Author Topic: Is reality relative?  (Read 458 times)

Offline james03

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Re: Is reality relative?
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2021, 12:10:05 AM »
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If something is an illusion, it just means that we see it as one thing when it is really something else. We see the self as existing on its own, when it was really constructed by you. You created your own sense of self.

But the "we" exists and is the reality that is viewing the illusion?  Or is this "we" also an illusion, and as I said, off to infinity.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline Probius

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Re: Is reality relative?
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2021, 03:48:27 PM »
Quote
If something is an illusion, it just means that we see it as one thing when it is really something else. We see the self as existing on its own, when it was really constructed by you. You created your own sense of self.

But the "we" exists and is the reality that is viewing the illusion?  Or is this "we" also an illusion, and as I said, off to infinity.

Yes, you exist, I exist, and we exist. The illusion is that there is this "I" that exists independently of everything else in the universe.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection.” - The Buddha

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” - Carl Jung
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Is reality relative?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2021, 08:06:40 PM »
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If something is an illusion, it just means that we see it as one thing when it is really something else. We see the self as existing on its own, when it was really constructed by you. You created your own sense of self.

But the "we" exists and is the reality that is viewing the illusion?  Or is this "we" also an illusion, and as I said, off to infinity.

Yes, you exist, I exist, and we exist. The illusion is that there is this "I" that exists independently of everything else in the universe.

So the distinctions of identity between I, you and we that allow for a relationship to occur are illusory?

If so, once again, this conversation is bizarre, isn't it? It's an eternal nous talking to itself?
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Is reality relative?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2021, 09:23:48 PM »
Trying to keep track here.  So the we is an illusion viewed by the I.  But the I is an illusion.  An illusion to who exactly?  Off to infinity. 
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline james03

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Re: Is reality relative?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2021, 12:28:00 AM »
This looks familiar.

Reality is an illusion viewed by we.
But we is an illusion view by I.
But I is illusion viewed by who.
I got it!  Who is viewing the illusion!

If reality is an illusion, who is viewing the illusion?
Precisely!

Who's on first?  I don't know.  He's on third.

When your philosophy ends in absurdities, it's time to look at your premise.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 
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Offline Probius

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Re: Is reality relative?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2021, 12:28:02 PM »
Quote
If something is an illusion, it just means that we see it as one thing when it is really something else. We see the self as existing on its own, when it was really constructed by you. You created your own sense of self.

But the "we" exists and is the reality that is viewing the illusion?  Or is this "we" also an illusion, and as I said, off to infinity.

Yes, you exist, I exist, and we exist. The illusion is that there is this "I" that exists independently of everything else in the universe.

So the distinctions of identity between I, you and we that allow for a relationship to occur are illusory?

If so, once again, this conversation is bizarre, isn't it? It's an eternal nous talking to itself?

Yes, exactly! It is bizarre and that's why I find it so fascinating. Anyone who would claim that this isn't bizarre isn't really thinking about what Rovelli is saying. I can't just sit back and accept boring ideas about the word and that's it. I like to wrestle with wild fanciful ideas. I eventually wind up rejecting most of the ideas I wrestle with, but I feel like I have grown from wrestling with these ideas.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection.” - The Buddha

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” - Carl Jung
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Is reality relative?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2021, 04:21:46 PM »
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If something is an illusion, it just means that we see it as one thing when it is really something else. We see the self as existing on its own, when it was really constructed by you. You created your own sense of self.

But the "we" exists and is the reality that is viewing the illusion?  Or is this "we" also an illusion, and as I said, off to infinity.

Yes, you exist, I exist, and we exist. The illusion is that there is this "I" that exists independently of everything else in the universe.

So the distinctions of identity between I, you and we that allow for a relationship to occur are illusory?

If so, once again, this conversation is bizarre, isn't it? It's an eternal nous talking to itself?

Yes, exactly! It is bizarre and that's why I find it so fascinating. Anyone who would claim that this isn't bizarre isn't really thinking about what Rovelli is saying. I can't just sit back and accept boring ideas about the word and that's it. I like to wrestle with wild fanciful ideas. I eventually wind up rejecting most of the ideas I wrestle with, but I feel like I have grown from wrestling with these ideas.

Bizarre is a euphemism, Probius.

What you are proposing is nonsensical. It means you and I aren't really distinct which cannot be a reasonable mechanism to explain reality, let alone a reasonable assumption of our thoughts and experiences.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 04:25:20 PM by Vetus Ordo »
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline Probius

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Re: Is reality relative?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2021, 08:48:43 PM »
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If something is an illusion, it just means that we see it as one thing when it is really something else. We see the self as existing on its own, when it was really constructed by you. You created your own sense of self.

But the "we" exists and is the reality that is viewing the illusion?  Or is this "we" also an illusion, and as I said, off to infinity.

Yes, you exist, I exist, and we exist. The illusion is that there is this "I" that exists independently of everything else in the universe.

So the distinctions of identity between I, you and we that allow for a relationship to occur are illusory?

If so, once again, this conversation is bizarre, isn't it? It's an eternal nous talking to itself?

Yes, exactly! It is bizarre and that's why I find it so fascinating. Anyone who would claim that this isn't bizarre isn't really thinking about what Rovelli is saying. I can't just sit back and accept boring ideas about the word and that's it. I like to wrestle with wild fanciful ideas. I eventually wind up rejecting most of the ideas I wrestle with, but I feel like I have grown from wrestling with these ideas.

Bizarre is a euphemism, Probius.

What you are proposing is nonsensical. It means you and I aren't really distinct which cannot be a reasonable mechanism to explain reality, let alone a reasonable assumption of our thoughts and experiences.

I like the word bizarre. I wouldn't want to live in a world which had no bizarre things.

I'm not proposing anything. I have merely presented an idea for discussion. Whether it is true or not is not really relevant to me. It is the journey, not the destination, which I find important.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection.” - The Buddha

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” - Carl Jung