Thoughts on Orchestral Masses?

[Forum Poster]

Does anyone have any opinions on orchestral Masses? I'm referring to eighteenth-century style Mass settings that make use of full classical orchestras. For example, here's a Requiem Mass celebrated for the repose of Mozart's soul on the two hundredth anniversary of his death, which utilized his own Requiem according to the completion by one of his associates (it was incomplete at his death):

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=CPGx76vR414

I like listening to these classical Mass settings and wrote three myself, but I just can't imagine actually singing this kind of music at Mass. The use of soloists seems to run afoul of current liturgical law, but perhaps there are allowances made for local custom.

[The Curt Jester]

Orchestral Mass is a rather broad term and I'm sure there are varying levels of them.  I don't listen to them much as I don't find that type of music particularly entertaining and I find much of it to be far too bombastic for use at Mass.

That said, I'm sure some of them are more reserved. One of the Masses a choir I was in sang was great until the solo parts came and the sense quickly shifted from sacred to secular.  And then when the soloists stopped and the choir began singing again, it shifted once more, but the mood at that point was lost.

Another time I attended Mass at a parish which sang one of Mozart's Masses.  The music was beautiful, but honestly, I was extremely distracted by it and had difficulty praying. It seemed more appropriate to a concert hall.

[Forum Poster]

That said, I'm sure some of them are more reserved. One of the Masses a choir I was in sang was great until the solo parts came and the sense quickly shifted from sacred to secular.  And then when the soloists stopped and the choir began singing again, it shifted once more, but the mood at that point was lost.

Solos tend to have that effect, especially if the singers insist on singing in a very operatic style. I would definitely say that most of Mozart's non-secular music does not actually fall into the category of sacred music (i.e. for liturgical use) but rather religious music (i.e. the composer's personal expression of faith, but not for liturgical use). One thing I find quite bizarre is the concept of the "Church sonata," a short instrumental piece played between the Epistle and Gospel; it was customary in Salzburg in Mozart's day. That would have been quite jarring.

[moneil]

I personally prefer the organ to orchestra instruments.  At Christmas time (Advent actually), and again at Easter, I'm always disappointed when a concert of seasonal music is offered (typically I am watching on broadcast television or by broadband) in a church or hall noted for a fine organ, but the choir is primarily accompanied by an orchestra.  The most common exception seems to be the Anglicans, for whom the "king of instruments" maintains its rightful place.

[Forum Poster]

I personally prefer the organ to orchestra instruments.  At Christmas time (Advent actually), and again at Easter, I'm always disappointed when a concert of seasonal music is offered (typically I am watching on broadcast television or by broadband) in a church or hall noted for a fine organ, but the choir is primarily accompanied by an orchestra.  The most common exception seems to be the Anglicans, for whom the "king of instruments" maintains its rightful place.

A classical orchestra usually does contain an organ, but normally, the organist is simply playing the bass line from the score and reading from figured bass (basically numbers written under the bass note instructing the organist which chord to play). That same bass line is played by the cellos and basses in the orchestra, and given the size of many orchestras, the sound of the organ is nearly entirely drowned out. Even the classical composers who favored orchestral Masses would find this bizarre.

[Heinrich]

Another time I attended Mass at a parish which sang one of Mozart's Masses.  The music was beautiful, but honestly, I was extremely distracted by it and had difficulty praying. It seemed more appropriate to a concert hall.

Here, too. I assisted at one in Munich. There was an element of majesty, as you said.

[Prayerful]

I thought Tra le Sollecitudini forbade such a thing, however utterly magnificent they could be. Honestly a certain type of High Mass can be perplexing despite the artful singing of the gradual, Agnus Dei, Credo or other parts. I almost prefer the Low Mass as I know exactly where I am and where the priest is. Also it's efficient.

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[Forum Poster]

I thought Tra le Sollecitudini forbade such a thing, however utterly magnificent they could be.

Some parts of that document are no longer in effect (though that's a whole separate thread in itself); however, I believe that orchestral Masses have persisted in some countries as a matter of local custom or a special permission, which is different from the ordinary law.

[Prayerful]

I thought Tra le Sollecitudini forbade such a thing, however utterly magnificent they could be.

Some parts of that document are no longer in effect (though that's a whole separate thread in itself); however, I believe that orchestral Masses have persisted in some countries as a matter of local custom or a special permission, which is different from the ordinary law.

I think one general thing is that if something is a fixed and long standing custom, or local bishops or kings were so minded, it withstands even Papal law to the contrary, hence France ignored Trent and edited local liturgies at will, subject to royal permission, the Austrian use of a substantially German Mass after Emperor Joseph I think, and Ireland had De profundis recited by the priest and people after Low Mass until Nov 1960.

[Jean Carrier]

I thought Tra le Sollecitudini forbade such a thing, however utterly magnificent they could be.

Some parts of that document are no longer in effect (though that's a whole separate thread in itself); however, I believe that orchestral Masses have persisted in some countries as a matter of local custom or a special permission, which is different from the ordinary law.

I think one general thing is that if something is a fixed and long standing custom, or local bishops or kings were so minded, it withstands even Papal law to the contrary, hence France ignored Trent and edited local liturgies at will, subject to royal permission, the Austrian use of a substantially German Mass after Emperor Joseph I think, and Ireland had De profundis recited by the priest and people after Low Mass until Nov 1960.

I'd be wary of the first two examples. France was a hotbed of Jansenism and Gallicanism, while the case in Germany involved an Emperor whom was intoxicated with Febronianism. All of these positions were condemned at Vatican I.

The last example would seem more fit to your point though.

[AlfredtheGreat]

I find them somewhat garish. While the composition may be beautiful the Church has sacred music sanctified by long usage which is especially appropriate for Mass. Orchestral Masses may have the Sacred as the object but the music itself is worldly. Beautiful for a concert, not for Mass.

[Prayerful]

I thought Tra le Sollecitudini forbade such a thing, however utterly magnificent they could be.

Some parts of that document are no longer in effect (though that's a whole separate thread in itself); however, I believe that orchestral Masses have persisted in some countries as a matter of local custom or a special permission, which is different from the ordinary law.

I think one general thing is that if something is a fixed and long standing custom, or local bishops or kings were so minded, it withstands even Papal law to the contrary, hence France ignored Trent and edited local liturgies at will, subject to royal permission, the Austrian use of a substantially German Mass after Emperor Joseph I think, and Ireland had De profundis recited by the priest and people after Low Mass until Nov 1960.

I'd be wary of the first two examples. France was a hotbed of Jansenism and Gallicanism, while the case in Germany involved an Emperor whom was intoxicated with Febronianism. All of these positions were condemned at Vatican I.

The last example would seem more fit to your point though.

The aftermath of V1 saw the de-facto disappearance of some ancient French Uses which did have some neo-Gallican context, dated in many cases to the original Gallican age of the Merovingians where the Mass we recognise was formed and perhaps helped form the idea that a Pope could do as he pleased with liturgy, a false and wrong idea. A Pope protects and conserves.