Old Catholics

[OCLittleFlower]

Obviously, they are in schism. But are their ordinations valid? Do they have the Eucharist?

[TerrorDæmonum]

They are not unified. Some of them "ordain" women and promote homosexuality and some of them do not.

Their ordinations are questionable now and you have to consider the details of apostolic succession.

I don't know the latest developments and these things can move quickly, so it might be even more questionable or invalid than I think.

[Prayerful]

Obviously, they are in schism. But are their ordinations valid? Do they have the Eucharist?

The oldest part, the Utrecht Union, now conducts pretended ordinations of women and expelled some of their austere Eastern European erstwhile federates who reject that. If some traces their lineage, it is about the same as any schismatic, and honestly, someone has to do as much with any independent priest.

[ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez]

Obviously, they are in schism. But are their ordinations valid? Do they have the Eucharist?

The oldest part, the Utrecht Union, now conducts pretended ordinations of women and expelled some of their austere Eastern European erstwhile federates who reject that. If some traces their lineage, it is about the same as any schismatic, and honestly, someone has to do as much with any independent priest.

If they think they can ordain women, then it would seem that they don't understand the priesthood well enough to have the correct intention when attempting to confer it on men.

[Prayerful]

Obviously, they are in schism. But are their ordinations valid? Do they have the Eucharist?

The oldest part, the Utrecht Union, now conducts pretended ordinations of women and expelled some of their austere Eastern European erstwhile federates who reject that. If some traces their lineage, it is about the same as any schismatic, and honestly, someone has to do as much with any independent priest.

If they think they can ordain women, then it would seem that they don't understand the priesthood well enough to have the correct intention when attempting to confer it on men.

That's seems like it, but there are OCs who reject women 'priests,' like +Jerome Lloyd who owns a restaurant that employs homeless men. The Anglican can have similar women in priestly garb offering some sort of Anglo-Catholic, near Tridentine liturgy, or even the TLM. The Church is not dress up.

[OCLittleFlower]

The particular group I ran across seems to be this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church_of_America

[TerrorDæmonum]

The particular group I ran across seems to be this one:

Independents certainly seem to branch off from each other rapidly.

I am not familiar with them, but reading that is interesting. They use a modified Nicene Creed and a modified 1917 Code of Canon Law. I guess they modified themselves into thinking they are not in the wrong.

These episcopi vagantes really get around. Unless one has an emergency situation, it is probably best and safest to ignore them.

[Ragnarok]

If their matter, form, and intent are theologically correct, and they received ordination from a Church with valid Apostolic Succession. They have it. It depends.

You should be careful when it comes to wandering Bishops and weird groups. Although I'm sure there are some good people, sometimes there are real non-theological reasons why they are in schism. Organized crime, bizarre theology / moral teachings, cult-like behavior, etc.

The Coptic Orthodox Church learned that the hard way when they re-united with the "British Orthodox Church" in Britain, only to find out that their head Patriarch was hiding the fact he was a Thelemite (following Aleister Crowley). The Coptic Church did find out and broke off from them, and even today this "Patriarch Seraphim" is the head of an explicitly Thelemite society in Britain.

[Prayerful]

A big issue with Old Catholics is they often seem to have more bishops and priests than laity. Given how the Ultrecht Union is breaking ties with the non woke, that won't change. There's also old breakaways like the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church (not to be confused with a now nearly defunct Protestant community) of Duarte Costa, who was excommunicated in 1945, another source of independent orders. Another somewhat similar body are the Mariavites of Poland who were formed by excommunication in 1906 and have had women 'priests' in the late 1920s but ended that in the mid 30s, resulting in schism. Most stayed with the Old Catholic Mariavites which no longer had women 'priests.' They are Old Catholic but have no ties to the Utrecht Union. Some sees it's seminal text (The Work of Great Mercy) as having some link with Divine Mercy, but the visionary Koz?owska appears to have a common Polish surname. Honestly TV or internet Mass with a missal seems a wiser choice than them.

[TerrorDæmonum]

A big issue with Old Catholics is they often seem to have more bishops and priests than laity.

These clerici and episcopi vagantes make me think of the first chapter of the Rule of St Benedict.

[Prayerful]

A big issue with Old Catholics is they often seem to have more bishops and priests than laity.

These clerici and episcopi vagantes make me think of the first chapter of the Rule of St Benedict.

Rambling, roving, rootless priests and bishops, bishops without either definite roles or territory, bishops in a garage as Fr Cekada RIP called them once, are a generally unseemly thing.

[dueSicilie]

Near us there is a pair of "archbishops" that claim to be "eastern right", yet they have a TLM. This is a town with a shrine where there was a claimed (and condemned) Marian apparition in 1950. The shrine and the visionary later became associated with some kind of schismatic old catholic group. Very odd indeed. This is in Necedah, WI

[Prayerful]

Near us there is a pair of "archbishops" that claim to be "eastern right", yet they have a TLM. This is a town with a shrine where there was a claimed (and condemned) Marian apparition in 1950. The shrine and the visionary later became associated with some kind of schismatic old catholic group. Very odd indeed. This is in Necedah, WI

Repeatedly condemned by the diocesan ordinary who even allow a second opinion of sorts:

1952 (April):  Bishop Treacy asked Van Hoof to report to Marquette University Medical University for a ten-day medical exam. The exam coincided with Holy Week (April 7-12). The results of these tests convinced Church authorities that Van Hoof's experiences were not supernatural.

source

The parish priest, Fr Lengowski, of St Francis of Assisi church was support, and was likely transferred for that reason. Consecrated in 1979 by an old Catholic bishop Edward Stehlik who later returned to the Church as a layman and denounced the vision as a hoax. Perhaps the priest in charge was ordained by Eastern Rite episcopus vagans. Seems definitely something to avoid.