Theory about The Crisis and the chaos

[james03]

The problem however remains, because there is no possibility for the soul to assent to this grace in the Thomistic Banezian system, without the addition of efficacious grace.

Man, I hate when people do this.  FIFY.

Gardener, if you are monitoring these comms, will you dig up the quote FROM ST THOMAS that the choice to cooperate or reject Grace LIES WITH MAN?

The false binary of sufficient/efficacious is not from St. Thomas.

[james03]

The reason that sufficient grace is merely sufficient, the reason why it does not produce the good act itself, is not that it CAN'T produce the good act or that it's IMPOSSIBLE, but because of the sinful RESISTANCE to it in the soul. Sufficient grace gives a real power to the soul to do good; so the sinner who falls and says, "I didn't have the power to avoid sin because God refused to give me efficacious grace" is talking nonsense, because SUFFICIENT grace gives the POWER to avoid sin, and God always provides (at least) sufficient grace. If someone falls it's because they have resisted the grace that God has given them, have refused to use the power to do good which God has conferred upon them. The deficiency is in man, not in sufficient grace; sufficient grace is not deficient grace.

That is not in dispute.  What about the soul that cooperates with Grace?  In you system this is impossible unless God sends efficacious Grace.  That's a problem.

[Non Nobis]

Too bad there is not some way to break this thread in 2, rename the second part, and then move it into Sacred Sciences. I'm never going to remember to check "General Catholic Discussion/Theory about the Crisis..." for this always interesting discussion.

[John Lamb]

The reason that sufficient grace is merely sufficient, the reason why it does not produce the good act itself, is not that it CAN'T produce the good act or that it's IMPOSSIBLE, but because of the sinful RESISTANCE to it in the soul. Sufficient grace gives a real power to the soul to do good; so the sinner who falls and says, "I didn't have the power to avoid sin because God refused to give me efficacious grace" is talking nonsense, because SUFFICIENT grace gives the POWER to avoid sin, and God always provides (at least) sufficient grace. If someone falls it's because they have resisted the grace that God has given them, have refused to use the power to do good which God has conferred upon them. The deficiency is in man, not in sufficient grace; sufficient grace is not deficient grace.

That is not in dispute.  What about the soul that cooperates with Grace?  In you system this is impossible unless God sends efficacious Grace.  That's a problem.

It's not impossible. The soul can cooperate with sufficient grace, it just doesn't.

Gardener, if you are monitoring these comms, will you dig up the quote FROM ST THOMAS that the choice to cooperate or reject Grace LIES WITH MAN?

Banez and his interpreters (e.g. Garrigou-Lagrange) do not deny this. The soul chooses to resist sufficient grace, and chooses to co-operate with efficacious grace.

[mikemac]

So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.

From the Raccolta, prayer 84.

http://www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/index.htm

84.  PRAYERS FOR EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, WITH THREE "AVE MARIA'S" ETC.

Pope Pius VII., of holy memory, at the prayer of the Chapter of the Basilica of St. Mary in Cosmedin here in Rome, by a Rescript of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, dated June 21, 1808, kept in the Archivium of the said Basilica, granted -
i. An indulgence or 300 days, once a day, to all the faithful who, with contrite hearts, say the following prayers to our Blessed Lady, extracted from the spiritual works of the holy Bishop Alphonsus Maria de' Liguori, each on that day of the week to which it has been assigned, together with three Ave Maria's, with the intention of making some reparation to her for the many blasphemies which have been, and are daily uttered against her, not only by unbelievers, but even by bad Christians.
ii. A plenary indulgence, once a month, to all who say these prayers, with three Ave Maria's, daily for a whole month, with the intention above named, on any one day when, after Confession and Communion, they shall pray to God for the Holy Church, &c.

PRAYER FOR SATURDAY.

Most holy Mary, I know the graces which thou hast obtained for me, and I know the ingratitude which I have shown thee. The ungrateful man is unworthy of favours; and yet for all this I will not distrust thy mercy. O my great Advocate, have pity on me. Thou, Mary, dost dispense the graces which God vouchsafes to give us sinners, and therefore did He make thee so mighty, rich, and kind, that thou mightest succour us. I will that I may be saved: in thy hands I place my eternal salvation, to thee I consign my soul. I will to be associated with those who are thy special servants; reject me not. Thou goest up and down seeking the wretched, to console them. Cast not away, then, a wretched sinner who has recourse to thee. Speak for me, Mary; thy Son grants what thou askest. Take me beneath thy shelter, and it is enough for me; for with thee to guard me I fear no ill; no, not even my sins; because thou wilt obtain God's pardon for them: no, nor yet devils; because thou art far mightier than all hell: no, nor my Judge Jesus Christ; for at thy prayer He will lay aside His wrath. Protect me, then, my Mother; obtain for me pardon of my sins, love of Jesus, holy perseverance, a good death, and Heaven. It is too true, I merit not these graces; yet do thou only ask them of our God, and I shall obtain them. Pray, then, to Jesus for me. O Mary, my Queen, in thee I trust; in this trust I rest, I live; and with this trust I will that I may die. Amen.

Then say three Ave Maria's to the Blessed Virgin Mary in reparation for the blasphemies uttered against her, then the Litanies, it being Saturday, for which there is the indulgence.

74.  THE LITANIES

The Litanies commonly called " Litanies of our Lady" are named "Litanies of Loretto" in the Constitutions of several Sovereign Pontiffs, - viz. Reddituri, of Sixtus V., July11, 1687; Sanctissimus, of Clement VIII., Sept. 6, 1601; and In supremo, of Alexander VII., May 28, 1664 - by reason of their being sung with great solemnity every Saturday in the Holy House of Loretto. They are composed of humble supplications and devout prayers to Almighty and (this being the meaning of the word "Litanies"), offered up through the intercession of our Blessed Lady, who is honoured therein by the application to her of the mystic figures, high titles, and glorious appellations whereby she is invoked. That these Litanies, when said by the faithful, in church in public, or at home in private, might always remain word for word exactly as they have been handed down to us from ancient tradition, Pope Alexander VII., in the Constitution above named, strictly forbade the making of any alteration in them.
To encourage the faithful often to have recourse to the intercession of most holy Mary in their behalf with Almighty (and, and at the same time to do her honour, Pope Sixtus V., in the above-named Constitution, granted -
i. An indulgence of 200 days, every time these Litanies are said with devotion and contrition.
Pope Benedict XIII., by a decree of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, Jan. 12, 1728, confirmed this Indulgence; and Pope Pius VII., confirming it afresh by a decree of the same S. Congr. of Sept 30, 1817, extended it to 300 days.
He granted, moreover, to all who say them daily -
ii. A plenary Indulgence on the five Feasts of our Blessed Lady, of Obligation according to the Roman Calendar, viz, the Immaculate Conception, the Nativity, the Annunciation, the Purification, and the Assumption, on condition that, being truly contrite for their sins, and after Confession and Communion, they visit a public church, and pray according to the intention of the Pope.

LITANY OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN;

Commonly called the Litany of Loretto.

Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Christ hear us.
Christ graciously hear us.
God the Father of heaven, have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us.
God the Holy Ghost, have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us.

Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.
Mother of Christ, pray for us.
Mother of divine grace, pray for us.
Mother most pure, pray for us.
Mother most chaste, pray for us.
Mother inviolate, pray for us.
Mother undefiled, pray for us.
Mother most amiable, pray for us.
Mother most admirable, pray for us.
Mother of our Creator, pray for us.
Mother of our Redeemer, pray for us.
Virgin most prudent, pray for us.
Virgin most venerable, pray for us.
Virgin most renowned, pray for us.
Virgin most powerful, pray for us.
Virgin most merciful, pray for us.
Virgin most faithful, pray for us.
Mirror of justice, pray for us.
Seat of wisdom, pray for us.
Cause of our joy, pray for us.
Spiritual Vessel, pray for us.
Vessel of honour, pray for us.
Special Vessel of devotion, pray for us.
Mystical Rose, pray for us.
Tower of David, pray for us.
Tower of ivory, pray for us.
House of gold, pray for us.
Ark of the covenant, pray for us.
Gate of heaven, pray for us.
Morning star, pray for us.
Health of the sick, pray for us.
Refuge of sinners, pray for us.
Comforter of the afflicted, pray for us.
Help of Christians, pray for us.
Queen of Angels, pray for us.
Queen of Patriarchs, pray for us.
Queen of Prophets, pray for us.
Queen of Apostles, pray for us.
Queen of Martyrs, pray for us.
Queen of Confessors, pray for us.
Queen of Virgins, pray for us.
Queen of all Saints, pray for us.
Queen conceived without stain of original sin, pray for us.

Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, Graciously hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, Have mercy on us.
Christ hear us,
Christ graciously hear us.

V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let us pray.
Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord, Thy grace into our hearts; that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ Thy Son was made known by the message of an angel, may by His Passion + and Cross be brought to the glory of His resurrection. Through the same Christ our Lord. R. Amen.

V. May the divine assistance remain always with us. R. Amen.

[John Lamb]

It is logically impossible given the permissive will that sinner's will not be deficient and not resist sufficient grace, because these are also things that God permits and must permit for the sin to occur.

God's permission of man's deficient will (the refusal to cooperate with grace) is not the cause of that deficiency. God's permitting man to sin does not impose any necessity on the man; he is always free to cooperate with grace and not sin. Original sin did not take away man's free-will; God gives every man the liberty to be saved if they so chose.

In fact, WHATEVER defect you want to point to in the sinner, God had to permit that, otherwise it wouldn't be there; and such permission is ontologically primary to its presence.

. . . . such permission is ontologically primary to its presence.

A defect or deficiency has no ontological "presence" at all. God doesn't "create" any defect, e.g. God doesn't create darkness, He simply does not provide material light universally. Similarly, He doesn't create or cause a defective will in man, He simply does not provide the efficacious grace to supply that defect in all men. In the first place it's man that turned away from God; yes, God gave man the power to turn away from Him, but He did not give Him the defective will itself.

So yes, God had to permit EVERYTHING logically associated with the sin (otherwise the sin wouldn't occur), and so yes, it is logically impossible that sin does not occur given the totality of God's permissive will.

. . . it is logically impossible that sin does not occur given the totality of God's permissive will.

Yes, it's impossible that sin does not occur given the eternal decrees, but that's not to say that the sin is necessary or that it could not not occur.

St. Thomas:
Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said that the reprobated cannot obtain grace, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above (I:19:3), that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.

St. Thomas:
From the fact that God wills from eternity whatever He wills, it does not follow that He wills it necessarily; except by supposition.

So why didn't God manifest His justice instead by causing all creatures to be good and rewarding them?  Because, you must answer, He wishes to manifest His Justice in the universe by the particular means of punishment. 

Light appears greater in the midst of darkness. The merits and rewards of the saints are greater for having suffered injustice at the hands of sinners; therefore, by permitting some to sin and to test the saints thereby, there is a greater manifestation both of mercy and of justice in the universe. God could indeed have made every one good and every one happiness, but it would be a much inferior goodness and a much inferior happiness than the saints now enjoy for having persevered.

And it is monstrous, since such permission entails that someone act in a way worthy of punishment.  Why did he create the reprobate?  To manifest His justice - knowing full well the only way that could possibly happen is by eternal torment given His prior choice not to save them.

God permitting man to sin in no way entails absolutely that man will sin. It was not impossible for the reprobate to be saved; they only needed to cooperate with God's grace. The fact that God foreknew their refusal to cooperate, and permitted this refusal, is in no way the cause of their refusal. God's choice to not ultimately save a man is not the cause of his not being saved, it is only a condition of his not being saved. The cause is his own sin, which God plays no active part in. God did create the reprobate qua reprobate in order to manifest His justice, but that does not mean that God creates any man qua man for the sole purpose of manifesting His justice. In fact, every man (even the reprobate) is a recipient of God's mercy as well as God's justice. If God had no mercy for reprobate souls, they would never have any of the blessings of life, when in fact the lives of reprobates are often filled with many blessings.

And again, define "resistance" vs. "non-resistance".  If resistance to grace is an evil, then non-resistance must be a good, if all evils are deprivations of due goods.  But then non-resistance to grace is also something which must be moved from potency to act by God.

Why are you conceiving "non-resistance to grace" as if it were a being, a thing? Like I said, even rocks have a non-resistance to grace. God is not the cause of a "non-resistance to grace", He's the cause of an active cooperation with grace. The opposite to resisting grace is cooperating with it, not "non-resisting" it. Grace is not something that moves the will violently against its own freedom to cooperate.

[james03]

It's not impossible. The soul can cooperate with sufficient grace, it just doesn't.

And just to be clear, this includes those who have washed their garments in the blood of Christ and become reborn as children of God, partakers of the Divine.  Even these would NEVER cooperate with "sufficient" grace unless also given the super duper efficacious grace.  Is this your position?

[Xavier]

Let us consider with one concrete example how inconceivably great was the Mercy and Goodness of God toward the treasonous and perfidious reprobate Judas, who again and again was shown kindness and Love; whose feet were washed by the Saviour at the Last Supper; who received the Sacramental Body and Blood of the Lord together with the other Apostles; who by these and innumerable other means was given grace not to add sin unto sin; and then was given chances for remorse and penitence even after committing Deicide. But he obstinately resisted all these graces until the end, and thus final impenitence was produced in his soul. Let his life be a warning to all not to delay conversion to God.

"During these words and prayers of the Author of life Judas advanced in order to give the signal upon which he had agreed with his companions (Matth. 26, 48), namely the customary, but now feigned kiss of peace, by which they were to distinguish Jesus as the One whom they should single out from the rest and immediately seize. These precautions the unhappy disciple had taken, not only out of avarice for the money and hatred against his Master, but also, on account of the fear with which he was filled. For he dreaded the inevitable necessity of meeting Him and encountering Him in the future, if Christ was not put to death on this occasion. Such a confusion he feared more than the death of his soul, or the death of his divine Master, and, in order to forestall it, he hastened to complete his treachery and desired to see the Author of life die at the hands of his enemies. The traitor then ran up to the meekest Lord, and, as a consummate hypocrite hiding his hatred, he imprinted on his countenance the kiss of peace, saying: "God save Thee, Master." By this so treacherous act the perdition of Judas was matured and God was justified in withholding his grace and help. On the part of the unfaithful disciple, malice and temerity reached their highest degree; for, interiorly denying or disbelieving the uncreated and created wisdom by which Christ must know of his treason, and ignoring his power to destroy him, he sought to hide his malice under the cloak of the friendship of a true disciple; and all this for the purpose of delivering over to such a frightful and cruel death his Creator and Master, to whom he was bound by so many obligations. In this one act of treason he committed so many and such formidable sins, that it is impossible to fathom their immensity; for he was treacherous, murderous, sacrilegious, ungrateful, inhuman, disobedient, false, lying, impious and unequalled in hypocrisy; and all this was included in one and the same crime perpetrated against the person of God made man ...

This mercy attained its highest point in the disloyal and obstinate Judas; for the tender Mother, seeing him deliver Jesus by the kiss of feigned friendship and considering how shortly before his mouth had contained the sacramental body of the Lord, with whose sacred countenance so soon after those same foul lips were permitted to come in contact, was transfixed with sorrow and entranced by charity. She asked the Lord to grant new graces, whereby this man, who had enjoyed the privilege of touching the face whereon angels desire to look, might, if he chose to use them, save himself from perdition. In response to this prayer of most holy Mary, her Son and Lord granted Judas powerful graces in the very consummation of his treacherous delivery. If the unfortunate man had given heed and had commenced to respond to them, the Mother of mercy would have obtained for him many others and at last also pardon for his sin. She has done so with many other great sinners, who were willing to give that glory to Her and thus obtain eternal glory for themselves. But Judas failed to realize this and thus lost all chance of salvation, as I shall relate in the next chapter." (Mystical City of God)

[John Lamb]

It's not impossible. The soul can cooperate with sufficient grace, it just doesn't.

And just to be clear, this includes those who have washed their garments in the blood of Christ and become reborn as children of God, partakers of the Divine.  Even these would NEVER cooperate with "sufficient" grace unless also given the super duper efficacious grace.  Is this your position?

There is less obstacles to grace in the souls of the regenerate so grace tends to be more efficacious in them, i.e. they receive more efficacious graces. All graces given to Mary, for example, were efficacious. To "wash your garment in the blood of Christ and be reborn as a child of God" is a supremely efficacious grace.

[Xavier]

And here is the same incident in some more detail.

«I don't want your money, may you be damned» he shouts, standing in the middle of the hall, just where Jesus was previously. He looks like a demon who has come out of hell. Bleeding, unkempt, in a state of delirious fury, slavering, his hands like claws, he shouts and seems to be barking, so shrill and hoarse is his howling voice. «I don't want your money, you cursed ones. You have ruined me. You have made me commit the gravest sin. I am cursed like you! I have betrayed innocent Blood. May that Blood and my death fall upon you. Cursed! May you be cursed forever! Cursed be these walls! Cursed be this profaned Temple! Cursed be the deicide Pontiff! Cursed be the unworthy priests, the false doctors, the hypocritical Pharisees, the cruel Judaeans, the sly scribes! May I be accursed! Curse me! Keep your money and may it strangle your souls in your throats, as the halter strangles me» and he throws the purse in Caiaphas' teeth and goes away howling, while the coins tinkle spreading out on the floor after striking Caiaphas' mouth and making it bleed. No one dare stop him.

He goes out. He runs along the streets. And he fatally meets with Jesus twice again, as He goes and comes back from Herod. He departs from the town centre, taking the poorest lanes at random and he ends up again at the house of the Supper. It is all closed as if it were abandoned. He stops. He looks at it. «The Mother!» he whispers. «The Mother!...» He is undecided... «I have a mother as well! And I have killed a son of a mother!... And yet... I want to go in... To see that room again. There is no blood in there...»

«Blood! Blood! Blood also here! His Blood! His Blood!... "Do this in memory of Me!... Take this and drink it. This is My Blood... The Blood of the new testament that will be shed for you Ha! I am cursed! It can no longer be shed for me to remit my sin. I do not ask to be forgiven, because He cannot forgive me. Away, away! There is no place where the Cain of God may find peace. Death! Death to me!...»

He goes out. He finds himself in front of Mary, Who is standing at the door of the room where Jesus left Her. Hearing a noise, She has looked out, hoping perhaps to see John, who has been away such a long time. She looks as pale as if She had lost all Her blood. Grief has made Her eyes resemble even more those of Her Son. Judas meets those eyes that look at him with the same sorrowful conscious knowledge with which Jesus looked at him in the street, and uttering a frightened «Oh!» he leans against the wall.

«Judas!» says Mary, «Judas, why have you come?» The same words as Jesus'. And they are spoken with sad love. Judas remembers them and shouts.
«Judas» repeats Mary «what have you done? To so much love have you replied by betraying?» Mary's voice is a trembling caress.
Judas is about to run away. Mary calls him with a voice that should have converted a demon. «Judas! Judas! Stop! Stop! Listen!I am telling you in His name: repent, Judas. He forgives...» Judas has run away. Mary's voice, Her appearance, have been the coup de grace, or rather of disgrace, because he resists Her ...

(Jesus says) My Mother, and She was Grace that was speaking and My Treasurer that was granting forgiveness in My name, said to him: "Repent, Judas. He forgives..." Oh! I would have forgiven him! If he had only thrown himself at the feet of My Mother saying: "Mercy!" She, the Merciful Mother, would have picked him up as a woundedman, and on his satanic wounds, through which the Enemy had imbued him with the Crime, She would have shed Her tears that save and She would have brought him to Me, to the foot of the Cross, holding him by the hand, so that Satan might not snatch him and the disciples might not strike him. She would have brought him so that My Blood might fall first of all on him, the greatest of all sinners ...

But he did not want. Meditate on the power of free will, of which you are the absolute arbiters. Through it you can have Heaven or Hell. Meditate on what persisting in sin means.(From Poem of the Man God)

Here, we see Judas remained obstinate until the end, refusing so many and such great graces, and only therefore died in final impenitence as a reprobate. It is clear here that man's reprobation is not antecedent but consequent to grave persistence in sin. Even after such great temerity, malice and criminal treason, Judas could have been pardoned. But he did not wish to be.

[james03]

There is less obstacles to grace in the souls of the regenerate so grace tends to be more efficacious in them, i.e. they receive more efficacious graces. All graces given to Mary, for example, were efficacious. To "wash your garment in the blood of Christ and be reborn as a child of God" is a supremely efficacious grace.

Dude, you have some degree of intelligence and must realize that you attempted deceit with this answer.  You need to self reflect on that.  You know that your beliefs are absurd, otherwise you would have answered my question:

Under your system, is it your belief that the regenerated won't cooperate with "sufficient" grace unless they are also given efficacious grace?

[james03]

Found the St. Thomas quote, SCG, III, 159.  Hat tip to Gardener who evidently O.D.'d on copenhagen and passed out.

And since this ability to impede or not to impede the reception of divine grace is within the scope of free choice, not undeservedly is responsibility for the fault imputed to him who offers an impediment to the reception of grace.

There is only Grace, not efficacious or sufficient.  It is free.  It is mercy.  We can't demand it.  However it is within the scope of free will to choose to impede this grace, or not to.  This is Congruentism, and St. Thomas was a Congruentist.

[John Lamb]

Under your system, is it your belief that the regenerated won't cooperate with "sufficient" grace unless they are also given efficacious grace?

Yes. Christians resist many graces in their lives. They do not cooperate with the sufficient graces given to them unless efficacious grace infallibly moves their will to cooperate. Nobody, not even a Christian, can perform a single good act unless God provides an actual efficacious grace moving their will towards it.

[james03]

Yes. Christians resist many graces in their lives. They do not cooperate with the sufficient graces given to them unless efficacious grace infallibly moves their will to cooperate. Nobody, not even a Christian, can perform a single good act unless God provides an actual efficacious grace moving their will towards it.

Thanks for your honesty.  This is Luther's soteriology.  Even the regenerated Christian is still a dung pile covered with snow, incapable of doing any good, even responding to grace.  Sanctifying Grace is reduced to a legal declaration.

[Michael Wilson]

Under your system, is it your belief that the regenerated won't cooperate with "sufficient" grace unless they are also given efficacious grace?

Yes. Christians resist many graces in their lives. They do not cooperate with the sufficient graces given to them unless efficacious grace infallibly moves their will to cooperate. Nobody, not even a Christian, can perform a single good act unless God provides an actual efficacious grace moving their will towards it.

Well that is what we (Quare, James, Myself and the adversaries of Banez et al) have stated is the objection to this system: A man is given "sufficient grace" so that he may avoid sin and obey God; but man cannot do anything else but reject this grace, because in this system, he needs another grace, i.e. Efficacious grace in order to do so.
Man is therefore condemned for not doing what is metaphysically impossible for him to do. This is not coherent.