I don't want to go to Mass anymore

Started by Hannelore, September 10, 2023, 05:51:39 PM

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Michael Wilson

Here is a quote on the necessary intention for a valid Consecration in the Mass.
QuoteMoral Theology: A Complete Course, John A. McHough, O.P. And Charles Callan, O.P.
V-II. pg. 663.
b) Duties as regards Valid Consecration.-Internally, there must be the intention (actual or virtual) of acting in the name of Christ, and of effecting what the words of consecration signify; and hence a merely narrative recitation of the form is insufficient. This actual or virtual intention must also determine the individual matter to be consecrated, and hence a host placed on the corporal is not consecrated if the priest neither saw it nor took it up for consecration.
It would be highly doubtful if the above mentioned priest had the intention of "effecting what the words signify", especially since he doesn't believe that they signify what they do.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Hannelore

Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2023, 04:48:13 PMHere is a quote on the necessary intention for a valid Consecration in the Mass.
QuoteMoral Theology: A Complete Course, John A. McHough, O.P. And Charles Callan, O.P.
V-II. pg. 663.
b) Duties as regards Valid Consecration.-Internally, there must be the intention (actual or virtual) of acting in the name of Christ, and of effecting what the words of consecration signify; and hence a merely narrative recitation of the form is insufficient. This actual or virtual intention must also determine the individual matter to be consecrated, and hence a host placed on the corporal is not consecrated if the priest neither saw it nor took it up for consecration.
It would be highly doubtful if the above mentioned priest had the intention of "effecting what the words signify", especially since he doesn't believe that they signify what they do.
20 years of invalid Communions.  :'(
My Lord and my God.

josh987654321

#47
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2023, 04:48:13 PMIt would be highly doubtful if the above mentioned priest had the intention of "effecting what the words signify", especially since he doesn't believe that they signify what they do.

Remember too the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano ), this Priest no longer believed, yet the formula was uncharged and the Eucharist was still valid as testament by the miracle.

(Also something else I just realized with the Miracle of Lanciano I never knew before, he probably very much disbelieved because being of the Byzantine rite he would have likely believed that valid matter needed to be leavened bread and not unleavened bread).

Furthermore, if private and internal intent/disposition alone were so crucial, then this is a near impossible standard, we can all be second guessing at any point. Someone who believes today could doubt tomorrow, unless there is a Eucharistic Miracle where the 'accidents' also change, then none of us can be 100% sure, we can only do the best we can (unchanged formula) with the available options, have faith and let Christ take care of the rest.

Quote from: Bernadette on September 15, 2023, 05:09:18 PM20 years of invalid Communions.  :'(

I wouldn't be too quick to say that, you cannot be 100% sure anyway unless the formula was changed, you can only be better safe than sorry IMO, therefore opting for the best available options and you had the same Priest for 20 years? I thought the Priests moved around different Churches after a certain amount of time?

God Bless
"I will not delude you with prospects of peace and consolations; on the contrary, prepare for great battles. Know that you are now on a great stage where all heaven and earth are watching you. Fight like a knight, so that I can reward you. Do not be unduly fearful, because you are not alone." (Diary, 1760)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)

"I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

Hannelore

This priest has indeed been here for nearly 20 years. Other priests have come and gone, but this one has remained.
My Lord and my God.

andy

Quote from: Bonaventure on September 12, 2023, 09:05:57 AM
Quote from: andy on September 12, 2023, 08:37:17 AMIf you are so convinced it is all a joke not a Mass, now you must go to the diocese and report it. Under the pain of mortal sin.

No. You cannot make pronouncements that bind under pain of mortal sin.

Why not?

What James says is 10000x more of importance - a claim with 100% probability of an invalid Mass and he gets a pass.

What I say, that he is morally obliged to do something about it.

So who is a coward here?


Michael Wilson

#50
She isn't obliged to report this under pain of any kind of sin; it isn't the laity's role to tell the bishops what to do, or how to do their job. Also, given the events in the Church in the last 60 + years, it would be a case of the hen going to the foxes to report a problem of missing chickens in the hen house.
These guys are not innocent babes in the woods.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Bernadette,
Quote20 years of invalid Communions.  :'(
Since you intended to receive Holy Communion; even if they were not consecrated, you would still be making a spiritual communion, and the graces that come with that.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

james03

#52
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 16, 2023, 07:44:51 AMShe isn't obliged to report this under pain of any kind of sin; it isn't the laity's role to tell the bishops what to do, or how to do their job. Also, given the events in the Church in the last 60 + years, it would be a case of the hen's going to the foxes to report a problem of missing chickens in the hen house.
These guys are not innocent babes in the woods.

For some reason this quote calls to mind Stephen Brady and Roman Catholic Faithful.  He ended up pretty broken after fighting the fags and pedophiles for years when he figured out JPII was the problem.  He lost his son too, I believe, but his final writings about the disgust he had for Rome were poignant. 

edit:  "We were privileged to receive the sage advice of holy priests such as Fr. John Hardon, Fr. Charles Fiore, Fr. Peter Mascari, and the legendary Fr. Malachi Martin," Mr. Brady explained. "Yet, we closed our doors after we became convinced that clerical corruption could not be fought simply on a piecemeal basis on a local level; rather, it became clear that the greater part of the post-conciliar Church had lost the Faith. We urged our supporters to attend the Traditional Mass whenever possible, to recite the daily Rosary, to live the life of grace and to pray very hard for the reform of the Church." (RCF's "goodbye letter"
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Michael Wilson

Mr. Pat Omlor in one of his early newsletters, "INTERDUM" explained that the systematic demolition going on in the Church was not the result of isolated "abuses" (as Conservative Catholics liked to describe these events), but the result of a very coordinated plan put into place by the highest authorities in the Church, with the set purpose of replacing the Catholic faith with a new different set of beliefs; and once one comes to this realization, everything that has happened in the last few years comes into focus perfectly and logically. It was and is the installation of a new and false religion in the place of the Catholic Church, a diabolical plan already announced by the high circles of freemasonry in the 19th C.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Hannelore

My Lord and my God.

Michael Wilson

"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

andy

Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 16, 2023, 07:44:51 AMShe isn't obliged to report this under pain of any kind of sin; it isn't the laity's role to tell the bishops what to do, or how to do their job. Also, given the events in the Church in the last 60 + years, it would be a case of the hen going to the foxes to report a problem of missing chickens in the hen house.
These guys are not innocent babes in the woods.

I did not suggest that she should do that. I was talking about James who is 100% sure that there is a positive sacrilege going on.

Also, you say that we as laity cannot objectively judge that certain actions/in-actions are under pain of sin?

Michael Wilson

Andy,
QuoteI did not suggest that she should do that. I was talking about James who is 100% sure that there is a positive sacrilege going on.
My apologies, I misunderstood your post.

QuoteAlso, you say that we as laity cannot objectively judge that certain actions/in-actions are under pain of sin?
I say that we can and we do so all the time, for example a politician that votes for infanticide.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Christus Rex

Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 11, 2023, 05:02:13 PMAndy,
on the validity of the Consecration by the priest that doesn't believe in the Real Presence; In some sacraments a minimum intention of "doing what the Church does", is all that is necessary for validity such as Baptism; however, in some, the priest needs more than just the minimum intention; such as in Confession, where he must make a judgement on the completeness and sincerity of the penitent, and really intend to absolve him.
In the case of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the priest must really intend to consecrate the matter; it is very doubtful, given this priest's lack on faith in the Real Presence, that he does consecrate with this intention.

The judgment that the priest makes is distinct from the sacramental intention, just as the matter and form are distinct from the intetion. 

What is requied for a valid intention is the same for all the sacraments, namely, the intention to do what the Church does. The requisite intenton only requires that they intend to perform the ritual (or say the requisite words) in a serious (non joking) manner.  If a person intends to baptize, or intents to say Mass, or intents to ordain a priest, that alone suffices, regardless of what he personally believes is concerning the sacrament itself. For example, the Holy Office confirmd that a person can explicitly deny that baptism washes away original sin, and even publicly affirm, just before administering the sacrament, that it will have no effect on the soul of the one baptized, that it will not prevent him from having the requisite intention. The Holy Office later said the same reasoning applies to all the sacraments.

The idea that a priest must believe in transubstantiation to offer a valid Mass is one of the errors that originated the Traditional movement after Vatican II.


Mushroom

#59
Hi Bernadette, I recently stopped attending the local NO a few months ago. I attended two SSPX masses during that time and it made me think that their position on not attending the NO was correct. I have struggled with the mass obligation stance for a while but the NO is just so bad for our faith. I recently had a baby and I don't want my kids exposed to that. I don't have a TLM mass nearby, it'll be a 3.5 hr drive to the city for one, and hopefully, my husband can drive us this winter or next year. He's been really busy with our house so it's not possible this year. He's not Catholic so it makes it even harder but i'll do everything i can do teach our kids the faith. I'm a recent convert to the faith by the way and I was looking into Catholicism around 2021.

Half a year ago, I would have thought that not going to mass (including NO) was bad but now, I don't think I can even go to an indult from what I know now. I'm glad we have livestream masses, missals, forums, and information online because it seems like it's going to get worse.