarfare weapons agent genetically modified with gain of function properties, which is why the Chinese government originally tried to cover it up and is now taking drastic measures to contain it. The Wuhan BSL-4 lab is also a specially designated World Health Organization (WHO) research lab and Dr. Boyle contends that the WHO knows full well what is occurring."
The End of the Silk Road 2.0
(https://i.imgflip.com/3sz1g0.jpg)
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 11:31:19 AM
The bottom line though is that it shouldn't take a pandemic to teach some people that we shouldn't be spreading our germs.
We should be coming in contact with as many germs as possible. That's how you get healthy children. The other way is how you get no children, because people decide subconsciously or even consciously that they don't want one sickly child whose allergies, real or imagined, control their life.
In one of the James Herriot books, he's about to lecture the man who grinds up dead animals for dog food that his children shouldn't be playing around the contaminated meat. He suddenly realizes, however, that this man's children are actually incredibly healthy and good-looking and he has the humility to see that maybe he's not in a position to criticize those doing better than he.
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 02:40:17 PM
That has to be Strawman of the year. I didn't say Cases and Deaths were equal. This is what I said.
"New Daily Cases: Over 50,000. New Daily Deaths: Over 2,000". Neither panic nor denial is right.
The golden mean is between those extremes. I understand emotions are flying high. But there it is.
I think
your emotions are flying high, but you are not being honest enough to admit it. We don't need you to pile on more sensationalism, as if you are our father and we are too young to read the news. All you're doing is duplicating what anyone on the forum is capable of reading in many sources, but you are not also (speaking of the balance that you yourself lack) publishing anything about definite or probably recoveries, as well as proportion of deaths to cases. That's where the rubber meets the road.
Not content to spam us with apparitions because too many for your taste ignore those posts, you are now spamming us with duplicate news stories. Please stop. It's not a Catholic thing to do. It would only be Catholic if we were deprived of news sources.
There is new evidence that loss of smell (anosmia) may be an indicator of COVD-19 infection. New reports also suggest that COVID-19 may cause conjunctivitis (pink eye), and be potentially spread through contact with the conjunctiva. Dr. Seheult discusses evidence about how untreated fever may be beneficial for fighting viral illnesses such as coronavirus.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4eu-h_owaI[/yt]
Thank you for the constructive information, Vetus.
I haven't yet had time to watch the video Vetus just posted, but speaking of pink eye, I did hear on the news, within the last couple of days, that medical workers had reported of some patients that "they all had red eyes." Sorry, don't know location or more details than that at the moment.
Quote from: clau clau on March 26, 2020, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 26, 2020, 02:11:58 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 12:40:27 PM
Quote from: clau clau on March 26, 2020, 12:03:32 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 26, 2020, 01:56:07 AM
Finally, to something mentioned earlier by James: yeah, 8000 flu deaths in Italy in a whole year. And nearly 8000 coronavirus deaths in Italy in like 20 days. Just the same, right? Anyway, for updates: 475,000 cases. 21000 deaths.
When we compare the amount of flu deaths to the amount of coronavirus deaths we are looking at it the wrong way. Why don't people care about the amount of flu deaths, should be the question. Maybe we should start to realize that we should stay to f___ home when we have the flu too. Maybe we should start to realize when we spread the flu we could be killing people too.
Are you insane! This is really getting into Alice in Wonderland territory now. Or perhaps Monty Python would be more apt. You cannot run the world on the basis of emotions. "Won't somebody please think of the children ..."
Oh you moron. What I am referring to is staying away from retirement homes and nursing homes when you have the flu or anything contagious. And staying home from a job that deals with the public, like restaurants when you have the flu or anything contagious. The first death in Canada from the corona virus was not from travel. It was a person in a nursing home in Vancouver that acquired it from a health care worker that had two jobs; the other one in a hospital. Since then at least two other elderly have died in that same nursing home and some staff have acquired the corona virus from the same spread. Same in a nursing home in Bobcaygen, Ontario, with one death, a couple elderly have got it there plus some staff. Same with the flu; last year I acquired a nasty dry cough from a restaurant worker that I had to stay away from Mass for 5 weeks (you know, so I wouldn't spread it). And when I was hospitalized this passed January I got the flu from someone that was over visiting. The first thing he said when he sat down was "I have the flu". Four days later I was gasping for air on my way to the hospital in an ambulance. He should have known better; he knew I had COPD.
I do think that some people who beat their way into work or carry on as normal while battling a flu think its a badge of honour to stay going, kind of waving their fist in the air at the flu shouting you won't get me down, likes to be seen as the martyr.....when in fact they are being real dicks about it.
I don't believe in the past people got as sick as they do now. I mean regular flus every year or two, I don't think was a normal pattern. But because we have crap food, central heating, heated cars, vaccines and contaminated air from cars, our immune system is just not up to par or at least a fraction of what people had as immune systems 100 years ago. So for this reason, yes people should stay at home when they are sick. Keep your novo virus kids at home too. I'm sick and tired of mothers coming to me for a visit or sending in little johnny who was puking yesterday, into my house to play with mine, stay at home for 48 hours .......I have one friend who has a heart attack if you call to her house and your kids have a runny nose (which I always respect) but when hers have a runny nose, she's fine about landing out to me.
Hopefully one good thing will come from this virus and that's self discipline when it comes to hygiene and infection control.
(https://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/images/1infantmort.jpg)
Caveat: This does not include Abortion. You would probably have to reverse this graph for that!
I'm talking day to day sickness...flu, colds, headaches, fatige, anxiety etc
Obviously we are much better at 'not dying' in 21st century compared to 100 years ago but its the long years in between where every day we are just wrecked from poor living.
USA: 85,400, Dead: 1,295 (I predicted 1,500 by Sunday to stay exponential)
Italy: 80,600, Dead: 8,215 (I predicted 12,000 by Sunday. Looks like they are improving. Running around 8 day doubling rate vs. 4 day doubling in US, or maybe even they've reduced to linear growth).
Quote from: clau clau on March 20, 2020, 03:24:27 AM
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
James, Xavier,
Perhaps you could start reporting sucides in your figures.
Here's one from the UK yesterday.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/mans-body-found-sea-near-3964629
Told you. :-(
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/i-would-rather-be-dead-calls-suicide-hotlines-spike-amid-covid-19-pandemic
China already banned all foreigners from flying to China, including those with visas. But now they've banned any international flight into Beijing (such as for Chinese nationals) and rerouted all flights to Shanghai. Any whom want to continue on to Beijing must go through a longer screening process in Shanghai and then of course the 14 day quarantine upon arrival in Beijing. I think it is interesting that they are turning Beijing into a fortress.
There are a lot of things about all of this going on that seem to conflict. Hard to make sense of it all.
Quote from: queen.saints on March 26, 2020, 03:09:34 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 26, 2020, 11:31:19 AM
The bottom line though is that it shouldn't take a pandemic to teach some people that we shouldn't be spreading our germs.
We should be coming in contact with as many germs as possible. That's how you get healthy children. The other way is how you get no children, because people decide subconsciously or even consciously that they don't want one sickly child whose allergies, real or imagined, control their life.
In one of the James Herriot books, he's about to lecture the man who grinds up dead animals for dog food that his children shouldn't be playing around the contaminated meat. He suddenly realizes, however, that this man's children are actually incredibly healthy and good-looking and he has the humility to see that maybe he's not in a position to criticize those doing better than he.
I guess this is why my sister was sick all the time when she had foster kids. They were bringing something home all the time. With this attitude no wonder so many die of the flu.
Quote from: Miriampublishing anything about definite or probably recoveries, as well as proportion of deaths to cases
Heh. Your claims are almost exactly wrong. I was the first person on this thread to mention chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine and their prophylactic potential. I also computed the percentage of cases to deaths many pages back. Go back and read if you want to verify that.
What I said was a correct analysis: the day-on-day increase yesterday was more than in previous day. If you don't want to admit that, tough. Be in denial for a few more days if you want. I don't need your approval to post. I will continue to warn of what Dr. Li warned about.
Some of you naysayers were also claiming the whole thing would end before there were even 20,000 deaths. Well, that's demonstrably falsified now. It's obvious that some of you are in denial; and will continue to be such for a few more days at least, evidently. It's fine.
something is not right. People are in isolation in New York and yet the cases are doubling. Is it possible that they are not telling us everything like for example that the virus stays suspended in the air or something.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 27, 2020, 11:04:29 AM
something is not right. People are in isolation in New York and yet the cases are doubling. Is it possible that they are not telling us everything like for example that the virus stays suspended in the air or something.
Fauci had said something about a week to 10 days ago about "the aerosol effect," and someone questioned him further about it, but he was only proposing a theory about it lingering in the air, I believe, and without data, did not want to make a definitive statement about it.
Of course it would/could linger in the air when expelled in droplets, but I suppose what you're asking and what Fauci might have been hinting, is dry exhaling of the virus, without moisture from sneezing, coughing, etc.
Outside of exhaling, I'm not ready to sign on to bioterrorism yet ("in the air") because that would be too massive an effort and too ingenious for my imagination, I think. If it can be carried without human contact (or, despite 100% isolation from human contact, or from carriers), then that would involve a fair number of agents, I would think, within this country.
It isn't logical to me that China (or another country) would allow its own country to be infected just for an opportunity to strike a blow to the U.S.
When you read the fine print of these sensationalistic stories that (I agree) IMPLY that something more nefarious and invisible and supposedly impossible-to-contain is at work, the fine print tells you that everyday human contact and/or contact with public surfaces (ATM machines, handrails on public transit or escalators, doorknobs...) was operating. Most Americans were not hygienic enough (handwashing habits) before Covid. Before Covid, I have kept some public distance (more like 3-4 feet) from others, because of that. People who continued their casual hygiene and physical closeness with others have been the ones most susceptible.
It really has helped not to be a social butterfly. I never have been one, and have liked few parties in my entire life so far (maybe 10 total). I don't consider going out in public "essential" in the way some people do, and I live in an area where driving a car -- over taking public transportation -- is pretty standard.
I am not going to comment on the airborne pathology, but I will say to be careful with the media and what they peddle as facts.
I got a piece of paper today that basically titles me as an "essential worker" and to carry it with me in case a police offer or even military stops me! Who knew that we have to be "given permission" to go to work!?
Not only that but the governor of my state is encouraging anyone to snitch on "non-essential" businesses!
Sounds awfully a lot like the Iron Curtain to me!
How long before martial law or the military pulling up on your street?
BTW this virus was here last year and is making rounds. Lots of people had mysterious pneumonia.
I don;t know where we can get reliable news and objective information but so far lewrockwell and Joe Rappaport's blog keeps me sane. Also Globalresearch.ca is pretty good.
There is an agenda. In their latest article at globalresearch.com you can easily see that the current pandemic has been and is manufactured https://www.globalresearch.ca/manufactured-pandemic-testing-people-any-strain-coronavirus-not-specifically-covid-19/5707781
QuoteThe following is from a medical forum. The writer, who is a widely respected professional scientist in the US, prefers to stay anonymous, because presenting any narrative different than the official one can cause you a lot of stress in the toxic environment caused by the scam which surrounds COVID-19 these days. – Julian Rose
***
I work in the healthcare field. Here's the problem, we are testing people for any strain of a Coronavirus. Not specifically for COVID-19. There are no reliable tests for a specific COVID-19 virus. There are no reliable agencies or media outlets for reporting numbers of actual COVID-19 virus cases. This needs to be addressed first and foremost. Every action and reaction to COVID-19 is based on totally flawed data and we simply can not make accurate assessments.
This is why you're hearing that most people with COVID-19 are showing nothing more than cold/flu like symptoms. That's because most Coronavirus strains are nothing more than cold/flu like symptoms. The few actual novel Coronavirus cases do have some worse respiratory responses, but still have a very promising recovery rate, especially for those without prior issues.
The 'gold standard' in testing for COVID-19 is laboratory isolated/purified coronavirus particles free from any contaminants and particles that look like viruses but are not, that have been proven to be the cause of the syndrome known as COVID-19 and obtained by using proper viral isolation methods and controls (not the PCR that is currently being used or Serology /antibody tests which do not detect virus as such). PCR basically takes a sample of your cells and amplifies any DNA to look for 'viral sequences', i.e. bits of non-human DNA that seem to match parts of a known viral genome.
The problem is the test is known not to work.
It uses 'amplification' which means taking a very very tiny amount of DNA and growing it exponentially until it can be analyzed. Obviously any minute contaminations in the sample will also be amplified leading to potentially gross errors of discovery.
Additionally, it's only looking for partial viral sequences, not whole genomes, so identifying a single pathogen is next to impossible even if you ignore the other issues.
The New Coronavirus Outbreak, COVID-19, Sounds Menacing and Is
The Mickey Mouse test kits being sent out to hospitals, at best, tell analysts you have some viral DNA in your cells. Which most of us do, most of the time. It may tell you the viral sequence is related to a specific type of virus – say the huge family of coronavirus. But that's all. The idea these kits can isolate a specific virus like COVID-19 is nonsense.
And that's not even getting into the other issue – viral load.
If you remember the PCR works by amplifying minute amounts of DNA. It therefore is useless at telling you how much virus you may have. And that's the only question that really matters when it comes to diagnosing illness. Everyone will have a few virus kicking round in their system at any time, and most will not cause illness because their quantities are too small. For a virus to sicken you you need a lot of it, a massive amount of it. But PCR does not test viral load and therefore can't determine if a osteogenesis is present in sufficient quantities to sicken you.
If you feel sick and get a PCR test any random virus DNA might be identified even if they aren't at all involved in your sickness which leads to false diagnosis.
And coronavirus are incredibly common. A large percentage of the world human population will have covi DNA in them in small quantities even if they are perfectly well or sick with some other pathogen.
Do you see where this is going yet? If you want to create a totally false panic about a totally false pandemic – pick a coronavirus.
They are incredibly common and there's tons of them. A very high percentage of people who have become sick by other means (flu, bacterial pneumonia, anything) will have a positive
PCR test for covi even if you're doing them properly and ruling out contamination, simply because covis are so common.
There are hundreds of thousands of flu and pneumonia victims in hospitals throughout the world at any one time.
All you need to do is select the sickest of these in a single location – say Wuhan – administer PCR tests to them and claim anyone showing viral sequences similar to a coronavirus (which will inevitably be quite a few) is suffering from a 'new' disease.
Since you already selected the sickest flu cases a fairly high proportion of your sample will go on to die.
You can then say this 'new' virus has a CFR higher than the flu and use this to infuse more concern and do more tests which will of course produce more 'cases', which expands the testing, which produces yet more 'cases' and so on and so on.
Before long you have your 'pandemic', and all you have done is use a simple test kit trick to convert the worst flu and pneumonia cases into something new that doesn't actually exist.
Now just run the same scam in other countries. Making sure to keep the fear message running high so that people will feel panicky and less able to think critically.
Your only problem is going to be that – due to the fact there is no actual new deadly pathogen but just regular sick people, you are mislabeling your case numbers, and especially your deaths, are going to be way too low for a real new deadly virus pandemic.
But you can stop people pointing this out in several ways.
1. You can claim this is just the beginning and more deaths are imminent. Use this as an excuse to quarantine everyone and then claim the quarantine prevented the expected millions of dead.
2. You can tell people that 'minimizing' the dangers is irresponsible and bully them into not talking about numbers.
3. You can talk crap about made up numbers hoping to blind people with pseudoscience.
4. You can start testing well people (who, of course, will also likely have shreds of coronavirus DNA in them) and thus inflate your 'case figures' with 'asymptomatic carriers' (you will of course have to spin that to sound deadly even though any virologist knows the more symptom-less cases you have the less deadly is your pathogen.
Take these 4 simple steps and you can have your own entirely manufactured pandemic up and running in weeks.
They can not "confirm" something for which there is no accurate test.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 27, 2020, 12:47:35 PM
BTW this virus was here last year and is making rounds. Lots of people had mysterious pneumonia.
I don;t know where we can get reliable news and objective information but so far lewrockwell and Joe Rappaport's blog keeps me sane. Also Globalresearch.ca is pretty good.
There is an agenda. In their latest article at globalresearch.com you can easily see that the current pandemic has been and is manufactured https://www.globalresearch.ca/manufactured-pandemic-testing-people-any-strain-coronavirus-not-specifically-covid-19/5707781
Now that you mention it, I had a cold last winter that caused my asthma to flare up. I haven't had difficulty breathing in many years and yet last year (Dec 2018), there it was...
Very strange.
Italy just announced today a record number of 919 deaths in just 24 hours. It doesn't show signs of slowing down yet.
In following article you can witness the personal testimonies and the photographic evidence of the tragedy still unfolding in Bergamo.
'We Take the Dead From Morning Till Night'
NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/27/world/europe/coronavirus-italy-bergamo.html).
The streets of Bergamo are empty. As in all of Italy, people can leave their homes only for food and medicines and work. The factories and shops and schools are closed. There is no more chatting on the corners or in the coffee bars. But what won't stop are the sirens. While the world's attention now shifts to its own centers of contagion, the sirens keep sounding. Like the air raid sirens of the Second World War, they are the ambulance sirens that many survivors of this war will remember. They blare louder as they get closer, coming to collect the parents and grandparents, the keepers of Italy's memory. The grandchildren wave from terraces, and spouses sit back on the corners of now empty beds. And then the sirens start again, becoming fainter as the ambulances drive away toward hospitals crammed with coronavirus patients.
"At this point, all you hear in Bergamo is sirens," said Michela Travelli.
On March 7, her father, Claudio Travelli, 60, was driving a food delivery truck all around northern Italy. The next day, he developed a fever and flu-like symptoms. His wife had run a fever in recent days, and so he called his family doctor, who told him to take a common Italian fever reducer and rest up. For much of the prior month, Italian officials had sent mixed messages about the virus. On Feb. 19, some 40,000 people from Bergamo, a province of about a million people in the region of Lombardy, traveled 30 miles to Milan to watch a Champions League soccer game between Atalanta and the Spanish team Valencia. (The mayor of Bergamo, Giorgio Gori, this week called the match "a strong accelerator of contagion.") Mr. Travelli and his wife didn't take the threat of the virus seriously back then, their daughter said, "because it wasn't sold as a grave thing." But Mr. Travelli could not shake his fever, and he got sicker. On Friday, March 13, he felt unbearable pressure on his chest and suffered dry heaves. His temperature spiked and his family called an ambulance. An ambulance crew found her father with low levels of oxygen in his blood but, following the advice of Bergamo's hospitals, recommended he stay home. "They said, 'We have seen worse, and the hospitals are like the trenches of a war,'" Ms. Travelli said.
Another day at home led to a night of coughing fits and fever. On Sunday, Mr. Travelli woke up and wept, saying, "I'm sick. I can't do it anymore," his daughter said. He took more fever suppressant but his temperature climbed to nearly 103 degrees and his skin became yellow. This time, as the ambulance arrived, his daughters, both wearing gloves and masks, packed a bag with two pairs of pajamas, a bottle of water, a cellphone and a charger. His oxygen levels had dipped. Red Cross workers hovered over him on a bed, where he lay below a painting of the Virgin Mary. They brought him into the ambulance. His granddaughters, 3 and 6, waved goodbye from the terrace. He looked up at them, at the balconies draped with Italian flags. Then the ambulance left and there was nothing to hear. "Only the police and the sirens," his daughter said. The ambulance crew that took Mr. Travelli away had started early that morning.
At 7:30 a.m., a crew of three Red Cross volunteers met to make sure the ambulance was certified as cleaned and stocked with oxygen. Like masks and gloves, the tanks had become an increasingly rare resource. They blasted one another in sprays of alcohol disinfectants. They sanitized their cellphones. "We can't be the untori," said Nadia Vallati, 41, a Red Cross volunteer, whose day job is working in the city's tax office. She was referring to the infamous "anointers," suspected in Italian lore of spreading contagion during the 17th century plague. After sanitizing, Ms. Vallati and her colleagues wait for an alarm to sound in their headquarters. It never takes long. Indistinguishable from one another in the white medical scrubs pulled over their red uniforms, crew members entered Mr. Travelli's home on March 15 with tanks of oxygen. "Always with oxygen," Ms. Vallati said. One of the biggest dangers for coronavirus patients is hypoxemia, or low blood oxygen. Normal readings are between 95 and 100, and doctors worry when the number dips below 90. Ms. Vallati said she had found coronavirus patients with readings of 50. Their lips are blue. Their fingertips turn violet. They take rapid, shallow breaths and use their stomach muscles to pull in air. Their lungs are too weak.
In many of the apartments they visit, patients clutch small oxygen tanks, the size of SodaStreams, that are procured for them with a doctor's prescription by family members. They lie in bed next to them. They eat with them at the kitchen table. They watch the nightly reports of Italy's dead and infected with them on their couches. On March 15, Ms. Vallati put her hand, wrapped in two layers of blue gloves, on the chest of Teresina Coria, 88, as they measured her oxygen level. The next day, Antonio Amato, an outlier at the age of 40, sat in his armchair, holding his oxygen tank as his children, whom he could not hold for fear of contagion, waved to him from across the room. On a Saturday, Ms. Vallati found herself in the bedroom of a 90-year-old man. She asked his two granddaughters if he had had any contact with anyone who had the coronavirus. Yes, they said, the man's son, their father, who had died on Wednesday. Their grandmother, they told her, had been taken away on Friday and was in critical condition. They weren't crying, she said, because "they didn't have any tears left."
On another recent tour in the highly infected Valle Seriana under the Alps, Ms. Vallati said, they picked up a woman of about 80. Her husband of many decades asked to kiss her goodbye. But Ms. Vallati told him he could not, because the risk of contagion was too high. As the man watched the crew take his wife away, Ms. Vallati saw him go into another room and close the door behind him, she said. While those suspected of infection are taken to hospitals, the hospitals themselves are not safe. Bergamo officials first detected the coronavirus at the Pesenti Fenaroli di Alzano Lombardo hospital. By then, officials say, it had already been present for some time, masked as ordinary pneumonia, infecting other patients, doctors, and nurses. People carried it out of the hospital and into the city, out of the city and into the province. Young people passed it to their parents and grandparents. It spread around bingo halls and over coffee cups. The mayor, Mr. Gori, has talked about how infections have ravaged his town and nearly broken one of Europe's wealthiest and most sophisticated health care systems. Doctors estimate that 70,000 people in the province have the virus. Bergamo has had to send 400 bodies to other provinces and regions and countries because there is no room for them there.
"If we have to identify a spark," he said, "it was the hospital."
When an ambulance arrives, its crew proceeds with extreme caution. Only one of the three, the team leader, accompanies the patient inside. If the patient is heavy, another helps.
This weekend, a group of doctors from one Bergamo hospital wrote in a medical journal associated with The New England Journal of Medicine that "we are learning that hospitals might be the main Covid-19 carriers" and "as they are rapidly populated by infected patients, facilitating transmission to uninfected patients." Ambulances and their personnel get infected, they said, but perhaps show no symptoms, and spread the virus further. As a result, the doctors urged home care and mobile clinics to avoid bringing people to the hospital unless absolutely necessary. But Ms. Vallati said they had no choice with the gravest cases. The authors of the paper work at Bergamo's Papa Giovanni XXIII, where Ms. Vallati's crew have taken many of the sick. Dr. Ivano Riva, an anesthesiologist there, said the hospital was still admitting up to 60 new coronavirus patients a day. They are tested for the virus he said, but at this point the clinical evidence — the coughs, the low oxygen levels, the fevers — is a better indicator, especially since 30 percent of the tests produced false negatives. The hospital had 500 coronavirus patients, who occupied all 90 I.C.U. beds. About a month ago, the hospital had seven such beds.
Oxygen flows everywhere through Lombardy's hospitals now, and workers are constantly pushing carts of tanks around the corridors. A tanker truck filled with oxygen is parked outside. Patients are jammed next to supply closets and in hallways. Dr. Riva said 26 of his hospital's 101 medical staff members were out of work with the virus. "It's a situation that no one has ever seen, I don't think in any other part of the world," he said. If people don't stay at home, he said, "the system will fail." His colleagues wrote in the paper that intensive care unit beds were reserved for coronavirus patients with "a reasonable chance to survive." Older patients, they said, "are not being resuscitated and die alone." Mr. Travelli ended up at the nearby Humanitas Gavazzeni hospital, where, after a false negative, he tested positive for the virus. He is still alive. "Papi, you were lucky because you found a bed — now you have to fight, fight, fight," his daughter Michela told him in a telephone call, their last before he was fitted with a helmet to ease his breathing. "He was scared," she said. "He thought he was dying." In the meantime, Ms. Travelli said she had been quarantined and had lost her sense of taste for food, a frequent complaint among people without symptoms, but who have had close contact with the virus.
So many people are dying so quickly, the hospital mortuaries and funeral workers cannot keep up. "We take the dead from the morning till night, one after the other, constantly," said Vanda Piccioli, who runs one of the last funeral homes to remain open. Others have closed as a result of sick funeral directors, some in intensive care. "Usually we honor the dead. Now it's like a war and we collect the victims." Ms. Piccioli said one member of her staff had died of the virus on Sunday. She considered closing but decided they had a responsibility to keep going, despite what she said was constant terror of infection and emotional trauma. "You are a sponge and you take the pain of everybody," she said. She said her staff moved 60 infected bodies daily, from Papa Giovanni and Alzano hospitals, from clinics, from nursing homes and apartments. "It's hard for us to get masks and gloves," she said. "We are a category in the shadows." Ms. Piccioli said that in the beginning, they sought to get the personal effects of the dead, kept in red plastic bags, back to their loved ones. A tin of cookies. A mug. Pajamas. Slippers. But now they simply don't have time.
Still, the calls to the Red Cross crew do not stop.
On March 19, Ms. Vallati and her crew entered the apartment of Maddalena Peracchi, 77, in Gazzaniga. She had run out of oxygen. Her daughter Cinzia Cagnoni, 43, who lives in the apartment downstairs, had placed an order for a new tank that would arrive on Monday, but the Red Cross volunteers told her she wouldn't hold out that long. "We were a little agitated because we knew that this could be the last time we saw each other," Ms. Cagnoni said. "It's like sending someone to die alone." She and her sister and her father put on a brave face under their masks, she said. "You can do it,'' they told her mother, she said. "We will wait for you, there are still so many things we need to do with you. Fight back." The volunteers brought Ms. Peracchi down to the ambulance. One of her daughters urged her stunned grandchildren to bid farewell with louder voices. "I thought a thousand things,'' Ms. Cagnoni said. "Don't abandon me. God help us. God save my mother." The ambulance doors closed. The sirens sounded, as they do "all the hours of the day," Ms. Cagnoni said. The crew drove to Pesenti Fenaroli di Alzano Lombardo, where Ms. Peracchi was found to have the coronavirus and pneumonia on both sides of her lungs. On Thursday night, her daughter said she was "holding on by a thread."
Ms. Peracchi is a woman of deep Catholic faith, said her daughter, who spiked a temperature herself the night the ambulance took her mother away and has remained quarantined since. It pained her mother, she said, that if it came to it, "we cannot have a funeral." To contain the virus, all religious and civil celebrations are banned in Italy. That includes funerals. Bergamo's cemetery is locked shut. A chilling backlog of coffins waits in a traffic jam for the crematorium inside the cemetery's church. Officials have banned changing the clothes of the dead and require that people be buried or cremated in the pajamas or medical gowns they perish in. Corpses need to be wrapped in an extra bag or cloaked in a disinfecting cloth. The lids of coffins, which usually cannot be closed without a formal death certificate, now can be, though they still have to wait to be sealed. Bodies often linger in homes for days, as stairs and stuffy rooms become especially dangerous. "We are trying to avoid it," the funeral director, Ms. Piccioli, said of home visits. Nursing homes were much easier because you could arrive with five or six coffins to be filled and loaded directly into the vans. "I know it's terrible to say," she said. Through a network of local priests, she helps arrange quick prayers, rather than proper funerals, for the dead and the families who are not quarantined. That was the case for Teresina Gregis, who was interred at the Alzano Lombardo cemetery on March 21 after she died at home. Ambulance workers had told her family that there was no room in the hospitals.
"All the beds are full," they told the family, according to her daughter-in-law, Romina Mologni, 34. Since she was 75, she said, "they gave priority to others who were younger." In her last weeks at home, her family struggled to find tanks of oxygen, driving all over the province as she sat facing her garden and the pinwheels she adored. When she died, all the flower shops were closed because of the lockdown. Ms. Mologni instead brought to the cemetery one of the pinwheels her own daughter had given her grandmother. "She liked that one."
QuoteI am not going to comment on the airborne pathology, but I will say to be careful with the media and what they peddle as facts.
Most likely route of transmission is contact. Someone sneezes in his hand and pushes an elevator button. You come by later and hit the button.
A moslem wipes his butt with his left hand, then holds onto a railing, which you touch later.
That's how it is transmitted. Social distancing doesn't work unless someone is sneezing or coughing all over the place.
QuoteThey can not "confirm" something for which there is no accurate test.
But you CAN confirm: hospital ship docked at NYC, MASH units set up, convention centers turned into clinics, and hospitals filled up with old people who can't breathe running fever and requiring ventilators.
Just read this comment on Zerohedge in an article about Italy and deaths from the "virus". Couldn't come close to expressing my sentiments this well. For context the writer is talking about a peak in cases. This is so sad.
QuoteI heard from the wife of an ER doctor in Boston that they expect this weekend to be THE weekend. Where they are overwhelmed.
She said that last week about last weekend.
I told her. Well I hope that 10k people come into the ER and die on the floor, because unless that is the case, every doctor can go **** themselves.
We had to furlough 225 people today who all need to apply for unemployment. There is a very good chance we never open again. So unless thousands of people start dying in the street, everyone connected to this thing needs to be hung from a lamppost.
I want to see death and destruction. Millions suffocating. Because otherwise, this entire shelter in place thing is ********.
The UK is in lockdown due to the coronavirus and yet according to this report from Public Health England, excess deaths are not happening. The media if full of scary headlines and tearful personal testimony and yet the actual figures show that people in England and Wales are dying at the same rate as they usually do.
Quote
All-Cause Mortality Surveillance 26 March 2020 – Week 13 report (up to week 12 data)
In week 12 2020, no statistically significant excess all-cause mortality by week of death was observed overall in England, through the EuroMOMO algorithm. In the devolved administrations, no statistically significant excess all-cause mortality for all ages was observed for Northern Ireland and Wales in week 12 and for Scotland in week 10 2020.
• Seasonal mortality is seen each year in England and Wales, with a higher number of deaths in winter months compared to the summer. Additionally, peaks of mortality above this expected higher level typically occur in winter, most commonly the result of factors such as cold snaps and increased circulation of respiratory viruses, in particular influenza and in summer occasionally as a result of heat-waves.
• Immunisation & countermeasures division's weekly mortality surveillance aims to detect and report acute significant weekly excess mortality above normal seasonal levels in a timely fashion. Excess mortality is defined as a significant number of deaths reported over that expected for a given point in the year, allowing for weekly variation in the number of deaths. This triggers further investigation of spikes and informs any public health responses.
• The aim is not to assess general mortality trends or precisely estimate the excess attributable to different factors, although some end-of-winter estimates and more in-depth analyses (by age, geography etc.) are undertaken.
• Separate to the calculations presented in this report, excess winter deaths (EWD), comparing the number of deaths in the winter period compared to the non-winter period, are calculated by ONS and presented in an atlas down to local authority level.
All-cause death registrations (ONS), England and Wales - In week 11 2020, an estimated 11,019 all-cause deaths were registered in England and Wales (source: Office for National Statistics). This is an increase compared to the 10,895 estimated death registrations in week 10 2020.
Excess all-cause (EuroMOMO) mortality in subpopulations, UK - In week 12 2020 in England, no statistically significant excess mortality by week of death above the upper 2 z-score threshold was seen overall, by age group or sub nationally (all ages) after correcting ONS disaggregate data for reporting delay with the standardised EuroMOMO algorithm (Figure 1). This data is provisional due to the time delay in registration; numbers may vary from week to week.
- In the devolved administrations, no statistically significant excess all cause mortality for all ages was observed for Northern Ireland and Wales in week 12 and for Scotland in week 10 2020 (Table 2).
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/876005/Weekly_all_cause_mortality_surveillance_week_13_2020_report.pdf
It seems that there are two schools of medical opinion here.
One school regales us with stories of overflowing ICUs, patients dying in corridors, and over-stressed and emotional health professional pleading for everyone to take the coronavirus seriously and submit to lockdown.
And the other school analyses the figures and concludes that in terms of winter flu deaths, nothing out of the ordinary is happening.
So who's right.
I am in the UK and I started to get really scared tonight. I was paralysed with fear for about 15 minutes. I instinctively wanted to go to the local church but they are all closed.
I did the second best thing I could think of. The nearest Catholic Church to me, providentially, has a Calvary on the lawn outside the church. I went and knelt on the grass in front of the Calvary next to the main road and said the 5 sorrowful mysteries.
As I looked up at the face of Christ on the cross I really felt like I was right there on Calvary. There were lifesize statues of St. John and Our Lady there too.
O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
I am going to have to leave this forum. Xavier constantly posting figures is freaking me out.
Edit: I am not worried about catching the virus, far from it. It just seems to me that this is obviously psychological warfare of some kind. The figures will keep creeping up and this will be used as a continual justification for trapping people in their homes.
My son will almost certainly lose his job next (and then I will lose mine). I have 10 children and lots of responsibilities and bills to pay. This is exactly the same playbook as global warming; can't anybody see it. They keep making chicken little pronouncements then keep pushing the deadline on and on. It's evil.
Only Jesus & Mary can help us now. I know that's always been the case but recent events have really brought it into focus.
Finally; "Social distancing". Can't anybody see what a truly orwellian evil term that is. There are orwellian signs in the local park with various edict and WARNING: corona virus on them. The childrens swings are closed!
It is dystopian indeed. In my small town of about four people the playground at the school and park are taped off. CLOSED! What the hell, man. I am not scared of what is happening beyond my control, but I am scared of my particular Judgement.
Don't leave, Clau.
I wish my little brother Greg was back on the forum. He is much better with words than me. He is also alot more generous.
Quote from: clau clau on March 27, 2020, 04:26:23 PM
I wish my little brother Greg was back on the forum. He is much better with words than me. He is also alot more generous.
Wait....are y'all actually biological brothers?
We sure are. He's Hardy and I'm Laurel.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B13QoA59tA4[/yt]
Work update. Tighter restrictions entering building. Have to wear n95 masks non stop, quite unpleasant but effective. Now told to prepare for potential 30 day+ lockdown = stay at home unpaid or live/work in facility 24/7 not leaving, no visitors. I'm considering doing it if it goes down. Preparing this weekend a bag with clothes, etc, getting to confession. Interesting time we're in.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 27, 2020, 12:47:35 PM
I don;t know where we can get reliable news and objective information but so far lewrockwell and Joe Rappaport's blog keeps me sane. Also Globalresearch.ca is pretty good.
Do you have a link to Joe Rappaport's blog Martin?
Quote from: mikemac on March 27, 2020, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 27, 2020, 12:47:35 PM
I don;t know where we can get reliable news and objective information but so far lewrockwell and Joe Rappaport's blog keeps me sane. Also Globalresearch.ca is pretty good.
Do you have a link to Joe Rappaport's blog Martin?
https://nomorefakenews.com/ :toth:
QuoteOne school regales us with stories of overflowing ICUs, patients dying in corridors, and over-stressed and emotional health professional pleading for everyone to take the coronavirus seriously and submit to lockdown.
And the other school analyses the figures and concludes that in terms of winter flu deaths, nothing out of the ordinary is happening.
Binary thinking.
Another option: Very contagious virus that is lethal to old people, but mild for everyone else. IF we choose this option, what would we expect to see in NYC?
I'd expect to see the hospitals at over capacity with MASH units set up and a hospital ship en route. I'd also notice that 95% of the people in critical condition are over 60.
USA: 102,500 Deaths: 1607. Darn, already took out 1500. Doubling time is therefore less than 4 days. This means if we are at 2000 by Sunday, the next Sunday will be 8000. The following Sunday 32,000. And so on until most people have anti-bodies and you can't spread it anymore.
Italy: 86,500 Deaths: 9,134. Jumped up.
Hopefully we start seeing good results with the chloroquin and we can get back to work. We are heading to the great depression.
Markets had a pull back today. I think we get one more push higher, maybe to 2800, then a target of around 1800. With the Fed now showing up big, low confidence in that prediction.
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 45: Sharing Ventilators, More on Sleep, Immunity, & COVID-19 Prevention
The state of New York has approved the use of one ventilator for multiple patients during a surge or crisis. Dr. Seheult discusses some of the implications and challenges of this practice. Dr. Seheult also builds upon the research he explained in Update 16 (https://youtu.be/qqZYEgREuZ8) and Update 17 (https://youtu.be/wlbM6VVkVZM) about important connections between sleep and immunity.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1zsE9_85i4[/yt]
So at what level of prepping should we be at now? Start storing gasoline? 50 gallon drums of water?
Or is just light prep prudent at this moment? ie filling the pantry.
Quote from: christulsa on March 27, 2020, 08:38:31 PM
So at what level of prepping should we be at now? Start storing gasoline? 50 gallon drums of water?
Or is just light prep prudent at this moment? ie filling the pantry.
If you have to drive the car everyday to work, it might be prudent to store some gas. It's not strictly necessary but it wouldn't hurt either. There's no prediction so far that the supply lines will break.
As far as filling the pantry, yes. Plan your shopping ahead and make sure you will only need to restock major items, like meat and fish, ideally once per two weeks until the end of the lock-down. That should be by the end of April, beginning of May, if everything goes well. Reassess things every week or so. Stay strong, stay calm and stay positive. Leave the rest to God.
yes we should leave it to God. Here are two good sermons on the subject matter:
http://reginaprophetarum.org/audio/20200319-the-Divine-Interdict.mp3.mp3
http://reginaprophetarum.org/audio/20200322-Coronavirus-and-the-Weapon-of-Prayer.mp3
Our government has put in further restrictions, we are now not supposed to go further than 2km from our home except for absolutely essential reasons, groceries, medical or exceptional family reasons.
Supermarkets are operating one in and one out policy, with something like 7 people inside at one time. The queues to go in are exceptionally long. I queued for 45 mins other day for a diy shop.
Bonuses of lockdown.
No endless errands or appointments or school drops offs and pick ups. Before this, your day was just endless clock watching for the next task or appointment and one day blurred into the next. Since lockdown, it really feels like a full day (if that makes any sense). I am enjoying the mornings, prayer time with kids then doing an hour of school work. Then go for a family walk. Work on our veg garden etc and that's all before lunch.
Much less agitation between the kids. Still are rows but we're not as tired so we're not as antsy.
I actually get quiet time for bible reading or stations of the cross etc....before this you were squeezing in your duty between flippin tasks....always tasks...always a 'have to go to.....'
Finding out I really enjoy jigsaws, 1000 piece ones :cheesehead:
Eating food without counting calories and still losing some weight.......because I am training my family to eat less, they don't know it but I am. 3 meals a day with very little snacking in between. You don't like whats on the table then you don't eat. This is actually another bonus.....cutting out the entitlement crap (which wasn't too bad here but there are hints of it).
Going grey....I'm 47, what a perfect time to let the grey grow and no one can see you.
Anybody else have some bonuses.
Quote from: diaduit on March 28, 2020, 04:35:53 AM
Our government has put in further restrictions, we are now not supposed to go further than 2km from our home except for absolutely essential reasons, groceries, medical or exceptional family reasons.
Supermarkets are operating one in and one out policy, with something like 7 people inside at one time. The queues to go in are exceptionally long. I queued for 45 mins other day for a diy shop.
Bonuses of lockdown.
No endless errands or appointments or school drops offs and pick ups. Before this, your day was just endless clock watching for the next task or appointment and one day blurred into the next. Since lockdown, it really feels like a full day (if that makes any sense). I am enjoying the mornings, prayer time with kids then doing an hour of school work. Then go for a family walk. Work on our veg garden etc and that's all before lunch.
Much less agitation between the kids. Still are rows but we're not as tired so we're not as antsy.
I actually get quiet time for bible reading or stations of the cross etc....before this you were squeezing in your duty between flippin tasks....always tasks...always a 'have to go to.....'
Finding out I really enjoy jigsaws, 1000 piece ones :cheesehead:
Eating food without counting calories and still losing some weight.......because I am training my family to eat less, they don't know it but I am. 3 meals a day with very little snacking in between. You don't like whats on the table then you don't eat. This is actually another bonus.....cutting out the entitlement crap (which wasn't too bad here but there are hints of it).
Going grey....I'm 47, what a perfect time to let the grey grow and no one can see you.
Anybody else have some bonuses.
With the libraries closed there's no rush to get the books back on time.
Taxes delayed for 3 months. ;D
QuoteSo at what level of prepping should we be at now? Start storing gasoline? 50 gallon drums of water?
Or is just light prep prudent at this moment? ie filling the pantry.
Light prep. Data from the US shows this not to be a zombie apocalypse type virus, statistically it only harms old people. The threat is economic. However, water and fuel are considered critical. Tulsa especially is in great shape as you have multiple refined products pipelines running through it and are surrounded by refineries, including two in the city. Fuel is not a concern.
Keep the pantry full because of the quarantine threat. Since you are in the medical trade, you might test positive, in which case they'll make you quarantine for 14 days. So imagine being stuck in your house for 14 days and what you would need to keep it from being a major pain in your arse. Since you have discovered Atkins, remember to use your freezer. But also think about some hobbies or reading material to pass the time.
Quote from: james03 on March 28, 2020, 08:39:47 AM
QuoteSo at what level of prepping should we be at now? Start storing gasoline? 50 gallon drums of water?
Or is just light prep prudent at this moment? ie filling the pantry.
Light prep. Data from the US shows this not to be a zombie apocalypse type virus, statistically it only harms old people. The threat is economic. However, water and fuel are considered critical. Tulsa especially is in great shape as you have multiple refined products pipelines running through it and are surrounded by refineries, including two in the city. Fuel is not a concern.
Keep the pantry full because of the quarantine threat. Since you are in the medical trade, you might test positive, in which case they'll make you quarantine for 14 days. So imagine being stuck in your house for 14 days and what you would need to keep it from being a major pain in your arse. Since you have discovered Atkins, remember to use your freezer. But also think about some hobbies or reading material to pass the time.
If you, unlike me, don't have a home gym, this can work. Imagine doing it everyday for a month with proper meat eating: 10 pushups, rest a minute. 10 pushups, rest a minute. Do this for 10 minutes. Switch to sit ups. Then squats. Repeat cycle. Fill up milk gallon jug wit water. Do hammer curls for 30 seconds. Alternate arms for three minutes. For weighted squats, have wife hang on your back or sit on shoulders. Careful head doesn't go through ceiling. For deadlifting have wife lie on side on the floor, cup hand under knee and other hand cup under arm pit(one closest to floor). Perform lift to failure. Again, be careful. Work on grip strength so as not to drop.
https://fromrome.info/2020/03/27/new-england-journal-of-medicine-covid-19-may-be-no-more-lethal-than-the-common-winter-flu/
QuoteNew England Journal of Medicine: COVID-19 may be no more lethal than the common winter flu
March 27, 2020 From Rome Editor 3 Comments
by Br. Alexis Bugnolo
The medical experts are rallying against the Hype and affirming the COVID-19 is not a dangerous pandemic as the World Health Organization and every group funded by The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has been asserting.
The latest confirmation of this is a paper published yesterday in the prestigious medical journal, The New England Journal of Medicine, by Drs. Antony S. Fauci, H. Clifford Lane and Robert R. Redfield, entitled, COVID-19 — Navigating the Uncharted.
Dr. Fauci is not a nobody in the study of infectious diseases. Since 1984 he has been the director of the United States' National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and was recently dubbed by the New York Times as "the leading expert on infectious diseases".
Here is what Dr. Fauci et alia write in their summation:
On the basis of a case definition requiring a diagnosis of pneumonia, the currently reported case fatality rate is approximately 2%.4 In another article in the Journal, Guan et al.5 report mortality of 1.4% among 1099 patients with laboratory-confirmed Covid-19; these patients had a wide spectrum of disease severity. If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968) rather than a disease similar to SARS or MERS, which have had case fatality rates of 9 to 10% and 36%, respectively.2
By the phrase, "a case study requiring a diagnosis of pneumonia", they mean to say they have studied only those claimed victims of coronavirus who were diagnosed with pneumonia, that is, an infection of the lungs. They did this to rigorously exclude false positives, wherein a death would be claimed, but without serious symptoms of coronavirus infection.
Their reference to asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic, refers to those who tested positive for coronavirus but who shows no or nearly no symptoms of infection.
The conclusion of these experts is something that cannot be denied by all rational men. It is the ultimate vaccination against Corona Hype and Sentimental Derangement Syndrome which results from it when those infected are in the presence of a Corona Hype Denier.
FromRome.Info is grateful that one of the top experts has confirmed for our readers the validity of our editorial position on the Wuhan Virus' much reduced lethality.
The National Institute, which Dr. Fauci oversees, is an entity of the U.S. Government and is not controlled by The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. That might explain why they have a different view of reality.
You can read the full paper by Doctors Fauci et alia, at the New England Journal of Medicine's Website.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFS4BjRqEWY[/yt]
More 889 deaths in the last 24 hours in Italy. They have already surpassed the 10 thousand death threshold.
Spain has also reported 832 deaths since yesterday, their record number for a single day since the beginning of this pandemic.
There's a slight decrease in the number of reported cases and deaths in Italy but it's still too early to make any projections with confidence. In Spain the numbers keep piling up.
Some U.S. Cities Could Have Coronavirus Outbreaks Worse Than Wuhan's
"If the rate of growth in coronavirus cases in the New York metro area continues, it will suffer a more severe outbreak than those experienced in Wuhan, China, or the Lombardy region of Italy.
There is no guarantee, of course, that current trends will continue. What has happened to this point can't be used to predict what will happen next. It is possible that social distancing will soon slow or arrest the growth of cases.
Here are four ways to measure the size of the outbreak across the country's metro areas.
1. How Bad Is It Now? Cases Per 1,000 People [see the chart provided in the article]
2. How Bad Is It Now? Deaths Per 1,000 People [see all examples]
3. How Bad Could It Get? Growth Rates Over Time [compare lines on graph]
4 How Bad Could It Get? Growth Rates by Case Count [compare lines on graph]"
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/27/upshot/coronavirus-new-york-comparison.html
IOW, the bottom line: New York Metro is the one U.S. area that is most concerning, followed by possibly Detroit and New Orleans, depending on whether the latter two are able to contain growth by various measures.
Look at the maps. It is not a cause for extreme alarm in the entire country, including even in the so-called (previous) "hot spots," because the rate of growth there, combined with cases per population, is not "exploding" but has already begun to flatten.
https://www.catholicamericanthinker.com/Deaths.html
QuoteDeaths and Death Rates, Politicized Versus Real
Why the panic over Coronavirus deaths? It's an Opportune Crisis of Political Value.
Vic Biorseth, Saturday, March 28, 2020
https://www.CatholicAmericanThinker.com/
I'm telling you, this whole thing is being politically hyped to wreck America and the Trump Presidency. We have talked about perspective; let's broaden it just for the sake of comparative causes of deaths in the world so far this year.
Causes
Coronavirus 28,240
Seasonal Flu 116,275
Malaria 234,614
Communicable Diseases 3,105,082
Abortion 10,166,497
Suicide 256,535
Traffic Accidents 322,935
Cancer 1,964,790
People die. That's one of the things all people do.
Vortex Video Report
Stop and think a minute about how it came to be such an important thing that not so much as one more person should die from Covid-19 infection, even at the cost of human liberty, the global economy and the Trump Presidency.
But, all the Marxocrats, all the Fake News, all the Never Trumpers, all the Globalists, and all the unconstitutional bureaucracy bureaucrats and Shadow-Government Swamp Rats will say, the numbers are threatening to go up, and we've got to stop it before it goes the way of the Spanish Flu!
So what? All the other numbers are going up, too, and going up at a greater rate than the Coronavirus. Someone is dying of flu right now. This minute, someone will die from some other infectious disease.
And someone will be aborted, too.
It would be a good bet that, at the end of the year, all the causes listed above who's current death rates exceed the current death rate of the Coronavirus will still exceed that death rate, by the same or greater margin than now.
Why are none of these greater causes of massive human fatality worthy of shutting down all commerce, all private enterprise, all non-government employment, all freedom and liberty and all normal life in America if not the world?
All of them are killing more people than Coronavirus.
Think about it.
The only thing Truth has going for Him in this world is us.
The restoration of Truth = Reality in the hearts and minds of men is now totally dependent upon you and me; if we don't do it, it won't get done.
Print, sign and send The Letter, and make our Church Catholic again.
Get behind President Trump, and make America Constitutional again.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/rhode-island-hunting-down-new-yorkers-seeking-coronavirus-refuge
https://bangordailynews.com/2020/03/28/news/midcoast/report-men-with-guns-cut-down-tree-block-driveway-to-quarantine-vinalhaven-residents/
Quote from: red solo cup on March 29, 2020, 03:26:29 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/rhode-island-hunting-down-new-yorkers-seeking-coronavirus-refuge
https://bangordailynews.com/2020/03/28/news/midcoast/report-men-with-guns-cut-down-tree-block-driveway-to-quarantine-vinalhaven-residents/
Life becomes like an episode of The Twilight Zone.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_Street (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_Street)
Alexander Tschugguel is out of the hospital but still recuperating from the virus. He has a video up with Dr. Marshall discussing the pain and the ongoing pneumonia. Also he notes that the hospital was filled with people of all ages starting from teens and up.
Matt Fradd also has a video up discussing horrible chest pains and that he's likely caught the virus. Went to ER. Looks great in video though.
Both are young healthy men (mid 20s and late 30s?).
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/italy-becoming-impatient-with-lockdown-and-social-unrest-is-brewing/ar-BB11Rr4j?ocid=spartanntp
The Italians are getting antsy.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 28, 2020, 07:50:22 PM
https://www.catholicamericanthinker.com/Deaths.html
QuoteDeaths and Death Rates, Politicized Versus Real
Why the panic over Coronavirus deaths? It's an Opportune Crisis of Political Value.
Vic Biorseth, Saturday, March 28, 2020
https://www.CatholicAmericanThinker.com/
I'm telling you, this whole thing is being politically hyped to wreck America and the Trump Presidency. We have talked about perspective; let's broaden it just for the sake of comparative causes of deaths in the world so far this year.
Causes
Coronavirus 28,240
Seasonal Flu 116,275
Malaria 234,614
Communicable Diseases 3,105,082
Abortion 10,166,497
Suicide 256,535
Traffic Accidents 322,935
Cancer 1,964,790
People die. That's one of the things all people do.
Vortex Video Report
Stop and think a minute about how it came to be such an important thing that not so much as one more person should die from Covid-19 infection, even at the cost of human liberty, the global economy and the Trump Presidency.
But, all the Marxocrats, all the Fake News, all the Never Trumpers, all the Globalists, and all the unconstitutional bureaucracy bureaucrats and Shadow-Government Swamp Rats will say, the numbers are threatening to go up, and we've got to stop it before it goes the way of the Spanish Flu!
So what? All the other numbers are going up, too, and going up at a greater rate than the Coronavirus. Someone is dying of flu right now. This minute, someone will die from some other infectious disease.
And someone will be aborted, too.
It would be a good bet that, at the end of the year, all the causes listed above who's current death rates exceed the current death rate of the Coronavirus will still exceed that death rate, by the same or greater margin than now.
Why are none of these greater causes of massive human fatality worthy of shutting down all commerce, all private enterprise, all non-government employment, all freedom and liberty and all normal life in America if not the world?
All of them are killing more people than Coronavirus.
Think about it.
The only thing Truth has going for Him in this world is us.
The restoration of Truth = Reality in the hearts and minds of men is now totally dependent upon you and me; if we don't do it, it won't get done.
Print, sign and send The Letter, and make our Church Catholic again.
Get behind President Trump, and make America Constitutional again.
A very poor article. There is no question that the Democrats will try to capitalize on coronavirus to undermine Trump's chances for re-election, but the argument with death numbers is just dumb, for two reasons:
1) The number of deaths is much higher than the official 31.000 (probably in six figures), since we know that the deathtoll in China and Iran is much higher than official numbers. Also Italy reports that many people die at home from coronavirus and are not included in statistics since they are not tested post-mortem.
2) Focusing on current numbers does not consider exponential growth. In coutries like UK, USA or France we are only at the beginning, and due to exponential growth the numbers are likely to go into hundreds of thousands infected and tens of thousands dead. Many epidemiologists estimate that if the epidemic is not slowed down 25-70% of human population is likely to be infected, in which case the number of casualities will go into millions.
Yes, here's a video from February, with those who work in cremating bodies in China saying the death toll was already at least 15-20 times higher than was reported. This should have been made more widely known: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYYV1B1lRKY&t=24s
In that light, that January article saying, "So what is the body count here? Twenty-six as I write this; so far as I can gather, all of them in China, all or most in or near the central city of Wuhan. Twenty-six dead? ... twenty-six? In Communist China?" and trying to minimize it, now clearly appears absurd. 26 in 1 country has grown to 30,000 in 200 countries in 2 months. At the same rate of growth, it would touch 35 million in another two months. We can't allow that. Hence the safety measures.
The good news is, there have been some reliable reports from Beijing that people are now slowly getting back to normal life. So it seems a temporary lockdown could be successful in averting catastrophe, and gradually after the spread has been stopped, things can get back to usual. Some reports claim choloroquine or some drugs are being administered: "The capital city of Beijing, where I am based, brought in a series of measures to try and curb the spread which, ultimately, proved to be effective. Temperature checks were mandatory at housing compounds, malls and office blocks, people stopped mingling altogether, everyone wore masks, schools were closed indefinitely, bars and restaurants were bereft of customers, the normally traffic-clogged streets were free of cars, trucks and buses. The extreme measures have halted the spread, for now at least.
After six weeks of draconian lock-down, life is gradually beginning to return to normal: shops are open, with a smattering of customers, restaurants and bars are operating, albeit with a rule that specifies no more than three people per table, carefully distanced from each other.
In short, there is a semblance of the big-city vibe once more, but also a feeling that the very fabric of life has changed. Here in China, we feel we are coming out of the nightmare, but gradually and hesitantly; there is no celebratory mood, just one of relief and gratitude that we are alive and healthy." https://www.vogue.com/article/beijing-coronavirus-return-to-normal
Even Fox News has caught on. There were 5000 urns in the city of Wuhan alone in just two days. That number alone exceeds the reported death toll of 3300 for all of China combined: https://www.foxnews.com/world/urn-deliveries-wuhan-china-coronavirus-death-toll
"Massive deliveries of urns in Wuhan have raised fresh skepticism of China's coronavirus reporting.
As families in the central Chinese city began picking up the cremated ashes of those who have died from the virus this week, photos began circulating on social media and local media outlets showing vast numbers of urns at Wuhan funeral homes.
China has reported 3,299 coronavirus-related deaths, with most taking place in Wuhan, the epicenter of the global pandemic. But one funeral home received two shipments of 5,000 urns over the course of two days, according to the Chinese media outlet Caixin."
In Italy they've had 756 deaths in the last 24 hours. Still bad but it seems to be slowing down.
In Spain they've had 838 deaths in the last 24 hours. Still rising.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 29, 2020, 01:14:45 PM
In Italy they've had 756 deaths in the last 24 hours. Still bad but it seems to be slowing down.
In Spain they've had 838 deaths in the last 24 hours. Still rising.
It is too early to say for Italy. Amount of daily deaths slowed down the beginning of last week, then went up again significantly toward the end of the week. I would wait for at least a full solid week of declining death rate, before predicting a true slow down.
USA: 139,000 cases, 2445 deaths. USA is definitely exponential and I have to reduce the doubling time. So the prediction for next Sunday is 9,600 deaths.
Italy: 97,700 cases, 10,779 deaths. I have to increase their doubling time. I'm going with 8 days, giving us 19,500 dead by next Sunday. They almost look linear at this point, with around 700 deaths per day. If this holds til next Sunday, they've peaked.
Quote from: Antoninus on March 29, 2020, 02:01:27 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 29, 2020, 01:14:45 PM
In Italy they've had 756 deaths in the last 24 hours. Still bad but it seems to be slowing down.
In Spain they've had 838 deaths in the last 24 hours. Still rising.
It is too early to say for Italy. Amount of daily deaths slowed down the beginning of last week, then went up again significantly toward the end of the week. I would wait for at least a full solid week of declining death rate, before predicting a true slow down.
Yes. We need at least a week of declining rates, I agree.
Quote from: james03 on March 29, 2020, 03:02:44 PM
USA: 139,000 cases, 2445 deaths. USA is definitely exponential and I have to reduce the doubling time. So the prediction for next Sunday is 9,600 deaths.
Italy: 97,700 cases, 10,779 deaths. I have to increase their doubling time. I'm going with 8 days, giving us 19,500 dead by next Sunday. They almost look linear at this point, with around 700 deaths per day. If this holds til next Sunday, they've peaked.
Are these on par with the #1 cause of death in the US? Or the regular flu or the H1N1(Swine) Flu?
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238706
[yt]https://youtu.be/ksME4oSRHTY[/yt]
TLDR; majority Fecal/Oral transmission coming from the hospital.
COVID-19: Fighting a Pandemic
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/5001289/?cid=wohk-fb-org_vod_corona_nd-202003-001 (https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/5001289/?cid=wohk-fb-org_vod_corona_nd-202003-001)
In just over 3 months, the new coronavirus has spread around the world, killing thousands and paralyzing the global economy. Case studies into cluster infections in Japan offer some clues into how the pandemic began. NHK brings you reports from the frontlines of the fight against the coronavirus, around the world and in the lab as scientists race to develop effective drug treatments. We talk to experts in the studio about how long this battle will last.
I find this video to be interesting. He takes a new look at how to chart COVID in different countries.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54XLXg4fYsc[/yt]
Trump said keeping US deaths under 100,000 would be a very good job. He said the death figure would be 2.2 million under "do-nothing". 2.2 million is simply terrible. 100,000 is also steep, but far, far less. If the final figure is 100,000 in the US, it may be much higher in countries like Italy suffering much more currently. The current ratio of US deaths:Italian deaths is almost 1:5, so in that case it would be around 500,000 deaths in Italy.
"Trump cited projection models that said potentially 2.2 million people or more could have died had the country tried to "wing it" and not put social distancing measures in place. "I kept asking and we did models," he said. "These are 2.2 million people would have died.
"And so, if we could hold that down, as we're saying, to 100,000 – it's a horrible number, maybe even less, but to 100,000, so we have between 100 [thousand] and 200,000 – we altogether have done a very good job." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/trump-says-keeping-us-covid-19-deaths-to-100000-would-be-a-very-good-job
Anyway, as on 30th March, we have Cases: 730,000. Deaths:[/b] 35,000. Case Fatality Rate or Death Rate per Case, CFR or DRC: 4.8%
There have been some reports that theaflavin can act as an inhibitor against the coronavirus. Theaflavin is found in Tea.
"SARS-CoV is the causative agent of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). The virally encoded 3C-like protease (3CLPro) has been presumed critical for the viral replication of SARS-CoV in infected host cells. In this study, we screened a natural product library consisting of 720 compounds for inhibitory activity against 3CLPro. Two compounds in the library were found to be inhibitive: tannic acid (IC50 = 3 µM) and 3-isotheaflavin-3-gallate (TF2B) (IC50 = 7 µM). These two compounds belong to a group of natural polyphenols found in tea.
We further investigated the 3CLPro-inhibitory activity of extracts from several different types of teas, including green tea, oolong tea, Puer tea and black tea. Our results indicated that extracts from Puer and black tea were more potent than that from green or oolong teas in their inhibitory activities against 3CLPro" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1142193/
"A chemical compound prevalent in tea might be able to inhibit the proliferation of the coronavirus (COVID-19) in the human body, according to the latest findings of a Taiwanese hospital.
The theaflavin extracted from locally grown Taiwanese tea may be an inhibitor for the coronavirus ... Among the various types of tea in Taiwan, fermented tea contains even more theaflavin, he said.
The findings were published by the Journal of Medical Virology on March 22." https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3904272
Found these news articles about civilians losing it:
1. Elderly woman beaten to death for not "social distancing:" https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/brooklyn-woman-86-dies-after-shes-knocked-to-the-ground-by-stranger-for-violating-coronavirus-social-distancing-police-sources/ar-BB11Scct?li=BBnb7Kz (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/brooklyn-woman-86-dies-after-shes-knocked-to-the-ground-by-stranger-for-violating-coronavirus-social-distancing-police-sources/ar-BB11Scct?li=BBnb7Kz)
2. Armed vigilante group harassing their neighbors: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/brooklyn-woman-86-dies-after-shes-knocked-to-the-ground-by-stranger-for-violating-coronavirus-social-distancing-police-sources/ar-BB11Scct?li=BBnb7Kz (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/brooklyn-woman-86-dies-after-shes-knocked-to-the-ground-by-stranger-for-violating-coronavirus-social-distancing-police-sources/ar-BB11Scct?li=BBnb7Kz)
Now I have no idea how much truth there is to the second story (and there may be more to it than we know about) but the first one about the elderly woman being slugged to death is horrible. Sounds clearly like a homicide. This is how we treat our elderly, quite a bit of age discrimination.
It's only going to get worse. Armed vigilantes soon may be patrolling your streets and breaking into your homes! "Social distancing," just an excuse for tyrannical control, social manipulation, and encouragement of violence. Who will care at this point?
Finally, more people are realizing the true death toll in Wuhan has been seriously under-reported by China for days.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/30/estimates-show-wuhan-death-rate-far-higher-than-chinas-official-reports/
"New estimates released this week from Radio Free Asia, a U.S.-government funded nonprofit, reveal the Wuhan virus death rate in the Chinese city to be far higher than China's official numbers.
Looking at cremations conducted by area funeral homes, Radio Free Asia estimates the true death toll from the virus to be 46,800 in the city home to the outbreak's origin. China, however, is reporting the total death rate at 2,500. That's far less than the 5,000 urns recently sent to one Wuhan funeral home, according to the Chinese news outlet Ciaxin.
Meanwhile, China has begun to lift lockdowns, claiming cases in the East Asian giant are on a steep decline with only more than 3,100 deaths nationwide."
Quote from: The Curt Jester on March 29, 2020, 07:43:49 PM
I find this video to be interesting. He takes a new look at how to chart COVID in different countries.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54XLXg4fYsc[/yt]
Got to love all these geniuses comparing case number data for countries in the absence of international conventions on operationally defining what constitutes a "case". This is pseudoscientific quackery, what's called garbage in, garbage out.
Quote from: Xavier on March 30, 2020, 08:12:56 AM
Looking at cremations conducted by area funeral homes, Radio Free Asia estimates the true death toll from the virus to be 46,800 in the city home to the outbreak's origin. China, however, is reporting the total death rate at 2,500. That's far less than the 5,000 urns recently sent to one Wuhan funeral home, according to the Chinese news outlet Ciaxin.
Now "cases" of COVID-19 are being "diagnosed" by looking at urns at a funeral home. Stop it, you clowns.
[quote author=Xavier link=topic=23282.msg496348#msg496348 date=1585318106
Heh. Your claims are almost exactly wrong. I was the first person on this thread to mention chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine and their prophylactic potential. I also computed the percentage of cases to deaths many pages back. Go back and read if you want to verify that[/quote]
Now he's telling you take toxic, hypoglycemia-inducing chemicals.
QuoteSome of you naysayers were also claiming the whole thing would end before there were even 20,000 deaths. Well, that's demonstrably falsified now. It's obvious that some of you are in denial; and will continue to be such for a few more days at least, evidently. It's fine.
No it's not, as case numbers are
demonstrably a construct without scientific basis tying them to cause of death, just as the "pandemic" itself is a function of the operational definition of "case". This is what happened with SARS, in which the conditions defining a "case" in North America, which required exposure to another "case", meant that by definition the "pandemic" would end by quarantining all "cases"; the pandemic went away in Asia, unsurprisingly, when they adopted this same definition. Also unsurprisingly, there was no runaway death toll when the alleged virus was swept under the rug by just not testing the general population for it.
Now, to the contrary, a "case" doesn't even require symptoms, let alone demonstrable epidemiological contact.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?blog=Market-Ticker
[yt]https://youtu.be/rjVGq8wDHCk[/yt]
Thanks, https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/30/corona-creating-the-illusion-of-a-pandemic-through-diagnostic-tests/ (https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/30/corona-creating-the-illusion-of-a-pandemic-through-diagnostic-tests/).
CDC 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel
https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download (https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download)
Quote"Detection of viral RNA may not indicate the presence of infectious virus or that 2019-nCoV is the causative agent for clinical symptoms."
Oh, looks like I was right in my claims about the science of using PCR to diagnose cases of COVID-19. What did I say? That PCR can establish neither viral infection nor cause of disease? Yes, that's exactly what I said. Yet here it is, straight from the horse's mouth. And all the muppets here just ignored me like I was talking baloney, because PCR must be a valid way to diagnose, because why else would all these medical doctors, experts that they are, be using it as such? Why? Because they are muppets too. How did I, not even having formal training in the biological sciences, know? By looking at what a PCR test is and applying principles of reasoning to it.
You can read the link for the rest.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 30, 2020, 11:34:21 AM
Thanks, https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/30/corona-creating-the-illusion-of-a-pandemic-through-diagnostic-tests/ (https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/30/corona-creating-the-illusion-of-a-pandemic-through-diagnostic-tests/).
CDC 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel
https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download (https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download)
Quote"Detection of viral RNA may not indicate the presence of infectious virus or that 2019-nCoV is the causative agent for clinical symptoms."
Oh, looks like I was right in my claims about the science of using PCR to diagnose cases of COVID-19. What did I say? That PCR can establish neither viral infection nor cause of disease? Yes, that's exactly what I said. Yet here it is, straight from the horse's mouth. And all the muppets here just ignored me like I was talking baloney, because PCR must be a valid way to diagnose, because why else would all these medical doctors, experts that they are, be using it as such? Why? Because they are muppets too. How did I, not even having formal training in the biological sciences, know? By looking at what a PCR test is and applying principles of reasoning to it.
You can read the link for the rest.
Seems biased in favor of an agenda.
The real Emergency is about perception, and that perception is caused by the fact that Americans are the most impatient people in the world, and we have a superiority complex relative to the rest of the world. (Sin of Pride)
Intolerable Emergency #1:
That there is a situation of any kind in our country not entirely in our control. (Pride)
#2:
That the "scourge" -- one of the many epithets being used -- is not being "contained" fast enough.
(Pride, Entitlement, Impatience)
#3:
That we are "leading the world" in something actually negative. (Pride)
#4:
That technology is not taking care of everything perfectly, or with perfect speed, or even adequately. (Faith in technology > faith in God)
I'm not mocking the tragedies occurring and the disparate situations in different ER's. Just keep in mind that some are extreme and scary, some are not. But again, that's the point. The fact that not everything is perfect is always "an emergency" in the U.S. A state of imperfection is intolerable and an emergency to the MSM. This would be true even it could be scientifically determined that absolutely no one had died *from* Covid per se. Merely coming to the edge of dying would not be tolerated and would be seen as just as much of an emergency.
The First World measures happiness by perceived competence within an industrialized context, and that competence is also defined as control.
Quote from: Heinrich on March 30, 2020, 11:44:28 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 30, 2020, 11:34:21 AM
Thanks, https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/30/corona-creating-the-illusion-of-a-pandemic-through-diagnostic-tests/ (https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/30/corona-creating-the-illusion-of-a-pandemic-through-diagnostic-tests/).
CDC 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel
https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download (https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download)
Quote"Detection of viral RNA may not indicate the presence of infectious virus or that 2019-nCoV is the causative agent for clinical symptoms."
Oh, looks like I was right in my claims about the science of using PCR to diagnose cases of COVID-19. What did I say? That PCR can establish neither viral infection nor cause of disease? Yes, that's exactly what I said. Yet here it is, straight from the horse's mouth. And all the muppets here just ignored me like I was talking baloney, because PCR must be a valid way to diagnose, because why else would all these medical doctors, experts that they are, be using it as such? Why? Because they are muppets too. How did I, not even having formal training in the biological sciences, know? By looking at what a PCR test is and applying principles of reasoning to it.
You can read the link for the rest.
Seems biased in favor of an agenda.
The statements undermining PCR testing come directly from the establishment pushing the actual agenda.
Quote from: Miriam_M on March 30, 2020, 12:52:50 PM
The real Emergency is about perception, and that perception is caused by the fact that Americans are the most impatient people in the world, and we have a superiority complex relative to the rest of the world. (Sin of Pride)
Intolerable Emergency #1:
That there is a situation of any kind in our country not entirely in our control. (Pride)
#2:
That the "scourge" -- one of the many epithets being used -- is not being "contained" fast enough.
(Pride, Entitlement, Impatience)
#3:
That we are "leading the world" in something actually negative. (Pride)
#4:
That technology is not taking care of everything perfectly, or with perfect speed, or even adequately. (Faith in technology > faith in God)
I'm not mocking the tragedies occurring and the disparate situations in different ER's. Just keep in mind that some are extreme and scary, some are not. But again, that's the point. The fact that not everything is perfect is always "an emergency" in the U.S. A state of imperfection is intolerable and an emergency to the MSM. This would be true even it could be scientifically determined that absolutely no one had died *from* Covid per se. Merely coming to the edge of dying would not be tolerated and would be seen as just as much of an emergency.
The First World measures happiness by perceived competence within an industrialized context, and that competence is also defined as control.
True, though your last two points hit quite directly at what's going on here: establishing a global religion of science and world technocracy. Next come increased AI and automation, working remotely over computer networks, universal basic income, abolition of physical cash, etc.
And 5G coincidentally arrived just in time.
Dr. Fauci, the main advisor to Trump heading the response to the so-called "pandemic":
On the basis of a case definition requiring a diagnosis of pneumonia, the currently reported case fatality rate is approximately 2%.4 In another article in the Journal, Guan et al.5 report mortality of 1.4% among 1099 patients with laboratory-confirmed Covid-19; these patients had a wide spectrum of disease severity. If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968) rather than a disease similar to SARS or MERS, which have had case fatality rates of 9 to 10% and 36%, respectively.2
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387
So after all that, it really might just be a bad flu.
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
Infectious disease specialist disagrees with U.S. approach to coronavirusQuote "One in five Americans live in parts of the country that are under stay-at-home orders.
UCLA School of Medicine Doctor Jeffrey Klausner appeared on Saturday's Mornings on 2, and said that the U.S. is actually doing "too much" in connection to COVID-19.
Klausner spent more than a decade at the San Francisco Department of Public Health.
He said the U.S. can pivot and take a different approach, and not shut down the economy.
He recommended that schools and businesses reopen across the nation.
Klausner prefers a more localized approach, in which the hardest hit areas would take extreme measures, like shelter-in-place, rather than the entire country take what he called a "hammer" approach."
"He said that the U.S. can follow several Asian countries, such as Taiwan, Singapore and Japan, that have controlled the epidemic.
Even though, Italy announced 793 deaths and 6,557 new cases on Saturday alone, Klausner said these cases were centered in the northern part of the country, and that other locales, such as Rome and Naples have been able to escape the brunt of the outbreak.
Klausner understands that his point of view may be not be popular or shared by other infectious disease specialists, but he says a top scientist at Stanford, as well as Yale agree with him."
https://www.ktvu.com/news/infectious-disease-specialist-disagrees-with-u-s-approach-against-coronavirus
[A minority of voices, including mine, have suggested the bolded, but apparently no one's listening, preferring instead to punish an entire nation. Again, in that case, shut down the nation every year for everything contagious: flu, cold, what have you.]
The die is cast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alea_iacta_est
(https://www.clba.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Caesar-1080x675.jpg)
What are officials labelling cause of death on death certificates, is it pneumonia? or something else?
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
Presenting averages without higher moments of the mean and error estimates, knowing nothing about the distribution, are obfuscating reality. Especially so when you're looking at a period of a mere week and comparing with an unspecified number of "previous years" for variable populations. What is the total for Spain? How have city populations changed over the years considered in the calculation?
We're also approaching a grand solar minimum, with Antarctica recording its lowest March temperatures on record. It's late spring and I'm freezing in my flat in London. Nobody is evening bothering to look at factors that might be contributing toward increased deaths outside of a hypothetical - and its existence is hypothetical since it has
never been purified - virus.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/660254/pneumonia-deaths-ireland/
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/
Kreuz
As Ireland is starting into our week of 'peak' infection, would any of the links above give you an idea if we are up or down or the same on numbers for deaths. I'm no good to read statistics and I apologise if my links are no good but genuinely I am very curious about his.
I gave the pneumonia figures as this is what the established media are saying the people are dying from.
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
Can you explain this, or can anyone, because I'm confused?
It seems there was already a serious winter flu outbreak in Spain - before the coronavirus arrived. Note the date of the article - January 11, 2020.
This earlier flu outbreak was due to a different virus - A (H1N1) pdm09 - not Covid 19.
Could an earlier, serious winter flu outbreak be being confused with Covid 19?
Quote
Spain: Flu epidemic wave of the 2019-2020 season has officially begun
by News Desk
January 11, 2020
The Carlos III Health Institute in Madrid said this week the flu epidemic wave of the 2019-2020 season has officially begun, according to the disease transmissibility levels.
According to the latest weekly report of the Influenza Surveillance System in Spain, the flu season is characterized by a predominant circulation of the virus called A (H1N1) pdm09.
The year 2020 has begun in Spain with a global rate of incidence of influenza that is increasing, reaching 54.6 cases per 100,000 inhabitants according to the latest data. Of the detections notified from the beginning of the 2019-2020 season so far, 55.5% are type A -80% of virus A (H1N1) pdm09- and 44.5% are type B.
The report also notes that, of the confirmed serious hospitalized cases of influenza reported so far, 91% are influenza A viruses. 44% have registered in the group over 64 years old, while 30% appear in the group of 45 to 64 years (30%).
http://outbreaknewstoday.com/spain-flu-epidemic-wave-of-the-2019-2020-season-has-officially-begun-33028/
And why the lockdown for the coronavirus and not the already serious flu outbreak caused by a different virus?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 30, 2020, 02:39:35 PM
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
Presenting averages without higher moments of the mean and error estimates, knowing nothing about the distribution, are obfuscating reality. Especially so when you're looking at a period of a mere week and comparing with an unspecified number of "previous years" for variable populations. What is the total for Spain? How have city populations changed over the years considered in the calculation?
We're also approaching a grand solar minimum, with Antarctica recording its lowest March temperatures on record. It's late spring and I'm freezing in my flat in London. Nobody is evening bothering to look at factors that might be contributing toward increased deaths outside of a hypothetical - and its existence is hypothetical since it has never been purified - virus.
Did you even bother to look at the data? There is a huge spike in deaths (70-80% increases) in last couple of weeks in comparison with previous months. There are also predictions of how many deaths will occur each week from January to February based on the averages from previous years, and they are accurate (which means that the variables are not significant) all the way up until the outbreak, when the numbers of deaths skyrocket above predictions.
This also corresponds to the fact that morgues and hospitals in Madrid are overwhelmed. Those who prepapred that grand conspiracy involving governments, press, actors recording fake videos in hospitals, etc. were really lucky that these 70-80% increases in deaths (which are of course result of grand solar minimum!) occured exactly during the weeks when the conspiracy was carried out.
It is clear that you made up your mind and nothing will convince you, just like on any other issue you post on this forum (no wonder you essentially created your own religion). Responding to you is a waste of time, which is why most of serious posters in this thread understandably ignore you.
Quote from: diaduit on March 30, 2020, 02:58:42 PM
https://www.statista.com/statistics/660254/pneumonia-deaths-ireland/
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/
Kreuz
As Ireland is starting into our week of 'peak' infection, would any of the links above give you an idea if we are up or down or the same on numbers for deaths. I'm no good to read statistics and I apologise if my links are no good but genuinely I am very curious about his.
I gave the pneumonia figures as this is what the established media are saying the people are dying from.
I'm curious too. I can't access the pneumonia data. Just the second link, which only has two data points in time, 1916 and 2014. I guess you could compare by country or whatever you call it, but the only normalised figure there is the total death rate. Maybe calculating respiratory death rates per county for 2014 by finding population sizes, but that would only give you data points over a year, and death rates probably vary by season. But 54 deaths so far I think is not going to tell us much with 965 pneumonia deaths over the whole of 2014.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 30, 2020, 03:17:38 PM
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
Can you explain this, or can anyone, because I'm confused?
It seems there was already a serious winter flu outbreak in Spain - before the coronavirus arrived. Note the date of the article - January 11, 2020.
This earlier flu outbreak was due to a different virus - A (H1N1) pdm09 - not Covid 19.
Could an earlier, serious winter flu outbreak be being confused with Covid 19?
Quote
Spain: Flu epidemic wave of the 2019-2020 season has officially begun
by News Desk
January 11, 2020
The Carlos III Health Institute in Madrid said this week the flu epidemic wave of the 2019-2020 season has officially begun, according to the disease transmissibility levels.
According to the latest weekly report of the Influenza Surveillance System in Spain, the flu season is characterized by a predominant circulation of the virus called A (H1N1) pdm09.
The year 2020 has begun in Spain with a global rate of incidence of influenza that is increasing, reaching 54.6 cases per 100,000 inhabitants according to the latest data. Of the detections notified from the beginning of the 2019-2020 season so far, 55.5% are type A -80% of virus A (H1N1) pdm09- and 44.5% are type B.
The report also notes that, of the confirmed serious hospitalized cases of influenza reported so far, 91% are influenza A viruses. 44% have registered in the group over 64 years old, while 30% appear in the group of 45 to 64 years (30%).
http://outbreaknewstoday.com/spain-flu-epidemic-wave-of-the-2019-2020-season-has-officially-begun-33028/
And why the lockdown for the coronavirus and not the already serious flu outbreak caused by a different virus?
There is nothing in that article saying that the 2020 flu season is different or more serious than usual (it only says that numbers are increasing because the flu season started - not because the numbers of flu infections are higher than usual). In fact, predictions on numbers of deaths in Castilla-Leon, Castilla-La Mancha and Madrid based on data from previous years are accurate (which means there was nothing out of ordinary), up until the outbreak of Covid-19 when the numbers skyrocket above predicted numbers by 70-80%.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 30, 2020, 03:20:47 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 30, 2020, 02:58:42 PM
https://www.statista.com/statistics/660254/pneumonia-deaths-ireland/
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/
Kreuz
As Ireland is starting into our week of 'peak' infection, would any of the links above give you an idea if we are up or down or the same on numbers for deaths. I'm no good to read statistics and I apologise if my links are no good but genuinely I am very curious about his.
I gave the pneumonia figures as this is what the established media are saying the people are dying from.
I'm curious too. I can't access the pneumonia data. Just the second link, which only has two data points in time, 1916 and 2014. I guess you could compare by country or whatever you call it, but the only normalised figure there is the total death rate. Maybe calculating respiratory death rates per county for 2014 by finding population sizes, but that would only give you data points over a year, and death rates probably vary by season. But 54 deaths so far I think is not going to tell us much with 965 pneumonia deaths over the whole of 2014.
1st link
2018* 1,084
2017 1,088
2016 1,049
2015 1,165
2014 1,003
2013 983
2011 1,057
2010 1,141
2009 1,320
It says number per 100k population.
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 03:19:29 PM
Did you even bother to look at the data? There is a huge spike in deaths (70-80% increases) in last couple of weeks in comparison with previous months.
If you mean your 3-month charts for 2020 which spikes only to to drop evenly more rapidly, no, it tells me absolutely nothing with regard to your claim.
QuoteThere are also predictions of how many deaths will occur each week from January to February based on the averages from previous years, and they are accurate (which means that the variables are not significant) all the way up until the outbreak, when the numbers of deaths skyrocket above predictions.
You mean those blue lines going through the actual data that look like moving averages or some such and again only appear for a few months? Of course they are "accurate" when there's little volatility (actually, they are not very accurate at all if you look at the black versus the blue line, they just do what something like a moving average does) - the most telling part is the third graphic where the blue line significantly
overshoots the number of deaths when the latter drops from its peak. How many data points going how far back are used in the calculation of these "estimates"? And where can I see a multi-decade history of data normalised for population size?
QuoteThis also corresponds to the fact that morgues and hospitals in Madrid are overwhelmed. Those who prepapred that grand conspiracy involving governments, press, actors recording fake videos in hospitals, etc. were really lucky that these 70-80% increases in deaths occured exactly during the weeks when the conspiracy was carried out.
That you have to resort to straw men that are the cookie-cutter formula to dismiss every "conspiracy theory" as supposedly ludicrous is telling of your mentality. Again, 70-80% increase in deaths from an average calculated over what period and with what standard deviation?
Quote(which are of course result of grand solar minimum!)
Ah, yes, of course considering factors like climate and environment as sharing responsibility in outbreaks of disease are ludicrous next to your conventional causal explanation of an invisible RNA pseudorganism, which has never been purified from a host, and is neither necessary nor sufficient for the presence of the symptoms of the disease it causes, and goes about from person to person making people ill, except most of the time when it does absolutely nothing. Got it.
I'm the idiot.
QuoteIt is clear that you made up your mind and nothing will convince you,
At least I didn't have my mind made up for me by the pharmaceutical industry.
And for the last time, the issue here is not whether there are x deaths or some increase, but whether this requires a viral epidemic and this virus is proven to exist and adequately explains it.
Quote from: diaduit on March 30, 2020, 03:30:43 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 30, 2020, 03:20:47 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 30, 2020, 02:58:42 PM
https://www.statista.com/statistics/660254/pneumonia-deaths-ireland/
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/
Kreuz
As Ireland is starting into our week of 'peak' infection, would any of the links above give you an idea if we are up or down or the same on numbers for deaths. I'm no good to read statistics and I apologise if my links are no good but genuinely I am very curious about his.
I gave the pneumonia figures as this is what the established media are saying the people are dying from.
I'm curious too. I can't access the pneumonia data. Just the second link, which only has two data points in time, 1916 and 2014. I guess you could compare by country or whatever you call it, but the only normalised figure there is the total death rate. Maybe calculating respiratory death rates per county for 2014 by finding population sizes, but that would only give you data points over a year, and death rates probably vary by season. But 54 deaths so far I think is not going to tell us much with 965 pneumonia deaths over the whole of 2014.
1st link
2018* 1,084
2017 1,088
2016 1,049
2015 1,165
2014 1,003
2013 983
2011 1,057
2010 1,141
2009 1,320
It says number per 100k population.
So a standard deviation of 101. If we consider the COVID-19 deaths additional and we add them to the average, nothing out of the ordinary, not even as bad as 2009. Who knows, since we have no total number of pneumonia deaths for the year or the year to-date.
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
What do those percentages refer to? An increase from 534 to 938 is not a 75% increase, for example. It's less than 50%.
The others are wrong too.
The funniest thing about this pandemic is that it started in China, and, as it happens, governments all over the world are turning Chinese on us. Now that's an impressive virus.
USA: 161,400, 2,995 dead.
Italy: 101,700, 11,591 dead.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 30, 2020, 04:32:23 PM
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
What do those percentages refer to? An increase from 534 to 938 is not a 75% increase, for example. It's less than 50%.
The others are wrong too.
yikes
QuoteAs Ireland is starting into our week of 'peak' infection, would any of the links above give you an idea if we are up or down or the same on numbers for deaths.
Number don't add up. Total deaths for 2014 is 6.3/1000 or 630/100,000. But your pneumonia data shows roughly 1000/100,000, so more than total deaths.
If you do the math, it looks like 1,000 is total pneumonia death, but that is just a guess.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 30, 2020, 04:32:23 PM
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
What do those percentages refer to? An increase from 534 to 938 is not a 75% increase, for example. It's less than 50%.
The others are wrong too.
75% of 534 is 400.5
534 + 400.5 = 934.5.
So it is actually slightly more than a 75% increase.
The other calculations are similarly accurate.
Quote from: Fleur-de-Lys on March 30, 2020, 05:46:21 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 30, 2020, 04:32:23 PM
Quote from: Arvinger on March 30, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
Statistics from the most affected regions of Spain show how grave the situation is. Numbers of deaths from 17th-24th of March compared to average number of deaths in the same time period in previous years:
Castilla-La Mancha: 938 deaths, average from previous years 534 (75% increase)
Castilla-Leon: 885 deaths, average 500 (77% increase)
Madrid: 1318 deaths, average 794 (66% increase).
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-27/el-coronavirus-causa-mas-muertes-de-las-detectadas.html
No wonder that Madrid is turning ice rink into an improvised morgue.
And it looks like we are only at the beginning, unless warmer weather slows this thing down (which there are no sings of in Australia and Malaysia where the temperatures are quite high).
What do those percentages refer to? An increase from 534 to 938 is not a 75% increase, for example. It's less than 50%.
The others are wrong too.
75% of 534 is 400.5
534 + 400.5 = 934.5.
So it is actually slightly more than a 75% increase.
The other calculations are similarly accurate.
Okay, must have been a brain fog.
But the article is claiming that some coronavirus deaths in Spain are being missed and not recorded as being due to the virus and that the virus death rates are consequently higher. At least that's what I gathered until I gave up grappling with the figures.
How they know is another matter. Having had another look at the article, the problem seems to be how a corona death is determined. Did the patient die of the virus or with the virus?
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 30, 2020, 07:00:04 PM
But the article is claiming that some coronavirus deaths in Spain are being missed and not recorded as being due to the virus and that the virus death rates are consequently higher. At least that's what I gathered until I gave up grappling with the figures.
How they know is another matter. Having had another look at the article, the problem seems to be how a corona death is determined. Did the patient die of the virus or with the virus?
Absolute idiots. How could they even presume to make such an inference without knowing the total infection rate to estimate the total number of infected? Have they conducted randomised testing on the population to come up with such a number? Of course they haven't. If anything, the example of the Diamond Princess shows that "asymptomatic" positives are around 50%, meaning most alleged carriers are never going to get themselves tested, which would make death rates considerably
lower than taking the one based on their number of "cases".
But how would this, "some coronavirus deaths in Spain are being missed and not recorded as being due to the virus and that the virus death rates are consequently higher", lead to higher death
rates in the first place? If we give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not biased toward symptomatic "cases", at worst the large sample from which this rate is being drawn is
random. Considering unreported deaths along with unreported cases in the population at large would change nothing. Why are morons like this allowed to write "scientific" articles?
QuoteDid the patient die of the virus or with the virus?
There's really no way for them to determine that. There's no way to actually measure the amount of alleged virus in a person's body. At best one could isolate COVID-19 as the only
known factor. But that's all presuming its "presence" is a causal factor in illness, which has
never actually been demonstrated. At best there's a correlation, and that doesn't demonstrate causation.
.
This is a critical week for Canada as the snow birds come home. And as the spring break travelers come back. Critical if they don't quarantine themselves for 14 days and continue with physical distancing so it doesn't end up over whelming the health care system. I hope they realize that fines and even jail time are in place for those that don't comply.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipL45hlwi-0[/yt]
Quebec holds spring break two weeks early. That is why the corona virus cases doubled in Quebec last week with travelers coming back from Florida.
Well at least the border will be locked, except for commerce, when they all return.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DUOxypQ8sM[/yt]
The major takeaway from this interview is that the tests beings used come back positive for multiple types of coronavirus, not just COVID-19, including those which are already at large in European populations. Can't make this up anymore.
https://www.zerohedge.com/personal-finance/greater-depression-shocking-images-show-horror-americas-new-breadlines
It could never happen again..."
A quick Google search shows the horrific scenes from the 1930s as Americans lined up by the thousands for food as The Great Depression struck fast, hard, and deep...
And here is today's shocking 'breadlines' - This video shows hundreds of cars waiting to receive food from the Greater Community Food Bank in Duquesne, near Pittsburgh...
Hundreds of cars wait to receive food from the Greater Community Food Bank in Duquesne. Collection begins at noon. @PghFoodBank @PittsburghPG pic.twitter.com/94YFaO7dqX
— Andrew Rush (@andrewrush) March 30, 2020
The last two food bank giveaways drew massive crowds and caused major delays on Route 837. When they had one at Kennywood last week, it drew over 800 cars and backed up for miles.
How did America go from "greatest economy ever" to "Greater Depression" so fast? (psss. Bozo Sapiens)
The insanity of democracy. Destroying society to save a million who will die in a few years. How many people will die when we turn into Venezuela?
Total Cases cross 800,000. Deaths near 40,000. Death rate stays consistently near 5%. 205 Territories infected.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
Theaflavin is a known inhibitor of coronavirus. Simple fact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN7pqDsSdno
Quote from: King Wenceslasa million who will die in a few years
Being indifferent to millions of older people, or any people, dying is not exactly pro-life. If a virus that began with a small handful in 1 country has not been able to be stopped until it has reached nearly a million in 200 countries, why on earth do you think it will stop after a million have died infected with it? It must be stopped and a cure must be administered. Social distancing is to buy time to find one. Tea may potentially have a key to the cure.
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 05:01:18 AM
This is a critical week for Canada as the snow birds come home. And as the spring break travelers come back. Critical if they don't quarantine themselves for 14 days and continue with physical distancing so it doesn't end up over whelming the health care system. I hope they realize that fines and even jail time are in place for those that don't comply.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipL45hlwi-0[/yt]
Quebec holds spring break two weeks early. That is why the corona virus cases doubled in Quebec last week with travelers coming back from Florida.
Well at least the border will be locked, except for commerce, when they all return.
Wow that woman on the thumbnail looked gangsta with a tatto even on her tit. This virus is coming for these death culture enablers and they deserve it.
Quote from: Sempronius on March 31, 2020, 07:00:34 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 05:01:18 AM
This is a critical week for Canada as the snow birds come home. And as the spring break travelers come back. Critical if they don't quarantine themselves for 14 days and continue with physical distancing so it doesn't end up over whelming the health care system. I hope they realize that fines and even jail time are in place for those that don't comply.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipL45hlwi-0[/yt]
Quebec holds spring break two weeks early. That is why the corona virus cases doubled in Quebec last week with travelers coming back from Florida.
Well at least the border will be locked, except for commerce, when they all return.
Wow that woman on the thumbnail looked gangsta with a tatto even on her tit. This virus is coming for these death culture enablers and they deserve it.
We all deserve it, bro. Let's not lose perspective: Luke 18:10. Pharisaical thinking is not what we need at this time. But as James said: "God's Justice is magnificent." That may be a paraphrase.
Quote from: Heinrich on March 31, 2020, 07:05:20 AM
Quote from: Sempronius on March 31, 2020, 07:00:34 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 05:01:18 AM
This is a critical week for Canada as the snow birds come home. And as the spring break travelers come back. Critical if they don't quarantine themselves for 14 days and continue with physical distancing so it doesn't end up over whelming the health care system. I hope they realize that fines and even jail time are in place for those that don't comply.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipL45hlwi-0[/yt]
Quebec holds spring break two weeks early. That is why the corona virus cases doubled in Quebec last week with travelers coming back from Florida.
Well at least the border will be locked, except for commerce, when they all return.
Wow that woman on the thumbnail looked gangsta with a tatto even on her tit. This virus is coming for these death culture enablers and they deserve it.
We all deserve it, bro. Let's not lose perspective: Luke 18:10. Pharisaical thinking is not what we need at this time. But as James said: "God's Justice is magnificent." That may be a paraphrase.
Sure, but the reactions in the face of death are different. A Christian can die with serenity but for these people they will panic or be numb on their deathbed.
Quote from: Sempronius on March 31, 2020, 07:14:07 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on March 31, 2020, 07:05:20 AM
Quote from: Sempronius on March 31, 2020, 07:00:34 AM
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 05:01:18 AM
This is a critical week for Canada as the snow birds come home. And as the spring break travelers come back. Critical if they don't quarantine themselves for 14 days and continue with physical distancing so it doesn't end up over whelming the health care system. I hope they realize that fines and even jail time are in place for those that don't comply.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipL45hlwi-0[/yt]
Quebec holds spring break two weeks early. That is why the corona virus cases doubled in Quebec last week with travelers coming back from Florida.
Well at least the border will be locked, except for commerce, when they all return.
Wow that woman on the thumbnail looked gangsta with a tatto even on her tit. This virus is coming for these death culture enablers and they deserve it.
We all deserve it, bro. Let's not lose perspective: Luke 18:10. Pharisaical thinking is not what we need at this time. But as James said: "God's Justice is magnificent." That may be a paraphrase.
Sure, but the reactions in the face of death are different. A Christian can die with serenity but for these people they will panic or be numb on their deathbed.
Recall a message from Fatima that many souls go to Hell because no one will pray for them.
Quote from: Sempronius on March 31, 2020, 07:14:07 AM
Sure, but the reactions in the face of death are different. A Christian can die with serenity but for these people they will panic or be numb on their deathbed.
It doesn't seem to be very Christian to panic over money or the economy without having a concern for the fate of the elderly.
Quote from: Xavier on March 31, 2020, 06:38:26 AM
Quote from: King Wenceslasa million who will die in a few years
Being indifferent to millions of older people, or any people, dying is not exactly pro-life.
Wait, when did Wuhan virus become included in "pro-life"? This sounds like Cardinal Bernadin's "seamless garment."
The pro-life movement opposes killing people on purpose. Not letting them die from a natural death.
Every year approx 100 million people die around the world from various causes. Your telling me that I'm not supposed to be "indifferent" to each of those 100 million people? Sorry, I'm not God. I can't get worked up when some old person on the other side of the world dies from perfectly natural causes.
Quote from: Xavier on March 31, 2020, 06:38:26 AM
It must be stopped and a cure must be administered.
Really, why? Why can't it just run its course? I don't see any moral issue involved here. If anything, humans trying to play God is a much bigger moral threat to the world than just living our lives and dying when our time comes.
Quote from: Xavier on March 31, 2020, 06:38:26 AM
Tea may potentially have a key to the cure.
Tea is a good thing. Couldn't hurt to drink tea. Theanine is also good for mental health.
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 07:56:17 AM
Quote from: Sempronius on March 31, 2020, 07:14:07 AM
Sure, but the reactions in the face of death are different. A Christian can die with serenity but for these people they will panic or be numb on their deathbed.
It doesn't seem to be very Christian to panic over money or the economy without having a concern for the fate of the elderly.
My opinion has always been that we should consume less, travel less and this is how that lifestyle looks like when applied to the whole society. Funny how ones philosophical musings can create such an havoc on reality.
Quote from: Maximilian on March 31, 2020, 08:06:35 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 31, 2020, 06:38:26 AM
Tea may potentially have a key to the cure.
Tea is a good thing. Couldn't hurt to drink tea. Theanine is also good for mental health.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brqc-DCCIAAzQGW.jpg)
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 07:56:17 AM
It doesn't seem to be very Christian to panic over money or the economy
Charity begins at home. The damage to the economy will have many times greater impact on my family's future than the Wuhan virus will.
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 07:56:17 AM
without having a concern for the fate of the elderly.
The fate of the elderly is to die. That's what each one of them has in store in the not too distant future. They need to prepare themselves spiritually instead of stealing their grandchildren's inheritance in order to stay alive a little bit longer.
Quote from: MaximillianReally, why? Why can't it just run its course? I don't see any moral issue involved here.
Trump cited a study estimating 2.2 million people would die in the US alone if it "just ran its course". If death rate is around 2%, that would be around 110 million people infected in just the US. Is that ok?
Saving people's lives from being killed is what the pro-life movement is all about; both with regard to abortion and euthanasia - defending the most vulnerable among us from dying before their time, isn't it?
Evidence suggests the Virus is an act of Communist Bio-Terrorism. There is a known Biological Laboratory in Wuhan very near the epicentre of the outbreak. Perhaps they were experimenting on seafood.
It's also highly unlikely Dr. Li Wen Liang would have willingly eaten the seafood - or bats, or whatever else the official narrative claims as the main source of the virus - himself. He was probably injected with it.
Dr. Li warned before his death that people were being infected with a dangerous virus that looked a lot like the SARS coronavirus, which broke out in 2002. Later research confirmed that SARS-COV-2 is 86% similar.
At any rate, saving people's lives is important. If it was caused intentionally, people are being killed due to a criminal act. If it was only culpable negligence, people are still dying because of criminal negligence.
QuoteTea is a good thing. Couldn't hurt to drink tea. Theanine is also good for mental health.
Agreed. "SARS-CoV is the causative agent of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). The virally encoded 3C-like protease (3CLPro) has been presumed critical for the viral replication of SARS-CoV in infected host cells. In this study, we screened a natural product library consisting of 720 compounds for inhibitory activity against 3CLPro. Two compounds in the library were found to be inhibitive: tannic acid (IC50 = 3 µM) and 3-isotheaflavin-3-gallate (TF2B) (IC50 = 7 µM). These two compounds belong to a group of natural polyphenols found in tea. We further investigated the 3CLPro-inhibitory activity of extracts from several different types of teas, including green tea, oolong tea, Puer tea and black tea. Our results indicated that extracts from Puer and black tea were more potent than that from green or oolong teas in their inhibitory activities against 3CLPro. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1142193/
On the WHO page for 2003 SARS, this is not mentioned. "SARS coronavirus (SARS-CoV) – virus identified in 2003. SARS-CoV is thought to be an animal virus from an as-yet-uncertain animal reservoir, perhaps bats, that spread to other animals (civet cats) and first infected humans in the Guangdong province of southern China in 2002 ... in southern China where the source of infection remains undetermined although there is circumstantial evidence of animal-to-human transmission. Should SARS re-emerge in epidemic form, WHO will provide guidance on the risk of travel to affected areas" https://www.who.int/ith/diseases/sars/en/ They're not an independent agency, it's become clear, but there's heavy Communist influence in the World Health Organization.
"stealing their grandchildren's inheritance" by staying alive.
Everything seems to revolve around money for so many in this forum. Well Maximilian if you are willing to publish that without hesitation then I don't have anything else to say to you.
Quote from: Xavier on March 31, 2020, 06:21:03 AM
Total Cases cross 800,000. Deaths near 40,000. Death rate stays consistently near 5%. 205 Territories infected.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
How can you just add up "cases" when the numbers of "cases" for different countries are not not even using the same definition of "case", let alone the same diagnostic procedures? This is like adding apples to oranges adn counting in the basket too. Moreover, how can you attribute all of these to COVID-19 when these tests come back positive for ordinary types of coronavirus taht were at large in world populations long before the recent "pandemic" and are always "found" in 7-15% of acute respiratory conditions in Europe?
My Dad is 82 and has survived a brain aneurism, triple bypass and countless other problems and he never ever once complained. IF he dies because God triggers a heart attack or a massive stroke or whatever reason then please God all I ask is that he gets the last rites. However I am pumping him full of immune boosting natural remedies so he isn't another statistic from corona virus, the brainchild of evil men.
I don't think we should have a lockdown because 90% of people will survive it but I also think the Gov should throw every resource into protecting the 10% and if that means more taxes well so be it.
I just can't tally with the idea that the old are going to die anyway so let them get the virus and be done with it. Horrible and also very easy to say once your under 70.
Good statistical data on weekly excess deaths. https://www.euromomo.eu/index.html (https://www.euromomo.eu/index.html)
First chart shows excess deaths for all of Europe. Note it is a week old. The flu season really shows up. Currently significantly DOWN (Z-score 4).
Next section has individual countries. Italy and Switzerland show up as high. Spain slightly on the low side. Spain will be a good test case, as they are currently reporting large COVID cases. France and Netherlands currently DOWN.
This will be a good site to monitor.
QuoteI just can't tally with the idea that the old are going to die anyway so let them get the virus and be done with it.
Higher taxes, ok. But what about higher debt on our unborn grandkids, with additional usury payments tacked on? So because of what my government has done, my grandkids will have no street lights, no police protection, and no pension, AND higher taxes, with less pay. That's before the inevitable debt collapse, which will be a grand time for them.
I really don't like seeing the pro-life argument dragged into this. That's about about opposing 'family planning' and the intrinsic sin of infanticide. Now if it has actually become a kind of mushy useless slogan that refers to anything that keeps someone, somewhere alive, then I will simply have to stop calling myself pro-life!
Re: the food bank line in Pittsburgh
I read at a blog the other day a lot of comments about it. There were quite a few first hand accounts of the people lined up. A lot of them were hoarders who spent their money on the wrong things and ran out of food with no extra money to buy more. Others were just freeloaders looking for a free lunch. Take reports like that with a grain of salt.
IMPORTANT READ MY DEAR FRIENDS
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/30/people-dying-equals-coronavirus-an-engineered-virus/
QuotePeople dying equals Coronavirus? An engineered virus?
Mar
30
by Jon Rappoport
by Jon Rappoport
March 30, 2020
(To join our email list, click here.)
This article is intended for close study. I urge you not to jump to an early conclusion about what I'm proposing here. For example, I'm not ruling out the engineering of a virus. But an unusual twist is involved.
This article is also part of a larger position. That position can be defined as:
AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMING THE SO-CALLED EPIDEMIC IS CAUSED BY A VIRUS IS INCORRECT.
THE TRUTH DOESN'T SUPPORT FEAR.
FEAR IS SELF-DEFEATING.
FEAR CLOSES DOWN POSSIBILITY.
DON'T CLOSE DOWN POSSIBILITY IN ANY ASPECT OF YOUR LIFE.
Among other subjects, this article comments on the hypothesis that the COVID-19 virus is a modified weaponized germ from a lab, either deliberately or accidentally released.
A general comment: weaponizing a virus as an instrument for causing widespread destruction faces a significant barrier. From the get-go, viruses mutate very quickly as they replicate. Therefore, the criminals wouldn't maintain the viral structure they started with. Ensuring continued lethality would therefore appear to be impossible.
Then there is this: I fully understand that researchers in certain labs are always fiddling and diddling with viruses. That's their job. The question, in a given situation, is: are they successful at weaponization, even ignoring the rapid mutation factor I just mentioned?
THERE IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN: THEY TRIED TO WEAPONIZE A CORONAVIRUS IN LABS, AND THEY SUCCEEDED AND RELEASED IT. EVIDENCE FOR THE FORMER, NO MATTER HOW CONVINCING, IS NOT EVIDENCE OF THE LATTER.
Anything is possible, but so far, what I see is this: when I add up all the reasons people are sick and dying, I don't see a new germ as the basis.
I've detailed, in past articles, all the Chinese cases who have been diagnosed for no other reason than they have pneumonia, a traditional disease of major proportions in China. Studies estimate that roughly 300,000 citizens die of it every year. Which means there are millions of Chinese people who have develop pneumonia each year. Furthermore, the Chinese government quickly abandoned the idea of testing for the purported coronavirus—favoring instead, CT scans of the lungs. A finding of pneumonia was sufficient for a diagnosis of an "epidemic case." That is absurd on its face. Pneumonia has many causes, none of which requires a new virus.
Then we have the cases in Italy, the second largest reservoir of the so-called epidemic. Here, the deaths occur massively on the side of the elderly, who already have serious prior medical conditions, long term. In the reports issued by the Italian government so far, the people dying are said to "have the virus," but the conclusion is they're dying because of their prior medical conditions.
The conventional wisdom, often spouted, is: "the coronavirus strikes the elderly, who are less able than the young to ward it off." This is a misnomer, deployed to cover up the reality that the elderly are passing away, as they usually do, from the illnesses they already have—no need for a new virus.
I've also discussed deaths in Australia and the state of Washington. Again, it's elderly people. As in Italy, add up their long-term diseases; the treatment of those diseases with toxic medical drugs; the fear engendered by the diagnosis of "COVID"; sudden isolation from family and friends; the use of breathing ventilators, which have their own set of adverse effects, including bacterial pneumonia; and new treatment with toxic antiviral drugs, to "fight the virus"; and you have a terribly potent array of factors which account for the elderly dying. No need for a new virus.
As I've detailed in past articles, flu-like diseases (quite often, with no evidence of a flu virus) are traditional in Europe and the US. Their symptoms overlap the symptoms listed for so-called COVID. In recent years, there have been huge numbers of such people with these flu-like illnesses, and many have died—before the emergence of the so-called COVID virus. Again, no need for a unique new virus.
And as far as overall global case numbers of COVID are concerned, a large percentage of these people have been diagnosed purely on the basis of their symptoms, with no test, or via the accepted diagnostic test, called PCR. I'll cover that test in a moment. Suffice to say, it fails to prove illness is stemming from COVID virus or any virus—but it does create a picture of supposedly swelling case numbers. In a recent article, I've quoted the literature of official public health authorities, who themselves admit the test has fatal flaws.
Then we have unexplained relatively small clusters of people who appear to be suddenly falling ill. A closer examination of these people is necessary, to see whether they, in fact, ARE "sudden and unexplained." If they are, I would suggest investigating whether the rollout of new 5G wireless technology at 60GHz is occurring in those locales. It is possible 5G is causing oxygen deprivation, among other serious effects. And rather than an engineered virus—which has unpredictable effects owing to its rapid mutation—if we're looking for sinister operations, I suggest that, to cause sensational alarm and bafflement and "proof" that a mysterious event is underway, the intentional seeding of locales with little-known toxic chemicals would be the action undertaken. The effects of chemicals are far more predictable in terms of intensity and duration, and if no one is specifically looking for them, they are undetectable.
Finally, in major cities of China (e.g., Wuhan) and Italy (particularly in the north), highly toxic air quality has been far more than "a serious problem" for some years. This alone would account for huge numbers of people suffering from all sorts of lung conditions, including pneumonia. Pneumonia is one of the cardinal listed symptoms of the "epidemic." In China, the mix of toxic pollutants in the air is unprecedented in human history, spanning both early and modern eras of industrialization.
Conclusion: All in all, I would say that, if a weaponized coronavirus has been achieved, and then released or accidentally leaked, it is not a success. Far too much of what is being called COVID is explained by the causative factors I've just presented.
In fact, if we want to talk about engineered viruses—including what would probably be an easier technical job in the lab—the most successful operation would involve slightly altering a common coronavirus to cause nothing more than a common cold. Then, with a "self-fulfilling prophecy" diagnostic test in hand, people all over the world would test positive; many case numbers would thus be created; and with the non-virus illness-causes I've just described, the illusion of a global pandemic would be stitched together—all leading to the real goal: LOCKDOWNS, economic destruction, and the further pacification of the population. A bereft population more dependent than ever on governments and official authorities. A dazed population guided into a heavily technocratic future—wall to wall surveillance, smart cities, Internet of Things, universal guaranteed income tied to social credit score. Most importantly: Assigned energy quotas for every citizen. CONTROL.
Moving on from biowar labs to ordinary labs, has the COVID virus ever actually been DISCOVERED and isolated there by proper procedures? As I've written in another article, COVID-19 lacks correct proof in that regard. What I believe is the best method for that job—traditional electron microscope studies on HUNDREDS OF PATIENTS, in a side-by-side controlled test—was never done at the outset. This is convenient, to say the least, if in fact a common coronavirus has been engineered to cause nothing more than a cold. The absence of true isolation and discovery permits such a virus to slip in under the radar.
The widespread diagnostic test for the COVID virus now in use, called the PCR, falls far short of proving that ANY person is sick or will get sick. In other articles, I have proposed a vetting process for the PCR—which should have been done decades ago—in order to show it works or doesn't work in the real world. This vetting procedure would be suggested by any college science student as obvious and necessary. It has never been carried out. It involves proving the test can determine that a huge quantity of virus, actively replicating in the human body, is present—and therefore, the patient would, in the real world, be sick. Carrying out such a test, on hundreds of patients, in a controlled and blinded setting, AND THEN SEEING WHETHER THE TEST DOES POINT TO ACTUALLY SICK PEOPLE, has never been done. Therefore, claiming the test confirms that COVID virus is causing great damage is unsupported. This, too, is quite convenient, if a common coronavirus that causes nothing more than a common cold has been engineered. In that situation, you would want a diagnostic test that can't predict or detect serious illness, because the virus doesn't cause serious illness. The virus is only there as a prop, to create the illusion of case numbers stemming from one source: a harmless COVID-19 VIRUS.
Now, let's move on to the effects of propaganda.
People say: patients are sick and dying all over the world—so IT MUST BE THE VIRUS. WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE? Aristotle worked out the fact that the effect does not prove the cause. The effect (people sick and dying) does not prove the cause (COVID virus).
And history matters. It offers clues and precedents. We've seen dud epidemics in the past blamed on a virus, and yet, embarrassingly, the virus couldn't be found. BUT WHO CARES, PEOPLE SAY, moved by propaganda. IT MUST BE THE VIRUS. (See my articles on SARS and Swine Flu 2009.)
—People sick, people dying. How many people? Unknown. Massive lockdowns of Chinese cities. Citizens trying to escape. For the global audience, this equals coronavirus, not because they know the virus is the cause—proof is beside the point. The virus is the cause because IT MUST BE. WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?
When brutal air pollution in Wuhan obviously brings on lung disease; and when the primary symptom of the coronavirus is supposed to be lung disease; and when citizens of the city have been falling ill and dying from lung disease long before the virus appeared—does this matter?
OF COURSE NOT. IT MUST BE THE VIRUS. Propaganda.
When governments and corporations have been using THE VIRUS as a cover story to obscure and explain away their crimes against populations, for decades and decades—does this matter?
When previous so-called epidemics—for example, West Nile, SARS, Zika, and Swine Flu—turned out to be complete unproven duds—does this history matter?
OF COURSE NOT. IT HAS TO BE THE VIRUS. WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?
A face on a television screen watched by millions of people says CORONAVIRUS. Therefore, case closed.
In 2009, in La Gloria, Mexico, on a giant commercial pig farm, pig feces and urine are allowed to bake and steam and bubble in the sun. These deposits are called lagoons. They're so large, you can see them from outer space. Toxic chemicals are routinely sprayed and laid out like whipped cream on the lagoons. Workers are falling ill. New workers are brought in to spray even more toxic chemicals. Workers die. Then the Centers for Disease Control sends in their tuned-up virus hunters to look for the germ causing the "mysterious" illness. They claim to find a Swine Flu virus. IT MUST BE THE VIRUS. WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE? THE DECAYING PIG SHIT AND URINE? The layers of poisonous chemicals? Don't be ridiculous.
Later, in the summer of 2009, CBS investigative reporter Sharyl Attkisson discovers that the overwhelming percentage of tissue samples from US Swine Flu patients are coming back from labs with no sign of ANY KIND OF FLU. The virus isn't there.
And yet, of course, we have this, written in the summer of 2009: From healthwyze.org: "The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has a patent for, Genetically Engineered Swine Influenza Virus and Uses Thereof (patent #8124101). It was filed in 2005 for approval. The makers of the human variant of the swine flu virus waited until the patent was finally approved in January of 2009, before unleashing the virus into the wild. The makers of the swine flu vaccine had begun the lengthy patenting process long before the swine flu supposedly existed, which means that the outbreak was no accident, and the virus is clearly not natural. Patents only apply to man-made items, and natural things cannot be patented. The virus conveniently went public only after its vaccine patent was approved, after patiently waiting 3 years for that to happen. The pandemic was declared just five months after the patent was approved, in June of 2009. The tremendous hysteria following the outbreak was promoted by the same groups who had invented this genetically engineered virus. The word 'invented' was actually used to describe the virus in the patent application."
What do you know about that? Back then, there were reports that the Swine Flu Virus—which couldn't even be found in the overwhelmingly number of US patients—was actually a biowarfare germ. Sound familiar? Swine Flu was a DUD.
Another epidemic that was going to infect the world? West Nile Virus. Another dud. But here from an old whale.to article: "None of these theories [about West Nile] has deterred Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy from urging federal officials to determine if the introduction of WN virus is a terrorist attack. On September 12, 2002, Leahy declared: 'I think we have to ask ourselves: Is it a coincidence that we're seeing such an increase in WN virus – or is that something that's being tested as a biological weapon against us'." Sound familiar?
And here, from an old article at rediff.com, a piece about another epidemic dud, SARS 2003 (800 people died out of 7 billion, and WHO researcher, Frank Plummer, told the press they couldn't even find the virus in all but a few Canadian patients): "The virus of atypical pneumonia, better known as SARS, or Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, was created artificially, possibly as a bacteriological weapon, Sergei Kolesnikov, academician of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, told a press conference in the Siberian town of Irkutsk on Thursday, the Russian RIA Novosti news agency reported."
"According to Kolesnikov, the virus of atypical pneumonia is a synthesis of the viruses of measles and infectious parotiditis or mumps, the natural compound of which is impossible. This can be done only in a laboratory, he said."
"Kolesnikov added that in creating bacteriological weapons, a protective anti-viral vaccine is, as a rule, worked out at the same time, so a medicine for atypical pneumonia may soon appear."
"He did not, however, rule out the possibility that the virus could have spread accidentally as a result of "an unsanctioned leakage" from a biological weapons laboratory."
Sound familiar? And yet the "epidemic" was a dud.
I would take these duds, and the concomitant warnings of engineered pandemic viruses, as further evidence that, if any engineering was going on, it was the "lite" version I've described in reference to COVID-19: the duds were previous attempts to stitch together the illusion of a pandemic—attempts that fell short of success, or were designed as smaller test runs leading up to what we have now.
The ceaseless propaganda promoting "deadly viruses" is essential to creating the pandemic illusion...and sometimes you can see through the illusion in graphic terms. Quite, quite clearly. In 1987, a doctor calls me, while I'm writing my first book, AIDS INC. He tells me he's built a small AIDS clinic where a group of poverty-stricken patients can rest in clean surroundings, eat nutritious food, and grow beans and sell them for a small amount of money. This doctor is mainstream. He's given his patients no medical treatment. He knows that THE VIRUS, HIV, is said to be a remorseless killer. But, he tells me, all his patients have recovered; they no longer have symptoms. They're healthy. He's puzzled, confused, and distraught. He asks me, "What should I do next?" He knows the AIDS drugs are highly toxic. He senses that giving them to his now-healthy patients would bring on a disaster. Oh but you see, according to the propaganda masquerading as science, IT MUST BE THE VIRUS. WHAT ELSE COULD BE CAUSING THESE PEOPLE TO BECOME SICK IN THE FIRST PLACE? Drinking the water in their villages—water mixed directly with sewage? Hunger? Starvation? Toxic vaccines pushing their depleted immune systems over the edge of the cliff? Don't be ridiculous. IT MUST BE HIV.
In an interview, a famous New York doctor tells me all scientists agree that HIV is the cause of AIDS because, well, the scientists who don't agree can't get their findings published. He's telling me all VISIBLE scientists agree.
Several years ago, during the Zika virus hysteria (another dud epidemic, of microcephaly, that surely would "decimate populations"), researchers in the epicenter, in Brazil, report that only between 10 and 15 percent of Zika patients have any trace of the virus—they can't find it in the other patients. This amounts to a bald confession that Zika is eliminated as the cause of disease in pregnant women. But no one listens. IT MUST BE THE VIRUS. WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?
Well, it turns out it could be ANY INJURY OF ANY KIND TO A PREGNANT MOTHER—causing her baby to be born with a smaller head and brain damage, called microcephaly.
But here, in a 2016 article from thesleuthjournal.com, we have this: "It's [Zika virus] being spread by genetically engineered mosquitos. Is it the latest example of US biowarfare? America's sordid history suggests it."
If it was being spread in that fashion, it wasn't working to cause disease. It was a failure. But as propaganda, it was a success.
And of course, the World Health organization hit the hysteria button at the time with their own brand of propaganda. From marketwatch.com, January 28, 2016: "The World Health Organization will convene an emergency committee in Geneva on Monday to discuss the mosquito-borne Zika virus, which the organization's head said is spreading 'explosively' and which many doctors and health officials believe is linked to an unprecedented outbreak of babies born with small heads in Brazil...'The level of alarm is extremely high,' WHO Director-General Margaret Chan said in remarks to the public-health agency's executive board...WHO's announcement underscores the speed with which a virus that began as an obscure tropical malady afflicting Africa and then several remote Western Pacific islands has transformed into a major international health concern, particularly in the Americas."
Dud. If WHO could squeeze out more fear, NOW, in 2020, about an ever-expanding Zika crisis, don't you think they would? Even THEY'VE given up the ghost on that campaign. Meaning: they achieved their goal of creating alarm and public acceptance of THE VIRUS one more time. No need to go further for the moment.
The key event in the current COVID operation was the sudden Chinese government lockdown of 50 million citizens overnight in three major cities. That was the signal the CDC and the World Health Organization received with open arms.
"Well, they broke the ice. This is what we've been waiting for. This is now a model we can sell. Lockdowns on a massive scale."
And they did sell it.
As I discovered in 1987, when I was researching AIDS, the basic epidemic con involves grouping all sorts of people and groups who are suffering from different traditional diseases, environmental toxicities, and certain new NON-VIRUS conditions UNDER ONE UMBRELLA LABEL. And then saying they're all sick because of one virus. That is the central illusion.
Finally, I need to make a general comment about the effects of viruses on humans. These effects have been vastly overrated. Consider the proponents of the so-called "hot zone" hypothesis. For many years, they've claimed that viruses coming out of rainforests and traveling, in the modern age, to distant countries would cause horrific consequences—in the form of a cascade of MANY new diseases.
Why? Because the immune systems of people, unacquainted with these novel germs, would lack the capacity to ward them off. But that prediction has not come to pass.
The hot zone advocates have also failed to mention that the reverse vector of travel should also result in massive epidemics: in other words, viruses which are routinely carried by Americans and Europeans—and cause them no harm—should be decimating native peoples in rainforests, since the "more civilized" people travel in great numbers into jungles. The decimation has not come to pass. Native peoples have been uprooted and damaged by industry, but they haven't been wiped out by American or European viruses.
In fact, when you think about it, all countries and locales tend to have their own viruses which are endemic and harmless to locals, but when carried to other lands, should be wreaking havoc.
But they aren't. We should all be dead many times over. But we aren't.
The hot zone fear stories should also be dead by now. But they still attract adherents.
Quote from: james03 on March 31, 2020, 10:43:33 AM
Higher taxes, ok. But what about higher debt on our unborn grandkids, with additional usury payments tacked on? So because of what my government has done, my grandkids will have no street lights, no police protection, and no pension, AND higher taxes, with less pay.
Right. Except for most people, there won't be any grandkids. We were already facing population implosion around the world, now this next shock is going to tip things over the edge. All those people who were too frightened by climate change to have children, now they have something to be really frightened about.
https://fromrome.info/2020/03/30/dr-sucharit-bhakdi-national-responses-to-covid-19-are-ignoring-basic-principles-of-infectology/
QuoteDr. Sucharit Bhakdi: COVID-19 responses are ignoring basic principles of infectology
March 30, 2020 From Rome Editor 5 Comments
Here FromRome.Info republishes in full the letter of Dr. Bhakdi to the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel on the Coronavirus crisis The Original is in German.
This English translation, slightly corrected by FromRome.Info, is that published by GlobalReserach.org
An Open Letter from Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, Professor Emeritus of Medical Microbiology at the Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz, to the German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel. Professor Bhakdi calls for an urgent reassessment of the response to Covid-19 and asks the Chancellor five crucial questions. The letter is dated March 26. This is an inofficial translation; see the original letter in German as a PDF.
Dear Chancellor,
As Emeritus of the Johannes-Gutenberg-University in Mainz and longtime director of the Institute for Medical Microbiology, I feel obliged to critically question the far-reaching restrictions on public life that we are currently taking on ourselves in order to reduce the spread of the COVID-19 virus.
It is expressly not my intention to play down the dangers of the virus or to spread a political message. However, I feel it is my duty to make a scientific contribution to putting the current data and facts into perspective – and, in addition, to ask questions that are in danger of being lost in the heated debate.
The reason for my concern lies above all in the truly unforeseeable socio-economic consequences of the drastic containment measures which are currently being applied in large parts of Europe and which are also already being practiced on a large scale in Germany.
My wish is to discuss critically – and with the necessary foresight – the advantages and disadvantages of restricting public life and the resulting long-term effects.
To this end, I am confronted with five questions which have not been answered sufficiently so far, but which are indispensable for a balanced analysis.
I would like to ask you to comment quickly and, at the same time, appeal to the Federal Government to develop strategies that effectively protect risk groups without restricting public life across the board and sow the seeds for an even more intensive polarization of society than is already taking place.
With the utmost respect,
Prof. em. Dr. med. Sucharit Bhakdi
– – –
1. Statistics
In infectology – founded by Robert Koch himself – a traditional distinction is made between infection and disease. An illness requires a clinical manifestation. [1] Therefore, only patients with symptoms such as fever or cough should be included in the statistics as new cases.
In other words, a new infection – as measured by the COVID-19 test – does not necessarily mean that we are dealing with a newly ill patient who needs a hospital bed. However, it is currently assumed that five percent of all infected people become seriously ill and require ventilation. Projections based on this estimate suggest that the healthcare system could be overburdened.
My question: Did the projections make a distinction between symptom-free infected people and actual, sick patients – i.e. people who develop symptoms?
2. Threat
A number of coronaviruses have been circulating for a long time – largely unnoticed by the media. [2] If it should turn out that the COVID-19 virus should not be ascribed a significantly higher risk potential than the already circulating corona viruses, all countermeasures would obviously become unnecessary.
The internationally recognized International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents will soon publish a paper that addresses exactly this question. Preliminary results of the study can already be seen today and lead to the conclusion that the new virus is NOT different from traditional corona viruses in terms of threats. The authors express this in the title of their paper "SARS-CoV-2: Fear versus Data". [3]
My question: How does the current workload of intensive care units with patients with diagnosed COVID-19 compare to other coronavirus infections, and to what extent will this data be taken into account in further decision-making by the federal government? In addition: Has the above study been taken into account in the planning so far? Here too, of course, "diagnosed" means that the virus plays a decisive role in the patient's state of illness, and not that previous illnesses play a greater role.
3. Dissemination
According to a report in the Süddeutsche Zeitung, not even the much-cited Robert Koch Institute knows exactly how much is tested for COVID-19. It is a fact, however, that a rapid increase in the number of cases has recently been observed in Germany as the volume of tests increases. [4]
It is therefore reasonable to suspect that the virus has already spread unnoticed in the healthy population. This would have two consequences: firstly, it would mean that the official death rate – on 26 March 2020, for example, there were 206 deaths from around 37,300 infections, or 0.55 percent [5] – is too high; and secondly, it would mean that it would hardly be possible to prevent the virus from spreading in the healthy population.
My question: Has there already been a random sample of the healthy general population to validate the real spread of the virus, or is this planned in the near future?
4. Mortality
The fear of a rise in the death rate in Germany (currently 0.55 percent) is currently the subject of particularly intense media attention. Many people are worried that it could shoot up like in Italy (10 percent) and Spain (7 percent) if action is not taken in time.
At the same time, the mistake is being made worldwide to report virus-related deaths as soon as it is established that the virus was present at the time of death – regardless of other factors. This violates axiomatic principles of only when it is certain that an agent has played a significant role in the disease or death may a diagnosis be made. The Association of the Scientific Medical Societies of Germany expressly writes in its guidelines: "In addition to the cause of death, a causal chain must be stated, with the corresponding underlying disease in third place on the death certificate. Occasionally, four-linked causal chains must also be stated." [6]
At present there is no official information on whether, at least in retrospect, more critical analyses of medical records have been undertaken to determine how many deaths were actually caused by the virus.
My question: Has Germany simply followed this trend of a COVID-19 general suspicion? And: is it intended to continue this categorization uncritically as in other countries? How, then, is a distinction to be made between genuine corona-related deaths and accidental virus presence at the time of death?
5. Comparability
The appalling situation in Italy is repeatedly used as a reference scenario. However, the true role of the virus in that country is completely unclear for many reasons – not only because points 3 and 4 above also apply here, but also because exceptional external factors exist which make these regions particularly vulnerable.
One of these factors is the increased air pollution in the north of Italy. According to WHO estimates, this situation, even without the virus, led to over 8,000 additional deaths per year in 2006 in the 13 largest cities in Italy alone. [7] The situation has not changed significantly since then. [8] Finally, it has also been shown that air pollution greatly increases the risk of viral lung diseases in very young and elderly people. [9]
Moreover, 27.4 percent of the particularly vulnerable population in this country live with young people, and in Spain as many as 33.5 percent. In Germany, the figure is only seven percent [10]. In addition, according to Prof. Dr. Reinhard Busse, head of the Department of Management in Health Care at the TU Berlin, Germany is significantly better equipped than Italy in terms of intensive care units – by a factor of about 2.5 [11].
My question: What efforts are being made to make the population aware of these elementary differences and to make people understand that scenarios like those in Italy or Spain are not realistic here?
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Notes
[1] Fachwörterbuch Infektionsschutz und Infektionsepidemiologie. Fachwörter – Definitionen – Interpretationen. Robert Koch-Institut, Berlin 2015. (abgerufen am 26.3.2020)
[2] Killerby et al., Human Coronavirus Circulation in the United States 2014–2017. J Clin Virol. 2018, 101, 52-56
[3] Roussel et al. SARS-CoV-2: Fear Versus Data. Int. J. Antimicrob. Agents 2020, 105947
[4] Charisius, H. Covid-19: Wie gut testet Deutschland? Süddeutsche Zeitung. (abgerufen am 27.3.2020)
[5] Johns Hopkins University, Coronavirus Resource Center. 2020. (abgerufen am 26.3.2020)
[6] S1-Leitlinie 054-001, Regeln zur Durchführung der ärztlichen Leichenschau. AWMF Online (abgerufen am 26.3.2020)
[7] Martuzzi et al. Health Impact of PM10 and Ozone in 13 Italian Cities. World Health Organization Regional Office for Europe. WHOLIS number E88700 2006
[8] European Environment Agency, Air Pollution Country Fact Sheets 2019, (abgerufen am 26.3.2020)
[9] Croft et al. The Association between Respiratory Infection and Air Pollution in the Setting of Air Quality Policy and Economic Change. Ann. Am. Thorac. Soc. 2019, 16, 321–330.
[10] United Nations, Department of Economic and Social Affairs, Population Division. Living Arrange ments of Older Persons: A Report on an Expanded International Dataset (ST/ESA/SER.A/407). 2017
[11] Deutsches Ärzteblatt, Überlastung deutscher Krankenhäuser durch COVID-19 laut Experten unwahrscheinlich, (abgerufen am 26.3.2020)
The original source of this article is Swiss Propaganda Research
Copyright © Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, Swiss Propaganda Research, 2020
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 09:17:46 AM
"stealing their grandchildren's inheritance" by staying alive.
Everything seems to revolve around money for so many in this forum. Well Maximilian if you are willing to publish that without hesitation then I don't have anything else to say to you.
It's a morally bankrupt statement. Surely, we're all going to die someday but that shouldn't inhibit us from doing the best we can to take care of the most fragile among us and to save lives when possible. Taking care of the sick is a huge part of Catholic tradition and civilization.
Furthermore, it's a common mistake to keep honing in on the elderly. They're the ones hit the hardest but everyone else can be affected by this virus too. Just two days ago, a baby died in Chicago from the virus. Let that sink in. We all have a moral responsibility here to at least try to navigate this crisis responsibly.
Quote from: diaduit on March 31, 2020, 10:26:35 AMMy Dad is 82 and has survived a brain aneurism, triple bypass and countless other problems and he never ever once complained. IF he dies because God triggers a heart attack or a massive stroke or whatever reason then please God all I ask is that he gets the last rites. However I am pumping him full of immune boosting natural remedies so he isn't another statistic from corona virus, the brainchild of evil men.
Silly goose. He's going to
steal the inheritance of your grandchildren.
QuoteI don't think we should have a lockdown because 90% of people will survive it but I also think the Gov should throw every resource into protecting the 10% and if that means more taxes well so be it.
I just can't tally with the idea that the old are going to die anyway so let them get the virus and be done with it. Horrible and also very easy to say once your under 70.
It's also one of the most alien ideas to Catholicism one could think of.
QuoteIt's a morally bankrupt statement.
No it's not. It's a valid question to ask.
Higher taxes? Probably ok, especially if temporary. Shutting down an entire economy? Don't know, that needs to be discussed. Usury? Never permissible.
Quote from: Xavier on March 31, 2020, 09:00:46 AM
Evidence suggests the Virus is an act of Communist Bio-Terrorism.
No, it does not.
Check, for instance, The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9), published in Nature Medicine and Escaping Pandora's Box - Another Novel Coronavirus (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2002106), published in the New England Journal of Medicine. In this last piece, David M. Morens, M.D. and Peter Daszak, Ph.D. from the National Institute of Health (NIH) and Jeffery K. Taubenberger, M.D., Ph.D. conclude:
"Of course, scientists tell us that SARS-CoV-2 did not escape from a jar: RNA sequences closely resemble those of viruses that silently circulate in bats, and epidemiologic information implicates a bat-origin virus infecting unidentified animal species sold in China's live-animal markets."
On second thought, the Euro death data is not particularly useful. Note that there has been a statistically significant DECREASE in death for 0-4, and 15-65 age ranges, and lower but not unusual drop 5-14 and 65+. Well, if you shut everything down, traffic accidents go to zero. I wonder why 0-4 has dropped off so much. Perhaps pulling infants and toddlers from strangercare?
We really need flu data.
You don't use viruses as bio weapons. They have a nasty habit of mutating and containing the virus to the target area is near impossible. A spore type bacterium like anthrax is what you want.
However, it could still be lab created. For example, if China developed the strain to make SARS vaccine, that would be possible, if not likely. It could have even been developed as an animal vaccine.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 31, 2020, 12:18:17 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 09:17:46 AM
"stealing their grandchildren's inheritance" by staying alive.
Everything seems to revolve around money for so many in this forum. Well Maximilian if you are willing to publish that without hesitation then I don't have anything else to say to you.
It's a morally bankrupt statement. Surely, we're all going to die someday but that shouldn't inhibit us from doing the best we can to take care of the most fragile among us and to save lives when possible. Taking care of the sick is a huge part of Catholic tradition and civilization.
Furthermore, it's a common mistake to keep honing in on the elderly. They're the ones hit the hardest but everyone else can be affected by this virus too. Just two days ago, a baby died in Chicago from the virus. Let that sink in. We all have a moral responsibility here to at least try to navigate this crisis responsibly.
When is your sex change operation?
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 31, 2020, 12:24:20 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 31, 2020, 10:26:35 AMMy Dad is 82 and has survived a brain aneurism, triple bypass and countless other problems and he never ever once complained. IF he dies because God triggers a heart attack or a massive stroke or whatever reason then please God all I ask is that he gets the last rites. However I am pumping him full of immune boosting natural remedies so he isn't another statistic from corona virus, the brainchild of evil men.
Silly goose. He's going to steal the inheritance of your grandchildren.
QuoteI don't think we should have a lockdown because 90% of people will survive it but I also think the Gov should throw every resource into protecting the 10% and if that means more taxes well so be it.
I just can't tally with the idea that the old are going to die anyway so let them get the virus and be done with it. Horrible and also very easy to say once your under 70.
It's also one of the most alien ideas to Catholicism one could think of.
I know given they future have a God given right to street lights, roads and a health service , ya know coz their under 70!!
As for pro life, its a dam good argument against this mentality of let them die anyway, its called the 6th commandment, either we believe in it or we don't.
Lastly, given the Eugenicists for a century have been banging on about the burden of those that are chronically ill or elderly, I know which side I want to be on.
No more than the elderly have a right to expect to live for ever, humanity has no right to expect a cushy existence either.
Quote from: james03 on March 31, 2020, 12:26:20 PM
QuoteIt's a morally bankrupt statement.
No it's not. It's a valid question to ask.
Higher taxes? Probably ok, especially if temporary. Shutting down an entire economy? Don't know, that needs to be discussed. Usury? Never permissible.
Not taking any action to protect the elderly and letting them die of the virus because they're going to steal their grandchildren's inheritance? Unacceptable.
The lock-down's goal is to flatten the curve and avoid millions of infections at the same time. It's not simply to protect the elderly, laudable as that is, it's to protect the whole society and the healthcare systems from collapsing. Speaking of which:
Restrictions are slowing coronavirus infections, new data suggestsIn
Boston.com (https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/03/31/restrictions-are-slowing-coronavirus-infections-new-data-suggest).
Quote from: diaduit on March 31, 2020, 12:38:29 PM
As for pro life, its a dam good argument against this mentality of let them die anyway, its called the 6th commandment, either we believe in it or we don't.
Lastly, given the Eugenicists for a century have been banging on about the burden of those that are chronically ill or elderly, I know which side I want to be on.
No more than the elderly have a right to expect to live for ever, humanity has no right to expect a cushy existence either.
A mentality of "just let our parents and grandparents die" is self-discrediting. There is no need to water down opposition to family planning and infanticide (which are carefully defined and intrinsically sinful) by wrapping that all up in a single slogan with some mushy opposition to someone, somewhere dying. You will find the mushy association approach will come back to bite you when people say opposing capital punishment is the only pro-life position, giving billions in aid to foreign nations is the only pro-life position, opening the borders is the only pro-life position, and so on.
Wuhan seafood market may not be source of novel virus spreading globally
In Sciencemag (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/wuhan-seafood-market-may-not-be-source-novel-virus-spreading-globally).
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dt4hmjb/Wuhan-Coronavirus-market-hazmat-1280x720-2.jpg)
The Huanan seafood market in Wuhan has been widely considered the source of the outbreak of a novel coronavirus. But the virus may have infected people elsewhere first.
As confirmed cases of a novel virus surge around the world with worrisome speed, all eyes have so far focused on a seafood market in Wuhan, China, as the origin of the outbreak. But a description of the first clinical cases published in The Lancet on Friday challenges that hypothesis. The paper, written by a large group of Chinese researchers from several institutions, offers details about the first 41 hospitalized patients who had confirmed infections with what has been dubbed 2019 novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV). In the earliest case, the patient became ill on 1 December 2019 and had no reported link to the seafood market, the authors report. "No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases," they state. Their data also show that, in total, 13 of the 41 cases had no link to the marketplace. "That's a big number, 13, with no link," says Daniel Lucey, an infectious disease specialist at Georgetown University. Earlier reports from Chinese health authorities and the World Health Organization had said the first patient had onset of symptoms on 8 December 2019—and those reports simply said "most" cases had links to the seafood market, which was closed on 1 January. Lucey says if the new data are accurate, the first human infections must have occurred in November 2019—if not earlier—because there is an incubation time between infection and symptoms surfacing. If so, the virus possibly spread silently between people in Wuhan—and perhaps elsewhere—before the cluster of cases from the city's now-infamous Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market was discovered in late December. "The virus came into that marketplace before it came out of that marketplace," Lucey asserts.
The Lancet paper's data also raise questions about the accuracy of the initial information China provided, Lucey says. At the beginning of the outbreak, the main official source of public information were notices from the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission. Its notices on 11 January started to refer to the 41 patients as the only confirmed cases and the count remained the same until 18 January. The notices did not state that the seafood market was the source, but they repeatedly noted that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission and that most cases linked to the market. Because the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission noted that diagnostic tests had confirmed these 41 cases by 10 January and officials presumably knew the case histories of each patient, "China must have realized the epidemic did not originate in that Wuhan Huanan seafood market," Lucey tells ScienceInsider. (Lucey also spoke about his concerns in an interview published online yesterday by Science Speaks, a project of the Infectious Disease Society of America.)
Kristian Andersen, an evolutionary biologist at the Scripps Research Institute who has analyzed sequences of 2019-nCoV to try to clarify its origin, says the 1 December timing of the first confirmed case was "an interesting tidbit" in The Lancet paper. "The scenario of somebody being infected outside the market and then later bringing it to the market is one of the three scenarios we have considered that is still consistent with the data," he says. "It's entirely plausible given our current data and knowledge." The other two scenarios are that the origin was a group of infected animals or a single animal that came into that marketplace. Andersen posted his analysis of 27 available genomes of 2019-nCoV on 25 January on a virology research website. It suggests they had a "most recent common ancestor"—meaning a common source—as early as 1 October 2019.
Bin Cao of Capital Medical University, the corresponding author of The Lancet article and a pulmonary specialist, wrote in an email to ScienceInsider that he and his co-authors "appreciate the criticism" from Lucey. "Now It seems clear that [the] seafood market is not the only origin of the virus," he wrote. "But to be honest, we still do not know where the virus came from now." Lucey notes that the discovery of the coronavirus that causes Middle East respiratory syndrome, a sometimes fatal disease that occurs sporadically, came from a patient in Saudi Arabia in June 2012, although later studies traced it back to an earlier hospital outbreak of unexplained pneumonia in Jordan in April 2012. Stored samples from two people who died in Jordan confirmed they had been infected with the virus. Retrospective analyses of blood samples in China from people and animals—including vendors from other animal markets—may reveal a clear picture of where the 2019-nCoV originated, he suggests. "There might be a clear signal among the noise," he says.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 27, 2020, 05:44:39 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 27, 2020, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 27, 2020, 12:47:35 PM
I don;t know where we can get reliable news and objective information but so far lewrockwell and Joe Rappaport's blog keeps me sane. Also Globalresearch.ca is pretty good.
Do you have a link to Joe Rappaport's blog Martin?
https://nomorefakenews.com/ :toth:
Thanks Martin. I didn't know who Jon Rappaport was.
As for Global Research it is published by Michel Chossudovsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky. Chossudovsky is the son of a Russian Jewish émigré, the career United Nations diplomat and academic Evgeny Chossudovsky, and an Irish Protestant, Rachel Sullivan. Besides publishing other conspiracy theories in 2017, the Centre for Research on Globalization was accused by NATO information warfare specialists of playing a key role in the spread of pro-Russian propaganda.
Jon Rappaport, another member of the tribe, has contributed quite a few articles to the conspiracy theory web site Global Research. https://www.globalresearch.ca/search?q=Jon+Rappaport&x=11&y=10
Lew Rockwell is a libertarian and a self-professed anarcho-capitalist, he founded (and is chairman of) the Ludwig von Mises Institute, a non-profit dedicated to promoting the Austrian School of economics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Rockwell
I don't know if Rockwell is a member of the tribe or not but Austrian economics is Jewish economics. Ludwig von Mises was a member of the tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises. Murray Rothbard, another member of the tribe, coined the phrase anarcho-capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism.
Austrian Economics still is 'Jewish' Economics.
https://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/austrian-economics-still-is-jewish-economics/
Lots of conspiracy theories coming from the tribe.
As for the web site From Rome it is published by Br. Alexis Flavian Bugnolo, who says "Hence, we profess allegiance and obedience to the only true Vicar of Jesus Christ, on Earth, Pope Benedict XVI."
https://fromrome.info/about/
I guess Br. Bugnolo gets ignored so much that it took Novus Ordo Watch to refute him. In this article titled No, a True Pope CANNOT be Deposed: Reply to Br. Alexis Bugnolo they say "The only trouble is: The idea that a valid Pope can be removed from office is heresy (Gallicanism). One of the most persistent promoters of this heresy is Br. Alexis Bugnolo."
https://novusordowatch.org/2018/09/no-true-pope-cannot-be-deposed/
I think KK needs to rename this forum "the conspiracy theory forum".
Quote from: diaduit on March 31, 2020, 12:38:29 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 31, 2020, 12:24:20 PM
Quote from: diaduit on March 31, 2020, 10:26:35 AMMy Dad is 82 and has survived a brain aneurism, triple bypass and countless other problems and he never ever once complained. IF he dies because God triggers a heart attack or a massive stroke or whatever reason then please God all I ask is that he gets the last rites. However I am pumping him full of immune boosting natural remedies so he isn't another statistic from corona virus, the brainchild of evil men.
Silly goose. He's going to steal the inheritance of your grandchildren.
QuoteI don't think we should have a lockdown because 90% of people will survive it but I also think the Gov should throw every resource into protecting the 10% and if that means more taxes well so be it.
I just can't tally with the idea that the old are going to die anyway so let them get the virus and be done with it. Horrible and also very easy to say once your under 70.
It's also one of the most alien ideas to Catholicism one could think of.
I know given they future have a God given right to street lights, roads and a health service , ya know coz their under 70!!
As for pro life, its a dam good argument against this mentality of let them die anyway, its called the 6th commandment, either we believe in it or we don't.
Lastly, given the Eugenicists for a century have been banging on about the burden of those that are chronically ill or elderly, I know which side I want to be on.
No more than the elderly have a right to expect to live for ever, humanity has no right to expect a cushy existence either.
This is a bit harsh. No-one here is saying "let them die anyway" in the way you imply. Elderly people with serious underlying health conditions catch flu and die in their tens of thousands every winter and the world doesn't go into lockdown because of it.
As a boomer who smokes tobacco, I wouldn't dream of expecting the world to stop in order to protect me from flu. So why would I for the corona flu, or any other illness for that matter?
Besides, they're not locking down the world in order to save the lives of old people, or young people. That's just the excuse. Follow the link posted by James and the figures for Europe show no increase in death rates, even with the corona flu.
I'd like to see what the theology manuals have to say about locking down 3 billion people across the world for a flu bug that isn't resulting in any more deaths in than normal in Europe.
People who live in a fake world with no real property, no real inheritances, no real grandchildren, and no real life are very quick to opine on how real life ought to be.
Just as people who are sickly and weak so often have the most opinions on health.
And people who wax poetic on the simpler things in life are horrified by someone who actually enjoys real poverty.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 31, 2020, 01:54:43 PMElderly people with serious underlying health conditions catch flu and die in their tens of thousands every winter and the world doesn't go into lockdown because of it.
There are younger people dying too. A baby died in Chicago just two days ago.
In my city, we have 6 children right now in ICU in one of our most famous pediatric hospitals, all due to the virus. Most of them were healthy. This is not a flu season blown out of proportion. Unfortunately, it's something more serious.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 31, 2020, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 31, 2020, 01:54:43 PMElderly people with serious underlying health conditions catch flu and die in their tens of thousands every winter and the world doesn't go into lockdown because of it.
There are younger people dying too. A baby died in Chicago just two days ago.
In my city, we have 6 children right now in ICU in one of our most famous pediatric hospitals, all due to the virus. Most of them were healthy. This is not a flu season blown out of proportion. Unfortunately, it's something more serious.
Unfortunately, children do die of the flu, even in a normal year.
For example, according to figures from the CDC, 179 children died of flu in the United States from 2018/19. And during 2009/10 the number was even higher at 282.
As the article points out -
Quote
Children who have asthma, diabetes, or other chronic medical conditions are more susceptible to acute respiratory difficulties resulting from a flu infection.
However, even healthy children without any underlying medical condition or immune deficiency can get a severe flu infection. These infections can advance rapidly or can cause prolonged illness, potentially resulting in death.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/deaths-from-flu-2633829
QuoteNot taking any action to protect the elderly and letting them die of the virus because they're going to steal their grandchildren's inheritance? Unacceptable.
Non sequitur. The sanctify of the lives of the elderly is not in dispute. But there are real moral question we are facing (and yes, the sanctity of life factors in):
1. Can we utilize usury to save the lives of old people? Never.
2. OK. What about taxes? Well when you shut down an economy, taxes drop dramatically.
3. OK. What about a wealth tax? Can we raid the retirement accounts of people since this is where the money is? And if you do that, keep in mind the young have minimal balances and all the money is concentrated with people fixing to retire. Can you raid their retirement accounts to save old people?
4. Can you shut down an entire economy and impoverish 10's of millions to prevent some deaths of old people?
Real questions.
Quote from: james03 on March 31, 2020, 03:12:28 PM
QuoteNot taking any action to protect the elderly and letting them die of the virus because they're going to steal their grandchildren's inheritance? Unacceptable.
Non sequitur. The sanctify of the lives of the elderly is not in dispute. But there are real moral question we are facing (and yes, the sanctity of life factors in):
1. Can we utilize usury to save the lives of old people? Never.
2. OK. What about taxes? Well when you shut down an economy, taxes drop dramatically.
3. OK. What about a wealth tax? Can we raid the retirement accounts of people since this is where the money is? And if you do that, keep in mind the young have minimal balances and all the money is concentrated with people fixing to retire. Can you raid their retirement accounts to save old people?
4. Can you shut down an entire economy and impoverish 10's of millions to prevent some deaths of old people?
Real questions.
James, I'm not actually sure that lockdown is the answer but I'm not an expert. I just don't like the glib tone about the elderly seeing as it includes my dad and other people who have given us what we have through hard work so I don't see them "stealing" anything.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 31, 2020, 02:59:14 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 31, 2020, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on March 31, 2020, 01:54:43 PMElderly people with serious underlying health conditions catch flu and die in their tens of thousands every winter and the world doesn't go into lockdown because of it.
There are younger people dying too. A baby died in Chicago just two days ago.
In my city, we have 6 children right now in ICU in one of our most famous pediatric hospitals, all due to the virus. Most of them were healthy. This is not a flu season blown out of proportion. Unfortunately, it's something more serious.
Unfortunately, children do die of the flu, even in a normal year.
For example, according to figures from the CDC, 179 children died of flu in the United States from 2018/19. And during 2009/10 the number was even higher at 282.
As the article points out -
Quote
Children who have asthma, diabetes, or other chronic medical conditions are more susceptible to acute respiratory difficulties resulting from a flu infection.
However, even healthy children without any underlying medical condition or immune deficiency can get a severe flu infection. These infections can advance rapidly or can cause prolonged illness, potentially resulting in death.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/deaths-from-flu-2633829
Exactly.
Children die of the seasonal flu for which there are vaccines and treatments. However, for this new virus we don't have any vaccine or any proven treatment. If we don't do anything to flatten the curve, it's likely that even more children will die in the following weeks, including healthy ones, not just old and sick people.
Quote from: diaduit on March 31, 2020, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: james03 on March 31, 2020, 03:12:28 PM
QuoteNot taking any action to protect the elderly and letting them die of the virus because they're going to steal their grandchildren's inheritance? Unacceptable.
Non sequitur. The sanctify of the lives of the elderly is not in dispute. But there are real moral question we are facing (and yes, the sanctity of life factors in):
1. Can we utilize usury to save the lives of old people? Never.
2. OK. What about taxes? Well when you shut down an economy, taxes drop dramatically.
3. OK. What about a wealth tax? Can we raid the retirement accounts of people since this is where the money is? And if you do that, keep in mind the young have minimal balances and all the money is concentrated with people fixing to retire. Can you raid their retirement accounts to save old people?
4. Can you shut down an entire economy and impoverish 10's of millions to prevent some deaths of old people?
Real questions.
James, I'm not actually sure that lockdown is the answer but I'm not an expert. I just don't like the glib tone about the elderly seeing as it includes my dad and other people who have given us what we have through hard work so I don't see them "stealing" anything.
Answering James's questions:
1. Usury has been a part of modern economy since the Renaissance. I'm not sure how you expect to save anyone's life in our present predicament without being plagued by usury. Of course, I would also like a usury-free economy but that's perhaps nothing more than a pipe-dream for the foreseeable future;
2, 3 and 4. The lock-down, as I've said before, cannot be prolonged for more than a month or two. No country can take more than that without completely tanking the economy and creating uncontrollable social unrest and poverty. No government wants that. The point is to be draconian during a few weeks, flatten the curve, save the healthcare system from collapsing and then progressively return to a more normal order of things, being able to manage and control the spread of the plague until we have proven treatments and eventually a vaccine. In principle, and I haven't read anything to the contrary at least here, no retirement accounts should be raided.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 31, 2020, 03:50:55 PM
Children die of the seasonal flu for which there are vaccines and treatments. However, for this new virus we don't have any vaccine or any proven treatment. If we don't do anything to flatten the curve, it's likely that even more children will die in the following weeks, including healthy ones, not just old and sick people.
You're speculating. And where did this term 'flatten the curve' come from? Did someone make it up?
But the figures will tell, when they have been analysed properly. So far, there are no increases in death rates in Europe this year over any other year. People who would have died of an H1N1 flu are dying of the Corona flu instead.
Quote1. Usury has been a part of modern economy since the Renaissance. I'm not sure how you expect to save anyone's life in our present predicament without being plagued by usury. Of course, I would also like a usury-free economy but that's perhaps nothing more than a pipe-dream for the foreseeable future;
Murder has been apart of society since Cain and Able. While I'd like to see a murder-free economy, if we have to gun down a few people in cold blood, well, what are you going to do?
Here's the deal. Shutting down the economy does absolutely nothing if you allow one carrier to remain. That's the problem with exponential growth. But it is also not free, as we will soon learn.
In other news, the Germans are going to start sampling their general population for Wuhan anti-bodies (immunity). Can you imagine if a substantial part of the population is already immune?
QuoteThe lock-down, as I've said before, cannot be prolonged for more than a month or two.
But what if old people die because you lift the lock down? That would be immoral.
USA: 187,000 cases. 3,850 dead. On track to double every 2 weeks. Rough guess, 50,000 dead by May.
Italy: 106,000 cases. 12,428 dead. That's more dead in a month than die from the flu in a year. Rate is more than linear, but I think the doubling rate is now over 8 days, probably 12 days, which is a big improvement. Rough guess, 30,000 dead by May.
France not looking so good. I was hoping they were using the quinine therapy. Does anyone know of a country that is heavily using this treatment?
QuoteI just don't like the glib tone about the elderly seeing as it includes my dad and other people who have given us what we have through hard work so I don't see them "stealing" anything.
Fair point. The sanctity of life applies to old people.
I don't think I used the term stealing, maybe I did, but the fact remains it is immoral to use usury to transfer the costs of our actions on the backs of our unborn grandbabies. It is society in general that is now doing that. We started with $2 TRILLION added to the debt slavery of our grandkids, and now we are told it will be ANOTHER $2 TRILLION. Add in our usury debt payments, and double that to $8 TRILLION. That means reducing our unborn grandbabies into debt serfs with little benefits from society like reliable roads, police, street lights, decent salary, clean water, and ultimately food. It didn't work in Greece, Venezuela, and Argentina. It's coming here. Though I think we'll devolve into bloody civil war before the end.
Update:
Sister's test came back negative. She wishes not, because -- now recovered -- she's answering the call for former medical workers to return to the field. She's awaiting the okay for that and had hoped she would have the immunity.
3 International Studies Find Chloroquine has 100% Success Rate Treating Coronavirus in 6 Days
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy4AJP8nAPg[/yt]
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 08:56:59 PM
3 International Studies Find Chloroquine has 100% Success Rate Treating Coronavirus in 6 Days
Maybe the madness will finally stop someday.
Quote from: King Wenceslas on March 31, 2020, 11:00:11 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 08:56:59 PM
3 International Studies Find Chloroquine has 100% Success Rate Treating Coronavirus in 6 Days
Maybe the madness will finally stop someday.
*** Breaking News ***It has been announced on CNN, CBS, BBC and all major news outlets that the lock down is over !!
Quote from: clau clau on April 01, 2020, 02:00:06 AM
Quote from: King Wenceslas on March 31, 2020, 11:00:11 PM
Quote from: mikemac on March 31, 2020, 08:56:59 PM
3 International Studies Find Chloroquine has 100% Success Rate Treating Coronavirus in 6 Days
Maybe the madness will finally stop someday.
*** Breaking News ***
It has been announced on CNN, CBS, BBC and all major news outlets that the lock down is over !!
Wish this whole thing was one big April fools ;)
So, the tests being used come back positive for everyday strains of coronavirus. They can't distinguish. Also, everyone who dies who tests positive is counted as a COVID-19 death. 7-15% of all acute respiratory conditions come back positive for coronaviruses, and since most a carriers are asymptomatic, its a fair inference that at least 7-15% of the population at any time will test positive for some kind of coronavirus. So, taking an average total number of deaths per day in Italy of 1750, we'd expect on average around 123-263 deaths a day In Italy who test positive for coronaviruses and therefore for COVID-19. Therefore, even if these were "normal" times, we'd expect 123-263 COVID-19 deaths based on the definition of a "COVID-19 death". Of course this average total number of deaths per day can swing wildly, and this 7-15% is likely too low, so this 123-263 number going into the 500s or even higher over some arbitrary period is not going to be unusual.
My current understanding is that COVID-19 is a real and particularly aggressive strain of coronavirus, but that it doesn't kill people: rather, it rapidly speeds up the deaths of those with already weak immune systems and poor respiratory conditions. If the media wasn't talking about it the general population wouldn't really notice a difference, except perhaps that it was a particularly bad flu season. Flu is ordinarily difficult to cope with. Exceptions would be places like China and Northern Italy, where air pollution is high and people have poor respiratory conditions; in these places people would notice that the sick and elderly are dying at a higher rate than usual. But this is more a reflection of the overall health of a population, not some indication of an extremely deadly virus.
So basically the response should have been to quarantine people who are already very ill in the hope that they don't contract the virus, and advise elderly people to take extra caution this flu season. Nobody else should have been affected. Lockdowns are more an indication of governments' neurotic need for control, media's obsession with spectacle, and populations' tendency toward hysteria. On the whole, psychologically, the fact it's been so easy to tell so many people to stay at home I think is an indication of widespread exhaustion in modern society. I think people are overstressed and overworked, and there's an unconscious need for a protracted holiday.
*** Breaking News ***
COVID-19 has been purified!
Scientists at the Robert Koch institute were able to purify the virus from an infected host, obtaining a true viral isolate for the first time in history! They were then able to replicate it in cultures of fully healthy cells in a controlled experiment. And they were, on injecting a large viral load into healthy hosts, able to reproduce with consistency the same symptoms of disease, where the control group injected with a sterile solution remained unaffected. This is a scientific breakthrough of the centruy! They've also published electron micrographs showing full, isolated virions from this purified solution. Amazing. I retract all my criticisms. I've been proved wrong about COVID-19 and all virology.
The tests were long since known to be unreliable (many stories back in January from the Chinese testing 4 times before it showed up positive). But if a new kink to their unreliability is that they show positive for other coronaviruses then it opens up the possibility that Covid19 is more deadly than thought. Potentially the asymptomatic cases were actually just regular coronaviruses (the cold) and so those 90%+ that have little to no symptoms actually never had Covid19 at all, despite the test labeling them as Covid19 patients. This is all complete speculation, of course, and I attempt no guess at with what probability this is what is going on.
But since the tests have been known to be unreliable its basically impossible to have any good idea of how dangerous it is in terms of percentages. That is something to be attempted to be estimated at years later once we look at antibodies in the population.
The only salient matter is whether or not hospitals are experiencing a sudden severe overload of ARDS patients in ways that doctors have never seen before. If yes and if happening in cities across the world then something dangerous is afoot. If not then move on, nothing to see here.
Covid19 yet to impact Europe's overall mortality
Year-to-date statistics show excess mortality lower than previous years
https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/30/covid19-yet-to-impact-europes-overall-mortality/
Quote from: Kreuzritter on April 01, 2020, 04:38:05 AM
*** Breaking News ***
COVID-19 has been purified!
Scientists at the Robert Koch institute were able to purify the virus from an infected host, obtaining a true viral isolate for the first time in history! They were then able to replicate it in cultures of fully healthy cells in a controlled experiment. And they were, on injecting a large viral load into healthy hosts, able to reproduce with consistency the same symptoms of disease, where the control group injected with a sterile solution remained unaffected. This is a scientific breakthrough of the centruy! They've also published electron micrographs showing full, isolated virions from this purified solution. Amazing. I retract all my criticisms. I've been proved wrong about COVID-19 and all virology.
:rofl: April Fool.
:rofl:
Quote from: John Lamb on April 01, 2020, 06:11:21 AM
Covid19 yet to impact Europe's overall mortality
Year-to-date statistics show excess mortality lower than previous years
https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/30/covid19-yet-to-impact-europes-overall-mortality/
(https://off-guardian.org/wp-content/medialibrary/mortality-week-12-2020-large-768x665.jpg)
(https://off-guardian.org/wp-content/medialibrary/mortality-week-2-2017-large-768x661.jpg)
That's pretty damning.
Of course they'll claim it's due to the success o flockdowns.
Except they're claiming at the same time hosptials are overflowing and hundreds of thousands of "cases".
So were hospitals overflowing in 2017-2018 with a flu season that took far more lives?
If yes, why's this special? If not, is that no idnicative of my earlier assertion that if hospitals are overflowing, it's because of a narrative perpetuated by government, media and medical mouthpieces that lead to people and hospitals treating this like a seriously deadly disease.
If the same narrative had been going around in 2017-2018 about flu, would hospitals not also have been swamped, and would not doctors and nurses have said they'd never seen anything like it before?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on April 01, 2020, 07:36:35 AM
So were hospitals overflowing in 2017-2018 with a flu season that took far more lives?
If yes, why's this special?
Yes, they were. See my other post
here (https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=23644.msg496827#msg496827).
Quote from: John Lamb on April 01, 2020, 06:11:21 AM
Covid19 yet to impact Europe's overall mortality
Year-to-date statistics show excess mortality lower than previous years
https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/30/covid19-yet-to-impact-europes-overall-mortality/
Here is what 'Euromomo,' the organization collecting and mapping the numbers, has said about it:
QuoteNote concerning COVID-19 related mortality as part of the all-cause mortality figures reported by EuroMOMO
Over the past few days, the EuroMOMO hub has received many questions about the weekly all-cause mortality data and the possible contribution of any COVID-19 related mortality. Some wonder why no increased mortality is observed in the reported mortality figures for the COVID-19 affected countries.
The answer is that increased mortality that may occur primarily at subnational level or within smaller focal areas, and/or concentrated within smaller age groups, may not be detectable at the national level, even more so not in the pooled analysis at European level, given the large total population denominator. Furthermore, there is always a few weeks of delay in death registration and reporting. Hence, the EuroMOMO mortality figures for the most recent weeks must be interpreted with some caution.
Therefore, although increased mortality may not be immediately observable in the EuroMOMO figures, this does not mean that increased mortality does not occur in some areas or in some age groups, including mortality related to COVID-19.
I think this source will be very interesting and helpful in the near future for assessing whether this is really a deadly pandemic that merits extending the radical measures. For the time being Im going to accept their own reasoning.
Their reasoning might turn out to be sound, but if this were the apocalyptic pandemic the media has made it out to be — substantially different from other flu outbreaks — surely it would show up in the statistics already . . . but we'll see.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on April 01, 2020, 07:36:35 AM
Of course they'll claim it's due to the success o flockdowns.
I think that's the perfect typo. It's what we should call what the Church is doing to the flock.
Quote from: Graham on April 01, 2020, 08:25:00 AM
The answer is that increased mortality that may occur primarily at subnational level or within smaller focal areas, and/or concentrated within smaller age groups, may not be detectable at the national level, even more so not in the pooled analysis at European level, given the large total population denominator.
And? Translation: COVID-19 deaths are not impacting overall mortality because their numbers, concentrated in small and particular groups, are well within the norm of annual mortality from "infectious diseases" and not adding to them. What we've been saying all along. Ceteris paribus, massively increased mortality "at subnational level or within smaller focal areas, and/or concentrated within smaller age groups" is going to show up at the national level.
QuoteFurthermore, there is always a few weeks of delay in death registration and reporting.
It's already been over a month in Italy of "high" death tolls of COVID-19 "cases". And it's not showing up.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on April 01, 2020, 08:40:04 AM
Quote from: Graham on April 01, 2020, 08:25:00 AM
The answer is that increased mortality that may occur primarily at subnational level or within smaller focal areas, and/or concentrated within smaller age groups, may not be detectable at the national level, even more so not in the pooled analysis at European level, given the large total population denominator.
And? Translation: COVID-19 deaths are not impacting overall mortality because their numbers, concentrated in small and particular groups, are well within the norm of annual mortality from "infectious diseases" and not adding to them. What we've been saying all along. Ceteris paribus, massively increased mortality "at subnational level or within smaller focal areas, and/or concentrated within smaller age groups" is going to show up at the national level.
QuoteFurthermore, there is always a few weeks of delay in death registration and reporting.
It's already been over a month in Italy of "high" death tolls of COVID-19 "cases". And it's not showing up.
See, that makes some sense to me, but I'm not a statistician nor do I have behind-the-scenes knowledge of their methodology, so for the time being I'm going to go with the people who actually collect and interpret the data. If the death rate continues to reveal nothing special I will reassess that.
QuoteIt's already been over a month in Italy of "high" death tolls of COVID-19 "cases". And it's not showing up.
It is showing up in Italy. Note the data you posted. 2017 is week 2. If you consult the website, the peak deaths come between Wk. 2 to Wk. 4, or thereabouts, each year. Italy and Europe already had their flu peak during these weeks in 2020, though this was a very mild flu season. Now Italy is getting a second peak.
One theory I read is that since this was such a mild flu season for Europe, there is a larger pool of susceptible sick and old people around to die from COVID.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 01, 2020, 05:24:46 AM
The only salient matter is whether or not hospitals are experiencing a sudden severe overload of ARDS patients in ways that doctors have never seen before. If yes and if happening in cities across the world then something dangerous is afoot. If not then move on, nothing to see here.
Right. For evidence, see the other thread where doctor in charge of Elmhurst Hospital in NYC which is supposed to be the "epicenter of the epicenter" admits that the video showing no one in the emergency room is real.
Apparently Sweden is taking very few measures (https://unherd.com/2020/03/all-eyes-on-the-swedish-coronavirus-experiment/). If they're wrong, their imported hordes of bomb happy Mohammadans will just a side issue of a side issue, but they could be right.
Update on St. Peter's Fraternity: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/priests-seminarians-at-traditional-catholic-order-almost-all-recovered-from-coronavirus
(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/Traditional_Latin_Mass_810_500_75_s_c1.jpg)
"OPFENBACH, Germany, March 31, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) – The German seminary of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), a traditionalist community of priests and seminarians, has reported that the coronavirus outbreak within its seminary "seems to have been overcome."
While the seminary community in Wigratzbad is still in quarantine, "there are no longer any priests or seminarians in the hospital, and only a few seriously ill people remain," the official French-speaking website of the seminary stated.
On the evening of March 13, the seminary had first announced that a priest, who stayed at the there as a guest, had contracted the virus, as reported by LifeSiteNews. At the time, the community, which is dedicated to the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass, had notified the public that all Masses in Wigratzbad would take place without the seminarians joining.
"With the powerful help of faith, hope and charity, we do not let ourselves be discouraged. In a few days, the first healed ones will be able to take over from the newly sick, to maintain the spiritual and material life of the house," the seminary community wrote.
Since God only allows evil for the sake of a greater good, the community expressed its confidence in the Lord, "who alone is able to give meaning to our temporary existence on this earth."
Since the reception of Holy Communion on the tongue had already been banned, the FSSP declared that only the celebrant would receive the Eucharist. The faithful were encouraged to do a spiritual communion.
On the next day, the French blog of the seminary, which has a German-speaking and a French-speaking section, clarified that the priest first infected with COVID-19 was from Italy.
"The whole seminary has been in strict confinement for a week, because the disease spreads rapidly. A dozen priests and seminarians are showing flu-like symptoms, forcing us to completely reorganize schedules and services. Cooks, cleaners, secretaries ... we have to do everything by ourselves, but everyone is generous and adapts without difficulty."
The community was using the quarantine to meditate on the meaning of life.
"Life is short and fragile, and if one is worried about one's health, one must be even more concerned about one's salvation. The invisible threat of illness stimulates us to trust more in God, and to increase our prayers and penances even more," the French blog wrote.
On March 31, the website reported that everyone was able to gradually "get back to work, and classes have resumed more or less as normal."
The seminary community thanked the Lord "for having saved us from the most serious consequences of the illness, and we remain, of course, sensitive to the distress that now affects the whole world."
The priests and seminarians said they continue to pray "for the sick, especially the dying, as well as for the nursing staff and all those who devote themselves generously in these difficult times."
"We also commend to your prayers our last sick people, because the virus still causes much discomfort and worry. May it allow all of us to renew our total surrender into the hands of the Lord," the community added.
Update: Was it really at only 800,000 just about a day ago? It's crossed 900,000 with over 45,000 deaths and a death rate of over 5%. The CDC estimates the death rate from the flu is 0.1%, which makes the Wuhan CoronaVirus 50 times deadlier than the flu. America crosses 200,000 cases. Spain and Italy are the others above 100,000. China, probably.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 31, 2020, 09:28:59 AM
Quote from: Xavier on March 31, 2020, 06:21:03 AM
Total Cases cross 800,000. Deaths near 40,000. Death rate stays consistently near 5%. 205 Territories infected.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgylp3Td1Bw
How can you just add up "cases" when the numbers of "cases" for different countries are not not even using the same definition of "case", let alone the same diagnostic procedures?
Kreuzritter, respectfully, if you believe viruses don't exist, nor cause deaths, you and I probably will have to agree to disagree on this.
Viruses certainly exist, they cause deaths, and there are evil scientists who isolate and use them for that very purpose, first in laboratories on animals, and then in the world.
Viruses are known by the effects they cause. SARS-COV-2 is a virus that infects the lungs and is known by its symptoms.
"Coronaviruses are a group of related viruses that cause diseases in mammals and birds. In humans, coronaviruses cause respiratory tract infections that can be mild, such as some cases of the common cold (among other possible causes, predominantly rhinoviruses), and others that can be lethal, such as SARS, MERS, and COVID-19." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus
"Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is an infectious disease caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).[7] The disease was first identified in December 2019 in Wuhan, the capital of China's Hubei province, and has since spread globally, resulting in the ongoing 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic.[8][9] Common symptoms include fever, cough, and shortness of breath.[10] Other symptoms may include muscle pain, sputum production, diarrhea, sore throat, loss of smell, and abdominal pain.[4][11][12]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019
If supposedly it came from people eating bats, then the least that could be done is those bat meat markets should be shut. The second theory is that it came from pangolins, which are also known and documented in lab studies to have had the virus. Well, they too should not then be eaten anymore, because of the known risk of transmission. But while more investigation is necessary, and given the Chinese Communist Party's cover-up, and cruel persecution of Dr Li Wen Liang, it's not at all unlikely that both the bats and the first people known to have the virus were deliberately injected with it.
Meanwhile, the WHO was falsely claiming not that long ago that Coronavirus 19 does not transmit human-to-human, covering up for the Communist Party: "Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, China." There will have to be a reckoning for this later on.
Edit:
"Did pangolins transmit coronavirus to humans? Could be, but scientists still not sure
Research so far indicates that the pangolin, a scaly mammal that is illegally traded, was most likely an intermediary between bats and humans, but not the only one.
Bengaluru: Ever since the novel coronavirus started spreading Covid-19 far and wide, researchers have been scrambling to figure out how this virus was transmitted to humans.
The first known case in a human stemmed from a wet market in Wuhan, China, where not only was fresh meat available for sale, but there was also trade in legal and illegal wild animals. Genetic analysis of the virus, also known as the SARS-CoV-2 due to its similarity to the original Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) virus, has revealed that the virus originated in bats.
But how it came from bats to humans, whether directly or through an intermediate animal, is yet to be determined. And understanding this is key to figuring out how to control the disease and prevent it." https://theprint.in/science/did-pangolins-transmit-coronavirus-to-humans-could-be-but-scientists-still-not-sure/389611/
From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says
"China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths it's suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials.
The officials asked not to be identified because the report is secret, and they declined to detail its contents. But the thrust, they said, is that China's public reporting on cases and deaths is intentionally incomplete. Two of the officials said the report concludes that China's numbers are fake.
The report was received by the White House last week, one of the officials said.
The outbreak began in China's Hubei province in late 2019, but the country has publicly reported only about 82,000 cases and 3,300 deaths, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. That compares to more than 189,000 cases and more than 4,000 deaths in the U.S., which has the largest publicly reported outbreak in the world.
Communications staff at the White House and the Chinese embassy in Washington didn't immediately respond to requests for comment.
"The reality is that we could have been better off if China had been more forthcoming," Vice President Mike Pence said Wednesday on CNN. "What appears evident now is that long before the world learned in December that China was dealing with this, and maybe as much as a month earlier than that, that the outbreak was real in China.
While China eventually imposed a strict lockdown beyond those of less autocratic nations, there has been considerable skepticism toward China's reported numbers, both outside and within the country. The Chinese government has repeatedly revised its methodology for counting cases, for weeks excluding people without symptoms entirely, and only on Tuesday added more than 1,500 asymptomatic cases to its total.
Stacks of thousands of urns outside funeral homes in Hubei province have driven public doubt in Beijing's reporting.
Republican lawmakers in the U.S. have been particularly harsh about China's role in the outbreak. Enhancing Beijing's role in the pandemic could be politically helpful to President Donald Trump, who has sought to shift blame for the U.S. outbreak away from his administration's delays in achieving widespread testing for the virus and mobilizing greater production of supplies such as face masks and hospital ventilators.
"The claim that the United States has more coronavirus deaths than China is false," Senator Ben Sasse, a Nebraska Republican, said in a statement after Bloomberg News published its report. "Without commenting on any classified information, this much is painfully obvious: The Chinese Communist Party has lied, is lying, and will continue to lie about coronavirus to protect the regime."
Deborah Birx, the State Department immunologist advising the White House on its response to the outbreak, said Tuesday that China's public reporting influenced assumptions elsewhere in the world about the nature of the virus.
"The medical community made -- interpreted the Chinese data as: This was serious, but smaller than anyone expected," she said at a news conference on Tuesday. "Because I think probably we were missing a significant amount of the data, now that what we see happened to Italy and see what happened to Spain."
China isn't the only country with suspect public reporting. Western officials have pointed to Iran, Russia, Indonesia and especially North Korea, which has not reported a single case of the disease, as probable under-counts. Others including Saudi Arabia and Egypt may also be playing down their numbers.
U.S. Secretary of State Michael Pompeo has publicly urged China and other nations to be transparent about their outbreaks. He has repeatedly accused China of covering up the extent of the problem and being slow to share information, especially in the weeks after the virus first emerged, and blocking offers of help from American experts.
"This data set matters," he said at a news conference in Washington on Tuesday. The development of medical therapies and public-health measures to combat the virus "so that we can save lives depends on the ability to have confidence and information about what has actually transpired," he said.
"I would urge every nation: Do your best to collect the data. Do your best to share that information," he said. "We're doing that."
The trigger effect (from 1978)
Note the ominous location is the opening. Here's a clue: It does not exist anymore (aka: ground zero)
see:
Quotehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XetplHcM7aQ
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XetplHcM7aQ[/yt]
Excerpt from: https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devastating-lies/
"December 30: Dr. Li Wenliang sent a message to a group of other doctors warning them about a possible outbreak of an illness that resembled severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), urging them to take protective measures against infection.
December 31: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares, "The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infection." This is the opposite of the belief of the doctors working on patients in Wuhan, and two doctors were already suspected of contracting the virus.
Three weeks after doctors first started noticing the cases, China contacts the World Health Organization.
Tao Lina, a public-health expert and former official with Shanghai's center for disease control and prevention, tells the South China Morning Post, "I think we are [now] quite capable of killing it in the beginning phase, given China's disease control system, emergency handling capacity and clinical medicine support."
January 1: The Wuhan Public Security Bureau issued summons to Dr. Li Wenliang, accusing him of "spreading rumors." Two days later, at a police station, Dr. Li signed a statement acknowledging his "misdemeanor" and promising not to commit further "unlawful acts." Seven other people are arrested on similar charges and their fate is unknown.
Also that day, "after several batches of genome sequence results had been returned to hospitals and submitted to health authorities, an employee of one genomics company received a phone call from an official at the Hubei Provincial Health Commission, ordering the company to stop testing samples from Wuhan related to the new disease and destroy all existing samples."
According to a New York Times study of cellphone data from China, 175,000 people leave Wuhan that day. According to global travel data research firm OAG, 21 countries have direct flights to Wuhan. In the first quarter of 2019 for comparison, 13,267 air passengers traveled from Wuhan, China, to destinations in the United States, or about 4,422 per month. The U.S. government would not bar foreign nationals who had traveled to China from entering the country for another month.
January 2: One study of patients in Wuhan can only connect 27 of 41 infected patients to exposure to the Huanan seafood market — indicating human-to-human transmission away from the market. A report written later that month concludes, "evidence so far indicates human transmission for 2019-nCoV. We are concerned that 2019-nCoV could have acquired the ability for efficient human transmission."
Also on this day, the Wuhan Institute of Virology completed mapped the genome of the virus. The Chinese government would not announce that breakthrough for another week.
January 3: The Chinese government continued efforts to suppress all information about the virus: "China's National Health Commission, the nation's top health authority, ordered institutions not to publish any information related to the unknown disease, and ordered labs to transfer any samples they had to designated testing institutions, or to destroy them."
Roughly one month after the first cases in Wuhan, the United States government is notified. Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, gets initial reports about a new coronavirus from Chinese colleagues, according to Health and Human Services secretary Alex Azar. Azar, who helped manage the response at HHS to earlier SARS and anthrax outbreaks, told his chief of staff to make sure the National Security Council was informed.
Also on this day, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released another statement, repeating, "As of now, preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections."
January 4: While Chinese authorities continued to insist that the virus could not spread from one person to another, doctors outside that country weren't so convinced. The head of the University of Hong Kong's Centre for Infection, Ho Pak-leung, warned that "the city should implement the strictest possible monitoring system for a mystery new viral pneumonia that has infected dozens of people on the mainland, as it is highly possible that the illness is spreading from human to human."
January 5: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission put out a statement with updated numbers of cases but repeated, "preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections."
January 6: The New York Times publishes its first report about the virus, declaring that "59 people in the central city of Wuhan have been sickened by a pneumonia-like illness." That first report included these comments:
Wang Linfa, an expert on emerging infectious diseases at the Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore, said he was frustrated that scientists in China were not allowed to speak to him about the outbreak. Dr. Wang said, however, that he thought the virus was likely not spreading from humans to humans because health workers had not contracted the disease. "We should not go into panic mode," he said.
Don't get too mad at Wang Linfa; he was making that assessment based upon the inaccurate information Chinese government was telling the world.
Also that day, the CDC "issued a level 1 travel watch — the lowest of its three levels — for China's outbreak. It said the cause and the transmission mode aren't yet known, and it advised travelers to Wuhan to avoid living or dead animals, animal markets, and contact with sick people."
Also that day, the CDC offered to send a team to China to assist with the investigation. The Chinese government declined, but a WHO team that included two Americans would visit February 16.
January 8: Chinese medical authorities claim to have identified the virus. Those authorities claim and Western media continue to repeat, "there is no evidence that the new virus is readily spread by humans, which would make it particularly dangerous, and it has not been tied to any deaths."
The official statement from the World Health Organization declares, "Preliminary identification of a novel virus in a short period of time is a notable achievement and demonstrates China's increased capacity to manage new outbreaks . . . WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travelers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available."
January 10: After unknowingly treating a patient with the Wuhan coronavirus, Dr. Li Wenliang started coughing and developed a fever. He was hospitalized on January 12. In the following days, Li's condition deteriorated so badly that he was admitted to the intensive care unit and given oxygen support.
The New York Times quotes the Wuhan City Health Commission's declaration that "there is no evidence the virus can spread among humans." Chinese doctors continued to find transmission among family members, contradicting the official statements from the city health commission.
January 11: The Wuhan City Health Commission issues an update declaring, "All 739 close contacts, including 419 medical staff, have undergone medical observation and no related cases have been found . . . No new cases have been detected since January 3, 2020. At present, no medical staff infections have been found, and no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found." They issue a Q&A sheet later that day reemphasizing that "most of the unexplained viral pneumonia cases in Wuhan this time have a history of exposure to the South China seafood market. No clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found."
Also on this day, political leaders in Hubei province, which includes Wuhan, began their regional meeting. The coronavirus was not mentioned over four days of meetings.
January 13: Authorities in Thailand detected the virus in a 61-year-old Chinese woman who was visiting from Wuhan, the first case outside of China. "Thailand's Ministry of Public Health, said the woman had not visited the Wuhan seafood market, and had come down with a fever on Jan. 5. However, the doctor said, the woman had visited a different, smaller market in Wuhan, in which live and freshly slaughtered animals were also sold."
January 14: Wuhan city health authorities release another statement declaring, "Among the close contacts, no related cases were found." Wuhan doctors have known this was false since early December, from the first victim and his wife, who did not visit the market.
The World Health Organization echoes China's assessment: "Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China."
This is five or six weeks after the first evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve02VhrDTrs
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvLx17NNlu0&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR1ew3f0THpLWbBRMqhJFlJCN96NcszhlMppKXRPBVkOd_m8hMPhLW4W4aI[/yt]
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdBt-kaIsOs&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1fF8gV8b-vdgqnx_hoPeIDyPD4MfopTzUq26aB_Kl1s8HdPG-vhJdEc5I[/yt]
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 47: Searching for Immunity Boosters & Possible Lessons From Spanish Flu:
As global COVID-19 infections continue to increase rapidly, Dr. Seheult continues his discussion on possible strategies to promote a robust immune system, including a nod to the past with hydrotherapy techniques. Interestingly, these techniques were used during the Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1918 and there are reports about a significant benefit to patients who participated. Initiating studies or attaining data from randomized controlled trials for techniques practiced in the "pre-antibiotic era" is a challenge.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1LHgyfPPQ8[/yt]
An employee at my current place of employment tested positive for the Covid.
Half the company is shutdown now until early next week. Time off for me. Still getting paid for now.
We're hoping we can ride out this storm and stay in business. A few of our customers have gone out of business completely, never to return.
Still employed "essentially" but hate your job? Consider yourself blessed to still have a job. And who knows how long it will last.
This is from NYC
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUh5GU7WAAAq0KA?format=jpg&name=900x900)
https://www.brighteon.com/9124573e-0b83-4218-9a69-aadb2035f896?fbclid=IwAR1KSlg-8WHlqbOH-TcwyykwS1b5zQoSUO2bh7hMYaVSJGlECffnYRWjep0
Quote from: martin88nyc on April 01, 2020, 02:18:07 PM
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdBt-kaIsOs&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1fF8gV8b-vdgqnx_hoPeIDyPD4MfopTzUq26aB_Kl1s8HdPG-vhJdEc5I[/yt]
Love Amazing Polly, have been following her for about a year.
March 16th, our Taoiseach addressed the nation and part of that was a call for staff to apply ahead of the onslaught of ill people. 24k applied including my husband, the next day and since then nada......hmmm
In Jan he had applied for a job in the general hospital (the busy one with some virus patients as opposed to our closer one that so far has none) and he got called for an interview 7 days ago. Just to explain, this was a full time job and way before a mention of the virus in china. Nothing back yet from that interview. So in the middle of a pandemic, no calls from the specially set up website for recruitment and it takes a busy hospital with some patients 7 days plus to hire pre pandemic needed staff.
I have to say, I'm beginning to feel royally played. Too many #filmyour hospitals that are empty of medical staff never mind screaming in agony patients especially as I saw it myself at the quieter hospital picking up my dad last week.
Is there a virus? I think so
Is it as dangerous as we think? certainly to over 70 year olds or people with underlying conditions
Are ordinary people at risk? nope
Should we be in lockdown? only those who are at risk
Is it NWO? For certain
Why are medical staff going along with this? too embarrassed after worldwide fanfare about their bravery and afraid to go against the top and media
How do we get out of this? EXPOSE THEM, spread doubt.
Quote from: nmoerbeek on April 01, 2020, 04:47:13 PM
This is from NYC
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUh5GU7WAAAq0KA?format=jpg&name=900x900)
mmboreek, watch amazing polly and see where she shows some tweets where family members were calling out officials on recording their loved ones deaths as corona virus when in fact it wasn't.
Last week, we had our first death in the midlands, Co Offaly to be precise and the media reported that the man had no underlying conditions. Now I live near enough and would cross over with this mans area with friends of friends on FB etc. This mans granddaughter posted the usual emotional plea to stay home and stay safe, she had lost her grandfather mentioned on the news, ok he had underlying conditions but blah blah blah....I read that myself and I double checked. The media were certainly lying about him.
USA: 215,000 cases, 5,102 dead. On track for doubling twice per week. That would be 20,000 dead by next Wednesday.
Italy: 110,500 cases, 13,155 dead. Definitely the death rate has slowed up.
Quote from: red solo cup on April 01, 2020, 02:11:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve02VhrDTrs
Looks like a Jewish neighborhood. From the description under the video.
QuoteFBI Raids Brooklyn NY Man For Hoarding 5,000 Boxes Of N95 Masks & Selling At 700% Markup Of Original
"A New York man coughed on FBI agents and claimed he has the coronavirus on Monday as they arrested him for allegedly lying about the sale of $12,000 worth of medical supplies. Authorities say Baruch Feldheim, 43, of Brooklyn allegedly sold much-needed supplies such as N95 respirators and other personal protective equipment to a New Jersey doctor at 700% markup of their original price. When federal agents confronted him Monday at his home, he lied and said that he worked for a company that bought and sold PPE, according to the U.S. Attorney District of New Jersey's Office. Prosecutors say Feldheim also falsely said that he didn't possess large quantities of PPE and that he never sold them directly to individuals. The arrest comes just a few days after NBC New York reported that a desperate New Jersey primary care physician had turned to the black market to get medical supplies he needed in order to protect healthcare workers who are treating COVID-19 patients from the virus. The current shortage of supplies triggered by the COVID-19 pandemic had forced Dr. Alexander Salerno and a growing number of hospitals and other care facilities to turn to untraditional suppliers." - CNN
James the cases you post are the official adulterates, manipulated numbers.
A short poem by Rudyard Kipling...
It was not part of their blood, it came to them very late, with long arrears to make good, when the Saxon began to hate.
They were not easily moved, they were icy – willing to wait til every count should be proved, ere the Saxon began to hate.
Their voices were even and low. Their eyes were level and straight. There was neither sign nor show, when the Saxon began to hate.
It was not preached to the crowd. It was not taught by the state. No man spoke it aloud when the Saxon began to hate.
It was not suddenly bred. It will not swiftly abate. Through the chilled years ahead, when time shall count from the date that the Saxon began to hate
-- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beginnings
Quote"Of all the drugs now under investigation for COVID-19 treatment, remdesivir is one that makes the most biological sense. It incorporates itself into the viral genetic code, interrupting reproduction. In animals and cell cultures, it has killed the pathogens MERS and SARS, which are genetically similar to the new virus.
This week, after giving away the drug to hundreds of critically ill patients under an emergency "compassionate use" program, Gilead announced it is shifting to a new distribution strategy. It is no longer accepting new individual "compassionate use" requests, except in cases of severe disease in children and pregnant women.
Instead it is building a new pipeline called "expanded access," which will distribute the drug to large groups of sick patients through specific hospitals.
It will also continue sending the drug to researchers at Stanford, UC San Francisco and medical centers conducting clinical trials. These trials are limited in size, and only open to patients who meet certain criteria.
The families of very sick patients — many of whom were already in line for "compassionate use" access – say they're running out of time. Fearing they'll be cut off, they're begging for whatever treatment they can get and urging Gilead to expand production.
"I hope they share their patent and resources with other manufacturers. They could potentially save hundreds of thousands of lives," said Lori Lewis of Palatine, Illinois, stunned by the sudden illness of her husband, Grant Reffell, a once-healthy 55-year-old chiropractor who is now fighting for his life in an Intensive Care Unit.
The problem, said bioethicist Art Caplan of New York University's Langone Medical Center, is that there just isn't enough drug for everyone. It isn't practical, he said, for drug companies to start mass-producing an agent that might not ever be approved.
"You can't build a factory to make an unlicensed drug," said Caplan, who leads NYU's Working Group on Compassionate Use and Pre-approval Access, which studies the ethics of access to investigational medical products.
"Gilead doesn't have an unlimited supply," he said. When a drug is still under investigation, "companies are almost always facing some sort of scarcity."
The issue of pre-approval access has long generated controversy, according to the NYU Working Group. There's no constitutional right to these drugs. And when companies grant access, they do not always do so in a fair or transparent manner.
It's an issue that's been confronted by patients with other deadly diseases, Caplan said. For example, there was a shortage of the Janssen drug called Darzalex after early indications that it helped treat an aggressive bone cancer called multiple myeloma.
Remdesivir was created by Gilead during the West African Ebola outbreak of 2013 to 2016. It worked in cell cultures and in animals. But in people, it was a flop.
Now the drug has been repositioned as a treatment for coronaviruses.
"There is some theoretical advantage to using it," said Dr. Aruna Subramanian, clinical professor of medicine and infectious diseases at Stanford University School of Medicine, who is involved in three remdesivir trials launched March 14.
Gilead expects some early results from its China trials in late April. In an unrelated development on Wednesday, the drug company bowed to public pressure to drop its bid for "orphan-drug status" for the drug, which could have limited affordability and blocked generic competition.
While no conclusions can be drawn from individual recoveries, anecdotal reports are driving demand. In January, in the first known U.S. case of the illness, a man in Snohomish County, Washington, improved after receiving a single treatment. Palo Alto resident Monica Yeung Arima, hospitalized this month with pneumonia after contracting the COVID-19 virus on a cruise in Egypt, began to improve after intravenous treatment. "I am not a doctor. I am not a scientist. I don't know if it helped," she said. "But after the second application, I am already turning around. My fever stabilized. My oxygen levels stabilized."
The side effects are modest, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, professor of medicine at UCSF, who is managing patients with COVID-19, including some who are critically ill, and has requested remdesivir for compassionate use. "It's not a toxic drug. It's generally well-tolerated, which is amazing. When you think of a drug like that — if it's not going to cause a patient that much harm and you have a little evidence of benefit and the patient might die without treatment, of course, you want to use it as much as you can," he said in an interview with Infectious Disease News. "Scientifically, we always want evidence. But the risks are very low, as we know them."
The first clinical trial began in February with passengers of the Grand Princess cruise ship treated at the University of Nebraska. The new trials — four in the U.S. and two in China, involving hundreds of patients — started in early March. They study the effectiveness of the drug in patients with moderate or severe disease, with patients randomly assigned to receive different doses of remdesivir or a placebo.
"Compassionate use" access is much more logistically challenging, said Caplan. Designed to help seriously and terminally ill patients with no approved treatment options, it requires drug companies and federal regulators to review each individual patient request. The drug must get sent to far-flung patients. And because no data is collected, no one knows if it's working or not.
"It's a huge undertaking. You may be sending it to people who have no idea how to use it," said Caplan. "And you have to get it there. Imagine sitting at a desk trying to figure out how to ship it to someone in Oklahoma." "Basically, you're just trying to rescue people. You're throwing them a life preserver in hopes they live," he said. "You don't learn anything."
The multipatient "expanded access" process is more efficient and meaningful, Caplan said. And the application for physicians is streamlined, so the drug could be shipped faster. But only certain medical centers are designated as distribution centers, so not every patient, everywhere, will have access. Gilead has not said how large this program will be. To prepare, Gilead is tapping into stockpiles of the drug that were created during West Africa's Ebola outbreaks, as well as a stockpile of the ingredients needed to manufacture it. It is making two formulations, liquid and freeze-dried. It is expanding its network of manufacturing partners and has started its own internal production of the drug. "We're investing tens of millions of dollars today, hundreds of millions of dollars in the very near future to scale up manufacturing facilities to make this happen," said Gilead's chief executive, Daniel O'Day, at a briefing in early March.
"We're investing heavily in our supply chain and manufacturing," he said, "such that — should it work — we can respond immediately."
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/26/coronavirus-who-gets-access-to-scarce-experimental-drug/
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/web-summit-founder-urged-to-apologise-over-rubbished-four-nurses-dead-tweet/ar-BB122Wii?ocid=spartanntp
Just so you know Amazing Polly isn't talking bs.
Quote from: mikemac on April 01, 2020, 09:44:56 PM
Quote from: red solo cup on April 01, 2020, 02:11:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve02VhrDTrs
Looks like a Jewish neighborhood. From the description under the video.
QuoteFBI Raids Brooklyn NY Man For Hoarding 5,000 Boxes Of N95 Masks & Selling At 700% Markup Of Original
"A New York man coughed on FBI agents and claimed he has the coronavirus on Monday as they arrested him for allegedly lying about the sale of $12,000 worth of medical supplies. Authorities say Baruch Feldheim, 43, of Brooklyn allegedly sold much-needed supplies such as N95 respirators and other personal protective equipment to a New Jersey doctor at 700% markup of their original price. When federal agents confronted him Monday at his home, he lied and said that he worked for a company that bought and sold PPE, according to the U.S. Attorney District of New Jersey's Office. Prosecutors say Feldheim also falsely said that he didn't possess large quantities of PPE and that he never sold them directly to individuals. The arrest comes just a few days after NBC New York reported that a desperate New Jersey primary care physician had turned to the black market to get medical supplies he needed in order to protect healthcare workers who are treating COVID-19 patients from the virus. The current shortage of supplies triggered by the COVID-19 pandemic had forced Dr. Alexander Salerno and a growing number of hospitals and other care facilities to turn to untraditional suppliers." - CNN
If the perpetrator is of certain origins, so Mutti Merkel's Moslem youth, or in Ireland, the offspring of former direct provision bogus asylum seeks in Balbriggan (a fine spot destroyed by housing policy), Co. Dublin, the reports can be very cagey on the details in case we all turn into Brenton Tarrants, but Baruch Feldheim is very likely a gent of Hebraic origins.
People from all over the world reporting closed hospitals etc
https://www.winterwatch.net/2020/04/strained-resources-citizen-sleuths-investigate-the-cronyvirus-pandemic/
https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/heroic-citizens-going-to-local-hospitals-and-fact-checking-the-lying-msm/265045
#FILMYOURHOSPITAL
#EMPTYHOSPITALS
Random points:
1. If we assume 50 hospitals per State, that would be 2500 hospitals. There are around 5,000 "serious cases", so 2 per hospital. Obviously we would expect clusters.
2. Report after report shows that deaths from Covid always involve underlying causes. If you have emphysema, you don't want to catch this.
3. For the rest, which would be 97.5% of confirmed cases, Covid is mild. (Divide serious by active to get 2.5% serious).
4. There is another population that caught it, recovered, and never realized they had it. We may get some idea of that population after anti-body testing, and I suspect it will be a huge percentage.
5. We escaped price inflation after the 2009 money printing mostly due to the oil boom, which was real. However, did we escape it? Home prices, car prices, medical costs, and college costs suffered massive price inflation. We even saw it in beef (which can be exported to the Mid East vs. pork).
6. I expect that price inflation will be more widespread. The Iron Law of Economics: "In order to consume, you must first produce" is being violated. Watch M2 money supply. On the plus side energy prices are currently dirt cheap.
7. Expect the States to use this "crisis" to clamor for pension bail outs. More inflation.
#EndThePanic
I don't know why, but I'm fully expecting trouble when I go to pray in front of my parish this weekend...even though no "rules" are being broken. It wouldn't surprise me if I get the cops called on me or some individuals snitching on "well why is she out there on the grass in front of that Church?" Nothing even remotely illegal going on, or about to happen. Just 1 or 2 people doing "social distance" praying in front of their Churches because our cowardly bishops and evil politicians have deprived us of our abilities to: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; [...] or the right of the people peaceably to assemble."
1 Million Cases. 52500 deaths. CFR about 5.25%. 210,000 Recoveries. Italy has a CFR around 11%. Spain around 9%. The US around 2.5%.
This article, written a while ago, says the virus was recombined in a lab: "UPDATE – 2/9/2020 – IPAK HAS CONDUCTED FURTHER, IN-DEPTH STUDIES OF THE GENOMIC AN PROTEIN SEQUENCES OF THE 2019-nCoV CORONAVIRUSES AND THEIR RELATIVES AND HAVE COMPELLING RESULTS OF A KEY SIGNATURE USEFUL FOR IDENTIFYING A PARTICULARLY PATHOGENIC CORONAVIRUSES LINEAGE. GIVEN THAT WE HAVE FOUND THIS SIGNATURE, A FUNCTIONAL MOTIF FINGERPRINT, PRESENT IN THE HK-3 CoV FROM 2005, WE BELIEVE THIS EXONERATES RECOMBINATION IN THE LAB AS A SOURCE OF THE VIRUS. THIS DOES NOT EXONERATE ACCIDENTAL RELEASE, HOWEVER. WE ARE WORKING TO PUBLISH OUR FINDINGS." https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2020/01/30/on-the-origins-of-the-2019-ncov-virus-wuhan-china/
The Wuhan Institute of Virology is very close to the Wuhan Seafood Market that was the centre of the outbreak: ""In their report they contend that the virus leaked from the lab.
Another possible explanation is that when experiments are finished at the lab, the scientists sell the animals to the wet market in Wuhan a mere 300 yards away." https://davidharrisjr.com/steven/researchers-confirm-dtmnbn-linked-to-horseshoe-bat-studies-at-one-wuhan-research-institutes-video/
US Senator Tom Cotton was one of the first who warned, based on the measures China took to contain its spread, that coronavirus was serious, and was soon going to impact the rest of the world, since January. He was roundly mocked for it in the leftist press, which continued comparisons to the flu for a long time: "By the third week of January, they had more than 75 million people on lockdown. They were confined to their homes and apartments, otherwise they were arrested. In some cases, the front doors of those buildings were welded shut. All schools had shut down. Hong Kong had banned flights from the mainland. [These are] the kind of extreme, draconian measures that you would only take in a position of power in China if you were greatly worried about the spread of this virus." https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/the-senator-who-saw-the-coronavirus-coming/
So, it's not the flu, but that doesn't mean either that ridiculously oppressive measures need to be taken to stop it. Reasonable precautions till a cure is found should be sufficient. Another myth the Communist Party has been trying to promote from the start is that an oppressive dictatorship is necessary to stop the virus from spreading, that responsible people in free democracies cannot do it. That's another falsehood; what should be done imho is to gradually reduce the numbers of cases and deaths through proper medicine, so everyone can get back to work. Churches should not have closed at all and those that have closed should re-open soon in time for Holy Week. Palm Sunday is almost upon us.
Wife texted me today on my lunch break her work (hospital) will test her since she's home sick, so I myself am sent home until we find out the test results. Fun fun. :pray2:
Quote from: martin88nyc on April 01, 2020, 10:35:18 PM
James the cases you post are the official adulterates, manipulated numbers.
The most important numbers are being published and updated daily by the NYT. Just put aside their Left editorial policy (all of us, not you, Martin) for a minute, and accept that they do have some credibility on the actual stats. (Just ignore the sometimes deceptive headlines as to CV trends.)
If you go to their CV page, they have maps, charts, and tables. There's a search bar in which you can type a county or state for information, but don't just look at the first 4 columns (Cases, Cases per 1000, deaths, deaths per 1000). Look at the horizontal bar graph on the right side. That shows you on the extreme far right where the rate of new cases are (darker colors represent higher numbers, lighter colors lower). Trends are the most important to notice -- a flow from left to right. My county is almost at the lightest color at the moment, and our deaths remain single digit and have remained there for weeks.
Most people are probably not doing a lot of travel outside of their own county at the moment, unless they live near a county border and work in an essential activity across the border or have no grocery stores or other critical services near them. So obviously we still need to exercise great caution, but generalized panic is not called for.
And boy, 6.6+ million jobless claims is historic. Recovery will be way longer than the fall.
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 48: Curve Flattening in California, PPE in the ICU, Medication Trials
As global COVID-19 infections and deaths continue to rise, Dr. Seheult discusses an encouraging curve flattening trend from preliminary data in California and Washington States. Personal protective equipment in the ICU setting and hydroxychloroquine clinical trials seeking enrollees from the United States and Canada are also discussed.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN-8bGB1cLM[/yt]
https://www.breitbart.com/health/2020/04/02/asian-cardinal-china-has-primary-responsibility-for-coronavirus-pandemic/
(https://media.breitbart.com/media/2020/04/Charles-Maung-Bo-640x480.jpg)
The president of the Federation of Asian Bishops' Conferences said Thursday that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has "primary responsibility" for the global coronavirus pandemic and owes the world "compensation for the destruction it has caused."
There is "one government that has primary responsibility for what it has done and what it has failed to do, and that is the CCP regime in Beijing," writes Cardinal Charles Maung Bo (pictured), the archbishop of Yangon in Myanmar, which borders China.
"Let me be clear — it is the CCP that has been responsible, not the people of China, and no one should respond to this crisis with racial hatred toward the Chinese," Cardinal Bo states in a powerfully worded op-ed for UCANews. "Indeed, the Chinese people were the first victims of this virus and have long been the primary victims of their repressive regime. They deserve our sympathy, our solidarity and our support."
"But it is the repression, the lies and the corruption of the CCP that are responsible," he says.
More and more voices are being raised against "the negligent attitude shown by China, especially its despotic Chinese Communist Party (CCP) led by its strongman Xi Jinping," the cardinal writes, citing law professor James Kraska that "China is legally responsible for Covid-19 and claims could be made in the trillions of dollars."
The cardinal's remarks and his strong denunciation of the Chinese communists stand in sharp contrast to the conciliatory approach adopted by the Vatican in dealing with the communist regime in recent years.
Pope Francis has refused to criticize the intense crackdown on religious freedom by the government of Xi Jinping and has kept silent concerning the repression of student pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong.
In September 2018, the Vatican signed a secret agreement with the CCP regarding the appointment of bishops in China and later told Catholic clergy that they are free to join the state-run Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association, which is independent of Rome.
The pope has insisted that the communist government protects religious freedom in China and that "churches are full." Meanwhile, the chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, the Argentinian Bishop Marcelo Sanchez Sorondo, has insisted that the CCP has created the best model for living out Catholic social teaching today.
In his op-ed, Cardinal Bo chronicles China's culpable suppression of the news of the coronavirus emergency.
"Instead of protecting the public and supporting doctors, the CCP silenced the whistleblowers," he observes. "Worse than that, doctors who tried to raise the alarm — such as Dr. Li Wenliang in Wuhan Central Hospital who issued a warning to fellow medics Dec. 30 — were ordered by police to 'stop making false comments.'"
Moreover, the cardinal adds, young journalists who tried to report on the virus then "disappeared."
"Li Zehua, Chen Qiushi and Fang Bin are among those believed to have been arrested simply for telling the truth," he notes. "Legal scholar Xu Zhiyong has also been detained after publishing an open letter criticizing the Chinese regime's response."
Bo underscores the "deep concern that the Chinese regime's official statistics significantly downplay the scale of infection within China," while denouncing China's false accusation of the United States Army as cause of the pandemic.
"Lies and propaganda have put millions of lives around the world in danger," he states.
The CCP's conduct in the coronavirus pandemic "is symptomatic of its increasingly repressive nature," Bo notes, a phenomenon revealed in its "intense crackdown" on freedom of expression and freedom of religion.
This despotism has gone beyond the borders of mainland China, he observes, and Hong Kong itself, "once one of Asia's most open cities, has seen its freedoms, human rights and the rule of law dramatically eroded."
The CCP's "inhumane and irresponsible handling of the coronavirus," he continues, has proven what many already thought: "that it is a threat to the world."
"China as a country is a great and ancient civilization that has contributed so much to the world throughout history, but this regime is responsible, through its criminal negligence and repression, for the pandemic sweeping through our streets today," he insists.
"The Chinese regime led by the all-powerful Xi Jinping and the CCP — not its people — owes us all an apology and compensation for the destruction it has caused," the cardinal concludes. "As a minimum, it should write off the debts of other countries to cover the cost of Covid-19."
"For the sake of our common humanity, we must not be afraid to hold this regime to account," he states."
This is a very good article which brings together at lot of the questions that have been raised on this thread about the corona flu figures.
https://conservativewoman.co.uk/if-the-virus-is-so-bad-why-are-european-death-rates-down/
https://twitter.com/search?q=Empty%20hospitals&src=typeahead_click
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/holohan-urges-people-to-seek-help-if-they-need-it-after-seeing-empty-waiting-rooms-during-his-hospital-admission/ar-BB125mN0?ocid=spartanntp
This was our head of the Dept of Health and our spokesperson for Covid 19, he was admitted to hospital for non virus issue.
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/
Facts about Covid-19
Quote
Fully referenced facts about Covid-19, provided by experts in the field, to help our readers make a realistic risk assessment. (Updated daily, see below)
,,The only means to fight the plague is honesty." Albert Camus, The Plague (1947)
According to the latest data of the Italian National Health Institute ISS, the average age of the positively-tested deceased in Italy is currently about 81 years. 10% of the deceased are over 90 years old. 90% of the deceased are over 70 years old.
80% of the deceased had suffered from two or more chronic diseases. 50% of the deceased had suffered from three or more chronic diseases. The chronic diseases include in particular cardiovascular problems, diabetes, respiratory problems and cancer.
Less than 1% of the deceased were healthy persons, i.e. persons without pre-existing chronic diseases. Only about 30% of the deceased are women.
The Italian Institute of Health moreover distinguishes between those who died from the coronavirus and those who died with the coronavirus. In many cases it is not yet clear whether the persons died from the virus or from their pre-existing chronic diseases or from a combination of both.
The two Italians deceased under 40 years of age (both 39 years old) were a cancer patient and a diabetes patient with additional complications. In these cases, too, the exact cause of death was not yet clear (i.e. if from the virus or from their pre-existing diseases).
The partial overloading of the hospitals is due to the general rush of patients and the increased number of patients requiring special or intensive care. In particular, the aim is to stabilize respiratory function and, in severe cases, to provide anti-viral therapies.
(Update: The Italian National Institute of Health published a statistical report on test-positive patients and deceased, confirming the above data.)
The following aspects should also be taken into account:
Northern Italy has one of the oldest populations and the worst air quality in Europe, which had already led to an increased number of respiratory diseases and deaths in the past and is likely an additional risk factor in the current epidemic.
South Korea, for instance, has experienced a much milder course than Italy and has already passed the peak of the epidemic. In South Korea, only about 70 deaths with a positive test result have been reported so far. As in Italy, those affected were mostly high-risk patients.
The few dozen test-positive Swiss deaths so far were also high-risk patients with chronic diseases, an average age of more than 80 years and a maximum age of 97 years, whose exact cause of death, i.e. from the virus or from their pre-existing diseases, is not yet known.
Furthermore, studies have shown that the internationally used virus test kits may give a false positive result in some cases. In these cases, the persons may not have contracted the new coronavirus, but presumably one of the many existing human coronaviruses that are part of the annual (and currently ongoing) common cold and flu epidemics. (1)
Thus the most important indicator for judging the danger of the disease is not the frequently reported number of positively-tested persons and deaths, but the number of persons actually and unexpectedly developing or dying from pneumonia (so-called excess mortality).
According to all current data, for the healthy general population of school and working age, a mild to moderate course of the Covid-19 disease can be expected. Senior citizens and persons with existing chronic diseases should be protected. The medical capacities should be optimally prepared.
Medical literature
(1) Patrick et al., An Outbreak of Human Coronavirus OC43 Infection and Serological Cross-reactivity with SARS Coronavirus, CJIDMM, 2006.
(2) Grasselli et al., Critical Care Utilization for the COVID-19 Outbreak in Lombardy, JAMA, March 2020.
(3) WHO, Report of the WHO-China Joint Mission on Coronavirus Disease 2019, February 2020.
Reference values
Important reference values include the number of annual flu deaths, which is up to 8,000 in Italy and up to 60,000 in the US; normal overall mortality, which in Italy is up to 2,000 deaths per day; and the average number of pneumonia cases per year, which in Italy is over 120,000.
Current all-cause mortality in Europe and in Italy is still normal or even below-average. Any excess mortality due to Covid-19 should become visible in the European monitoring charts.
Winter smog (NO2) in Northern Italy in February 2020 (ESA)
Updates
Regular updates on the situation (all sources referenced).
March 17, 2020 (I)
The mortality profile remains puzzling from a virological point of view because, in contrast to influenza viruses, children are spared and men are affected about twice as often as women. On the other hand, this profile corresponds to natural mortality, which is close to zero for children and almost twice as high for 75-year-old men as for women of the same age.
The younger test-positive deceased almost always had severe pre-existing conditions. For example, a 21-year-old Spanish soccer coach had died test-positive, making international headlines. However, the doctors diagnosed an unrecognized leukemia, whose typical complications include severe pneumonia.
The decisive factor in assessing the danger of the disease is therefore not the number of test-positive persons and deceased, which is often mentioned in the media, but the number of people actually and unexpectedly developing or dying from pneumonia (so-called excess mortality). So far, this value remains very low in most countries.
In Switzerland, some emergency units are already overloaded simply because of the large number of people who want to be tested. This points to an additional psychological and logistical component of the current situation.
March 17, 2020 (II)
Italian immunology professor Sergio Romagnani from the University of Florence comes to the conclusion in a study on 3000 people that 50 to 75% of the test-positive people of all ages remain completely symptom-free – significantly more than previously assumed.
The occupancy rate of the North Italian ICUs in the winter months is typically already 85 to 90%. Some or many of these existing patients could also be test-positive by now. However, the number of additional unexpected pneumonia cases is not yet known.
A hospital doctor in the Spanish city of Malaga writes on Twitter that people are currently more likely to die from panic and systemic collapse than from the virus. The hospital is being overrun by people with colds, flu and possibly Covid19 and doctors have lost control.
March 18, 2020
A new epidemiological study (preprint) concludes that the fatality of Covid19 even in the Chinese city of Wuhan was only 0.04% to 0.12% and thus rather lower than that of seasonal flu, which has a mortality rate of about 0.1%. As a reason for the overestimated fatality of Covid19, the researchers suspect that initially only a small number of cases were recorded in Wuhan, as the disease was probably asymptomatic or mild in many people.
Chinese researchers argue that extreme winter smog in the city of Wuhan may have played a causal role in the outbreak of pneumonia. In the summer of 2019, public protests were already taking place in Wuhan because of the poor air quality.
New satellite images show how Northern Italy has the highest levels of air pollution in Europe, and how this air pollution has been greatly reduced by the quarantine.
A manufacturer of the Covid19 test kit states that it should only be used for research purposes and not for diagnostic applications, as it has not yet been clinically validated.
Datasheet of Covid19 virus test kit
March 19, 2020 (I)
The Italian National Health Institute ISS has published a new report on test-positive deaths:
The median age is 80.5 years (79.5 for men, 83.7 for women).
10% of the deceased was over 90 years old; 90% of the deceased was over 70 years old.
At most 0.8% of the deceased had no pre-existing chronic illnesses.
Approximately 75% of the deceased had two or more pre-existing conditions, 50% had three more pre-existing conditions, in particular heart disease, diabetes and cancer.
Five of the deceased were between 31 and 39 years old, all of them with serious pre-existing health conditions (e.g. cancer or heart disease).
The National Health Institute hasn't yet determined what the patients examined ultimately died of and refers to them in general terms as Covid19-positive deaths.
March 19, 2020 (II)
A report in the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera points out that Italian intensive care units already collapsed under the marked flu wave in 2017/2018. They had to postpone operations, call nurses back from holiday and ran out of blood donations.
German virologist Hendrik Streeck argues that Covid19 is unlikely to increase total mortality in Germany, which normally is around 2500 people per day. Streeck mentions the case of a 78-year-old man with preconditions who died of heart failure, subsequently tested positive for Covid19 and thus was included in the statistics of Covid19 deaths.
According to Stanford Professor John Ioannidis, the new coronavirus may be no more dangerous than some of the common coronaviruses, even in older people. Ioannidis argues that there is no reliable medical data backing the measures currently decided upon.
March 20, 2020
According to the latest European monitoring report, overall mortality in all countries (including Italy) and in all age groups remains within or even below the normal range so far.
According to the latest German statistics, the median age of test-positive deaths is about 83 years, most with pre-existing health conditions that might be a possible cause of death.
A 2006 Canadian study referred to by Stanford Professor John Ioannidis found that common cold coronaviruses may also cause death rates of up to 6% in risk groups such as residents of a care facility, and that virus test kits initially falsely indicated an infection with SARS coronaviruses.
March 21, 2020 (I)
Spain reports only three test-positive deaths under the age of 65 (out of a total of about 1000). Their pre-existing health conditions and actual cause of death are not yet known.
On March 20, Italy reported 627 nationwide test-positive deaths in one day. By comparison, normal overall mortality in Italy is about 1800 deaths per day. Since February 21, Italy has reported about 4000 test-positive deaths. Normal overall mortality during this time frame is up to 50,000 deaths. It is not yet known to what extent normal overall mortality has increased, or to what extent it has simply turned test-positive. Moreover, Italy and Europe have had a very mild flu season in 2019/2020 that has spared many otherwise vulnerable people.
According to Italian news reports, 90% of test-positive deceased in the Lombardy region have died outside of intensive care units, mostly at home or in general care sections. Their cause of death and the possible role of quarantine measures in their deaths remain unclear. Only 260 out of 2168 test-positive persons have died in ICUs.
Bloomberg highlights that ,,99% of Those Who Died From Virus Had Other Illness, Italy Says"
Italy test-positive deaths by prior illnesses (ISS / Bloomberg)
March 21, 2020 (II)
The Japan Times asks: Japan was expecting a coronavirus explosion. Where is it? Despite being one of the first countries getting positive test results and having imposed no lockdown, Japan is one of the least-affected nations. Quote: ,,Even if Japan may not be counting all those infected, hospitals aren't being stretched thin and there has been no spike in pneumonia cases."
Italian researchers argue that the extreme smog in Northern Italy, the worst in Europe, may be playing a causative role in the current pneumonia outbreak there, as in Wuhan before.
In a new interview, Professor Sucharit Bhakdi, a world renowned expert in medical microbiology, says blaming the new coronavirus alone for deaths is ,,wrong" and ,,dangerously misleading", as there are other more important factors at play, notably pre-existing health conditions and poor air quality in Chinese and Northern Italian cities. Professor Bhakdi describes the currently discussed or imposed measures as ,,grotesque", ,,useless", ,,self-destructive" and a ,,collective suicide" that will shorten the lifespan of the elderly and should not be accepted by society.
March 22, 2020 (I)
Regarding the situation in Italy: Most major media falsely report that Italy has up to 800 deaths per day from the coronavirus. In reality, the president of the Italian Civil Protection Service stresses that these are deaths ,,with the coronavirus and not from the coronavirus" (minute 03:30 of the press conference). In other words, these persons died while also testing positive.
As Professors Ioannidis and Bhakdi have shown, countries like South Korea and Japan that introduced no lockdown measures have experienced near-zero excess mortality in connection with Covid-19, while the Diamond Princess cruise ship experienced an extrapolated mortality figure in the per mille range, i.e. at or below the level of the seasonal flu.
Current test-positive death figures in Italy are still less than 50% of normal daily overall mortality in Italy, which is around 1800 deaths per day. Thus it is possible, perhaps even likely, that a large part of normal daily mortality now simply counts as ,,Covid19" deaths (as they test positive). This is the point stressed by the President of the Italian Civil Protection Service.
However, by now it is clear that certain regions in Northern Italy, i.e. those facing the toughest lockdown measures, are experiencing markedly increased daily mortality figures. It is also known that in the Lombardy region, 90% of test-positive deaths occur not in intensive care units, but instead mostly at home. And more than 99% have serious pre-existing health conditions.
Professor Sucharit Bhakdi has called lockdown measures ,,useless", ,,self-destructive" and a ,,collective suicide". Thus the extremely troubling question arises as to what extent the increased mortality of these elderly, isolated, highly stressed people with multiple pre-existing health conditions may in fact be caused by the weeks-long lockdown measures still in force.
If so, it may be one of those cases where the treatment is worse than the disease. (See update below: only 12% of death certificates show the coronavirus as a cause.)
Angelo Borrelli, head of the Italian Civil Protection Service, emphasizing the difference between deaths with and from coronaviruses.
March 22, 2020 (II)
In Switzerland, there are currently 56 test-positive deaths, all of whom were ,,high risk patients" due to their advanced age and/or pre-existing health conditions. Their actual cause of death, i.e. from or simply with the virus, has not been communicated.
The Swiss government claimed that the situation in southern Switzerland (next to Italy) is ,,dramatic", yet local doctors denied this and said everything is normal.
According to press reports, oxygen bottles may become scarce. The reason, however, is not a currently higher usage, but rather hoarding due to fear of future shortages.
In many countries, there is already an increasing shortage of doctors and nurses. This is primarily because healthcare workers testing positive have to self-quarantine, even though in many cases they will remain fully or largely symptom-free.
March 22, 2020 (III)
A model from Imperial College London predicted between 250,000 and 500,000 deaths in the UK ,,from" Covid-19, but the authors of the study have now conceded that many of these deaths would not be in addition to, but rather part of the normal annual mortality rate, which in the UK is about 600,000 people per year. In other words, excess mortality would remain low.
Dr. David Katz, founding director of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, asks in the New York Times: ,,Is Our Fight Against Coronavirus Worse Than the Disease? There may be more targeted ways to beat the pandemic."
According to Italian Professor Walter Ricciardi, ,,only 12% of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus", whereas in public reports ,,all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus". This means that Italian death figures reported by the media have to be reduced by at least a factor of 8 to obtain actual deaths caused by the virus. Thus one ends up with at most a few dozen deaths per day, compared to an overall daily mortality of 1800 deaths and up to 20,000 flu deaths per year.
March 23, 2020 (I)
A new French study in the Journal of Antimicrobial Agents, titled SARS-CoV-2: fear versus data, concludes that ,,the problem of SARS-CoV-2 is probably overestimated", since ,,the mortality rate for SARS-CoV-2 is not significantly different from that for common coronaviruses identified at the study hospital in France".
An Italian study of August 2019 found that flu deaths in Italy were between 7,000 and 25,000 in recent years. This value is higher than in most other European countries due to the large elderly population in Italy, and much higher than anything attributed to Covid-19 so far.
In a new fact sheet, the World Health Organization WHO reports that Covid-19 is in fact spreading slower, not faster, than influenza by a factor of about 50%. Moreover, pre-symptomatic transmission appears to be much lower with Covid-19 than with influenza.
A leading Italian doctor reports that ,,strange cases of pneumonia" were seen in the Lombardy region already in November 2019, raising again the question if they were caused by the new virus (which officially only appeared in Italy in February 2020), or by other factors, such as the dangerously high smog levels in Northern Italy.
Danish researcher Peter Gøtzsche, founder of the renowned Cochrane Medical Collaboration, writes that Corona is ,,an epidemic of mass panic" and ,,logic was one of the first victims."
March 23, 2020 (II)
Former Israeli Health Minister, Professor Yoram Lass, says that the new coronavirus is ,,less dangerous than the flu" and lockdown measures ,,will kill more people than the virus". He adds that ,,the numbers do not match the panic" and ,,psychology is prevailing over science". He also notes that ,,Italy is known for its enormous morbidity in respiratory problems, more than three times any other European country."
Pietro Vernazza, a Swiss infectious disease specialist, argues that many of the imposed measures are not based on science and should be reversed. According to Vernazza, mass testing makes no sense because 90% of the population will see no symptoms, and lockdowns and closing schools are even ,,counterproductive". He recommends protecting only risk groups while keeping the economy and society at large undisturbed.
The President of the World Doctors Federation, Frank Ulrich Montgomery, argues that lockdown measures as in Italy are ,,unreasonable" and ,,counterproductive" and should be reversed.
In Switzerland, despite media panic, excess mortality is still at or near zero: the latest test-positive ,,victims" were a 96-year-old in palliative care and a 97-year-old with pre-existing conditions.
The latest statistical report of the Italian National Health Institute is now available in English.
March 24, 2020
The UK has removed Covid19 from the official list of High Consquence Infectious Diseases (HCID), stating that mortality rates are ,,low overall".
The director of the German National Health Institute (RKI) admitted that they count all test-positive deaths, irrespective of the actual cause of death, as ,,coronavirus deaths". The average age of the deceased is 82 years, most with serious preconditions. As in most other countries, excess mortality due Covid19 is likely to be near zero in Germany.
Beds in Swiss intensive care units reserved for Covid19 patients are still ,,mostly empty".
German Professor Karin Moelling, former Chair of Medical Virology at the University of Zurich, stated in an interview that Covid19 is ,,no killer virus" and that ,,panic must end".
March 25, 2020
German immunologist and toxicologist, Professor Stefan Hockertz, explains in a radio interview that Covid19 is no more dangerous than influenza (the flu), but that it is simply observed much more closely. More dangerous than the virus is the fear and panic created by the media and the ,,authoritarian reaction" of many governments. Professor Hockertz also notes that most so-called ,,corona deaths" have in fact died of other causes while also testing positive for coronaviruses. Hockertz believes that up to ten times more people than reported already had Covid19 but noticed nothing or very little.
The Argentinean virologist and biochemist Pablo Goldschmidt explains that Covid19 is no more dangerous than a bad cold or the flu. It is even possible that the Covid19 virus circulated already in earlier years, but wasn't discovered because no one was looking for it. Dr. Goldschmidt speaks of a ,,global terror" created by the media and politics. Every year, he says, three million newborns worldwide and 50,000 adults in the US alone die of pneumonia.
Professor Martin Exner, head of the Institute for Hygiene at the University of Bonn, explains in an interview why health personnel are currently under pressure, even though there has hardly been any increase in the number of patients in Germany so far: On the one hand, doctors and nurses who have tested positive have to be quarantined and are often hard to replace. On the other hand, nurses from neighbouring countries, who provide an important part of the care, are currently unable to enter the country due to closed borders.
Professor Julian Nida-Ruemelin, former German Minister of State for Culture and Professor of Ethics, points out that Covid19 poses no risk to the healthy general population and that extreme measures such as curfews are therefore not justified.
Using data from the cruise ship Diamond Princess, Stanford Professor John Ioannidis showed that the age-corrected lethality of Covid19 is between 0.025% and 0.625%, i.e. in the range of a strong cold or the flu. Moreover, a Japanese study showed that of all the test-positive passengers, and despite the high average age, 48% remained completely symptom-free; even among the 80-89 year olds 48% remained symptom-free, while among the 70 to 79 year olds it was an astounding 60% that developed no symptoms at all. This again raises the question whether the pre-existing diseases are not perhaps a more important factor than the virus itself. The Italian example has shown that 99% of test-positive deaths had one or more pre-existing conditions, and even among these, only 12% of the death certificates mentioned Covid19 as a causal factor.
March 26, 2020 (I)
USA: The latest US data of March 25 shows a decreasing number of flu-like illnesses throughout the country, the frequency of which is now well below the multi-year average. The government measures can be ruled out as a reason for this, as they have been in effect for less than a week.
US Influenza Trend (March 25, 2020)
US Influenza Trend (March 25, 2020)
USA: Decreasing flu-like illnesses (March 25, 2020, KINSA)
Germany: The latest influenza report of the German Robert Koch Institute of March 24 documents a ,,nationwide decrease in activity of acute respiratory diseases": The number of influenza-like illnesses and the number of hospital stays caused by them is below the level of previous years and is currently continuing to decline. The RKI continues: ,,The increase in the number of visits to the doctor cannot currently be explained either by influenza viruses circulating in the population or by SARS-CoV-2."
Deutschland: Atemwegserkrankungen 2019/2020 ggü. Vorjahren
Deutschland: Krankenhausaufenthalte durch Atemwegserkrankungen nach Altersgruppen
Germany: Decreasing flu-like illnesses (20 March 2020, RKI)
Italy: The renowned Italian virologist Giulio Tarro argues that the mortality rate of Covid19 is below 1% even in Italy and is therefore comparable to influenza. The higher values only arise because no distinction is made between deaths with and by Covid19 and because the number of (symptom-free) infected persons is greatly underestimated.
UK: The authors of the British Imperial College study, who predicted up to 500,000 deaths, are again reducing their forecasts. After already admitting that a large proportion of test-positive deaths are part of normal mortality, they now state that the peak of the disease may be reached in two to three weeks already.
UK: The British Guardian reported in February 2019 that even in the generally weak flu season 2018/2019 there were more than 2180 flu-related admissions to intensive care units in the UK.
Switzerland: In Switzerland, the excess mortality due to Covid19 is apparently still zero. The latest ,,fatal victim" presented by the media is a 100-year-old woman. Nevertheless, the Swiss government continues to tighten restrictive measures.
March 26, 2020 (II)
Sweden: Sweden has so far pursued the most liberal strategy in dealing with Covid19, which is based on two principles: Risk groups are protected and people with flu symptoms stay at home. ,,If you follow these two rules, there is no need for further measures, the effect of which is only marginal anyway," said chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell. Social and economic life will continue normally. The big rush to hospitals has so far failed to materialize, Tegnell said.
German criminal and constitutional law expert Dr. Jessica Hamed argues that measures such as general curfews and contact bans are a massive and disproportionate encroachment on fundamental rights of freedom and are therefore presumably ,,all illegal".
The latest European monitoring report on overall mortality continues to show normal or below-average values in all countries and all age groups, but now with one exception: in the 65+ age group in Italy a currently increased overall mortality is predicted (so-called delay-adjusted z-score), which is, however, still below the values of the influenza waves of 2017 and 2018.
March 27, 2020 (I)
Italy: According to the latest data published by the Italian Ministry of Health, overall mortality is now significantly higher in all age groups over 65 years of age, after having been below average due to the mild winter. Until March 14, overall mortality was still below the flu season of 2016/2017, but may have already exceeded it in the meantime. Most of this excess mortality currently comes from northern Italy. However, the exact role of Covid19, compared to other factors such as panic, healthcare collapse and the lockdown itself, is not yet clear.
Italy: Total mortality 65+ years (red line) (MdS / 14 March 2020)
France: According to the latest data from France, overall mortality at the national level remains within the normal range after a mild influenza season. However, in some regions, particularly in the north-east of France, overall mortality in the over-65 age group has already risen sharply in connection with Covid19 (see figure below).
France: Total mortality at national level (above) and in the severely affected Haut-Rhin department (SPF / 15 March 2020)
France also provides detailed information on the age distribution and pre-existing conditions of test-positive intensive care patients and deceased patients (see figure below):
The average age of the deceased is 81.2 years.
78% of the deceased were over 75 years old; 93% were over 65 years old.
2.4% of the deceased were under 65 years of age and had no (known) previous illness
The average age of intensive care patients is 65 years.
26% of intensive care patients are over 75 years old; 67% have previous illnesses.
17% of intensive care patients are under 65 years of age and have no previous illnesses.
The French authorities add that ,,the share of the (Covid-19) epidemic in overall mortality remains to be determined."
Age distribution of hospitalized patients (top left), intensive care patients (top right), patients at home (bottom left), and the deceased (bottom right). Source: SPF / 24 March 2020
USA: Researcher Stephen McIntyre has evaluated the official data on deaths from pneumonia in the US. There are usually between 3000 and 5500 deaths per week and thus significantly more than the current figures for Covid19. The total number of deaths in the US is between 50,000 and 60,000 per week. (Note: In the graph below, the latest figures for March 2020 have not yet been fully updated, so the curve is slumping).
USA: Deaths from pneumonia per week (CDC/McIntyre)
Great Britain:
Neil Ferguson of Imperial College London now assumes that the UK has sufficient capacity in intensive care units to treat Covid19 patients.
John Lee, Professor Emeritus of Pathology, argues that the particular way in which Covid-19 cases are registered leads to an overestimation of the risk posed by Covid19 compared to normal flu and cold cases.
Other topics:
A preliminary study by researchers at Stanford University showed that 20 to 25% of Covid19-positive patients tested additionally positive for other influenza or cold viruses.
The number of applications for unemployment insurance in the US skyrocketed to a record of over three million. In this context, a sharp increase in suicides is also expected.
The first test-positive patient in Germany has now recovered. According to his own statement, the 33-year-old man had experienced the illness ,,not as bad as the flu".
Spanish media report that the antibody rapid tests for Covid19 only have a sensitivity of 30%, although it should be at least 80%.
A study from China in 2003 concluded that the probability of dying from SARS is 84% higher in people exposed to moderate air pollution than in patients from regions with clean air. The risk is even 200% higher among people from areas with heavily polluted air.
The German Network for Evidence-Based Medicine (EbM) criticises the media reporting on Covid19: ,,The media coverage does not in any way take into account the criteria of evidence-based risk communication that we have demanded. () The presentation of raw data without reference to other causes of death leads to an overestimation of the risk".
March 27, 2020 (II)
German researcher Dr. Richard Capek argues in a quantitative analysis that the ,,Corona epidemic" is in fact an ,,epidemic of tests". Capek shows that while the number of tests has increased exponentially, the proportion of infections has remained stable and mortality has decreased, which speaks against an exponential spread of the virus itself (see below).
German Virology professor Dr. Carsten Scheller from the University of Würzburg explains in a podcast that Covid19 is definitely comparable with influenza and has so far even led to fewer deaths. Professor Scheller suspects that the exponential curves often presented in the media have more to do with the increasing number of tests than with an unusual spread of the virus itself. For countries like Germany, Italy is less of a role model than Japan and South Korea. Despite millions of Chinese tourists and only minimal social restrictions, these countries have not yet experienced a Covid19 crisis. One reason for this could be the wearing of mouth masks: This would hardly protect against infection, but would limit the spread of the virus by infected people.
The latest figures from Bergamo (city) show that total mortality in March 2020 increased from typically 150 people per month to around 450 people. It is still unclear what proportion of this was due to Covid19 and what proportion was due to other factors such as mass panic, systemic collapse and the lockdown itself. Apparently the city hospital was overrun by people from the whole region and collapsed.
The two Stanford professors of medicine, Dr. Eran Bendavid and Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, explain in an article that the lethality of Covid19 is overestimated by several orders of magnitude and is probably even in Italy only at 0.01% to 0.06% and thus below that of influenza. The reason for this overestimation is the greatly underestimated number of people already infected (without symptoms). As an example, the fully tested Italian community of Vo is mentioned, which showed 50 to 75% symptom-free test-positive persons.
Dr. Gerald Gaß, President of the German Hospital Association, explained in an interview with the Handelsblatt that ,,the extreme situation in Italy is mainly due to the very low intensive care capacities".
Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg, one of the early and vocal critics of a ,,Covid19 panic", was provisionally excluded by the board of Transparency International Germany, where he headed the health working group. Wodarg had already been severely attacked by the media for his criticism.
NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden warns that governments are using the current situation to expand the surveillance state and restrict fundamental rights. The control measures currently put in place would not be dismantled after the crisis.
Number of tests and test-positives (proportional)
Test-positives per number of tests (constant)
The increasing number of tests is finding a proportional number of infections, the ratio stays constant, speaking against an ongoing viral epidemic (Dr. Richard Capek, US data)
March 28, 2020
A new study by the University of Oxford concludes that Covid19 may already have existed in the UK since January 2020 and that half of the population may already be immunised, with most people experiencing no or only mild symptoms. This would mean that only one in a thousand people would need to be hospitalised for Covid19. (Study)
British media reported on a 21 year old woman ,,who died of Covid19 without any previous illnesses". However, it has since become known that the woman did not test positive for Covid19 and died of a heart failure. The Covid19 rumor had arisen ,,because she had a slight cough".
The German media scientist Professor Otfried Jarren criticized that many media provide uncritical journalism that emphasizes threats and executive power. According to Professor Jarren, there is hardly any differentiation and real debate between experts.
March 29, 2020
Dr Sucharit Bhakdi, Professor Emeritus of Medical Microbiology in Mainz, Germany, wrote an Open Letter to German Chancellor Dr Angela Merkel, calling for an urgent reassessment of the response to Covid19 and asking the Chancellor five crucial questions.
The latest data from the German Robert Koch Institute show that the increase in test-positive persons is proportional to the increase in the number of tests, i.e. in percentage terms it remains roughly the same. This may indicate that the increase in the number of cases is mainly due to an increase in the number of tests, and not due to an ongoing epidemic.
The Milan microbiologist Maria Rita Gismondo calls on the Italian government to stop communicating the daily number of ,,corona positives" as these figures are ,,fake" and put the population in unnecessary panic. The number of test-positives depends very much on the type and number of tests and says nothing about the state of health.
Dr. John Ioannidis, Stanford Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology, gave an in-depth one-hour interview on the lack of data for Covid19 measures.
The Argentinean virologist Pablo Goldschmidt, who lives in France, considers the political reaction to Covid19 as ,,completely exaggerated" and warns against ,,totalitarian measures". In parts of France, the movement of people is already monitored by drones.
Italian author Fulvio Grimaldi, born in 1934, explains that the state measures currently implemented in Italy are ,,worse than under fascism". Parliament and society have been completely disempowered.
March 30, 2020 (I)
In Germany, some clinics can no longer accept patients – not because there are too many patients or too few beds, but because the nursing staff have tested positive, although in most cases they hardly show any symptoms. This case illustrates again how and why health care systems are getting paralysed.
In a German retirement and nursing home for people with advanced dementia, 15 test-positive people have died. However, ,,surprisingly many people have died without showing symptoms of corona." A German medical specialist informs us: ,,From my medical point of view, there is some evidence that some of these people may have died as a result of the measures taken. People with dementia get into high stress when major changes are made to their everyday lives: isolation, no physical contact, possibly hooded staff." Nevertheless, the deceased are counted as ,,corona deaths" in German and international statistics. In connection with the ,,corona crisis", it is now also possible to die of an illness without even having its symptoms.
According to a Swiss pharmacologist, the Swiss Inselspital in Bern has forced staff to take leave, stopped therapies and postponed operations due to the fear of Covid19.
Professor Gérard Krause, head of the Department of Epidemiology at the German Helmholtz Centre for Infection Research, warns on German public television ZDF that the anti-corona measures ,,could lead to more deaths than the virus itself,,.
Various media reported that more than 50 doctors in Italy have already died ,,during the corona crisis", like soldiers in a battle. A glance at the corresponding list, however, shows that most of the deceased are retired doctors of various kinds, including 90-year-old psychiatrists and pediatricians, many of whom may have died of natural causes.
An extensive survey in Iceland found that 50% of all test-positive persons showed ,,no symptoms" at all, while the other 50% mostly showed ,,very moderate cold-like symptoms". According to the Icelandic data, the mortality rate of Covid19 is in the per mille range, i.e. in the flu range or below. Of the two test-positive deaths, one was ,,a tourist with unusual symptoms". (More Icelandic data)
The British Daily Mail journalist Peter Hitchens writes, ,,There's powerful evidence this great panic is foolish. Yet our freedom is still broken and our economy crippled." Hitchens points out that in parts of the UK, police drones monitor and report ,,non-essential" walks in nature. In some cases, police drones are calling on people via loudspeaker to go home in order to ,,save lives". (Note: Not even George Orwell had thought that far ahead.)
The Italian secret service warns of social unrest and uprisings. Supermarkets are already being looted and pharmacies raided.
Professor Sucharit Bhakdi has meanwhile published a video (German/English) in which he explains his Open Letter to German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel.
March 30, 2020 (II)
In several countries, there is increasing evidence in relation to Covid19 that ,,the treatment could be worse than the disease".
On the one hand, there is the risk of so-called nosocomial infections, i.e. infections that the patient, who may only be mildly ill, acquires in hospital. It is estimated that there are approximately 2.5 million nosocomial infections and 50,000 deaths per year in Europe. Even in German intensive care units, about 15% of patients acquire a nosocomial infection, including pneumonia on artificial respiration. There is also the problem of increasingly antibiotic-resistant germs in hospitals.
Another aspect is the certainly well-intentioned but sometimes very aggressive treatment methods that are increasingly used in Covid19 patients. These include, in particular, the administration of steroids, antibiotics and anti-viral drugs (or a combination thereof). Already in the treatment of SARS-1 patients, it has been shown that the outcome with such treatment was often worse and more fatal than without such treatment.
March 31, 2020 (I)
Dr. Richard Capek and other researchers have already shown that the number of test-positive individuals in relation to the number of tests performed remains constant in all countries studied so far, which speaks against an exponential spread (,,epidemic") of the virus and merely indicates an exponential increase in the number of tests.
Depending on the country, the proportion of test-positive individuals is between 5 and 15%, which corresponds to the usual spread of corona viruses. Interestingly, these constant numerical values are not actively communicated (or even removed) by authorities and the media. Instead, exponential but irrelevant and misleading curves are shown without context.
Such behavior, of course, does not correspond to professional medical standards, as a look at the traditional influenza report of the German Robert Koch Institute makes clear (p. 30, see chart below). Here, in addition to the number of detections (right), the number of samples (left, grey bars) and the positive rate (left, blue curve) are shown.
This immediately shows that during a flu season the positive rate rises from 0 to 10% to up to 80% of the samples and drops back to the normal value after a few weeks. In comparison, Covid19 tests show a constant positive rate in the normal range (see below).
Left: Number of samples and positive rate; right: number of detections (RKI, 2017)
Constant Covid19-positive rate using US data (Dr. Richard Capek). This applies analogously to all other countries for which data on the number of samples is currently available.
Covid19 positive rate (Dr. Richard Capek, US data)
March 31, 2020 (II)
A graphical analysis of the European monitoring data impressively shows that, irrespective of the measures taken, overall mortality throughout Europe remained in the normal range or below by March 25, and often significantly below the levels of previous years. Only in Italy (65+) was the overall mortality rate somewhat increased (probably for several reasons), but it was still below previous flu seasons.
The president of the German Robert Koch Institute confirmed again that pre-existing conditions and actual cause of death do not play a role in the definition of so-called ,,corona deaths". From a medical point of view, such a definition is clearly misleading. It has the obvious and generally known effect of putting politics and society in fear.
In Italy the situation is now beginning to calm down. As far as is known, the temporarily increased mortality rates (65+) were rather local effects, often accompanied by mass panic and a breakdown in health care. A politician from northern Italy asks, for example, ,,how is it possible that Covid patients from Brescia are transported to Germany, while in the nearby Verona two thirds of intensive care beds are empty?"
In an article published in the European Journal of Clinical Investigation, Stanford professor of medicine John C. Ioannidis criticizes the ,,harms of exaggerated information and non-evidence-based measures". Even journals had published dubious claims at the beginning.
A Chinese study published in the Chinese Journal of Epidemiology in early March, which indicated the unreliability of the Covid19 virus tests (approx. 50% false-positive results in asymptomatic patients), has since been withdrawn. The lead author of the study, the dean of a medical school, did not want to give the reason for the withdrawal and spoke of a ,,sensitive matter,,, which could indicate political pressure, as an NPR journalist noted. Independent of this study, however, the unreliability of so-called PCR virus tests has long been known: In 2006, for example, a mass infection in a Canadian nursing home with SARS corona viruses was ,,found", which later turned out to be common cold corona viruses (which can also be fatal for risk groups).
Authors of the German Risk Management Network RiskNET speak in a Covid19 analysis of a ,,blind flight" as well as ,,insufficient data competence and data ethics". Instead of more and more tests and measures a representative sample is necessary. The ,,sense and ratio" of the measures must be critically questioned.
The Spanish interview with the internationally renowned Argentinian-French virologist Pablo Goldschmidt was translated into German. Goldschmidt considers the measures imposed to be medically counterproductive and notes that one must now ,,read Hannah Arendt" to understand the ,,origins of totalitarianism".
Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, like other prime ministers and presidents before him, has largely disempowered the Hungarian parliament under an ,,emergency law" and can now govern essentially by decree.
April 1, 2020
On the situation in Italy
Italian doctors reported that they had already observed severe cases of pneumonia in northern Italy at the end of last year. However, genetic analyses now show that the Covid19 virus only appeared in Italy in January of this year. ,,The severe pneumonia diagnosed in Italy in November and December must therefore be due to a different pathogen," a virologist noted. This once again raises the question what role the Covid19 virus, or other factors, actually play in the Italian situation.
On March 30, we mentioned the list of Italian doctors who died ,,during the Corona crisis", many of whom were up to 90 years old and didn't actively participate in the crisis at all. Today, all years of birth on the list have been removed (see however the last archive version). A strange procedure.
We have also received the following message from an observer in Italy, who gives further details about the dramatic situation there, which is obviously due to far more than a virus:
,,In recent weeks, most of the Eastern European nurses who worked 24 hours a day, 7 days a week supporting people in need of care in Italy have left the country in a hurry. This is not least because of the panic-mongering and the curfews and border closures threatened by the ,,emergency governments". As a result, old people in need of care and disabled people, some without relatives, were left helpless by their carers.
Many of these abandoned people then ended up after a few days in the hospitals, which had been permanently overloaded for years, because they were dehydrated, among other things. Unfortunately, the hospitals lacked the personnel who had to look after the children locked up in their apartments because schools and kindergartens had been closed. This then led to the complete collapse of the care for the disabled and the elderly, especially in those areas where even harder ,,measures" were ordered, and to chaotic conditions.
The nursing emergency, which was caused by the panic, temporarily led to many deaths among those in need of care and increasingly among younger patients in the hospitals. These fatalities then served to cause even more panic among those in charge and the media, who reported, for example, ,,another 475 fatalities", ,,The dead are being removed from hospitals by the army", accompanied by pictures of coffins and army trucks lined up.
However, this was the result of the funeral directors' fear of the ,,killer virus", who therefore refused their services. Moreover, on the one hand there were too many deaths at once and on the other hand the government passed a law that the corpses carrying the coronavirus had to be cremated. In Catholic Italy, few cremations had been carried out in the past. Therefore there were only a few small crematoria, which very quickly reached their limits. Therefore the deceased had to be laid out in different churches.
In principle, this development is the same in all countries. However, the quality of the health system has a considerable influence on the effects. Therefore, there are fewer problems in Germany, Austria or Switzerland than in Italy, Spain or the USA. However, as can be seen in the official figures, there is no significant increase in the mortality rate. Just a small mountain that came from this tragedy."
Hospital situation in the US, Germany and Switzerland
The US television station CBS was caught using footage from an Italian intensive care unit in a piece on the current situation in New York. In fact, dozens of recordings by citizen journalists show that it is currently very quiet in the hospitals on the US East and West Coast. Even the ,,corpse refrigerator trucks" prominently shown in the media are unused and empty.
Contrary to media reports, the register of German intensive care units also shows no increased occupancy. An employee of a Munich clinic explained that they had been ,,waiting for weeks for the wave to hit", but that there was ,,no increase in patient numbers". He said that the politicians' statements did not correspond with their own experience, and that the ,,myth of the killer virus" could ,,not be confirmed".
Also in Swiss clinics, no increased occupancy has been observed so far. A visitor to the cantonal hospital in Lucerne reports that there is ,,less activity than in normal times". Entire floors have been closed for Covid19, but staff ,,are still waiting for patients". The hospitals in Bern, Basel, Zug and Zurich have also been ,,cleaned out". Even in Ticino, the intensive care units are not working to capacity, but patients are now being transferred to the German-Swiss departments. From a purely medical point of view, this makes little sense.
Other medical notes
The director of the University Medical Center Hamburg, Dr. Ansgar Lohse, demands a quick end to curfews and contact bans. He argues that more people should be infected with corona. Kitas and schools should be reopened as soon as possible so that children and their parents can become immune through infection with the corona virus. The continuation of the strict measures would lead to an economic crisis, which would also cost lives, said the physician.
In Spain, 15% of test-positives are doctors and nurses. Although many of them show no symptoms, they have to go into quarantine, causing the Spanish healthcare system to collapse.
Dr. John Lee, professor emeritus of pathology, is writing about the highly misleading definition and communication of ,,corona deaths" in the British Spectator.
The latest data from Norway, evaluated by a PhD in environmental toxicology, again show that the rate of test-positives does not increase – as would be expected in the case of an epidemic – but fluctuates in the normal range for coronaviruses between 2 and 10%. The average age of the test-positive deceased is 84 years, the causes of death are not publicly reported, and there is no excess mortality.
Sweden, which has so far managed without radical measures and has not reported increased mortality (similar to Asian countries such as Japan or South Korea), is remarkably put under pressure from the international media to change its strategy.
Data from New York State show that the hospitalization rate of test-positive individuals could be more than twenty times lower than originally assumed.
An article on the specialist portal DocCheck deals with the problem of ventilating test-positive patients. In test-positive patients, simple ventilation through a mask is officially advised against, among other things to prevent the coronavirus from spreading through aerosols. Therefore, test positive intensive care patients are often intubated directly. However, intubation has poor chances of success and often leads to additional damage to the lungs (so-called ventilator-induced lung damage). As with medication, the question arises as to whether a more gentle treatment of patients would not be medically more sensible.
Reports on political developments
A German state minister has called on the population to ,,be vigilant and report violations of the rules for containing the corona epidemic to the police". ,,Eagerly reported" are, for example, ,,prohibited group formation, children in playgrounds, parties" and hikers.
German constitutional law experts are raising the alarm for ,,serious encroachments on fundamental rights". Constitutional law expert Hans Michael Heinig warns that the ,,democratic constitutional state could turn into a fascist-hysterical hygiene state in no time". Professor Christoph Möllers of Berlin's Humboldt University explains that the infection protection law ,,cannot serve as a basis for such far-reaching restrictions of citizens' rights of freedom". According to the former president of the German Federal Constitutional Court, Hans Jürgen Papier, ,,emergency measures do not justify the suspension of civil liberties in favour of an authoritarian and surveillance state".
Online petitions have been launched in several countries to end curfews and other encroachments on basic rights. At the same time, critical video contributions, even by doctors, are increasingly being deleted. In Berlin, a registered event on fundamental rights, at which the German constitution was distributed, was terminated by the police.
April 2, 2020 (I)
USA
Biophysicist Felix Scholkmann has visualized the fact that in the US (as in the rest of the world), it is not the number of ,,infected" people that is increasing exponentially, but the number of tests. The number of ,,infected" people in relation to the number of tests remains basically constant (oscillating between 10 and 20%), which speaks against a current viral epidemic.
Number of positive and negative tests (left) and percantage of positive tests (right) (Scholkmann, US data)
Germany
According to the latest influenza report of the German Robert Koch Institute, the number of acute respiratory diseases has ,,fallen sharply nationwide". The values have ,,dropped in all age groups".
By March 20, the total number of inpatient cases with acute respiratory diseases had also fallen significantly. In the age group from 80 years and older, the number of cases had almost halved compared to the previous week.
In the 73 hospitals examined, 7% of all cases with respiratory diseases were diagnosed with COVID-19. In the age groups 35-59 years it was 16% and in the age group 60-79 years it was 13% who received a COVID-19 diagnosis.
These figures correspond to those from other countries as well as to the typical prevalence of coronaviruses (5 to 15%).
Grippeähnliche Erkrankungen (RKI, KW13)
Akute Atemwegserkrankungen in Krankenhäusern
Flu-like diseases in general (left) and acute respiratory diseases in hospitals (right) (Robert-Koch-Institut, weeks 13 and 12)
An article in DIE ZEIT discusses the issue of intensive care patients in Germany:
,,At present politicians, experts and many citizens observe with concern the exponentially increasing number of people who are newly infected every day. However, this is not the decisive indicator for assessing how badly the corona crisis is and will hit Germany. For it is distorted above all by the number of tests, which have been increasing for weeks.
In order to measure the burden on the health system, the number of those who are so seriously ill that they need to be ventilated is particularly important. As long as there are enough ventilation places for them, a great many of them can be saved. Only when these beds become scarce does a situation like the one in Italy threaten.
The DIVI register now shows that the situation in the German intensive care units has been relaxed so far. ,,We are still in a comfortable area," says Grabenhenrich. The number of seriously ill patients is not rising as steeply as the number of infected patients and even if it did, it would still be possible to provide a large number of intensive care beds with very good equipment.
Switzerland
The Swiss Federal Office of Public Health reports that approximately 139,330 Covid19 tests have been carried out so far, of which the result was positive in 15% of cases. This number also corresponds to the typical corona virus value known from other countries and, as far as can be seen, does not seem to be increasing in Switzerland either.
Only the number of tests often mentioned in the media is increasing exponentially, but not the number of ,,infected", sick or even dead.
On March 31, however, a new weekly mortality statistic was published which for the first time forecasts an increase in overall mortality in the 65+ age group in Switzerland for the 12th calendar week (until 22 March) (see chart below). Specifically, total mortality is expected to increase by around 200 deaths per week.
According to the Federal Office, this increase is ,,an expression of the current pandemic". The following problem arises here: up to 22 March there were a total of 106 test-positive deaths in Switzerland. An increase of 200 deaths per week would mean that a large part of the additional mortality is not caused by the virus but by the ,,countermeasures".
Another explanation would be that the approximately 200 test-positive deaths of the following week (week 13) have already been included. This would mean that all test-positive deaths are assumed to be additional deaths. However, in view of the age and disease profile as well as international experience, this would be a very doubtful assumption.
In fact, the report adds the following disclaimer: ,,These initial estimates are still very uncertain, so that no exact figures can be published".
If it turns out that a large proportion of test-positive deaths (median age: 83 years) are not additional deaths, either the overall mortality would not be increased, or it would be increased mainly because of the drastic measures, as some experts fear.
Weekly mortality until 22 March 2020 (BFS, data status 31 March 2020)
A Swiss newspaper has presented the current total mortality in comparison with previous years (see graph below). This illustrates that, even if actually increased, the current mortality rate is still below the stronger flu winters of recent years.
Weekly mortality during the year. End date is March 22, not March 31 (TA)
Further information
Virus test kits destined for Great Britain had to be recalled because they already contained corona virus components.
The British Imperial College study, which predicted hundreds of thousands of additional deaths but was never published in a journal or reviewed, was based on largely unrealistic assumptions, as has now been shown.
The BBC asks, ,,Is coronavirus causing the deaths?,,, and replies, ,,It could be the major cause, a contributory factor or simply present when they are dying of something else." For example, an 18-year-old man was reported as the ,,youngest Corona victim" after a positive test the day before his death. However, the hospital later reported that the young man had died of a serious pre-existing condition.
The European health authority ECDC has published very strict guidelines for handling test-positive or ,,presumed test-positive" corpses. In view of the very low mortality rates to date, such guidelines appear questionable from a medical point of view; however, they significantly increase the burden on the health and funeral services, and at the same time have a high media impact.
A German state media outlet has published a critical commentary on Professor Sucharit Bhakdi's Open Letter to Chancellor Merkel.
The ARTE documentary ,,Profiteers of Fear" from 2009 shows how the mainly privately financed WHO ,,upgraded" a harmless wave of influenza (the so-called ,,swine flu") to a global pandemic so that vaccines worth several billion dollars could be sold to governments around the world. Some of the protagonists of that time are again prominently represented in the current situation.
The former judge at the British Supreme Court, Jonathan Sumption, declared in a BBC interview on the British measures: ,,This is what a police state is like".
April 2, 2020 (II)
Already in 2018, the Guardian wrote that ,,Pollution and flu bring steep rise in lung-related illnesses,,: Shortage of specialists adds to worries that surge in respiratory diseases is putting pressure on A&Es.
Professor Martin Haditsch, specialist in microbiology, virology and infection epidemiology, sharply criticises the Covid19 measures. These are ,,completely unfounded" and would ,,trample on sound judgment and ethical principles".
Even representatives of German nursing homes are now complaining about the restrictive measures and inappropriate media coverage of Covid19.
Figures from the northern Italian city of Treviso (near Venice) show that, despite 108 test-positive deaths by the end of March, overall mortality in municipal hospitals remained roughly the same as in previous years. This is a further indication that the temporarily increased mortality in some places is more likely to be due to external factors such as panic and collapse than due to the coronavirus alone.
Professor John Oxford of Queen Mary University London, one of the world's leading virologists and influenza specialists, comes to the following conclusion regarding Covid19: ,,Personally, I would say the best advice is to spend less time watching TV news which is sensational and not very good. Personally, I vi
This thread has now made it into the forum stats page in the list of top 10 threads (by number of posts). It is only number 10 now but I have great hopes for it. ;D
This is a well written article criticising the handling of the data.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think
Check out this channel if you're really into the mathematics of it.
https://youtu.be/VBUHmwHN96U
This whole crisis, if not something outright manufactured, seems to be a huge case of self-fulfilled prophecy. For years, political entities have been waiting with bated breath for such an international outbreak that would serve as pretext to advance their agenda; and the health, academic, and scientific organisations are only too eager to oblige them, if only because it puts them in the spotlight and makes them feel important.
I can only imagine that they feel extremely embarrassed and disappointed by the low death rate, and that's why the media's reporting on it is so hysterical and disproportionate for the most part.
The potential great silver lining in all this, is there's a chance that these political entities have massively overplayed their hand. If the death rate isn't high enough and if the political and economic fallout is too dire, there's a small but real chance that people might wake up to their game and create some opposition. I have no idea what that opposition would look like though or who would lead it, but it's very important to challenge the narrative in the hope that at the very least their plans will be greatly setback or thwarted.
What a beautiful irony it would be if the whole thing was God baiting the powers of this world into showing their true colours in a way that backfires on them.
... And how symbolic if the whole drama could play out in Holy Week.
- check.
USA: 245,000 cases, 6,070 deaths. New deaths still on the curve.
Italy: 115,000 cases, 13,915 deaths. Italy is slowing down.
Quote from: james03 on April 02, 2020, 07:25:33 PM
USA: 245,000 cases, 6,070 deaths. New deaths still on the curve.
With the bulk of them in NY.
49 percent of U.S. cases are currently in NY.Again, people need to watch the right-hand bar graphs on the NYT. If your own county -- which is where you are probably spending at least 90% of your time right now, if not 100% -- has been showing a consistent decline in cases over the last several weeks, the fact that there are 6,070 deaths worldwide and 245K in the U.S. should not concern your personal health unless you have permission to fly or have been commanded to fly as a pilot or passenger to highly infected areas in Europe or the U.S., etc.
My county still has single-digit deaths.
QuoteItaly: 115,000 cases, 13,915 deaths. Italy is slowing down.
As will other countries, and we won't be traveling to any country outside the U.S. until we get the clear.
Same in my country, most deaths in the capital and l'm hearing that their hospitals are at full capacity. They had to send one patient to the busy hospital near me due to lack of bed. We were busier at Christmas when the Minister for health was begging people not to go to overcrowded ER rooms.
How does one explain Italy and Spain though? the scenes of nurses and doctors with bruised faces?
QuoteThose of you who have spent any time debating or discussing the current coronavirus "pandemic" on social media will almost certainly have encountered an argument that goes something like this:
"Coronavirus is nothing like the flu, the seasonal flu doesn't overwhelm health services like this."
But is this true? We've done some research.
In 2018 hospitals all across the United States were full to capacity with flu patients. Alabama declared a state of emergency. Elective surgeries were cancelled, patients were turned away.
California hospitals were "war zones" where people were treated in hastily erected tents.
The same year ICUs in Milan were "totally overrun" with flu cases.
In December of 2019 the NHS had to implement "emergency temporary beds" in 52% of its hospitals to account for their regular "winter crisis". Most of those hospitals still had temporary beds operating from the previous winter.
Last November experts were publishing reports warning that the NHS was under too much pressure to deal with the seasonal flu.
The 2009 Swine Flu pandemic turned out to be no worse than a bad flu season in the end, but nevertheless had a huge impact on hospitals across the United States.
Going by just the last couple of years, the evidence suggests flu severely impacts health services quite frequently.
Raising the question: How does the current state of ICUs compare with these other recent crises? To which, we must remember, no one ever suggested the solution was destroying the economy and instituting a police state.
https://off-guardian.org/2020/04/02/coronavirus-fact-check-1-flu-doesnt-overwhelm-our-hospitals/
Good site to keep track of. The comment section tends to be good too.
Quote from: John Lamb on April 02, 2020, 06:13:05 PM
The potential great silver lining in all this, is there's a chance that these political entities have massively overplayed their hand. If the death rate isn't high enough and if the political and economic fallout is too dire, there's a small but real chance that people might wake up to their game and create some opposition.
I have realized in recent days that the anger I have felt for the last month isn't so much toward would be totalitarian dictators such as the governor of my state, but towards the disappointingly high percentage of my fellow citizens (including family members) who seem to have lost all ability to think critically based on facts.
We all know that mass media has been used for decades to push social and political agendas but I'm discouraged to see the success which has been attained in being able to completely neutralize any opposition to unconstitutional Executive orders while steering social behavior which is nothing more than an experiment.
There will be no opposition. The elites now see what a bunch of passive sheep this generation of scientist worshipping, technology and creature comfort obsessed wimps we've become.
Humanly speaking, we're screwed.
Quote from: abc123 on April 03, 2020, 06:39:41 AM
Quote from: John Lamb on April 02, 2020, 06:13:05 PM
The potential great silver lining in all this, is there's a chance that these political entities have massively overplayed their hand. If the death rate isn't high enough and if the political and economic fallout is too dire, there's a small but real chance that people might wake up to their game and create some opposition.
I have realized in recent days that the anger I have felt for the last month isn't so much toward would be totalitarian dictators such as the governor of my state, but towards the disappointingly high percentage of my fellow citizens (including family members) who seem to have lost all ability to think critically based on facts.
We all know that mass media has been used for decades to push social and political agendas but I'm discouraged to see the success which has been attained in being able to completely neutralize any opposition to unconstitutional Executive orders while steering social behavior which is nothing more than an experiment.
There will be no opposition. The elites now see what a bunch of passive sheep this generation of scientist worshipping, technology and creature comfort obsessed wimps we've become.
Humanly speaking, we're screwed.
Good post. My thoughts exactly, which I internalized last night. However, I am not letting you go without admonishment: Anglican? Really? Orthodoxy is bad enough, but Anglicanism? C'mon, man!
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51979654?SThisFB&fbclid=IwAR3NQTUJRMWw5ntWp95YPiRSjATnCws8wBeEQUVker2loA8srFHzmlmKG-w#
Well at least this is making it into main stream media.
Met a neighbour whom I don't see very often, she and her 20 something daughter started straight away into the madness of it all. there's hope!!
Google have allowed access to their database for tracking people according to RTE.
Quote from: Heinrich on April 03, 2020, 07:03:58 AM
Quote from: abc123 on April 03, 2020, 06:39:41 AM
Quote from: John Lamb on April 02, 2020, 06:13:05 PM
The potential great silver lining in all this, is there's a chance that these political entities have massively overplayed their hand. If the death rate isn't high enough and if the political and economic fallout is too dire, there's a small but real chance that people might wake up to their game and create some opposition.
I have realized in recent days that the anger I have felt for the last month isn't so much toward would be totalitarian dictators such as the governor of my state, but towards the disappointingly high percentage of my fellow citizens (including family members) who seem to have lost all ability to think critically based on facts.
We all know that mass media has been used for decades to push social and political agendas but I'm discouraged to see the success which has been attained in being able to completely neutralize any opposition to unconstitutional Executive orders while steering social behavior which is nothing more than an experiment.
There will be no opposition. The elites now see what a bunch of passive sheep this generation of scientist worshipping, technology and creature comfort obsessed wimps we've become.
Humanly speaking, we're screwed.
Good post. My thoughts exactly, which I internalized last night. However, I am not letting you go without admonishment: Anglican? Really? Orthodoxy is bad enough, but Anglicanism? C'mon, man!
That's fair. I am after all an arguably unwelcome guest here. If you are truly interested in getting a better understanding of where I'm at I'm willing to take it to PM.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/B2C7/production/_111376754_optimised-corona_deaths-nc.png)
This is the practically unfalsifiable pseudoscience they are going to throw at us when viral devastation doesn't happen. See, we saved you. See, lockdown works.
Yes and the rest of the article questions this?
Regarding the naval ships, Comfort and Mercy, a different perspective...
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7T5lySFZ8[/yt]
If questions about the Covid figures make it into the mainstream media as they are beginning to do, and people start flouting the lockdown as they are already doing, what will be the response from 'them', the elites? Will they back down or double down?
I was out shopping earlier in my local area of London and there are far more people out and about now than when the lockdown began. This started about a week ago with a slow day by day increase until today when it looked like a normal day out there. The atmosphere has also changed. People are beginning to make their presence felt again. Instead of scurrying around in fear, they are more relaxed and are laughing and chatting.
It would be easy for the elites to save face by instructing their bought and paid for MSM to announce that Covid was defeated by the lockdown. If they do, maybe the NWO will be put on hold for a while. Or they might simply implement the next stage of the programme by introducing stricter measures to enforce the lockdown. People won't endure being stuck at home during the summer.
Hospital staff complain (https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0403/1128300-ppe-covid-19-ireland/) about new Chinese PPE gear. Perhaps Chinese have short arms, because that gear seems worthless in any circumstance.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 03, 2020, 09:36:58 AM
I was out shopping earlier in my local area of London and there are far more people out and about now than when the lockdown began. This started about a week ago with a slow day by day increase until today when it looked like a normal day out there. The atmosphere has also changed. People are beginning to make their presence felt again. Instead of scurrying around in fear, they are more relaxed and are laughing and chatting.
While I wasn't shopping, I have noticed that over the last week, automobile traffic in my region has tripled. Please do not tell me, anyone, that there are now even more "essential services." It's clear to me that people are relaxing and not allowing themselves to be subjugated and paralyzed by terror of imaginary, magical kinds of viruses that behave in supernatural viral ways rather than biological virus ways -- you know the kinds of "travels" that viruses make, such as needing hosts, such as sticking to surfaces and substances and tissues instead of permeating the entire atmosphere of a region, like pollution really does and like smoke particulates from mega-fires do.
There is no evidence, except in the imaginations of the ignorant or the malevolent, that viruses have the capacity to exponentially "explode" on their own, independently of an environment. Their level of
opportunity is tied to an environment "friendly" (accessible) to them; their level of
aggression is tied to the hosts which they attack and the resistance level of that particular human body.
The way you keep people in their houses is to say or imply that something is literally everywhere, not that it is
potentially everywhere, but that it
is "everywhere" right now, today, Friday in the U.S.
No, it is not "everywhere." It is in specific locations, even globally, and for specific reasons, globally. We may not have all of the data for those locations and reasons, but a lot can be deduced from the data that we do have.
For example, there is enormously more travel (globally) above the equator than below. Look at the maps on the NYT and see the difference in infection above and below. And we've already been through the business of the most vulnerable kinds of human body hosts (the aged, the immunity-compromised, the ones with underlying conditions). So, the public got wind of that, and the MSM countered with (and they do this nightly), "But look at so-and-so person who was 30 and no underlying condition (that we know of)." "See, it can happen to anybody!" And "anybody" is cleverly transformed in the next news segment to "everybody." Thus, because it's
possible that a seemingly healthy 30-year-old will get it, it is also supposedly equally
probable that he or she will get it.
Wrong. It is not
equally probable that a 30 year old who truly has been practicing social distancing for quite some time, hasn't traveled domestically or internationally, has practiced meticulous hygiene for months, is in excellent internal condition (including nutritionally), has never smoked, has never vaped, has been in no close contact with infected family members, is not in a high-risk occupation (medicine, other first responders), has not been employed in a couple of months, is going to become infected, and then, is going to die
as it is probable that
a person of ANY age who does
not meet all of those criteria will become infected -- and depending on bodily factors and speed/quality of treatment -- will die.
So, it's not just exaggerations that the media is complicit in. They are outright
lies from just a mathematical and scientific set of standards of truth and accuracy.
Quote from: Miriam_M on April 03, 2020, 11:58:40 AM
While I wasn't shopping, I have noticed that over the last week, automobile traffic in my region has tripled. Please do not tell me, anyone, that there are now even more "essential services." It's clear to me that people are relaxing and not allowing themselves to be subjugated and paralyzed by terror of imaginary, magical kinds of viruses that behave in supernatural viral ways rather than biological virus ways -- you know the kinds of "travels" that viruses make, such as needing hosts, such as sticking to surfaces and substances and tissues instead of permeating the entire atmosphere of a region, like pollution really does and like smoke particulates from mega-fires do.
People are definitely relaxing. And because good weather is forecast for this weekend, the UK government has seen fit to come out with this warning.
Quote
Health Secretary Matt Hancock has ordered Brits to stay home as the weekend forecast brings sunshine, warning it's not a request - "it's an instruction".
It comes as as the UK's death toll earlier increased to 3,605, Britain suffered its deadliest day yet with 684 people dying from coronavirus in 24 hours.
"The disease is still spreading and we absolutely cannot afford to relax the social distancing measures we have in place.
"We cannot relax our discipline now. If we do, people will die.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/breaking-government-orders-brits-to-stay-home-this-weekend-and-says-its-not-a-request/ar-BB128lBJ?ocid=spartanntp
"This is not a request." Oh dear. What are they going to do?
To be honest I can't imagine some kind of mass rebellion this weekend just because of a bit of Spring sunshine. Instead I think there will be a slow but steady build up of people who will grow more resistant to the lockdown and if they close the parks and gardens, then the streets will fill up instead. What's a city without street life. London recently has reminded me of Moscow in the 1970s - no street life, none whatsoever, no cafes, no bars, no people standing around chatting, no kids messing about, no life.
Quote from: Prayerful on April 03, 2020, 10:08:24 AM
Hospital staff complain (https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0403/1128300-ppe-covid-19-ireland/) about new Chinese PPE gear. Perhaps Chinese have short arms, because that gear seems worthless in any circumstance.
They're made in China. They're probably faulty in many aspects.
Quote from: Lynne on April 03, 2020, 09:27:13 AM
Regarding the naval ships, Comfort and Mercy, a different perspective...
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7T5lySFZ8[/yt]
Sound wonderful but isn't it too good to be true.
Wife tested positive today. Prayers for her speedy recovery. :pray2: Hospital won't let her come back to work til she's asymptotic and tests negative, me either for med facility I work at til she's ok. So we're under quarantine for possibly 2 weeks. Earlier if she gets better and I don't get sick from her.
So we're buckled in til God knows when. Good we stocked up. It'll be lots of reading, videos, SD posts, prayer schedule, work outs. Should be able to take care of a lot of personal tasks. Plus should be getting emergency sick leave pay. :thumbsup:
Quote from: christulsa on April 03, 2020, 04:59:19 PM
Wife tested positive today. Prayers for her speedy recovery. :pray2: Hospital won't let her come back to work til she's asymptotic and tests negative, me either for med facility I work at til she's ok. So we're under quarantine for possibly 2 weeks. Earlier if she gets better and I don't get sick from her.
So we're buckled in til God knows when. Good we stocked up. It'll be lots of reading, videos, SD posts, prayer schedule, work outs. Should be able to take care of a lot of personal tasks. Plus should be getting emergency sick leave pay. :thumbsup:
Prayers for you both :pray3:
Chris,
Hope you all do ok. I MIGHT have had it. Might have been the flu, didn't get tested. Annoying dry cough and fever. I spent three days in bed as soon as I got feverish, which I think was the key. Main problem is to have some books or laptop because eventually you get sick of being in bed.
I also took potassium, D3, Zinc, among other things. Stay hydrated.
If you wife starts getting a fever, send her to bed.
Keep us posted.
USA: 277,000 cases, 7,391 dead.
Italy: 120,000 cases, 14,681 dead.
Quote from: james03 on April 03, 2020, 06:10:33 PM
Chris,
Hope you all do ok. I MIGHT have had it. Might have been the flu, didn't get tested. Annoying dry cough and fever. I spent three days in bed as soon as I got feverish, which I think was the key. Main problem is to have some books or laptop because eventually you get sick of being in bed.
I also took potassium, D3, Zinc, among other things. Stay hydrated.
If you wife starts getting a fever, send her to bed.
Keep us posted.
Thanks James. Crazy to think she's one of only 175 confirmed cases in Tulsa, though I suspect that's a small fraction of those who presently have it.
Talked to the Physician Assistant today, wouldn't order a test since I'm asymptomatic. Seems unreasonable since I work with high risk patients and am now under quarantine with someone who is positive. Plus she thought my 14 day quarantine would start today even though wife's hospital told her it started for her a week ago, and I'm asymptomatic. I convinced her to consider releasing me next week if/when her work releases her to return to work. I'd rather return ASAP when it's reasonable to do so than be imprisoned in my house. Plus I didn't stock up on wine or booze so I might be tempted to run down the street for a curb side pickup with face mask on.
QuotePlus I didn't stock up on wine or booze
Darn newbie prepper. That's the first thing to take care of. Along with some choice leaf.
Remember, don't be an idiot. If you start to run some fever, or if the annoying dry cough shows up, get your arse into bed and get it over with.
Take care.
Quote from: james03 on April 03, 2020, 07:08:13 PM
QuotePlus I didn't stock up on wine or booze
Darn newbie prepper. That's the first thing to take care of. Along with some choice leaf.
Remember, don't be an idiot. If you start to run some fever, or if the annoying dry cough shows up, get your arse into bed and get it over with.
Take care.
Um yeah but do I get to do one last whiskey run? This could last 2 long weeks. If not, I'm going to need a local Okie Trad reading this to volunteer. Will give a tip.
Update from my reply 1449:
Out today, on my way to a private Mass, I noticed the same phenomenon as earlier in the week: freeway traffic in the last 7 seven days, any particular day, is triple what it was two weeks ago. That is very good news. It means that some people aren't shaking in their boots and taking it lying down. For example, today I saw a "non-essential" business brave enough to be open (yay!), even so far as to place a sandwich board on the sidewalk in front of the store. I love that kind of defiance. No, it wasn't a medical supply outfit, etc., but it also wasn't frivolous recreation.
Our area is trending downward and people see no need to operate in terror, nor do I.
Today, at the trad church I visit, Father spent three hours in the confessional, God bless him, until everyone's confession was heard. There was quite a line.
Christula, were you not sick over a week ago?
Miriam, I got a contact for a guy to replace our polythene on our polytunnel and asked him to keep us in mind for when the restrictions lift, he said he'd come over before then, didn't believe we needed this lockdown and told me he was a heavy smoker and a diabetic and he didn't care at all about this !!!! I told him I'd make him tea when he's here ;D
Quote from: Lynne on April 03, 2020, 09:27:13 AM
Regarding the naval ships, Comfort and Mercy, a different perspective...
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7T5lySFZ8[/yt]
If this is true then bring on the events that lead to the Chastisement. There is no going back and thank God. :pray3:
Quote from: diaduit on April 04, 2020, 02:26:03 AM
Christula, were you not sick over a week ago?
tested positive for flu 3 weeks ago, symptom free last 2 weeks. good news,liquor stores here now allowed to deliver.
Quote from: christulsa on April 04, 2020, 07:06:15 AM
Quote from: diaduit on April 04, 2020, 02:26:03 AM
Christula, were you not sick over a week ago?
tested positive for flu 3 weeks ago, symptom free last 2 weeks. good news,liquor stores here now allowed to deliver.
Tip well, drink moderately. All the best.
In regards to that video, 8 minutes in this First Saturday of April 2020, ~9:15 EST: :pray2: :madsmiley:
Quote from: Heinrich on April 04, 2020, 07:14:59 AM
Quote from: christulsa on April 04, 2020, 07:06:15 AM
Quote from: diaduit on April 04, 2020, 02:26:03 AM
Christula, were you not sick over a week ago?
tested positive for flu 3 weeks ago, symptom free last 2 weeks. good news,liquor stores here now allowed to deliver.
Tip well, drink moderately. All the best.
Buckling down for 2 weeks, thanks to the CDC. Whiskey sodas and the rosary will get us through it. That and instacart. I do mostly club soda with a splash of spirits, sometimes adding mint from herb plants in the front flower bed, sipped on slowly throughout the day for me maintains a buzz without going over the top. And its refreshingly effervescent.
Quote from: diaduit on April 04, 2020, 02:26:03 AM
Christula, were you not sick over a week ago?
Miriam, I got a contact for a guy to replace our polythene on our polytunnel and asked him to keep us in mind for when the restrictions lift, he said he'd come over before then, didn't believe we needed this lockdown and told me he was a heavy smoker and a diabetic and he didn't care at all about this !!!! I told him I'd make him tea when he's here ;D
You are a doll :thumbsup: and so is he :thumbsup:
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 49: New Data on COVID-19 vs Other Viral Infections (Ventilator Outcomes)
Dr. Seheult discusses new data on outcomes for COVID-19 patients who are in need of mechanical ventilation or critical care - compared to the data for patients with other viral cases of pneumonia (non-COVID-19).
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaIzj3s3p4A[/yt]
I'm noticing that as time goes on, *some* people I know are beginning to question all this "social distancing", involuntary home imprisonment, outdoors fearmongering, media circus, etc. I'm still seeing quite a bit of people (people walking their dogs, families with kids, etc) out during the warm spring afternoons; the boys across the street playing basketball; a black neighbor out coaching his sons about basketball (or maybe football), etc. My mother-as she was going to work-saw about 7 or 8 Hispanic girls getting together in their uniforms to play soccer, excited to be seeing each other again...why would anyone snitch on some young middle school girls outside in the field near the park (if that were to be the case)?
My very good Protestant friend that I work with wanted to eat lunch with me as soon as it was announced that "work would be closed" due to an employee supposedly testing positive for the covid. But where could we go with all parks, restaurants, etc. closed? The safest place was to sit in his car in the work parking lot (after clocking out) eating lunch and yapping for 3 hours. He came over to my house yesterday and I'm going to his apartment tonight for a movie and dinner.
I still go out jogging 3 times a week and still preparing for the indefinite start of soccer season. I was told by my trainer that as soon as the covid panic is over, he expects us to schedule our field training and expect soccer games beginning "at some point."
I still take the necessary precautions in my family "to keep the peace." I have no problem with people that want to *voluntarily* isolate themselves, especially those considered "highly at risk." Even my sister-with all the disagreements we have over everything else in life-is starting to calm down and questions the numbers of purported "covid cases." My mother told me that at where she works, a very slow speaking, computerized voices comes on the intercom telling people to retain their distance of 6 feet blah blah. She said it reminds her of communism or "the gulag" as she calls it, since her family comes from Russia and Eastern Europe. My sister still takes coffee to her older boyfriend.
Despite what everyone thinks about the po-po, I don't see any police vehicles out anymore than they usually are. As they are probably making their normal rounds anyway. If anything I like when the local po-po come through my neighborhood to visit and wave at them. Not all of them are corrupt or violent fools; many of them are just regular people living in the community. If anything I support our local suburban police force as they have helped me tremendously in the past (my car getting stuck in the snow and an officer helping me back out of the curb, God bless his soul).
What's very sad is all the unnecessary unemotional of millions of Americans; the probable rise in suicides and domestic crimes/violence; increases in anxiety and depression; potential for rioting and looting (at some point?); common civilians taking "the law into their own hands;" communist snitching; the cancellation of necessary appointments for mental health, behavioral health, physical health; people avoiding hospitals for fear of catching the covid...
Millions will die but it won't be from the covid, it will be from the evil "Deep State"/NWO/Powers-that-be/Cowardly Politicians that allow the perpetuation of the false narrative that we all need to imprison ourselves in our homes and let evil ruin our economy and society. Even worse, the millions of souls in jeopardy because every single American bishop (including my own bishop!) have sold themselves into slavery to the evil politicians and rich bankers. Protestant churches and Muslims are doing outreach in their local communities.
Other than a few good parish priests, I mostly see Catholics in my area (and ones that I know personally) being duped by the covid and being too obedient to everything their archbishops/cardinals/pope tell them. I hope the covid cleanses not only the filth in Rome, but perhaps among some of our bishops too.
I don't care. I'm going to pray in front of my parish tomorrow morning and no one is going to stop me.
Another perspective on current events, connecting some dots...
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/putin-trump-versus-new-world-order-final-battle (https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/putin-trump-versus-new-world-order-final-battle)
Quote
I said earlier that everyday brings amazing news. Well on Sunday March 29th, the most
stunning of them all fell like a ton of bricks on social medias: confined onlookers learned
that Trump had taken control over the Federal Reserve, that is now handled by two
representatives of the Treasury of State. Of all the crazy news within the last month, this is
by far the best and most shocking. After three years in power, Trump has finally fulfilled his
electoral promise of taking private banks out of the US public affairs, ending a century of
exploitation of the American citizens. He has put the infamous Blackrock investment group
to start buying important corporations for the Fed, meaning that he's nationalizing chunks
of the economy, while avoiding the crash of the market by implicating important private
investors in the deal.
This utmost daring move comes at a crucial point in time, and faces us with the realization
that Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump are united and have taken humanity to the
crossroads of the New World Order and freedom. As I have stated often before, I thought
that the world would deeply change between 2020 and 2024, because these would be the
last 4 years of these two heroes in political power of their nations.
The New World Order is facing the two most powerful countries on the planet, and
this fake pandemic changed everything. It showed how desperate the banksters are,
and if we don't want to end up with nuclear warheads flying in both directions, Putin
and Trump have to stop them now.
Terminate the BIS, the World Bank, the IMF, the European Central bank, the EU, NATO, now.
Our world won't be perfect, but it might get much better soon.
Easter resurrection is coming. This might get biblical.
Here is what I just heard from my friend who's friend is a nurse. She says that a hospital she works in in LONG Island is very quiet and almost empty. Another girl told us that her nurse friend quit her job after she was told to lie about covid cases. This is for real I am not making this up.
We need nurses and doctors to start admitting the real story.
I am so sick of the saccharine self worship posts on social media from the 'frontline staff'!! Everyday , same post done differently.....we are putting our lives on the line for you.....day in day out. Supermarket staff are at it too. I don't want to knock nurses and doctors as by and large they are a fantastic bunch but really its too much. Latest one, paramedic friend of hubby (he posts endlessly) 'post a picture of you in your frontline uniform' and the usual how we are out helping save lives.
Its more fishing for compliments, worse than a narcissist on a date.
Quote from: diaduit on April 04, 2020, 05:33:19 PM
We need nurses and doctors to start admitting the real story.
I am so sick of the saccharine self worship posts on social media from the 'frontline staff'!! Everyday , same post done differently.....we are putting our lives on the line for you.....day in day out. Supermarket staff are at it too. I don't want to knock nurses and doctors as by and large they are a fantastic bunch but really its too much. Latest one, paramedic friend of hubby (he posts endlessly) 'post a picture of you in your frontline uniform' and the usual how we are out helping save lives.
Its more fishing for compliments, worse than a narcissist on a date.
Fortunately, I see a great deal of altruism locally, but perhaps the reason I see it rather than read about it is that those engaging in it have no time to post.
;)
USA: 311,000 cases, 8,452 dead. USA looking like its close to the peak. I'm upping the double time to 5 days. We were about a week behind Italy, so peak should be by next weekend.
Italy: 125,000 cases, 15,362 dead. Italy is past the peak. Which means a large chunk of their population is probably immune by now. Total cases will be about double of the peak day, so call it 25,000 total dead. I'm adjusting double time to 16 days.
Basically Covid is the flu that gets transmitted from contact. Hospitals are the major infection/spread vector. On the good side, in the US I imagine a lot of people already have antibodies. What defines success? When everyone has antibodies. The quickest way to get there is to end the separation.
#EndThePanic
Quote from: diaduit on April 04, 2020, 05:33:19 PM
We need nurses and doctors to start admitting the real story.
I am so sick of the saccharine self worship posts on social media from the 'frontline staff'!! Everyday , same post done differently.....we are putting our lives on the line for you.....day in day out. Supermarket staff are at it too. I don't want to knock nurses and doctors as by and large they are a fantastic bunch but really its too much. Latest one, paramedic friend of hubby (he posts endlessly) 'post a picture of you in your frontline uniform' and the usual how we are out helping save lives.
Its more fishing for compliments, worse than a narcissist on a date.
Quote from: martin88nyc on April 04, 2020, 03:12:11 PM
Here is what I just heard from my friend who's friend is a nurse. She says that a hospital she works in in LONG Island is very quiet and almost empty. Another girl told us that her nurse friend quit her job after she was told to lie about covid cases. This is for real I am not making this up.
(https://i.imgur.com/H9mXsjb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BYJHStC.jpg)
Dr. Birx keeps talking about the "logarithmic" curve. She's in charge?
Went to the beach today with the whole family in the Previa bus. No roadblocks no checks, despite BBC media scare stories. Saw a couple of police cars coming the other way in a roundtrip of 90 miles. Nice picnic, 4 hours in the sunshine. Wife drank Corona beer (it is very cheap at the moment) . Some Poles were fishing 100 yards to our left and 2 couples in their twenties were walking up and down the beach. Other than that place was deserted. Nobody for miles either way. Great day out here. Blue skies and 68F.
Going again on Thursday. Probably to Herne Bay or Broadstairs (Bishop Williamson's town)
These locked down lemmings are compliant idiots but I am glad they are hiding in their homes because the roads and beaches are empty. Great for me.
When the lockdown ends of course the virus will keep spreading. And the economy will be wrecked as well.
From: https://spectator.us/coronavirus-origins-tom-cotton-media/
"The exact origins of COVID-19, the novel coronavirus, remain unknown. We know only that it began in the Wuhan province in China, but the Chinese Communist party has gone to great lengths to obfuscate the full picture of its initial spread.
Journalists should be clamoring for this information.
?But, for a large section of the American media, who have engaged in China apologia over the course of the past few months, challenging China or by proxy the World Health Organization is completely off limits.
?Last week, Sen. Tom Cotton told Fox Business host Maria Bartiromo that 'we need to get to the bottom' of where the virus came from. After he suggested several possibilities as to its origins, members of the national press jumped in to accuse him of fear mongering and branded him a conspiracy theorist. Outlets from HuffPost to NBC News attacked Cotton because he dared to mention the theory that the virus could be a repurposed biological weapon unleashed on purpose by the Chinese government, never mind that his quotes were in fact quite more nuanced than how the media reported them.
?'I would note that Wuhan, the province where the ailment was first reported, has China's only biosafety level 4 super-laboratory that works with the world's most deadly pathogens to include, yes, coronavirus,' Cotton said. 'Now, we don't have evidence that this disease originated there, but because of China's duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says.'
?Nothing there suggests Cotton is a tinfoil hat-wearing Alex Jones wannabe, but that didn't stop multiple news outlets from painting him that way.
Those same outlets should be eating crow because now some experts are buying into the theory that the SARS-CoV-2 virus may have escaped one of Wuhan's virology institute laboratories. On the heels of a Tucker Carlson segment highlighting the work Wuhan Institute of Virology does in examining viruses originating in horseshoe bats, one of the first experts cited by multiple media outlets to paint Cotton as a lunatic is now backing the possibility that the virus was leaked from the laboratory, either intentionally or not.
?Richard Ebright, a chemical biology professor for Rutgers University told the Washington Post that 'there's absolutely nothing in the genome sequence of this virus that indicates the virus was engineered.' Take that, Cotton! Except Cotton never claimed that the virus was engineered, only that it may have escaped a lab. Which, funnily enough, is exactly what Ebright also suggested. Ebright 'could not rule out the possibility that the unfolding pandemic could be the result of a lab incident,' according to the Asia Times.
Ebright also said 'yes' when the Daily Caller asked him directly if the virus could have leaked from a lab.
?It's not a good look for media outlets to again fall in line with the narrative coming out of China, a country whose officials have also accused the US Army of engineering the virus and releasing it into Wuhan. Twitter refused to ban those officials, and there was no mass snark tweeting or fact checking done by the same journalists who called Cotton a crackpot.
?Maybe that's because it's easier for members of the American media to attack a senator from a party that most of them ideologically oppose on a personal level. Or maybe it is something much more nefarious — that the media companies who sign the paychecks are much more invested in China and therefore willing to cede editorial standards in their coverage to the CCP. Maybe that's also worth looking into."
From: https://vactruth.com/2014/10/05/bill-gates-vaccine-crimes/
"As Bill Gates faces a lawsuit for the illegal testing of tribal children in India, it appears that his crimes against humanity have finally caught up with him.
A recent report published by Health Impact News has reported that the Gates Foundation has found itself facing a pending lawsuit, due to an investigation that is being carried out by the Supreme Courts of India.
Health Impact News stated:
"While fraud and corruption are revealed on almost a daily basis now in the vaccine industry, the U.S. mainstream media continues to largely ignore such stories. Outside the U.S., however, the vaccine empires are beginning to crumble, and English versions of the news in mainstream media outlets are available via the Internet.
One such country is India, where the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and their vaccine empire are under fire, including a pending lawsuit currently being investigated by the India Supreme Court." [1]
The Health Impact News article centered largely on a four-page report that was recently published by Economic Times India.
Eager to know more, I investigated their story and discovered that the World Health Organization, the Gates Foundation and two organizations funded by them, PATH (Program for Appropriate Technology in Health) and GAVI (Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization), have found themselves under fire, after a writ of petition originally submitted to the Supreme Court of India, by Kalpana Mehta, Nalini Bhanot and Dr. Rukmini Rao in 2012, was finally heard by the courts.
The petitioners submitting the petition stated:
"BMGF, PATH and WHO were criminally negligent trialling the vaccines on a vulnerable, uneducated and under-informed population school administrators, students and their parents who were not provided informed consent or advised of potential adverse effects or required to be monitored post-vaccination." [2]
Young Tribal Girls Tested With HPV Vaccines
The Economic Times India published their report August 2014. They stated that in 2009, tests had been carried out on 16,000 tribal school children in Andhra Pradesh, India, using the human papiloma virus (HPV) vaccine, Gardasil.
According to the report written by KP Narayana Kumar, within a month of receiving the vaccine, many of the children fell ill and by 2010, five of them had died. A further two children were reported to have died in Vadodara, Gujarat, where an estimated 14,000 tribal children were vaccinated with another brand of the HPV vaccine, Cervarix, manufactured by GlaxoSmitheKline (GSK).
Shockingly, the report stated that many of the consent forms used to vaccinate the girls were signed "illegally," either by the wardens from the hostels where many of the girls resided, or using thumbprints from illiterate parents.
This travesty was not discovered until a team of health activists from the non-government organization SAMA, an organization specializing in women's health, decided to investigate what had been going on.
According to the report, they were shocked to discover that a total of 120 girls had been taken ill, suffering from a variety of symptoms, including "epileptic seizures, severe stomach aches, headaches and mood swings."
The Economic Times stated:
"The Sama report also said there had been cases of early onset of menstruation following the vaccination, heavy bleeding and severe menstrual cramps among many students. The standing committee pulled up the relevant state governments for the shoddy investigation into these deaths.
It said it was disturbed to find that 'all the seven deaths were summarily dismissed as unrelated to vaccinations without in-depth investigations ...' the speculative causes were suicides, accidental drowning in well (why not suicide?), malaria, viral infections, subarachnoid hemorrhage (without autopsy) etc."
This information is even more shocking when you discover that the organization funding the study was none other than the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, who declared the project a total success."
Bravo India, jail that lunatic once and for all.
Scientist with the exact opposite opinion on how to stop coronavirus.
https://kfyi.iheart.com/featured/the-conservative-circus-with-james-t-harris/content/2020-04-04-dr-fauci-vs-this-guy-professor-knut-wittkowski-on-the-coronavirus/
Quote from: Jmartyr on April 05, 2020, 01:29:22 PM
Scientist with the exact opposite opinion on how to stop coronavirus.
https://kfyi.iheart.com/featured/the-conservative-circus-with-james-t-harris/content/2020-04-04-dr-fauci-vs-this-guy-professor-knut-wittkowski-on-the-coronavirus/
This was actually my instinct all along. Herd immunity. Go OUTSIDE, not INSIDE. The virus thrives INSIDE.
Here is a link to the week 13 Euromomo death statistics.
http://www.euromomo.eu
Italy and Spain have been upgraded to "very high" on the map, and the graph shows a bump on several age groups. The caveat that information may be lagging or somehow not showing up remains.
The "bump" on several of the charts looks weird and like it's out of the historical norm. With that said, the totals are currently still well below some recent years. And from what I've heard, Italy's numbers are flattening.
I think this is a good quality, big picture information source, something that has been lacking for most of this thread.
Quote from: Jmartyr on April 05, 2020, 01:29:22 PM
Scientist with the exact opposite opinion on how to stop coronavirus.
https://kfyi.iheart.com/featured/the-conservative-circus-with-james-t-harris/content/2020-04-04-dr-fauci-vs-this-guy-professor-knut-wittkowski-on-the-coronavirus/
That was very interesting thanks for posting. Direct link to YouTube below.
https://youtu.be/lGC5sGdz4kg
How is herd immunity working out for us all with regards to the other 4 benign coronaviruses or, say, the influenza viruses? People keep catching the cold (coronaviruses) and the flu as these viruses continually mutate.
This virus will go away like how the Spanish influenza went away, which is to say we don't really know how or why, just that it did. My guess is that over a year or two it will mutate into less lethal forms and merely become a new common cold. Until that time countries will decide whether they want to continue on trying to prevent it or carry on with life and accept the deaths. I suspect the West will call it quits in a few weeks and then mandate ineffective vaccines while issuing directives to the media to stop reporting on all things virus (state secrets).
However the Greatest Depression will last for years.
USA: 336,000 cases, 9,605 dead. I predicted 9,000 last Sunday, so right on the curve. Bumping up to 4 day double time gives us a predicted 32,000 dead by next Sunday. I think we'll be near peak by next weekend, so around 70,000 total dead after this burns itself out. Very rough guess.
Italy: 129,000 cases, 15,887 dead. I predicted 19,000 dead last Sunday, so they've started the slow down due to immunity. I'm upping the double time to 16 days, which give a prediction of 21,500 dead by next Sunday. Note that the US will pass Italy in number of dead this week.
Economic depression is the main problem. If the stock market is going to test 1800, it will be this week. The Fed is on scene so predicting the market is not something you can do reliably (as a bear) right now. The longer they keep things shut down, the more damage is being done.
Fitting your the one to trip page #100.
QuoteThat was very interesting thanks for posting. Direct link to YouTube below.
Unfortunately I won't get to ring the cow bell. Maybe the economic depression will start WWIII and I'll get another shot.
He predicted 10,000 dead. He's off. But still if we end up with 50,000 dead, added to the flu dead, we just had a bad flu year. Nothing catastrophic.
The main problem will/is economic. And that's bad. Real bad.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 05, 2020, 05:26:01 PM
How is herd immunity working out for us all with regards to the other 4 benign coronaviruses or, say, the influenza viruses? People keep catching the cold (coronaviruses) and the flu as these viruses continually mutate.
He addressed that.
Just a sec though. If Professor Knut thinks herd immunity would work, then he must also think that the flu shots work. You know, because they do basically the same thing, build up immunity to certain flu and viruses. But I'd question whether the flu shots work. Who knows, maybe it's those that get the flu shot that are spreading it. I don't even like being around people that got the flu shot.
James why would you say Italy has "started the slow down due to immunity"? Italy didn't do the herd immunity thing. They did physical distancing big time, shutting down the whole country.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/3/31/21199874/coronavirus-spanish-flu-social-distancing
Social distancing won't just save lives. It might be better for the economy in the long run.
A study of the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic finds that cities with stricter social distancing reaped economic benefits.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862334/
"Destroyer and Teacher": Managing the Masses During the 1918–1919 Influenza Pandemic
SYNOPSIS
The Spanish influenza arrived in the United States at a time when new forms of mass transportation, mass media, mass consumption, and mass warfare had vastly expanded the public places in which communicable diseases could spread. Faced with a deadly "crowd" disease, public health authorities tried to implement social-distancing measures at an unprecedented level of intensity. Recent historical work suggests that the early and sustained imposition of gathering bans, school closures, and other social-distancing measures significantly reduced mortality rates during the 1918–1919 epidemics. This finding makes it all the more important to understand the sources of resistance to such measures, especially since social-distancing measures remain a vital tool in managing the current H1N1 influenza pandemic. To that end, this historical analysis revisits the public health lessons learned during the 1918–1919 pandemic and reflects on their relevance for the present.
....
QuoteJames why would you say Italy has "started the slow down due to immunity"? Italy didn't do the herd immunity thing. They did physical distancing big time, shutting down the whole country.
1. They were late with their lock down. 100's of thousands were infected early on, but most didn't show symptoms.
2. Hospitals are the largest vectors of infection. So everyone has been infected by hospital workers going out into the community. This is theory until we get anti-body testing results. Anyhow, if you wanted to do a serious lockdown, you'd force the health care workers to bunk in the hospital.
As far as flu, you do get some cross immunity. So you might get the flu again, but it will be less severe. I'd wager close to 100% of the population has flu anti bodies, which is probably why it is relatively benign to people without commorbidities. In fact, it is not flu that kills, but your immune response (assuming commorbidities).
It's hard to take anything Professor Wittkowski says seriously when he claims social distancing has no benefit and then goes on to evidence this claim by saying that Chinese schools were not closed until February 20th but that the epidemic peaked in early February. Meanwhile he doesn't bother to mention that Wuhan went into extreme social lockdown on January 23rd and that the schools were closed even before the lockdown because of Chinese New Year which is a 2 week long holiday that was continuously extended and school has not yet returned even 3 months later! And even if his school closure date were correct (which it isn't and his error evidences precisely the opposite of what he suggests) closing schools pales in comparison to the degree to which the Chinese socially locked down Wuhan before the peak was reached.
He also makes the bald claim that herd immunity was reached in China. Where is his widespread antibody test conducted across the mainland Chinese population? Outside of Hubei province there were few cases of Covid19 anyways precisely because China went into a full scale nationwide lockdown so extreme nothing like it has ever been seen before. For herd immunity to have been reached in China as he claims there would have been a colossal number of cases which simply never happened because China isolated everyone.
Quote from: james03 on April 05, 2020, 10:39:01 PM
QuoteJames why would you say Italy has "started the slow down due to immunity"? Italy didn't do the herd immunity thing. They did physical distancing big time, shutting down the whole country.
1. They were late with their lock down. 100's of thousands were infected early on, but most didn't show symptoms.
2. Hospitals are the largest vectors of infection. So everyone has been infected by hospital workers going out into the community. This is theory until we get anti-body testing results. Anyhow, if you wanted to do a serious lockdown, you'd force the health care workers to bunk in the hospital.
As far as flu, you do get some cross immunity. So you might get the flu again, but it will be less severe. I'd wager close to 100% of the population has flu anti bodies, which is probably why it is relatively benign to people without commorbidities. In fact, it is not flu that kills, but your immune response (assuming commorbidities).
I'd wager that millions of Italians have not come into contact wit covid-19. You know, because they shut down the country.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 05, 2020, 11:32:25 PMOutside of Hubei province there were few cases of Covid19 anyways precisely because China ...
... wasn't testing people on a wide scale throughout the whole country. Otherwise, whatever you choose to believe about the reality of "COVID-19" and this alleged pandemic, they would have
had to have found "cases" at a rate of at least 10-20% of the population, because "COVID-19" tests come back positive for common strains of coronaviruses whose markers are already present at such rates in populations all year round.
That's also why proper, sensible diagnosis and epidemiological counting of "cases" does not include "asymptomatic" carriers and requires verification of cause of illness and death, not a mere positive check mark on any antibody or PCR test.
KR,
Again, I do not care about the tests. I care about whether hospitals are overflowing with people dying of ARDS. This happened in Wuhan. It happened in neighboring cities of Wuhan. It happened no where else in China.
Secondly, here is the latest Korean data from the Korean government:
https://www.cdc.go.kr/board/board.es?mid=&bid=0030
437k total tests with 10k positives.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 06, 2020, 05:15:05 AM
KR,
Again, I do not care about the tests. I care about whether hospitals are overflowing with people dying of ARDS. This happened in Wuhan. It happened in neighboring cities of Wuhan. It happened no where else in China.
Secondly, here is the latest Korean data from the Korean government:
https://www.cdc.go.kr/board/board.es?mid=&bid=0030
437k total tests with 10k positives.
Your quotation, liar:
QuoteOutside of Hubei province there were few cases of Covid19
Yes, we know you don't care about any data that actually would evidence your contention of a novel and extraordinary worldwide single-cause, single-condition pandemic, never mind one actually caused by "COVID-19".
Rather than assume the worst of someone, you could instead try to understand what the person is trying to convey.
I have been consistent that I care about whether or not people are dying of ARDS en masse in hospitals. I do not care about the tests as I have repeatedly said. So when I say "cases" I do not mean the tests you obsess over, but rather instances (cases) of people dying of ARDS or exhibiting symptoms of Covid19 (loss of taste / smell, difficulty breathing, pneumonia shown on CT scan, low oxygen levels in blood, etc).
But since you love the tests, what is your response with regards to your claim of therehaving to be 10-20% test positives? Korea has done 437k tests and only 10k positives, so 2% positive. You are off by an order of magnitude at your base case as you said it was "at least."
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 06, 2020, 06:11:09 AM
ince you love the tests, what is your response with regards to your claim of therehaving to be 10-20% test positives? Korea has done 437k tests and only 10k positives, so 2% positive. You are off by an order of magnitude at your base case as you said it was "at least."
Get back to me when you've understood "confirmed case" versus coming back positive on a test and the absence of any international conventions and standards defining and determining these. You've taken in
nothing I've been saying. In the very post you're responding to, you didn't:
QuoteThat's also why proper, sensible diagnosis and epidemiological counting of "cases" does not include "asymptomatic" carriers and requires verification of cause of illness and death, not a mere positive check mark on any antibody or PCR test.
QuoteI have been consistent that I care about whether or not people are dying of ARDS en masse in hospitals. I do not care about the tests as I have repeatedly said. S
One more time:
None of the "data" you accept, even if true, can evidence your contention of a novel and extraordinary worldwide single-cause, single-condition pandemic, never mind one actually caused by "COVID-19".
Quotewhen I say "cases" I do not mean the tests you obsess over, but rather instances (cases) of people dying of ARDS or exhibiting symptoms of Covid19 (loss of taste / smell, difficulty breathing, pneumonia shown on CT scan, low oxygen levels in blood, etc).
Which you "evidence" on the basis of a few selectively sampled and subjective second-hand reports which give no quantifiable data for "cases" as defined by you.
Enough. This is just retarded.
And if there
is a disease-causing infectious virus going around the world, then the first things to look at explaining why things have exploded in a few particular areas and not elsewhere are pre-existing co-factors which are known to affect respiratory disease, things like health and air pollution, not "lockdowns" for which there is no data they even work.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 06, 2020, 06:11:09 AM
Rather than assume the worst of someone, you could instead try to understand what the person is trying to convey.
I have been consistent that I care about whether or not people are dying of ARDS en masse in hospitals. I do not care about the tests as I have repeatedly said. So when I say "cases" I do not mean the tests you obsess over, but rather instances (cases) of people dying of ARDS or exhibiting symptoms of Covid19 (loss of taste / smell, difficulty breathing, pneumonia shown on CT scan, low oxygen levels in blood, etc).
But since you love the tests, what is your response with regards to your claim of therehaving to be 10-20% test positives? Korea has done 437k tests and only 10k positives, so 2% positive. You are off by an order of magnitude at your base case as you said it was "at least."
Davis, I have agreed with you that it should be 'anecdotal' evidence of a dangerous virus....that is why I have changed my mind. My local hospitals are no where near bursting at the seams with dying patients, only one hospital has very sick patients in ICU and even then its not full. My husband answered our Glorious Queen Leos' call for healthcare workers to apply for jobs and that they would be fastracked through, even students.....nothing from them. He did a job interview for the 'busy' hospital 11 days ago (just to add, he is very adept at interviews and always lands on the panel) and we haven't heard anything and this was a job that was posted 2 months before our shutdown. So anecdotally, nothing is happening outside of Dublin, its all crickets and tumbleweed!!
edit to add: We were told to expect the surge somewhere around the 21st march, then it was 30th march and now its going to happen in the next two weeks!!! This doomsayer stuff is just like climate change
For a quick laugh, outside my kitchen window are acres of land sloping down to a valley and in the distance at the skyline you see trees and some forestry. Husband calls to me, 'come look', I oblige and stretch my neck to see where, he says' look at the treeline, to the left, to the left, no over a bit, no just there', I'm moving my eyes to where his finger is pointing and then he says 'do you see it' I said 'what', he says 'the surge'......he got me good :)
It's Holy Week. We don't know how much longer this is going to go on, but in the meanwhile we can use the time to pray more Rosaries, read the Bible more, learn more from the lives of the Saints and Church History, and so on. God will sort this out in time. I wish the Churches remained open; but if they are not, at least we can participate via a livestream.
If someone wants, here's a stream of Palm Sunday Mass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQQvLNbQV7A
And from the same St. John Cantius Church, today's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7S08MHjOKE
Diaduit,
That is great that there seems to be no problem in your community. We may pray that is the case for many cities & towns and that it continues to be as such.
hat tip market-ticker.org
Model prediction for Tennessee: 4,000 hospitalizations. Actual 311
#EndThePanic
The coronavirus situation worldwide as of April 6th:
Nearly 13 Lakh or 1.3 Million Cases. 70,000 Deaths. There's been some hopeful news of declining new cases from Italy and Spain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLV1B5Lzy48
Catherine Austin Fitts - We are Dealing with a Spiritual War
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv1ITJr3uZw[/yt]
US becomes third reported country to cross 10,000 deaths, after Italy (16523) and Spain (13169). Many suspect there have been over 10,000 deaths in China, but the reported number in China is 3,331 deaths. France (8911) and UK (5373) appear to be the others above 5000 deaths.
Let's pray for all the departed, that before the end of their lives they either received the Sacraments well, and thus were saved; or at least made an act of faith in Our Lord Jesus, and an act of contrition, so that their souls may have been saved at least in that way.
The Divine Mercy prayer is a powerful prayer for the dying. Our Lord Jesus told St. Faustina, "Pray very much for the dying. They have the most need of My Mercy, and have it the least". Also the O My Jesus Prayer taught by Our Lady of Fatima is very powerful, and in a similar manner, if we say it throughout the day, we can pray using it too, for the dying of the day, to find Mercy from God, and be saved: "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy Mercy".
Boris Johnson, British PM, was just moved today to intensive care.
QuoteA spokesman said he was moved on the advice of his medical team and is receiving "excellent care".
Let's hope they don't kill him by sticking tubes down his windpipe and feeding him antivirals and hospital gunk.
Quote from: james03 on April 06, 2020, 08:08:04 AM
hat tip market-ticker.org
Model prediction for Tennessee: 4,000 hospitalizations. Actual 311
#EndThePanic
"Science". If this were a prediction in phsyics or engineering, those who made it would be out of a job.
He is in good spirits though and it seems it is a precautionary step
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/uknews/coronavirus-uk-live-death-toll-rises-to-more-than-5000-as-boris-johnson-tweets-hes-in-good-spirits-in-hospital/ar-BB12eKLp?ocid=spartanntp
Quote from: diaduit on April 06, 2020, 02:57:16 PM
He is in good spirits though and it seems it is a precautionary step
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/uknews/coronavirus-uk-live-death-toll-rises-to-more-than-5000-as-boris-johnson-tweets-hes-in-good-spirits-in-hospital/ar-BB12eKLp?ocid=spartanntp
That's outdated already. His condition has worsened.
"Over the course of [Monday] afternoon, the condition of the prime minister has worsened and, on the advice of his medical team, he has been moved to the intensive care unit at the hospital."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52192604 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52192604)
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on April 06, 2020, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: diaduit on April 06, 2020, 02:57:16 PM
He is in good spirits though and it seems it is a precautionary step
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/uknews/coronavirus-uk-live-death-toll-rises-to-more-than-5000-as-boris-johnson-tweets-hes-in-good-spirits-in-hospital/ar-BB12eKLp?ocid=spartanntp
That's outdated already. His condition has worsened.
"Over the course of [Monday] afternoon, the condition of the prime minister has worsened and, on the advice of his medical team, he has been moved to the intensive care unit at the hospital."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52192604 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52192604)
. I clicked that an hour ago under the thumbnail 'boris Johnson in intensive care'
USA: 365,000 cases, 10,859 deaths. Should be nearing the peak. Assuming we peak at 15-20K deaths, total death will be 30-40K. The models are way overpredicting by an order of magnitude, and I noticed they keep dropping the total death prediction.
Italy: 132,500 cases, 16,523 deaths. Death rate still dropping. Peak is behind them.
From: https://www.tldm.org/news45/priests-reveal-how-coronavirus-crisis-has-unleashed-intense-demonic-activity.htm
"April 3, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) – A malevolent force kept by my side when I was dying in a hospital room in 2009. Repeatedly, though, Fr. William Spacek chose to walk into the lengthening shadows of my neuro-ICU room. As many as three times a day, the hospital chaplain held the Eucharist above my head. He told my wife demonic forces had come into my room.
I used to see my daughter Gabby caught up in the ceiling tiles, drowning in a shallow flowing stream of water. When I attempted to save her and found that I couldn't move due to my restrained arms (tied to my bedside by nurses), I was mocked by revolting forms that had taken up hallucinogenic real estate in the undulating tiles. I vividly recall, in particular, one gyrating multi-headed demon sweeping his translucent hand toward my drowning daughter, taunting,"What of it? Gonna save her or what?"
My brain aneurysm caused intense headaches, which negated sound sleep. When I did fall asleep, demons entered. I remember one dream (I remember many) that seemed as true-to-life as the blooming tree outside my window right now. My son Sean and I were at a carnival when he began to choke on something lodged in his throat. When I tried to dislodge it, a revolting creature swung a metal pipe into the back of my head. Each time I rose from the pavement, he swung, full-force, and sent me to the ground. I watched Sean choke to death on the ground in front of me, and a chorus of demons began to roar riotous Hallelujahs.
When six months later I returned to the hospital to thank Fr. Spacek for his resolute care, I asked about the oppression in my room. "Demons were there. I could sense it right when I walked into your room," he said. "I've looked into the face of Satan. I know how he operates."
Satan's work
Satan's work does seem to have a primitive simplicity: he divides a soul from God and works to destroy it through his duplicity. And when the soul is in its most vulnerable state, the scale and ferocity of his work seems to intensify.
So when a few weeks ago because of health concerns bishops began to shutter American churches like a piecemeal extinguishing of Tenebrae candles, I began considering the Evil One, whose cackle these days, one might imagine, barks as grotesquely as the chorus on that Good Friday morning: "Crucify him!."
I started to consider the black talon of Satan's pointer finger, and where it was directing his demons now that reception of the Eucharist has mostly vanished and absolution of sin seems harder to receive than riding a bicycle to the moon.
I recalled what one of the world's leading exorcists told me a few years ago when he began to travel to American seminaries throughout the 1980s.
"I began to see the seminary as the sick womb of Holy Mother Church," said 93-year-old Monsignor John Esseff, renowned for his ability to read souls. "Priests became deformed in the belly of the Church - or if you were a well-intentioned and good seminarian, you were going to be aborted. The guys who were real, they would just be aborted."
"I saw it is demonic. It was easy to piece together - when you're anti-Eucharist, anti-Mary, and anti-prayer, you're of the demonic."
'Oppression is everywhere now'
Two weeks ago, I began to offer fasts and rosaries for those holy priests who'd survived harrowing or dry seminary experiences - because I suspected that the talon was pointed directly at them today.
St. Padre Pio and St. John Vianney recognized as they went about their Ripken-esque spiritual work of unburdening souls in the confessional, that undesired visits from demons were likely in their bedroom later that night. For years they were brutalized - until the harassing chorus knew to depart; they came to understand the war was unwinnable. As mediators and spiritual fathers in the supernatural order of grace, Pio and Vianney relied on their demonic attacks to intensify their own fasting, prayer and attentiveness to souls. So the demons, powerless, left and never returned.
But Pio and Vianney are paragons. I wondered about my priest friends. I suspected they were under attack within these lonely days.
These are priests who commit to praying their Office, making a daily Holy hour and praying a daily rosary. These priests, also I knew, embraced forms of mortification/s each day to help anchor themselves and their flock to God. Though sixteen-hour spiritual workdays have become customary, they don't resemble burnt-out Branch Davidian cult members or emaciated bands of wilderness hermits. Not one of them smells of incense or points his nose to the sky like a self-sanctified Marie Antoinette. These priests seem to be the happiest men in the world because of their untiring pursuit of holiness within themselves and their flock.
I picked up the phone yesterday and called some of these priests. I asked a single question:
"Are you under attack?"
"Yes. Really, the oppression is everywhere now," said the first priest I spoke with. He'd just driven 140 miles round-trip for the second time in a week to gather 300 cases of bread (1,200 loaves) to distribute to the poor.
"From my first Holy Hour to my videotaped Masses, to trying to reach my parishioners in on-line retreats and talks; oppressions seem to always be there. They've been very strong," he said. "It's the voice of condescension. It's become extremely tiring. It's most tiring during [virtual] talks; everything becomes slow and difficult. It's more exhausting than the Masses.
"Here's just one example of how the Evil One works - I celebrated three Masses on the Feast of the Annunciation because everything kept shutting off. The video wasn't working. This has never happened.
"The spiritual lifelines out there have been cut off, so the demons are going to attack the lifelines [priests] who still remain in the spiritual battle. It's physically and mentally exhausting because doubts creep in and you think - 'Is all this stuff I'm putting out there even landing, or is it just a waste?' You think, 'What's the point?' I'm not a priest to be in front of a camera. What's even landing to help the folks?'
"But I know Our Lady is protecting me throughout all of this. So the spiritual work is protected. That's really helped me."
I called another priest.
"A great heaviness has entered into my priesthood. This time has been the biggest test of my priesthood, and I guess of my life," said the priest, known for his cheerfulness, work ethic and devotion to Our Lady. "I do think the Evil One is hitting the priests hardest now. His number one tool is his spirit of discouragement. His M.O. is to make it seem like we're accomplishing nothing as a priest. Why pray? Why sit by the window [for outdoor confessions] when no one comes. Why make another [senseless] video on the need for prayer during COVID-19 when no one watches? It's like his voice says, 'You're worthless now as a priest - you're detached from your people, and they aren't praying or paying attention anyway'.
"But I know it's a big lie and it's the voice of the devil. And when the oppression really comes, I just keep going back to the tabernacle, where everything becomes clear. I am a mediator between God and man, My prayers, Holy Hours and spiritual work must be exercised now. The work of a mediator is a beautiful offering in this dry period because not only does it give me something to offer my parishioners - the rosary, visits to Blessed Sacrament, the reading of scripture, fasting - but everything I do now becomes essential in this spiritually dry period.
"During these dry times, in a sense, I need to become even more active, With my folks cut off, I need to be in the trenches for them now. And the Christ that lives in me puts me in this battle. This is a time for a priest to shine. He shines because he fights the oppression against himself and against the parishioners that he's become separated from."
I phoned an exorcist in Washington D.C. I asked if demonic activity had increased since the Eucharist had been held back and many church doors had been locked.
"Exorcists and those gifted individuals with insights into the spiritual realm have seen more intense demonic activity now. There has been a definite uptick," he said, "Satan's taken advantage of this crisis to meet his own ends, It seems demons have been given a free hand now."
I called a layperson active in the deliverance ministry, who wished to remain anonymous.
"The intensity of the suffering has increased. It's the spirit and voice of condescension that speaks loudly now," the individual said. "At the same time, the call to prayer is like a tsunami now. I feel like I don't need to sleep. I just want to pray throughout the night - this seems to be the same experience of the priests I've been working with.
"There is a ferocity and intensity about what they are seeing now in the spiritual realm."
When I was dying in my hospital room, at the most vulnerable point in my life, I felt the same way."
"[TLDM Editor's note: Recite the St. Michael Exorcism below for the defeat of all of the devil's works.]
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray. And do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the divine power of God, cast into hell, satan, and all evil spirits who wander throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus; have mercy on us (3 times)"
LSN article from: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/priests-reveal-how-coronavirus-crisis-has-unleashed-intense-demonic-activity
Quote"Science". If this were a prediction in phsyics or engineering, those who made it would be out of a job.
Cost of ClimateHoax model: $1 Trillion.
Cost of CoranoHoax model: $20 Trillion.
They're upping their game.
Starting to feel the economic collapse now. By the end of the month I'll be taking a 20% pay cut with my primary job. I was told "expect for people to be laid off at some point." I'll have to get in touch with some of my creditors in the next week or so. My mother doesn't know how much longer she will keep her job as they have no idea if/when/how the store will be restocked. My sister will probably be getting her hours cut or even laid off.
I was supposed to be starting a second part-time job but that's cancelled indefinitely-meaning never. I was hoping to earn a couple extra $1000s for putting into savings or helping pay some bills. All we have left are our "essential" jobs which are our only jobs.
Not only do you need to worry about your current livelihood but now you have to be worried about some asshole politicians who want to fine people in the $1000s for breaking "social distancing" protocols and going outside in general. :)
Can't go anywhere? Stay home and have as much sex as you want. Don't forget that you're allowed to leave your house to go and get an abortion. We can't be bringing more unnecessary mouths to feed in this economy, after all. Just watch porn instead. Want to go out and visit friends or family? Forget it, you can Facetime or call them instead. Want to check in on your elderly parents? Forget it, because visiting them isn't considered "essential." Who cares about all those elderly people anyway? They're just going to sit and rot in nursing homes anyway. Your loved ones dying in the hospital? Forget about being able to say "goodbye" in person; give them a phone call instead. Don't show up for the funeral.
What about those Sacraments? Select locations only, with limited hours. Don't expect Father to show up at your deathbed; he's tucked away somewhere underground. And maybe somewhere beneath your feet you'll hear a faint voice laughing at you while he says "Night night, baby!"
Want to find a husband or a wife? Don't bother, probably at home watching porn. Or try online dating...just what we need, more screen time and "me time." No Holy matrimonies for now. And even then, you're not allowed to invite more than 3 people and you all have to be standing at least 6 feet apart. Blow kisses instead, just make sure you're wearing face masks.
A Catholic I know texted me as part of a group and said "Isn't it so wonderful our religious leaders are doing their best to prepare us to see the gates of Heaven at this time?" Yeah right.
QuoteWant to go out and visit friends or family? Forget it, you can Facetime or call them instead.
What is stopping you visiting friends and family? I did, last weekend. I rode 60 miles on a bike to the seaside to visit a relative. Then 60 miles back, 2 days later.
Live free or die. I am not a number, I am a free man.
It was one of the most relaxing Saturday afternoons I can remember. Blazing sunshine, sea air, and Nat King Cole blasting away on the outdoor speakers, and 2 glasses of Pimms and Lemonade to finish it off.
Absolutely glorious.
Quote from: clau clau on April 06, 2020, 06:27:03 PM
QuoteWant to go out and visit friends or family? Forget it, you can Facetime or call them instead.
What is stopping you visiting friends and family? I did, last weekend. I rode 60 miles on a bike to the seaside to visit a relative. Then 60 miles back, 2 days later.
Live free or die. I am not a number, I am a free man.
The second half of my post was meant to be taken as sarcasm.
However, certain family members are trying everything else in their power to make sure I don't visit a very good friend of mine who lives alone (and isn't on the "at risk" list). "You see him everyday at work, you don't need to visit him outside of work right now." Don't even go outside and talk to anyone, I'm told. Just stay inside and don't bother jogging either.
Even higher ups at work are urging employees to "stay inside." Can't do that when I have to show up for work.
Don't look now ... I seriously hope you can poke a bunch of holes in this one Kreuzritter.
Coronavirus might spread much farther than 6 feet in the air. CDC says wear a mask in public.
https://www.shreveporttimes.com/in-depth/news/2020/04/03/coronavirus-protection-how-masks-might-stop-spread-through-coughs/5086553002/
Want to make some money? Start making masks and selling them. Go to Hobby Lobby to find out how. People will probably pay a lot to get a hold of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmUxSlOoUE
Quote from: clau clau on April 06, 2020, 06:27:03 PM
QuoteWant to go out and visit friends or family? Forget it, you can Facetime or call them instead.
What is stopping you visiting friends and family? I did, last weekend. I rode 60 miles on a bike to the seaside to visit a relative. Then 60 miles back, 2 days later.
Live free or die. I am not a number, I am a free man.
It was one of the most relaxing Saturday afternoons I can remember. Blazing sunshine, sea air, and Nat King Cole blasting away on the outdoor speakers, and 2 glasses of Pimms and Lemonade to finish it off.
Absolutely glorious.
highly recommend breaking the protocol, you get a real rush of endorphins. I went to receive the Sacraments last Saturday, kids and I rehearsed our stories for the Guards if we get to a checkpoint. Had such a laugh.
Lots of people in town today most just ambling around nothing to do with work. Warm weather is going to break the back of this lockdown in the UK. Working classes and underclass don't give a tinker's cus about it. Once people see others ignore the lockdown it's over. Middle classes will moan for 3 days then come out themselves. Noticeably higher proportion of private cars on the motorway too. I have been counting vehicles everyday. We are going out to Chilham, Kent, for a walk now.
If there ever is a serious virus with over a 10% kill rate, in the next 30 years, people globally will remember this overreaction and assume the government have overreacted again.
The catholic youtube, Matt Fradd, was tested negative for the virus and his wife, who happened to have the same symptons at the same time, was also tested negative.
Quote from: diaduit on April 07, 2020, 02:56:54 AM
I went to receive the Sacraments last Saturday, kids and I rehearsed our stories for the Guards if we get to a checkpoint. Had such a laugh.
Rebels without a cough.
Quote from: Greg on April 07, 2020, 07:37:17 AM
Lots of people in town today most just ambling around nothing to do with work. Warm weather is going to break the back of this lockdown in the UK. Working classes and underclass don't give a tinker's cus about it. Once people see others ignore the lockdown it's over.
The NWO reminds me of an episode of Pinky and the Brain. An incredibly complex and masterful plan for world domination, executed flawlessly, only to be defeated by some 90 iq chavs hitting the beach.
Quote from: james03 on April 06, 2020, 06:00:26 PM
The models are way overpredicting by an order of magnitude, and I noticed they keep dropping the total death prediction.
For example:
If you live in the U.S. check out, in the NYT charts, death rates. So,
3.6 deaths per 100,000 people in the U.S. Compare that to deaths from other diseases per 100K, and ask yourself why this is "a national emergency, "a war," and
a valid reason to destroy the economy of the First World. Colds and flus are annual pandemics, globally.
Also, ask yourself why, with such figures, Fauci is telling the American people that "even after" (I told everybody so, by the way) the elusive moment of relaxation reaches us, "life will never be allowed to be the same again in the U.S.; we will never be returned to normal."
May I ask why such a person is not arrested and strapped to a table for out of control megalomania?
More stats:
I live the next county over from one of the earliest reputed "hot spots." Talk about hyperbole. Since the first moment the virus appeared in this country, my so-called "hot spot" has experienced
exactly one death per 100,000 people in our entire state. In my supposedly "hot spot" county, we have experienced
less than one death per 100K people.
In the neighboring supposedly REALLY "hot spot" county that made the national news, there have been exactly
two deaths per 100K people. This is an emergency?
Some media organization needs to start peeling off the Emperor's Not-New Clothes! What are you waiting for?
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 51: State by State Projections; Ultrasound to Diagnose COVID19 Pneumonia
This video includes a discussion of recent pandemic trends and a tool from the University of Washington to assess the possible peak in each state in the United States. Dr. Seheult introduces emergency medicine physician Dr. Jacquet to discuss the utility and accuracy of portable, point of care ultrasound (POCUS) in the diagnosis and monitoring of COVID-19 pneumonia.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7MufS6dnJw[/yt]
I grabbed this from an article which was discussing problem with death reporting due to death certificate lag. Ignore that. Check out the deaths during the 2017 flu season:
(https://i1.wp.com/www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/US-CDC-death-data-thru-Week-10-2020-01.jpg)
Looks like 40,000 extra deaths.
In the 3rd week of lockdown we leave King Canute, Napoleon and Cleopatra behind and our homeschool turns to the expansion of gases and effects on temperature, volume and pressure. We've launched Chinese lanterns and understood that warm air is less dense than cold and that the velocity of the air affects pressure (Bernoulli's Principle). Soon we will send an old iPhone up to 100,000 feet on a weather balloon, once I can find a business open and still selling helium (or I'll make some hydrogen).
Children love blowing things up and the best way to learn & love science is to blow stuff up. After 90 mins this morning of making dry ice with fire extinguishers and evaporating water in hot pans we blew up an 3/4 empty can of air-freshener and then a 3/4 empty lighter refill gas aerosol.
Top safety tip, the embers can go everywhere, so make sure nothing in 10 feet of your fire will easily burn. Don't use a cast iron or clay fire holder as the shock wave can fracture it. Avoid burning wood with nails in. These can act like red hot flying metal shrapnel and travel 30 feet depending on what you explode. Don't cover the can, just leave it on top of the hot embers, and it take 10 to 20 seconds to explode. If it does not explode in 2 mins then it won't and you can flick it out with a stick. The tops and bottoms of the cans blow off first so make sure these are not pointed towards the audience.
https://youtu.be/sIui98SbB0Y
Quote from: Graham on April 07, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: Greg on April 07, 2020, 07:37:17 AM
Lots of people in town today most just ambling around nothing to do with work. Warm weather is going to break the back of this lockdown in the UK. Working classes and underclass don't give a tinker's cus about it. Once people see others ignore the lockdown it's over.
The NWO reminds me of an episode of Pinky and the Brain. An incredibly complex and masterful plan for world domination, executed flawlessly, only to be defeated by some 90 iq chavs hitting the beach.
Maybe the Holy Spirit inspired the cartoonists.
Quote from: james03 on April 07, 2020, 02:13:10 PM
I grabbed this from an article which was discussing problem with death reporting due to death certificate lag.
What's the red line?
Expected. Looks like it increases yearly due to aging/population. That's my guess.
Quote from: james03 on April 07, 2020, 02:13:10 PM
I grabbed this from an article which was discussing problem with death reporting due to death certificate lag. Check out the deaths during the 2017 flu season:
This is a killer chart. The numbers for this year are astonishing. Also, this is the sort of "one-hit one-kill" image that can change people's minds.
I wonder, could there be some cause-and-effect between the dramatically LOWER death numbers in January and today's coronavirus hysteria? Could the very mild flu season have triggered some kind of government reaction?
(https://i1.wp.com/www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/US-CDC-death-data-thru-Week-10-2020-01.jpg)
I sized it to fit onto the page.
QuoteI wonder, could there be some cause-and-effect between the dramatically LOWER death numbers in January and today's coronavirus hysteria?
The theory is that since this was a mild flu season, there were more sickly people around with commorbidities for COVID 19 to kill. Looking at all the data, COVID is not very lethal. And there's another theory that the reason it is not particularly lethal is because it was being developed as a vaccine, which viruses are created to not kill you, but only trigger an immune response.
USA 396,000 cases, 12,790 dead. We are very near to the peak now. Total dead should be around 30-40,000 when the end is reached. Added to a mild flu season, we should come in under the 2017/2018 flu season.
ITALY: 135,600 cases, 17,127 dead. Italy is definitely past the peak. We'll be at 100 deaths per day by next week.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/company-claims-hse-has-not-paid-up-€74m-for-ventilators/ar-BB12ijXX?ocid=spartanntp
My interpretation, HSE over played the numbers and sent in a huge order for ventilators, realised the surge wasn't happening and tried to dodge the original order.....hence the company suing for it to fulfil its obligation.
The general populace will see it as the HSE trying to save the taxpayer monies and the lockdown is working when really they are trying to stiff a home grown company.
Quote from: james03 on April 07, 2020, 06:06:36 PM
USA 396,000 cases, 12,790 dead. We are very near to the peak now. Total dead should be around 30-40,000 when the end is reached. Added to a mild flu season, we should come in under the 2017/2018 flu season.
ITALY: 135,600 cases, 17,127 dead. Italy is definitely past the peak. We'll be at 100 deaths per day by next week.
So it's just the flu then.
Quote from: diaduit on April 08, 2020, 03:49:52 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/company-claims-hse-has-not-paid-up-€74m-for-ventilators/ar-BB12ijXX?ocid=spartanntp
My interpretation, HSE over played the numbers and sent in a huge order for ventilators, realised the surge wasn't happening and tried to dodge the original order.....hence the company suing for it to fulfil its obligation.
The general populace will see it as the HSE trying to save the taxpayer monies and the lockdown is working when really they are trying to stiff a home grown company.
Overplaying the numbers seems to happen a lot.
Last Friday (3rd), London's emergency coronavirus hospital was still empty despite predictions that it would be overflowing by then. The new 4,000-bed Nightingale emergency hospital at the Excel Centre in London was opened by Prince Charles via videolink.
What's more, London's hospital ICUs were only three quarters full last Friday. It seems that the rush of coronavirus casualties hasn't happened.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/nightingale-emergency-coronavirus-hospital-london
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
Told Ya. :violin:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/more-people-died-suicide-last-week-tennessee-covid-19
Quote from: Maximilian on April 07, 2020, 04:03:38 PM
(https://i1.wp.com/www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/US-CDC-death-data-thru-Week-10-2020-01.jpg)
I sized it to fit onto the page.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F13700000%2FKABOOM-expositions-13710481-800-600.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Quote from: james03 on April 07, 2020, 06:06:36 PM
USA 396,000 cases, 12,790 dead. We are very near to the peak now. Total dead should be around 30-40,000 when the end is reached. Added to a mild flu season, we should come in under the 2017/2018 flu season.
ITALY: 135,600 cases, 17,127 dead. Italy is definitely past the peak. We'll be at 100 deaths per day by next week.
What are the chances this is a false peak due to many people distancing themselves? If things go back to normal, what is the likelihood that the US will start to spike again?
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 08, 2020, 04:12:42 AM
Quote from: james03 on April 07, 2020, 06:06:36 PM
USA 396,000 cases, 12,790 dead. We are very near to the peak now. Total dead should be around 30-40,000 when the end is reached. Added to a mild flu season, we should come in under the 2017/2018 flu season.
ITALY: 135,600 cases, 17,127 dead. Italy is definitely past the peak. We'll be at 100 deaths per day by next week.
So it's just the flu then.
If "flu" or other deaths drop, and "COVID-19" deaths rise, so that we still get a total number of deaths well within in the normal range, even lower than some recent years, WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM?!?
Cases: 1.45 Million. Deaths: 83,500. Death Rate: About 5.75%. Death Rate has been steadily increasing and will likely soon cross 6%. At current rates, it is about 57.5X verse than the death rate from the flu, which was estimated at 0.1%
We've hardly been tracking 1 month, and already the deaths in Italy (17,198) are much worse than pneumonia for an entire year (9100) or flu for an entire season (17000). Those dead in the US (12,935) are over 4 times the number killed on 9/11.
Unfortunately, after US, Spain (14,555) and Italy, we now have a fourth country, France (10,328) has crossed 10,000 deaths. Likewise unfortunately, worldwide, it seems we will be over 100,000 deaths in a few days. Let's continue to pray for all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLV1B5Lzy48
QuoteSo it's just the flu then.
No, it appears to be less lethal. HOWEVER, you are going to get a second peak in the death rate, as we already had our flu peak a few months ago. BUT, you have to integrate the total deaths between the red curve and the actual. We'll probably be above average in total, but below 2017/2018.
QuoteWhat are the chances this is a false peak due to many people distancing themselves? If things go back to normal, what is the likelihood that the US will start to spike again?
Assuming the official scenario:
1. The virus is mainly transmitted by person-to-person airborne transmittal,
2. Hospitals aren't the main vector,
3. Social distancing actually works,
Then,
When they lift the restrictions, you'll get the same apocalyptic scenario with bodies in the street, because we'll go right back to exponential growth.
However, the data coming in shows:
1. Contact is an important way to transmit, if not the most important one.
2. Air travel is still occurring
3. NYC subways are still running,
4. Lethality for an average person is less than 1%.,
it is likely that we are approaching immunity. Please tell me how we don't have a massive death toll in NYC when $8/hr. hospital workers who clean bed pans are getting on subways twice per day.
Quote from: Xavier on April 08, 2020, 07:15:49 AM
Cases: 1.45 Million. Deaths: 83,500. Death Rate: About 5.75%. Death Rate has been steadily increasing and will likely soon cross 6%. At current rates, it is about 57.5X verse than the death rate from the flu, which was estimated at 0.1%
We've hardly been tracking 1 month, and already the deaths in Italy (17,198) are much worse than pneumonia for an entire year (9100) or flu for an entire season (17000). Those dead in the US (12,935) are over 4 times the number killed on 9/11.
Unfortunately, after US, Spain (14,555) and Italy, we now have a fourth country, France (10,328) has crossed 10,000 deaths. Likewise unfortunately, worldwide, it seems we will be over 100,000 deaths in a few days. Let's continue to pray for all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLV1B5Lzy48
These figures are utterly meaningless.
Quote from: clau clau on March 24, 2020, 12:34:01 PM
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Exhibit A.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238629
Exhibit B.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-52205159/coronavirus-the-italians-struggling-to-feed-their-families
Found some good data:
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html (https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html)
Note we are seeing the double spike, however we are well below 2017/2018 peak. This data is combined pneumonia and influenza deaths as a percent of total deaths. Note that this will be conservative (read high) because total deaths should drop due to lower auto fatalities, which kill a lot of people. Actually this might have a big impact now that I'm thinking about it.
Conclusion so far: COVID + Flu this year is less severe than 2017/2018.
I checked out the raw data. As expected, the percent graph is B.S. because total deaths from other causes must have dropped.
Week 11 pneumonia deaths (2019): 3979.
Week 11 pneumonia deaths (2020): 3203
Week 12 pneumonia deaths (2019): 3,795
Week 12 pneumonia deaths (2020): 2,930 (with 84% reporting). Rough guess, they'll come in at around 3,300.
If you are buds with a congressman, ask him why the CDC is reporting "percent of total deaths" on their graph instead of total deaths.
#EndThePanic
Next up, data dump on NY.
NY:
Week 11 and 12 pneumonia death.
2020: 168, 196
2019: 184, 195
Worst week in my data: 243
I expect week 13 and 14 to spike up, but this is not zombie apocalypse. Note that focusing on pneumonia deaths only, seems valid, because total influenza death for example 2020 week 12 was 1,984. I'm trying to compare apples to apples, and focusing in on pneumonia deaths should tell us what we need to know.
As suspected, total deaths week 12:
2020: 47,000
2019: 57,000
So using percent deaths due to pneumonia + influenza is completely invalid. I imagine auto deaths and work place accidents make up a huge chunk of the 10,000 death delta.
More evidence that we need to #EndThePanic
Quote from: james03 on April 08, 2020, 09:14:30 AM
Found some good data:
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html (https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html)
Note we are seeing the double spike, however we are well below 2017/2018 peak. This data is combined pneumonia and influenza deaths as a percent of total deaths. Note that this will be conservative (read high) because total deaths should drop due to lower auto fatalities, which kill a lot of people. Actually this might have a big impact now that I'm thinking about it.
Conclusion so far: COVID + Flu this year is less severe than 2017/2018.
Are corona deaths folded into the pneumonia/flu death data?
Does anyone remember the great flu epidemic of 2017/18?
No? Surely you do.
Here's an article about it from Time magazine.
Quote
Hospitals Overwhelmed by Flu Patients Are Treating Them in Tents
By Amanda MacMillan
January 18, 2018
The 2017-2018 influenza epidemic is sending people to hospitals and urgent-care centers in every state, and medical centers are responding with extraordinary measures: asking staff to work overtime, setting up triage tents, restricting friends and family visits and canceling elective surgeries, to name a few.
"We are pretty much at capacity, and the volume is certainly different from previous flu seasons," says Dr. Alfred Tallia, professor and chair of family medicine at the Robert Wood Johnson Medical Center in New Brunswick, New Jersey. "I've been in practice for 30 years, and it's been a good 15 or 20 years since I've seen a flu-related illness scenario like we've had this year."
https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patients/
Top tip.
If you have any home exercise equipment and are willing to deliver it in a 30 mile radius of your home put it on eBay. People are paying stupid money for it currently
I just sold a TS01 running machine with incline I paid 155 pounds for in 2017 for 480 pounds including delivering it 8 miles away. Last month I sold an erg for 500 quid but that was before lockdown.
Punch bags, weights, dumbells, exercise balls, bikes, sell it now and buy it back later when lockdown is over and there is a glut of it being sold and it will be much cheaper.
Paranoid middle classes all competing on line for crap to keep them entertained. Good time to sell DVDs, video games, laptops, PCs, homescooling books and other stuff as people cannot get it from closed stores.
Good time to buy cars.
Quote from: Greg on April 08, 2020, 11:16:08 AM
Good time to buy cars.
And I want to sell my car.. ::)
There were 34,000 deaths a week ago. There are 87,500 deaths now. At that rate, it'll be very bad if this continues for another 4 weeks or so, let alone longer. The recent data suggests the pace of deaths worldwide continues to increase exponentially with the greatest increases in the most recent days. Of course that won't be the same in every place; but overall it is so. At over 50,000 a week, we'll be at around 300,000 a month from now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVIGhz3uwuQ
•47 jobless workers for every confirmed coronavirus case;
•320 jobless for every hospitalization; and
•2,112 jobless for every coronavirus death.
Moreover, it virtually certain that cumulative initial claims will hit 20 million before the end of April, thereby doubling the above ratios. That is to say, do they really want 100 jobless workers for every case of a bad winter flu?
Well, yes, it seems that our establishment betters can't get rabid enough urging on a total shutdown of the US economy.
And then there is the beauty of doubling of the suicide rate in the USA.
Satan plays us like a fiddle.
These types of things should be expected with unrestricted abortion (Hello New York), sodomite rights, sodomite marriage, tranny rights, etc. A nation that turns its back on God should expect nothing less than a very good thrashing.
Quote from: Xavier on April 08, 2020, 11:36:57 AM
There were 34,000 deaths a week ago. There are 87,500 deaths now. At that rate, it'll be very bad if this continues for another 4 weeks or so, let alone longer. The recent data suggests the pace of deaths worldwide continues to increase exponentially with the greatest increases in the most recent days. Of course that won't be the same in every place; but overall it is so. At over 50,000 a week, we'll be at around 300,000 a month from now.
And the bolded is exactly the point.
Again, if you are a world traveler, and particularly if your departure and destination are quite active right now, you have a concern. You might consider -- if you have the option not to travel, or to postpone it -- using your common sense. And you might consider bringing along a hazmat suit and related PPE. And hopefully your affairs are in order, including your health directives.
If you are a major figure in the WHO, the worldwide numbers concern you.
But I'll bet nobody on this forum is one of those two categories. For everybody else, and for the vast majority of Americans following the
Catastrophe
News
Network, your local situation is what you should be attuned to. Notice I didn't say "terrified of" but attuned to.
The MSM wants you to believe that you have no control. In the mega sense, correct, we have no control. But in the micro sense, we do have control. It's just that the MSM has reduced us all to little children listening to bedtime stories about invisible, omnipresent monsters against whom there is no protection.
Example:
My apartment owner is a healthcare worker. So is my apartment manager. Owner told manager, "Protect yourself." Manager -- a devil-may-care type of optimist -- refused to exercise prudent caution in his RN job (personal assistant). Guess which one of the two is the only member of that pair in the ICU at our local hospital right now, short of breath, and receiving the clinical trial remsdeslivir.
I have never liked my personal space invaded, long before Covid. Never liked it at grocery stores and have engineered all kinds of ways to keep the person behind me as distant from me as is possible, without being overtly rude. But I'm obviously even more vigilant now and exercise even more refined distancing and self-protection. (Currently, I also wear surgical gloves.)
I plan any necessary outings carefully to avoid any peak hours and more populated areas. (I hated crowds before Covid, so this is not a sacrifice for me.) The idea that I am "just as much at risk as anybody else" is factually not true. Mathematically, risk includes many factors, and I have just demonstrated ways in which I reduce my own risk of both exposure and contraction.
As James just alluded to, people who choose to or must take public transportation are by definition more at risk to both exposure and contraction. I drive, alone. And as he also alluded to fairly graphically, personal behavior, particularly as regards hygiene, is a huge risk factor. I don't think I need to add to the graphic aspects but merely to remind everybody who might be frightened of imaginary monsters, half of men do not wash their hands after using the toilet. That's not an estimate; it's from recent data, which was a study of Covid risk factors for men -- and that additional data point came up.
Incidentally, I may have been an early Covid patient myself, with very mild symptoms. For those of us with seasonal allergies that typically begin in February (especially if we do not live in snow country), it's easy to miss mild viruses because we're so symptomatic in our allergic reactions. In February I had the eye pain thing. I had never experienced anything like that before; it wasn't a vision problem or allergy related. I almost thought I should call an ophthamologist but decided to wait it out a few days. (At that time, eye pain had not surfaced as an outlier sign; it has now come to light in retrospect.) As I recall, it was accompanied by body aches and brief fatigue.
Anyway, antibody tests will be ready soon, and I intend to get one to confirm whether I've had my case.
Xavier, deaths are a lagging indicator. They will increase for a while after the case growth rate slows.
Latest from CDC:
Peak death rate this Sunday. (A reasonable call).
Total deaths 60,000 (a further 25% reduction).
Note if we agree with their peak date, then double the deaths on that date to get total. I predicted 32K by next Sunday, so maybe 60K is reasonable. However there's a chance we might have already peaked in which case it will be lower.
Kind of sad that a slap-dash throw together curve fit model destroyed their model which probably cost millions.
Quote from: Miriam_M on April 08, 2020, 12:16:21 PM
Quote from: Xavier on April 08, 2020, 11:36:57 AM
There were 34,000 deaths a week ago. There are 87,500 deaths now. At that rate, it'll be very bad if this continues for another 4 weeks or so, let alone longer. The recent data suggests the pace of deaths worldwide continues to increase exponentially with the greatest increases in the most recent days. Of course that won't be the same in every place; but overall it is so. At over 50,000 a week, we'll be at around 300,000 a month from now.
And the bolded is exactly the point.
Again, if you are a world traveler, and particularly if your departure and destination are quite active right now, you have a concern. You might consider -- if you have the option not to travel, or to postpone it -- using your common sense. And you might consider bringing along a hazmat suit and related PPE. And hopefully your affairs are in order, including your health directives.
If you are a major figure in the WHO, the worldwide numbers concern you.
But I'll bet nobody on this forum is one of those two categories. For everybody else, and for the vast majority of Americans following the Catastrophe News Network, your local situation is what you should be attuned to. Notice I didn't say "terrified of" but attuned to.
The MSM wants you to believe that you have no control. In the mega sense, correct, we have no control. But in the micro sense, we do have control. It's just that the MSM has reduced us all to little children listening to bedtime stories about invisible, omnipresent monsters against whom there is no protection.
Example:
My apartment owner is a healthcare worker. So is my apartment manager. Owner told manager, "Protect yourself." Manager -- a devil-may-care type of optimist -- refused to exercise prudent caution in his RN job (personal assistant). Guess which one of the two is the only member of that pair in the ICU at our local hospital right now, short of breath, and receiving the clinical trial remsdeslivir.
Anyway, antibody tests will be ready soon, and I intend to get one to confirm whether I've had my case.
I assume the apartment owner? :)
How do you organise an antibody test? I am convinced I had it at Christmas.
Quote from: diaduit on April 08, 2020, 12:41:26 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on April 08, 2020, 12:16:21 PM
Quote from: Xavier on April 08, 2020, 11:36:57 AM
There were 34,000 deaths a week ago. There are 87,500 deaths now. At that rate, it'll be very bad if this continues for another 4 weeks or so, let alone longer. The recent data suggests the pace of deaths worldwide continues to increase exponentially with the greatest increases in the most recent days. Of course that won't be the same in every place; but overall it is so. At over 50,000 a week, we'll be at around 300,000 a month from now.
And the bolded is exactly the point.
Again, if you are a world traveler, and particularly if your departure and destination are quite active right now, you have a concern. You might consider -- if you have the option not to travel, or to postpone it -- using your common sense. And you might consider bringing along a hazmat suit and related PPE. And hopefully your affairs are in order, including your health directives.
If you are a major figure in the WHO, the worldwide numbers concern you.
But I'll bet nobody on this forum is one of those two categories. For everybody else, and for the vast majority of Americans following the Catastrophe News Network, your local situation is what you should be attuned to. Notice I didn't say "terrified of" but attuned to.
The MSM wants you to believe that you have no control. In the mega sense, correct, we have no control. But in the micro sense, we do have control. It's just that the MSM has reduced us all to little children listening to bedtime stories about invisible, omnipresent monsters against whom there is no protection.
Example:
My apartment owner is a healthcare worker. So is my apartment manager. Owner told manager, "Protect yourself." Manager -- a devil-may-care type of optimist -- refused to exercise prudent caution in his RN job (personal assistant). Guess which one of the two is the only member of that pair in the ICU at our local hospital right now, short of breath, and receiving the clinical trial remsdeslivir.
Anyway, antibody tests will be ready soon, and I intend to get one to confirm whether I've had my case.
I assume the apartment owner? :)
How do you organise an antibody test? I am convinced I had it at Christmas.
Hello, diadut. I hope I didn't confuse, but maybe I did. Apartment owner is the careful one who urged the manager to protect himself; manager blew off the advice and is the one in the ICU. Owner and I are monitoring the manager's condition. Manager has texted me from the ICU and I've told him to concentrate on himself, not me, so I've asked the owner to keep me updated, instead.
Point I was trying to make about that is this: What the owner said to me is, "I will not be getting sick" -- illustrating my point about one's degree of self-mastery being an important component in the mathematical factor of risk. (And yet he has the same occupation and similar exposure conditions that the hospitalized one has had.)
And I also will not be getting sick (most likely), even if I haven't yet had Covid, although I think it's probable that I have.
The U.S. government and our MSM wants the world, but especially our country, to believe individuals are powerless victims unless virtually 100% of the population stops operating like human beings. And that's just a load of you-know-what. We will die sooner of starvation, in that case, than of any virus.
Example: Birx cryptically informed the country yesterday that no one should go to grocery stores for two full weeks. No explanation. Um, newsflash, Dr. Birx: Maybe you should read the headlines instead of creating false headlines/fake news. I will post below two pieces of information regarding incubator locations largely affecting statistics in New York and Chicago.
My state is in the process of making antibody tests available, but we don't yet know when.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-live-updates.html#link-41587413
A jail in Chicago is now the largest-known source of U.S. infections
The Cook County jail in Chicago, a sprawling facility that is among the largest jails in the nation, has emerged as the largest-known source of U.S. coronavirus infections, according to data compiled by The Times.
At least 387 cases can be linked to the jail — more than have been connected to the U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt, a nursing home in Kirkland, Wash., or the cluster of cases centered on New Rochelle, N.Y.
As of Tuesday, the Cook County Sheriff's Office, which operates the jail, said 272 inmates and 115 staff members had tested positive. But because the vast majority of the jail's 5,000 inmates have not been tested, corrections officers have said the numbers are likely far higher. In late March, the jail had just two diagnoses.
The outbreak appears to confirm the concerns of many health officials, who warned that America's overcrowded and unsanitary jails and prisons could be a major source of spread. Those warnings prompted authorities across the country to release thousands of inmates to try to slow the infection, save lives and preserve medical resources.
Still, hundreds of diagnoses have been confirmed at local, state and federal correctional facilities — almost certainly an undercount, given a lack of testing and the virus's rapid spread — leading to hunger strikes in immigrant detention centers and demands for more protection from prison employee unions.
In Cook County, officials released hundreds of inmates early — all of whom had been convicted of nonviolent crimes like drug possession and disorderly conduct. Judges are continuing to examine the cases of each inmate to determine if bonds can be lowered for certain people. That would allow dozens, perhaps hundreds, more people to be released, officials say.
The sheriff, Thomas J. Dart, has set up a quarantine area for those who have tested positive and another to monitor those showing symptoms. The most serious patients are being taken to a hospital.
But inmates and corrections officers have complained that the jail's safety measures are inadequate. A protest that included family members of inmates was held outside the jail on Tuesday. Advocates and family members have also filed a federal lawsuit seeking the early release of older inmates and those who have chronic medical conditions like respiratory illnesses and diabetes, which may make them particularly vulnerable.
How Coronavirus at Rikers Puts All of N.Y.C. at Risk
Officials have promised a mass release of inmates from city jails to slow the spread of coronavirus. Critics say the government isn't moving fast enough.
TV announcers: "An inmate who tested positive for Covid-19 died yesterday at Bellevue Hospital." "Rikers is one of the largest correctional facilities in the world, and right now, the infection rate there is seven times that of New York City." "Is our prison system equipped to handle an outbreak?" "When the coronavirus seeped into the jails, public officials, public advocates all rushed to address the situation." "We will continue to reduce our jail population." "We're releasing people who are in jails because they violated parole." When the virus was first identified in New York, there were 5,400 inmates in city jails. To combat the spread of the virus, the Board of Correction recommended the release of 2,000 inmates. Parole violators, people over 50, those medically at risk and inmates serving short sentences. But two weeks later, government officials have released just half. "Prisons, jails, are acting as incubators for the virus." "Think about the jails as the world's worst cruise ship." "If we get a real situation here, and this thing starts to spread, it's going to spread like wildfire, and New York is going to have a problem on their hands." Thousands of employees travel through the city's jails every day, forming a human lifeline to the city. Inmates also come and go. "So it's particularly urgent to get this under control because it's not just about who is in the jails right now, it's really about the city." This is Kenneth Albritton. He was being held on Rikers as Covid-19 spread through the city. "It's scary in there, that's what I would tell you. When I was in there, you had guys making their own masks with their shirts. They didn't want to breathe in the air with the same people that's in the dorm with them." ...you have 50 guys that's in a sleeping area. It's impossible to tell us to practice social distancing there when they're being stacked on top of each other." ...."Not much has been considered in terms of what happens to inmates after their release, and once they're back in the communities and in their homes."
In New York City, jails like Rikers Island are also seeing infection rates grow exponentially. City and state officials have promised the mass release of inmates to stop the spread. But many say they are not moving quickly enough, putting inmates, staff and the city at risk.
Quote from: diaduit on April 08, 2020, 12:41:26 PM
How do you organise an antibody test? I am convinced I had it at Christmas.
An antibody test for
what?
From what I can see, and any biochemist is free to correct me, these tests work by adding antibodies derived from a blood sample to an antigen sample and seeing if the antibodies bind to the antigen, that is testing for a reaction with some standardised reagent they've derived from "COVID-19" (beats me how they think they've determined this when they can't purify the virus from a host). These reactions are probabilistic, that is this is not some kind of either-or lock-and-key phenomenon, and in the absence of control tests of the antibodies with other antigens, specifically other forms of "coronavirus", which could well bind to the same antibodies, I'm not sure how they imagine they know that a "positive" result is specific to COVID-19.
USA: 427,000 cases. 14,655 dead. USA deaths dropped some. Too early to confirm, but the USA may have peaked. If so, total deaths will be below 30,000.
Italy: 139,000 cases. 17,669 dead. Death rate continues to drop.
Week 14 Euro Momo stats show an undeniable late season surge of all-cause deaths.
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.euromomo.eu%2Foutputs%2Fimages%2FPooled-number.png&hash=684e6001b4b315059a4ba9d434e3e4345a6f0dcb)
Meanwhile, on the positive side, the case growth rate continues to slow down.
(https://i0.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/clip_image002-3.jpg?resize=605%2C342&ssl=1)
https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/04/09/first-reading-of-tenebrae-from-last-night-if-this-doesnt-get-ones-attention-absolutely-nothing-will/
Lam 1:1-5
1 Aleph. How doth the city sit solitary that was full of people! how is the mistress of the Gentiles become as a widow: the princes of provinces made tributary!
Reads like a description of New York City or any major world capital.
If you know London like I do then this would normally be swarming with people (mostly tourists).
Pandemic
(https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/12/26/11/dsc-2089.jpg)
Normal
(https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/11/24/16/aslef.jpg?w968)
Quote from: clau clau on April 09, 2020, 11:08:07 AM
https://www.barnhardt.biz/2020/04/09/first-reading-of-tenebrae-from-last-night-if-this-doesnt-get-ones-attention-absolutely-nothing-will/
Lam 1:1-5
1 Aleph. How doth the city sit solitary that was full of people! how is the mistress of the Gentiles become as a widow: the princes of provinces made tributary!
Reads like a description of New York City or any major world capital.
If you know London like I do then this would normally be swarming with people (mostly tourists).
Pandemic
(https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/12/26/11/dsc-2089.jpg)
Normal
(https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/11/24/16/aslef.jpg?w968)
I'll be honest.... pandemic London looks far more enticing to visit than normal ;D.
Anecdotally, the state park my kids and I frequent all year round, out here in the country, is usually empty and we have it all to our selves, since we always opt to go on weekdays. It's currently still open, with the rule that people don't gather in groups and keep their distance from other park guests. I've been taking the kids every week to go hike or play in the river. My husband and I took them one day last week to walk the 5- mile loop trail. We saw more cars and guests there that day than we ever have! It's strange....empty cities and full country-sides. I'll be glad when people can go back to the city and leave ist country folks to our peace and quiet again :P
Quote from: MundaCorMeum on April 09, 2020, 12:33:22 PM
I'll be glad when people can go back to the city and leave ist country folks to our peace and quiet again :P
Maybe they won't.
London is beautifully silent during the lockdown. Lots of people left just before the lockdown was enforced, the flights have all but stopped, as have the trains and most of the traffic. At night the city seems as if it's hardly breathing.
Every day feels like a bank holiday. And there are no tourists, or people from the country on a shopping trip who amble along getting in the way.
USA: 467,000 cases, 16,636 dead. Not seeing an acceleration in the death rate, which means we're close if not at the peak. We'll know by this weekend.
Italy: 144,000 cases, 18,279 dead. We should pass Italy by Saturday.
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 52: Ivermectin Treatment; Does COVID-19 Attack Hemoglobin?
Dr. Seheult illustrates the possible mechanism of the medication Ivermectin for a potential treatment for COVID-19 and discusses recent articles about the possible impact of coronavirus on hemoglobin. Interesting projections and data from the USA, Nordic Countries, and New Zealand is also discussed.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc6VV7ue4cE[/yt]
Just talked to a genetic specialist who says covid causes antiphospholipid syndrome by changing genetic expression. It also has to do with 5G.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on April 09, 2020, 06:47:54 PM
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 52: Ivermectin Treatment; Does COVID-19 Attack Hemoglobin?
Dr. Seheult illustrates the possible mechanism of the medication Ivermectin for a potential treatment for COVID-19 and discusses recent articles about the possible impact of coronavirus on hemoglobin. Interesting projections and data from the USA, Nordic Countries, and New Zealand is also discussed.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc6VV7ue4cE[/yt]
No. Cloroquine and hydroxychloroquine do.
Coronavirus: Tiger at Bronx Zoo tests positive for Covid-19
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52177586 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52177586)
At htis point you have to be suffering from some kind of derangement to believe COVID-19 tests work and that its "genome" is anything but a construct from genetic material of unknown origin.
https://chicagocitywire.com/stories/530092711-roseland-hospital-phlebotomist-30-of-those-tested-have-coronavirus-antibody (https://chicagocitywire.com/stories/530092711-roseland-hospital-phlebotomist-30-of-those-tested-have-coronavirus-antibody)
First story I've seen:
QuoteA phlebotomist working at Roseland Community Hospital said Thursday that 30% to 50% of patients tested for the coronavirus have antibodies while only around 10% to 20% of those tested have the active virus.
Note this is not a formal report. Also, they are probably running total IgG and not checking for a particular antigen. But according to Denninger, when we get to 67% positive, we have herd immunity and infections crash.
ASSUMING the numbers are correct and the 50% is the result, Roseland can open back up. In fact, considering that they were in lock down and 50% of a sample tests positive for exposure, you can see that the lock down did absolutely nothing.
James, please. What is IgG and who is Denniger?
Karl Denninger. He predicted the 2008 collapse and is a numbers guy. market-ticker.org. He believes in the virus, but says the best approach is to do nothing based on analyzing the actual data.
His daily podcast is very informative.
Quote from: james03 on April 10, 2020, 08:27:35 AM
https://chicagocitywire.com/stories/530092711-roseland-hospital-phlebotomist-30-of-those-tested-have-coronavirus-antibody (https://chicagocitywire.com/stories/530092711-roseland-hospital-phlebotomist-30-of-those-tested-have-coronavirus-antibody)
First story I've seen:
QuoteA phlebotomist working at Roseland Community Hospital said Thursday that 30% to 50% of patients tested for the coronavirus have antibodies while only around 10% to 20% of those tested have the active virus.
Note this is not a formal report. Also, they are probably running total IgG and not checking for a particular antigen. But according to Denninger, when we get to 67% positive, we have herd immunity and infections crash.
ASSUMING the numbers are correct and the 50% is the result, Roseland can open back up. In fact, considering that they were in lock down and 50% of a sample tests positive for exposure, you can see that the lock down did absolutely nothing.
If the latter is the case, it's a totally unsurprising result if the RNA being associated with an hypothesised infectious organism is in reality being sequenced from endogenous phenomena like exosomes that are produced by the body. If this is a contagious disease spread through an infectious microorganism that requires close contact for transmission, and the Germans have already demonstrated it is not transmissible through surface contamination, then lockdowns
ought to do something.
But enter the
ad hoc hypotheses of asymptomatic carriers and incubation times to save the day. All these people must, of course, have been infected prior to lockdowns.
IgG is Immunoglobulin G. It is the antibody responsible for fighting viruses.
Miriam, yeah, it's predominantly our own local situation we have to be concerned about; we can look at how local hospitals are doing.
Graham, true, some deaths being reported today may have happened a while ago. I'm looking at deaths over about a 10 day period.
Till March 21st, there had been about 13,000 deaths. Till 31'st March 37,500. So, over 10 days, 24,500. But next 10 days are much worse.
Anyway, it's Good Friday today. And the casualties from the Chinese Communist Party Virus today have crossed 100,000. A tragic milestone.
Cases: 1.65 Million. Deaths: 100,500. Case Fatality Rate: 6.1%. Reported deaths over last 10 days: 50,000+. That's not good.
Note how CFR continually increased as discussed earlier. It's now over 6%, which makes the death rate 60 times worse than the flu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLV1B5Lzy48
Anyway, in other news, the Irish PM said the "fervent hope" is to ease the restrictions by May 5th: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ireland-restrictio/irish-pm-says-fervent-hope-is-to-ease-virus-restrictions-after-may-5-idUSKCN21S1P9 Ireland has about 6500 cases with 265 deaths.
India has about 7500 cases with 250 deaths. The Indian Council of Medical Research recommended chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine and some say the low number of deaths is because of that. There was also a lockdown here for the last few weeks, and on April 14th, possible loosening is being discussed.
After initially banning HCQ exports, because it was need for Indians, India on request exported the hydroxychloroquine to several countries, including America, Brazil and Israel that I'm aware. Trump, Bolsonaro and Netanyahu later thanked our Prime Minster Modi.
Anyway, let's see how it goes. If the 10-day death toll significantly decreases, then imo we'll have a good idea that the virus is slowing down or being stopped. Let's unite our crosses and sacrifices during this time to Our Lord's Cross and His Holy Sacrifice.
Mortgage Bond Holders dropping like flies! Here's my advice: learn to code </sarcasm>
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbdSEJCibe8&feature=youtu.be[/yt]
Respect. Here's some people with cojones. I think they call it Chutzpah.
NYC Jews hold funeral despite COVID-19 pandemic.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NhwUy3Us9Y[/yt]
Watch and spread far and wide. This is most likely due to 5G. It depletes oxygen uptake by the cells
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GYTc53r2o&fbclid=IwAR3twclV7EnolgZWbUj8TKgx-QZj37ocDToaUcNj_Hk3Rz4NfaqdudQ893c
Quote from: martin88nyc on April 10, 2020, 02:54:33 PM
Watch and spread far and wide. This is most likely due to 5G. It depletes oxygen uptake by the cells
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GYTc53r2o&fbclid=IwAR3twclV7EnolgZWbUj8TKgx-QZj37ocDToaUcNj_Hk3Rz4NfaqdudQ893c
Maybe. But various antivirals definitely do. (Hydroxy)Chloroquine attacks haemoglobin, some others cause anaemia, etc.
Quote from: clau clau on April 10, 2020, 01:05:47 PM
Respect. Here's some people with cojones. I think they call it Chutzpah.
NYC Jews hold funeral despite COVID-19 pandemic.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NhwUy3Us9Y[/yt]
Jews have something called the Mosaic Law. It's divine law so it's higher than the civil government. We Christians only have the law of the Gospel, so we have to do what the government tell us.
USA: 501,000 cases. 18,666 deaths. Really looks like we have peaked, which kinda matches the one report I found on antibodies. So if we've peaked, expect us to hang around at the 2,000 deaths per day level a little, and then it will drop.
Italy: 148,000 cases. 18,849 deaths. Tomorrow the USA will surpass Italy in deaths.
Quote from: james03 on April 10, 2020, 05:24:36 PM
USA: 501,000 cases. 18,666 deaths. Really looks like we have peaked, which kinda matches the one report I found on antibodies. So if we've peaked, expect us to hang around at the 2,000 deaths per day level a little, and then it will drop.
Italy: 148,000 cases. 18,849 deaths. Tomorrow the USA will surpass Italy in deaths.
When do we see the peak in starvation?
Quote'Breadlines' Erupt Across America As Lockdowns Crush America's "Working Poor"
The economy has crashed into a depression, 16.78 million Americans have applied for unemployment benefits, and consumer sentiment crashed the most on record. This American horror story has taken only three weeks to play out, the fastest and most severe economic crash in the country's history, and still, we don't know the true extent of the damage until the second half of the year.
However, the one thing we do know is that food bank networks across the country have reported unprecedented demand as a hunger crisis unfolds. Here's our reporting on the evolution of the virus pandemic, has morphed into a financial crash, and now social crisis:
•Supplies Are Starting To Get Really Tight Nationwide As Food Distribution Systems Break Down as Food Banks Overwhelmed As America's "Working Poor" Starve During Lockdown
•America's New Breadlines Are Growing...
And how do we know food bank networks are becoming "overwhelmed" across the country? Well, citizen journalists have launched their Chinese DJI drones overhead food banks to figure out why there are miles-long traffic jams of hangry people. And it appears that these lines are America's new breadlines, similar to what was seen nine decades ago in the Great Depression.
"Hundreds of cars" waiting in line at a food bank in Duquesne, Pennsylvania on March 2nd.
April 2, documenting long lines of cars trying to get into the Feeding South Florida food bank, located in Broward County.
On Thursday, the San Antonio Food Bank, located in San Antonio, Texas, aided about 10,000 households with food.
Helicopter footage, courtesy of KENS 5 San Antonio News, shows the shocking aerial view of thousands of cars lined up at the food bank, waiting to receive a care pack.
Also, on Thursday, the Los Angeles Regional Food Bank saw a "line of cars waiting for free groceries stretched about a mile," reported Reuters. Hundreds of other people, many the working-class poor, lined the streets waiting for food:
"This food saves me money because my little income goes to my rent," said Daniel Jimenez, 40, an independent contractor for golf tournaments.
"I haven't been working for three weeks. I have a little money saved but I'm paying rent, gas, and cellphone bills. I don't even know when we're going back to work," Jimenez said.
These are America's new breadlines. As food banks become inundated with hangry Americans, what happens when these nonprofits run out of food to feed people? Could a hunger crisis lead to social unrest? (With our militarized police that can be taken care of easily. Ed.)
One death for every 1000 un-employed. Now that is a good average. That makes it all worthwhile.
Maybe they can eat cake.
QuoteWhen do we see the peak in starvation?
Hasn't even started, though I think we can last a year or so. We need to see the dollar collapse. M2 is skyrocketing. Gold is starting to move. So we're rushing to it. Going off of M2, we've already devalued 10%, and they are just starting.
On the good side, everyone is printing, so people will still honor the dollar, and thus no hyperinflation in the near term. But good luck affording medical care, house, car, education, and beef a year from now. Enjoy it while it lasts. This assumes that we will come back at a good clip after the lock down. Which is not an assumption I'm confident in. If we end up with wave after wave of bankruptcy and pension blow ups, Katy bar the door.
edit: M2 data is as of March 30. So we've probably devalued by more than 20% at this point. What is "saving" us right now is the demand destruction and competitive devaluations across the globe.
Quote from: james03 on April 10, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
QuoteWhen do we see the peak in starvation?
Hasn't even started, though I think we can last a year or so. We need to see the dollar collapse. M2 is skyrocketing. Gold is starting to move. So we're rushing to it. Going off of M2, we've already devalued 10%, and they are just starting.
On the good side, everyone is printing, so people will still honor the dollar, and thus no hyperinflation in the near term. But good luck affording medical care, house, car, education, and beef a year from now. Enjoy it while it lasts. This assumes that we will come back at a good clip after the lock down. Which is not an assumption I'm confident in. If we end up with wave after wave of bankruptcy and pension blow ups, Katy bar the door.
edit: M2 data is as of March 30. So we've probably devalued by more than 20% at this point. What is "saving" us right now is the demand destruction and competitive devaluations across the globe.
Few questions James if I may. Edit: by the way, I have no certain answer to these questions.
1. So best case scenario in a year, in your estimation there's probably still going to be economic ruin? We were getting ready to buy a modest middle class house (150 k, 3 bedrooms, nice rural neighborhood ten years old) which I can afford fine now, but not in a year? For most people? What then, buying a cheaper house would be a must? I mean that would mean most people here reading your predictions and advise would need to start planning to majorly downsize or go minimalist ASAP.
2. You'd think that if your view is right, if I understand it correctly that a lockdown is just temporarily going to contain the virus, that we should be working toward herd immunity, that otherwise we're already facing economic collapse a couple months into this, that there would be a number of mainstream government officials or experts sounding the alarm to reverse action, and we'd be hearing about it as part of the daily argument in the press. To reason with Trump. Are there many doing this? (we don't have cable news and I just mainly skim daily news headlines).
3. While the constitution guarantees peaceful assembly, that is understood to have limits right, for example permits are reasonable for parades in the street, etc. For the sake of argument, if the premise were accepted as true that public gatherings right now pose serious risk of spreading a pandemic, could you accept that normal public gatherings at the moment generally would not qualify as "peaceful" assemblies?
QuoteSo best case scenario in a year, in your estimation there's probably still going to be economic ruin? We were getting ready to buy a modest house (150 k, 3 bedrooms, nice rural neighborhood ten years old) which I can afford fine now, but not in a year?? What then, buy a cheaper house? I mean that would mean most people here reading your predictions and advise would need to start planning to majority downsize or go minimalist ASAP.
Well my name is not James but I offer my thoughts.
This is the Greatest Depression. The real question is whether or not the USD loses its reserve currency status. I think it will and if so, that means the cornucopia of free stuff from overseas gets cut off. [if it matters, I do not think any national currency will replace it]
As for the question of the house, I am convinced that the government will print USD to pay off every loan, every pension, every bond, every mortgage and make good on every bank deposit. This will not be a deflationary depression like the Great Depression, but rather a hugely inflationary depression. If so then USD will be of very low purchasing power. If you have USD I recommend turning it into physical assets [though you should always retain enough USD to facilitate purchases]. What specifically you turn it into is dependent upon your life and situation. For example it could be a house to live in, or tools for work, or gold coins for savings, or merely frontloading future purchases (books, homeschool materials, furniture, etc). The purpose is not to waste the money on frivolous junk but rather move forward the purchase of something you will utilize well in the future.
If you are borrowing to purchase the home then the loan will likely be of very little value in the future and should be easily paid off. However I never advise borrowing money, even though I am 99.99% sure this will be an inflationary crackup, so borrow at your own risk. There is an extremely high chance that loan will be of very little value in the future but if wrong then usury destroys people and families. I personally cannot tolerate such explosive downside risk.
The destruction of the purchasing power of the USD will not happen tomorrow but it is looking very likely to occur over 2020-2021.
I think the economy of the future will look nothing like that of the past. The US will lose its reserve currency status and thus its exorbitant privilege. Trade will be balanced because no one will accept payment in USD (it will likely be payment in gold or maybe SDRs run by the Euros & China). This will force rebalancing on the US economy out of a service / consumer economy into a manufacturing & agricultural / natural resources economy. This rebalancing will be agonizing in the short run (several years) but excellent in the long run.
With M2 skyrocketing, we will get price inflation. We didn't see that last crisis, the Fed increased the monetary base and it sat in excess reserves.
Countering price inflation is demand destruction. That is what is keeping a lid on prices right now and why crude oil/gasoline are so cheap. China took 6 MBD of demand off the market. Once we get back to work and demand gets back to normal, then the price inflation shows up. Then it will be up to what the Fed does. However the damage is already done. It's just a matter of deciding who gets to pay for it.
1. Minimizing your debt load during economic downturns is rule number 1. Considering you are in the medical field in an aging population, you are probably secure. The mortgage payment on a $150K house is pretty low, and interest rates are absurd. So you are probably ok to buy, but that is your decision. And to me minimalism is a good call. Unfortunately saving money doesn't work when they destroy the currency. Depends on what the Fed does.
2. More and more politicians will speak out as we get more and more civil disobedience and people speaking out. Politicians observe which way a crowd is going, then jump in front and yell "follow me". But yes, more and more politicians are speaking out. Herd immunity is the only answer, and luckily this virus is pretty tame. It really does compare to the flu, which kills 60K a year in the US with the same commorbidities.
3. Being discussed on another thread. Don't want to fork the discussion.
Quote from: james03 on April 10, 2020, 11:28:42 PM
With M2 skyrocketing, we will get price inflation. We didn't see that last crisis, the Fed increased the monetary base and it sat in excess reserves.
Countering price inflation is demand destruction. That is what is keeping a lid on prices right now and why crude oil/gasoline are so cheap. China took 6 MBD of demand off the market. Once we get back to work and demand gets back to normal, then the price inflation shows up. Then it will be up to what the Fed does. However the damage is already done. It's just a matter of deciding who gets to pay for it.
JAMES! What the foxtrot is 'M2'?
Your contributions are a main reason I come here, but you have to walk back the argot. Danke.
Chris--get a house where you mortgage is <20% of income. 20% max. We did with the intention of glamming it up to our tastes, but now we wait and deal with some of the sparten aspects: 1 crusty bathroom, mole demolished property(funny story, my Expedition got stuck in front yard due to the micro vietcong network of tunnels those critters created), etc. All remodels and landscaping projects put on hold. As Davis mentioned, get physical with useful things. Me? I am trying to wrap my head around buying gold vs. silver. Maybe if silver explodes I can exchange it for gold. Who knows. Seeds and ammo and powdered protein for sure, Geck*. I am going to indulge during Eastertide(Cincinnati Chili by the bucket), but in a few weeks I am going back to minimal calories per day in anticipation of pain. It is going to be a tough fight.
[yt]https://youtu.be/lSPNQ82Sq4E[/yt]
*German meaning, not Scottish
This is a graph of the monetary base, or if you want to be a slickster, you can call it "base money":
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=BOGMBASEW (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=BOGMBASEW)
This is what the Fed is doing. This shows monetary inflation/deflation. It will always be inflation (devaluation of the money).
Base money is basically between banks and Fed, with circulating cash thrown in, which is a rounding error.
This is M2 money supply which is the amount the people have at the bank. This correlates with price inflation:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=WM2NS (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=WM2NS)
You can use the sliders at the bottom of the graphs to blow them up. Use the left slider and get around a 10 yr. view.
In summary, the Fed has blown up their balance sheet, AND with the Federal spending programs that money is now out in people's accounts. As long as there is demand destruction (people sitting at home), you aren't going to get a lot of price inflation (though evidently the price of eggs have really gone up). The question is what happens when we "reopen"? Depends on if there are bankruptcies and financial wipe outs or not.
You have also mentioned pension defaults. Could be interesting. I guess I would stand to lose.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 10, 2020, 11:12:51 PM
QuoteSo best case scenario in a year, in your estimation there's probably still going to be economic ruin? We were getting ready to buy a modest house (150 k, 3 bedrooms, nice rural neighborhood ten years old) which I can afford fine now, but not in a year?? What then, buy a cheaper house? I mean that would mean most people here reading your predictions and advise would need to start planning to majority downsize or go minimalist ASAP.
This is the Greatest Depression. The real question is whether or not the USD loses its reserve currency status. I think it will and if so, that means the cornucopia of free stuff from overseas gets cut off. [if it matters, I do not think any national currency will replace it]
As for the question of the house, I am convinced that the government will print USD to pay off every loan, every pension, every bond, every mortgage and make good on every bank deposit...
If you are borrowing to purchase the home then the loan will likely be of very little value in the future and should be easily paid off...
Ok, how do we determine the likelihood of what you predict about inflation in the near future? Or is that your gut instinct from your knowledge of money and the history of depressions/recessions? To me, before majorly shifting my financial planning in the near future to plan for another great depression, I'd need hard data pointing to this likelihood from a growing number of credible financial experts, but so far they seem to be a very small minority talking about a possible depression. Though I suppose the wise man today should already be planning for this in the
long term aiming for zero debt, owning more gold and useful property, simplifying life, etc. Thanks for the feedback, the comment about starting to buy more physical things useful in the future, before major inflation, makes sense, so I decided we need to start buying more of these things asap. For example, more garden tools, power tools, a generator, useful books.
Quote from: james03 on April 10, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
QuoteWhen do we see the peak in starvation?
Hasn't even started, though I think we can last a year or so. We need to see the dollar collapse. M2 is skyrocketing. Gold is starting to move. So we're rushing to it. Going off of M2, we've already devalued 10%, and they are just starting.
On the good side, everyone is printing, so people will still honor the dollar, and thus no hyperinflation in the near term. But good luck affording medical care, house, car, education, and beef a year from now. Enjoy it while it lasts. This assumes that we will come back at a good clip after the lock down. Which is not an assumption I'm confident in. If we end up with wave after wave of bankruptcy and pension blow ups, Katy bar the door.
edit: M2 data is as of March 30. So we've probably devalued by more than 20% at this point. What is "saving" us right now is the demand destruction and competitive devaluations across the globe.
I agree. The middle class continues to get wiped out, the poor continue to feed off of what's left of the middle class, and the rich get richer. I heard that Buffet made a ton of money in the partial collapse of the stock market. He just sold $30 million of Bank of New York stock. Now he can send more money to Planned Parenthood.
We are so deep into this that only a complete wipe out will return man to God.
Quote from: christulsa on April 11, 2020, 09:15:10 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 10, 2020, 11:12:51 PM
QuoteSo best case scenario in a year, in your estimation there's probably still going to be economic ruin? We were getting ready to buy a modest house (150 k, 3 bedrooms, nice rural neighborhood ten years old) which I can afford fine now, but not in a year?? What then, buy a cheaper house? I mean that would mean most people here reading your predictions and advise would need to start planning to majority downsize or go minimalist ASAP.
This is the Greatest Depression. The real question is whether or not the USD loses its reserve currency status. I think it will and if so, that means the cornucopia of free stuff from overseas gets cut off. [if it matters, I do not think any national currency will replace it]
As for the question of the house, I am convinced that the government will print USD to pay off every loan, every pension, every bond, every mortgage and make good on every bank deposit...
If you are borrowing to purchase the home then the loan will likely be of very little value in the future and should be easily paid off...
Ok, how do we determine the likelihood of what you predict about inflation in the near future? Or is that your gut instinct from your knowledge of money and the history of depressions/recessions? To me, before majorly shifting my financial planning in the near future to plan for another great depression, I'd need hard data pointing to this likelihood from a growing number of credible financial experts, but so far they seem to be a very small minority talking about a possible depression. Though I suppose the wise man today should already be planning for this in the long term aiming for zero debt, owning more gold and useful property, simplifying life, etc. Thanks for the feedback, the comment about starting to buy more physical things useful in the future, before major inflation, makes sense, so I decided we need to start buying more of these things asap. For example, more garden tools, power tools, a generator, useful books.
There is no long term planning. Go with the Fed and don't fight the Fed. The economy will sooner or later have a rebound when the lockdown ends. Throw everything at the market because if the economy still crashes after the end of lockdown and all this Fed stimulus who cares? We are all doomed at that point. I plan on throwing everything in including the kitchen sink. I ain't missing March 2009 again.
The Federal Reserve controls the US and we are but small little fish in a very big pond.
Quote from: james03 on April 10, 2020, 11:52:06 PM
2. More and more politicians will speak out as we get more and more civil disobedience and people speaking out. Politicians observe which way a crowd is going, then jump in front and yell "follow me". But yes, more and more politicians are speaking out. Herd immunity is the only answer, and luckily this virus is pretty tame. It really does compare to the flu, which kills 60K a year in the US with the same commorbidities.
What I find telling is that on sites like Drudge Report there are very few reports from experts or politicians sounding the alarm against the lockdown potentially causing economic fallout, or that herd immunity is the answer, whereas that opinion is more circulated in social media by a small minority. This tells me that this alternative opinion so far may be based more on ideology and intuition that may or may not be proven right, than on hard data pointing to certain conclusions. BUT, considering that your predictions may be correct and ARE based on economic and historical data, the deafening silence right now about a potential fallout also suggests the public is deliberately not being told the risks of lockdown to society, and that those in charge are either idiots who cannot self-assess the wisdom of the recent decision and consider reversing it, or are already planning more socialist control of the country.
QuoteI plan on throwing everything in including the kitchen sink. I ain't missing March 2009 again.
Depending on your age now would be a great time to buy dividend paying stocks and never sell them. With interest rates locked down to about zero, for a long, long, time, those dividends will really help in retirement. I'd own individual stocks, and no, no recommendations.
If you are good at trading, then buying low and selling high is also a strategy. Though I think volatility will collapse and we'll get a trending market up.
"Don't fight the Fed" has about a 100% success rate, but who knows given how crazy things have gotten.
QuoteOk, how do we determine the likelihood of what you predict about inflation in the near future? Or is that your gut instinct from your knowledge of money and the history of depressions/recessions?
A house is never an investment, except in California where you buy, then sell out to the Chinese and Indians and move to a low cost State. That's a niche. For the rest, it is not, because after you sell, you then need a place to live, which also will have gone up in price.
So if you can get a good deal on a house, and you can lock in insanely low mortgage rates, think of it as buying something at a deep discount.
In a Depression, the problem is losing your job. If I were a cook on a Cruise Ship, I'd hold off buying. Since you are in medical, you are probably in a good situation with regards to job security. Anything servicing aging Baby Boomers is a good choice, especially medical.
My question about buying a $150K house was more rhetorical in response to your opinion stated earlier, see below. If that kind of fallout in the next 12 months is likely, or probable, or certain (how much so is the question), then most reading here who are middle class and going with the flow need to URGENTLY start doing some major back-paddling, and consider more drastic economic choices than whether or not to shop at Aldis or Walmart.
So even if we come back somewhat after the lockdown, as you suggest, you still predict people a year from now having a hard time affording a house, car, medical care, etc? That is compared to now? I'm asking because many people here including me generally respect your advise, but if some were to follow it in their family situation that would be a risk. Maybe you can clarify your statement, predictions about how bad you think the fallout is going to be? Other elders here are making similar predictions about disaster (Greg, Davis, etc).
Quote from: james03 on April 10, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
QuoteBut good luck affording medical care, house, car, education, and beef a year from now. Enjoy it while it lasts. This assumes that we will come back at a good clip after the lock down. Which is not an assumption I'm confident in.
Don't predict the market, instead listen to what it is telling you. You don't have to make a decision today, though there is one I will advise: get your debt down. This is always good advice, but especially in a depression.
The problem, which is why I said I was not confident, is that you have monetary inflation vs. demand destruction. I don't think you will see hyperinflation in the near term, as this is defined when the sheeple wake up and realize the only thing they have are pieces of paper. Then the paper quickly becomes worthless. We are a ways away from that, but my kids might see it.
With M2 blasting off, I'm leaning towards inflation winning out. We did not see this the last time the Fed went ballistic after 2008. The Fed money stayed in excess reserves. But you did see it on a small scale in home prices, medical costs (arguably more from Odumbo care), college tuitions, new car prices, and beef (can be exported to the Mid East, which owns a lot of our debt).
In the meantime prices will be cheap. Don't know how long that lasts. Gold is doing well and stocks are also recovering. Points to inflation.
Note to self. Read more books on economics. I don't have a clue what half of these terms and concepts mean. :P
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 53: Anticoagulation; Can Mechanical Ventilation Make COVID 19 Worse?
A recent paper from Dr. Gattinoni, a physician on the frontlines in Italy, describes who there may be two different "phenotypes" of COVID-19...and one of them is not amenable to mechanical ventilation. Dr. Seheult discusses the details of how some have compared COVID-19 to high altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE). Embolism risk and anticoagulation with COVID-19 are also discussed.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8aG63yigjA[/yt]
Told You So: HERE COME FOOD SHORTAGES!
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?blog=Market-Ticker
Quote from: clau clau on April 12, 2020, 01:50:49 PM
Told You So: HERE COME FOOD SHORTAGES!
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?blog=Market-Ticker
Fortunately, meat shortages do not seem to have materialized in my U.S. locality. However, depending on the day, on some days poultry has been bought out, on other days certain cuts of beef, but overall, I cannot complain, particularly when it comes to small, independently owned groceries.
But here's what I've noticed, to my great surprise and even shock: About half the population does not cook. Seriously. I mean, packaged, frozen, and ready-to-eat foods (I don't necessarily mean high-end prepared foods, but lower-end) have disappeared from shelves and cases. It's astounding, given that I live in an area which supposedly prides itself on DIY of all kinds, including high-quality home cooking. Combined with the "desperate" mania for take-out food locally (which I reported probably a week or 10 days ago), there's some confirmation that a good 50% of the population in my region did not have a habit of cooking
anything from scratch,
before Covid.
My observations are confirmed by my sister, who lives hundreds of miles from me, in the same state. She also says that fresh items are overall in abundant or at least sufficient supply, whereas "convenience foods" are mostly sold out. And I'm talking adult communities, not college students with no access to kitchen facilities and/or few acquired cooking skills.
Wow. People are this lazy?
Quote from: Miriam_M on April 12, 2020, 04:01:25 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 12, 2020, 01:50:49 PM
Told You So: HERE COME FOOD SHORTAGES!
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?blog=Market-Ticker
Fortunately, meat shortages do not seem to have materialized in my U.S. locality. However, depending on the day, on some days poultry has been bought out, on other days certain cuts of beef, but overall, I cannot complain, particularly when it comes to small, independently owned groceries.
But here's what I've noticed, to my great surprise and even shock: About half the population does not cook. Seriously. I mean, packaged, frozen, and ready-to-eat foods (I don't necessarily mean high-end prepared foods, but lower-end) have disappeared from shelves and cases. It's astounding, given that I live in an area which supposedly prides itself on DIY of all kinds, including high-quality home cooking. Combined with the "desperate" mania for take-out food locally (which I reported probably a week or 10 days ago), there's some confirmation that a good 50% of the population in my region did not have a habit of cooking anything from scratch, before Covid.
My observations are confirmed by my sister, who lives hundreds of miles from me, in the same state. She also says that fresh items are overall in abundant or at least sufficient supply, whereas "convenience foods" are mostly sold out. And I'm talking adult communities, not college students with no access to kitchen facilities and/or few acquired cooking skills.
Wow. People are this lazy?
I've seen the same thing.
USA: 560,000 cases, 22,115 vs predicted 32,000. So doubling time is stretching out like we saw in Italy. In fact it looks like we are past the peak, so I'm switch to a logarithmic curve fit. Prediction for next week is 30,000 dead. As immunity continues to spread, deaths will continue to decrease. Probably around 50,000 total dead.
Italy: 156,000 cases, 19,899 dead. Slightly lower than predicted. Italy is well past the peak. I'm predicting 21,800 by next Sunday. Total deaths will be around 25,000, maybe a little more.
Open the economy. #EndThePanic
QuoteNote to self. Read more books on economics.
There's a world famous Catholic economics book available on Amazon entitled:
The Economics of Catholic Subsidiarity.
But with regards to the above, think of it like a tug-of-war. Demand destruction on one side, and price inflation on the other. Demand destruction just means people stop buying. So you end up with gluts and producers dropping their price to try to sell their product. The price of gasoline is a good example. China dropped out of the world market (6 MM bbls. per day of crude imports), and people aren't commuting in the U.S. Demand destruction, and prices are dropping.
The Fed is trying to support prices by devaluing the U.S. dollar. This leads to price increases or price inflation, like Venezuela.
Once we get the economy rolling again, expect a lot higher prices in certain areas. In the meantime, in general, demand destruction is winning out.
Quote from: james03 on April 12, 2020, 10:35:03 PM
QuoteNote to self. Read more books on economics.
There's a world famous Catholic economics book available on Amazon entitled: The Economics of Catholic Subsidiarity.
But with regards to the above, think of it like a tug-of-war. Demand destruction on one side, and price inflation on the other. Demand destruction just means people stop buying. So you end up with gluts and producers dropping their price to try to sell their product. The price of gasoline is a good example. China dropped out of the world market (6 MM bbls. per day of crude imports), and people aren't commuting in the U.S. Demand destruction, and prices are dropping.
The Fed is trying to support prices by devaluing the U.S. dollar. This leads to price increases or price inflation, like Venezuela.
Once we get the economy rolling again, expect a lot higher prices in certain areas. In the meantime, in general, demand destruction is winning out.
So if we see demand destruction, what do you think will be some useful items to buy that we'd likely see a major price reduction?
ps I knew you were going to mention your book.
Quote from: maryslittlegarden on April 12, 2020, 04:04:27 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on April 12, 2020, 04:01:25 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 12, 2020, 01:50:49 PM
Told You So: HERE COME FOOD SHORTAGES!
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?blog=Market-Ticker
Fortunately, meat shortages do not seem to have materialized in my U.S. locality. However, depending on the day, on some days poultry has been bought out, on other days certain cuts of beef, but overall, I cannot complain, particularly when it comes to small, independently owned groceries.
But here's what I've noticed, to my great surprise and even shock: About half the population does not cook. Seriously. I mean, packaged, frozen, and ready-to-eat foods (I don't necessarily mean high-end prepared foods, but lower-end) have disappeared from shelves and cases. It's astounding, given that I live in an area which supposedly prides itself on DIY of all kinds, including high-quality home cooking. Combined with the "desperate" mania for take-out food locally (which I reported probably a week or 10 days ago), there's some confirmation that a good 50% of the population in my region did not have a habit of cooking anything from scratch, before Covid.
My observations are confirmed by my sister, who lives hundreds of miles from me, in the same state. She also says that fresh items are overall in abundant or at least sufficient supply, whereas "convenience foods" are mostly sold out. And I'm talking adult communities, not college students with no access to kitchen facilities and/or few acquired cooking skills.
Wow. People are this lazy?
I've seen the same thing.
Same thing over here. I predicted it a long time ago (not on here, however).
Quote from: The Curt Jester on April 12, 2020, 11:47:07 PM
Quote from: maryslittlegarden on April 12, 2020, 04:04:27 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on April 12, 2020, 04:01:25 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 12, 2020, 01:50:49 PM
Told You So: HERE COME FOOD SHORTAGES!
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?blog=Market-Ticker
Fortunately, meat shortages do not seem to have materialized in my U.S. locality. However, depending on the day, on some days poultry has been bought out, on other days certain cuts of beef, but overall, I cannot complain, particularly when it comes to small, independently owned groceries.
But here's what I've noticed, to my great surprise and even shock: About half the population does not cook. Seriously. I mean, packaged, frozen, and ready-to-eat foods (I don't necessarily mean high-end prepared foods, but lower-end) have disappeared from shelves and cases. It's astounding, given that I live in an area which supposedly prides itself on DIY of all kinds, including high-quality home cooking. Combined with the "desperate" mania for take-out food locally (which I reported probably a week or 10 days ago), there's some confirmation that a good 50% of the population in my region did not have a habit of cooking anything from scratch, before Covid.
My observations are confirmed by my sister, who lives hundreds of miles from me, in the same state. She also says that fresh items are overall in abundant or at least sufficient supply, whereas "convenience foods" are mostly sold out. And I'm talking adult communities, not college students with no access to kitchen facilities and/or few acquired cooking skills.
Wow. People are this lazy?
I've seen the same thing.
Same thing over here. I predicted it a long time ago (not on here, however).
And here I was coming from a framework of assuming that because all in my own circle cooked, most people cooked. (I don't see myself as coming from some unusual group, except in religious affiliation, LOL.) I thought I was mainstream, but boy have I learned what a minority I belong to, and not just in regard to this lifestyle, but to others as well.
That is, I live in one of the highest cost-of-living areas in the country. People constantly talk about it, socially and in the news. Well, no kidding. Let's see, if you spend oodles of money on:
Prepared and/or served (restaurant) food
Sports Entertainment (lots of wailing going on about absence of professional spectator sports now)
Movie entertainment (non-essential services)
The most "hip" or name-brand clothing and shoes
Yes, no surprise: You will have little left for rent, which should come before all of the above anyway.
It's the American way of life: self-indulgence is the number one category of expenditure, apparently. Yes, I did know such people existed, but certainly not in the numbers I'm seeing.
As a child growing up in a Catholic family of four children, I lacked for nothing. I would call us neither poor nor rich. Although we were comfortably middle class, indulgences were considered treats, and thus uncommon. Of the 20 meals we ate per week, 19 of those were at home or the homes of relatives, most weeks. That's probably why I learned to become a competent cook while still a juvenile: plenty of opportunity to observe and participate. Going to premium movies was rare, and sports events even more so. Spas were not everyday opportunities; they were considered privileges of the upper class.
I am learning an awful lot about the buying events of more than half of the country (it seems), and I find it disillusioning that luxury and ease are considered necessities by so many in the middle class.
For decades, "women's work", i.e. running the household (cooking, etc) has been denigrated by feminists and the media/culture. Add to that the concept of having your children's resume full of extra-curricular activities so they'll look well-rounded when they apply to college. So on top of a full-time job, the mother, after work, is driving the children all over the place. Dinner? The drive-thru at McDonald's.
I'm in my 60's. I've just begun to learn real cooking in the past few years.
James,
What are your thoughts on paying off a mortgage? I had a plan to actually start paying down my principle starting this month. Was 5 years into a 30 year and had planned on paying it off in 10 years, so 15 years early. However, with all of this craziness I have decided on holding off for a little bit. You mentioned paying off debts but if there is an inflationary future, then my long term debt would be easy to pay off with the funny money.
I have a 6-month savings fund and my job (work for the Navy) is pretty secure.
Thanks.
Quote from: Lynne on April 13, 2020, 04:53:43 AM
For decades, "women's work", i.e. running the household (cooking, etc) has been denigrated by feminists and the media/culture. Add to that the concept of having your children's resume full of extra-curricular activities so they'll look well-rounded when they apply to college. So on top of a full-time job, the mother, after work, is driving the children all over the place. Dinner? The drive-thru at McDonald's.
I'm in my 60's. I've just begun to learn real cooking in the past few years.
Good for you! I've been following all this just reading, but one of the things I noticed early and makes me sad, is this very thing:
All the "convenience items" people (with all the packaging that fills up landfills and pisses off the same people) is apparently what 90% of people eat 90% of the time. I learned to cook when I was 5. We are eating really well during all this! And we are either dead quiet or laughing hysterically or playing something as a family. I love it. I just need a paycheck!!
QuoteWhat are your thoughts on paying off a mortgage?
Look to refinance into a lower interest rate if possible, and yes, pay it down. Usually in the scenario we will be facing wages don't keep up with price inflation. So you actually end up with lower REAL take home pay.
Navy job is very secure, but with a $3 TRILLION deficit, what are the odds that you'll be getting good raises in the future?
The New York Times has claimed that the all-cause death total for NY for the last month is more than double that of the same month from a normal year.
Quote from: Graham on April 13, 2020, 02:32:23 PM
The New York Times has claimed that the all-cause death total for NY for the last month is more than double that of a normal year.
I just read that myself, minutes ago.
Italy, Spain, Austria, and Denmark starting to reopen things.
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/4-european-countries-easing-lockdown-restrictions-this-week-123122914.html
Odd that this should be happening. I was reliably informed that states would continue lockdown for months until their economies were toast and then institute a mandatory vaccine. What's the deal
I have not been able to keep up with this thread or the forum, so I am not sure if people looked at this link. Sorry, if someone else already posted this here.
This was posted by Heinrich in the Natural Sciences section. Thanks, Heinrich.
It is very important for people to read about this. Bill Gates is involved in all of it.
People think that he is the "expert" in vaccines & infectious diseases. ::) Why???
After the United States, Bill Gates is the second donor, through his foundation to the WHO. He has been involved with vaccines for years. He believes that the world is overpopulated...He has been involved with Dr. Fauci for years as well.
He has a lot of power within the WHO .
https://news.mit.edu/2019/storing-vaccine-history-skin-1218
What do you think?
:pray2:
Quote from: Graham on April 13, 2020, 03:00:12 PM
Italy, Spain, Austria, and Denmark starting to reopen things.
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/4-european-countries-easing-lockdown-restrictions-this-week-123122914.html
Odd that this should be happening. I was reliably informed that states would continue lockdown for months until their economies were toast and then institute a mandatory vaccine. What's the deal
Perhaps I was wrong. Maybe our Betters in government and the media really do care about us and would never use a crisis, real or imagined, to curtail our liberties or increase its control over our lives. I'm sure this has all been on the up and up.
I couldn't help noticing that the 2 'thanks' for this post were from Canadians. No wonder that a person like Justin Trudeau is the PM.
Quote from: Graham on April 13, 2020, 03:00:12 PM
Italy, Spain, Austria, and Denmark starting to reopen things.
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/4-european-countries-easing-lockdown-restrictions-this-week-123122914.html
Odd that this should be happening. I was reliably informed that states would continue lockdown for months until their economies were toast and then institute a mandatory vaccine. What's the deal
No you weren't told that, it has been predicted that there would be a cycle of lockdown, open up, lock down and open up for the next 18months. Over the weekend this has been mooted more than a few times on the media here and on internet.
Quote from: abc123 on April 13, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
I couldn't help noticing that the 2 'thanks' for this post were from Canadians. No wonder that a person like Justin Trudeau is the PM.
I would be very surprised if any of the Canadians on this forum voted for Justin Trudeau.
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: abc123 on April 13, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
I couldn't help noticing that the 2 'thanks' for this post were from Canadians. No wonder that a person like Justin Trudeau is the PM.
I would be very surprised if any of the Canadians on this forum voted for Justin Trudeau.
That was my point. If politically conservative and traditionally Catholic individuals seem ok with government over each and curtailing of individual rights; it's no surprise that Canada is much further down the socialist path than we are.
USA: 585,000 cases, 23,577 dead. Noticeable decline in death rate. The USA is on its way down now.
Italy: 160,000 cases, 20,465 dead. Death rate kind of constant, which is strange.
Quote from: abc123 on April 13, 2020, 05:06:57 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: abc123 on April 13, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
I couldn't help noticing that the 2 'thanks' for this post were from Canadians. No wonder that a person like Justin Trudeau is the PM.
I would be very surprised if any of the Canadians on this forum voted for Justin Trudeau.
That was my point. If politically conservative and traditionally Catholic individuals seem ok with government over each and curtailing of individual rights; it's no surprise that Canada is much further down the socialist path than we are.
It is Catholic teaching that individual rights can be curtailed for the common good. The Catholics who understand and follow this are not supporting socialism. We are merely being Catholic.
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:20:39 PM
It is Catholic teaching that individual rights can be curtailed for the common good. The Catholics who understand and follow this are not supporting socialism. We are merely being Catholic.
Rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic is contrary to the common good.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 13, 2020, 05:27:17 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:20:39 PM
It is Catholic teaching that individual rights can be curtailed for the common good. The Catholics who understand and follow this are not supporting socialism. We are merely being Catholic.
Rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic is contrary to the common good.
Some people do not think that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that the government is "rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic." This does not make us socialists.
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 54: COVID-19 Antibody vs. PCR Testing; When to Relax Social Distancing?
Production of COVID-19 antibody test kits are ramping up - there are over 70 companies producing them. Antibody tests could be one of the keys to eventually easing social distancing restrictions and allowing schools and businesses to re-open. Unfortunately, only one antibody test is FDA approved at this time, and the approval of each company will take some time. Dr. Seheult illustrates how antibody tests and PCR-RT tests for COVID-19 work on the cellular level, and he discusses potential coronavirus vaccine challenges.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgzFAdYwYLM[/yt]
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:33:12 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 13, 2020, 05:27:17 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:20:39 PM
It is Catholic teaching that individual rights can be curtailed for the common good. The Catholics who understand and follow this are not supporting socialism. We are merely being Catholic.
Rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic is contrary to the common good.
Some people do not think that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that the government is "rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic."
And there's the rub. Some do, some don't, with others sitting at various places in between. As a result, some will consider the lockdown laws
just and obey, whilst others
unjust and disobey. Both of which seem perfectly reasonable Catholic responses to me.
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:20:39 PM
It is Catholic teaching that individual rights can be curtailed for the common good.
There is no "common good" other than the individual rights we have in common. And "individual rights" have not been curtailed; the rights of
all individuals, at least of all us plebs, have been denied.
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:33:12 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 13, 2020, 05:27:17 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:20:39 PM
It is Catholic teaching that individual rights can be curtailed for the common good. The Catholics who understand and follow this are not supporting socialism. We are merely being Catholic.
Rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic is contrary to the common good.
Some people do not think that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that the government is "rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic." This does not make us socialists.
No, it just makes you wrong. Likely motivated by by an authoritarian mindset. And if you support these measures, it's definitely motivated by an authoritarian mindset. Socialism is just one form of authoritarianism.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on April 13, 2020, 06:32:54 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:33:12 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 13, 2020, 05:27:17 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 13, 2020, 05:20:39 PM
It is Catholic teaching that individual rights can be curtailed for the common good. The Catholics who understand and follow this are not supporting socialism. We are merely being Catholic.
Rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic is contrary to the common good.
Some people do not think that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that the government is "rolling out a totalitarian, global, police state under cover of a fake pandemic." This does not make us socialists.
No, it just makes you wrong. Likely motivated by by an authoritarian mindset. And if you support these measures, it's definitely motivated by an authoritarian mindset. Socialism is just one form of authoritarianism.
Fixed that for you. :thumbsup:
Quote from: james03 on April 13, 2020, 05:16:25 PM
USA: 585,000 cases, 23,577 dead. Noticeable decline in death rate. The USA is on its way down now.
Italy: 160,000 cases, 20,465 dead. Death rate kind of constant, which is strange.
Dr Andy Kaufman thinks the tests are mistaking exosomes for Covid19. Exosomes are released from cells when the body is under attack from some stressor. So this could explain why a death rate is remaining constant even if lockdown is happening.
https://youtu.be/0YvNRno-JB8
However it wouldn't explain the declining death rate of the US.
Quote from: Jonathan Hart on April 14, 2020, 02:21:11 AM
Quote from: james03 on April 13, 2020, 05:16:25 PM
USA: 585,000 cases, 23,577 dead. Noticeable decline in death rate. The USA is on its way down now.
Italy: 160,000 cases, 20,465 dead. Death rate kind of constant, which is strange.
Dr Andy Kaufman thinks the tests are mistaking exosomes for Covid19. Exosomes are released from cells when the body is under attack from some stressor. So this could explain why a death rate is remaining constant even if lockdown is happening.
https://youtu.be/0YvNRno-JB8
However it wouldn't explain the declining death rate of the US.
Remember, the projections of six million dead a week was taken in consideration with a full scale lock down/social distancing/stay home or else order.
(https://www.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/UK-and-Sweden-Deaths-Per-Million-768x506.png)
End the lockdown. #EndThePanic
I'm gonna make a wild guess that the UK has more people with co-morbidities (obese, diabetic, etc.) than Sweden.
Karl Deninger: 2020 04 14 Dislocation
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRtb5bTiSHE[/yt]
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 55: How COVID-19 Infection Attacks The Immune System & Differs From HIV
Dr. Seheult illustrates new findings from Nature (a peer-reviewed journal) about how the SARS-CoV-2 virus may infect T-cells and render them ineffective during COVID 19 infection. A comparison is also made to how HIV infects T-cells with a key difference being that HIV actually utilizes T-cells of the human immune system to replicate itself (and this has not been observed with SARS-CoV-2. Other topics include a medical review by the Mayo Clinic about potential benefits of sauna/hydrothermal therapy (brief core temperature elevation), and a new "vent multiplexer" that allows some individual adjustment when treating multiple patients with one ventilator.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NffZAGELGg[/yt]
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on April 14, 2020, 06:18:42 PMA comparison is also made to how HIV infects T-cells with a key difference being that HIV actually utilizes T-cells of the human immune system to replicate itself (and this has not been observed with SARS-CoV-2.
Nor has it been observed with "HIV".
USA: 614,000 cases, 26,047 deaths. A big spike up in deaths. A little suspicious and counter trend. I'm suspicious due to the increased politics as Trump goes to open the economy back up. Could be late reporting due to Easter. We'll see in the next few days.
Italy: 162,500 cases, 21,067 deaths. Looks like Italy is holding constant.
Warning: the CDC is only recommending prescription of hydroxychloroquine (malaria drug) for covid patients that are hospitalized in critical condition. NOT for patients with milder symptoms, or people who are asymptomatic (I tested positive, but remain, thanks to God, asymptomatic). It has some very serious side effects, including according to one recent study at least a significant risk for heart attack. Consult your PCP. My PCP confirmed this to me today after I questioned being prescribed this by a doctor (who never examined me, or had my medical history) at the medical facility where I work, for anyone testing positive. I was called into work to "pick up some meds we have for you." Later came across this article, then called my own doc.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/health/chloroquine-risks-coronavirus-treatment-trials-study/index.html
Quote from: christulsa on April 15, 2020, 09:33:58 PM
Warning: the CDC is only recommending prescription of hydroxychloroquine (malaria drug) for covid patients that are hospitalized in critical condition. NOT for patients with milder symptoms, or people who are asymptomatic (I tested positive, but remain, thanks to God, asymptomatic). It has some very serious side effects, including according to one recent study at least a significant risk for heart attack. Consult your PCP. My PCP confirmed this to me today after I questioned being prescribed this by a doctor (who never examined me, or had my medical history) at the medical facility where I work, for anyone testing positive. I was called into work to "pick up some meds we have for you." Later came across this article, then called my own doc.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/health/chloroquine-risks-coronavirus-treatment-trials-study/index.html
Over here in Ireland you could buy this without a prescription!! That was a couple of weeks ago but I don't think you can get any now and besides with all the fake news about it I probably wouldn't get it even with a prescription.
Quote from: christulsa on April 15, 2020, 09:33:58 PM
Warning: the CDC is only recommending prescription of hydroxychloroquine (malaria drug) for covid patients that are hospitalized in critical condition. NOT for patients with milder symptoms, or people who are asymptomatic (I tested positive, but remain, thanks to God, asymptomatic). It has some very serious side effects, including according to one recent study at least a significant risk for heart attack. Consult your PCP. My PCP confirmed this to me today after I questioned being prescribed this by a doctor (who never examined me, or had my medical history) at the medical facility where I work, for anyone testing positive. I was called into work to "pick up some meds we have for you." Later came across this article, then called my own doc.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/health/chloroquine-risks-coronavirus-treatment-trials-study/index.html
I've stated several times in this thread that it's dangerous and attacks your cardiovascular system. It can have fatal consequences if you're suffering from cardiovascular problems, not to mention respiratory issues and diabetes.
Know what Hemolytic anemia is?
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemolytic_anemiaSymptoms of hemolytic anemia are similar to other forms of anemia (fatigue and shortness of breath), but in addition, the breakdown of red cells leads to jaundice and increases the risk of particular long-term complications, such as gallstones[3] and pulmonary hypertension.[4]
The continuous release of free hemoglobin has been linked with the development of pulmonary hypertension (increased pressure over the pulmonary artery); this, in turn, leads to episodes of syncope (fainting), chest pain, and progressive breathlessness.[8] Pulmonary hypertension eventually causes right ventricular heart failure, the symptoms of which are peripheral edema (fluid accumulation in the skin of the legs) and ascites (fluid accumulation in the abdominal cavity).[8]
Quote from: martin88nyc on April 15, 2020, 11:14:23 PM
Quote from: christulsa on April 15, 2020, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on April 15, 2020, 07:02:37 PM
I know this may not be the best place Chris but I feel obligated and urged to write about what I was told about covid 19 by a geneticist who works with doctors. She said that this virus can cause damage without typical symptoms so be wary of that and if you feel strange symptoms then get in touch with a doctor. This engineered virus is capable of causing all kinds of problems like blood clots, strokes, neurological symptoms, gut problems and many more. It is said that it can last up to a month.
What studies show this? What are the strongest sources of scientific evidence to support what this person told you is true? That there is a statistically significant risk for those complications? Other than what they "heard."
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/928653
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007575
there is more. https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/must-read-research-reveals-that-covid-19-attacks-hemoglobin-in-red-blood-cells,-rendering-it-incapable-of-transporting-oxygen--current-medical-protoco?fbclid=IwAR2lvPYFzqYAXjBa6qJ5Sin9DD_nAdjL_ZmaugZfI6jyPIPCWLll2jfEtNs
Thanks for these links Martin. The first two are unconvincing. One case study of 3 patients out of 2 million doesn't suggest corona causes blood clots or stroke. There are a lot of comments posted linked to that article by MDs and PhDs questioning the significance.It would only raise the question for further study, and for more studies to see how damaging C-19 really is to the body.
But the article discussed in the last link is very convincing. That the mechanism of covid deaths may not be so much from pneumonia, as from anemia caused by viral proteins attacking red blood cells, and that chloroquine shows promise of counter-acting these proteins, that is once they are released in later stages of progression (when the patient is hospitalized). That study shows how well how biochemistry investigations can determine the structure of viruses, and how viral proteins actually do damage to human cells. In this case there were several covid proteins shown conclusively with properties that break apart RBCS. If you peruse that article, you can see how advanced yet beautiful is the study of virology and biochemistry.
Quote from: christulsa on April 16, 2020, 10:36:48 AMThat study shows how well how biochemistry investigations can determine the structure of viruses, and how viral proteins actually do damage to human cells. In this case there were several covid proteins shown conclusively with properties that break apart RBCS. If you peruse that article, you can see how advanced yet beautiful is the study of virology and biochemistry.
It shows nothing of the sort. Only in the fantasy land of virology can one look for proteins in a tissue sample and link them to an entity which has never been purified from it. You have no demonstration of the origin of these materials and that they belong to a postulated "virus", much less that this "virus" is exogenous and infectious and not something like an exosome that is part of a body's natural response to disease. But there is no reasoning with true believers.
QuoteThat the mechanism of covid deaths may not be so much from pneumonia, as from anemia caused by viral proteins attacking red blood cells, and that chloroquine shows promise of counter-acting these proteins, that is once they are released in later stages of progression (when the patient is hospitalized).
Just ignoring the fact that chloroquine disrupts the Hb clearance pathway and causes hemolysis. Yeah, what a great drug to give to elderly people suffering from cardiovascular problems.
Or you could just treat cytokine storms with intravenous vitamin C. Or something less obviously dangerous to people with respiratory problems, like diphenhydramine aka Benadryl.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on April 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: christulsa on April 16, 2020, 10:36:48 AMThat study shows how well how biochemistry investigations can determine the structure of viruses, and how viral proteins actually do damage to human cells. In this case there were several covid proteins shown conclusively with properties that break apart RBCS. If you peruse that article, you can see how advanced yet beautiful is the study of virology and biochemistry.
It shows nothing of the sort. Only in the fantasy land of virology can one look for proteins in a tissue sample and link them to an entity which has never been purified from it. You have no demonstration of the origin of these materials and that they belong to a postulated "virus", much less that this "virus" is exogenous and infectious and not something like an exosome. But there is no reasoning with true believers.
QuoteThat the mechanism of covid deaths may not be so much from pneumonia, as from anemia caused by viral proteins attacking red blood cells, and that chloroquine shows promise of counter-acting these proteins, that is once they are released in later stages of progression (when the patient is hospitalized).
Just ignoring the fact that chloroquine disrupts the Hb clearance pathway and causes hemolysis. Yeah, what a great drug to give to elderly people suffering from cardiovascular problems.
Or you could just treat cytokine storms with intravenous vitamin C. Or something less obviously dangerous to people with respiratory problems, like diphenhydramine aka Benadryl.
Sincere questions: Do you believe that disciplines such as biochemistry or microbiology actually can observe and demonstrate the existence of such things as: proteins, lipids, carbohydrates, cell membrane protein channels, pathogenic cytotoxins? Not to mention viruses. How about cholorophyll, ribosomes, ATP, enzymes? Biochemical pathways in a baterium, human cell? If you were in a histology lab, and the histologist let you look in their microscope at erythrocytes from a cultured covid lab sample being destroyed, would you even believe that those erythrocytes exist, or would you think the histologist was lying to you?
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 56: What is "Forest Bathing" & Can It Boost Immunity Against Viruses?
A series of joint studies from Stanford University School of Medicine and several medical schools and institutions in Japan demonstrated that exposure to "phytoncides" released by trees and plants may boost immunity by increasing natural killer cell quantity and activity among other effects.
Dr. Seheult illustrates how these studies were conducted as exposure to forests (forest bathing) may fall into the category of additional things we can do (and that don't cause harm) to potentially help prevent viral infections such as COVID-19. Also discussed is how the state of New York decided to count some deaths that have occurred at home that were presumed to be from COVID-19 but did not have a positive test.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgDjVEpEOdQ[/yt]
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on April 16, 2020, 01:42:39 PM
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 56: What is "Forest Bathing" & Can It Boost Immunity Against Viruses?
A series of joint studies from Stanford University School of Medicine and several medical schools and institutions in Japan demonstrated that exposure to "phytoncides" released by trees and plants may boost immunity by increasing natural killer cell quantity and activity among other effects.
Dr. Seheult illustrates how these studies were conducted as exposure to forests (forest bathing) may fall into the category of additional things we can do (and that don't cause harm) to potentially help prevent viral infections such as COVID-19. Also discussed is how the state of New York decided to count some deaths that have occurred at home that were presumed to be from COVID-19 but did not have a positive test.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgDjVEpEOdQ[/yt]
*St. Francis intensifies* Brother Oak! Sister Pine! Cure this hacking cough of mine!
Quote from: christulsa on April 16, 2020, 11:24:39 AM
Sincere questions: Do you believe that disciplines such as biochemistry or microbiology actually can observe and demonstrate the existence of such things as: proteins, lipids, carbohydrates, cell membrane protein channels, pathogenic cytotoxins? Not to mention viruses. How about cholorophyll, ribosomes, ATP, enzymes? Biochemical pathways in a baterium, human cell? If you were in a histology lab, and the histologist let you look in their microscope at erythrocytes from a cultured covid lab sample being destroyed, would you even believe that those erythrocytes exist, or would you think the histologist was lying to you?
Sincere question: you have a degree in this field and you
still don't understand what a pure isolate is and why obtaining such a thing is epistemologically absolutely necessary to identify the origin of novel genetic material and demonstrate causation of disease? Rather than just presuming the validity of your theory and making sense of the data based on it? It just shows how most scientists are parrots.
And no, viruses cannot be observed. Electron micrographs alleging to show viruses cannot be demonstrated to actually do so without purification of the alleged viral particles and their chemical identification. You have
no idea what it is those micrographs show, what their origin is, whether they are endogenous or and infection, and how they relate to alleged viral genetic material.
Quotea cultured covid lab sample
No such thing exists. Producing that would first require obtaining a tissue sample from a host and purifying the virus from it. That's never been done like it has for something like a human cell or bacteria. Ignoring for the moment that cell cultures used to grow "viruses" are already diseased and stressed, we can talk about causation of disease when a purified virus obtained from a culture reproduces the symptoms of the disease when injected into healthy hosts in a
controlled study, and we don't mean the sorts of non-controlled methods used on chick embryos for studying "influenza" which are comparable to Gajdusek drilling holes into monkeys brains and filling them with diseased monkeys' tissue to "prove" his theory of kuru when he couldn't get the results he wanted by feeding or injection. That you can't grasp
the problem boggles the mind.
You'd think that scientists would be the people who would know and understand the problems raised by philosophy of science during the 20th century, including those of Thomas Kuhn and his successors, and realise that the raw empirical data is open to multiple and irreconcilable paradigmatic "explanations". But no. Forget it when one is dealing with an entrenched paradigm.
How do you explain someone who came from this field rejecting the viral theory? Despite seeing the same data you do? Why can't it be accepted that he is operating rationally?
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9006Q6lNRs[/yt]
More than that, why are scientists so hostile to people who demand strict adherence to the actual principles and standards of empirical science?
Kreuzritter there seems to be problems with intravenous vitamin C therapy as well.
https://www.sciencealert.com/no-vitamin-drips-like-many-other-miracle-cures-do-not-work
QuoteThere's Something You Really Need to Know About IV Vitamin 'Shots'
Want to boost your immune system, reduce your physical signs of ageing, or cleanse your blood to get rid of toxins? Intravenous (IV) vitamin therapy, or vitamin drips, promise to help.
Some claim they can even benefit serious conditions like cancer, Parkinson's disease, the eye condition macular degeneration, the pain of fibromyalgia and depression.
Celebrities have promoted them on social media. The demand has led to alternative therapy lounges popping up around the world, including in Australia. Patients can kick back in comfy leather chairs while they're hooked up to IVs in the infusion lounge, watch Netflix and have some tea.
But do they work? Or are you just paying for really expensive urine? Let's look at what the science says.
What is IV vitamin therapy?
IV vitamin therapy administers vitamins and minerals directly into the bloodstream via a needle that goes directly into your vein. Fans of the therapy believe this enables you to obtain more nutrients as you avoid the digestion process.
Providers of these injections say they customise the formula of vitamins and minerals depending on the perceived needs of the patient.
Right now for example, many Australian lounges are offering drip "cocktails" containing immune boosting vitamins like vitamin C and zinc to help protect against the flu. Other popular therapy sessions come under names like "Energy Cocktail" and "Glow". One vitamin IV therapy session can take 30-90 minutes and will cost between AU$80 to $1,000 (US$55 to $700).
Does IV vitamin therapy work?
IV therapy itself is not new and has been used in the medical profession for decades. In hospitals, it is commonly used to hydrate patients and administer essential nutrients if there is an issue with gut absorption, or long-term difficulty eating or drinking due to surgery.
Single nutrient deficiencies like vitamin B12 or iron are also often treated in hospital with infusions under medical supervision.
But the "cocktails" IV vitamin therapy clinics create and administer are not supported by scientific evidence. There have been no clinical studies to show vitamin injections of this type offer any health benefit or are necessary for good health.
In fact, there are very few studies that have looked at their effectiveness at all.
There is one review on the use of the "Myers' cocktail" (a solution of magnesium, calcium, vitamin C and a number of B vitamins). But it just contains a collection of anecdotal evidence from singular case studies.
Another trial looked into the effectiveness of IV vitamin therapy in reducing symptoms of 34 people with the the chronic pain condition fibromyalgia. It found no significant differences between those who received the "Myers' cocktail" once a week for eight weeks and those who did not.
In fact, the authors noted a strong placebo effect. In other words, many people said their symptoms improved when they were only injected with a "dummy" cocktail.
Another study that examined IV vitamin use in fibromyalgia patients was missing a placebo group, involved just seven patients and showed only short-term improvement in symptoms. The only other published study examined IV vitamin therapy use for asthma. But that study was of even poorer quality.
What are the risks of IV vitamin therapy?
Even when it comes to vitamins and minerals, you can have too much of a good thing. For example, if you take in more of the fat soluble vitamin A than you need, your body stores it, risking damage to major organs, like the liver.
IV vitamin therapy "cocktails" also often contain significant levels of the water soluble vitamins C and B. These are processed by the kidneys and excreted into urine when the body cannot store any more. This makes for some very expensive urine.
There is also the risk of infection with IV vitamin therapy. Any time you have an IV line inserted, it creates a direct path into your bloodstream and bypasses your skin's defence mechanism against bacteria.
People with certain conditions like kidney disease or renal failure shouldn't have IV vitamin therapy because they cannot quickly remove certain minerals from the body. For these people, adding too much potassium could lead to a heart attack.
People with heart, kidney or blood pressure conditions should also avoid IV vitamin therapy as there is risk of fluid overload without consistent monitoring. The consequences of fluid overload in these patients can include heart failure, delayed wound healing, and impaired bowel function.
What's the bottom line?
For most of us, the quantities of vitamins and minerals needed for good health can be obtained by eating a healthy diet with a wide range of foods and food groups. Obtaining vitamins and minerals from your diet is much easier, cheaper, and safer.
Unless you have a medically diagnosed reason for getting a vitamin infusion and it was prescribed by your doctor, you are always better off obtaining vitamins and minerals through food.
Well isn't life interesting. I've never had such an educational opportunity to meet anyone so anti-science and ignorant of science as to suspend belief in basic biological facts like proteins, carbohydrates, metabolic pathways, viruses, or that microbiologists are culturing viruses every day. CULTURING them. Look it up buddy. And incidentally as an aside, I'm curious, where sir did you yourself receive your own medical and laboratory science training, or clinical experience? I suspect you have zero experience, and are trying to pontificate about a subject you know little about.
Quote from: christulsa on April 16, 2020, 07:03:25 PM
Well isn't life interesting. I've never had such an educational opportunity to meet anyone so anti-science and ignorant of science as to suspend belief in basic biological facts like proteins, carbohydrates, metabolic pathways, viruses, or that microbiologists are culturing viruses every day. CULTURING them. Look it up buddy. And incidentally as an aside, I'm curious, where sir did you yourself receive your own medical and laboratory science training, or clinical experience? I suspect you have zero experience, and are trying to pontificate about a subject you know little about.
I asked him the same a few weeks ago, before he got the one week ban. I still haven't got a reply.
Quote from: mikemac on April 16, 2020, 07:02:06 PM
But the "cocktails" IV vitamin therapy clinics create and administer are not supported by scientific evidence. There have been no clinical studies to show vitamin injections of this type offer any health benefit or are necessary for good health.
The issue under consideration here is its use in treatment of particular conditions, not regular administration for "good health".
QuoteIV vitamin therapy "cocktails" also often contain significant levels of the water soluble vitamins C and B. These are processed by the kidneys and excreted into urine when the body cannot store any more. This makes for some very expensive urine.
...
For most of us, the quantities of vitamins and minerals needed for good health can be obtained by eating a healthy diet with a wide range of foods and food groups. Obtaining vitamins and minerals from your diet is much easier, cheaper, and safer.
Unless you have a medically diagnosed reason for getting a vitamin infusion and it was prescribed by your doctor, you are always better off obtaining vitamins and minerals through food.
All this demonstrates is that the author didn't spend more than ten minutes selectively looking at the subject with the intention of dismissing it. Why are you wasting my time copying and pasting a tendentious article from someone who doesn't understand the difference in effect between oral and intravenous administration of vitamin C with regards to bioavilability, and who thinks "sufficient" quantities for clinical effects would be obtainable through dietary absorption from foods.
The administration of high-dose vitamin C is often considered as unnecessary or even alternative medicine. This does not do justice to the strong scientific base of the pleiotropic beneficial effects of high i. v. doses (not enteral!) as demonstrated in multiple preclinical and clinical studies [11]. Beyond simply preventing scurvy by the correction of vitamin C deficiency, supraphysiological vitamin C levels can exert very strong multifaceted effects. With enteral supplementation, maximally tolerated dosages (3–4 g/day) cannot achieve plasma levels of > 250 ?mol/l because of saturable absorption [12]. Intravenous vitamin C administration can generate much higher plasma levels, thus yielding more potent antioxidative effects. The underlying pathophysiological mechanisms have now been well elucidated (Fig. 3).https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-018-1996-y (https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-018-1996-y)
QuoteThere is also the risk of infection with IV vitamin therapy. Any time you have an IV line inserted, it creates a direct path into your bloodstream and bypasses your skin's defence mechanism against bacteria.
People with certain conditions like kidney disease or renal failure shouldn't have IV vitamin therapy because they cannot quickly remove certain minerals from the body. For these people, adding too much potassium could lead to a heart attack.
People with heart, kidney or blood pressure conditions should also avoid IV vitamin therapy as there is risk of fluid overload without consistent monitoring. The consequences of fluid overload in these patients can include heart failure, delayed wound healing, and impaired bowel function.
This is how he has to scrape the barrel to find some "danger". None of them is specific to vitamin C, none of them looks at the results of studies on its administration, and the last one concerns misuse of IV therapy.
Here's one from a metastudy of its use in cancer trials:
Overall, vitamin C has been shown to be safe in nearly all patient populations, alone and in combination with chemotherapies. The promising results support the need for randomized placebo-controlled trials such as the ongoing placebo-controlled trials of vitamin C and chemotherapy in prostate cancer.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6071214/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6071214/)
Quote from: christulsa on April 16, 2020, 07:03:25 PM
Well isn't life interesting. I've never had such an educational opportunity to meet anyone so anti-science and ignorant of science as to suspend belief in basic biological facts like proteins, carbohydrates, metabolic pathways,
Now you're lying. Nowhere have I stated or insinuated that proteins, carbohydrates and metabolic pathways do not exist. But thanks for exposing yourself to be the deceptive character you are, who can't help but invent stories about my beliefs to deflect from what I'm actually stating.
Also, I'm not "anti-science". To the contrary, I'm demanding scientific and logical rigour from virology where it doesn't exist. To call my demands and attendant skepticism "anti-science" because your theoretical explanation of the data cannot meet them is ludicrous. I'm anti- your junk science.
Quoteviruses, or that microbiologists are culturing viruses every day. CULTURING them. Look it up buddy.
And you still
don't understand the problem. Which is why you have not addressed the issue of producing a pure viral isolate. You can call it "culturing viruses" all day long, but when you have never purified one, you cannot demonstrate the origin of the substances which form your indirect means of allegedly detecting them in a sample, never mind that they, or the genome you've pieced together using PCR on unpurified samples, belong to a malicious pseudo-organism that infects a host and causes disease. Virology up until the early 50s, before the genetic paradigm took over, faced the same problem, unable to even decide what viruses are, and made demonstrably false assertions in its microbial and enzymatic theories of the nature of viruses; in particular, in trying to account for
how viruses cause disease, it repeatedly identified supposedly toxic enzymes which later turned out to be natural products of the human body. This is documented in Karlheinz Lüdtke's paper
Zur Geschichte der frühen Virusforschung from the Max Planck Institute for the History of Science.
QuoteAnd incidentally as an aside, I'm curious, where sir did you yourself receive your own medical and laboratory science training, or clinical experience? I suspect you have zero experience, and are trying to pontificate about a subject you know little about.
Enter the
ad hominem. How does it feel to be unable to defend your own field of study in the face of a simple epistemological issue that was never raised in your textbooks? Is it dawning on you that your "education" fundamentally consisted in learning to parrot information you'd been told is true?
Don't take my word for it. Here's an illustrative example of what is involved in so-called "isolation" of a virus.
QuotePurification of Adenovirus
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128002766000085 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128002766000085)
1.2 Features of the Milieu
Effective virus purification capitalizes on the differences between the physical properties of the adenovirus relative to the components of the mixture from which it is being isolated. The exact composition of the milieu varies with the cell culture process and, to a lesser extent, every batch. In general, the large-scale purification of adenovirus requires the isolation of the virus from infected cell lysate taken from a bioreactor. This mixture consists of a formulated medium sometimes containing bovine serum, and less frequently antifoaming agents, or anticlumping agents (pluronics). Significant amounts of additives, however, present difficult challenges for any recovery procedure. Efficient large-scale production requires high cell densities which in turn require high gas exchange rates. This can cause severe foaming and necessitate the addition of agents to control it. Other additives such as anticlumping agents and lipids adapt the media for large-scale cell culture. Cell lysis, necessary to release the adenovirus from the host cell, results in the additional release of DNA, protein, lipids, carbohydrates, and other cellular components. Culture conditions, media components, cell-derived contaminants, and additives may have a significant impact on downstream processing.
1.2.1 Culture Conditions
Adenoviruses are produced by infection of cell lines in culture with a viral seed stock. The particular cell line used requires a highly developed cell culture method to achieve maximum yield. Flat stock culture, although useful for small-scale work, is generally not sufficient for larger scale applications. Some of the cell lines used in flat stock culture have resisted attempts to adapt them to the suspension and serum-free conditions preferred for large-scale processes. A compromise is struck by the culture of attachment-dependent cells using microcarriers in a bioreactor. These microcarrier-based processes introduce yet another component that must be separated from the adenovirus. Similarly, if serum is utilized, it will be necessary to consider the effective removal of its components.
1.2.2 Construct-Induced Contaminants and Considerations
The viral construct may also contribute to the milieu as the viral DNA backbone may lead to the contribution of many more contaminants. For downstream purification, higher titers favor better recovery and cleaner preparations because recovery and purification are enrichment processes. Even with maximum productivity, however, adenoviral particles represent a small fraction of molecular entities produced by the end of the culture process. Therefore, factors affecting the end titer can also affect the process.
As one can see, this is anything but an "isolate", and recovering supposed viral proteins, RNA or DNA from it and linking them to an hypothesised object known as a virus a crapshoot built atop assumptions. Not only that, but they add all sorts of chemicals to these samples and then declare the hypothesised virus toxic when observing cell cultures die or administering it to hosts without controls and making them ill.
But the large, bolded statement is most illustrative. If that's indeed the case,
how do they know what an adenovirus particle is in the first place?
A sincere question to christulsa: do you understand the distinction between the phenomenological data of an experiment and the theoretical construct of a viruses through which you "explain" it? Nobody is questioning the existence of proteins, antigens, genes etc. or any of the phenomena which you associate with the existence of viruses as conceived by virology.
Some of you may have noticed I'm no longer posting the stats. That's because a few days ago I noticed that the numbers went crazy. Turns out that the governments changed the metrics for what constituted a COVID case and COVID death. Now here's the deal. The underlying data was never going to be correct, HOWEVER, if you keep it consistent, you can look at trends. And the trends were showing that we were past the peak. Then the U.S. dumped THOUSANDS of deaths into the data over a few days based on new metrics. The data is now worthless and we can't extract any trend data. From what I can tell there were 10,000 new deaths added which did not qualify under the old rules.
Fortunately they did this late in the game, and we already saw that the peak was past.
I suspect foul play. The libtards have now set up metrics such that they can ramp deaths anytime they want. I suspect a few weeks after Trump opens things up, we'll see such a ramp with the concomitant news reports of how Trump is killing babies.
Are you aware of the specifics of those new metrics?
Quote from: james03 on April 17, 2020, 07:54:06 AM
I suspect foul play. The libtards have now set up metrics such that they can ramp deaths anytime they want. I suspect a few weeks after Trump opens things up, we'll see such a ramp with the concomitant news reports of how Trump is killing babies.
Say it ain't so.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2F19uv95.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Quote from: james03 on April 17, 2020, 07:54:06 AM
Some of you may have noticed I'm no longer posting the stats. That's because a few days ago I noticed that the numbers went crazy. Turns out that the governments changed the metrics for what constituted a COVID case and COVID death.
This is why numbers of cases among different countries were never sensibly comparable. As I said weeks ago. And the reverse happened with SARS in Asia, where a change in the definition of "case" lead to the pandemic disappearing.
QuoteThe underlying data was never going to be correct, HOWEVER, if you keep it consistent, you can look at trends. And the trends were showing that we were past the peak.
Yes,
but one would need to know trends in testing to make any sense of them. Rates of change of "cases" could depend strongly on rates of change in testing. Scale up testing and you increase cases; scale it down and you "flatten the curve". Better would be to look at positives versus negatives out of totals tested, to see if it's "spreading", but your samples would need to be representative of a whole population.
This is just common sense. I have to assume epidemiologists know better and have even more sophisticated ways of properly analysing the data, but the suppliers of official data, news media and politicians don't seems to care.
Quote from: james03 on April 17, 2020, 07:54:06 AM
Some of you may have noticed I'm no longer posting the stats. That's because a few days ago I noticed that the numbers went crazy.
I'm observing this too. For example, a number of nursing homes are showing a large percentage of residents and staff testing positive, which is raising alarms about those individual nursing homes in the news, even though many of them started taking very strict precautions weeks ago. Yet, as soon as a nursing home starts showing a few positives, the health dept moves in and tests everyone. No surprise when they find a similar trend in most facilities who haven't been tested yet. The result being a continuous yo-yo effect of sound the alarm-later put it into perspective-then sound it again and so on. The politicians and media then interpret the unfolding data for the public causing panic. The daily psychodrama of it all.
After this change, the data is meaningless:
(https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/new-york-death-dump-600x380.jpg)
Note it looks like deaths peaked around April 10.
QuoteYes, but one would need to know trends in testing to make any sense of them.
My mistake. I was talking about deaths only. I quit forecasting "cases" awhile ago since it depended on who decides to get tested.
I wonder when Xavier will be along with his graphs? </sarcasm>
The Only Way This Ends: Herd Immunity
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/10/opinion/its-possible-flatten-curve-too-long/?et_rid=885031208&s_campaign=wklystoriesmissed:email
(The graphs can't be copied, or at least I don't know a way to do that.)
QuoteFor weeks, the most pressing policy challenge has been relieving the life-and-death pressure on our hospitals. But all that justifiable emphasis on flattening the curve may have created a dangerous illusion that we can get away with relatively small infection rates.
It's easy to forget that if a disease can't be contained — and it's too late for that in the COVID-19 pandemic — then there's only one possible ending to the story: We must collectively develop immunity to the disease. In lieu of a vaccine, that means most of us will need to be exposed to the virus, and some unknowably large number of us will die in the process.
Herd immunity got a bad rap last month, when Boris Johnson's government floated the strategy of allowing COVID-19 to rip through the British population quickly, letting the chips fall where they may. The idea was rightly dismissed as a Wall Street fever dream, a bargain in which we might have tried to trade the most vulnerable members of our society in order to save the stock portfolios of the most prosperous.
But the fact remains that herd immunity isn't merely a possible strategy. In the long run it's the only strategy. The question, then, is how to get there responsibly.
"The objective is to get the trajectory right," said Nadia Abuelezam, a Boston College epidemiologist. That trajectory is what guides public policy. And right now public policy needs to bake in the understanding that unless we plan on spending the year or more it'll take to widely distribute a vaccine sequestered in our homes without respite, we will need to immunize the state's population the hard way.
For instance, one of Lipsitch and Grad's findings is that the better we are at social distancing this spring, the worse the subsequent spikes become. In fact, a loose version of isolation that is less immediately effective might actually be preferable. Instead of trying to flatten the curve as much as possible now, Lipsitch and Grad's findings indicate that it would be preferable to have periods in which some of the population resumes normal social interactions followed by renewed suppression.
The only way this ends is probably mandatory vaccination. At which point testing will stop, as everyone would test positive anyway on their stupid antibody and PCR diagnostics. And with the end of testing one has the end of the "pandemic".
Quote from: james03 on April 17, 2020, 09:53:02 AM
After this change, the data is meaningless:
(https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/new-york-death-dump-600x380.jpg)
I noticed this while watching the amount of deaths in New York from this page. For about a week or so deaths in New York were averaging between 600 and 700 a day. Then about two or three days ago the amount of deaths in New York spiked to about 4,500 just for that one day for some reason. Now in the last couple of days they are back to just over 600 a day.
https://ncov2019.live/data
Quote from: mikemac on April 17, 2020, 03:00:13 PM
Quote from: james03 on April 17, 2020, 09:53:02 AM
After this change, the data is meaningless:
(https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/new-york-death-dump-600x380.jpg)
I noticed this while watching the amount of deaths in New York from this page. For about a week or so deaths in New York were averaging between 600 and 700 a day. Then about two or three days ago the amount of deaths in New York spiked to about 4,500 just for that one day for some reason. Now in the last couple of days they are back to just over 600 a day.
https://ncov2019.live/data
Sometimes there is a lag in reporting, so that deaths from a period of several days all get recorded on the same day. It looks like this might have happened over the Easter holiday. In France there have been what appeared to be huge spikes in deaths on certain days, because deaths that occurred in nursing homes (rather than hospitals) were at first not included in the totals reported, then they were added later.
Yeah, it must be something like that.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-doctor-death-certificates-latest-a9462796.html
Quote'I've never written so many death certificates': Is Sweden having second thoughts on lockdown?
'The data says we are heading for catastrophe, we are now part of an experiment without informed consent,' expert tells Heba Habib, reporting from Stockholm
4 days ago
People begin to question Sweden's 'low-scale' approach as Covid-19 cases increase
I've never written so many death certificates. I've never worked this many hours," says an exhausted Issa Yacoub, a doctor working in Sodersjukhuset, one of Stockholm's largest public hospitals.
He and his colleagues are becoming increasingly overwhelmed with the number of patients passing through their doors.
"Let's just work together, pray together for all the sick... for all the families who can't meet their sick relatives, for the healthcare staff, who are out fighting hard during this hard time."
But outside the hospital where Dr Yacoub works it is a very different picture. Sweden, in contrast with most of Europe, has not enforced a lockdown on its citizens. In the balmy Easter weather, people sit and soak in the spring sunshine.
"I'm proud that Sweden is allowing us to take responsibility ourselves instead of being under lockdown," says Therese Börjlind, a 35 year old accountant, rushing to a family gathering.
Despite the mounting concerns of experts both at home and abroad, Sweden continues what Anders Tegnell, the country's chief epidemiologist, has called a "low-scale" approach. He insists this "is much more sustainable" in the long run.
Primary schools, shops, restaurants and bars remain open and people are allowed to go out and exercise.
But Sweden's cases are rising. The country of some 10 million now has more than 10,000 cases and 887 deaths. Its total death toll is higher than that of all the other Nordic countries put together.
The government has said repeatedly that the main cornerstone of their strategy is to protect the elderly. Since the beginning of the crisis, they have been asked to stay home but despite these measures, the virus has spread to one-third of nursing homes in Stockholm, which has resulted in a spike in fatalities.
Prime minister Stefan Lofven recently admitted in an interview with daily Svenska Dagbladet that "Sweden has not succeeded in protecting it's elderly". Mr Lofven also warned citizens to prepare for possibly up to "thousands" of deaths.
Dr Carina King, an epidemiologist working at the Karolinska, says: "If Sweden's strategy is a choice, why view these deaths as inevitable and not preventable?"
"A lot of the strategy is based on cultural norms, the narrative that Swedes will follow the recommendations and trust the authorities. My concern is that with so many unknowns, any strategy that is not aiming to minimise the absolute number of infections is problematic."
King adds that it is very difficult to assess the science behind Sweden's strategy since "it has not been transparently presented".
"There are clear examples where the Swedish guidelines do not fall in line with either WHO recommendations or available empirical evidence. A good example of this is the recommendation that household contacts of suspected Covid-19 cases do not need to quarantine."
Dr Holger Rootzen, one of the earliest detractors of Sweden's policy and a professor of mathematical statistics at the University of Chalmers, says that Sweden will soon be overwhelmed unless more action in taken.
Time magazine recently interviewed the head doctor of a hospital in Stockholm who feared the current approach will "probably end in a historical massacre".
There is now increasing evidence that hospitals, especially in Stockholm which has been the city hit hardest, have had to make difficult decisions regarding which patients will be prioritised in the event of further hospital crowding.
We are now part of an experiment without informed consent
Cecilia Söderberg Naucler, Karolinska Institute
Karolinska hospital has issued guidelines to doctors indicating that patients 80 years old and above would not be admitted into intensive care units, nor those between 60 and 80 with pre-existing conditions.
The prime minister has proposed an emergency law for the rapid closure of schools, public areas and transportation if the situation worsens.
Epidemiologist Tegnell said at a press conference that he is "cautiously optimistic" and "hopeful", hoping that this is the "end of the beginning" of the crisis for Sweden. He said that when he talked with his counterparts in the UK, "they have not been critical of our methods since we have achieved similar results."
"In some countries, it has been done with legal means, while in Sweden we have done it more with voluntary measures," he added.
Dr Cecilia Soderberg Naucler, an expert in microbial pathogenesis at the Karolinska Institute, believes this trust is unfounded and will soon break.
"I'm a scientist, I only trust data and the data says we are heading for catastrophe. We are now part of an experiment without informed consent."
At the time this article was written, four days ago, it says that Sweden has had 887 covid-19 deaths. Today according to this web site Sweden now has had 1,333 deaths.
https://ncov2019.live/data
Sweden: 150 deaths per 1 Million
NY: 873 deaths per 1 Million
Sweden: most of the population concentrated in cities like Stockholm, with the rest in rural areas.
NY: most of the population concentrated in cities like NYC, with the rest in rural areas.
So lock downs accomplished..... ?
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 10:01:42 AM
Sweden: 150 deaths per 1 Million
NY: 873 deaths per 1 Million
Sweden: most of the population concentrated in cities like Stockholm, with the rest in rural areas.
NY: most of the population concentrated in cities like NYC, with the rest in rural areas.
So lock downs accomplished..... ?
James I posted the article to show that Sweden is having second thoughts on their laissez-faire herd immunity attitude towards covid-19. I don't think your opinion would matter to them.
Mike,
Relative to your last comment here and pertinent to the section of an article I posted yesterday, immunity will be at the cost of one or the other: herd exposure without a vaccine, or a vaccine. To the extent that the ruling powers believe they can enforce the hypothetical vaccine universally, that may protect most of the population and prevent deaths from that particular virus. However, the problem is that the vaccine is a minimum of 18 months away by optimistic estimates. The country has already suffered enormous economic loss which will take much longer to repair than it took to accomplish.
I'm sure you've been following the same news stories as we all have: Without histrionics, there is actual loss of life as well, and potentially in significant numbers, via various forms of lockdowns destroying businesses and creating instant poverty. Lockdowns modified or not, will continue to be implemented before the vaccine rolls out, and again even assuming over 90% of the population agrees to be inoculated.
One can argue with the numbers of the article I linked yesterday or not, or with some specific conclusions, but scientists would agree with the overall principle of the way immunity works without a vaccine / before a vaccine. Exposure, infection, and recovery among the survivors is the way immunity is built. We hear and read the sensationalist headlines about deaths and the vicious way this virus acts, but those are the minority of cases. Eighty percent of KNOWN, recorded cases do not reach that level of dread and death. Then there are apparently huge numbers of as-still-unrecorded, clearly non-critical cases that are apparently awash in certain communities, including here:
https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Santa-Clara-antibody-test-coronavirus-results-case-15208216.php
And by the way, the above story is not the first time this has been raised at all. There have been many indications of large-scale acquisition of the virus far exceeding previous knowledge of it because it manifests differently in different individuals, and the factors relating to its danger are underlying health conditions, in this order:
obesity
hypertension
diabetes
cardiovascular disease
COPD
smoking/vaping
asthma
(Note that this list is a correction of previously assumed risks and partly explains the very, very large African-American percentage of deaths relative to that population. Compounding those factors is greater public exposure of that segment, due to occupations. Thus, numbers in Detroit, Louisiana, and NYC Metro.)
How do colds work in the human life span? The reason that children get so many colds is that they have not yet been exposed. They continue to be exposed to new coronaviruses (cold viruses are in the family of coronaviruses), but they won't be getting again the same colds. Do we panic? No. Every parent understands this is the normal biological process of exposure-infection-immunity.
The abiding scientific principle in the article is that artificially restricting exposure of the general population (not merely the most vulnerable, such as people with the above conditions, combined with advanced age that weakens immunity) is that such restrictions delay inevitable herd immunity. So "flattening curves" now, under sheltered conditions, will result in spikes of that same general population once shelters are abandoned. Better to expose the less vulnerable, healthier members so that their infections will build up antibodies to the level of 50% for the herd.
It's also important to modify the scandalously sloppy reporting of deaths by the MSM, in failing to account for underlying health conditions for those who are not elderly. This scientific article discusses the influence of drug use on Covid outcomes. (The under-50 segment is the segment of highest drug use.) The most relevant portion here:
Quote"Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is causing untold challenges to health care and wider social structures. Among the vulnerable populations are persons who smoke or vape, use opioids, or have a substance use disorder (SUD). Because of direct challenges to respiratory health, those with SUD may be especially susceptible to infection by the virus that causes COVID-19 and associated complications. And because of impediments to delivering care to this population, persons with SUD who develop COVID-19 may find it harder to get care. Those in recovery will also be uniquely challenged by social distancing measures.
Risk for severe COVID-19 and death escalates with older age but is also concentrated among those who are immunocompromised or have underlying health conditions, including diabetes, cancer, and heart and respiratory diseases. Many of the latter arise from smoking and thus may increase risk for death and illness among smokers (tobacco or cannabis). Data from the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention have suggested that COVID-19 has a case fatality rate of 6.3% for individuals with chronic respiratory disease, compared with 2.3% overall (1).
Co-morbid chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, cardiovascular disease, and other respiratory diseases, which are more frequent among chronic smokers and persons with other SUDs, have been shown to worsen prognosis with other coronaviruses, including those causing severe acute respiratory syndrome and Middle East respiratory syndrome (2).
Persons whose lungs may be compromised from vaping nicotine or tetrahydrocannabinol (or even just flavorings) may also be at risk. The highly publicized lung illnesses from vaping, including "popcorn lung" and e-cigarette or vaping product use–associated lung injury, alert us to the potential for lung injury from vaping, which is on the rise especially in young persons. Preclinical studies show that e-cigarette aerosols can damage lung tissue, cause inflammation, and diminish the lungs' ability to respond to infection (3).
Compromised lung function from COVID-19 could also put at risk those who have opioid use disorder (OUD) or methamphetamine and other psychostimulant use disorders. Chronic respiratory disease increases risk for fatal overdose in those who use opioids therapeutically (4). In addition, slowed breathing due to opioids causes hypoxemia, which can lead to cardiac, pulmonary, and brain complications (5) and, if severe, can result in overdoses and death. At least 2 million persons in the United States have OUD, and more than 10 million misuse opioids; these individuals may be at increased risk for the most adverse consequences of COVID-19. Methamphetamine is a highly toxic drug that causes pulmonary damage, pulmonary hypertension, and cardiomyopathy (6), and its use has markedly increased in the United States; clinicians should be alert to the possibility of increased risk for adverse COVID-19 outcomes in methamphetamine users."
https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764313/collision-covid-19-addiction-epidemics
Know a lot of elderly meth users and vapers? No, I don't either.
My point is that it is just another scare tactic that the MSM is using by implying that fatality and/or very serious complications and permanent consequences are equally probable for every person who gets infected. NO. Two people who acquire the identical cell type of the same cancer, discovered at the same stage, may have entirely different outcomes, depending on treatment, other health factors, and personal response to the disease. Those variations make for different probabilities of survival for the two patients. Same for other diseases, including this one.
Example, my apt. manager who was released from the ICU 10 days ago: He delayed getting treatment, for 2 weeks, he had refused protection as an RN before getting infected, and he lives a somewhat high-risk lifestyle. The fact that he got the disease does not mean that other people in their 30's are "more likely" or even "as likely" to get the disease, let alone to end up in the ICU. In his case, age was an accident not material to his infection. There have been other youngish people in the news local to me who
similarly delayed treatment or
were casual about their own exposure, and/or
received poor medical treatment and advice upon presenting, and/or
had underlying health or behavioral conditions,
though young
Quote from: mikemac on April 18, 2020, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 10:01:42 AM
Sweden: 150 deaths per 1 Million
NY: 873 deaths per 1 Million
Sweden: most of the population concentrated in cities like Stockholm, with the rest in rural areas.
NY: most of the population concentrated in cities like NYC, with the rest in rural areas.
So lock downs accomplished..... ?
James I posted the article to show that Sweden is having second thoughts on their laissez-faire herd immunity attitude towards covid-19. I don't think your opinion would matter to them.
I don't think your media propaganda piece matters to reality. If some doctor is writing more death certificates than usual, it's because people are flocking to hospitals where they usually would not;
it's demonstrably not because more people are dying than ever before. Unless he just started working a year ago.
QuoteAt the time this article was written, four days ago, it says that Sweden has had 887 covid-19 deaths. Today according to this web site Sweden now has had 1,333 deaths.
https://ncov2019.live/data
Tell us again what you mean by "COVID-19 death" and how such are being determined. Or are you incapable of doing that?
Quote from: Kreuzritter on April 18, 2020, 12:31:17 PM
Quote from: mikemac on April 18, 2020, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 10:01:42 AM
Sweden: 150 deaths per 1 Million
NY: 873 deaths per 1 Million
Sweden: most of the population concentrated in cities like Stockholm, with the rest in rural areas.
NY: most of the population concentrated in cities like NYC, with the rest in rural areas.
So lock downs accomplished..... ?
James I posted the article to show that Sweden is having second thoughts on their laissez-faire herd immunity attitude towards covid-19. I don't think your opinion would matter to them.
I don't think your media propaganda piece matters to reality. If some doctor is writing more death certificates than usual, it's because people are flocking to hospitals where they usually would not; it's demonstrably not because more people are dying than ever before. Unless he just started working a year ago.
QuoteAt the time this article was written, four days ago, it says that Sweden has had 887 covid-19 deaths. Today according to this web site Sweden now has had 1,333 deaths.
https://ncov2019.live/data
Tell us again what you mean by "COVID-19 death" and how such are being determined. Or are you incapable of doing that?
Reported.
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/covid-19-virus-accidentally-leaked-by-an-intern-at-wuhan-lab-suggests-us-media-11587153239725.html
"US President Donald Trump on Wednesday acknowledged Fox News report that the novel coronavirus (nCoV) may have been accidentally leaked by an intern working at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China.
The Fox News in an exclusive report based on unnamed sources has claimed that though the virus is a naturally occurring strain among bats and not a bioweapon, but it was being studied in Wuhan laboratory. The initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, the news channel said, adding that the "patient zero" worked at the laboratory. The lab employee was accidentally infected before spreading the disease among the common people outside the lab in Wuhan city.
The Wuhan wet market initially identified as the place of origin, Fox News said, never sold bats. However, China blamed the wet market to deflect blame from the laboratory, the report said."
Miriam I'll say it again. I think herd immunity regarding covid-19 is just nonsense. Over the last couple of weeks I've read a hand full of articles that said people can get covid-19 more than once. The last article that I read about this was regarding 91 people in South Korea that had recovered from covid-19, yet got it again the second time. So if this is the case then we can't build up immunity to covid-19.
In Canada a few provinces are already talking about relaxing some of the restrictions. Not yet but possibly middle May or so. And relaxing the restrictions will be gradual. We are seeing results from social distancing. Note they are not saying that we have to wait for a vaccine before we start to relax some of the restrictions.
I think these lockdown protests are crazy. It's too early to lift the lockdowns. They think herd immunity will work. But it's like they are willing to start the so called zombie apocalypse.
Quote from: mikemac on April 18, 2020, 02:20:15 PM
Miriam I'll say it again. I think herd immunity regarding covid-19 is just nonsense. Over the last couple of weeks I've read a hand full of articles that said people can get covid-19 more than once. The last article that I read about this was regarding 91 people in South Korea that had recovered from covid-19, yet got it again the second time. So if this is the case then we can't build up immunity to covid-19.
In Canada a few provinces are already talking about relaxing some of the restrictions. Not yet but possibly middle May or so. And relaxing the restrictions will be gradual. We are seeing results from social distancing. Note they are not saying that we have to wait for a vaccine before we start to relax some of the restrictions.
I think these lockdown protests are crazy. It's too early to lift the lockdowns. They think herd immunity will work. But it's like they are willing to start the so called zombie apocalypse.
Mike, I read an article that said the 1st death in Co Offaly Ireland was a elderly gentleman who had no underlying conditions and then I read a facebook post by his granddaughter who said he had underlying conditions!!
Micemac, reports as a whole that I've read indicate that while we don't know how long immunity will last, and some may not develop immunity at all once sick the first time, most are developing immunity that should last a while. Though precautions still have to take place. Tests for immunity are being rolled out that are cheap. I plan on getting one for good measure, having tested positive and just ended my quarantine.
The way I see it, since both quarantining and herd immunity have been shown in the history of pandemics to be essential, it comes down to when to ease up on isolation to see if the curve remains flat. I tend to think the data shows corona isn't anywhere as virulent and dangerous to the general population as the media is telling us, that herd immunity will be the primary answer to the problem at some point. A vaccine may be indicated for medical workers, especially those working in nursing homes, and for the elderly and those most at risk.
The bottom line imo, we need a two-pronged approach. To encourage experimental periods easing lockdown, returning families and businesses to normal life ASAP, and then studying the results. BUT at the same time taking strict steps in medical facilities, and when interacting with old people with serious risk factors. But so far it's all irrational, dysfunctional panic. Time to change the narrative.
Quote from: Xavier on April 18, 2020, 02:00:10 PM
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/covid-19-virus-accidentally-leaked-by-an-intern-at-wuhan-lab-suggests-us-media-11587153239725.html
"US President Donald Trump on Wednesday acknowledged Fox News report that the novel coronavirus (nCoV) may have been accidentally leaked by an intern working at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China.
The Fox News in an exclusive report based on unnamed sources has claimed that though the virus is a naturally occurring strain among bats and not a bioweapon, but it was being studied in Wuhan laboratory. The initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, the news channel said, adding that the "patient zero" worked at the laboratory. The lab employee was accidentally infected before spreading the disease among the common people outside the lab in Wuhan city.
The Wuhan wet market initially identified as the place of origin, Fox News said, never sold bats. However, China blamed the wet market to deflect blame from the laboratory, the report said."
Yeah LifeSiteNews says in this article that the Chinese Communist Party "disappeared" a Chinese research paper that traced COVID-19 to the China biolab in Wuhan.
'Disappeared' Chinese research paper traced COVID-19 to China biolab in Wuhan
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/disappeared-chinese-research-paper-traced-covid-19-to-china-biolab-in-wuhan
But LifeSiteNews found the research paper with the Wayback Machine and posted it in a PDF. Both the link to the Wayback Machine and the PDF are in the article above and linked below.
Wayback Machine link
https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus
PDF
https://www.lifesitenews.com/images/pdfs/The_Possible_Origins_of_the_2019-nCoV_coronavirus.pdf
-----------------------------------------
Also;
Evidence from Wuhan's morgues, crematoriums suggests COVID-19 deaths 20 times higher than official count
Chinese government data for Wuhan show that 2,535 people died and 50,006 were infected, but realistic numbers are 50,000 dead and 2.5 million infected.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/evidence-from-wuhans-morgues-crematoriums-suggests-covid-19-deaths-20-times-higher-than-official-count
#ChinaLiedAndPeopleDied
Quote from: mikemac on April 18, 2020, 02:20:15 PM
They think herd immunity will work.
Eventually, that's how the virus will be addressed in the long run, coupled with vaccination.
Countries can't be on a permanent lock-down.
QuoteI think herd immunity regarding covid-19 is just nonsense.
Then why are you talking about vaccines? Vaccines are just a way to artificially increase herd immunity.
QuoteI tend to think the data shows corona isn't anywhere as virulent and dangerous to the general population as the media is telling us
What about your own situation? You probably would not have known you had it except you got tested due to working in the medical industry. So imagine all the people who got it like you who didn't even know it.
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 05:22:20 PM
QuoteI tend to think the data shows corona isn't anywhere as virulent and dangerous to the general population as the media is telling us
What about your own situation? You probably would not have known you had it except you got tested due to working in the medical industry. So imagine all the people who got it like you who didn't even know it.
Exactly, I was somewhat surprised at first to test positive being asymptomatic, but one of the benefits of being stuck inside my house the last two weeks (today we were able to finally leave, thank God, what joy leaving the house) was I read a lot, including reports of testing the general population finding a much bigger % of positive asymptomatic people than has been suggested. So there's the initial relief that maybe those new findings mean there is far less cause for a global lockdown, daily panic, and living like Will Smith in I am Legend (a good movie to watch right now!). To me the way the media has reported the numbers has been either grossly incompetent or downright mass deception. It is as if most think they or society at large are at serious risk of getting corona and dying if they leave their house.
But then what sets in is the question, could this virus be much more contagious than previously estimated, what was it 2-3 x more so than flu? And what implications does that have for raising the risk for the elderly. What I've experienced at work on the ground level is downright alarming. All I can say is this thing really spreads quick in nursing homes, which reports indicate are the #1 communities at risk. AND that this thing IS deadly for this population, striking quick. Not a mere Spring cleansing of the body. So in my shoes the pandemic is still alarming and very real. Going back to work next week, I expect to be in PPE from head to toe, and treating some patients recovering from covid. Will share here generalities of that experience.
What I'd urge people to do is make sure family and friends most at risk—over 60, with chronic diseases—stay at home and take all the precautions for themselves, family, and visitors, eat well, and take the necessary vitamins/minerals, especially until this situation gets better.
My conclusion for now: safeguard the old, but end the lockdown ASAP to prevent socioeconomic collapse.
You on any kind of vitamin stack?
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 05:22:20 PM
QuoteI think herd immunity regarding covid-19 is just nonsense.
Then why are you talking about vaccines? Vaccines are just a way to artificially increase herd immunity.
I`m not talking about vaccines. In fact I would never take a vaccine for covid-19.
Quote from: christulsa on April 18, 2020, 09:03:40 PM
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 05:22:20 PM
QuoteI tend to think the data shows corona isn't anywhere as virulent and dangerous to the general population as the media is telling us
What about your own situation? You probably would not have known you had it except you got tested due to working in the medical industry. So imagine all the people who got it like you who didn't even know it.
.
What I'd urge people to do is make sure family and friends most at risk—over 60, with chronic diseases—stay at home and take all the precautions for themselves, family, and visitors, eat well, and take the necessary vitamins/minerals, especially until this situation gets better.
My conclusion for now: safeguard the old, but end the lockdown ASAP to prevent socioeconomic collapse.
this is has been my position now since I saw locally that there are no signs of a dangerous pandemic, just a dangerous virus for those at risk.
Quote from: mikemac on April 18, 2020, 11:34:53 PM
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 05:22:20 PM
QuoteI think herd immunity regarding covid-19 is just nonsense.
Then why are you talking about vaccines? Vaccines are just a way to artificially increase herd immunity.
I`m not talking about vaccines. In fact I would never take a vaccine for covid-19.
But Mike, the herd immunity is all the medical community talk about in relation to Vaccines, the guilt trip they lay on you for not vaccinating and protecting the herd and yet when it came to Covid 19 all of a sudden when its obvious that 80% survive the virus with little or no symptoms, the herd immunity is not viable.!! Its the flip flop to suit the agenda. They are dismissing the herd immunity idea because humans can develop this on their own without vaccines so therefore lets trash the idea. Wait until you see, the 'herd' idea will be in full use next year when it comes to the vaccines!!
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 11:02:12 PM
You on any kind of vitamin stack?
I know you didn't ask me, but I think it is a good idea to boost one's immune system, covid-19 or not. Vitamins are best derived from food, but we know that is not always possible. I try to eat well and usually only take a Vit B every day, which, like Vit C is not stored in the body, so needs to be replenished on a daily basis. I take Vit C periodically, depending on the season, and certain other supplements only as needed, but I have re-introduced Vit C now and am also taking a course of echinacea tincture (non-alcohol based). Not because I feel threatened by anything, but because I have a mother in a nursing home, whom I am currently not allowed to visit, but hope to at some stage, hence the need to stay completely sniffle free.
https://draxe.com/nutrition/echinacea-benefits/
Zinc also boosts the immune system, found in oysters, red meat, poultry, cashews, etc. I think one should test to see if they are zinc deficient before supplementing. Apparently, approximately 25% of the world are supposed to be. I have taken zinc supplements before, but am not doing so at the moment.
Garlic is also a wonderful immune booster and fortunately for me I love it and eat it most days. Yes, I do have few really close friends :D?
The clip at the bottom of the post, which is interesting in many other respects, recommends Vits A, D and C for immune health around 14min. He particularly talks about i/v Vit C in high doses for those who are very ill, which Kreuz was advocating. I try to get sufficient Vit D from adequate sun exposure and because a daily dose of sun always makes me feel well. Obviously in winter this is much more difficult, but Vit D is stored in the body, so together with eating foods that contain Vit D (salmon, tuna, mushrooms, egg yolks, etc) I don't think I need to supplement. I have also not yet thought it necessary to supplement with Vit A in the hope I am getting sufficient from my food, which is organic as much as possible. Some sources of Vit A are: eggs, meat, cheese, liver, fish oil, cream, kidneys, apricots, carrot, pumpkin, sweet potatoes.
I am generally healthy and active, but suffer from sinus, which I think is allergy induced, caused by the fact I work in an air-conditioned office with artificial lighting. I can smell the dust. I find drinking 2 tsps apple cider vinegar (raw with the mother) in hot water, sometimes with raw honey, sometimes not, a few times a day, helps this significantly, together with promoting restful sleep. I also flush with colloidal silver periodically. I don't get colds much at all, but if I do, they are gone in a couple of days. I have had the flu about 3 times in the past twenty five years, probably longer, but can always pin point it to occurring during and/or after a stressful time, when I was not eating or sleeping properly. Stress seriously depletes the immune system. I have never had a flu vaccine. Sufficient rest, exercise, fresh air and a good supply of water are also needed for a healthy immune system.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO32jgE8qsE[/yt]
I literally just found that guy Aeternitus: Breaking news on Fauci, he gave 3.7 million dollars to the Wuhan lab in 2015!!
https://www.bitchute.com/video/BpwndRgw-kI/
Quote from: james03 on April 18, 2020, 11:02:12 PM
You on any kind of vitamin stack?
Yes.
Have you given up doing podcasts?
Quote from: christulsa on April 18, 2020, 09:03:40 PM
Exactly, I was somewhat surprised at first to test positive being asymptomatic,
That a man with an academic background in these sciences and virology is surprised at testing positive on some antibody or PCR tests run by doctors shows how little thought goes into how these tests work and what they actually measure.
Do you realise, for example, that if your PCR testers had just chosen a higher cutoff for the Cq value, which is not really comparable between different samples anyway, you'd have come back negative?
Professor Stephen Bustin is a world-renowned expert on quantitative PCR[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkSps-RSNMo[/yt]
And surely you also realise that the probability of a false positive is dependent both on the accuracy of the test
and the actual infection rate in the population? Which is why the the Chinese statistical analysis had, in the lowest estimate, around a 40% probability of an individual receiving a false positive?
A little bit of math for people to understand just how unreliable these diagnostic tests are in principle:
QuoteSuppose that 1 in 100 people has a certain disease. A test for the disease has 90% accuracy, which here means that 90% of those who do have the disease will test positively (suggesting that they have the disease) and 10% of those who do not have the disease will test positively.
One person is chosen at random from the population, tested for the disease, and the test gives a positive result. That person might be inclined to think: "I have been tested and found 'positive' by a test which is accurate 90% of the time, so there is a 90% chance that I have the disease." However, it is much more likely that the randomly chosen person does not have the disease and the test is in error than that he or she does have the disease and the test is correct. Indeed, we can reason as follows, using 'K.' to signify 'thousand' (1000, not 1024) and 'NC for 'million'.
Let us suppose that there are 1M people in the population. Suppose that they are all tested. Then, amongst the 1M people, about 1M x 99% = 990K would not have the disease, of whom about (1M x 99%) x 10% = 99K would test positively; and 1M x 1% = 10K would have the disease, of whom about (1M x 1%) x 90% = 9K would test positively. So, a total of about 99K + 9K = 108K would test positively, of whom only 9K would actually have the disease. In other words, only 1/12 of those who would test positively actually have the disease.
Yep. Now you can also understand why using these tests to estimate the number of infections in a population is a logically circular crapshoot.
Yes, the test data is junk. Either people are dying at a greater rate than normal or not - that's what matters.
The above is the same math used by Taleb in Fooled By Randomness. However, I also note he is one of the loudest proponents for taking strict hygienic measures against the virus.
QuoteYes.
C'mon lad, give us the list.
QuoteHave you given up doing podcasts?
About a year now. I'm thinking of coming out of retirement to help convert some atheists. Unfortunately my main computer went out and I'm too lazy to spend a day getting it back up-and-running. I'd rather go for a motorcycle ride.
Quote from: james03 on April 19, 2020, 08:42:06 AM
QuoteYes.
C'mon lad, give us the list.
It's too long, and like you I am too lazy. :P
From: https://www.medias-presse.info/coronavirus-et-projet-id2020-bill-gates-recommande-un-vaccin-avec-implant/119836/
"Coronavirus and project ID2020 : Bill Gates recommends a vaccine with implant
in Bioethics, Health and Science - by Pierre-Alain Depauw - 17 April 2020
A recurring theme among conspiracy theorists is that the elite are just waiting for the right moment to deploy their "mark of the beast" technology to remotely identify and control every human being on the planet, thus sealing their plans for the effective establishment of a global government capable of monitoring each and every one of us.
In the book of Revelation [13:16-17], there is a passage which does not fail to catch our attention: "And to every man, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, it places a mark on his right hand, or on his forehead: and let no man buy or sell, except he have the mark...".
Now Microsoft founder Bill Gates, who has been warning of a global pandemic for years, is also offering these controversial tagging technologies for all of us.
In September 2019, just three months before the first appearance of the coronavirus in China, ID2020, a San Francisco-based biometric company that includes Microsoft among its founding members, quietly announced that it was undertaking a new project that involves "exploring multiple biometrics". identification technologies for infants" that is based on "infant immunization".
Researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) have developed what is essentially a high-tech "tattoo" that stores data in an invisible implant under the skin. The "brand" would be delivered with a vaccine, probably administered by Gavi, the global immunization agency that is also part of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.
"Researchers have shown that their new implant, which consists of nanocrystals called quantum dots... emits a near-infrared signal that can be detected by a specially equipped smartphone," MIT News reported.
The study was funded primarily by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
With prolonged confinement becoming increasingly difficult to tolerate and an avalanche of information designed to maintain fear among the population, it is likely that a significant portion of the population will accept a vaccination containing an implant if the propaganda promises them that it is for their own good and that it is the key to returning to a "normal" life. And from there, it takes little imagination to see this same follow-up nanotechnology applied on a large scale in the global economy. In particular, it could be used to eliminate the use of cash.
These fears became more important with Bill Gates' interview on CBS This Morning. Gates said that crowd gatherings could be banned until a large-scale immunization program is adopted. [The interview can be viewed in full here: https://www.cbsnews.com/video/extended-interview-bill-gates-on-coronavirus-pandemic/ ].
According to Gates, anything that could be defined as a "mass gathering" - from spectators crammed into a stadium for a sporting event to demonstrators on the street - would be considered an act of civil disobedience without a vaccine.
All this seems sheer madness when one remembers that there are other options for defeating the coronavirus than a mandatory global vaccination regime.
Last month in the United States, Dr Anthony Fauci, considered an expert on allergies and infectious diseases, told a Senate subcommittee that more than 80% of people infected with coronavirus "recover spontaneously" without any medical intervention. This raises the question of why containment has been imposed on almost everyone in most parts of the world instead of limiting it to the sick. Meanwhile, the drug hydroxychloroquine, which has been denigrated in the media despite being named as the most effective treatment for coronaviruses among doctors in a major survey, is beginning to prove its worth in different parts of the world.
The big question at this stage, therefore, is which remedy will prevail - a hastily developed vaccine that could actually worsen the effects of the disease in those who contract it, or the cheap and already proven effective drug hydroxychloroquine."
Just how evil is Bill Gates I wonder, beyond his diabolical promotion of the culture of death? Do we know if he is a member of a secret occult organization trying to usher in the reign of the anti-Christ, or anything along those lines? Many view him as an anti-Christ kind of figure, but I haven't looked into it. :shrug:
Quote from: christulsa on April 19, 2020, 10:07:35 AM
Just how evil is Bill Gates I wonder, beyond his diabolical promotion of the culture of death? Do we know if he is a member of a secret occult organization trying to usher in the reign of the anti-Christ, or anything along those lines? Many view him as an anti-Christ kind of figure, but I haven't looked into it. :shrug:
The culture of death is enough for me. However Gates met with Epstein many times. Here is a picture of Gates Snr with key people of the NWO taken in 2001, Fauci is in there too.
Ok Boss Hog, I'm feeling less lazy. Here's my daily supplements.
Multivitamin
Multi-mineral
Vit C
Zinc
Selenium
Vit B12
Calcium Magnesium
Fiber powder
Echinacea (when under the weather)
There so many small voices alarmed at what is going on but we all need to combine into one large force to combat this horrific evil he wants to impose. Who are the largest groups going around - Bobby Kennedy Jr is one that comes to mind, Dr Shiva another. Traditional Catholics, Evangelical Christians and Truthers/Conspiracy Theorists will largely be strongly opposed to what is going on. We all need to combine as this guy has shut down the world economy over what seems a flu and has tremendous influence as to what is shown on msm, being taken off Facebook and Twitter. He wants to poison us, our children and loved ones.
See the slip up from Birx here
https://www.facebook.com/HealthNutNews/videos/891932124563980/?vh=e&d=n
In fact so much of what Gates has been doing its almost not hidden like we are having it rubbed in our faces. Like Fauci saying something really big will hit during the Trump presidency. Gates talking two years ago about a pandemic that could kill 30 million. Gates with a smile on his face saying up to 700000 could be hurt by a corona virus vaccine. Telling Uncle Tony (Raphael Nadals uncle) in February that the corona virus is about to get "tricky". Gates has been banging on about a coming pandemic for 10 years. This was all planned - have they panicked and gone too early and revealed too much. I hope so.
What do you get for pretending the danger's not real
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel
What a surprise ...
https://genius.com/Pink-floyd-sheep-lyrics
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-oJt_5JvV4[/yt]
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/nobel-winning-scientist-claims-covid-19-virus-was-man-made-in-wuhan-lab-11587303649821.html
"Nobel winning scientist claims Covid-19 virus was man-made in Wuhan lab
1 min read . Updated: 19 Apr 2020, 07:15 PM IST
IANS
France's Luc Montagnier says SARS-CoV-2 virus was the result of an attempt to manufacture a vaccine against the AIDS virus
'The Wuhan city laboratory has specialized in these coronaviruses since the early 2000s. They have expertise in this area,' he told a French news channel
London: French Nobel prize winning scientist Luc Montagnier has sparked a fresh controversy by claiming that the SARS-CoV-2 virus came from a lab, and is the result of an attempt to manufacture a vaccine against the AIDS virus.
In an interview given to French CNews channel and during a podcast by Pourquoi Docteur, professor Montagnier who co-discovered HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) claimed the presence of elements of HIV in the genome of the coronavirus and even elements of the "germ of malaria" are highly suspect, according to a report in Asia Times.
"The Wuhan city laboratory has specialized in these coronaviruses since the early 2000s. They have expertise in this area," he was quoted as saying.
The theory that Covid-19 virus originated in the lab is making rounds for quite some time.
US President Donald Trump last week acknowledged Fox News report that the novel coronavirus may have been accidentally leaked by an intern working at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China.
The Fox News, in an exclusive report, based on unnamed sources has claimed that though the virus is a naturally occurring strain among bats and not a bioweapon, but it was being studied in Wuhan laboratory.
The initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, the news channel said, adding that the "patient zero" worked at the laboratory. The lab employee was accidentally infected before spreading the disease among the common people outside the lab in Wuhan city.
Professor Montagnier was awarded the 2008 Nobel Prize in Medicine for the identification of AIDS virus, with his colleague professor Françoise Barre-Sinoussi.
His fresh claim on coronavirus, however, received criticism from scientists, including his colleagues.
"Just in case you don't know. Dr Montagnier has been rolling downhill incredibly fast in the last few years. From baselessly defending homeopathy to becoming an antivaxxer. Whatever he says, just don't believe him," tweeted Juan Carlos Gabaldon.
As per a recent Washington Post, two years ago, the US embassy officials in China raised concerns about the insufficient biosafety at the Chinese government's Wuhan Institute of Virology where deadly viruses and infectious diseases are studied.
Though the institute, located quite close to the Wuhan wet market, is China's first biosafety level IV lab, the US state department had warned in 2018 about "serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory""
So let me get this straight. Obama illegally gave $ to Fauci to fund corona virus research in Wuhan??? The same Fauci associated with the Gates Foundation, both trying to lead the charge to solve the corona crisis????? The same Wuhan lab that "accidentally" let the virus escape?????? And they are so shameless as to not care that the media will sooner or later expose them ????????? That key power players behind the lockdown/socialist program are the ones LIKELY responsible for the outbreak in the first place????????????
https://nationalfile.com/faucis-niaid-funded-wuhan-lab-scientists-to-research-bat-coronavirus/
Well the test of Trump's presidency is going to be if he can deliver a quick and decisive investigation of these devil's conspiracy, exposing it, punishing it, ending it, all before an economic collapse. It's going to take a miracle, and a lot of prayers. But considering Trump's disposition so far in handing the corona situation (fair at best, imo), it seems like a long shot. The political fallout of this is going to be huge, if true.
https://www.sfgate.com/science/article/Hospital-analysis-Nearly-half-of-COVID-19-15213495.php
Americans' addiction to greasy junk food and heaping meal portions, disparities in access to healthy food and sitting for hours on end have made us especially vulnerable to COVID-19.
The United States has more obese people than any other major nation, and obesity has been linked to chronic, preventable illnesses such as heart disease, stroke and type 2 diabetes. Any of those conditions can lead to a more severe outcome of COVID-19.
A recent analysis of hospital network data found that 48 percent of patients being treated for the disease were obese.
The COVID-NET report, published on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website, looked at 1,482 patients in 99 counties nationwide, including Alameda, Contra Costa and San Francisco counties in California. The data were collected between March 1 and March 31.
The data showed that 9 of 10 patients had an underlying medical condition, including:
—Hypertension: 49.7%
—Diabetes: 28.3%
—Chronic lung disease: 34.6%
—Cardiovascular disease: 27.8%
—Obesity: 48.3%
While the report does not confirm obesity as an independent risk factor, when it occurs in conjunction with an underlying medical condition it can aggravate the severity of COVID-19.
For patients aged 18 to 49, obesity was the most prevalent underlying condition, according to the study. Nearly 60 percent of those hospitalized were obese.
The CDC defines an obese person as one with a body mass index of 30 kg/m2 or more, for example, a 6-foot-tall male who weighs 217 pounds. (Exception: Muscular physiques may have high BMIs without being obese or even overweight.)
Remembering that 40% of American adults are obese. Also, 10% are diagnosed diabetic, and 35% are prediabetic. These people are just the current batch of a group whose members are in hospital or on their way to hospital at any given time. Their bodies are the biological equivalent of the Hobbesian war of all against all, at war against themselves. Walking blobs of poison and pus. I bet if you tested for all sorts of antibodies and so-called viral genes they'd come up positive.
Quote from: Xavier on April 20, 2020, 10:00:35 AM
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/nobel-winning-scientist-claims-covid-19-virus-was-man-made-in-wuhan-lab-11587303649821.html
"Nobel winning scientist claims Covid-19 virus was man-made in Wuhan lab
1 min read . Updated: 19 Apr 2020, 07:15 PM IST
IANS
France's Luc Montagnier says SARS-CoV-2 virus was the result of an attempt to manufacture a vaccine against the AIDS virus
'The Wuhan city laboratory has specialized in these coronaviruses since the early 2000s. They have expertise in this area,' he told a French news channel
London: French Nobel prize winning scientist Luc Montagnier has sparked a fresh controversy by claiming that the SARS-CoV-2 virus came from a lab, and is the result of an attempt to manufacture a vaccine against the AIDS virus.
In an interview given to French CNews channel and during a podcast by Pourquoi Docteur, professor Montagnier who co-discovered HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) claimed the presence of elements of HIV in the genome of the coronavirus and even elements of the "germ of malaria" are highly suspect, according to a report in Asia Times.
"The Wuhan city laboratory has specialized in these coronaviruses since the early 2000s. They have expertise in this area," he was quoted as saying.
The theory that Covid-19 virus originated in the lab is making rounds for quite some time.
US President Donald Trump last week acknowledged Fox News report that the novel coronavirus may have been accidentally leaked by an intern working at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China.
The Fox News, in an exclusive report, based on unnamed sources has claimed that though the virus is a naturally occurring strain among bats and not a bioweapon, but it was being studied in Wuhan laboratory.
The initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, the news channel said, adding that the "patient zero" worked at the laboratory. The lab employee was accidentally infected before spreading the disease among the common people outside the lab in Wuhan city.
Professor Montagnier was awarded the 2008 Nobel Prize in Medicine for the identification of AIDS virus, with his colleague professor Françoise Barre-Sinoussi.
His fresh claim on coronavirus, however, received criticism from scientists, including his colleagues.
"Just in case you don't know. Dr Montagnier has been rolling downhill incredibly fast in the last few years. From baselessly defending homeopathy to becoming an antivaxxer. Whatever he says, just don't believe him," tweeted Juan Carlos Gabaldon.
As per a recent Washington Post, two years ago, the US embassy officials in China raised concerns about the insufficient biosafety at the Chinese government's Wuhan Institute of Virology where deadly viruses and infectious diseases are studied.
Though the institute, located quite close to the Wuhan wet market, is China's first biosafety level IV lab, the US state department had warned in 2018 about "serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory""
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/claim-by-nobel-laureate-luc-montagnier-that-the-novel-coronavirus-is-man-made-and-contains-genetic-material-from-hiv-is-inaccurate/
QuoteGenomic analyses of the novel coronavirus show that it was not engineered. In addition, the claim that its genome contains inserted HIV sequences is based on a now-withdrawn preprint of a study that contained significant flaws in design and execution. The so-called "HIV insertions" identified by the authors are in fact gene sequences that can also be found in many other organisms besides HIV.
There's never been a genomic analysis of "the novel coronavirus", because there's never been a purification of this hypothesised entity that would enable identification of any genetic material obtained from a sample with it. This is the big joke attendant to the big lie.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on April 20, 2020, 06:43:16 PM
Remembering that 40% of American adults are obese. Also, 10% are diagnosed diabetic, and 35% are prediabetic. These people are just the current batch of a group whose members are in hospital or on their way to hospital at any given time. Their bodies are the biological equivalent of the Hobbesian war of all against all, at war against themselves. Walking blobs of poison and pus. I bet if you tested for all sorts of antibodies and so-called viral genes they'd come up positive.
Don't forget to pray for "them".
Both anti-Malaria drugs and anti-HIV medicines have been found to have efficacy against coronavirus.
Anyway, there's a petition to investigate the Gates Foundation now, for those interested in doing that.
"As we look at events surrounding the "COVID-19 pandemic," various questions remain unanswered. On Oct. 18th of 2019, only weeks prior to ground zero being declared in Wuhan, China, two major events took place. One is "Event 201," the other is the "Military World Games," held in none other than Wuhan. Since then a worldwide push for vaccines & biometric tracking has been initiated.
At the forefront of this is Bill Gates, who has publicly stated his interest in "reducing population growth" by 10-15%, by means of vaccination. Gates, UNICEF & WHO have already been credibly accused of intentionally sterilizing Kenyan children through the use of a hidden HCG antigen in tetanus vaccines.
Congress & all other governing bodies are derelict in duty until a thorough and public inquiry is complete."
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/we-call-investigations-bill-melinda-gates-foundation-medical-malpractice-crimes-against-humanity
Via UnHerd.com,
Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world's most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:
•UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based
•The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only
•This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a "by-product"
•The initial UK response, before the "180 degree U-turn", was better
•The Imperial College paper was "not very good" and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact
•The paper was very much too pessimistic
•Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway
•The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown
•The results will eventually be similar for all countries
•Covid-19 is a "mild disease" and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.
•The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%
•At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available
UnHerd host Freddy Sayers speaks with Professor Johan Giesecke in what they describe as one of the most extraordinary interviews they have done...
Over reaction to a "flu" that eventually will collapse the sovereign debt of the US and reserve currency status of the US dollar. Now that will kill 100's of millions if not billions in a third world war.
60 and over just stay home. Boy that was really complicated.
Quote from: King Wenceslas on April 21, 2020, 11:17:39 AM
60 and over just stay home. Boy that was really complicated.
Thank you for the other bullet points, KW. My very comprehensive reading, as well as my in-State experience conforms to the other points. However, this particular one needs modification.
Age appears to be a correlate, not a cause, as across the board (all ages) the risk factors for severe complications are the ones I listed, in the order listed, with obesity first, including among the younger segment. And obviously, the higher combination of risk factors, the more self-isolation needed.
That seems to be confirmed anecdotally as well -- with many over-60 folks tolerating the virus without hospitalization, while some other younger folks with one of the top several risk factors being sent to the ICU, although non-fatally in the vast majority of cases.
Deaths are in a high order of magnitude minuscule, compared to confirmed + all currently suspected (not yet testable) cases. Typical example within my own knowledge base: 3 out of us within a group association of mine (5 members), have had it and are alive to talk about it. I'm telling the other two (I being one suspected) to get their antibody test as soon as available.
Another example: A Southern CA study just confirmed a Northern CA study about likely massive numbers of already-mildly-infected (and largely recovered) cases. I'm sure this will become replicated in other U.S. studies, and soon.
"Cases" are not an emergency, but I do predict that Americans will be shedding some pounds
as soon as they're allowed to go outside and exercise.
Sweden - population more than 10 million - 15,322 cases - 1,765 deaths
Norway - population less than 5.5 million - 7,191 cases - 182 deaths
Finland - population more than 5.5 million - 4,014 cases - 141 deaths
Denmark - population more than 5.5 million - 7,700 cases - 370 deaths
Source - https://ncov2019.live/data
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-sweden-and-norway-handled-coronavirus-differently-2020-4
QuoteSweden has nearly 10 times the number of COVID-19-related deaths than its Nordic neighbors. Here's where it went wrong.
Kelly McLaughlin 21 hours ago
...
Anders Tegnell, the state epidemiologist who created Sweden's relaxed coronavirus response plan, told local media that the country's fatality rates show the spread of the virus is starting to "plateau," according to Bloomberg.
Charts released by Pantheon Macroeconomics, however, contradict Tegnell. Sweden's COVID-19 cases appear to still be rising, and Norway's appear to already be on a downslide.
(https://i.insider.com/5e9d6a5015ea4b315c0b4d0a?width=700&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
This side-by-side of Sweden versus Norway shows that Sweden may have made a mistake in taking a relaxed approach to lockdown. Ian Shepherdson / Pantheon Macroeconomics
Note, the above article only included Norway and Finland, but as you can see Denmark is doing much better than Sweden too. Norway, Finland and Denmark have done the lockdowns, while Sweden has not.
Quote from: Xavier on April 21, 2020, 07:27:12 AM
Both anti-Malaria drugs and anti-HIV medicines have been found to have efficacy against coronavirus.
Anyway, there's a petition to investigate the Gates Foundation now, for those interested in doing that.
"As we look at events surrounding the "COVID-19 pandemic," various questions remain unanswered. On Oct. 18th of 2019, only weeks prior to ground zero being declared in Wuhan, China, two major events took place. One is "Event 201," the other is the "Military World Games," held in none other than Wuhan. Since then a worldwide push for vaccines & biometric tracking has been initiated.
At the forefront of this is Bill Gates, who has publicly stated his interest in "reducing population growth" by 10-15%, by means of vaccination. Gates, UNICEF & WHO have already been credibly accused of intentionally sterilizing Kenyan children through the use of a hidden HCG antigen in tetanus vaccines.
Congress & all other governing bodies are derelict in duty until a thorough and public inquiry is complete."
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/we-call-investigations-bill-melinda-gates-foundation-medical-malpractice-crimes-against-humanity
Signed. Thanks.
Quote from: Xavier on April 21, 2020, 07:27:12 AM
Both anti-Malaria drugs and anti-HIV medicines have been found to have efficacy against coronavirus.
Ah, yes, take your synthetic HIV protease inhibitors. Protease is definitely not absolutely essential to human life and artificially inhibiting it to stop the production of alleged viruses at the molecular level will certainly not destroy your body from the inside out.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSc7Uml9veY&t=1208s[/yt]
Quote from: mikemac on April 21, 2020, 01:14:22 PM
Sweden - population more than 10 million - 15,322 cases - 1,765 deaths
Norway - population less than 5.5 million - 7,191 cases - 182 deaths
Finland - population more than 5.5 million - 4,014 cases - 141 deaths
Denmark - population more than 5.5 million - 7,700 cases - 370 deaths
Source - https://ncov2019.live/data
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-sweden-and-norway-handled-coronavirus-differently-2020-4
QuoteSweden has nearly 10 times the number of COVID-19-related deaths than its Nordic neighbors. Here's where it went wrong.
Kelly McLaughlin 21 hours ago
...
Anders Tegnell, the state epidemiologist who created Sweden's relaxed coronavirus response plan, told local media that the country's fatality rates show the spread of the virus is starting to "plateau," according to Bloomberg.
Charts released by Pantheon Macroeconomics, however, contradict Tegnell. Sweden's COVID-19 cases appear to still be rising, and Norway's appear to already be on a downslide.
(https://i.insider.com/5e9d6a5015ea4b315c0b4d0a?width=700&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
This side-by-side of Sweden versus Norway shows that Sweden may have made a mistake in taking a relaxed approach to lockdown. Ian Shepherdson / Pantheon Macroeconomics
Note, the above article only included Norway and Finland, but as you can see Denmark is doing much better than Sweden too. Norway, Finland and Denmark have done the lockdowns, while Sweden has not.
Ireland has a population of 4.5 million and 640 deaths and we are in lockdown since March 12th and stalin style since March 26th. I mean when the CDC practically give doctors the equivalent of a blank cheque when recording deaths and nudge quite heavily towards a covid death, the numbers mean nothing. And of course the elites want Sweden to fail, want the numbers to be high so maybe they are as flippant about cause of death than we are.
Today I drove into town and absolutely you can see people are breaking quarantine, 20 times more cars on the road than at the weekend. People are still afraid of lifting the restrictions and are buying the 'pandemic' line, I test the waters with some of them and they are believing the mainstream media.
I was talking to my local village pub owner yesterday, he was outside painting. You could see he was stressed thinking about whats happening. All pubs closed for way longer than the restrictions, possibly till Christmas. This fella is a young man with a serious girlfriend. Pubs are finished as far as I can see.
Quote from: clau clau on April 08, 2020, 08:26:47 AM
Quote from: clau clau on March 24, 2020, 12:34:01 PM
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Exhibit A.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238629
Exhibit B.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-52205159/coronavirus-the-italians-struggling-to-feed-their-families
Exhibit C.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWYvPzoX7Kw[/yt]
They are now charging $100 for Trucks to cross the George Washington Bridge !!
(https://filmfork-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/content/escapeposter.jpg)
As usual, and interesting take by Unz:
QuoteFew Americans remember our 1999 attack upon the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, and if not for the annual waving of a bloody June 4th flag by our ignorant and disingenuous media, the "Tiananmen Square Massacre" would also have long since faded from memory. Neither of these events has much direct importance today, at least for our own citizens. But the broader media implications of these examples do seem quite significant.
These incidents represented two of the most serious flashpoints between the Chinese and American governments during the last thirty-odd years. In both cases the claims of the Chinese government were entirely correct, although they were denied by our own top political leaders and dismissed or ridiculed by virtually our entire mainstream media. Moreover, within a few months or a year the true facts became known to many journalists, even being reported in fully respectable venues. But that reality was still completely ignored and suppressed for decades, so that today almost no American whose information comes from our regular media would even be aware of it. Indeed, since many younger journalists draw their knowledge of the world from these same elite media sources, I suspect that many of them have never learned what their predecessors knew but dared not mention.
Most leading Chinese media outlets are owned or controlled by the Chinese government, and they tend to broadly follow the government line. Leading American media outlets have a corporate ownership structure and often boast of their fierce independence; but on many crucial matters, I think the actual reality is not so very different from that in China.
I tend to doubt that Chinese leaders have any overwhelming commitment to the truth, and the reasons for their greater veracity are probably practical ones. American news and entertainment completely dominate the global media landscape and they face no significant domestic rival. So China recognizes that it is vastly outmatched in any propaganda conflict, and as the far weaker party must necessarily try to stick closer to the truth, lest its lies be immediately exposed. Meanwhile, America's overwhelming control over global information may inspire considerable hubris, with the government sometimes promoting the most outrageous and ridiculous falsehoods in the confident belief that a supportive American media will cover for any mistakes.
These considerations should be kept in mind as we attempt to sift the accounts of our often unreliable and dishonest media in hopes of extracting the true circumstances of the current coronavirus epidemic. Unlike careful historical studies, we are working in real-time and our analysis is greatly hindered by the ongoing fog of war, so that any conclusions are necessarily very preliminary ones. But given the high stakes, such an attempt seems warranted
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-our-coronavirus-catastrophe-as-biowarfare-blowback/
Evidently Wuhan, Gates, and WHO got hacked (maybe NSA?). Stuff dumped on 4chan. Here's a picture showing a sample of HIV spliced with coronovirus, see bottom right. NOTE: Not confirmed, but requires an explanation.
(https://gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/049/138/462/original/1307aa3bbf9bbba1.jpeg)
Quote from: Habitual_Ritual on April 22, 2020, 06:53:58 AM
As usual, and interesting take by Unz:
QuoteFew Americans remember our 1999 attack upon the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, and if not for the annual waving of a bloody June 4th flag by our ignorant and disingenuous media, the "Tiananmen Square Massacre" would also have long since faded from memory.
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-our-coronavirus-catastrophe-as-biowarfare-blowback/
What really happened at Tiananmen Square?
Quote from: Jacob on April 22, 2020, 09:46:32 AM
Quote from: Habitual_Ritual on April 22, 2020, 06:53:58 AM
As usual, and interesting take by Unz:
QuoteFew Americans remember our 1999 attack upon the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, and if not for the annual waving of a bloody June 4th flag by our ignorant and disingenuous media, the "Tiananmen Square Massacre" would also have long since faded from memory.
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-our-coronavirus-catastrophe-as-biowarfare-blowback/
What really happened at Tiananmen Square?
Student-led demonstrations held in Tiananmen Square in Beijing during 1989. Estimates of the death toll vary from several hundred to several thousand, with thousands more wounded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests
Quote from: mikemac on April 22, 2020, 12:01:27 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 22, 2020, 09:46:32 AM
Quote from: Habitual_Ritual on April 22, 2020, 06:53:58 AM
As usual, and interesting take by Unz:
QuoteFew Americans remember our 1999 attack upon the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, and if not for the annual waving of a bloody June 4th flag by our ignorant and disingenuous media, the "Tiananmen Square Massacre" would also have long since faded from memory.
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-our-coronavirus-catastrophe-as-biowarfare-blowback/
What really happened at Tiananmen Square?
Student-led demonstrations held in Tiananmen Square in Beijing during 1989. Estimates of the death toll vary from several hundred to several thousand, with thousands more wounded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests
I know that happened, but reading the earlier post I quoted, it came off like the protests and massacre were just Western media propaganda. Did I misread/misunderstand?
From earlier in the article:
QuoteConsider, for example, the Tiananmen Square Massacre, which every June 4th still evokes an annual wave of harsh condemnations in the news and opinion pages of our leading national newspapers. I had never originally doubted those facts, but a year or two ago I happened to come across a short article by journalist Jay Matthews entitled "The Myth of Tiananmen" that completely upended that apparent reality.
According to Matthews the infamous massacre had likely never happened, but was merely a media artifact produced by confused Western reporters and dishonest propaganda, a mistaken belief that had quickly become embedded in our standard media storyline, endlessly repeated by so many ignorant journalists that they all eventually believed it to be true. Instead, as near as could be determined, the protesting students had all left Tiananmen Square peacefully, just as the Chinese government had always maintained. Indeed, leading newspapers such as the New York Times and the Washington Post had occasionally acknowledged these facts over the years, but usually buried those scanty admissions so deep in their stories that few ever noticed. Meanwhile, the bulk of the mainstream media had fallen for an apparent hoax.
Matthews himself had been the Beijing Bureau Chief of the Washington Post, personally covering the protests at the time, and his article appeared in the Columbia Journalism Review, our most prestigious venue for media criticism. This authoritative analysis containing such explosive conclusions was first published in 1998, and I find it difficult to believe that many reporters or editors covering China have remained ignorant of this information, yet the impact has been absolutely nil. For over twenty years virtually every mainstream media account I have read has continued to promote the Tiananmen Square Massacre Hoax, usually implicitly but sometimes explicitly.
I have never come across this but I will investigate it further. After having just lived through the 2019 Hong Kong Riots and the absolutely outrageous lies told by the media, great offenses against the truth, it would not shock me at all if the Tiananmen Story as told by the West is total bullcrap. As per the media you'd think Beijing were here stomping on the innocent peaceful Hong Kongers with jackboots, but the reality is the precise opposite.
The Western media is obviously the greatest liar. Tiananmen is one of those "common knowledge" things that perhaps is indeed just another Western media propaganda scam, yet another attack upon enemies of the empire. The Western media is simply a weapon of the empire, used to attack any whom resist Western hegemony.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 22, 2020, 03:35:06 PM
From earlier in the article:
QuoteConsider, for example, the Tiananmen Square Massacre, which every June 4th still evokes an annual wave of harsh condemnations in the news and opinion pages of our leading national newspapers. I had never originally doubted those facts, but a year or two ago I happened to come across a short article by journalist Jay Matthews entitled "The Myth of Tiananmen" that completely upended that apparent reality.
According to Matthews the infamous massacre had likely never happened, but was merely a media artifact produced by confused Western reporters and dishonest propaganda, a mistaken belief that had quickly become embedded in our standard media storyline, endlessly repeated by so many ignorant journalists that they all eventually believed it to be true. Instead, as near as could be determined, the protesting students had all left Tiananmen Square peacefully, just as the Chinese government had always maintained. Indeed, leading newspapers such as the New York Times and the Washington Post had occasionally acknowledged these facts over the years, but usually buried those scanty admissions so deep in their stories that few ever noticed. Meanwhile, the bulk of the mainstream media had fallen for an apparent hoax.
Matthews himself had been the Beijing Bureau Chief of the Washington Post, personally covering the protests at the time, and his article appeared in the Columbia Journalism Review, our most prestigious venue for media criticism. This authoritative analysis containing such explosive conclusions was first published in 1998, and I find it difficult to believe that many reporters or editors covering China have remained ignorant of this information, yet the impact has been absolutely nil. For over twenty years virtually every mainstream media account I have read has continued to promote the Tiananmen Square Massacre Hoax, usually implicitly but sometimes explicitly.
I have never come across this but I will investigate it further. After having just lived through the 2019 Hong Kong Riots and the absolutely outrageous lies told by the media, great offenses against the truth, it would not shock me at all if the Tiananmen Story as told by the West is total bullcrap. As per the media you'd think Beijing were here stomping on the innocent peaceful Hong Kongers with jackboots, but the reality is the precise opposite.
The Western media is obviously the greatest liar. Tiananmen is one of those "common knowledge" things that perhaps is indeed just another Western media propaganda scam, yet another attack upon enemies of the empire. The Western media is simply a weapon of the empire, used to attack any whom resist Western hegemony.
Good talking points there comrade. Are you a CCP bot?
Thought this was pretty funny. Makes fun of all the unknowns/contradictions.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVs5AyjzwRM&t=99s[/yt]
[yt]https://youtu.be/SCqg8sXKyw8[/yt]
Coronavirus Pandemic Update 60: Hydroxychloroquine Update; NYC Data; How Widespread is COVID-19?
This video includes many important updates including: new data on hydroxychloroquine, COVID-19 antibody testing in Los Angeles County, why coronavirus kills men disproportionately, patient proning, and important hospital data from New York. Dr. Seheult also illustrates how hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin can cause cardiac arrhythmias, and how Australia is entering their typical influenza season - so COVID-19 data from "down under" will be important to monitor.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn2yk5SbGiw[/yt]
The page below wouldn't let me copy and paste, but I believe that at least some of the content of the video V.O. posted above (the part about sex differences) is summarized here:
https://www.gq.com/story/why-does-coronavirus-disproportionately-kill-men
Guess what? Smoking tobacco helps protect against the corona virus.
Far from being more at risk from the coronavirus, it seems that smokers might be protected from it. In order to ascetain this, French neuroscientist, Jean-Pierre Changeux, is working on a randomised control trial to test the effect of nicotine patches on Covid-19 patients.
The study is titled - 'A nicotinic hypothesis for Covid-19 with preventive and therapeutic implications.'
Quote
Nicotine may be suggested as a potential preventive agent against Covid-19 infection. Both the epidemiological/clinical evidence and the in silico findings may suggest that Covid-19 infection is a nAChR disease that could be prevented and may be controlled by nicotine. Nicotine would then sterically or allosterically compete with the SARS-CoV-2 binding to the nAChR. This legitimates the use of nicotine as a protective agent against SARS-CoV-2 infection and the subsequent deficits it causes in the CNS. Thus, in order to prevent the infection and the retro-propagation of the virus through the CNS, we plan a therapeutic assay against Covid-19 with nicotine (and other nicotinic agents) patches or other delivery methods (like sniffing/chewing) in hospitalized patients and in the general population
https://www.qeios.com/read/article/581
Here's some more info on how smoking protects against the corona virus.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/04/23/smoke-fags-save-lives/
Quote
In a country [China] where 27 per cent of adults smoke, only 6.4 per cent of the Covid-19 cases were smokers. This was not a fluke finding. Awkwardly for the anti-smoking lobby, smokers have been strangely under-represented in all the studies for which smoking prevalence data is available. They made up just 1.4 per cent of the cases in Zhang et al, 6.7 per cent in Wan et al, 3.9 per cent in Mo et al, seven per cent in Huang et al, nine per cent in Dong et al, 10 per cent of cases in Yang et al, 1.9 per cent in Guan et al, six per cent in Zhou et al, and 6.4 per cent in Liu et al. In Shi et al, only 8.2 per cent of cases had any smoking history.
Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos of the University of Patras in Greece noticed this phenomenon early on and put a preliminary study online in late March. It noted the 'unusually low prevalence of current smoking was observed among hospitalised Covid-19 patients', which 'does not support the argument that current smoking is a risk factor for hospitalisation for Covid-19, and might suggest a protective role'.
A few days earlier, a group of doctors from the Royal Glamorgan Hospital had written to the British Medical Journal to point out that nicotine protects against the kind of acute inflammatory reactions seen in Covid patients and that 'the simple use of nicotine patches should be urgently considered and discussed'. Nobody paid much attention, but evidence supporting the smoking hypothesis continued to slip out.
On 3 April, the US Centers for Disease Control published data on thousands of American Covid-19 cases. Once again, the proportion of smokers was tiny – just 1.3 per cent. Even ex-smokers were significantly under-represented (2.3 per cent).
The most comprehensive epidemiological study appeared a week later. Based on data from 4,103 Covid patients in New York City, a team of researchers found that a history of smoking was associated with a 29 per cent reduction in risk of being hospitalised with Covid-19 and, contrary to the claims of Public Health England, smokers were no more likely to become critically ill with the disease if they were admitted. The authors would have found an even sharper reduction in risk for current smokers if they had split them up from ex-smokers in their analysis, but even the findings as published were striking.
This week, a group of French academics published their study of 343 Covid patients, of whom only 4.4 per cent were daily smokers. According to the authors, the study 'strongly suggests that daily smokers have a very much lower probability of developing symptomatic or severe SARS-CoV-2 infection as compared to the general population'. This seems to have been the study that prompted Professor Changeux to go public with his research project.
People scoffed when Emmanuel Macron exempted tobacco kiosks from France's lockdown on the basis that they provide an essential service. Who's coughing now?
I'm loving this.
Now it seems that tobacco might be good for you.
https://eonutrition.wordpress.com/2016/12/15/truth-about-tobacco/
Has the world just turned upside down?
Posters here might already be familiar with my oxalate problem cause by eating to much spinach and other 'healthy' foods over the years. I'm still detoxing oxalates after a year on a low oxalate diet.
So I'm talking from experience when I say that spinach and other toxic foods have cause me, a smoker, more health problems than tobacco.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 25, 2020, 04:26:23 AM
Now it seems that tobacco might be good for you.
https://eonutrition.wordpress.com/2016/12/15/truth-about-tobacco/
Has the world just turned upside down?
Posters here might already be familiar with my oxalate problem cause by eating to much spinach and other 'healthy' foods over the years. I'm still detoxing oxalates after a year on a low oxalate diet.
So I'm talking from experience when I say that spinach and other toxic foods have cause me, a smoker, more health problems than tobacco.
Happy to hear that you are going and getting strong with your diet. I tried the no spinach/hearty green approach and I was not the same effervescent and sprite chap I normally was. Quite simply, I love my evening mixed green salad with ev olive oil and dash of ranch. Well, OK, a few "dashes" of Hidden Valley. As far as tobacco goes, I think I am going to get into that pipe and cigar thing. Looks enjoyable. I used to smoke cigs and chew the Copenhagen, which I liked very much. Especially with either a coffee or brewski. Chris Tulsa, is it true that James and Gardener went through three tins of Skoal each that one day?
Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
I tried the no spinach/hearty green approach and I was not the same effervescent and sprite chap I normally was. Quite simply, I love my evening mixed green salad with ev olive oil and dash of ranch. Well, OK, a few "dashes" of Hidden Valley.
You can still have salad on a low oxalate diet. Lettuce, cucumber, onions, rocket (arugala?) and others are all low in oxalates. Olives are high but you'd have to eat a lot of them. Similarly, apples and peaches are low in oxalates while raspberries and kiwi fruit are high. Peanuts are high oxalate while chestnuts are low, etc etc.
For me this whole exercise has demonstrated that the dietary guidelines as currently recommended by the medical establishment, governments, national and international organisations like the WHO and the UN, should be ignored because those same recommendations are making people sick across the Western world and beyond. The dietary guidelines benefit no-one but the corporations who make vast profits out of pushing processed plant foods onto an increasingly unhealthy population.
Incidentally, wheat bran is high in oxalates, which suggests that white bread is healthier than brown. Unprocessed grains also contain phytates which inhibit digestion and mess with your gut. So it turns out that white rice is healthier than brown. The world has indeed turned upside down.
It's been a while since anyone posted about which foods to stockpile, but meat, saturated animal fat and tobacco now seem like essential items. Along with processed white flour for breadmaking of course.
(https://gm1.ggpht.com/CFtpp5MLAFzIQdreoSc9Kgl9t60ylA3BroSQAMhz_EOfIs2z7lLs1_gInraG43R8UgjRCf5M_6PZc5Ou32ptX8W13KLSWZ3KLqAg-IBtxg2I_ma7e6_H5Bgryt9xBhj1U6Os6DURirnz8kHnNaNhQnD-EtP5GK1vqbBa6QEXh-ChPKwU8lVHj_HaaslHysJ0mBwr3iD0Jturs30xh39fsocNccsETnbyBZyipd1ZQkLxTf6wMUEx2Yx0jT-aQ18Wc94gQ3BbUJcuk0DRsElRqnsJUqtkSSPltmVV2wfTNZdQwXgeox8rHNjbe7K2-IHv605n69B0mX_v2N-0Z8UHj62hnNr0ofQW1whsW1p8bzC2SwCEh2PDlktzwua6DTD50VOwom2ue5WLLxj8yo49t46zjD60QdRpMY-17J-Wb4YlWWJPrkkTNjAhJ65IlagyNGbYK4ndKw1Tf6p3sbCOsgUarwYcbpSbsrc1TP6JBvLhH4WiKmtERdMSSBPWbCHrvJ1lkbbnGZZCr120ARH0Na1bGgUHJgx17g8audbJsM7ZG3B6R9mdQYi9eSuX-nHvPHuu7zCyzm9ocN8tXy08AXbCSsWxsNYH82luHhipSXoG3PvkhuuW0gp2jSPmCLB9_tejzttUTxz-jdMb4gEhxb_y_PhkAX_IYZDjTmveDFtigbOJBhH7JExEqh_Mu8vIHIziK0CqtWlNx5b8Ti8QLrOP5FtI029MqQ3HCRbTPzESg9hYpfwQ3wgLzvewnAAevCsc=s0-l75-ft-l75-ft)
I wish I could understand Italian. This looks good.
[yt]https://youtu.be/ok9Qu5rQRBc[/yt]
Google Translate:
The intervention of the deputy Vittorio #Sgarbi in the Assembly session n. 331 on Friday 24 April 2020 regarding the approval of the 'Cura Italia' decree.
"We are on the eve of April 25th and we must be united against dictatorships and united in truth. We do not make this the Chamber of lies: not on February 26th, but on March 9th science, the #science evoked here, said that the virus was little more than an influenza. That science was the one that inspired this #Government (Comments from the deputies of the MoVimento 5 Stelle and Democratic Party groups). It is said, it has been said, it is documented, it has been said, not So, tell the truth, don't make this the Chamber of lies. At least here the principle of Giambattista Vico applies: verum ipsum factum. And then, you heard and you gave the numbers, I want to give them too : no D'Attis, no Pagani; don't say 25 thousand dead here too, that's not true! Don't use the dead for rhetoric and terrorism. The data of the Istituto Superiore della Sanità say that 96.3 percent died from other pathologies (Comments by MP Trizzino) Exactly the data, the numbers, the numbers say This is the truth!
Go read them! Go read them! I read them all! 60 percent died of other conditions, said the Higher Institute of Health. If you don't know, study (Comments from Deputy Trizzino)! Ignorant!
While Italy was a red zone, everyone here was without masks. Today Basini is accused because he must carry it by force. You are ridiculous (Comments from the members of the MoVimento 5 Stelle group), you didn't bring it until the day before yesterday: that's exactly how it is! In Germany, economy, health and school will work perfectly on 4 May. We are a state with fewer rights in Europe. Germany has given proof of strength and correct response, here we are humiliated once again by Germany, even in the disease. We shut down 60 percent of the businesses. I give the data, dear Trizzino, go and check.
So, it is clear that I was the first to ask for the closure of Parliament; today we are all masked here, while the other time there was only Dall'Osso; there were few who wore the mask, today it is pointed out if you do not wear it. Well, just because truth is the most important thing, we give real numbers, we don't keep lying. There are certainly strong data. I also read them here, Trizzino: 56 percent in Lombardy, 14 percent in Emilia, 8 percent in Piedmont, 5 percent in Veneto. We cannot imagine applying uniform rules with such disparate areas of epidemic. So I say: at least here we tell the truth, measure ourselves against Germany, we are united in liberation against hypocrisy and lies, against falsifications, against false numbers that are given to terrorize Italians. The 25,000 dead, said Professor Bassetti, died of a heart attack, cancer, other diseases (Comments from the deputies of the MoVimento 5 Stelle and Democratic Party groups). Let's not use them to humiliate Italy, let's not use them to give citizens false news! Give the numbers, check them, and I challenge you, Trizzino, in a jury of honor to look at the numbers ...
I simply said that the numbers give them all, but they don't give false numbers. 25 thousand Coronavirus people did not die in Italy: it is not true! It is a way of terrorizing Italians and imposing a dictatorship of consent: it is ridiculous (Applause of the deputy Cunial)!
Which day was that?
I've added a date (and a translation) above.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 25, 2020, 08:54:56 AM
For me this whole exercise has demonstrated that the dietary guidelines as currently recommended by the medical establishment, governments, national and international organisations like the WHO and the UN, should be ignored because those same recommendations are making people sick across the Western world and beyond. The dietary guidelines benefit no-one but the corporations who make vast profits out of pushing processed plant foods onto an increasingly unhealthy population.
About a year ago, when I was away from the forum I became very sick. I was diagnosed with lupus in the 90s and have been chronically ill, off and on, ever since. (The main reason that I tend to spend so much time on forums is that it is an activity that I can do when I am not capable of much else.) But last spring things became even worse and I was steadily declining. My doctor was of no help, which is what I have come to expect, and I had reached a point of being willing to try just about anything.
What I tried was the carnivore diet. I think that you had mentioned it and I also came across it in association with Jordan Peterson whom I admire. I went months eating nothing but meat, experiencing one health benefit after another. So I did a lot of reading about health and nutrition to try to understand what had happened to me. There was one clear conclusion:
The dietary guidelines are nonsense. Almost everything that is commonly believed and officially promoted about nutrition is just wrong.
These are more or less the same people and same processes behind all the official information that we receive about Covid-19, so I am highly skeptical about all of it.
Jayne, do you get tested for C reactive protein to measure how well carnivore reduces your inflammation? Me, I've also discovered the benefits of carnivore, keto, low carb for the last several years. It was actually the Joe Rogan podcast interview of Peterson and his daughter that tuned me into carnivore which I've tried too. Peterson is a good man, I believe on a path to becoming Catholic one day.
Quote from: christulsa on April 25, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Jayne, do you get tested for C reactive protein to measure how well carnivore reduces your inflammation? Me, I've also discovered the benefits of carnivore, keto, low carb for the last several years. It was actually the Joe Rogan podcast interview of Peterson and his daughter that tuned me into carnivore which I've tried too. Peterson is a good man, I believe on a path to becoming Catholic one day.
It obviously reduced inflammation because I stopped having pain and stiffness. I can't remember if it was tested though. What I do remember about my blood work was that eating carnivore reversed diabetes and fatty liver.
(I agree with you about Peterson becoming Catholic. It would not be at all surprising.)
Clau clau,
Good for that Italian guy. Wish we had one of those here in the States.
For those who can read -- but apparently all of our government officials are too lazy to read -- the medical data continues to point to this:
There are several layers of danger after acquisition, from zero to extreme:
The broadest, most comprehensive layer is non-dangerous, being that symptoms are mild or even barely possible to detect, do not require hospitalization, and most often not even a call to the doctor. That is for at least 80% of the population and possibly even 85%.
Of the remaining 15-20% who do seek or require hospitalization, the vast majority of those recover without incident. They may even be briefly on a ventilator or experimental drug therapy, but almost always they are released from the ICU and sent home in less than a week.
The patients with one or more great complications and who become critically ill or die are in the single digits. (I'm including both those who die and those who do not.) Anyone can do the research himself.
Now, let's talk about that tiny percent and why supposedly the entire globe needs to become paralyzed for the tiny percent. It's because of the unknown. I'm not talking about fear of mortality right now, although that is a separate and very important factor in all of this -- a surprising fear of mortality from the very medical community that is supposed to be acquainted with death very regularly and therefore not regard it as "unusual and alarming." And please, the idea that young people dying of Covid is "unusual and alarming" is a phony excuse. Young people die all the time of various diseases and conditions, such as children who have cancer, young people who have hepatitis or any number of mainstream diseases. Death among the young is also not something that the medical community should find unusual and alarming.
When I speak of the unknown here, I'm referring to the many articles I've read about clinical manifestations of the disease being "all over the map," so to speak. The virus attacks many different bodily systems, sometimes singly, sometimes in combination -- but most often with respect to the vulnerabilities of that particular body. Since I'm not a doctor or research scientist, I do not know if that indicates different strains of Covid or different behavior of the same virus strain, relative to the host.
What seems to upset the medical community so much is lack of control and lack of knowledge. And that lack of control and lack of knowledge is the "unknown" factor that supposedly justifies destroying world economies above the equator -- in other words, the economies that are the engine of survival for the globe.
The medical community finds it unacceptable not to control the human body and knowledge of it, and so we are about to murder much of the world through fast or slow economic consequences, because of hubris, in concert with politicians who are enabling that hubris. And not many people seem outraged by that.
Naturally, I'm not even approaching the Catholic response to this. I am merely assuming a secular, non-believing response that does not account for the permissive Will of God in allowing who has died and will die "because of" or "from" the virus, which, as a couple of posters have pointed out, is a misleading phrase. (A significant portion of the deaths were deaths "waiting to happen" because of various morbidities in those bodies.) I am merely speaking on a natural and secular plane. It is nevertheless unacceptable that millions more lives will be jeopardized than the relatively few lives who will die "because of" the virus -- and all on account of the hubris of men to demand instant knowledge and consider that demand to know and control to be their divine right.
Finally, let's talk about the effect of impatience on the utterly distorted news reports. Daily, new information surfaces about rates of infection, degrees of infection, immunities, timing, and much else. Yet before this information is known or published, governments make decisions based on terror of the unknown, decisions possibly and in some cases surely tending to make infection more likely, such as the whole problem with isolation when that isolated community is merely infecting each other because the virus has nowhere to go.
Quote from: Jayne on April 25, 2020, 11:36:54 AM
Quote from: christulsa on April 25, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Jayne, do you get tested for C reactive protein to measure how well carnivore reduces your inflammation? Me, I've also discovered the benefits of carnivore, keto, low carb for the last several years. It was actually the Joe Rogan podcast interview of Peterson and his daughter that tuned me into carnivore which I've tried too. Peterson is a good man, I believe on a path to becoming Catholic one day.
It obviously reduced inflammation because I stopped having pain and stiffness. I can't remember if it was tested though. What I do remember about my blood work was that eating carnivore reversed diabetes and fatty liver.
(I agree with you about Peterson becoming Catholic. It would not be at all surprising.)
Yeah last I checked there are few studies on how much low carb reduces inflammation—evidenced by a reduction in inflammatory markers like CRP easily tested at annual checkups (especially with individuals suffering from chronic inflammatory diseases like lupus or MS. Considering physicians like Dr Andrew Weil have been highlighting inflammation as the main dynamic in most disease states, promoting lower carb anti-inflammatory diets, there should be more physicians monitoring inflammation in their patients. A CRP test is $10. My own doc is inclined to nutrition and supplements, but still somewhat under the spell of big pharma and standard American guidelines. So we're looking for a new doc, and also a naturopathic physician too who coordinates with the MD/DO, as long as they graduated from one of the naturopathic medical schools.
Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2020, 08:15:09 AMChris Tulsa, is it true that James and Gardener went through three tins of Skoal each that one day?
Which "one day"?
Quote from: christulsa on April 25, 2020, 11:56:00 AM
Yeah last I checked there are few studies on how much low carb reduces inflammation—evidenced by a reduction in inflammatory markers like CRP easily tested at annual checkups (especially with individuals suffering from chronic inflammatory diseases like lupus or MS. Considering physicians like Dr Andrew Weil have been highlighting inflammation as the main dynamic in most disease states, promoting lower carb anti-inflammatory diets, there should be more physicians monitoring inflammation in their patients. A CRP test is $10. My own doc is inclined to nutrition and supplements, but still somewhat under the spell of big pharma and standard American guidelines. So we're looking for a new doc, and also a naturopathic physician too who coordinates with the MD/DO, as long as they graduated from one of the naturopathic medical schools.
A huge proportion of illness is almost certainly nutrition/lifestyle related, but society keeps supporting a model that promotes wrong foods and then deals with the consequences with more and more drugs. While it is a systemic problem, most of us can only make choices for ourselves and our families.
Quote from: Jayne on April 25, 2020, 11:01:58 AM
About a year ago, when I was away from the forum I became very sick. I was diagnosed with lupus in the 90s and have been chronically ill, off and on, ever since. (The main reason that I tend to spend so much time on forums is that it is an activity that I can do when I am not capable of much else.) But last spring things became even worse and I was steadily declining. My doctor was of no help, which is what I have come to expect, and I had reached a point of being willing to try just about anything.
What I tried was the carnivore diet. I think that you had mentioned it and I also came across it in association with Jordan Peterson whom I admire. I went months eating nothing but meat, experiencing one health benefit after another. So I did a lot of reading about health and nutrition to try to understand what had happened to me. There was one clear conclusion:
The dietary guidelines are nonsense. Almost everything that is commonly believed and officially promoted about nutrition is just wrong.
These are more or less the same people and same processes behind all the official information that we receive about Covid-19, so I am highly skeptical about all of it.
What a coincidence. I didn't realise you'd been so sick and that you'd found such relief from the carnivore diet. I had a similar experience of collapsing health and was heading towards a diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome until a carnivore diet halted the progression, starting a year ago. I've since reintroduced some carbs and seasonal fruit, and am aiming for a traditional diet along Weston Price lines.
I completely agree that the dietary guidelines are nonsense. People are getting sick, obese, diabetic etc, not because they don't follow the guidelines, but because they do. Everything the dietary guidelines say is wrong. Fat doesn't make people fat, carbohydrates do. Cholesterol is good for us and too little causes depression and anxiety etc and has been linked to dementia and brain shrinkage. Industrial seed oils like sunflower oil cause inflammation and soya should never be eaten by humans. And so on ....
Some of the former vegans who post on YouTube warning of the dangers of the vegan diet are claiming that the dietary guidelines are part of the NWO agenda to make everyone weak and infertile. This wouldn't surprise me at all, and I know from personal experience how debilitating it can be to live for years on a plant based diet. So I can't listen to what the authorities say about Covid-19 either, without remembering the lies they have told about diet and the flaky science they base their recommendations on.
A friend of mine who is a big fan of track and field and coaches T&F, introduced me to two books by James Mc Dougal: "Born to Run" and "Natural Born Heroes"; in the second book, which is mainly about the Cretan's heroic resistance to the German occupation during W.W.II; Mc Dougal covers the whole aspect of the "Mediterranean Diet" and how all the data on the original study was "cooked" by the Doctor who did the study, to show an outcome that agreed with his opinions. Another woman who wrote a book debunking the same Diet, described how the Masai tribesmen of Africa are a basically sedentary people who are an almost exclusive carnivore diet, and how they are lean and muscular and in great health, despite practically doing nothing all day.
Let's continue to pray for all the afflicted, the departed, the dying, and all those engaged in the fight against this virus; may it end soon.
There's a prospect that the virus may completely disappear in the hot summer months, though with the possibility of resurgence later on.
Nearly 3 million cases, worldwide deaths cross 200,000; cases in the US near 1 million. deaths cross 50,000. deaths in Italy come next with about 26,000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMre6IAAAiU
prayers from: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-urges-catholics-to-unite-through-praying-the-rosary-in-may-27127
First Prayer:
O Mary, You shine continuously on our journey as a sign of salvation and hope. We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick, who, at the foot of the cross, were united with Jesus' suffering, and persevered in your faith.
"Protectress of the Roman people", you know our needs, and we know that you will provide, so that, as at Cana in Galilee, joy and celebration may return after this time of trial.
Help us, Mother of Divine Love, to conform ourselves to the will of the Father and to do what Jesus tells us. For he took upon himself our suffering, and burdened himself with our sorrows to bring us, through the cross, to the joy of the Resurrection. Amen.
We fly to your protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from every danger, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin.
Second Prayer:
"We fly to your protection, O Holy Mother of God".
In the present tragic situation, when the whole world is prey to suffering and anxiety, we fly to you, Mother of God and our Mother, and seek refuge under your protection.
Virgin Mary, turn your merciful eyes towards us amid this coronavirus pandemic. Comfort those who are distraught and mourn their loved ones who have died, and at times are buried in a way that grieves them deeply. Be close to those who are concerned for their loved ones who are sick and who, in order to prevent the spread of the disease, cannot be close to them. Fill with hope those who are troubled by the uncertainty of the future and the consequences for the economy and employment.
Mother of God and our Mother, pray for us to God, the Father of mercies, that this great suffering may end and that hope and peace may dawn anew. Plead with your divine Son, as you did at Cana, so that the families of the sick and the victims be comforted, and their hearts be opened to confidence and trust.
Protect those doctors, nurses, health workers and volunteers who are on the frontline of this emergency, and are risking their lives to save others. Support their heroic effort and grant them strength, generosity and continued health.
Be close to those who assist the sick night and day, and to priests who, in their pastoral concern and fidelity to the Gospel, are trying to help and support everyone.
Blessed Virgin, illumine the minds of men and women engaged in scientific research, that they may find effective solutions to overcome this virus.
Support national leaders, that with wisdom, solicitude and generosity they may come to the aid of those lacking the basic necessities of life and may devise social and economic solutions inspired by farsightedness and solidarity.
Mary Most Holy, stir our consciences, so that the enormous funds invested in developing and stockpiling arms will instead be spent on promoting effective research on how to prevent similar tragedies from occurring in the future.
Beloved Mother, help us realize that we are all members of one great family and to recognize the bond that unites us, so that, in a spirit of fraternity and solidarity, we can help to alleviate countless situations of poverty and need. Make us strong in faith, persevering in service, constant in prayer.
Mary, Consolation of the afflicted, embrace all your children in distress and pray that God will stretch out his all-powerful hand and free us from this terrible pandemic, so that life can serenely resume its normal course.
To you, who shine on our journey as a sign of salvation and hope, do we entrust ourselves, O Clement, O Loving, O Sweet Virgin Mary. Amen."
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 25, 2020, 12:58:46 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 25, 2020, 11:01:58 AM
About a year ago, when I was away from the forum I became very sick. I was diagnosed with lupus in the 90s and have been chronically ill, off and on, ever since. (The main reason that I tend to spend so much time on forums is that it is an activity that I can do when I am not capable of much else.) But last spring things became even worse and I was steadily declining. My doctor was of no help, which is what I have come to expect, and I had reached a point of being willing to try just about anything.
What I tried was the carnivore diet. I think that you had mentioned it and I also came across it in association with Jordan Peterson whom I admire. I went months eating nothing but meat, experiencing one health benefit after another. So I did a lot of reading about health and nutrition to try to understand what had happened to me. There was one clear conclusion:
The dietary guidelines are nonsense. Almost everything that is commonly believed and officially promoted about nutrition is just wrong.
These are more or less the same people and same processes behind all the official information that we receive about Covid-19, so I am highly skeptical about all of it.
What a coincidence. I didn't realise you'd been so sick and that you'd found such relief from the carnivore diet. I had a similar experience of collapsing health and was heading towards a diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome until a carnivore diet halted the progression, starting a year ago. I've since reintroduced some carbs and seasonal fruit, and am aiming for a traditional diet along Weston Price lines.
I completely agree that the dietary guidelines are nonsense. People are getting sick, obese, diabetic etc, not because they don't follow the guidelines, but because they do. Everything the dietary guidelines say is wrong. Fat doesn't make people fat, carbohydrates do. Cholesterol is good for us and too little causes depression and anxiety etc and has been linked to dementia and brain shrinkage. Industrial seed oils like sunflower oil cause inflammation and soya should never be eaten by humans. And so on ....
Some of the former vegans who post on YouTube warning of the dangers of the vegan diet are claiming that the dietary guidelines are part of the NWO agenda to make everyone weak and infertile. This wouldn't surprise me at all, and I know from personal experience how debilitating it can be to live for years on a plant based diet. So I can't listen to what the authorities say about Covid-19 either, without remembering the lies they have told about diet and the flaky science they base their recommendations on.
Reminds of the time I told a female colleague that pork products with unpasteurized milk for breakfast is healthier than Special K cereal with skim milk. She gave me that look.
Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2020, 02:28:16 PM
Reminds of the time I told a female colleague that pork products with unpasteurized milk for breakfast is healthier than Special K cereal with skim milk. She gave me that look.
All you need to do is point out the French paradox, which is that the French eat the most saturated animal fat of any country in Europe and have the lowest rate of heart disease.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_paradox
And you could mention that the connection between high saturated animal fat consumption and low rates of heart disease is observable across Europe.
Quote
The French paradox is actually a French-Swiss-Icelandic-Swedish-German-Austrian-etc.-paradox!
France eats the most saturated fat and has the lowest rate of heart disease deaths in all of Europe.
Switzerland eats second-most saturated fat and has the second-lowest mortality.
The countries eating more saturated fat have less heart disease, period.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/stunning-saturated-fat-and-the-european-paradox
From my own experience, fat is as important as meat for health, saturated animal fat and plenty of it. It's like ointment for the nerves.
Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2020, 02:28:16 PM
Reminds of the time I told a female colleague that pork products with unpasteurized milk for breakfast is healthier than Special K cereal with skim milk. She gave me that look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ARC_3m_b0
I actually had pork rinds for supper. I mix ground beef with sour cream and scoop the mixture with pork rinds.
I belong to a carnivore Facebook group. We post pictures of meat and make jokes about vegans.
Quote from: Jayne on April 25, 2020, 03:35:15 PM
I actually had pork rinds for supper. I mix ground beef with sour cream and scoop the mixture with pork rinds.
I belong to a carnivore Facebook group. We post pictures of meat and make jokes about vegans.
Small world. While I was posting that video for H, I was munching on lime flavored pork rinds I bought earlier at the dollar store, where I couldn't resist going since it's right across the street from the car wash. I used to eat a lot of pork rind "cinnamon toast crunch" "cereal" for breakfast: pork rinds, cinnamon, almond milk which surprisingly tasted great. Plus there's a lot of snap, crackle, and pop sounds coming from the bowl. Though pork rind nachos is still my favorite pork rind recipe.
Quote from: Jayne on April 25, 2020, 03:35:15 PM
I actually had pork rinds for supper. I mix ground beef with sour cream and scoop the mixture with pork rinds.
I belong to a carnivore Facebook group. We post pictures of meat and make jokes about vegans.
There's nothing better than knowing someone on the Keto diet, because they always have large stashes of spicy pork rinds and sour cream.
The same institutions and authorities that have been foisting an increasingly plant based diet on the world, pushing us all to 'abstain from meats' with increasing detrimental health effects, are also telling the world how to react to the Covid-19 virus.
Quote
[1] Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, [3] Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth.
1Tim 4
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 25, 2020, 05:03:07 PM
The same institutions and authorities that have been foisting an increasingly plant based diet on the world, pushing us all to 'abstain from meats' with increasing detrimental health effects, are also telling the world how to react to the Covid-19 virus.
Quote
[1] Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, [3] Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth.
1Tim 4
And the whole "climate change" thing is also strikingly similar. The world has made science into an idol to replace God. But, not surprisingly, the idol is full of lies.
Quote from: Jayne on April 25, 2020, 05:10:42 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on April 25, 2020, 05:03:07 PM
The same institutions and authorities that have been foisting an increasingly plant based diet on the world, pushing us all to 'abstain from meats' with increasing detrimental health effects, are also telling the world how to react to the Covid-19 virus.
Quote
[1] Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, [3] Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth.
1Tim 4
And the whole "climate change" thing is also strikingly similar. The world has made science into an idol to replace God. But, not surprisingly, the idol is full of lies.
It's all connected. According to the UN, we have to stop eating meat and dairy in order to save the planet from climate change.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet
Two birds with one stone. Make everyone weak, sick and big pharma dependent for the sake of the environment.
The NWO diet will be plant based.
I did carnivore diet for a bit and felt good at first then struggled after a few weeks and introduced some carbs. But when I have carbs I simply can't stop eating but it does release some anxiety. I need to look back into the carnivore diet as weight is ballooning and I enjoyed the sense of lean strength I had. I have seen celebrities talk about how the human race need to give up meat, typical of those who sold out to the NWO.
Quote from: Jonathan Hart on April 26, 2020, 06:31:26 AM
I did carnivore diet for a bit and felt good at first then struggled after a few weeks and introduced some carbs. But when I have carbs I simply can't stop eating but it does release some anxiety. I need to look back into the carnivore diet as weight is ballooning and I enjoyed the sense of lean strength I had. I have seen celebrities talk about how the human race need to give up meat, typical of those who sold out to the NWO.
Exactly. I am especially annoyed with Arnold Schwarzenegger.
(https://www.maxim.com/.image/ar_1:1%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MTM5NTkzMDAyNzgyODI4MDM3/arnold-steak-bodybuildingjpg.jpg)
He built his body, his career, his wealth, his fame, all on a diet high in meat. But now he carries on like it is a bad thing.
The whole cult of celebrity thing is just one more piece of how we are being manipulated and controlled.
(I've been away so long I've forgotten how to resize images. Can anyone help me?)
Quote from: Jayne on April 26, 2020, 08:03:00 AM
(I've been away so long I've forgotten how to resize images. Can anyone help me?)
Yeah, sure.
[img width=650]https://www.google.com[/img]
The Euromomo got a fancy facelift. If you spend a little bit of time on it you can see what is expected to be seen. In Italy, Spain & France the deaths in the 65+ range have a substantial spike up compared to anytime in the past 5 years. For Italy & Spain the deaths in the 15-65 range show the same spike (but not so for France). In places like Ireland deaths are actually lower than normal, as Diaduit has indicated from quiet hospitals.
This total death count bypasses any of the worries over whether its death by Covid19 or death merely coincidentally with Covid19. It also fits exactly with all stories that indicate the virus is currently painfully affecting some countries (Italy, Spain) and not others (Sweden, Ireland, etc).
If anyone cares, my current best guess as to explain all of the anecdotal evidence and keeping in mind the mathematical error from the tests raised by KR (the error being that if, for example, the true infection rate is 1% and the test is 90% accurate, using this test will indicate that 10x more are infected than really are) is that the virus is:
1) more deadly than expected
2) far less spread than expected
3) contagious if zero preventative actions taken
4) but easily defeated with face masks and hand hygiene or distancing
I think those four together best match what is going on in all instances I can think of. Because no preventative action was taken in Wuhan that explains how widespread it was and how many died. Same too for the Diamond Princess, with 14 dead from just a several day cruise (but 700 tested positive, but perhaps due to the gigantic math error from the tests it might have merely been say 70). Places like Hong Kong which never locked down but immediately went into voluntary widespread facemask & hand hygiene and quarantining incomers never got hit by the virus. Places like Lombardy which have an unexpected direct connection to Wuhan due to the leather industry got rocked similar to Wuhan but got it much under control with preventative measures.
Southern Europe which is more gregarious and thus more prone to contagion spread the easily preventable virus than Northern Europe which is more reserved. Perhaps even that simple level of reservation is enough to block the virus.
Another common theory is that the virus is super super widespread and almost no one is hurt by it. I think this does not fit with the anecdotal evidence or euromomo data. If it was widespread everywhere we should not expect to see certain places like Italy & Spain showing big spikes in deaths but not the other Euro countries. Or for America NYC / NJ but no where else (and not in HK, which is far more densely populated than either of those). The Euromomo data also makes irrelevant any various conspiracy theories about whether or not NYC is actually having as many deaths as it claims - from the Euro data we see that indeed, all deaths, virus or not, are spiking in the 15-65 and 65+ range for the countries that are claiming to be in crisis.
I think all of the magical asymptomatic cases are asymptomatic because they do not have the virus. Again, if the true infection rate is 1% and the test is 90% accurate, using this test will give you 10x more infected than you truly have. In other words, 10 asymptomatic positives for every 1 symptomatic positive. I strongly suspect those asymptomatic do not have the virus at all and its just an aberration of the test (as per the math outlined which you can refer to KR's post from awhile ago or I can walk through again if you don't understand).
And so for something like the Diamond Princess with 700 positives and 14 dead, maybe that positive case is 10x inflated and only 70 truly had the virus, of which 14 died. The cruise of course skews elderly so I am not suggesting this as a population wide ratio, but its far more devastating than the previously considered ratios. This type of threat also explains China's massive reaction.
I think this explanation best fits all evidence we have and also explains the reactions of various international governments.
Where did the European death rate data from before 2016 go? The Euromomo website seems to have taken it down.
I don't know, but I'm going to assume it's because the NWO got to them.
I was reading that covid-19 is hitting the elderly and nursing home residents the hardest because they would have got the flu shot. You know, as if the flu shot makes it a more virulent strain. I forget where I was reading that. Has anyone else heard of this?
Quote from: mikemac on April 26, 2020, 09:32:26 PM
I was reading that covid-19 is hitting the elderly and nursing home residents the hardest because they would have got the flu shot. You know, as if the flu shot makes it a more virulent strain. I forget where I was reading that. Has anyone else heard of this
Actually, I'm over this virus thing and have stopped reading everything about it, but you might find this link interesting. It isn't recent and doesn't relate directly to Cov19 or even those in nursing homes, but it presents a similar case. My mother is almost 90 and has never had a flu shot. Neither has she had the flu in the last 25 years. I put her on a natural regime to build up her immune system, which seemed to work. I can't even remember her having a cold in this time, and yet she does have COPD, which doctors maintain relate to her years of smoking, which she gave up in her late 60s, requiring her to use an asthma inhaler occasionally. She almost died at Christmas time, but that was heart related.
https://www.worldhealth.net/news/bombshell-flu-shots-scientifically-proven-weaken-immune-response-subsequent-years/
Quote from: Aeternitus on April 27, 2020, 04:06:58 AM
Quote from: mikemac on April 26, 2020, 09:32:26 PM
I was reading that covid-19 is hitting the elderly and nursing home residents the hardest because they would have got the flu shot. You know, as if the flu shot makes it a more virulent strain. I forget where I was reading that. Has anyone else heard of this
Actually, I'm over this virus thing and have stopped reading everything about it, but you might find this link interesting. It isn't recent and doesn't relate directly to Cov19 or even those in nursing homes, but it presents a similar case. My mother is almost 90 and has never had a flu shot. Neither has she had the flu in the last 25 years. I put her on a natural regime to build up her immune system, which seemed to work. I can't even remember her having a cold in this time, and yet she does have COPD, which doctors maintain relate to her years of smoking, which she gave up in her late 60s, requiring her to use an asthma inhaler occasionally. She almost died at Christmas time, but that was heart related.
https://www.worldhealth.net/news/bombshell-flu-shots-scientifically-proven-weaken-immune-response-subsequent-years/
Thanks Aeternitus. That's quite the report.
Quote...
In my news video below, you'll also learn:
People who had a 2008 flu shot experienced a 250% increase in influenza infections in subsequent years.
A study published in Human & Environmental Toxicology found that mercury-laced flu vaccines caused a 4,250 percent increase in fetal deaths during the 2009 flu season.
The flu shot narrative pushed by the vaccine industry is a medical hoax that's easily disproved by fact-based evidence.
People who get flu shots will be the first to die in an actual global pandemic because they have been made vulnerable to infections
That sounds like a good natural regime that you put your mother on. Would you care to share it? I'm interested because it comes with proven results.
Quote from: mikemac on April 27, 2020, 09:21:49 PMThat sounds like a good natural regime that you put your mother on. Would you care to share it? I'm interested because it comes with proven results.
Sure...
Initially, she took
golden seal extract in tincture form, which one can only get from a naturopath. It is not something that is taken all the time, and consequently she would have breaks from it, but every once in a while she would ask me to get some more for her, so I would organise it. One has to be careful with herbs, which are potent medicines and can be contra-indicated for some people with certain medical conditions or on other medication. I always recommend a consulting a reliable naturopath rather than self prescribing and we did this for my mother.
Golden seal tincture rid me of helicobacter pylori. I thought I had an ulcer and tests showed h-pylori. I reluctantly tried the antibiotics prescribed by the doctor and they made me violently ill. So I went to a naturopath who gave me golden seal tincture, taking a few mls three times a day in water. It took about 6 months but the h-pylori was gone. When I went back for tests, the doctor couldn't believe it and even asked me for my naturopath's details so she could pass on the information to some of her other patients who, like me, couldn't tolerate the very strong antibiotics.
Golden seal: https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/herbs-and-spices/goldenseal.html
Periodically, but regularly, my mother would also take:
Olive leaf extract. See here:
https://www.organicfacts.net/olive-leaf-extract.html
Echinacea just prior to flu season and also if anyone she was in contact with had a cold or infection:
https://www.organicfacts.net/echinacea.html
A liquid iron supplement (easier to assimilate than tablets), as she was prone to anaemia, which undermines the immune system.
B12 when prescribed by her doctor who was sympathetic to her preference for natural remedies and never pressured her to have the flu injection. She had regular blood tests to determine her levels.
Of course other supplements don't need a naturopath. So daily she took:
Vit B
Vit C
Vit D (she wasn't a sun lover like me – and this was also prescribed by her GP)
All of the above worked quite well for her, but again, I recommend one consult a reputable naturopath and particularly if one has medical conditions or is taking other prescribed medication. My mother took very little medication other than the above and had a moderately healthy diet. If anything, she ate too little rather than too much and couldn't tolerate too much meat, though she was by no means a vegetarian. She had a bit of a sweet tooth, and though she didn't really overdose on sweets, having them would satiate her and she would then not feel like eating a proper meal. In her latter days, before entering a nursing home, but when her activity levels had dropped considerably due to her age, she would only have 2 very small meals a day and some yoghurt in the evening.
I replaced her margarine with butter, vegetable oil with olive oil, got her off reconstituted milk and back to full cream; threw out the sugar replacement pills full of deadly aspartame and bought raw sugar instead, reintroduced her to porridge instead of packaged cereals and ensured she had seasonal fruit and vegetables, with a variety of red meat, chicken, fish and eggs. I organised organic produce for her as much as possible.
Hope that helps!
Aeternitus,
Thank you for the list. I've been working on curing IBS for many years and that includes various diets and naturopathic remedies, supplements and what not. I am always interested to hear what naturopathic remedies work for different people. What do you yourself use on a daily basis?
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on April 28, 2020, 05:26:01 AM
Aeternitus,
Thank you for the list. I've been working on curing IBS for many years and that includes various diets and naturopathic remedies, supplements and what not. I am always interested to hear what naturopathic remedies work for different people. What do you yourself use on a daily basis?
Hi Davis,
The only supplements I take every day are Vit B and C and this is because they are not stored in the body, but excreted daily. I am a strong believer in trying to get as many nutrients as possible from diet rather than supplements, but this is well-nigh impossible these days, considering mass production of food, the chemicals used to produce and transport them, together with increasing their shelf life. Consequently, I try to buy organic produce as much as possible. It is not always possible, so I just do what I can.
I then take supplements as needed, which is determined by what I am dealing with in my life. I recently took a course of echinacea, not because I felt threatened by any cold, but purely because I wanted to boost my immune system in the event of being "forced" to have a flu vaccination, which I have never had in my life. My mother's nursing home is insisting that visitors have flu vaccinations. I am going to fight this, but I just wanted to be prepared in case I was shoved into a corner and build my immune system up so it could deal with the vaccination! I would have the vaccination if forced to, provided it wasn't made from any immoral substance, so I would do my homework there too.
The golden seal really helped my digestive issues when they were quite debilitating. It is a truly wonderful herb, but I haven't needed to take it for some years now. I don't suffer from IBS, but every now and then stress gives me digestive issues. Instead of going to a naturopathic for golden seal, (which I would if it were ongoing) I take something called "Iberogast" when this occurs, which is available from both pharmacists and health shops over the counter. It is recommended for IBS. I find it immediately helpful and always have it on hand. I also know others who swear by it. It contains 9 herbs and here is a link about it.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/iberogast-for-ibs-4107574
I also drink 2 tsps of organic apple cider vinegar (with the mother in it) in hottish water in the morning and 2 tsps at night with a tsp raw honey. I find this helpful for digestion also, together with other benefits.
At the moment, I am taking something called rhodiola rosea. I take this when my life is extra stressful, which it has been. I find it extremely effective, inasmuch as it calms me down and enables me to juggle a multitude of things with ease. I am highly strung by nature and this noticeably reduces anxiety associated with stress, which, when internalised, as I tend to do, affects my digestion also. Once things calm down, I stop taking the rhodiola and just have it on hand. However, initially one should take it for a month or two to notice the effects. I have recommended this to others who have also had very positive results, but one friend, who is phlegmatic by nature, didn't really find it helpful. Their "anxiety", however, is insomnia induced, so I guess that is the underlying problem that needs addressing for them.
https://www.organicfacts.net/rhodiola-rosea.html
Hope this is helpful.
WATCH: "Dr Erickson Covid19 Briefing" CENSORED by YouTube
https://off-guardian.org/2020/04/29/watch-dr-erickson-covid19-briefing-censored-by-youtube/
I saw that, and saw the Fox discussion of that last night directly with Dr. Erickson.
I've said over and over (like him) that we should have started the process of herd immunity, and that delaying it will cause artificial "spikes" and "surges" just in time for the U.S. presidential election in November. The ultra left media never could abide the fact that Trump -- or any Republican -- was elected in 2016, and thus they are united in their effort to manipulate the news and even the progress of a disease in order to accomplish their goals.
The lawyers are asleep. Among the many constitutional infringements on display is the power of Youtube and Google to restrict information flow.
More Chutzpah on display. Those Orthodox Jews are growing on me.
Not gonna lie, at first I thought there was an Abraham Lincoln convention.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QJmExSMz28[/yt]
Imagine if the SSPX had kept all their chapels open, welcomed all comers, and had 24 hour mass schedules on Sunday inviting conservative minded independent priests to say the old rite masses in the chapels they could not get to. 6 feet between people in pews, and challenged the authorities to arrest them for providing the sacraments.
I bet the authorities in most places would not have the balls.
What would charges of "schismatic" mean then? Schism from a Church that does not have the balls to keep churches open because of a pandemic killing 1 in 400?
An opportunity squandered.
Sure, a handful of SSPX priests are in jail for child sexual abuse, but three dozen are in there for providing the sacraments. How many would newChurch have?
They would let them out after a few weeks, but they could bask in the glory for years.
Quote from: clau clau on April 30, 2020, 02:59:13 AM
More Chutzpah on display. Those Orthodox Jews are growing on me.
Not gonna lie, at first I thought there was an Abraham Lincoln convention.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QJmExSMz28[/yt]
Careful, there. You don't want to be accused of anti-semitism, do you?
World Jewish Congress President Ron Lauder Blasts De Blasio for 'Feeding Antsemites' (https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2020/04/29/world-jewish-congress-president-blasts-de-blasio-feeding-antisemites/)
Have a look at the frightening comments. Some are outright essays vomiting up all the Pro-Israel propaganda these Christian Zionists have been fed all their lives.
Quote from: Greg on April 30, 2020, 04:47:27 AM
Imagine if the SSPX had kept all their chapels open, welcomed all comers, and had 24 hour mass schedules on Sunday inviting conservative minded independent priests to say the old rite masses in the chapels they could not get to. 6 feet between people in pews, and challenged the authorities to arrest them for providing the sacraments.
I bet the authorities in most places would not have the balls.
What would charges of "schismatic" mean then? Schism from a Church that does not have the balls to keep churches open because of a pandemic killing 1 in 400?
An opportunity squandered.
Sure, a handful of SSPX priests are in jail for child sexual abuse, but three dozen are in there for providing the sacraments. How many would newChurch have?
They would let them out after a few weeks, but they could bask in the glory for years.
The SSPX chapel in Davie, Fla. Has remained open through this whole thing, and my brother says that they are getting many N.O. People who are now coming to Mass. Some have told him that they will never go back to the N.O.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 30, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
The SSPX chapel in [deleted] has remained open through this whole thing, and my brother says that they are getting many N.O. People who are now coming to Mass. Some have told him that they will never go back to the N.O.
Thanks for the encouraging story. May I suggest that we do not include identifying information when discussing which chapels are open.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 30, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
Some have told him that they will never go back to the N.O.
:thumbsup:
Congratulations to the "Chinese dropping like flies" thread on reaching number 8 spot in the Top Ten Topics (by replies) in the forum stats. May it continue to inform and entertain us.
(https://st2.depositphotos.com/4071863/5889/v/950/depositphotos_58896203-stock-illustration-congratulations-typography-lettering-text-card.jpg)
Quote from: Innocent Smith on April 30, 2020, 09:29:53 AM
Quote from: clau clau on April 30, 2020, 02:59:13 AM
More Chutzpah on display. Those Orthodox Jews are growing on me.
Not gonna lie, at first I thought there was an Abraham Lincoln convention.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QJmExSMz28[/yt]
Careful, there. You don't want to be accused of anti-semitism, do you?
World Jewish Congress President Ron Lauder Blasts De Blasio for 'Feeding Antsemites' (https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2020/04/29/world-jewish-congress-president-blasts-de-blasio-feeding-antisemites/)
Have a look at the frightening comments. Some are outright essays vomiting up all the Pro-Israel propaganda these Christian Zionists have been fed all their lives.
Some of the comments to the video are good though.
"Life's hard, it's harder if you're stupid."
John Wayne
Quote from: Jayne on April 30, 2020, 10:46:14 AM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 30, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
The SSPX chapel in [deleted] has remained open through this whole thing, and my brother says that they are getting many N.O. People who are now coming to Mass. Some have told him that they will never go back to the N.O.
Thanks for the encouraging story. May I suggest that we do not include identifying information when discussing which chapels are open.
Our priests have done all that they can from the beginning. The priests have heard confessions outside in the cold and damp. They have distributed communion one person or family at a time for hours on end. All day adoration, of which every hour was filled up for weeks. We now have Mass with limited numbers. You have to sign up for Holy Communion and Mass, and I have seen quite a few names I don't know, and assume they are coming from the diocese or the surrounding ones. I know that one of our priests has been at his mission chapel since the start of this, doing the same thing, I am sure.
It hasn't been easy on the faithful, and I am sure it has been just as hard for the priests. God willing we come out of this loving the faith, the Mass and the Sacraments more, and not taking for granted that we will always have easy access. The end is in sight to some return to normalcy soon here, praying that the same will happen everywhere else as well.
Quote from: Jayne on April 30, 2020, 10:46:14 AM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 30, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
The SSPX chapel in [deleted] has remained open through this whole thing, and my brother says that they are getting many N.O. People who are now coming to Mass. Some have told him that they will never go back to the N.O.
Thanks for the encouraging story. May I suggest that we do not include identifying information when discussing which chapels are open.
My bad!
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 30, 2020, 04:31:58 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 30, 2020, 10:46:14 AM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 30, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
The SSPX chapel in [deleted] has remained open through this whole thing, and my brother says that they are getting many N.O. People who are now coming to Mass. Some have told him that they will never go back to the N.O.
Thanks for the encouraging story. May I suggest that we do not include identifying information when discussing which chapels are open.
My bad!
But in Florida, churches are allowed to stay open, so there should not be any issue on saying the location. :-)
We won't allow a Pope to tell us which mass to say but we will allow a pro-abort politician to stop us saying any mass or hearing confessions.
[yt]https://youtu.be/jAFhMh_gbSg[/yt]
I agree with everything Peter Hitchen's says and have done since the beginning.
Why do I bother? For six weeks now I have been saying that the Government's policy on Covid-19 is a mistake.
Most people do not agree with me, and many are angry with me for saying so.
Others, bafflingly, don't care about the greatest crisis I have seen in my lifetime, and regard the debate as a spectator sport.
Let me say it again: the coronavirus is not as dangerous as claimed. Other comparable epidemics have taken place with far less fuss, and we have survived them...
continues ... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8281063/PETER-HITCHENS-destroying-nations-wealth-health-millions.html
Completely agree. History will judge this as mass hysteria. Like Y2K on steroids.
What has surprised me is that the supply chain has not collapsed and the supermarkets are still full of stuff. It just goes to show how many peoples jobs are complete bullshit.
Long term economic consquences, who the hell knows?
This Family needs help. Their Dad, the sole breadwinner, age 34, died unexpectedly. Donate here (https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg) if you can.
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
(https://images.justgiving.com/image/79d65943-6dee-4db5-97b0-0d1da6740767.jpg)
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg (https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg)
Eternal rest grant unto him on Lord
and let the perpetual light shine upon him
May he rest in peace
Amen.
:pray1:
edit: I noticed a few donations from the forum and that the total has gone up considerably. Thank you, very much appreciated. :thumbsup:
Quote from: clau clau on May 03, 2020, 05:36:24 AM
This Family needs help. Their Dad, the sole breadwinner, age 34, died unexpectedly. Donate here (https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg) if you can.
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
(https://images.justgiving.com/image/79d65943-6dee-4db5-97b0-0d1da6740767.jpg)
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg (https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg)
Eternal rest grant unto him on Lord
and let the perpetual light shine upon him
May he rest in peace
Amen.
:pray1:
edit: I noticed a few donations from the forum and that the total has gone up considerably. Thank you, very much appreciated. :thumbsup:
Who is this family?
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on May 03, 2020, 12:58:51 PM
Quote from: clau clau on May 03, 2020, 05:36:24 AM
This Family needs help. Their Dad, the sole breadwinner, age 34, died unexpectedly. Donate here (https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg) if you can.
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
(https://images.justgiving.com/image/79d65943-6dee-4db5-97b0-0d1da6740767.jpg)
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg (https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/inmemorytonylehain?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socpledgedesktop&utm_content=inmemorytonylehain&utm_campaign=post-pledge-desktop&utm_term=e3BErrgeg)
Eternal rest grant unto him on Lord
and let the perpetual light shine upon him
May he rest in peace
Amen.
:pray1:
edit: I noticed a few donations from the forum and that the total has gone up considerably. Thank you, very much appreciated. :thumbsup:
Who is this family?
A legitimate one in need. Trust the source and the request. Looks like a couple of us here have. Doesn't have to be much.
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kimdutoit.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F05%2Frozzer.jpg&hash=85a1f00589f383cbe27860617c3e2a1f3f71aa0a)
(https://media.thedonald.win/thedonald/post/oTSj5x5E.png)
PLEASE WATCH THIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvhTQV5FNUE&fbclid=IwAR0NzR_ETv9FKiREdl9zeaIY0U-bCX_LAOlPV-EYUhHoKUdIL970W_uD13c
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 04, 2020, 12:05:06 PM
PLEASE WATCH THIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvhTQV5FNUE&fbclid=IwAR0NzR_ETv9FKiREdl9zeaIY0U-bCX_LAOlPV-EYUhHoKUdIL970W_uD13c
Martin! What the foxtrot, dude. 10 minutes in and this arrogant slut must have dropped more F Bombs and than the whole script of
Midnight Run or
Harlem Nights. And nothing she said was new or revealing.
Quote from: Heinrich on May 04, 2020, 01:02:59 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 04, 2020, 12:05:06 PM
PLEASE WATCH THIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvhTQV5FNUE&fbclid=IwAR0NzR_ETv9FKiREdl9zeaIY0U-bCX_LAOlPV-EYUhHoKUdIL970W_uD13c
Martin! What the foxtrot, dude. 10 minutes in and this arrogant slut must have dropped more F Bombs and than the whole script of Midnight Run or Harlem Nights. And nothing she said was new or revealing.
I didn;t know. I only watched the first 5 minutes. sorry about that.
That's the first time I heard that they are actually murdering covid-19 patients in NY hospitals.
According to this site Nicole Sirotek hopes to return home to Nevada around May 6.
https://elkodaily.com/news/local/care-amid-the-chaos-local-nurses-travel-to-nyc/article_80f5ae06-250c-56a5-81e3-6a3410ba08e0.html
Quote from: mikemac on May 04, 2020, 02:02:24 PM
That's the first time I heard that they are actually murdering covid-19 patients in NY hospitals.
According to this site Nicole Sirotek hopes to return home to Nevada around May 6.
https://elkodaily.com/news/local/care-amid-the-chaos-local-nurses-travel-to-nyc/article_80f5ae06-250c-56a5-81e3-6a3410ba08e0.html
I instinctively knew that they were doing that to fudge up numbers(along with doctoring death certificates). That is why I said nothing was new was disclosed.
Quote from: Heinrich on May 04, 2020, 02:07:51 PM
Quote from: mikemac on May 04, 2020, 02:02:24 PM
That's the first time I heard that they are actually murdering covid-19 patients in NY hospitals.
According to this site Nicole Sirotek hopes to return home to Nevada around May 6.
https://elkodaily.com/news/local/care-amid-the-chaos-local-nurses-travel-to-nyc/article_80f5ae06-250c-56a5-81e3-6a3410ba08e0.html
I instinctively knew that they were doing that to fudge up numbers(along with doctoring death certificates). That is why I said nothing was new was disclosed.
Yeah I also heard that they were putting cause of death covid-19 on death certificates if they had covid-19 when they died. But like I said, it's the first time I heard that they are murdering covid-19 patients in New York hospitals. That's two completely different things all together.
My dear friend's father was neglected for a week. He developed UTI because nobody changed his sheets and underwear. The infection spread to his brain and he died. He was not a covid patient and yet they labeled him. The family couldn't even visit him. Almost everybody knows now that if you go to a hospital in NYC you won't be coming back home mot likely. My other friend's uncle also died in a hospital. Around 80 perceon of all patients that were put on a ventilator died. Why? because ventilator that the hospitals use is an outdated technology. HBOT would probably save all of them but this is the world we live in. Everything is about money and power.
Quote from: clau clau on April 22, 2020, 06:31:00 AM
Quote from: clau clau on April 08, 2020, 08:26:47 AM
Quote from: clau clau on March 24, 2020, 12:34:01 PM
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Exhibit A.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238629
Exhibit B.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-52205159/coronavirus-the-italians-struggling-to-feed-their-families
Exhibit C.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWYvPzoX7Kw[/yt]
Exhibit D.
It took the professor a while to figure that out. It only took him 2 months. [/sarcasm]
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/professor-economic-impact-lockdown-will-cause-more-deaths-covid-19
Columnist Peter Hitchens: Boris Johnson has created this coronavirus terror in the public mind.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baLxkQMVs0k[/yt]
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 04, 2020, 12:05:06 PM
PLEASE WATCH THIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvhTQV5FNUE&fbclid=IwAR0NzR_ETv9FKiREdl9zeaIY0U-bCX_LAOlPV-EYUhHoKUdIL970W_uD13c
I did not "know" any of this, but suspected. Then she started to sound like the whiny people I like not being around right now. Thanks for putting it up..I can handle the bad language.
Quote from: Armor of Light on May 08, 2020, 06:50:09 AM
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 04, 2020, 12:05:06 PM
PLEASE WATCH THIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvhTQV5FNUE&fbclid=IwAR0NzR_ETv9FKiREdl9zeaIY0U-bCX_LAOlPV-EYUhHoKUdIL970W_uD13c
I did not "know" any of this, but suspected. Then she started to sound like the whiny people I like not being around right now. Thanks for putting it up..I can handle the bad language.
I can handle bad language to, when it comes from Sargent Sargie Sarge Coach from the Team Marine Corps. But when I have to be reminded routinely why our society is in collapse whilst being reminded of things I already knew, neine, denke.
Quote from: Heinrich on May 08, 2020, 09:53:59 AM
Quote from: Armor of Light on May 08, 2020, 06:50:09 AM
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 04, 2020, 12:05:06 PM
PLEASE WATCH THIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvhTQV5FNUE&fbclid=IwAR0NzR_ETv9FKiREdl9zeaIY0U-bCX_LAOlPV-EYUhHoKUdIL970W_uD13c
I did not "know" any of this, but suspected. Then she started to sound like the whiny people I like not being around right now. Thanks for putting it up..I can handle the bad language.
Ja. Genau.
I can handle bad language to, when it comes from Sargent Sargie Sarge Coach from the Team Marine Corps. But when I have to be reminded routinely why our society is in collapse whilst being reminded of things I already knew, neine, denke.
Our 5 year old just told my wife that since the sun kills germs, playgrounds shouldn't be closed and the governor should go to confession.
Our governor is a gay Jew. Doubt he will be going to confession, but that would be amazing wouldn't it?
Quote from: Gardener on May 08, 2020, 02:00:23 PM
Our 5 year old just told my wife that since the sun kills germs, playgrounds shouldn't be closed and the governor should go to confession.
Our governor is a gay Jew. Doubt he will be going to confession, but that would be amazing wouldn't it?
"In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness,
and the darkness did not comprehend it."
B.H. for governeur.
Quote from: clau clau on March 20, 2020, 03:24:27 AM
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
James, Xavier,
Perhaps you could start reporting sucides in your figures.
Here's one from the UK yesterday.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/mans-body-found-sea-near-3964629
More suicides. I notice nobody is posting daily figures any more. [/sarcasm]
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISFHt9VAJg[/yt]
Amazon scrubbed anti-Fauci book:
https://www.amazon.com/Fauci-Science-Concealed-Syndrome-Epidemic/dp/B086C33Y64
Charles Ortleb Fauci. See if you can find anyone of the main online shopping outlets selling ;)
Quote from: clau clau on May 09, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
Quote from: clau clau on March 20, 2020, 03:24:27 AM
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
James, Xavier,
Perhaps you could start reporting sucides in your figures.
Here's one from the UK yesterday.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/mans-body-found-sea-near-3964629
More suicides. I notice nobody is posting daily figures any more. [/sarcasm]
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISFHt9VAJg[/yt]
Where's the graph of sucides Xavier?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8320623/Heartbroken-daughter-27-dead-not-able-attend-grandmothers-funeral.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ico=taboola_feed_desktop_sciencetech
Phuck the BBC (edit: Patronising Cow!)
What a load of old shite this whole lockdown was. The trouble is it is way too late. There will not be any pubs to go to.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuRUGUMCaSw[/yt]
The UK high street is going to look like a Potempkin village.
Here is a vision of the near future. Coming to a high-street near you.
(https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/pictures/2000x2000fit/0/9/9/1271099_select_after_whitleybay.jpg)
Still waiting for those figures ...
Oh ... crickets ... Back to the usual fare of end times prophecies I see !
I'm mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore!
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRuS3dxKK9U[/yt]
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 04, 2020, 04:01:37 PM
My dear friend's father was neglected for a week. He developed UTI because nobody changed his sheets and underwear. The infection spread to his brain and he died. He was not a covid patient and yet they labeled him. The family couldn't even visit him. Almost everybody knows now that if you go to a hospital in NYC you won't be coming back home mot likely. My other friend's uncle also died in a hospital. Around 80 percent of all patients that were put on a ventilator died. Why? because ventilator that the hospitals use is an outdated technology. HBOT would probably save all of them but this is the world we live in. Everything is about money and power.
Martin, would you please elaborate on the two bolded sections here?
From "The Maxims of St. Philip Neri":
"Let no one wear a mask, otherwise he will do ill; and if he has one, let him burn it."
Quote from: clau clau on May 14, 2020, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: clau clau on May 09, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
Quote from: clau clau on March 20, 2020, 03:24:27 AM
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
James, Xavier,
Perhaps you could start reporting sucides in your figures.
Here's one from the UK yesterday.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/mans-body-found-sea-near-3964629
More suicides. I notice nobody is posting daily figures any more. [/sarcasm]
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISFHt9VAJg[/yt]
Where's the graph of sucides Xavier?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8320623/Heartbroken-daughter-27-dead-not-able-attend-grandmothers-funeral.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ico=taboola_feed_desktop_sciencetech
I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colours anymore, I want them to turn black
I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes
-- https://genius.com/The-rolling-stones-paint-it-black-lyrics
Coronavirus: Mental health problems will now soar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRfSMyf_F4
100,000 deaths in the US. 37,000 in the UK and 23,000 in Brazil. 350,000 deaths in all. And 5.5 million people infected.
I recall the claim that the whole thing would end before there was "a purported death toll of 10-20,000". That's not true.
Just the flu? US flu deaths were some 37,000 in a whole year. This coronavirus caused 63,000 more deaths in 4 months.
Disproportionate reactions in some places? Yes, that's a legitimate argument, and I partially agree. I said earlier the Chinese Communist Party was bragging that democracies would allegedly not be able to control the pandemic in the way that they supposedly had, being a dictatorship. So the CCP was already trying to get countries to behave in a dictatorial way, and some western liberals likewise acted in a similarly dictatorial way, rather than acting in a data-driven manner ensuring safety but also respecting freedom. And as for those who still believe viruses don't exist, or something like that, all I can say is viruses do exist, bad people know they do, and even manipulate them in laborataries.
https://youtu.be/NMre6IAAAiU
Xavier,
What is disproportionate is the failure (and sometimes refusal) to count the recovered. Of those known to be Covid patients because they were actually tested, 300,000 have recovered. But there are millions of others who contracted Covid between late January and today, yet did not meet the artificial and narrow bar to qualify for a test. Some had classic (majority) Covid signs, but medical providers considered them not severe enough to test. Because of that, and because they were also never hospitalized, they are not counted in these figures, but the numbers of them are estimated to be enormous.
Then there are the 20% of us who had outlier symptoms, conceded to be part of the syndrome, but still not qualifying then or now for testing. So the only way we will ever be counted is as antibody carriers - for those of us interested enough and responsible enough to seek that test.
If the U.S. government, the CDC, and the state governments really wanted transparency with regard to the stats, they would insist on the following:
Covid-19 testing for everyone in the U.S., symptomatic or not.
PLUS
Antibody testing for all negatives
PLUS
Follow-up documentation, made available to the CDC, for all positives
PLUS
Delayed antibody testing for the recovered
It will give a snapshot-in-time set of data, some of which will have to be refreshed at intervals.
And I would be looking at independent researchers, not tied to anyone politically, to provide the data. Keep in mind that much of the statistical "trends" that have been reported were inaccurate, and many probably still are. Just one example: at one point it was reported that 89+% of patients on ventilators died; that was later dramatically corrected to something like 22% died.
Arbitrary panic and other forms of irrationality have led to many, many errors in statistical data -- most of those on the expanded/exploded side rather than the opposite.
What is crazy about this thread is the fact that you guys still acknowledge "official" numbers which are completely inaccurate and mostly false. NY deaths are a complete fraud. I don;t know what to say. This whole corona thing is a big fraud. People die, yes but not due to coronavirus.
Quote from: Miriam_M on May 18, 2020, 12:43:40 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 04, 2020, 04:01:37 PM
My dear friend's father was neglected for a week. He developed UTI because nobody changed his sheets and underwear. The infection spread to his brain and he died. He was not a covid patient and yet they labeled him. The family couldn't even visit him. Almost everybody knows now that if you go to a hospital in NYC you won't be coming back home mot likely. My other friend's uncle also died in a hospital. Around 80 percent of all patients that were put on a ventilator died. Why? because ventilator that the hospitals use is an outdated technology. HBOT would probably save all of them but this is the world we live in. Everything is about money and power.
Martin, would you please elaborate on the two bolded sections here?
Sure. HBOT (hyperbaric oxygen therapy) saves lives, especially of those who can't get enough oxygen into their blood and cells. Ventilators pump dry air at high pressure and over time cause bacterial infections and eventually death.
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 25, 2020, 09:58:39 PM
What is crazy about this thread is the fact that you guys still acknowledge "official" numbers which are completely inaccurate and mostly false. NY deaths are a complete fraud. I don;t know what to say. This whole corona thing is a big fraud. People die, yes but not due to coronavirus.
Please do not include me in "you guys." I don't think you understand that, or me.
Quote from: Miriam_M on May 25, 2020, 10:38:48 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 25, 2020, 09:58:39 PM
What is crazy about this thread is the fact that you guys still acknowledge "official" numbers which are completely inaccurate and mostly false. NY deaths are a complete fraud. I don;t know what to say. This whole corona thing is a big fraud. People die, yes but not due to coronavirus.
Please do not include me in "you guys." I don't think you understand that, or me.
I wrote this in the heat of the moment. Sorry about that. I didn't have you in mind when I wrote this BTW. I am just pissed that the "official" numbers are still considered official.
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 25, 2020, 09:58:39 PM
What is crazy about this thread is the fact that you guys still acknowledge "official" numbers which are completely inaccurate and mostly false. NY deaths are a complete fraud. I don;t know what to say. This whole corona thing is a big fraud. People die, yes but not due to coronavirus.
So do you actually believe that the reported 360,000 deaths worldwide or the reported 102,000 deaths in the US or the reported 23,000 deaths in New York State are "mostly false" or "are a complete fraud"? What portion do you consider to be mostly false? Or a complete fraud? Do you actually think that nobody has died due to coronavirus?
Quote from: mikemac on May 28, 2020, 02:13:32 PM
Quote from: martin88nyc on May 25, 2020, 09:58:39 PM
What is crazy about this thread is the fact that you guys still acknowledge "official" numbers which are completely inaccurate and mostly false. NY deaths are a complete fraud. I don;t know what to say. This whole corona thing is a big fraud. People die, yes but not due to coronavirus.
So do you actually believe that the reported 360,000 deaths worldwide or the reported 102,000 deaths in the US or the reported 23,000 deaths in New York State are "mostly false" or "are a complete fraud"? What portion do you consider to be mostly false? Or a complete fraud? Do you actually think that nobody has died due to coronavirus?
I don;t know how many died due to coronascare but I can tell you one thing. In NY doctors get paid a lot for covid 19 diagnosis so do hospitals. A lot of patients were labeled covid after car crashes and shootings. I live in NYC and personally know a couple of people whose family members died in a hospital after being treated poorly and considered covid even though the died because of other infections. Look at republican states and at democratic states and you will quickly find out that all of this coronavirus paranoia is pure madness on steroids.
The article below explains how Covid deaths in care homes could have been deliberately escalated without anyone noticing.
Quote
Here are three sets of conditions that collectively create a framework for enabling significantly boosted care-home deaths – and doing so with impunity – even while most of each set of conditions in isolation may appear to be purely for the benefit of everyone in society:
One. Bureaucrats develop extremely broad definitions of novel-coronavirus infections and outbreaks. This is coupled with the continuing presence, in a number of care homes scattered across each jurisdiction, of at least one nurse or physician who follows every letter of all definitions and rules. (Such individuals are always present in every discipline, but in the medical milieu their actions can be deliberate, deadly and very hard to detect.)
Two. Influential organizations and individuals produce hospital-care-rationing guidelines that recommend younger people receive higher priority than the elderly during the pandemic, by giving significant weight to how many years of life patients would have ahead of them if treatment is successful. Also, some guidelines bar care-home residents from being transferred to hospital.
Three. The chief coroner and leaders of the funeral, cremation and burial industries craft procedures that fundamentally change the way care-home deaths are documented and bodies dealt with. Their stated goal is to prevent overburdening of medical staff and body-storage areas during a surge in COVID-19 deaths.
They also put them into effect very quickly with no notice to the public; this gives those directly affected very limited opportunity for input or push-back.
Among the many radical changes is death certificates are no longer completed by people who care for care-home residents; instead, they are filled in by the chief coroner's office.
Also, examination of the undisturbed death scene is prevented, as are all but a very few post-mortems and other sober second looks at the cause and mode of death.
In the background are the complicit ranks of public-health organizations, politicians, media and many other influential individuals. When the pandemic first strikes they focus on how new, dangerous and poorly understood the virus is. As one side effect, this scares many care-home staff so much they flee in fear, leaving their overwhelmed colleagues to cope.
After a short time, they also start to distract the public and victims' loved ones from uncovering the three sets of conditions by focusing on other factors in the rash of deaths among institutionalized elderly – and by insisting the solution to everything is more testing and contact tracing, along with accelerated vaccine and anti-viral development.
This article shows how the three sets of conditions were put in place in Ontario, Canada.
Variations on these conditions very likely have been crafted in other jurisdictions in North America, Europe and elsewhere.
https://off-guardian.org/2020/05/26/were-conditions-for-high-death-rates-at-care-homes-created-on-purpose/
The situation in a good number of long term care homes in Ontario is horrendous.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6992824/coronavirus-ontario-government-long-term-care-homes/
QuoteCoronavirus: Premier Doug Ford says Ontario to take over 5 more long-term care homes in GTA
Posted May 27, 2020
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuDIras2_Cw[/yt]
Premier Doug Ford said the Ontario government will take over five more long-term care homes around the Greater Toronto Area amid the coronavirus pandemic.
The government already put two other homes under hospital care on Monday. Downsview Long Term Care in Toronto is now managed by Humber River Hospital, and River Glen Haven Nursing Home in Sutton is managed by Southlake Regional Health Centre.
The announcement comes after a startling report from the Canadian military was released Tuesday outlining multiple issues in homes across the province.
The report said military members observed cockroach infestations, aggressive feeding that caused choking, bleeding infections, and residents crying for help for hours.
The five new homes include Eatonville Care Centre, Hawthorne Place Care Centre, Altamont Care Community, Orchard Villa, as well as Camilla Care Community.
The latter home was not in the military report, but has had 61 residents die of the virus since the onset of the coronavirus pandemic.
Ford has also said Ontario has launched a "full investigation" into the allegations and will share the results with police so they can look into any possible criminal charges.
"We're going to do rigorous, rigorous inspections and we're going to find out very quickly who are good operators and who are bad actors," he said.
Four of the five homes are private, but Ford suggested creating a fully public system wouldn't be feasible without financial help from Ottawa.
Ford also said the government will be conducting "extremely rigorous" inspections of those homes, as well as 13 others facing challenges managing COVID-19, and will be doing random spot checks across the province.
He said Ontario is fully prepared to pull operating licences and shut down facilities if necessary, or take over management at more homes.
Military forces were called in to help in April in five homes and they will remain there until June 12, Ford said.
In light of the recent allegations, Ford defended Minister of Long-Term Care Merrilee Fullerton when asked at his daily briefing on Wednesday whether he will fire or ask for her resignation.
The premier also said he is expediting an independent commission into long-term care and is hopeful it will be established in July.
The Ontario Long-Term Care Association said it supports provincial efforts to investigate any abuse or neglect, but also called for the government to help in other ways.
"Inspections are important measures, however they do not provide the immediate resources and hands-on support homes urgently need on the front lines of the fight against COVID-19, nor do they address long-standing systemic and structural issues exacerbated by the pandemic that threaten its sustainability," CEO Donna Duncan said in a statement.
The association wants to see a greater supply of personal protective equipment, more rapid testing, infection control help for older homes, more supports from hospitals and expedited capital funding
According to the Ministry of Long-Term Care, there have been 1,587 deaths reported among residents and patients in long-term care homes across Ontario as of Wednesday. There are currently 135 outbreaks.
Related;
Canada's for-profit model of long-term care has failed the elderly, says leading expert
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/the-sunday-edition-for-april-26-2020-1.5536429/canada-s-for-profit-model-of-long-term-care-has-failed-the-elderly-says-leading-expert-1.5540891
I'm not sure if people are suggesting a nefarious plot by the powers that be to deliberately allow the spread of infection in nursing homes. That's difficult for me to imagine outside of a movie.
Concerning U.S. politics, I have heard it suggested this week by commenters in the NYT that Trump is, or Republicans are, only happy to "kill off" older people -- and poor people not as old -- because "entitlements" drain the economy. I think that's a bit far fetched. With regard to the elderly, many have one foot in the grave already.
Quote from: Miriam_M on May 29, 2020, 10:54:30 PM
I'm not sure if people are suggesting a nefarious plot by the powers that be to deliberately allow the spread of infection in nursing homes. That's difficult for me to imagine outside of a movie.
Concerning U.S. politics, I have heard it suggested this week by commenters in the NYT that Trump is, or Republicans are, only happy to "kill off" older people -- and poor people not as old -- because "entitlements" drain the economy. I think that's a bit far fetched. With regard to the elderly, many have one foot in the grave already.
A nefarious plot to kill off older and poorer people - not necessarily.
How about a tactic for increasing the covid death rate at the expense of older and poorer people. It's happened in the UK too. Is this a coincidence, or is it a deliberate policy?
Anyway, the Telegraph has this post in its comments section today.
It beautifully sums up what's happening. The poster is referring to the UK government and the 'track and trace' system being introduced here. But it applies elsewhere, unfortunately.
Quote
Pierre Bezuhov
30 May 2020 3:06PM
The next stage will be changing this 'voluntary' Orwellian 'track & trace' system into an effectively mandatory one.
This far-Left government, ludicrously calling itself 'conservative', will introduce more and more means by which people will find it impossible to live their lives, if they don't use this system.
You will, in due course, be unable to enter a supermarket, or any public transport system, unless you are being tracked and monitored by this ultimate system of mass control of the population. You will be unable to fly. And many other restraints will be introduced, until it becomes effectively impossible to not use the system.
The government - totally controlled by the globalists based in the UN, like most other governments - is using the manufactured 'Corona crisis' as the means to introduce a 'new normal', which is actually the New World Order planned by the globalists for a very long time: a totally controlled society in the post-democratic Age that we already entered quite a long time ago.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/30/sleepwalking-one-denial-liberties-even-insidious-phase/
Sums it up perfectly.
Welcome to the New World Order. It's happening.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on May 30, 2020, 02:57:49 AM
How about a tactic for increasing the covid death rate at the expense of older and poorer people. It's happened in the UK too. Is this a coincidence, or is it a deliberate policy?
Okay, then how are they accomplishing that?
Quote from: Miriam_M on May 30, 2020, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on May 30, 2020, 02:57:49 AM
How about a tactic for increasing the covid death rate at the expense of older and poorer people. It's happened in the UK too. Is this a coincidence, or is it a deliberate policy?
Okay, then how are they accomplishing that?
By discharging elderly covid patients from hospitals back to care homes as part of government policy to free up hospital beds. This happened in the UK and resulted in a high covid infection rate in care homes. The theory was that hospitals would be overwhelmed by (presumably younger) covid patients and that hospitalised elderly patients should be discharged.
Meanwhile, one third of all hospital beds in the UK are unoccupied, cancer clinics and operations have been cancelled and people are dying of heart disease and strokes at higher rates than normal.
Quote
Discharging coronavirus patients into care homes is 'madness', Government told
Growing evidence that policy, which Health Secretary said would continue, is fuelling virus outbreaks and deaths
By
Bill Gardner
15 April 2020 • 11:41pm
Care homes cannot safely accept hospital patients suffering from coronavirus without risking the lives of residents, ministers were told on Wednesday.
Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, said hospital patients who tested positive for Covid-19 would continue to be discharged into care homes despite growing evidence that the policy is fuelling outbreaks and deaths.
Charities and local authority leaders said the approach, designed to free up hospital beds, was "madness" because many homes do not have the resources to keep vulnerable and elderly residents safe.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/discharging-coronavirus-patients-care-homes-madness-government/
Also -
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8302039/Hospitals-probed-sending-elderly-care-homes-despite-KNOWING-coronavirus.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/24/care-homes-ordered-take-patients-suspected-coronavirus-nhs-hospitals/
Okay, thank you, but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, because I'm too logical.
Perhaps the authorities, triggered and impatient as they are, wrongly assumed hospitals would fill up, and so diverted the elderly patients without necessity?
Keep in mind that lots and lots of stupid decisions have been made in the States before contradicting data came in demonstrating the bad policy already made. Sometimes the policy happened too late for retrieval, such as above; at other times, officials have been too egotistical to admit wrong and reverse a policy, once the data revealed that a correction was in order. This is still happening where I live, in spades. It also happened in NYC earlier and may well happen again.
It's astounding how many unintelligent policy makers there are in the U.S., where policy is most often made politically rather than ethically/practically, which is supposed to be how it happens. And Corona has intensified the political nature of these decisions. I'm speaking here without any reference to conspiracy theories, but simply what can be seen on a simple, non-suspicious level as patently unwise relative to the actual data.
Quote from: Miriam_M on May 30, 2020, 08:43:37 PM
Okay, thank you, but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, because I'm too logical.
Perhaps the authorities, triggered and impatient as they are, wrongly assumed hospitals would fill up, and so diverted the elderly patients without necessity?
Keep in mind that lots and lots of stupid decisions have been made in the States before contradicting data came in demonstrating the bad policy already made. Sometimes the policy happened too late for retrieval, such as above; at other times, officials have been too egotistical to admit wrong and reverse a policy, once the data revealed that a correction was in order. This is still happening where I live, in spades. It also happened in NYC earlier and may well happen again.
It's astounding how many unintelligent policy makers there are in the U.S., where policy is most often made politically rather than ethically/practically, which is supposed to be how it happens. And Corona has intensified the political nature of these decisions. I'm speaking here without any reference to conspiracy theories, but simply what can be seen on a simple, non-suspicious level as patently unwise relative to the actual data.
Yeah, I think that's more like it Miriam. It happened the other way around here in Ontario, where the elderly were kept in the long term care homes if they got covid-19, fearing it would tax the hospitals if they ended up getting a lot of patients to the hospitals. Until our Premier Doug Ford stepped in when it was realized how bad the situation was in some of the long term care homes. Now the care of seven long term care homes has been handed over to the regional hospitals.
Quote from: Miriam_M on May 30, 2020, 08:43:37 PM
Okay, thank you, but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, because I'm too logical.
Perhaps the authorities, triggered and impatient as they are, wrongly assumed hospitals would fill up, and so diverted the elderly patients without necessity?
Keep in mind that lots and lots of stupid decisions have been made in the States before contradicting data came in demonstrating the bad policy already made. Sometimes the policy happened too late for retrieval, such as above; at other times, officials have been too egotistical to admit wrong and reverse a policy, once the data revealed that a correction was in order. This is still happening where I live, in spades. It also happened in NYC earlier and may well happen again.
It's astounding how many unintelligent policy makers there are in the U.S., where policy is most often made politically rather than ethically/practically, which is supposed to be how it happens. And Corona has intensified the political nature of these decisions. I'm speaking here without any reference to conspiracy theories, but simply what can be seen on a simple, non-suspicious level as patently unwise relative to the actual data.
Unintelligent, and yet smart enough to get themselves elected and as a result exert power over your life.
The bear, leopard, tiger in the forest is 'unintelligent' in one sense, but he's still stalking you, and his cunning and his predatory instincts are far superior to yours.
Still, whether or not US policy makers are dumb but mean well and are trying their best to protect US citizens from a deadly virus - or they are cunning and predatory psychopaths using the corona hoax to impose a totalitarian, digital, surveillance state - remains to be seen.
Never underestimate people. I've known some people you might describe as 'unintelligent' in the sense that you mean it, and been astonished at the level of their craftiness and cunning - enough to leave 'intelligent' people spinning in confusion.
Whenever I think that an elite (shotcaller level elite, not a Marco Rubio puppet level elite) is "stupid" I realize it is I who am mistaken - I merely do not understand what their end game is. They are taking steps towards their goal(s) and their goals are rarely what they publicly state them to be.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on May 31, 2020, 05:31:54 AM
Whenever I think that an elite (shotcaller level elite, not a Marco Rubio puppet level elite) is "stupid" I realize it is I who am mistaken - I merely do not understand what their end game is. They are taking steps towards their goal(s) and their goals are rarely what they publicly state them to be.
The "shotcalling elite" are themselves ruled by ideologies and historical movements they don't understand or comprehend, all the way up to the devil himself who thinks he's getting one over on God even as he's planting the seeds of his own downfall. All the most cunning people are going to end up blinking like an idiot in the end.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on May 31, 2020, 03:22:45 AM
Quote from: Miriam_M on May 30, 2020, 08:43:37 PM
Okay, thank you, but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, because I'm too logical.
Perhaps the authorities, triggered and impatient as they are, wrongly assumed hospitals would fill up, and so diverted the elderly patients without necessity?
Keep in mind that lots and lots of stupid decisions have been made in the States before contradicting data came in demonstrating the bad policy already made. Sometimes the policy happened too late for retrieval, such as above; at other times, officials have been too egotistical to admit wrong and reverse a policy, once the data revealed that a correction was in order. This is still happening where I live, in spades. It also happened in NYC earlier and may well happen again.
It's astounding how many unintelligent policy makers there are in the U.S., where policy is most often made politically rather than ethically/practically, which is supposed to be how it happens. And Corona has intensified the political nature of these decisions. I'm speaking here without any reference to conspiracy theories, but simply what can be seen on a simple, non-suspicious level as patently unwise relative to the actual data.
Unintelligent, and yet smart enough to get themselves elected and as a result exert power over your life.
The bear, leopard, tiger in the forest is 'unintelligent' in one sense, but he's still stalking you, and his cunning and his predatory instincts are far superior to yours.
Still, whether or not US policy makers are dumb but mean well and are trying their best to protect US citizens from a deadly virus - or they are cunning and predatory psychopaths using the corona hoax to impose a totalitarian, digital, surveillance state - remains to be seen.
Never underestimate people. I've known some people you might describe as 'unintelligent' in the sense that you mean it, and been astonished at the level of their craftiness and cunning - enough to leave 'intelligent' people spinning in confusion.
All good points! Can't argue.
It does take a certain kind of perverse intelligence to know how to manipulate entire populations skillfully. LOL.
Quote from: Miriam_M on May 31, 2020, 03:34:15 PM
It does take a certain kind of perverse intelligence to know how to manipulate entire populations skillfully. LOL.
And practice. They've been doing it for years. They have manuals ....
.... and experts. Edward de Bernays, the father of modern public relations who taught the entire advertising and PR industries how to manipulate entire populations skilfully buy playing on their emotions and desires, was Sigmund Freud's nephew.
Meanwhile, if the intentions of governments were truly sincere and benevolent, why do they feel the need to fiddle the Covid death figures?
According to pathologist Dr John Lee in this week's Spectator, writing of the situation in the UK -
Quote
Normally, two doctors are needed to certify a death, one of whom has been treating the patient or who knows them and has seen them recently. That has changed. For Covid-19 only, the certification can be made by a single doctor, and there is no requirement for them to have examined, or even met, the patient. A video-link consultation in the four weeks prior to death is now felt to be sufficient for death to be attributed to Covid-19. For deaths in care homes the situation is even more extraordinary. Care home providers, most of whom are not medically trained, may make a statement to the effect that a patient has died of Covid-19. In the words of the Office for National Statistics, this 'may or may not correspond to a medical diagnosis or test result, or be reflected in the death certification'. From 29 March the numbers of 'Covid deaths' have included all cases where Covid-19 was simply mentioned on the death certificate — irrespective of positive testing and whether or not it may have been incidental to, or directly responsible for, death. From 29 April the numbers include the care home cases simply considered likely to be Covid-19.
Quote
We need proper information to inform our responses to the virus, both clinical and societal. Instead, we have no idea how many of the deaths attributed to Covid-19 really were due to the disease. And we have no idea how many of the excess deaths were really due to Covid-19 or to the effects of lockdown. Officials should be releasing, as a matter of urgency, detailed information on the surge in deaths, both apparent Covid and non-Covid — particularly in care homes. How many are dying of Covid acquired in hospitals? Data presumably exists on this too, but is not released.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-way-covid-deaths-are-being-counted-is-a-national-scandal
Why are they doing this, bumping up the figures, if their intentions are good? Or are they simply trying to avoid looking silly, since they already know that Covid is just a flu bug and they need to keep justifying the lockdown even as they relax it?
Hi all,
How are our American friends doing with all the riots?
Martial law only around the corner?
Quote from: diaduit on June 01, 2020, 07:36:06 AM
Hi all,
How are our American friends doing with all the riots?
Martial law only around the corner?
Doing great. The death of the Republican Party and the birth of the far left Antifa party.
Makes for great theater up until the arrival of another Hitler to reestablish "law and order".
Quote from: diaduit on June 01, 2020, 07:36:06 AM
Hi all,
How are our American friends doing with all the riots?
Martial law only around the corner?
So much of this doesn't make sense, at least on the surface. Police in most cities seem to be standing down and allowing the looters to take over. I live about 30 minutes outside Philadelphia and according to the stories I've seen the police seem to be more spectators than anything. I wonder if they are afraid of the PR nightmare if they started actively taking the fight to the rioters and some of these "protesters" ended up dead.
I live in the burbs and most people around me seem to be more scared of getting fresh air (walking around outside with masks) than rioters.
Quote from: diaduit on June 01, 2020, 07:36:06 AM
Hi all,
How are our American friends doing with all the riots?
Thank you for asking, diaduit. We are not in the immediate area of the riots, but not as far away as I would like. The damage done to property is astounding.
QuoteMartial law only around the corner?
We are under curfew now.
Prayers for everyone's safety.
Quote from: diaduit on June 01, 2020, 07:36:06 AM
Hi all,
How are our American friends doing with all the riots?
Martial law only around the corner?
Staying rural. So, adipose land whales/Anglo Saxon base creatures are the ocular pains one must deal with.
Quote from: Heinrich on June 01, 2020, 11:21:01 AM
Quote from: diaduit on June 01, 2020, 07:36:06 AM
Hi all,
How are our American friends doing with all the riots?
Martial law only around the corner?
Staying rural. So, adipose land whales/Anglo Saxon base creatures are the ocular pains one must deal with.
"adipose land whales" Oh my goodness, I understood that.
Trump wants to declare antifa a domestic terrorist group. I hope he does.
Quote from: mikemac on June 01, 2020, 01:13:42 PM
Trump wants to declare antifa a domestic terrorist group. I hope he does.
Me too. Press secretary nailed it today. She is so effective. I love the way she silences the opposition by her confident, calm, non-apologetic manner.
Giuliani also nailed it, when it comes to De Blasio's incompetence. And WH press secretary also referred to the incompetence of the governors and their unwillingness (translation, political cowardice) to do their jobs.
Yeah I watched the Press secretary answer the reporters question about white supremacist groups. She said they already are. This was on CBC Canadian news.
Kind of related a couple of days ago I watched a white lady that owns a cafe in Minneapolis say the damage was done by white supremacists coming into the city from other cities. How ridiculous can you get. I didn't know there were roaming black mobs in the white supremacist groups. The reporter didn't even question her about it.
Wasn't it a city in Minnesota, possibly Minneapolis, that flew an antifa flag in front of their city hall back a couple of years ago during a Black Lives Matter uproar?
Quotethe incompetence of the governors and their unwillingness (translation, political cowardice) to do their jobs
You misunderstand their goals. The goal is chaos, it is working.
It is a full revolution. Let's see what happens.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 01, 2020, 04:10:24 PM
Quotethe incompetence of the governors and their unwillingness (translation, political cowardice) to do their jobs
You misunderstand their goals. The goal is chaos, it is working.
It is a full revolution. Let's see what happens.
What kind of a revolution do they want? Communistic ("Labor")? Social? Do make your case.
I think mine is just that they want total control; they don't need a revolution. I know you're far away from places CA and MI, but those governors are succeeding in totalitarian goals by simple decrees, which have remain unchallenged by citizens who apparently love those leaders. (For example, no one is demanding legislative approval of these authoritarian and autocratic decrees.) If anything, I would argue that Floyd protests disrupt the Covid Agenda, which is lockdowns and paralysis, resulting in dependency on the government, control over personal behavior and freedoms, etc.
The elites are American & British billionaires, almost exclusively Jewish, Protestant or atheist. They have shotcaller elite politicians like the Clintons or Bushs who set policy in their favor in very obscure ways. [if it matters, Trump is a shotcaller for the Zionist & usurious elites]
The different types of elite (generally determined by religion) want slightly different things, but there is much overlap. Some of these goals include:
- ever increasing control over people
- ever increasing material wealth
- decreased population
To reach these goals they will take whatever policies are expedient at that time. The specific ideology is almost irrelevant as they are as happy to enslave the world to usury through capitalism as they are to enslave the world through Stalinism.
Some various tools they use to reach their goals:
- usury (enslaves the world to be in their debt)
- addiction (especially to sex, but also to consumption, entertainment)
- hatred / chaos (divide and conquer)
- apathy / passivity (nothing matters, except for the dichotomies they set up through which to manipulate hatred they rile up)
- pride / arrogance (telling everyone they are so smart, so great, best people on the planet, blah blah)
- entitlement (you deserve this, conjuring up human rights)
At different times they will use different tools and different ideologies and talk out of both sides of their mouths and contradict themselves endlessly because what they truly want are their goals, not the specific "policies" mentioned at any given moment. If they are failing at reaching their policy that is not because they are incompetent, but because that policy was not their goal, it was just a tool to reach their goal and they'll swap a contradictory tool when appropriate if they feel it is now better suited for the job at hand.
The global economic system, specifically the usurious monetary system, has been on the brink of collapse since 2008. Making sure that they retain control during the transition from this imminently failing system to the new system is the primary goal of the elites. When the monetary system blows it will be mass chaos and anger (against the elites) and the elites need to have people particularly scared & dependent upon them and have scapegoats setup to take the fall. A faux revolution in which the same elites control things but through the appearance of a totally new system of governance is a potential tool through which the elites can try to maintain control during this monetary transition. Things like UBI are almost certainly a permanent feature of the new Western governance and will be a key part of the transition and new monetary system.
P.S. I continue to think Covid19 is a real threat to the world and that the elites are merely using it to their advantage (rather than it being a hoax, which I extremely doubt). Never let a crisis go to waste.
I never thought that the virus was fiction, which is how I interpret the word "hoax." I do know that the stats are manipulated because many people have evidence for that and have shown the evidence -- even the ultra-liberal commenters in the NYT's articles, who have called the editorial board on their generalities and inflated predictions. The stats are also incomplete, for another thing. (Sometimes those two realities do not overlap; sometimes they do.) I explained the omissions of numbers in an earlier post.
I also think one has to be careful about the kinds of conspiracy theories that don't hold together: For example, the vague, disjointed goals and methods listed in your post just now. I do not believe in such meandering, fluid conspiracies which encompass a great deal, although it's possible that distinct conspiracies overlap and even converge in points, but overall, I think broad, comprehensive conspiracies (if they do exist) are doomed to failure because they fail to have a focus and cannot be contained and directed efficiently when they seek to do too much simultaneously.
Miriam,
I do not intend to indicate that collectively all these elites get together and mastermind out their goals and plans. Rather they are independent actors but also are within small groups, say the Jewish tech elites, or the British financier elites, and so on so forth. Each works towards his own goals but by nature of being an elite these goals tend to overlap, especially within industries. Also there is great influence between the elites through the social circles and meetings they attend.
Sometimes there are more concentrated organizations which have specific unified goals, such as historically the masons over a century ago. Today I would say the financiers have a less explicit form of a group but its a group none the less. They obviously hold meetings constantly through global central banks. Their specific concern is how to maintain the world's indebtedness to their usury.
The problem facing the Western elites now is that they (the West) have dominated the global monetary system for 500 years and are imminently about to lose that control. Were there a Western nation capable of picking up the role as global reserve currency there would be less fear, but there is not, and so they face a great problem. How to maintain power without control over the global reserve currency? Prior control was explicitly through colonialism but after the British empire fell it was transferred to control through global finance (control of global money).
Quote from: Miriam_M on June 01, 2020, 09:29:47 PM
I never thought that the virus was fiction, which is how I interpret the word "hoax." I do know that the stats are manipulated because many people have evidence for that and have shown the evidence -- even the ultra-liberal commenters in the NYT's articles, who have called the editorial board on their generalities and inflated predictions. The stats are also incomplete, for another thing. (Sometimes those two realities do not overlap; sometimes they do.) I explained the omissions of numbers in an earlier post.
I also think one has to be careful about the kinds of conspiracy theories that don't hold together: For example, the vague, disjointed goals and methods listed in your post just now. I do not believe in such meandering, fluid conspiracies which encompass a great deal, although it's possible that distinct conspiracies overlap and even converge in points, but overall, I think broad, comprehensive conspiracies (if they do exist) are doomed to failure because they fail to have a focus and cannot be contained and directed efficiently when they seek to do too much simultaneously.
Out of chaos comes order (New world order)
I do think the meandering is on purpose and whatever tactic or method to get to the next stage no matter how contradictory it is to the previous tactic, they will use it for the final goal.
Two weeks ago protesters were called selfish for protesting the lockdown by the exact same people who are stirring the riots and looting and violence against innocent people. They are not stupid, they know they are contradicting themselves, they don't care, the end goal is total chaos. What they do not realise is that they are useful idiots and will be turned on by the very puppet masters they serve.
This seems to be an appropriate time to post this...
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
The Second Coming was written in 1919 in the aftermath
of the first World War. The above version of the poem is
as it was published in the edition of Michael Robartes and
the Dancer dated 1920 (there are numerous other
versions of the poem).
http://www.potw.org/archive/potw351.html (http://www.potw.org/archive/potw351.html)
Quote from: Lynne on June 02, 2020, 05:44:21 AM
This seems to be an appropriate time to post this...
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
The Second Coming was written in 1919 in the aftermath
of the first World War. The above version of the poem is
as it was published in the edition of Michael Robartes and
the Dancer dated 1920 (there are numerous other
versions of the poem).
http://www.potw.org/archive/potw351.html (http://www.potw.org/archive/potw351.html)
This is one of my favourite poems. I think it perfectly captures the malevolent spirit of the modern age. The last couple of lines are one of my signatures.
The imagery is fantastic.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 01, 2020, 07:58:55 PM
The elites are American & British billionaires, almost exclusively Jewish, Protestant or atheist. They have shotcaller elite
They are as Protestant as Nancy Pelosi is Catholic. It's slanderous to state that these Globalist Devil worshipers are at the same time believers in and worshipers of Christ.
Quote from: abc123 on June 02, 2020, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 01, 2020, 07:58:55 PM
The elites are American & British billionaires, almost exclusively Jewish, Protestant or atheist. They have shotcaller elite
They are as Protestant as Nancy Pelosi is Catholic. It's slanderous to state that these Globalist Devil worshipers are at the same time believers in and worshipers of Christ.
No it ain't... Prots are, by definition, Globalist devil worshippers
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on June 02, 2020, 03:57:58 PM
Quote from: abc123 on June 02, 2020, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 01, 2020, 07:58:55 PM
The elites are American & British billionaires, almost exclusively Jewish, Protestant or atheist. They have shotcaller elite
They are as Protestant as Nancy Pelosi is Catholic. It's slanderous to state that these Globalist Devil worshipers are at the same time believers in and worshipers of Christ.
No it ain't... Prots are, by definition, Globalist devil worshippers
Either you don't know what devil worshippers are or what "by definition" means.
Quote from: abc123 on June 02, 2020, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 01, 2020, 07:58:55 PM
The elites are American & British billionaires, almost exclusively Jewish, Protestant or atheist. They have shotcaller elite
They are as Protestant as Nancy Pelosi is Catholic. It's slanderous to state that these Globalist Devil worshipers are at the same time believers in and worshipers of Christ.
The oil elites then (Rockefellers) and now (Exxon) are largely Protestant as are most of your classic old-time American megacorps, like Wal-Mart or Coca Cola. The Dutch & British Protestants brought the corporation about and the New York Protestants gave them limited liability. The Protestants' hands are all over the globalist corprotacracy and it fits with some of their interpretations of Christian stewardship and wealth as a sign of being chosen.
The Protestants were also the ones who allowed contraception which fits in line with British Protestant Malthus who wanted limits on human population growth. I can't track it down so I might be off but I recall EMJ noting that either Carnegie or Rockefeller donated thousands of organs to Protestant Churches to get their support for population control (but I cant track down this to verify and so my memory might be confused).
I'll also note it was the Catholics who, after having fought the good fight for over a thousand years, finally caved in to usury in the late Middle Ages courtesy of the Lombards. That was a pivotal moment in the eventual downfall of all things around us.
As to whether the Waltons or Rockefellers are "true" Protestants is not something I will discuss for obvious reasons.
We're never going to get out of the mess we're in if we can't figure out the steps where things increasingly went wrong. The path for the disasters of today were laid down centuries ago.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 02, 2020, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: abc123 on June 02, 2020, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 01, 2020, 07:58:55 PM
The elites are American & British billionaires, almost exclusively Jewish, Protestant or atheist. They have shotcaller elite
They are as Protestant as Nancy Pelosi is Catholic. It's slanderous to state that these Globalist Devil worshipers are at the same time believers in and worshipers of Christ.
The oil elites then (Rockefellers) and now (Exxon) are largely Protestant as are most of your classic old-time American megacorps, like Wal-Mart or Coca Cola. The Dutch & British Protestants brought the corporation about and the New York Protestants gave them limited liability. The Protestants' hands are all over the globalist corprotacracy and it fits with some of their interpretations of Christian stewardship and wealth as a sign of being chosen.
The Protestants were also the ones who allowed contraception which fits in line with British Protestant Malthus who wanted limits on human population growth. I can't track it down so I might be off but I recall EMJ noting that either Carnegie or Rockefeller donated thousands of organs to Protestant Churches to get their support for population control (but I cant track down this to verify and so my memory might be confused).
I'll also note it was the Catholics who, after having fought the good fight for over a thousand years, finally caved in to usury in the late Middle Ages courtesy of the Lombards. That was a pivotal moment in the eventual downfall of all things around us.
As to whether the Waltons or Rockefellers are "true" Protestants is not something I will discuss for obvious reasons.
We're never going to get out of the mess we're in if we can't figure out the steps where things increasingly went wrong. The path for the disasters of today were laid down centuries ago.
You're using the term "Protestant" as if it refers to a race of people. Protestants are not like the Jews who ARE a race. You can have an atheist Jew. An atheist Protestant is a contradiction in terms. A Protestant is a non-Roman Catholic, western Christian. One is a Protestant who, not by a roman definition of course, worships Christ and seeks to follow His commandments. None of the individuals you reference would fit into this category.
Then you reference some apocryphal story about Protestant churches engaged in organ harvesting with no evidence to try to back your claim.
Ironically I was told growing up "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic." I guess that makes Nancy Pelosi, Andrew Cuomo, Phil Murphy and every other raving lunatic leftist politician who ever existed and had an Irish or Italian last name Catholic as well. Perhaps Catholics should be blamed for the current political atmosphere. Considering that both Obama and Hillary won the Catholic vote you should clean up your own house.
You're full of it in more ways than one as your posts throughout this thread have shown.
I think Davis meant the large musical instrument organ, not livers, kidneys, etc...
Quote
I can't track it down so I might be off but I recall EMJ noting that either Carnegie or Rockefeller donated thousands of organs to Protestant Churches to get their support for population control (but I cant track down this to verify and so my memory might be confused).
QuoteOne is a Protestant who, not by a roman definition of course, worships Christ and seeks to follow His commandments. None of the individuals you reference would fit into this category.
As I stated before, I am not looking to discuss what makes a "true" Protestant - it is an impossible subject. The people and families I listed themselves state they are Christians and attend services and / or teach at Protestant churches.
QuoteThen you reference some apocryphal story about Protestant churches engaged in organ harvesting with no evidence to try to back your claim.
As Lynne correctly noted, I meant the musical organ that plays beautiful organ music. It is documented that Carnegie did donate thousands of organs and I recall EMJ stating that either Carnegie or Rockefeller did this with purpose of getting the Protestant churches to sign on to teaching population control from the pulpit. But again I cannot at the moment track down where I heard EMJ state this so I might have specific details wrong on that.
Quoteguess that makes Nancy Pelosi, Andrew Cuomo, Phil Murphy and every other raving lunatic leftist politician who ever existed and had an Irish or Italian last name Catholic as well
Yes, until a person rejects Christ or His Church he remains Catholic, no matter how lousy of a Catholic the man is. I note that I do not consider any of those people as elites. They are the puppets for the elites. Nancy Pelosi does not make decisions, the elites do and she shamelessly does their bidding.
Quote from: Lynne on June 03, 2020, 05:16:52 AM
I think Davis meant the large musical instrument organ, not livers, kidneys, etc...
Quote
I can't track it down so I might be off but I recall EMJ noting that either Carnegie or Rockefeller donated thousands of organs to Protestant Churches to get their support for population control (but I cant track down this to verify and so my memory might be confused).
Good gravy. That's what I get for posting before coffee. I saw Rockefeller and my mind went immediately to satanic rituals.
My apologies.
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 18, 2020, 05:29:03 PM
Another batch of satellites being launched into the orbit. They have been sending them out last year and probably the year before. This new technology is being built out for new 5G networks. I wrote about this already and there is an extensive research on 5G and its environmental and health effects.
The call it "the internet of things" and for a reason. Welcome to the new world of matrix. This is a very important issue guys. Pleas do not disregard it.
https://www.space.com/spacex-launches-starlink-5-satellites-misses-rocket-landing.html
It seems a mouse hitched a ride.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/1XkEBNTXcuPI/
It looks like a mouse to me? Can you think of any other explanation.
Quote from: clau clau on June 03, 2020, 09:50:33 AM
Quote from: martin88nyc on March 18, 2020, 05:29:03 PM
Another batch of satellites being launched into the orbit. They have been sending them out last year and probably the year before. This new technology is being built out for new 5G networks. I wrote about this already and there is an extensive research on 5G and its environmental and health effects.
The call it "the internet of things" and for a reason. Welcome to the new world of matrix. This is a very important issue guys. Pleas do not disregard it.
https://www.space.com/spacex-launches-starlink-5-satellites-misses-rocket-landing.html
It seems a mouse hitched a ride.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/1XkEBNTXcuPI/
It looks like a mouse to me? Can you think of any other explanation.
Saw it and it does look like a mouse, I have heard two explanations from my 16 yr old that's circulating,
1. its dry ice
2. its old footage!!! (but still it was used in relation to the recent launch!!)
3. There are mice in the studio. :)
Quote from: abc123 on June 03, 2020, 07:57:05 AM
Quote from: Lynne on June 03, 2020, 05:16:52 AM
I think Davis meant the large musical instrument organ, not livers, kidneys, etc...
Quote
I can't track it down so I might be off but I recall EMJ noting that either Carnegie or Rockefeller donated thousands of organs to Protestant Churches to get their support for population control (but I cant track down this to verify and so my memory might be confused).
Good gravy. That's what I get for posting before coffee. I saw Rockefeller and my mind went immediately to satanic rituals.
My apologies.
:beer:
Just noting that when I mentioned Rockefeller I am focusing more on the patriarch and less so on the later generations (although I don't ignore them either). John D. Rockefeller was a devout Baptist and also the wealthiest person ever, a corporatist, monopolist, and a general archetype for how Americans are to approach business (although America is also influenced by the British which unsurprisingly practiced a similar globalist monopolist corporatist approach via their vast global trading corporations in colonies they conquered).
To be clear, none of this is, for example, written down in various Protestant Confessions, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith. But these things did grow up within Protestant cultures. There is a connection.
Similarly the Catholic saints and Popes fought feverishly against usury for over a thousand years before eventually usury got its camel's nose under the tent and look at where we are today. There was nothing in Catholicism that supported its acceptance but it was none the less from the Catholic Lombards that it came forth.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html)
Basically says that people that might be infected but aren't showing symptoms (i.e. the reasoning behind wearing the mask and social distancing) aren't spreading the virus.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 03, 2020, 06:10:55 PM
Similarly the Catholic saints and Popes fought feverishly against usury for over a thousand years before eventually usury got its camel's nose under the tent and look at where we are today. There was nothing in Catholicism that supported its acceptance but it was none the less from the Catholic Lombards that it came forth.
Is this when it all started to go wrong then, when the Church went soft on usuary?
Quote from: Stu Cool on June 08, 2020, 12:21:09 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html)
Basically says that people that might be infected but aren't showing symptoms (i.e. the reasoning behind wearing the mask and social distancing) aren't spreading the virus.
hahahah asymptomatic infection. that's a good one. CDC, WHO and all these pseudo health organization can go bit the dust now
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 08, 2020, 02:46:19 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 03, 2020, 06:10:55 PM
Similarly the Catholic saints and Popes fought feverishly against usury for over a thousand years before eventually usury got its camel's nose under the tent and look at where we are today. There was nothing in Catholicism that supported its acceptance but it was none the less from the Catholic Lombards that it came forth.
Is this when it all started to go wrong then, when the Church went soft on usuary?
There were a number of things going on which contributed to the decline. Some things which I have in mind:
- the Great Schism
- the hyper focus on logic via the scholastics (which perhaps would have been kept in check / balance had the East remained influential)
- the increasing prosperity of the people during Christendom (from Pope Gregory VII to sometime after the Revolt in the 16th century)
- the Church reversing its teaching on usury
- the Revolt
I see those as foundations for later disasters.
Specifically on usury do not focus so much on the interest because that becomes a bit confusing as to why interest matters. As I see it the big picture is that usury is legalized state-sanctioned counterfeiting combined with the enslavement of man to those granted this power. Counterfeiting is theft and requiring compounding excess leads to enslavement.
When a bank makes a loan to a man the bank does not lend out the savings of another man. That is total myth and 100% false. Instead the bank creates entirely new money out of thin air, otherwise known as counterfeiting, and gives it to the borrower. In exchange for receiving this counterfeited money the man then must perform additional work to repay the bank with real labor, labor even in excess of that which he could purchase with his borrowed counterfeited money.
The state then also assists the counterfeiters in seizing assets of the man were the man to be incapable of performing enough labor to repay the counterfeited money. So the counterfeiters either get repaid with real labor or with real assets, such as, say, your house. And when the usury system gets into trouble the state is invariably there to again help assist them to maintain their system of enslavement and counterfeiting (see Jay Powell today).
Counterfeiting is illegal because it is theft. Legalized state sanctioned counterfeiting in the hands of few, to the tune of hundreds of trillions of dollars, massively warps and distorts all aspects of society. This power is so immense and leads to moral decay all around, for the slavers and the enslaved.
The Church / clerics (however you want to view it) changed the teaching on usury and we're suffering immensely because of it.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 08, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
The Church / clerics (however you want to view it) changed the teaching on usury and we're suffering immensely because of it.
I must admit I'm a bit hazy on what, exactly, the Church changed, and have tried a few times to look into it further before giving up in confusion.
So I looked at a few websites again and am still confused as to what the Church used to teach on usury, what is taught now, and how usury is defined. 'The lending of money at interest' seems to be the definition, but what if the rate of interest is so low that little or no profit is made? Shouldn't the definition be more like - the lending of money at interest in order to profit from that interest?
But I'm all for condemning usury since capitalism depends on it.....
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 09, 2020, 06:59:04 AM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 08, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
The Church / clerics (however you want to view it) changed the teaching on usury and we're suffering immensely because of it.
I must admit I'm a bit hazy on what, exactly, the Church changed, and have tried a few times to look into it further before giving up in confusion.
So I looked at a few websites again and am still confused as to what the Church used to teach on usury, what is taught now, and how usury is defined. 'The lending of money at interest' seems to be the definition, but what if the rate of interest is so low that little or no profit is made? Shouldn't the definition be more like - the lending of money at interest in order to profit from that interest?
But I'm all for condemning usury since capitalism depends on it.....
I'm also confused.
Here is Benedict XIV writing about usury, and all his arguments seem reasonable. Are there other documents that show how the Church has changed her teaching? Or is usury something that people do and that turns into a habit imperceptibly?
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14vixpe.htm (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14vixpe.htm)
Some small gain is allowed
"By these remarks, however, We do not deny that at times together with the loan contract certain other titles-which are not at all intrinsic to the contract-may run parallel with it. From these other titles, entirely just and legitimate reasons arise to demand something over and above the amount due on the contract. Nor is it denied that it is very often possible for someone, by means of contracts differing entirely from loans, to spend and invest money legitimately either to provide oneself with an annual income or to engage in legitimate trade and business. From these types of contracts honest gain may be made."
I would suppose money at some point didn't have inflation/deflation (though I have no idea how this could be the case) in order to justify writing against usury (read: interest). If such was the case, then one is left only with the time value of money (what one could otherwise do with said money).
If one is in a situation where money value/buying power changes, then loaning at least at the rate of inflation keeps one from losing money (though they still lose the time value). If I can buy 3 widgets with $1 today, and give someone a 5 year loan, and in 5 years, the $1 only buys 2.5 widgets, I've lost 0.5 widgets of value. That's effectively loaning with interest against myself. If loaning with interest is wrong, then so is loaning with effective interest against the lender.
The time value of money is real, though it remains in potential until use and could be hard to prove absolute value.
Classically speaking, was interest considered any interest, or understood to be excessive interest?
Approaching it strictly, I would see no reason to loan anyone anything, ever.
The book 'Usury in Christendom' by Michael Hoffman has a long set of quotes, I will list some below.
Ezekiel 18 (RSV)
5 "If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right— 6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of impurity, 7 does not oppress any one, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 8 does not lend at interest or take any increase, withholds his hand from iniquity, executes true justice between man and man, 9 walks in my statutes, and is careful to observe my ordinances[a]—he is righteous, he shall surely live, says the Lord God.
10 "If he begets a son who is a robber, a shedder of blood, 11 who does none of these duties, but eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, 13 lends at interest, and takes increase; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominable things; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.
St. Clement of Alexandria cites this part of Ezekiel and is the first known instance of usury appearing in Christian literature, from his Paidagogos and later Stromateis.
Tertullian continues by noting in Adversus Marcionem that the Gospel does not abolish the Old Law but exceeds it. "He hath not... put out his money at interest, and will not accept any increase - meaning the excess amount due to interest, which is usury."
St. Cyprian of Carthage in Testimoniorum (Ad Quirinum) makes arguments that interest taking is against the law of God.
St. Ambrose, De Tobia
"Whatever exceeds the amount owed is usury"
Synod of Elvira, Canon 20 prohibits clerics & laymen from taking interest under penalty of excommunication.
Si quis clericorum detectus fuerit usuras accipere, placuit eum degradari et abstineri. Si quis etiam laicus accepisse probatur usuras, et promiserit correptus jam se cassaturum nec ulterius exacturum, placuit ei veniam tribui: si vero in ea iniquitate duraverit, ab ecclesia esse projiciendum.
St. Jerome in Commentaria in Ezechielem says: "One should never receive more than the amount loaned."
Hilary of Poitiers in his Tractatus in Psalm XIV says: "If you are a Christian, why do you scheme to have your idle money bear a return and make the need of your brother, for whom Christ died, the source of your enrichment?"
St. Basil in Homily on Psalm 15 says (very long, paraphrasing): "Ezekiel accounts the taking of interest and receiving back more than one gave as being among the greatest evils and the Law specifically forbids this practice..... for those who set rates of interest, their money is loaned and bears interest and produces even more... loans are said to bear interest on account of the great fecundity of evil... the offspring of interest one migh even call a brood of viper... you should have nothing to do with this monstrous creature."
St. John Chrysostom: "what can be more unreasonable than to sow without land, without rain, without plows? All those who give themselves up to this damnable culture shall reap only tares. Let us cut off these monstrous births of gold & silver; let us stop this execrable fecundity."
[note they are detesting that through interest mammon gives birth to mammon]
Frs William Addis & Thomas Arnold in Catholic Dictionary 1896
"The Fathers are unanimous in regarding all interest as usury, and, therefore, as a species of robbery."
Anyhooo the list of quotes goes on and on all the way up till the 1500s where it changes from no interest whatsoever to pulling a switcharoo of 'just no big interest.'
The bad fruits of any interest at all are manifest if you understand the monetary system (if you don't then indeed it will be baffling why it matters at all).
None of these answer the questions I asked.
QuoteAnyhooo the list of quotes goes on and on all the way up till the 1500s where it changes from no interest whatsoever to pulling a switcharoo of 'just no big interest.'
In Sweden the government loans money to students and the interest rate is around 1%. Without the small gain they wouldnt be able to provide the loans (paying employees that reads through the applications etc).
Seems fair.
Quote from: Gardener on June 09, 2020, 08:23:46 AM
None of these answer the questions I asked.
Maybe there are no formal answers to your questions. At least I haven't been able to find any.
So I can only imagine that Catholic common sense would come into play when addressing your first question -
"If one is in a situation where money value/buying power changes, then loaning at least at the rate of inflation keeps one from losing money (though they still lose the time value). If I can buy 3 widgets with $1 today, and give someone a 5 year loan, and in 5 years, the $1 only buys 2.5 widgets, I've lost 0.5 widgets of value. That's effectively loaning with interest against myself. If loaning with interest is wrong, then so is loaning with effective interest against the lender."
Surely Catholic common sense would suggest that charging a fee to cover inflation would NOT be considered usury? In fact it wouldn't even be considered as interest, merely a fee to cover inflation.
And your second question -
"Classically speaking, was interest considered any interest, or understood to be excessive interest?"
I'm guessing that all interest is condemned, classically speaking, but that charging a fee to cover inflation and any administrative costs is not interest.
The essential thing about usury is that the interest charged is intended to yield profit and this is why a fee to cover inflation and possible admin costs is not interest and therefore not usury.
At least until a more authoritative source can be found .....
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 09, 2020, 09:02:14 AM
Quote from: Gardener on June 09, 2020, 08:23:46 AM
None of these answer the questions I asked.
Maybe there are no formal answers to your questions. At least I haven't been able to find any.
So I can only imagine that Catholic common sense would come into play when addressing your first question -
"If one is in a situation where money value/buying power changes, then loaning at least at the rate of inflation keeps one from losing money (though they still lose the time value). If I can buy 3 widgets with $1 today, and give someone a 5 year loan, and in 5 years, the $1 only buys 2.5 widgets, I've lost 0.5 widgets of value. That's effectively loaning with interest against myself. If loaning with interest is wrong, then so is loaning with effective interest against the lender."
Surely Catholic common sense would suggest that charging a fee to cover inflation would NOT be considered usury? In fact it wouldn't even be considered as interest, merely a fee to cover inflation.
And your second question -
"Classically speaking, was interest considered any interest, or understood to be excessive interest?"
I'm guessing that all interest is condemned, classically speaking, but that charging a fee to cover inflation and any administrative costs is not interest.
The essential thing about usury is that the interest charged is intended to yield profit and this is why a fee to cover inflation and possible admin costs is not interest and therefore not usury.
At least until a more authoritative source can be found .....
Renaming interest as a fee doesn't change the principle, just like reclassifying the Obamacare penalty (unconstitutional) as a tax (constitutional, but not what SCOTUS was presented) doesn't make it any different.
At any rate, the time value of money is real. So if someone needs 500k to do something, the person/corporation/lender who lends it also could have done something with that money. It makes no business sense to essentially cut into one's own ability to engage in business so that another can.
Quote from: Gardener on June 09, 2020, 10:52:27 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 09, 2020, 09:02:14 AM
Quote from: Gardener on June 09, 2020, 08:23:46 AM
None of these answer the questions I asked.
Maybe there are no formal answers to your questions. At least I haven't been able to find any.
So I can only imagine that Catholic common sense would come into play when addressing your first question -
"If one is in a situation where money value/buying power changes, then loaning at least at the rate of inflation keeps one from losing money (though they still lose the time value). If I can buy 3 widgets with $1 today, and give someone a 5 year loan, and in 5 years, the $1 only buys 2.5 widgets, I've lost 0.5 widgets of value. That's effectively loaning with interest against myself. If loaning with interest is wrong, then so is loaning with effective interest against the lender."
Surely Catholic common sense would suggest that charging a fee to cover inflation would NOT be considered usury? In fact it wouldn't even be considered as interest, merely a fee to cover inflation.
And your second question -
"Classically speaking, was interest considered any interest, or understood to be excessive interest?"
I'm guessing that all interest is condemned, classically speaking, but that charging a fee to cover inflation and any administrative costs is not interest.
The essential thing about usury is that the interest charged is intended to yield profit and this is why a fee to cover inflation and possible admin costs is not interest and therefore not usury.
At least until a more authoritative source can be found .....
Renaming interest as a fee doesn't change the principle, just like reclassifying the Obamacare penalty (unconstitutional) as a tax (constitutional, but not what SCOTUS was presented) doesn't make it any different.
You mean I've correctly named a fee as a fee since the fee only covers costs and results in no financial gain. The correct principle is that interest has to generate profit in order to be interest, whereas a fee doesn't.
I don't know anything about the Obamacare penalty so can't comment on your comparison.
Quote
At any rate, the time value of money is real. So if someone needs 500k to do something, the person/corporation/lender who lends it also could have done something with that money. It makes no business sense to essentially cut into one's own ability to engage in business so that another can.
You're right. If lending money was unprofitable, it would make no business sense to lend money. It only makes business sense to lend money because usury - lending money at interest in order to make a profit - is accepted.
Let me be clear, I'm not against "fees". But it's still requiring more in repayment than the original loan. Which, strictly, is interest. That it's called a fee is sort of beside the point. The only way to get around this is if one pulls the Islamic trick of rolling the interest of the loan into the loan itself and calling it not interest. So if the loan was 500k and interest would have been 200k, they give a 700k loan. (only lovers of goats could come up with such a novelty).
The result of not lending money essentially stultifies class mobility, and disallows businesses to grow (if they could ever be started to begin with).
One could make the argument of being a "silent partner", though they rarely are silent. And if the business is something with which they have no good skill, their demands might actually sink the thing.
My main point of contention is such encyclicals and sayings don't seem to recognize money for what it is, nor certain realities such as inflation/deflation.
I'm curious as to what reality would look like if such things were enacted.
Gardener,
QuoteClassically speaking, was interest considered any interest, or understood to be excessive interest?
To my understanding the Christians saw it as any amount over the principal was usury.
QuoteApproaching it strictly, I would see no reason to loan anyone anything, ever.
I think the purpose of a Christian loan was charity rather than business. A Christian with savings could choose to help another Christian with his money. He could choose to directly gift the money to him. On a lesser note of charity, he could loan without any fee the money to that Christian. In such a situation the time value of money / opportunity cost / risk of never receiving back principal (Jubilee, default, etc) are the charity.
--
As for inflation / deflation, I am not aware of any situation possible without inflation / deflation. There are degrees to which it can be more gentle or severe, more violently cyclical or generally more stable, but there is no eliminating that the volume of money is always changing every day, no matter what you do. The early Christians certainly experienced debasing of money under many Roman emperors.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 09, 2020, 08:16:16 AMAnyhooo the list of quotes goes on and on all the way up till the 1500s where it changes from no interest whatsoever to pulling a switcharoo of 'just no big interest.'
In short, the doctrinal change is explained by the fact that the Church considered that money itself had morphed from a symbol of economic transaction to an actual good itself. This was indeed already a fact during the Renaissance, especially in the Italian city states, which eventually kick-started the banking system and the ascendancy of finance.
The real question is whether the old condemnation of usury can be applied to money as it is used today.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on June 09, 2020, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 09, 2020, 08:16:16 AMAnyhooo the list of quotes goes on and on all the way up till the 1500s where it changes from no interest whatsoever to pulling a switcharoo of 'just no big interest.'
In short, the doctrinal change is explained by the fact that the Church considered that money itself had morphed from a symbol of economic transaction to an actual good itself. This was indeed already a fact during the Renaissance, especially in the Italian city states, which eventually kick-started the banking system and the ascendancy of finance.
The real question is whether the old condemnation of usury can be applied to money as it is used today.
Courtesy of scholasticism. Individuals can decide if this is a good or bad fruit.
Regardless, they would be wrong. Money is both a good and a symbol and would clearly have been so during early Christendom. Think of all of the debased Roman coins or people clipping off edges of coins. The coin is a symbol but the metal it is made of is a good itself. Were it a mere symbol there would be no need to debase the metals or clip parts off. Of course money has historically been all sorts of goods, from coterie shells to salt and much in between, some valued for their utility itself, others for their function as an accounting system, or a mixture of both.
Of course money today is far more of a symbol than it is a good. Bank deposits are total figments of our imagination and have no physical anything underlying them. They are pure accounting machinations that exist only in our minds or in the computer databases we tally them in, but there is nothing at all "there." They are symbols of credibility that we have in one another collectively. So if the Church justified its switcharoo on usury due to an erroneous ahistorical argument, they would need to turn back to the prior continuous vociferous condemnations of all interest as money today has almost zero connection to being a good itself.
I'm still none the wiser as to what the doctrinal change was.
What did the Church teach about usury before the doctrinal change, and what does the Church teach now? Does an answer to this question even exist and if so, why is it so difficult to find the answer?
And what's all this about money being a good?
And if you're going to discuss how money is used today rather than during the Renaissance, it helps to consider whether you mean before or after the gold standard was abandoned by President Nixon, wasn't it?
But first things first. How, exactly, does the Church's new teaching on usury differ from what was taught before?
AC,
The Church has always taught that usury was mortally sinful. The question is then what does usury mean. Up until ~1,500 the Church taught any interest was usury. Afterwards they say only excessive interest is usury.
I know that Zippy Catholic used to blog extensively on usury. Here's his blog, https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/ (https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/)
Unfortunately, I believe he has passed away.
Edited to add: Here's his usury FAQ https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/ (https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/)
Lynne,
Thank you. Here is Zippy's lengthy FAQ on Usury.
https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/#1
R.I.P.
Edit: I hadn't refreshed my page to see that Lynne already added in the FAQ as an edit to her post. :cheeseheadbeer:
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 10, 2020, 03:11:40 AM
AC,
The Church has always taught that usury was mortally sinful. The question is then what does usury mean. Up until ~1,500 the Church taught any interest was usury. Afterwards they say only excessive interest is usury.
Ah, so that's it, in a nutshell. Thank you.
How interesting that the Church bent the knee to mammon at around the time that capitalism began to replace feudalism in Europe and the Reformation was tearing Christendom apart. Surely this is the moment at which everything began to go wrong.
How ironic that no matter how many explanations are given for the demise of Faith in the West, it turns out to have been all down to money.
Am I exaggerating? I'll have a look at Zippy's writings and decide later. (Thank you Lynne.)
Besides, there's those all important questions to consider - what is interest and when is it excessive?
(I still maintain a fee is not interest, despite what Gardener says.}
My definition of Usury is basically the Merchant of Venice variety.
As Nassim Nicholas Taleb would say; The lender must have 'Skin in the game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_in_the_Game_(book))'
If a lender lends money to somebody to say start a business or buy a house then the money is lent against that asset.
The Lender and the borrower must share the risk. If the borrower cannot pay then the lender takes that house ... BUT THAT'S IT. He cannot come after the borrower for the amount owed.
e.g. I borrow 100,000 from a bank to buy a house with say 5% down. This is agreed. There is a contract that I have to pay it back monthly over, say, 15 years. If I breach the terms of the contract and do not pay it back then the lender can take the house back but conversely I stop paying any more payments.
If by selling the house more money is recovered than is owed then the difference goes back to me.
The risk to the lender is that the borrower cannot pay and that the house is worth less in which case the lender loses out. I think this is called a Non-recourse loan (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/nonrecoursedebt.asp#:~:text=Non%2Drecourse%20debt%20is%20a,value%20of%20the%20defaulted%20amount.).
To me, Usury would be if the lender still came after the borrower for the full debt.
"But wait a moment. There's something else. This contract doesn't give you any blood at all. The words expressly specify "a pound of flesh." So take your penalty of a pound of flesh, but if you shed one drop of Christian blood when you cut it, the state of Venice will confiscate your land and property under Venetian law." - Merchant of Venice, Act 4 Scene 1
I consider another form of Usury to be that the lender goes to the Government and gets bailed out for being 'too big to fail'.
The following article discusses this:
https://shakespeareandbeyond.folger.edu/2017/12/05/usury-merchant-of-venice-london-triumph-stephen-alford/
According to the very first entry by Zippy -
Quote
Usury is lending money for profitable interest. The term "usury" often specifically refers to the interest itself – interest charged on a mutuum (personally guaranteed by the borrower) loan.
Is that a good definition of usury - lending money for profitable interest, in other words, not a fee? I think so.
Quote from: clau clau on June 10, 2020, 06:37:22 AM
I borrow 100,000 from a bank to buy a house with say 5% down. This is agreed. There is a contract that I have to pay it back monthly over, say, 15 years. If I breach the terms of the contract and do not pay it back then the lender can take the house back but conversely I stop paying any more payments.
If by selling the house more money is recovered than is owed then the difference goes back to me.[/b]
What's the rate of interest on the loan and what's the total sum of the interest you pay over the lifetime of the loan?
How much is it costing you to borrow 100,000 over 15 years? Does it seem reasonable?
QuoteThe real question is whether the old condemnation of usury can be applied to money as it is used today.
Yes it can. The problem is the definition. And there haven't been any real clarifications for a long time.
Usury is charging interest on a non-productive loan. Consumer debt, government debt, and student loans (for the most part) are usury.
Corporate bonds, mortgages, certain car loans are not usury.
All moral lending must be non-recourse. If an economic activity is not profitable and the loan defaults, then the "activity" is liquidated and the lender is limited to that only. If it comes up short, his loss. If there is money left over, it is given to the debtor.
This definition works and appears to comply with Catholic teaching. Otherwise you end up with problems of condemning a mortgage, but allowing rent. You have problems diffentiating investing vs. usury (as Gardener points out, it turns into word games.)
Note the rate of interest generally doesn't determine usury. The Federal Reserve is dealing in usury when it lends money at 0.25% interest, whereas a revenue bond paying 5% to build a toll road financed by the tolls is not usury.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 07:38:53 AM
Quote from: clau clau on June 10, 2020, 06:37:22 AM
I borrow 100,000 from a bank to buy a house with say 5% down. This is agreed. There is a contract that I have to pay it back monthly over, say, 15 years. If I breach the terms of the contract and do not pay it back then the lender can take the house back but conversely I stop paying any more payments.
If by selling the house more money is recovered than is owed then the difference goes back to me.[/b]
What's the rate of interest on the loan and what's the total sum of the interest you pay over the lifetime of the loan?
How much is it costing you to borrow 100,000 over 15 years? Does it seem reasonable?
What is reasonable? It is what it is. If I need a place to live I have 2 choices. Get a mortgage, or rent. Will getting a mortgage make my financial position more stable in the long-run. If I make a judgement that it will and I can afford the payments then I will get a mortgage. I might be wrong of course but that is life.
Yes, I've heard the 'usury is not usury if it's for a productive loan' excuse before.
Is a mortgage considered a productive loan simply because so many people have no choice but to take one out in order to buy somewhere to live and have to pay almost the value of the loan again as interest on top of the sum borrowed? Has Clau clau worked out how much in interest he is paying for a mortgage of 100.000 yet?
The 'usury for a productive loan is not usury' excuse is a cop-out. Just because such practices are essential for the functioning of Capitalism doesn't turn usury into 'not usury'.
This is where it began then, the capitulation of the men of the Church to the world. It began when the men of the Church (not the Church) decided to follow the money. Funny how it all comes down to money in the end.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 10:41:11 AM
Yes, I've heard the 'usury is not usury if it's for a productive loan' excuse before.
Is a mortgage considered a productive loan simply because so many people have no choice but to take one out in order to buy somewhere to live and have to pay almost the value of the loan again as interest on top of the sum borrowed? Has Clau clau worked out how much in interest he is paying for a mortgage of 100.000 yet?
The 'usury for a productive loan is not usury' excuse is a cop-out. Just because such practices are essential for the functioning of Capitalism doesn't turn usury into 'not usury'.
This is where it began then, the capitulation of the men of the Church to the world. It began when the men of the Church (not the Church) decided to follow the money. Funny how it all comes down to money in the end.
This is the position I agree with and you are blocked.
https://www.barnhardt.biz/2013/01/12/more-economic-theory-expanding-the-money-supply/
Quote from: clau clau on June 10, 2020, 10:26:37 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 07:38:53 AM
Quote from: clau clau on June 10, 2020, 06:37:22 AM
I borrow 100,000 from a bank to buy a house with say 5% down. This is agreed. There is a contract that I have to pay it back monthly over, say, 15 years. If I breach the terms of the contract and do not pay it back then the lender can take the house back but conversely I stop paying any more payments.
If by selling the house more money is recovered than is owed then the difference goes back to me.[/b]
What's the rate of interest on the loan and what's the total sum of the interest you pay over the lifetime of the loan?
How much is it costing you to borrow 100,000 over 15 years? Does it seem reasonable?
What is reasonable? It is what it is. If I need a place to live I have 2 choices. Get a mortgage, or rent. Will getting a mortgage make my financial position more stable in the long-run. If I make a judgement that it will and I can afford the payments then I will get a mortgage. I might be wrong of course but that is life.
Okay, if you can't afford to buy a house outright, you have no choice but to take out a mortgage. But is this really your choice, or is it because you live in a capitalist society in which usury is not only accepted, it is essential.
With a mortgage interest rate of 10 per cent, you would pay £10,000 per year interest for 15 years which amounts to £150,000. Is that right? That's £150,000 interest on top of the £100,000 you borrowed?
But mortgage interest rate are low at the moment and have been for a while. So at mortgage interest of 5 per cent, you would pay £75,000, which is still a lot. But it's worth remembering that mortgage interest rates have been much higher than that in the recent past too, as high as 15 per cent in the 1990s.
Your 'choice' is to pay exorbitant amounts of money in interest in order to buy a house, or rent. But is that really your choice, or is it a choice that someone else has made for you. At any rate, you have no other option.
It's a con.
Quote from: clau clau on June 10, 2020, 10:53:55 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 10:41:11 AM
Yes, I've heard the 'usury is not usury if it's for a productive loan' excuse before.
Is a mortgage considered a productive loan simply because so many people have no choice but to take one out in order to buy somewhere to live and have to pay almost the value of the loan again as interest on top of the sum borrowed? Has Clau clau worked out how much in interest he is paying for a mortgage of 100.000 yet?
The 'usury for a productive loan is not usury' excuse is a cop-out. Just because such practices are essential for the functioning of Capitalism doesn't turn usury into 'not usury'.
This is where it began then, the capitulation of the men of the Church to the world. It began when the men of the Church (not the Church) decided to follow the money. Funny how it all comes down to money in the end.
This is the position I agree with and you are blocked.
https://www.barnhardt.biz/2013/01/12/more-economic-theory-expanding-the-money-supply/
Good.
Keep justifying usury.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ[/yt]
Money
Pink Floyd
Money, get away
Get a good job with good pay and you're okay
Money, it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream
Think I'll buy me a football team
Money, get back
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off of my stack
Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet
Money, it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a raise it's no surprise that they're
Giving none away, away, away
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 10:41:11 AMThis is where it began then, the capitulation of the men of the Church to the world. It began when the men of the Church (not the Church) decided to follow the money. Funny how it all comes down to money in the end.
This doesn't quite work since the revised teaching on usury has the full backing of the Church's authority for the past 5 centuries at least.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 10:56:35 AM
With a mortgage interest rate of 10 per cent, you would pay £10,000 per year interest for 15 years which amounts to £150,000. Is that right? That's £150,000 interest on top of the £100,000 you borrowed?
Not necessarily. You can pay it off faster, then it is considerably less. This is what I did. Turned up at the bank and paid off great chunks of it, dressed in a flourescent building/cycling coat, and got funny looks from the cashier. What kind of an idiot pays off their mortgage (/sarcasm).
Paying off your mortgage faster sticks it to the bankers. The compound interest works in your favour instead of theirs.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 10:56:35 AM
It's a con.
If life gives you lemons then make lemonade.
I have no mortgage. Haven't had for 20 years. Paid off 2 houses in about 15 years.
Quote from: clau clau on June 10, 2020, 11:15:50 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 10:56:35 AM
With a mortgage interest rate of 10 per cent, you would pay £10,000 per year interest for 15 years which amounts to £150,000. Is that right? That's £150,000 interest on top of the £100,000 you borrowed?
Not necessarily, you can pay it off faster, then it is considerably less. This is what I did. Turned up at the bank and paid off great chunks of it, dressed in a flourescent building/cycling coat, and got funny looks from the cashier. What kind of an idiot pays off their mortgage (/sarcasm).
Paying off your mortgage faster sticks it to the bankers. The compound interest works in your favour instead of theirs.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 10:56:35 AM
It's a con.
If life gives you lemons then make lemonade.
I have no mortgage. Haven't had for 20 years. Paid off 2 houses in about 15 years.
Don't talk to me.
Vix Pervenit is the Doctrine of the Catholic Church on the subject of Usury. Usury is at the heart of what ails modern economies and modern societies, and Fractional Reserve Central Banking in particular (such as only began after the Church, through Protestantism, was taken out of the way of the civil power, and with separation of Church and State, and all) is inherently, intrinsically, and gravely usurious. Usury has been rejected in both Old and New Testaments, by the Lord and by His Prophets, by several Popes, even recent Popes, and also Ecumenical Councils.
"I. The nature of the sin called usury has its proper place and origin in a loan contract. This financial contract between consenting parties demands, by its very nature, that one return to another only as much as he has received. The sin rests on the fact that sometimes the creditor desires more than he has given. Therefore he contends some gain is owed him beyond that which he loaned, but any gain which exceeds the amount he gave is illicit and usurious.
II. One cannot condone the sin of usury by arguing that the gain is not great or excessive, but rather moderate or small; neither can it be condoned by arguing that the borrower is rich; nor even by arguing that the money borrowed is not left idle, but is spent usefully, either to increase one's fortune, to purchase new estates, or to engage in business transactions. The law governing loans consists necessarily in the equality of what is given and returned; once the equality has been established, whoever demands more than that violates the terms of the loan. Therefore if one receives interest, he must make restitution according to the commutative bond of justice; its function in human contracts is to assure equality for each one. This law is to be observed in a holy manner. If not observed exactly, reparation must be made.
III. By these remarks, however, We do not deny that at times together with the loan contract certain other titles-which are not at all intrinsic to the contract-may run parallel with it. From these other titles, entirely just and legitimate reasons arise to demand something over and above the amount due on the contract. Nor is it denied that it is very often possible for someone, by means of contracts differing entirely from loans, to spend and invest money legitimately either to provide oneself with an annual income or to engage in legitimate trade and business. From these types of contracts honest gain may be made.
IV. There are many different contracts of this kind. In these contracts, if equality is not maintained, whatever is received over and above what is fair is a real injustice. Even though it may not fall under the precise rubric of usury (since all reciprocity, both open and hidden, is absent), restitution is obligated. Thus if everything is done correctly and weighed in the scales of justice, these same legitimate contracts suffice to provide a standard and a principle for engaging in commerce and fruitful business for the common good. Christian minds should not think that gainful commerce can flourish by usuries or other similar injustices. On the contrary We learn from divine Revelation that justice raises up nations; sin, however, makes nations miserable.
V. But you must diligently consider this, that some will falsely and rashly persuade themselves-and such people can be found anywhere-that together with loan contracts there are other legitimate titles or, excepting loan contracts, they might convince themselves that other just contracts exist, for which it is permissible to receive a moderate amount of interest. Should any one think like this, he will oppose not only the judgment of the Catholic Church on usury, but also common human sense and natural reason. Everyone knows that man is obliged in many instances to help his fellows with a simple, plain loan. Christ Himself teaches this: "Do not refuse to lend to him who asks you." In many circumstances, no other true and just contract may be possible except for a loan. Whoever therefore wishes to follow his conscience must first diligently inquire if, along with the loan, another category exists by means of which the gain he seeks may be lawfully attained.
4. This is how the Cardinals and theologians and the men most conversant with the canons, whose advice We had asked for in this most serious business, explained their opinions. Also We devoted our private study to this matter before the congregations were convened, while they were in session, and again after they had been held; for We read the opinions of these outstanding men most diligently. Because of this, We approve and confirm whatever is contained in the opinions above, since the professors of Canon Law and Theology, scriptural evidence, the decrees of previous popes, and the authority of Church councils and the Fathers all seem to enjoin it. Besides, We certainly know the authors who hold the opposite opinions and also those who either support and defend those authors or at least who seem to give them consideration. We are also aware that the theologians of regions neighboring those in which the controversy had its origin undertook the defense of the truth with wisdom and seriousness."
Vix Pervenit On Usury and Other Dishonest Profits Pope Benedict XIV - 1745
...Given in Rome at St. Mary Major, November 1, 1745, the sixth year of Our Pontificate. https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben14/b14vixpe.htm
What I think VO was getting at by saying money was transformed into a good is what Karl Polanyi called the commoditization of money (along with land and labour he calls these "fictitious commodities," meaning they are not goods produced for sale, naturally speaking). Lending at interest is a species of money commoditization, wherein one pays (in the future) for the use of money (in the present); another is currency speculation.
In the Catholic middle ages, land, labour and money were not commoditized to nearly the extent they are today. I feel Polanyi offers a much broader basis for a productive critique of the modern economy than simply homing in on usury.
Quote from: Graham on June 10, 2020, 11:35:38 AM
What I think VO was getting at by saying money was transformed into a good is what Karl Polanyi called the commoditization of money (along with land and labour he calls these "fictitious commodities," meaning they are not goods produced for sale, naturally speaking). Lending at interest is a species of money commoditization, wherein one pays (in the future) for the use of money (in the present); another is currency speculation.
In the Catholic middle ages, land, labour and money were not commoditized to nearly the extent they are today. I feel Polanyi offers a much broader basis for a productive critique of the modern economy than simply homing in on usury.
Can you say more about how "money was transformed into a good"?
And what was money before it was a 'good'?
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on June 10, 2020, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 10:41:11 AMThis is where it began then, the capitulation of the men of the Church to the world. It began when the men of the Church (not the Church) decided to follow the money. Funny how it all comes down to money in the end.
This doesn't quite work since the revised teaching on usury has the full backing of the Church's authority for the past 5 centuries at least.
I've been saying for some time that Vatican II was the revolt warned about by St Paul in 2Thess:2.
Could it be that the revolt began much earlier than that, back in the year 1500, when the Church changed her teaching on usury in order to accommodate the rise of Capitalism that followed the Protestant Reformation?
If changing Her teaching is what the Church actually did, that is.
See Xavier's post, which I haven't managed to digest yet.
QuoteWith a mortgage interest rate of 10 per cent, you would pay £10,000 per year interest for 15 years which amounts to £150,000. Is that right? That's £150,000 interest on top of the £100,000 you borrowed?
And you would pay more in rent. But rent is ok.
How about "rent to own" where you pay rent, and a little extra to buyout the owner over 20 years? Yeah, that's fine.
But a non-recourse mortgage is not ok? Since serious work on usury in the Church hasn't happened for something like 500 years, this needs to be updated.
Not usury: Non-recourse mortgage. Means if you can't pay, the lender can only seize the house and you walk. After the house is sold off, any excess is returned to the debtor.
Usury: Mortgage that has recourse. If you can't pay, you become a debt slave and the lender can seize part of your wages, assuming selling the house doesn't cover the debt. That is usury and it is responsible for the destruction of our economy.
Here's the deal. Usury is a really big problem, second only to inflation in the amount of damage it does. Consider that 99% of government debt is usury. Corporate debt to finance stock buy-backs are usury. Usury exists, and it is evil. But you have to understand WHY it is evil. For a more in-depth treatment, you can purchase a copy of my world famous book,
The Economics of Catholic Subsidiarity on Amazon.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on June 10, 2020, 11:42:05 AM
Quote from: Graham on June 10, 2020, 11:35:38 AM
What I think VO was getting at by saying money was transformed into a good is what Karl Polanyi called the commoditization of money (along with land and labour he calls these "fictitious commodities," meaning they are not goods produced for sale, naturally speaking). Lending at interest is a species of money commoditization, wherein one pays (in the future) for the use of money (in the present); another is currency speculation.
In the Catholic middle ages, land, labour and money were not commoditized to nearly the extent they are today. I feel Polanyi offers a much broader basis for a productive critique of the modern economy than simply homing in on usury.
Can you say more about how "money was transformed into a good"?
And what was money before it was a 'good'?
The commodification of money is for our purposes basically a different way of understanding usury and its negative effects, more of a sociological or anthropological perspective than a strictly economic or moral one. Money is commodified when markets are created for its sale and purchase. In usury, the "price" of money is the interest rate. Unlike the sale and purchase of rugs, kettles, cars or chairs, etc., money in itself is not naturally a commodity (something that is produced for sale or purchase on the market).
Polanyi grouped it with 2 other fictitious commodities, namely land and labour, and what I am promoting is that the deleterious social effects of money commodification be understood as part of this bundle rather than in isolation.
Polanyi developed this insight into a concept of "embeddedness," which described how prior to the full bore utopian pursuit of free markets beginning in the 18th Century, economic activity was universally a facet of social activity, culture, and religious values. As the free market ideology ascended this situation reversed. Land, for instance, instead of ancestral home, patria or territory, was entirely subsumed into real estate markets and on spec development. The disembedding of markets and their takeover and conditioning of the social space was ruinous for cultural stability.
For further reading I recommend
The Great Transformation by Polanyi as well as his collection of shorter writings called
Primitive, Archaic, and Modern Economies which contains a gem of an essay on Aristotle's economics.
From the encyclical that Xavier helpfully posted:
QuoteIII. By these remarks, however, We do not deny that at times together with the loan contract certain other titles-which are not at all intrinsic to the contract-may run parallel with it. From these other titles, entirely just and legitimate reasons arise to demand something over and above the amount due on the contract.
IV. There are many different contracts of this kind. In these contracts, if equality is not maintained, whatever is received over and above what is fair is a real injustice.
That is the camel's nose under the tent. The first two parts vociferously condemn usury and then immediately, without even blinking, comes the switcharoo through logic games which then undoes what was one second prior condemned. As long as the 'over and above' is 'fair' then it is not usury.
We've seen this switcharoo many times undoing prior Catholic teaching which was clear and consistent. If you think it is a new trick of the 'modernists' of VII then you are mistaken.
James,
Under your framework I do not follow why thus government & corporate debt are usury. Both of those are non-recourse, especially government debt. If the USA defaults on its Treasuries there is nothing the creditor can do. A corporate's bonds are backed by the assets of company and creditors have no recourse to the owners of the company (such as to seize their personal houses were the assets of the company insufficient to cover a defaulted loan). Neither of those are recourse loans such as those which will place you in debtor's prison or place liens upon future earnings.
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 10, 2020, 04:37:30 PM
From the encyclical that Xavier helpfully posted:
QuoteIII. By these remarks, however, We do not deny that at times together with the loan contract certain other titles-which are not at all intrinsic to the contract-may run parallel with it. From these other titles, entirely just and legitimate reasons arise to demand something over and above the amount due on the contract.
IV. There are many different contracts of this kind. In these contracts, if equality is not maintained, whatever is received over and above what is fair is a real injustice.
That is the camel's nose under the tent. The first two parts vociferously condemn usury and then immediately, without even blinking, comes the switcharoo through logic games which then undoes what was one second prior condemned. As long as the 'over and above' is 'fair' then it is not usury.
We've seen this switcharoo many times undoing prior Catholic teaching which was clear and consistent. If you think it is a new trick of the 'modernists' of VII then you are mistaken.
So you wouldnt even accept 1% interest rate?
Quote from: SemproniusSo you wouldnt even accept 1% interest rate?
I would not.
The problem is that we have already accepted that an entire economic class exists for the lending of money, as a
business. This is the essence of usury, and the first thing you have to throw out when approaching the issue. The amount of interest is completely irrelevant.
Let's say you have a rich uncle, and you ask him for a loan in order to start a business. He writes a check for $100k, your business is successful, and you pay him back $100k, no more and no less. That is justice. If he profits from that loan, that is a sin. His loan was an act of charity, not business. Any other nature of a loan is usury and sinful.
Now, alternatively, if your uncle
does want to do business, and not perform an act of charity, he could choose to invest in your business. He
buys a $100k share in your company and is entitled to a proportionate share in the profits. In this case, he does not get his $100k back, unless someone else is willing to buy his share, at which point he stops receiving dividends. But he doesn't get to have his cake and eat it too.
Sempronius,
My goal should be to do whatever is God's will. With respect to usury that is what we are attempting to better understand. The early Christians seem unanimous in teaching that no interest is acceptable.
If we were to entirely ignore God and have Sim City type powers to construct society as we want, I still would ban all interest. Loans should be exclusively for purposes of charity - not as great as a direct gift but certainly far better than nothing). Turning lending from charity into a business totally wrecks society's monetary system and in due time society itself. It blows prices of assets way up making them unobtainable except through usury, it enriches a small portion of society (the usurers) at the expense of all others. The usurers then use their far disproportionate wealth to control society as they see fit while the vast majority wallow in debt slavery.
It also wrecks businesses as well as the people whom borrow are usually those who win. Dominos and McDonalds and Wal-Mart can expand across the planet in just a couple decades not because their businesses are so profitable that they saved up enough excess cash from their bonanza operations to finance such expansion, but rather they merely borrowed hundreds of millions / billions which allowed them to open up tens of stores in months whereas a mom'n'pop might need years of successful savings before they could have enough capital to invest in a second shop.
This results in a few people managing hundreds of billions worth of annual economic transactions and employing millions and millions of people. It destroys local operations and centralizes control in lands far away. Local matters and local culture get trounced under the chain stores which expanded through the usurer'
s loans.
I agree with Padraig that the only appropriate use for money in business terms is equity investment (although I am highly skeptical of the stock market - I think investment should again be more local and tangible rather than ephemeral and ethereal). Loans should be exclusively the realm of charity.
i think this is the most well researched article on usury.
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm)
Some highlights:
No absolute prohibition can be found in the Old Testament; at most, Exodus 22:25, and Deuteronomy 23:19-20, forbid the taking of interest by one Jew from another.
In the Christian era, the New Testament is silent on the subject; the passage in St. Luke (vi, 34, 35), which some persons interpret as a condemnation of interest, is only an exhortation to general and disinterested benevolence.
Until the fourth century all that can be inferred from the Fathers and ecclesiastical writers is that it is contrary to mercy and humanity to demand interest from a poor and needy man. The vehement denunciation of the Fathers of the fourth and fifth centuries were called forth by the moral decadence and avarice of the time, and we cannot find in them any expression of a general doctrine on this point; nor do the Fathers of the following centuries say anything remarkable on usury; they simply protest against the exploitation of misfortune
The question of moderate rates of interest seems scarcely to have presented itself to their minds as a matter of discussion.
It is a curious fact that for a long time impunity in such matters was granted to Jews. The Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215), c. 27, only forbids them to exact excessive interest. Urban III, c. 12, "De usuris" (V. 19)
Lending money at interest gives us the opportunity to exploit the passions or necessities of other men by compelling them to submit to ruinous conditions; men are robbed and left destitute under the pretext of charity. Such is the usury against which the Fathers of the Church have always protested, and which is universally condemned at the present day
Quote from: Padraig on June 11, 2020, 06:28:30 AM
Quote from: SemproniusSo you wouldnt even accept 1% interest rate?
I would not.
The problem is that we have already accepted that an entire economic class exists for the lending of money, as a business. This is the essence of usury, and the first thing you have to throw out when approaching the issue. The amount of interest is completely irrelevant.
Let's say you have a rich uncle, and you ask him for a loan in order to start a business. He writes a check for $100k, your business is successful, and you pay him back $100k, no more and no less. That is justice. If he profits from that loan, that is a sin. His loan was an act of charity, not business. Any other nature of a loan is usury and sinful.
Now, alternatively, if your uncle does want to do business, and not perform an act of charity, he could choose to invest in your business. He buys a $100k share in your company and is entitled to a proportionate share in the profits. In this case, he does not get his $100k back, unless someone else is willing to buy his share, at which point he stops receiving dividends. But he doesn't get to have his cake and eat it too.
So how would students go to universities then? In my country they take loans for studies and pay 1% rent. What would they do in a free usury society?
Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on June 11, 2020, 06:56:52 AM
Sempronius,
My goal should be to do whatever is God's will. With respect to usury that is what we are attempting to better understand. The early Christians seem unanimous in teaching that no interest is acceptable.
If we were to entirely ignore God and have Sim City type powers to construct society as we want, I still would ban all interest. Loans should be exclusively for purposes of charity - not as great as a direct gift but certainly far better than nothing). Turning lending from charity into a business totally wrecks society's monetary system and in due time society itself. It blows prices of assets way up making them unobtainable except through usury, it enriches a small portion of society (the usurers) at the expense of all others. The usurers then use their far disproportionate wealth to control society as they see fit while the vast majority wallow in debt slavery.
It also wrecks businesses as well as the people whom borrow are usually those who win. Dominos and McDonalds and Wal-Mart can expand across the planet in just a couple decades not because their businesses are so profitable that they saved up enough excess cash from their bonanza operations to finance such expansion, but rather they merely borrowed hundreds of millions / billions which allowed them to open up tens of stores in months whereas a mom'n'pop might need years of successful savings before they could have enough capital to invest in a second shop.
This results in a few people managing hundreds of billions worth of annual economic transactions and employing millions and millions of people. It destroys local operations and centralizes control in lands far away. Local matters and local culture get trounced under the chain stores which expanded through the usurer'
s loans.
I agree with Padraig that the only appropriate use for money in business terms is equity investment (although I am highly skeptical of the stock market - I think investment should again be more local and tangible rather than ephemeral and ethereal). Loans should be exclusively the realm of charity.
The article I posted talks about differences between charity and justice. Its charitable of me to lend a man money without interest. But I dont have a moral obligation to do that. I can ask for a reasonable sum in order to keep my business going (lets say I lend money to poor farmers, and I need some extra money to pay my staffers that handles their applications)
Sure, it would be nice if everything were local, but modern technology allows me to have contact with the entire world and I can do business with them.
Is it wrong, then, to earn interest on investments? For example, my mutual fund has an approximate return of 10% a year. That compounds. One of the arguments against usury is the unnatural copulation of money. Also, is it sinful to be in debt? I have a mortgage, student loans, and just got a home improvement loan. A lot of negative there being paid back at interest.
QuoteUnder your framework I do not follow why thus government & corporate debt are usury. Both of those are non-recourse, especially government debt.
Because you are charging for the use of money, which is usury. There is no economic increase.
So a non-recourse mortgage is not usury because the loan is tied to the house. It is a production loan.
A recourse mortgage is tied to the house, but it is also tied to unrelated economic activities, e.g. your wages if you default. That turns it into usury.
99% of government debt is not tied to economic increase. You especially see this with transfer payments. Revenue bonds tied to the construction of a toll road, and paid off via the tolls is a rare case where government debt is not usury. You are not charging for the use of money, you would instead be participating in the economic return from the road. This can conveniently be called your interest, or simply interest, vs. usury.
Corporate debt to fund stock buybacks also is not tied to economic production. There is no increase, so your "interest" by definition is zero.
I believe usury violates the cardinal virtue of Prudence. Aligning yourself with reality. It also violates Justice for obvious reasons.
Sempronius,
QuoteSo how would students go to universities then? In my country they take loans for studies and pay 1% rent. What would they do in a free usury society?
Without usury the price of college would be cheap. Usury dramatically increases the price of all things as buyers front-load 5, 10, 30 years of future earnings to purchase something right now. It blows prices up today. Were it not possible to front-load 10 years' of future earnings into a college tuition then professors would be forced to charge only what a person can pay today. So for example, my father went to M.I.T. and paid his own tuition working as a cook at a Mexican restaurant. Such is laughably impossible today because of usury. The professors simply charge far too much because they know they can rope people into dedicating 10 years of (very uncertain) future earnings and they can use it all right now to buy more Mercedes and rental properties.
Of course I am being a bit facetious as it is not exclusively the professors. Universities are wanton spendthrifts with their outsized revenues, hiring all sorts of valueless employees and constructing extravagant facilities, none of which need exist and indeed we see the top universities did without these things for almost a full millennia yet provided far superior education than now.
I also call into question how many people should be going to university anyways. Far too much time & money wasted on educations for people who have no business being in university (I include myself in that category). But that is a separate topic from usury.
QuoteIs it wrong, then, to earn interest on investments? For example, my mutual fund has an approximate return of 10% a year. That compounds. One of the arguments against usury is the unnatural copulation of money. Also, is it sinful to be in debt? I have a mortgage, student loans, and just got a home improvement loan. A lot of negative there being paid back at interest.
Imagine you own Heinrich's Beerhaus and do good business. Each year you re-invest your earnings into the Beerhaus to expand its operations and thus increase your earnings exponentially by the amount invested. This is, theoretically, what investment in stocks would be akin to. In practice it is far more complex than that and there is a lot of tomfoolery going on that makes much of equity investment bogus, but the concept with investment in businesses is that the exponential returns come from exponential earnings. There are many limits to this, however (eventually businesses or whole industries cannot increase their earnings by further expansion - the industry needs no further investment).
Presumably your mutual fund is also invested in bonds which are loans to corporations or governments at interest and the question of whether all interest is usurious or not is what is being discussed. Similarly all bank savings accounts fall into the same position as a bank "deposit" is in reality a loan to the bank at interest. Checking accounts however pay no interest.
Some early Christians exhorted to avoid borrowing money but I have not seen a teaching that borrowing from usurers is itself sinful (although I don't know why it isn't considered being accessory to sin by partaking, shrug). Under the Federal Reserve System of the modern monetary system I could make a good argument that borrowing is sinful but the Church seems disinterested so who am I to come up with new teachings.
Quote from: Padraig on June 11, 2020, 06:28:30 AM
Let's say you have a rich uncle, and you ask him for a loan in order to start a business. He writes a check for $100k, your business is successful, and you pay him back $100k, no more and no less. That is justice. If he profits from that loan, that is a sin. His loan was an act of charity, not business. Any other nature of a loan is usury and sinful.
Then your uncle will never make a loan to anyone who is not a sure-fire bet. And
there are no sure-fire bets.
Nobody would lend money to Steve Jobs, or Mark Zuckerberg or some ugly chink like Jack Ma. He looks like a peasant in China who would repair your shoes. People invest in those ideas because of the spectacular returns they can make when they pick a winner.
Your uncle should just give you the $100k and write it off. Chances are he will never see it again.
If you lend money to a dot.com bookstore in 1992 there is a
tiny chance it is going to be successful. Most start-up businesses fail. Therefore no uncles would ever make loans, they might call them "loans" but they would be gifts. Sensible uncles who wanted to stay rich would just buy productive assets and give money from their accumulated wealth to their nephews, who would then have no incentive to grow a business. You'd have a permanent ruling class of rich people owning all of the productive assets for generation unto generation occasionally impoverishing themselves through war, drunkenness, gambling.
You'd have only low risk, low return businesses like dry cleaners, garages, toilet paper factories, farms. The first world would look like Turkey and Turkey would look like Bangladesh.
This frightened me somewhat.
3000 people suddenly, no warning were put into harsh lockdown. Armed police are enforcing this and the residents are being tested door to door.
This is Melbourne, a 21st century modern city under armed guard in their homes.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/07/melbourne-victoria-hard-lockdown-coronavirus-covid-public-housing
Quote from: diaduit on July 08, 2020, 05:15:28 PM
This frightened me somewhat.
3000 people suddenly, no warning were put into harsh lockdown. Armed police are enforcing this and the residents are being tested door to door.
This is Melbourne, a 21st century modern city under armed guard in their homes.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/07/melbourne-victoria-hard-lockdown-coronavirus-covid-public-housing
This is the second phase of the Covid psyop, a series of mini lockdowns, rolled out globally. Remember how this was discussed earlier on the thread? It's happening.
It's winter in Australia. We can expect more lockdowns, only much harsher this time, to be rolled out across the north when summer ends here. I agree, it's seriously scary and sinister.
More idiocy from the black revolutionaries in Rhodesia.
Used to be a fabulous country once.
If whites were running it today they would have 50 such machines in the country, not three broken ones. And local engineers to fix them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53322740
This guy is a filet knife, carving up the big, stinky fish that is "Covid 19."
[yt]https://youtu.be/EhYX8RzyMC4[/yt]
Quote from: Greg on July 10, 2020, 10:27:28 PM
More idiocy from the black revolutionaries in Rhodesia.
Used to be a fabulous country once.
If whites were running it today they would have 50 such machines in the country, not three broken ones. And local engineers to fix them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53322740
Remember that stuff at school with the Holy Childhood and the Crusade of Rescue.
I remember there was a box with 4 sides and 4 African countries. It was something like Ethiopia, Somalia, Mozambique, Congo etc ...
I'm beginning to think that this was just an earlier version of communist propaganda. Were these countries poor for genuine reasons or because the corrupt scum running them were just a bunch of communists fighting endless wars.
Did all that money we collected really make any difference?
Will these boxes in the future have South Africa, Zimbabwe, Angola (All shitholes due to communist takeover)
And it is not just white people. Look how Idi Amin treated the Asians. They came over here and every single one of them was a credit to the UK.
This Chinese guy in this video sums it up the situation perfectly. Look at the expression on the black guys face. What a total waste of space.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsyHbj_SHGA[/yt]
edit:Here's the whole thing.
Empire of Dust (looks quite interesting) - hope it's ok, not vetted.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSuZGlqL34[/yt]
It really was the White Man's Burden.
Now the Chinese have taken it on.
Take up the White Man's burden—
Send forth the best ye breed—
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness
On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.
Take up the White Man's burden—
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain.
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.
Take up the White Man's burden—
The savage wars of peace—
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch Sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.
Take up the White Man's burden—
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper—
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go make them with your living,
And mark them with your dead!
Take up the White Man's burden—
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:—
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"
Take up the White Man's burden—
Ye dare not stoop to less—
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your Gods and you.
Take up the White Man's burden—
Have done with childish days—
The lightly profferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!
The encounter I had with a ex-pat European from the Belgian Congo is the following; I was at the airport in Miami, picking up one of my family members; I met up with him and a woman who spoke only French; I didn't speak the language so I could only get a general idea what she was saying to me; but she appeared in distress, so we took her home and she was able to get in touch with her husband latter on that night. What happened was that her husband was sailing from Holland and was supposed to have arrived in Miami before she did, and have met her at the airport. Her husband came by the house the next day and we (my family) had a nice visit with him; he was born in the Belgian Congo, and had a Coffee roasting plant and was quite successful; when the Congo gained their independence, the whites were expelled from the country; his roasting plant was taken over by a native Congolese, who roasted and sold the coffee that the man had in his warehouse; spent all the money and had to close the plant down, because he did not save any money to buy new inventory! This is pretty much the story of African independence in a nutshell.
A priest friend of mine who toured some of the African countries told me that there is good hope for the future of Kenya, because the people are very hard working; Nigeria is hopeless, because the people do not like to work and prefer to make money on some scam.
Quote from: Greg on July 21, 2020, 09:36:40 AM
It really was the White Man's Burden.
Now the Chinese have taken it on.
Take up the White Man's burden—
Send forth the best ye breed—
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness
On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.
Take up the White Man's burden—
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain.
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.
Take up the White Man's burden—
The savage wars of peace—
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch Sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.
Take up the White Man's burden—
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper—
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go make them with your living,
And mark them with your dead!
Take up the White Man's burden—
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:—
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"
Take up the White Man's burden—
Ye dare not stoop to less—
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your Gods and you.
Take up the White Man's burden—
Have done with childish days—
The lightly profferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!
Careful quoting Kipling. He was a mason you know. Ask Frank.
I know he was a Mason.
But the poem is correct.
Quote from: Greg on July 21, 2020, 01:06:40 PM
I know he was a Mason.
But the poem is correct.
Sorry, I forgot the </sarcasm> tag.
context: http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=23930.msg502215#msg502215
Quote from: Michael Wilson on July 21, 2020, 09:52:39 AM
A priest friend of mine who toured some of the African countries.
Archbishop Levebre!
This guy is very good about China. He lived there for 14 years, Chinese wife and he is very honest about what goes on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaBg06osKXY
Quote from: Greg on July 23, 2020, 04:42:21 AM
This guy is very good about China. He lived there for 14 years, Chinese wife and he is very honest about what goes on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaBg06osKXY
I've watched a bunch of his videos. They are very good. The one comparing China vs Japan is worth watching, for example. He doesn't get political, for obvious reasons.
One interesting fact I learned from him: There are "recycling centers" in China that pay above-market for your used brand-name bottles of Coke and so forth. Then they refill them with cheap knockoffs. So when you go into a store, you can't be sure that those bottles are what they say they are.
The Chinese really are money grubbing robots who will do anything for a buck. Poison baby milk, diseased meat, selling baby parts.
Shows you how bad we could get here if the leftists win power. I've no reason to believe that we are any more intrinsically moral.
Look how far the Irish have fallen and how quickly. And the Italians and Portuguese.
I hope death gets me first.
I am going to the supermarket now in full protective suit, googles, gloves and rubber boots but without a mask using the government exemption that I am exempt from wearing a mask because of the emotional stress it will cause me.
Phuck these idiots. Will post a picture later.
Oh do.
Ive been in and out a couple of times now and nothing said. My son went in yesterday with an airsoft mask, typical teen he was all anxious but I encouraged him to take the piss of this rule if you can't just not go without a mask. He was walking 10 ft tall when he came out.
Go to Sainsburys or Asda.
They've said they won't enforce mask wearing.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8554837/Sainsburys-Asda-say-WONT-enforce-facemasks-rules-new-law-comes.html
I went to Aldi.
They didn't enforce it either.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nE49kViCvDyqkjB59
https://photos.app.goo.gl/yiJt3kt1aLz9hFdt5
Quote from: Greg on July 24, 2020, 05:18:55 AM
I went to Aldi.
They didn't enforce it either.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nE49kViCvDyqkjB59
https://photos.app.goo.gl/yiJt3kt1aLz9hFdt5
LOL - you lunatic :D Did you get any comments?
Well done Greg.
We should have a competition on who took the piss out of 'mandatory mask' thread.
Quote from: Frank on July 24, 2020, 06:18:01 AM
Quote from: Greg on July 24, 2020, 05:18:55 AM
I went to Aldi.
They didn't enforce it either.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nE49kViCvDyqkjB59
https://photos.app.goo.gl/yiJt3kt1aLz9hFdt5
LOL - you lunatic :D Did you get any comments?
No nothing. People are disgusting cowards.
That is why 90% of them are wearing masks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeVf8Bq1knk
It's funny. I hated Punk Rock as a kid. I thought it was stupid, inane, cretinous.
Where are all those rebels today who pierced their faces, dyed their hair, tore their clothes and rebelled against authority back then?
Wearing masks in the supermarket, like obedient little drones. Plodding around in their late 50s and early 60s.
Quote from: Greg on July 24, 2020, 07:59:44 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeVf8Bq1knk
Sam Vaknin, eh. Interesting that he should describe the experience of being a recipient of modern medical 'care' as akin to psychological torture. Sam Vaknin has often collaborated with Richard Grannon whose videos about narcissism are well worth a look.
We should know our enemies, right. Well given that the entire Covid scamdemic bears all the hallmarks of a global psychological operation, it pays to understand how these people operate. Studying psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists is an ideal way to figure this out.
This is psychological warfare. Physical defences will help deter those who come to steal the contents of your garage. But they won't work against the smiling health professional who tells you to go into lockdown because you've declared yourself 'vulnerable', or who asks sweetly why you are refusing the vaccine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NKOdVSkrOw
Quote from: Greg on July 24, 2020, 05:18:55 AM
I went to Aldi.
They didn't enforce it either.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nE49kViCvDyqkjB59
https://photos.app.goo.gl/yiJt3kt1aLz9hFdt5
:rofl: This is amazing, thank you for dunking on these idiots.
Quote from: diaduit on July 24, 2020, 03:26:05 AM
Oh do.
Ive been in and out a couple of times now and nothing said. My son went in yesterday with an airsoft mask, typical teen he was all anxious but I encouraged him to take the piss of this rule if you can't just not go without a mask. He was walking 10 ft tall when he came out.
Good for you for helping develop his character.
[yt]https://youtu.be/-fhGV1LxeKQ[/yt]
While we get all pissed about masks:
QuoteHouse Speaker Nancy Pelosi just revealed that Congressional Democrats not only won't budge on their $3 trillion stimulus package passed by the House in May - she's upped the demand to $3.4 trillion in order to 'settle' on a deal.
Asked by CNN's Manu Raju if she still wants a stimulus deal this week, and if she has a price tag she'd be willing to settle on, Pelosi replied "Yeah, $3.4 trillion."
White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany described Pelosi's new demand as 'a mockery' of the process.
Meanwhile, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) - who has called the $3 trillion Democratic proposal "another big laundry list" - has flat out rejected the left's package, and has instead defended the Senate GOP's $1 trillion stimulus bill.
These are such stratospheric numbers that I can't even have a rational discussion about them with anyone.
Hell why not just make it 50 trillion dollars?
Hyperinflation here we come.
Gold will explode above $10,000 an once within a year if this crazy sh*t continues.
And what do you know. Gold and Silver are taking off like rockets:
QuoteAnd with gold surging on Tuesday, blasting above $2000 and hitting a new all time high earlier today, increasingly more investors are turning their attention to silver, which just hit $27/oz...
... and which according to BofA, is set to double from here to $50 "in the short term." More importantly, it increasingly appears that the biggest market moving force of today's batshit insane market, the Robinhood army, is getting on board with both gold and silver...
One final point, and perhaps the explanation for all of the above - the devastation of the dollar continued apace, with the BBDXY sliding sharply as traders frontrun what now appear to be trillions in fiscal stimulus coming from US congress in 2020 and coming years.
QuoteEven the staunchest gold bugs will be surprised by how high the price of gold rises, and how quickly it gets there. A Wile E. Coyote moment for the dollar is fast approaching."
Ya, the world economy as we have known it is coming to an end. When this has reached its end, communism is going to make a big time come back.
When Covid-19 Version 2.0 hits, Katie bar the door.
Went to the supermarket again yesterday (Tesco). 95% had masks on. I did not. Nobody said anything.
Later I went to Aldi, same thing. Vast majority of punters still wearing masks. Some of the staff behind screens on the checkout were not.
Same here with a slight increase in non mask wearing
Quote from: King Wenceslas on August 05, 2020, 04:48:28 PM
And what do you know. Gold and Silver are taking off like rockets:
QuoteAnd with gold surging on Tuesday, blasting above $2000 and hitting a new all time high earlier today, increasingly more investors are turning their attention to silver, which just hit $27/oz...
... and which according to BofA, is set to double from here to $50 "in the short term." More importantly, it increasingly appears that the biggest market moving force of today's batshit insane market, the Robinhood army, is getting on board with both gold and silver...
One final point, and perhaps the explanation for all of the above - the devastation of the dollar continued apace, with the BBDXY sliding sharply as traders frontrun what now appear to be trillions in fiscal stimulus coming from US congress in 2020 and coming years.
QuoteEven the staunchest gold bugs will be surprised by how high the price of gold rises, and how quickly it gets there. A Wile E. Coyote moment for the dollar is fast approaching."
Ya, the world economy as we have known it is coming to an end. When this has reached its end, communism is going to make a big time come back.
When Covid-19 Version 2.0 hits, Katie bar the door.
In March when silver hit a 12 year low of less than $12 who was it that said silver could go to $5? Was he ever wrong. I should have known anyway.
I switched to online shopping and home deliveries since the muzzle wearing began and haven't set foot in a supermarket since. There is an open air market within easy walking distance for fresh food of all kinds and if I need to pick up some extra milk or tobacco, I pop into my local shop for 5 minutes once a week wearing a scarf that pretends to be a mask.
Shopping in Sainsbury's or Tesco or wherever, with 95% of customers wearing masks, is too awful to think about. I find the sight of them quite disturbing. Luckily only about 10% of people in the streets are wearing them.
I just ignore them like they are zombies who cannot see me.
But zombies can see you and I don't trust myself not to lose my temper or have some kind of meltdown at the sight of so many of them.
Has anyone noticed pavement widening happening around them, as if they're trying to squeeze out cars? At the moment there are only barriers placed on both sides of the road, reducing it to a single lane for traffic, and the extra space is filled with tables in front of pubs and cafes where people do sit down at and eat. No actual work has been done on the road surface.
I've also noticed more small shops and sandwich bars being boarded up recently, and empty office buildings everywhere.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/midlands-lockdown-could-extend-to-other-areas-health-officials-warn-1013524.html
This is very close to my home county. Now the msm are constantly talking about cases and RO but not deaths. Two days ago there were 6 ICU covid cases out of 4.5million people and all over twitter the zombies are fanning the flames of another lockdown. I'm taking a break from twitter for the next few days while doing a novena because I can't fathom the stupidity. My brother lives in one of those counties and he is blaming the meat factories for the positive cases and when I went on a rant about cases meaning diddly squat, its the death rate that counts, he just couldn't compute. More testing shows that the death rate is even more minimal than thought so they've moved the conversation completely to cases and RO.
God help us
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
Those predictions are looking good right now. More evidence below:
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/depression-uk-doubles-during-ccp-virus-pandemic-survey
Third, the COVID-19 epidemic has caused a parallel epidemic of fear, anxiety, and depression. People with mental health conditions could be more substantially influenced by the emotional responses brought on by the COVID-19 epidemic, resulting in relapses or worsening of an already existing mental health condition because of high susceptibility to stress compared with the general population.https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(20)30090-0/fulltext
And not just suicides. Murders too.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/olga-freeman-murder-charge-disabled-son-acton-a4528421.html
Montreal teen dies of COVID-19, becoming Quebec's first under-20 victim
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-teen-dies-of-covid-19-becoming-the-first-under-20-victim-in-quebec
Quote from: mikemac on August 21, 2020, 10:57:17 PM
Montreal teen dies of COVID-19, becoming Quebec's first under-20 victim
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-teen-dies-of-covid-19-becoming-the-first-under-20-victim-in-quebec
Thanks for sharing, but I don't believe it for a second. His family was paid off, the doctors and nurses paid off. They need this "Covid death" to further the narrative.
Quote from: Heinrich on August 22, 2020, 07:50:29 AM
Quote from: mikemac on August 21, 2020, 10:57:17 PM
Montreal teen dies of COVID-19, becoming Quebec's first under-20 victim
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-teen-dies-of-covid-19-becoming-the-first-under-20-victim-in-quebec
Thanks for sharing, but I don't believe it for a second. His family was paid off, the doctors and nurses paid off. They need this "Covid death" to further the narrative.
A couple that go to our parish believe it is all BS like you do Heinrich. When I mentioned the 29 that died in the Bobcaygen long term care home (close to us) to them he said don't believe anything you hear on the news. They asked who do I personally know that has had covid. I personally don't know anyone that has had it, so I couldn't give him an answer. But my priest knows someone who died of covid. My next door neighbour knows someone that had it; he doesn't know how he made out. ChrisTulsa and his wife had covid. When Chris left here his wife had been sick with covid for about a month; he was clearly worried about her. I don't doubt that they have been fudging the numbers to increase the amount, but to say the whole thing is BS I can't agree with at all. That would mean that not only doctors, nurses, the media and a lot of politicians but even minimum wage long term health care workers are part of the conspiracy. In areas where people have complied with the lockdown and wearing the masks, like the Canadian maritime provinces, we have seen the number of covid cases decrease to just about none. I believe there are two extremities; people who believe everything they hear and people who don't believe anything that they hear. I believe both are wrong.
Quote from: Heinrich on August 22, 2020, 07:50:29 AM
Quote from: mikemac on August 21, 2020, 10:57:17 PM
Montreal teen dies of COVID-19, becoming Quebec's first under-20 victim
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-teen-dies-of-covid-19-becoming-the-first-under-20-victim-in-quebec
Thanks for sharing, but I don't believe it for a second. His family was paid off, the doctors and nurses paid off. They need this "Covid death" to further the narrative.
Nobody needs to be paid off when the cause of death is determined on the basis of, in this regard, an utterly meaningless RT-PCR test. And even if one won't concede these tests are meaningless applied to determining SARS-COV2 infection, even by theirs own stated specificity they would be yielding false positives at rates of 80%+ in populations with the official estimated infection rates. Even an inaccuracy of just a couple percent leads to massive false positives when your infection rate is itself a few percent. Most people just do t get this because they mistakenly think a test being 98% accurate means if you test positive it means there's a 98% probability you are infected - and that's why test producers and officials quote test accuracies instead of such probabilities.
Doctors and nurses don't have to be in on any conspiracy for this viral pandemic to be a construct with no reality.
QuoteCovid Report
Alfie Oaks owns several food/grocery establishments through out Naples, FL. Just last year he opened up a multimillion dollar store called Seed To Table, which took over 5 years to build. He also owns several thousands acres of farm land in central Collier County along with packaging and processing plants. Alfie has several thousand employees from the farm land to retail stores. He has always been one to speak his mind.
Below is his article that was published on the internet.
______________________
Most everyone of us at Seed to Table have never worn a mask.
Many people from the beginning of this political pandemic called me reckless and irresponsible. But let's look at the facts. Over 2300 employees and hardly anyone has even have the slightest bit of illness. Over the past four months the few members in our company that had the slightest symptoms went to a local doctor that I will not name to protect the use of hydroxychloroquine and vitamins. Every single employee that we sent over was better within two days.
The sad truth is the World Health Organization (WHO) and Center for Disease Control (CDC) could have pulled off the same scam every year for the last 200 years. Knowing that every comorbidity has now been chalked up to Covid from the very beginning it is clear to see why the numbers that are in excess of the normal flu season.
The facts clearly show that LESS people have died during the first seven months of 2020 than during the same period in 2018 and 2019.
I completely understand why the masses have been conditioned by the media and are so eager to buy into the fear. Sometimes the LIE is so big that you would almost be a fool not to buy into it!
THE TIME HAS COME FOR THOSE STILL ASLEEP TO WAKE UP, BECAUSE THIS SHAM/DRESS REHEARSAL WILL CERTAINLY BE THE LAST CHANCE; THOSE CHOOSING TO REMAIN IN DENIAL, GIVING THE FINGER TO REALITY ARE GOING TO MAKE ALL OF US PAY THE PRICE...
FEEL "FREE" TO FACT CHECK EACH OF THESE, PLEASE!
CDC admitted they screwed up Covid-19 infection counts and intentionally misled the public and have apologized, clarifying that the amount of people truly infected is much lower than what was originally reported -- an error so egregious it made the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute say "how could the CDC make this mistake? This is a mess."
The American Coronavirus Task Force also admitted to fudging the national Covid-19 death count when Dr. Birx said the deaths are people who died "with" Covid-19 not "from" Covid-19, thus making the real death count much lower than what is currently being reported.
Dr. Anthony Fauci admitted masks won't help against the virus and mask manufacturers are now including warnings that their products do not deter Covid-19.
Fauci also said that continuing to close the country could cause irreparable damage.
CDC backtracked their initial claim that led governors to shutdown their states & clarified that Covid-19 does not spread easily on surfaces.
Governor of New York Andrew Cuomo confirmed a recent health study showing that 70% of new infections actually originate at home, thus making stay at home orders one of the most dangerous mandates currently in place.
Trump stopped funding the WHO and threatened to cut off money permanently until they can prove they are no longer corruptly influenced by communist China after they lied to our country about human to human transmission of Covid-19 in January.
The curve is flattened, the CDC, WHO, Dr. Fauci, our governors, and many more were completely wrong about the potential threat of this virus.
If you are still living in fear, Don't be. The media, global organizations, the government and its agencies "mislead" the public.
People called those of us who knew this all along conspiracy theorists, but it turns out we were just following the facts!
Open up your businesses, churches and homes. Don't fall for the lies any longer. If you fell for the lies this time, wake up and join the army of truth seekers fighting on the front lines.
Florida has just admitted to miscalculations on some that received positive Covid-19 results but never got tested and many others have been incorrectly identified as positive in the state's system.
WHO have just admitted that transmission of the virus from an asymptomatic carriers – the whole reason for the lockdown – is rare!! I.e., you could not spread it before showing any symptoms!!
The CDC just confirmed a 0.04% to 0.26% death-rate for Covid 19. The death rate for the flu shot is 0.6%. Twice as high as Covid!
For that, we have:
Added nearly 6 trillion to national debt;
Laid-off or furloughed 50 million workers;
Placed 60 million on food stamps;
Gone from 3.5% to 14.7% unemployment;
Crippled the petroleum industry;
Ruined the tourism industry;
Bankrupted the service industry;
Caused an impending meat and protein crisis;
Threatened, fined and arrested church leaders;
Exacerbated mental health problems;
Shut down schools and colleges;
Given unbridled power to unelected officials;
Increased suicides higher than Covid deaths;
Delayed surgeries and treatments for profound illnesses;
Infringed upon countless important civil liberties;
Placed 300 million Americans on house arrest.
Bill Gates has placed himself in such a position of influence by heavily funding all corners to make this lie happen.
We need to start treating it as the lie it is.
Seriously our whole way of life is at stake, and they have plans to make it much worse now introducing it as "the grand reset", "the beginning of the 4th revolution" (i.e. a surveillance state of control, where everyone lives in what is essentially a strict open air prison where you are tracked, nothing is private, and everything is decided for you, and you have no rights whatsoever, and there can be no resistance.
Welcome to their "new world order".
Alfie Oaks
I have come to the conclusion that the medical community have abandoned all decency and are obsessed with fame and self worship. The fawning is sickening and they can't or won't whistleblow because they are too afraid of the backlash after all the tik toks etc.
The applauding at 9pm, the hero status heaped ad nauseam onto them was a deliberate and outstandingly clever tactic to tie the medical community to the lie.
They literally are too embarrassed or too high on the worship to blow the whistle.
Someday I will spit at their feet.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on August 22, 2020, 11:12:19 AM
QuoteCovid Report
...
Over the past four months the few members in our company that had the slightest symptoms went to a local doctor that I will not name to protect the use of hydroxychloroquine and vitamins. Every single employee that we sent over was better within two days.
...
Alfie Oaks
:thumbsup:
It looks like Alfie doesn't believe it is all BS either.
Quote from: mikemac on August 22, 2020, 07:25:43 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on August 22, 2020, 11:12:19 AM
QuoteCovid Report
...
Over the past four months the few members in our company that had the slightest symptoms went to a local doctor that I will not name to protect the use of hydroxychloroquine and vitamins. Every single employee that we sent over was better within two days.
...
Alfie Oaks
:thumbsup:
It looks like Alfie doesn't believe it is all BS either.
Getting HCQ is the perfect response as opposed to months of lockdowns to "flatten the curve" (and killing thousands of businesses).
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/uk-govt-scientist-admits-lockdown-was-monumental-mistake-global-scale
Infectious diseases expert and University of Edinburgh professor Mark Woolhouse acknowledged that the decision to lockdown in March was a "crude measure" that was enacted because "we couldn't think of anything better to do."
"Lockdown was a panic measure and I believe history will say trying to control Covid-19 through lockdown was a monumental mistake on a global scale, the cure was worse than the disease," said Woolhouse, who is now calling on the government to unlock society before more damage is done.
"I never want to see national lockdown again," he added.
"It was always a temporary measure that simply delayed the stage of the epidemic we see now. It was never going to change anything fundamentally."
The professor asserts that the impact of the response to coronavirus will be worse than the virus itself.
"I believe the harm lockdown is doing to our education, health care access, and broader aspects of our economy and society will turn out to be at least as great as the harm done by COVID-19," said Woolhouse.He had no skin in the game, that is the real problem. History will judge them.
What sort of imbecile needed hindsight to tell lockdowns would be an economic disaster?
The "cure is worse than the disease" because the threat of further lockdowns is the instrument for conditioning the public for mandatory vaccination. The infectious disease itself, real
or not, was never going to be sufficient for that purpose.
And this vaccination may or may not be the mark, but it is at least a social and legal preparation for it.
Pot, meet Kettle
A Catholic archbishop in Belarus has protested after riot police blocked the entrance to a church in the capital, Minsk.
"In accordance with the constitution of the Republic of Belarus, people have the right to pray by freely entering and leaving the church without hindrance. Blocking the exits of the shrine and creating obstacles to the free entry and exit of people is a gross violation of the rights of believers and freedom of religion," he said.
https://catholicherald.co.uk/archbishop-calls-for-investigation-after-riot-police-block-church-entrance-in-belarus/
Where were these Bishops a few month ago! Covid19 anyone?
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/even-i-can-59c7c9.jpg)
Quote from: clau clau on August 21, 2020, 04:34:10 AM
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
The Perfect Storm ALEX - Now It Begins
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fZ9rFHPTM0[/yt]
Boris is going to have massive civil disobedience on his hands if he's not careful.
Quote from: paul14 on August 27, 2020, 03:02:47 PM
Pot, meet Kettle
A Catholic archbishop in Belarus has protested after riot police blocked the entrance to a church in the capital, Minsk.
My intelligence from inside Belarus says Lukashenko won that election. The "colour revolution" is Soros provoked and financed.
https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/13366/exiled-belarus-archbishop-defends-church-stance
Francis's man is playing right along with the Soros agenda.
Yep. Testing is causing the virus.
Summary: Virus's do not do 'waves'. They operate according to Gompertz functions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gompertz_function).
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbMJoJ6i39k[/yt]
There's a certain justice to this whole thing.
The fall-out from this whole fiasco is going to wipe out the pensions of the entire western world. Those boomers and gen-X's who aborted their families are going to have their pensions destroyed when all the government bonds on which those pensions depend are going to be worth pennies on the dollar/pound/euro etc...
Get this as viral as possible:
https://twitter.com/IndigoLeo10/status/1332687302615851015?s=20
Bumping for year anniversary. We had no idea, did we?
Quote from: Heinrich on January 23, 2021, 06:07:17 PM
Bumping for year anniversary. We had no idea, did we?
Yes, a lot of my thoughts are 'this time last year'........
and its scary to think of 'this time next year'
Saw a post on GAB....no way out of this but through!!
Quote from: Heinrich on January 23, 2021, 06:07:17 PM
Bumping for year anniversary. We had no idea, did we?
No, no idea.</s>
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
Quote from: clau clau on January 24, 2021, 08:43:06 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on January 23, 2021, 06:07:17 PM
Bumping for year anniversary. We had no idea, did we?
No, no idea.</s>
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
You prediction was almost two months after the thread started. I had no idea on January 23rd, 2020 that the Arnold Classic in Columbus, Ohio would be cancelled in the first week of March, quasi martial law would be in effect starting ~the Ides of March, and worst of all, public worship for Holy Week and Easter would be cancelled. Apparently Clau and Diaduit have some special transatlantic discernment that they did not bother to share on the 23rd or 24th of January, 2020.
Quote from: Heinrich on January 24, 2021, 12:58:26 PM
Quote from: clau clau on January 24, 2021, 08:43:06 AM
Quote from: Heinrich on January 23, 2021, 06:07:17 PM
Bumping for year anniversary. We had no idea, did we?
No, no idea.</s>
Quote from: clau clau on March 18, 2020, 03:55:52 AM
Prediction: The consequences of treatment for Corona Virus will be far worse than the disease itself.
Prediction2: There will be an epidemic of suicides caused by people getting depressed.
You prediction was almost two months after the thread started. I had no idea on January 23rd, 2020 that the Arnold Classic in Columbus, Ohio would be cancelled in the first week of March, quasi martial law would be in effect starting ~the Ides of March, and worst of all, public worship for Holy Week and Easter would be cancelled. Apparently Clau and Diaduit have some special transatlantic discernment that they did not bother to share on the 23rd or 24th of January, 2020.
???????
I had no idea we would be living the covid nightmare in Jan 2021 so I'm just puzzled at your mention of me there?
Edit to add, Clau Clau is British and they didn't lock down till long after the rest of most of Europe His predictions were accurate and early given that at the time of the post he hadn't even experienced lock down yet.
I guess I misread what you wrote. Apologies.
The 'Chinese dropping like flies' was a scam. COVID regs have vanished locally, even if they might exist nominally, while we (in Ireland) are saddled with such wonders as we cannot have life music and dance to it, but we can play music from a phone through wireless speakers and at least the bride and groom can dance to it. Any politician putting his mask on for the camera, taking his saline pretend vax, subscribing to the Woke religion will make even ever more foolish regs and sneeds will obey without question. It's a steaming pile of crap. No one has COVID unless it is understood perhaps as a slight variant of the 'flu.
This subject title should be renamed to:
Americans Dropping Like Flies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du2wm5nhTXY
A very good listen too. mRna spites out toxic spike proteins to the whole body.
Spike proteins concentrate in ovaries of women! Maybe massive infertility is coming.