Orthodox Not Interested in Reunion with Rome

Started by Vetus Ordo, July 02, 2021, 05:14:07 PM

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Michael Wilson

You can't have "unity'' with a moving mass of doctrinal and liturgical confusion; which is what the Conciliar Church is.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

diaduit


Prayerful

Quote from: diaduit on July 18, 2021, 04:50:49 AM
https://orthodoxtimes.com/archbishop-of-cyprus-salary-cut-for-priests-who-call-on-faithful-not-to-be-vaccinated-or-to-wear-masks/

Archbishop of Cyprus: Salary cut for priests who call on faithful not to be vaccinated or to wear masks

Russia has seen the same with a foreign relations official for the Patriarchate (Hilarion I think) claiming that not taking it was a sin. Orthodox churches generally cleave to the state.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

crossingtherubicon

Quote from: Michael Wilson on July 17, 2021, 12:12:02 PM
You can't have "unity'' with a moving mass of doctrinal and liturgical confusion; which is what the Conciliar Church is.

Lots of problems need solving, and a few mountains that need to be moved.

OCLittleFlower

Considering what Pope Francis is like, I can't rightly blame them for not wanting "reunion." Doesn't make the Orthodox perfect by any means, but I don't even know how I would begin to attempt to convince an Orthodox friend of our positions, to be honest.
-- currently writing a Trad romance entitled Flirting with Sedevacantism --

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crossingtherubicon

Quote from: OCLittleFlower on July 19, 2021, 11:33:23 PM
Considering what Pope Francis is like, I can't rightly blame them for not wanting "reunion." Doesn't make the Orthodox perfect by any means, but I don't even know how I would begin to attempt to convince an Orthodox friend of our positions, to be honest.

Our positions are 95% the same, and what I mean by that is we both believe something almost unbelievable and that is that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, which is quite the claim and from the outside seems crazy.

If Pope Francis can send the TLM to a museum with a one page document, another Pope could take it out of the museum with a one page document, the pendulum swings to the right, the pendulum swings to the left, and the final goal has always been to have a Kingdom where Christ is King, a real supernatural kingdom with physical properties, that is liturgical, where like breathing in and breathing out the Father will draw people into the liturgical festival of Christ the King and then people will scatter and be drawn back for the liturgical festival of Our Lady Nazareth Queen of Heaven, and truly that place will be full of life beyond the limits of our imagination or hopes or expectations. People need to focus on the end goal, work their way backwards from that, and align their hopes and dreams for the Church with the Master and Commander Jesus Christ, and believe its possible, and proceed from there.

King Wenceslas

Quote from: revival2029 on July 19, 2021, 11:06:46 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on July 17, 2021, 12:12:02 PM
You can't have "unity'' with a moving mass of doctrinal and liturgical confusion; which is what the Conciliar Church is.

Lots of problems need solving, and a few mountains that need to be moved.

Untangling knots which I hear God is quite good at when he puts mind to it.

Justin Martyr

The only times I can recall the Photian Schismatics as having been interested in reunion was when they thought itd help them save the Greek Empire. And even then, most held to the maxim of "better the Turkish turban than the Latin mitre."

Though, I forget why they submitted during the Acacian Schism. Probably the Emperor.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Amos

QuoteWhen it comes to theology, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches are very close. We accept the same Nicene Creed, we recognize each other's priestly and episcopal ordinations, as well as the sacraments of baptism, confession and Eucharist. Catholic and Orthodox teaching on morals are also quite compatible, with both being more conservative than their Protestant colleagues.

This article, while not explicitly promoting it, *implies* that there are few differences between Catholicism and "Orthodox." It also huddles the various "Orthodox" sects into one entity, as if they all agreed. It's stuff like this that makes me run into Catholics who think the "Orthodox" are one unified entity who only have a problem with the Papacy.

The theology is closer to Catholicism, but "very close?"

Divine Energies
Filioque
Divorce and remarriage
Denying Purgatory
Escaping the hell of the damned
Original Sin (Immaculate Conception by extension)
Contraception
Immediate and universal jurisdiction of the Pope

This is only the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. Some stuff goes way deep like Christology, but it's been a while since I studied.
I mean, yeah it's closer than a lot of protestants but "very close" is not accurate.


Xavier

#24
Pope Francis recently exchanged relics with Patriarch Bartholomew. Patriarch Bartholomew has said re-union with the Catholic Church is inevitable. The Church would become much stronger with the return of the Orthodox. Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy of Moscow was in favor of Summorum Pontificum. Maybe someone should ask Patriarch Bartholomew to ask Rome to stop trying to restrict the TLM?

Article: From: https://orthochristian.com/125924.html

"On November 12, Patriarch Bartholomew participated in the Vespers service at the Catholic Abbey of Our Lady of St. Rémy in Rochefort, Belgium, together with Archimandrite Alexios, the abbot of Xenophontos Monastery, and Hieromonk Theophilos of Pantocrator Monastery, both on Mt. Athos.

According to a new report from the Union of Orthodox Journalists, during his trip to Mt. Athos the previous month, Pat. Bartholomew attempted to convince several Athonite abbots and monks that there are no dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and that reunion with the Catholic church is inevitable."

Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI did much to convince the Orthodox to come home to Rome. The main dogmatic difference is Filioque. Please see: https://onepeterfive.com/filioque-separated-east/ and http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/procession.htm about Filioque. St. Robert in particular has great proofs for Filioque from the Early Councils and the Dogmatic Tradition.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Prayerful

Quote from: Xavier on July 31, 2021, 01:12:35 AM
Pope Francis recently exchanged relics with Patriarch Bartholomew. Patriarch Bartholomew has said re-union with the Catholic Church is inevitable. The Church would become much stronger with the return of the Orthodox. Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy of Moscow was in favor of Summorum Pontificum. Maybe someone should ask Patriarch Bartholomew to ask Rome to stop trying to restrict the TLM?

Article: From: https://orthochristian.com/125924.html

"On November 12, Patriarch Bartholomew participated in the Vespers service at the Catholic Abbey of Our Lady of St. Rémy in Rochefort, Belgium, together with Archimandrite Alexios, the abbot of Xenophontos Monastery, and Hieromonk Theophilos of Pantocrator Monastery, both on Mt. Athos.

According to a new report from the Union of Orthodox Journalists, during his trip to Mt. Athos the previous month, Pat. Bartholomew attempted to convince several Athonite abbots and monks that there are no dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and that reunion with the Catholic church is inevitable."

Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI did much to convince the Orthodox to come home to Rome. The main dogmatic difference is Filioque. Please see: https://onepeterfive.com/filioque-separated-east/ and http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/procession.htm about Filioque. St. Robert in particular has great proofs for Filioque from the Early Councils and the Dogmatic Tradition.

Patriarch Bartholomew can say what he likes, but there has been a break, a schism with the Patriarchate of Moscow over Ukraine. Any deal with Constantinople is a joke if Moscow won't hold to it.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

Ragnarok

#26
Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 02:40:42 PM
Though, I forget why they submitted during the Acacian Schism. Probably the Emperor.

Catholics constantly dig against the Orthodox because there's really not a lot of separation of Church and State between the Russian government and the Russian Orthodox Church, and historically, there never really was in any of the Orthodox Churches.

However, isn't this exactly what Traditional Catholics (and even Neo-Conservative Catholics like Tim Staples, who in his own words, wants to see a return to Catholic monarchy) constantly clamor for? In 2012, when a feminist Liberal punk group protested in the Russian Orthodox Patriarch's Cathedral by playing blasphemous punk songs in Church, they were arrested and charged with "hooliganism motivated by religious hatred", and that they were "undermining the civil order".

Think what would happen if under Putin, a bunch of Marxists burned down Churches in Russia. It would by the Bear's Wrath devouring them. In Canada, you get a complicit government who, at best, blames both the arsonists and the Churches for it; at worst, blames the Churches for it.

Michael Wilson

The difference between the Orthodox view of Church and State and the Catholic view, is that the Catholics see the relationship and the "indirect" subordination of the state to the Church, i.e. The state is not an appendage of the Church, but autonomous in its own sphere; that of the natural end of its citizens; while the Church's aim is the supernatural end of its members. There is therefore areas where the state is independent e.g. Road taxes, manner of regime, training and selecting of its functionaries. There is the area where the Church is independent: teaching, administering the sacraments; etc. etc. There are also areas where there is "mixed" dominion; and that is why the state and Church must co-operate to make sure that there is harmony and not conflict between the two powers. That is why the Church promoted formal co-operation and agreements between secular governments and the Church called "Concordats", to ensure that this co-operation and peace would be ensured. But where the conflicts would not be solved, the state was to yield to the higher power, which was the Church.
In the Orthodox system, ultimately the Church became subservient to the state, because there was no counter-balance to the power of the state; the Emperor of Constantinople appointed the Patriarch of Constantinople and could depose him; the same for the Czar of Russia for the Holy Synod. The Emperor/Czar was the ultimate authority in the Church. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Ragnarok

#28
Quote from: Michael Wilson on July 31, 2021, 02:53:59 PM
In the Orthodox system, ultimately the Church became subservient to the state, because there was no counter-balance to the power of the state; the Emperor of Constantinople appointed the Patriarch of Constantinople and could depose him; the same for the Czar of Russia for the Holy Synod. The Emperor/Czar was the ultimate authority in the Church.

Practically, yes, theologically, no - the Emperor / Czar / King received his divine authority from the Orthodox Church and was supposed to be indirectly subservient to it, which is why the Tsar was anointed with oil mimicking King David's appointment, and which is why in the Russian Liturgy (even today) the Tsar is called "God's Anointed One"

A painting of the Coronation of Tsar Nicholas II:



Although practically speaking, you are absolutely correct - Tsar Peter the Great abolished the Patriarchate of Moscow and reduced the Russian Church to a synod, and this was the case for centuries until the future Tsars re-allowed the Patriarchate's existence.


The power and organization of the Papacy (along with it having its own territory at points, the Papal States) definitely made it more historically independent than the state-run Churches of Russia or Byzantium, but don't imagine that the Emperor approving Papacies never happened - it happened under the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_Papacy

And let's not forget how Napoleon took control of the Roman Catholic Church in France, declaring himself head of the Church in France

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallicanism



Still, none of this negates the point that a Traditional Catholic should be happy to see the government and Church working together to punish blasphemers.

Michael Wilson

Napoleon took Pius VI prisoner and when he died, proclaimed that the Papacy had ended. The Cardinals gathered in secret conclave and elected Pius VII.
The Emperors never had the Power to appoint Popes or depose them; though they did interfere with elections; but the Popes proved to be too independent of any secular ruler.
What is wrong with the Church and state working together to punish blasphemers? I am not speaking of a worker who hits his thumb with a hammer while working; how about a movie that is produced portraying our Lord and our Lady in a very blasphemous and indecent manner (as has happened on several occasions)  Should the movie company be free to publicize the movie? Should it be allowed to be shown in movie theaters and released in videos?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers