What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?

[alicewyf]

I suppose the title says it all. We only have one TLM available in our town and it happens to be at the exact same time we usually assist at mass at our NO parish. My daughter is enrolled in RE there and is expected in class at a specific time so I would have to choose between attending mass with my family and the TLM if I were going to go alone, at least until June when RE classes stop for summertime. I'm really struggling with the right thing to do here. Advice and prayers appreciated. Thanks!

[OCLittleFlower]

Why does your husband object to the TLM?

Why does your daughter need to go to catechism at that parish?  Are there similar classes at the parish that offers the TLM?  Can you teach her yourself?

[Chestertonian]

i don't think ccd is strictly required

there are lots of good home Catechism programs out there.  I'll post what I am doing when I can find the document.

Basically it's stories we listen to on an audio app for Android and iPhone called "Catholic audio kids" and each story has a Baltimore Catechism chapter it corresponds to.  It's not that hard and I enjoy listening to the stories with him

[Chestertonian]

I also like the Living My Religion text

[St.Justin]

So your daughter would go with you to the TLM if not for the Rel. ed or both her and your husband would go with you?
Some Priest are sticklers for being a parishoner to receive the Sacraments from them.
Some are sticklers for attending proscribed Rel Ed. programs.
You really need to find out the requirements being levied by the NO Priest and the TLM Priest and that should help you make your decision.

[alicewyf]

I really would prefer to teach my daughter her catechism myself. I have a copy of the New St. joseph first communion catechism that we've been working from (in addition to RE as I don't think it is adequate). I haven't been impressed wih her RE program at all. She comes home saying it is boring and she hasn't learned anything new. I worry it is making her think church and the things of God are uninteresting.

My problem is we've already committed to this year of RE, and at least at our current parish it is the only option for my daughter to receive her first communion. Our pastor is very big on his RE program. She would be due to receive her first communion next year, so the issue is not urgent, but it's something I worry about.

I guess the bigger issue is that my husband likes our current parish and doesn't have a problem with the way things are there. I am more and more frustrated with the lack of reverence every week. It is so difficult for me to go. I won't bother enumerating the abuses--suffice it to say there are many and it is very distracting and saddening. My husband also likes likes that our current parish is very close to our house. The parish that has the TLM is about a 30 min drive. I have spoken to him about this but he isn't open to changing, and I don't want to force things or upset him or cause a fight.

So far I have been surviving by watching the live streaming on livemass.org. I keep feeling like this isn't right and that there is some level of disorder in our family's spiritual lives because of this.

[Ulrich Von Lichtenstein]

Is the spouse the husband? Ah, no problem then. Women have always had many wily ways of eventually bringing men around to their way of thinking...

Or one idea you could try is to cook a top notch, 5 michelin star 7 course banquet for you and the rest of the family - and then serve your husband a hamburger sandwich and french fries. See if he gets the hint!

[Quaremerepulisti]

Is the spouse the husband? Ah, no problem then. Women have always had many wily ways of eventually bringing men around to their way of thinking...

Or one idea you could try is to cook a top notch, 5 michelin star 7 course banquet for you and the rest of the family - and then serve your husband a hamburger sandwich and french fries. See if he gets the hint!

This is a sin against the proper respect a wife owes to the head of the household.

If there is nothing per se objectionable about where the husband wants to go to Mass or about the daughter's religious instruction, and the husband wants the wife to accompany the family to Mass there, then the wife's duty is to obey.

[Chestertonian]

Is the spouse the husband? Ah, no problem then. Women have always had many wily ways of eventually bringing men around to their way of thinking...

Or one idea you could try is to cook a top notch, 5 michelin star 7 course banquet for you and the rest of the family - and then serve your husband a hamburger sandwich and french fries. See if he gets the hint!

This is a sin against the proper respect a wife owes to the head of the household.

If there is nothing per se objectionable about where the husband wants to go to Mass or about the daughter's religious instruction, and the husband wants the wife to accompany the family to Mass there, then the wife's duty is to obey.

it sounds like the novus ordo environment she describes is objectionable, though.

[Bernadette]

If there is nothing per se objectionable about where the husband wants to go to Mass or about the daughter's religious instruction, and the husband wants the wife to accompany the family to Mass there, then the wife's duty is to obey.

But there is something objectionable in this case: liturgical abuses and lack of reverence. In such a case, shouldn't the spiritual head put his wife's needs over his own likes?

[Jayne]

If there is nothing per se objectionable about where the husband wants to go to Mass or about the daughter's religious instruction, and the husband wants the wife to accompany the family to Mass there, then the wife's duty is to obey.

But there is something objectionable in this case: liturgical abuses and lack of reverence. In such a case, shouldn't the spiritual head put his wife's needs over his own likes?

I think that QMR is right that it is the wife's duty to obey.  I am in a similar situation to alicewyf in that my husband does not like the TLM.  However, he understands how distressing it is for me to attend the NO and does not make me do it.  He is very supportive of my attending the TLM and will even attend with me occasionally in spite of not liking it.

If alicewyf disobeys her husband now, he is going to be denied the opportunity to figure out for himself that she ought to go to the TLM.  She would interfere with him growing to be a spiritual head who puts his wife's needs first.  Also it would establish a precedent of disobedience.  It would be destructive of their relationship.

I think that UVL may have been joking about about women's wily ways.  I hope that nobody would ever seriously suggest that a wife manipulate her husband.  I suspect that such a thing would be even worse than disobedience.

[Quaremerepulisti]

If there is nothing per se objectionable about where the husband wants to go to Mass or about the daughter's religious instruction, and the husband wants the wife to accompany the family to Mass there, then the wife's duty is to obey.

But there is something objectionable in this case: liturgical abuses and lack of reverence. In such a case, shouldn't the spiritual head put his wife's needs over his own likes?

Liturgical abuses don't, in themselves, make it objectionable to assist at Mass there.  They are the fault of those who commit them.  But the OP wasn't clear on this point so that's why I prefaced the sentence with "if".

And there are more aspects to consider than her needs and his likes, and she needs to respect and submit to his final decision.  He's likely worried, for instance, about his daughter's ability to receive First Holy Communion.  She can respectfully bring her concerns to his attention but she has to be willing to accept "no" for an answer (without attempting to manipulate him or be grossly disrespectful by serving everyone else a banquet and him a burger and fries.)

[Bernadette]

If there is nothing per se objectionable about where the husband wants to go to Mass or about the daughter's religious instruction, and the husband wants the wife to accompany the family to Mass there, then the wife's duty is to obey.

But there is something objectionable in this case: liturgical abuses and lack of reverence. In such a case, shouldn't the spiritual head put his wife's needs over his own likes?

I think that QMR is right that it is the wife's duty to obey.  I am in a similar situation to alicewyf in that my husband does not like the TLM.  However, he understands how distressing it is for me to attend the NO and does not make me do it.  He is very supportive of my attending the TLM and will even attend with me occasionally in spite of not liking it.

If alicewyf disobeys her husband now, he is going to be denied the opportunity to figure out for himself that she ought to go to the TLM.  She would interfere with him growing to be a spiritual head who puts his wife's needs first.  Also it would establish a precedent of disobedience.  It would be destructive of their relationship.

This is something that confuses me, so I'm really glad that I don't have to deal with it personally. I would have a really hard time entrusting my spiritual life to someone else in such a fundamental way. Because there's no guarantee that the husband and wife will ever be "on the same page" regarding this. And while it's great to say: "Well, offer it up, be obedient, etc" the frustration and disquiet that come from witnessing abuses week after week is no small matter, as I'm sure you know. These, themselves can cause a lot of damage, and I think that needs to be weighed.

Edit:

And there are more aspects to consider than her needs and his likes, and she needs to respect and submit to his final decision.  He's likely worried, for instance, about his daughter's ability to receive First Holy Communion. 

And based on what was posted, it's just as likely that he's just comfortable there and doesn't want to change because it's uncomfortable and inconvenient. It's human nature, after all, to think like this. And Alicewyf might be worried about her daughter's faith being properly formed and strengthened in the NO catechism and environment. And I'm not saying this because one is a man and the other is a woman, but because of what Alicewyf has posted.

[Chestertonian]

thenovus ordo is like Nickelback...and the TLM is like Brahms

the novus rdo is like a day old mcdonalds hamburger and the TLM is a dry aged kobe filet mignon

the novus ordo s like Chuck Shaw and the TLM is lagavulin 16 year

the novus ordo is like Thomas Kinkade and the TLM is like Caravaggio

what kind of person prefers the former to the latter?

sure, the NO is valid and if need be we will go there.  but even the more "reverent" novus ordos are impoverished compared to the old mass.... you can have all altar boys, traditional vestments, gregorian chant and it is still less beauitul and less pleasing to GOd.  you have to look at the original text of the TLM and contrast it with the latin NO and they got rid of something like 80% of the prayers. 

i can undrstand that some people think they prefer the novus ordo because they just havent been exposed to the latin mass.  but CHOOSING the NO after you have seen the beauty of a traditional latin mass reflects malformed tastes, poor theology, and an inability to recognize sublime beauty when it's right in front of your face.  if you have any sense of the good, the true, and the beautiful you will prefer the TLM.

The OP also has a child.  Children need good liturgical environments in order for their faith to be properly formed. You wouldn't subject your child to a house full of poisonous lead or fumes, or a room full of secondhand smoke.  Seeing liturgical abuses every Sunday ant be good for a child.  when we take our son to mass sometimes it is novus ordo if it is our only option but we have walked out of churches before because we just cant deal with what we see.  we dont want to send themessagetat it's OK for there to be children gathered around the atar or amped up guitars.  ddo i consider the NO a hazard to my own faith?  i am an adult and one Mass with extraordinary ministers and lay lectors isnt going to change my perception of the relationship between the priesthood and the llaity.  but i also understand that my son's faith is growing and developing, and seeing ladies on the pulpit chanting the responsorial psalm (usually with the schlockiest music known to man) cant be good for him.

there is a good article at the Liturgy Guy blog about why children need traditional parish life: 

Life Site News recently published a thoughtful opinion piece, "What I'm Never Going to Tell You About Homeschooling",by Elizabeth Foss. I recommend this article to all homeschool families or those who may be considering it for their children.

In short the author reminds people that, while homeschooling may give families a "better shot" of raising holy children who will grow up to be faithful adults, it is by no means a guarantee. No matter what curriculum or preparations that parents employ, there will always be children who make bad choices and fall away from the faith. We must not be prideful or naive in our human efforts, and must continue to strive in personal holiness while praying for our children. I will add that we also must not underestimate the depravity and allure of the world, or overestimate our ability to maintain virtue and holiness through reason alone. While Ms. Foss focuses on our roles as parents, I wish to expand the topic to discuss the roles played by our Catholic parishes in the formation of our children.

The Catholic Church has always recognized that parents are the primary catechists of their children; however, few would dispute that the parish church is of vital importance. The parish is an important refuge for families where they can not only receive the sacraments, but also find fellowship with other families, learn more about their faith, and share in the devotional life of the Church which in turn serves as a means to pass along the faith to younger generations.

Isolation from the world is not the goal; rather the parish provides a shelter where young Catholics can be trained to defend their faith before going out into the world. Similar to what we ask of St. Michael, the parish provides "protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil, who prowls about the world seeking the ruin of souls."

As an analogy, consider the modern military base. A military that allowed enemy soldiers onto the base, or one that attempted to train their newest recruits in the thick of a battle, might not yield the best training outcome. Instead new recruits are trained on military bases surrounded by tall fences and armed patrols in order to provide them with shelter. They receive combat training from battle hardened experts who teach them how to recognize and defeat the enemy. The soldiers are molded into cohesive units where bonds are formed and accountability to one another is instilled.

This too is how we need to transmit the faith to our children. Our children need a sheltered environment in which they can practice virtue and learn how to exercise their free will in a way that is most pleasing to God. They need a shelter in which bad decisions are met by a peer group of faithful Catholics who will hold them accountable in a loving way – not a secular peer group that will often celebrate their bad decisions. Only in our sick modern culture is providing shelter for a child considered a pejorative.

With this in mind, it is important for us to make an honest assessment of the state of the Church in the context of the vocations shortage and consider what type of formation and sacramental life we can expect from our parishes.

In one seemingly typical American diocese who publishes statistics, the ratio of active Catholics to priests is about 3,700 to 1. We can presume that this ratio will continue to get worse as the baby boomer generation of clergy continues to retire and pass away each year. With few exceptions globally, the pace of retirements and deaths of priests are severely outpacing ordinations with no relief  in sight. The ecclesial crisis in Europe is even more grim. It would be naïve to think that the crisis will not become this severe here in the United States. 

Consider what parish life is like now and try to imagine what it will be like with a ratio of 5,000 Catholics to 1 priest or even 10,000 to 1. Ratios such as these may very well occur in our lifetimes. Imagine how difficult will it be to receive the Sacraments? Will there be a priest available to administer last rites when the time comes for you or a member of your family? Will spiritual direction even exist anymore or will it be a distant memory? How long will it take to schedule a baptism or to schedule an appointment on Father's calendar? 

We must concede that we are now living in a post-Christian country. When the moral foundations of the world are crumbling, at the same time as the sacramental life of the Church is in decline, what are parents supposed to do? How are we to give our children the formation they will need to stand any sort of fighting chance in the world? While Ms. Foss paints a grim picture, there is good reason to believe that it may actually get a whole lot worse. She enjoins us to pray and continue striving for our children, but I feel  there is more that can be done.

Holy Mother Church, in her wisdom, provides us an  alternative form of parish for which these dangerous trends  do not apply: parishes devoted solely to the Extraordinary Form or Traditional Latin Mass as it is also known. Setting aside all discussions about the liturgy itself, there is a compelling case for Catholic families, even those who might not prefer the Traditional Latin Mass, to start attending for the sake of their children. 

First consider that these parishes have been provided to the faithful by the Church herself and they exist in almost every metro area in the country (my diocese excluded –harrumph!) with more locations being added every year. The parishes I am referring to are in full communion with the Catholic Church, which has also decreed that the Traditional Latin Mass, "remains sacred and great ... and it cannot be considered harmful."

For the most part, these parishes are run by religious orders  such as the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (F.S.S.P.), among others.  These traditional orders are overflowing with vocations.  Unlike many diocesan parishes, even small parishes dedicated to the Extraordinary Form are  often  staffed by two or three priests and the larger parishes can swell to as many as three to five priests. The ratios of faithful to priest at these parishes is sometimes closer to 300 to 1, which is practically unattainable with diocesan priests. A typical diocesan parish would require 10-15 priests to get near that ratio. 

At these traditional parishes there are well-formed priests leading, or principally involved in, almost every aspect of parish life: sports, devotions, altar serving, mission trips, fellowship, spiritual direction, and catechesis. Additionally, these priests are thoroughly orthodox. 

I travel often for my job and I have visited a dozen  parishes  of this sort around the country.  Even as a visiting stranger, the people there are without exception joyful and welcoming to me. When you go to these parishes, you will also see that family life is flourishing. 

There are families who go to Mass on Sunday morning and bring picnic lunches onto the lawn while their kids play until Solemn Benediction in the late afternoon. They celebrate Feast Days with processions and have festivals with live music, potlucks, and pig roasts. These parishes are restoring Catholic traditions and devotions that had been long forgotten.  People have been inspired to dig through their attics to retrieve antique Catholic heirlooms that have been handed down by their ancestors. They come to Mass with their great-grandmother's old hand missal that is filled with lists of her old prayer intentions.They are making a profound connection with the faith of their fathers and handing that on to their children.

Just as Ms. Foss correctly stated in reference to home-schooling, there are also no guarantees that apply to these Latin Mass parishes as well. These communities are made up of imperfect humans like any other diocesan parish. Having a parish that provides a full traditional Sacramental life to this degree will, however, provide families with an even "better shot"...and our children are going to need every shot they can get. These parishes are not made for Catholics who are stronger in their faith, but rather, they are for those who simply recognize their own human frailty and want to do something about it. 

If you have a parish dedicated to the Extraordinary Form in your diocese, I encourage you to join.  If not, and you desire this type of parish life, then I encourage you to take the necessary steps to join together with other likeminded Catholics to respectfully communicate your spiritual needs to your bishop.

[The preceding guest post was written by Chris Lauer.  Chris is one of the founders of the Charlotte Latin Mass Community and a member of the Confraternity of St. Peter. Professionally he works as a consultant in the technology field. He resides in Charlotte North Carolina with his wife Katherine and their five children.]

I like the analogy of the training camp...you cant expect children to be properly trained for holiness when they are surrounded by the ones who ann barnhardt refers to as "The Cool Kids who don't Believe Any Of That BS"

[Jayne]

what kind of person prefers the former to the latter?

I really do not like the implied insult to my husband in this and I doubt that alicewyf does either.  How would you like it if someone was making statements to your wife that insulted your taste and undermined your decisions?

Nobody here was questioning which form of Mass is better.  We really did not need a post which praises the TLM by putting down those who prefer the NO.

We live in a world that constantly encourages wives to disrespect husbands.  A trad forum is one place where people should know better.

St. Paul addressed women who were married to pagans, a more extreme difference than attending different forms of Mass.  Even in a case where the husbands' belief was completely wrong, wives were encouraged to obedience.