Can we pray to Elias?

Started by Daniel, August 01, 2015, 10:54:53 AM

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Daniel

Today during a sermon my priest mentioned that the Church considers many of the Old Testament prophets to be saints.  I already knew that, but then he gave a few examples, and one thing he said is that the Carmelites regard Elias as a saint.  The priest didn't really elaborate, but I just thought that this seemed a little unusual, since Elias has not yet died, is not yet in the highest heaven, and does not yet have the beatific vision.  So, is it permissible to pray to him?  Is it even possible to pray to him?

Gardener

We pray to the poor souls just as we pray for them. They share Elias' situation of not being in Heaven yet, and also of being guaranteed salvation. So, why not?
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Daniel

Quote from: Gardener on August 01, 2015, 11:14:15 AM
We pray to the poor souls just as we pray for them.
Do we?  I had never heard that before.

Gardener

Quote from: Daniel on August 01, 2015, 11:22:02 AM
Quote from: Gardener on August 01, 2015, 11:14:15 AM
We pray to the poor souls just as we pray for them.
Do we?  I had never heard that before.

It is not a matter which is decided... but:

QuoteA further consideration from St. Alphonsus
Yet, all this notwithstanding, there is the simple fact that many saints have claimed that the poor souls do regularly intercede for them. Thus, we must attempt to understand what is occurring. In this matter, we turn to the great Doctor of the Church, St. Alphonsus Liguori (from The Great Means of Salvation and Perfection):
"Again, it is disputed whether there is any use in recommending one's self to the souls in purgatory. Some say that the souls in that state cannot pray for us; and these rely on the authority of St. Thomas, who says that those souls, while they are being purified by pain, are inferior to us, and therefore 'are not in a state to pray for us, but rather require cur prayers.'
"But many other Doctors, as Bellarmine, Sylvius, Cardinal Gotti, Lessius, Medina and others affirm with great probability, that we should piously believe that God manifests our prayer to those holy souls in order that they may pray for us; and that so the charitable interchange of mutual prayer may be kept up between them and us. Nor do St. Thomas' words present much difficulty; for, as Sylvius and Gotti say, it is one thing not to be in a state to pray, another not to be able to pray.
"It is true that those souls are not in a state to pray, because, as St. Thomas says, while suffering they are inferior to us, and rather require our prayers; nevertheless, in this state they are well able to pray, as they are friends of God. If a father keeps a son whom he tenderly loves in confinement for some fault; if the son then is not in a state to pray for himself, is that any reason why he cannot pray for others? and may he not expect to obtain what he asks, knowing, as he does, his father's affection for him?
"So the souls in purgatory, being beloved by God, and confirmed in grace, have absolutely no impediment to prevent them from praying for us. Still the Church does not invoke them, or implore their intercession, because ordinarily they have no cognizance of our prayers. But we may piously believe that God makes our prayers known to them; and then they, full of charity as they are, most assuredly do not omit to pray for us. St. Catharine of Bologna, whenever she desired any favor, had recourse to the souls in purgatory, and was immediately heard. She even testified that by the intercession of the souls in purgatory she had obtained many graces which she had not been able to obtain by the intercession of the saints."

And from the comments section:

QuoteHere is an exceprt from St. Alphonsus' (The Doctor Zelantissimus) "The Great Means of Salvation and Perfection": (1.3.2)

"Again, it is disputed whether there is any use in recommending one's self to the Souls in Purgatory. Some say that the Souls in that state cannot pray for us; and these rely on the authority of St. Thomas, who says that those Souls, while they are being purified by pain, are inferior to us, and therefore are not in a state to pray for us, but rather require our prayers. [2. 2. q. 83, a. 2] But many other Doctors, as Bellarmine, [De Purg. 1. 2. c. 15] Sylvius, [In Suppl. q. 71, a. 6] Cardinal Gotti, [De St. an. p. vit. q. 4, d. 2] Lessius, [De Just. 1. 2, c. 37, d. 5] Medina and others, affirm with great probability, that we should piously believe that God manifests our prayer to those holy souls, in order that they may pray for us; and that so the charitable interchange of mutual prayer may be kept up between them and us."

Here, too, is an excerpt from Francisco Suarez (not a Doctor) and his "De Poenitentia":

Maxime quia illae animae sunt sanctae et carae Deo nosque ex charitate diligunt et noslri recordantur noruntque saltem generaliter ea pericula in quibus versamur et quantum indigeamus divina ope et auxilio cur ergo non orabunt etiamsi alias suis pcenis solvanl quod debent?

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/11/can-poor-souls-pray-for-us.html

"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

jovan66102

#4
Quote from: Gardener on August 01, 2015, 11:14:15 AM
We pray to the poor souls just as we pray for them. They share Elias' situation of not being in Heaven yet, and also of being guaranteed salvation. So, why not?

Whilst I totally agree that we pray to the souls in purgatory just as we pray for them (I have seen indulgenced novenas to them), I think you'd better check the Roman Martyrology on St Elias. His Feast Day is 20 July and his Feast is a First Class Feast (Solemnity in the NO) in both the O.Carm. and the O.C.D. Carmelites have been asking his intercession as a Saint at least since the 13th century with the approval of the Church.


***ETA***Oops! I see what Daniel was getting at. The general belief is that Elias was taken to limbus patrum and was set free along with Adam, Eve, Moses, David, the Machabees, et. al., when Christ descendit ad inferos.

/signed/ Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception, T.O.Carm. :)
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
"Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)" St Bernard of Clairvaux
https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/

Bernadette

Quote from: jovan66102 on August 06, 2015, 10:03:44 PM
I think you'd better check the Roman Martyrology on St Elias. His Feast Day is 20 July and his Feast is a First Class Feast (Solemnity in the NO) in both the O.Carm. and the O.C.D. Carmelites have been asking his intercession as a Saint at least since the 13th century with the approval of the Church.

I was gonna say, better not question St. Elias' "credentials" to any Carmelites!  ;) They consider him a Spiritual Father.
My Lord and my God.

jovan66102

Quote from: Bernadette on August 06, 2015, 11:12:37 PM
Quote from: jovan66102 on August 06, 2015, 10:03:44 PM
I think you'd better check the Roman Martyrology on St Elias. His Feast Day is 20 July and his Feast is a First Class Feast (Solemnity in the NO) in both the O.Carm. and the O.C.D. Carmelites have been asking his intercession as a Saint at least since the 13th century with the approval of the Church.

I was gonna say, better not question St. Elias' "credentials" to any Carmelites!  ;) They consider him a Spiritual Father.

We are allowed by Holy Mother Church to call him, and to believe that he is, the Founder of our venerable Order!
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
"Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)" St Bernard of Clairvaux
https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/

Gardener

Quote from: jovan66102 on August 06, 2015, 10:03:44 PM
Quote from: Gardener on August 01, 2015, 11:14:15 AM
We pray to the poor souls just as we pray for them. They share Elias' situation of not being in Heaven yet, and also of being guaranteed salvation. So, why not?

Whilst I totally agree that we pray to the souls in purgatory just as we pray for them (I have seen indulgenced novenas to them), I think you'd better check the Roman Martyrology on St Elias. His Feast Day is 20 July and his Feast is a First Class Feast (Solemnity in the NO) in both the O.Carm. and the O.C.D. Carmelites have been asking his intercession as a Saint at least since the 13th century with the approval of the Church.


***ETA***Oops! I see what Daniel was getting at. The general belief is that Elias was taken to limbus patrum and was set free along with Adam, Eve, Moses, David, the Machabees, et. al., when Christ descendit ad inferos.

/signed/ Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception, T.O.Carm. :)

I'm not saying he's not a Saint, but I've never understood him to be in heaven proper... I know Aquinas taught he was not in heaven proper, and I see no reason to believe he is there yet.

Hopefully that clears up what I was saying.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

jovan66102

Quote from: Gardener on August 06, 2015, 11:34:58 PM
Quote from: jovan66102 on August 06, 2015, 10:03:44 PM
Quote from: Gardener on August 01, 2015, 11:14:15 AM
We pray to the poor souls just as we pray for them. They share Elias' situation of not being in Heaven yet, and also of being guaranteed salvation. So, why not?

Whilst I totally agree that we pray to the souls in purgatory just as we pray for them (I have seen indulgenced novenas to them), I think you'd better check the Roman Martyrology on St Elias. His Feast Day is 20 July and his Feast is a First Class Feast (Solemnity in the NO) in both the O.Carm. and the O.C.D. Carmelites have been asking his intercession as a Saint at least since the 13th century with the approval of the Church.


***ETA***Oops! I see what Daniel was getting at. The general belief is that Elias was taken to limbus patrum and was set free along with Adam, Eve, Moses, David, the Machabees, et. al., when Christ descendit ad inferos.

/signed/ Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception, T.O.Carm. :)

I'm not saying he's not a Saint, but I've never understood him to be in heaven proper... I know Aquinas taught he was not in heaven proper, and I see no reason to believe he is there yet.

Hopefully that clears up what I was saying.

Well, I can only say that the Roman Martyrology only contains Saints, who by definition, are in Heaven. He's in it. Ergo, he's in Heaven.
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
"Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)" St Bernard of Clairvaux
https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/

Gardener

I'll stick with Aquinas' answer on how to understand it.

But at any rate, one could certainly pray to Elias regardless of where he is presently.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

jovan66102

Here's the (NO) Collect for his Feast:

Almighty, ever-living God,
Your prophet Elijah
Lived always in your presence
And was zealous for the honor due to your Name.
May we, your servants,
Always seek your Face
And bear witness to your Love.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.  Amen.

And here's a link to a Carmelite page explaining more about him, pointing out that his Feast is a Solemnity in the NO. I can't imagine Holy Church celebrating a Feast for someone who is not in Heaven!

http://ocarm.org/en/content/liturgy/st-elijah-prophet-solemnity
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
"Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)" St Bernard of Clairvaux
https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/

jovan66102

Quote from: Gardener on August 06, 2015, 11:41:18 PM
I'll stick with Aquinas' answer on how to understand it.

But at any rate, one could certainly pray to Elias regardless of where he is presently.

All I can say is it's too bad you'll take the Angelic Doctor's opinion over that of Holy Church, and I'm a Thomist!
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
"Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)" St Bernard of Clairvaux
https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/

Gardener

There are levels of heaven. Yes, he is in heaven, but not the empyrean heaven according to Aquinas.

http://taylormarshall.com/2008/12/enoch-and-elijah-as-two-witnesses-of.html

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4049.htm#article5

The Collect you posted doesn't say he is in Heaven as Aquinas defined the empyrean heaven.

There is no difficulty for me on this.

The gates of heaven were shut before Christ. Elijah was taken where?

Christ opened the gates... did Elijah go with the other OT Saints? I dunno. Aquinas and Augustine don't teach that, nor is the Church explicit on the question.

"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

jovan66102

Quote from: Gardener on August 06, 2015, 11:51:32 PM
(N)or is the Church explicit on the question.

Does Holy Church raise to the honours of the Altar those who are not in the empyrean Heaven? In fact, is there any dogmatic definition of the empyrean Heaven? I don't think so to either question. Ergo, as I said, those who are in the Roman Martyrology and who have Feasts celebrating them, are Saints in Heaven, no ifs, ands, or buts, and St Elias is a Saint.
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
"Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)" St Bernard of Clairvaux
https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/

Daniel

#14
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