I don't want to go to Mass anymore

Started by Hannelore, September 10, 2023, 05:51:39 PM

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Hannelore

Every week, I force myself to go, and lately every week it's my old priest offering the Mass, who told me that the Eucharist wasn't literally the Body and Blood of Christ. According to him, it's a Sacramental sign. Probably got this from Karl Rahner or John Wesley. Every time I see him, I remember it and it makes me angry all over again. I've forgiven grave sins against me personally, but I can't get over this. I have no access to another church. I shouldn't have to go to Mass that's offered by a priest with a defective understanding of the Eucharist, who's trying to pass it off as Church teaching. Knowing what I know, it's difficult for me to see him offer Mass. What exactly is he consecrating? What sacrifice is being offered here? I have to make acts of faith throughout the whole thing, but it feels like a sham.
My Lord and my God.

james03

This supper service is not Mass as objectively this "priest" is not trying to do what the Church intends, that is, transubstantiate bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.  It remains bread and wine.  He has told you this by his own words.

You don't have to attend in my opinion as this is not a Catholic Mass.  Try to find a Trad Mass.  If not, try to watch a live stream one on Sunday.  Perhaps other posters can provide you a Youtube channel  And maybe take a vacation when you can and travel to a Traditional Chapel.

And no matter what, don't receive this invalid sacrament.

"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

andy

Quote from: james03 on September 10, 2023, 06:29:29 PMAnd no matter what, don't receive this invalid sacrament.


With all due respect, you do not have neither an authority not competency to make a such statement. All we can say that there is a positive doubt, and indeed we should stay away from such places.

andy

Quote from: Bernadette on September 10, 2023, 05:51:39 PMI've forgiven grave sins against me personally
Forgiveness is one thing but I wonder if he actually repented those


Quote from: Bernadette on September 10, 2023, 05:51:39 PMWhat exactly is he consecrating? What sacrifice is being offered here?

Somebody asked me to go together to the last First Saturday Mass, Adoration and Meditation. At a NO parish. I know the priest working there for almost 20 years, he is a good guy, but since I moved to Tradition, I go to that church only if there is a funeral or similar.

And right before the Adoration ... the priest ... said, that our faith makes God present in Blessed Sacrament. Expressis verbis. I instantly froze. Not that I was surprised, he is modernism huger for long time, but still it was something out of line even for him.

I did contact him next day, explained calmly the actual Church teaching and he thanked me for that. There is always a hope.


james03

QuoteWith all due respect, you do not have neither an authority not competency to make a such statement.

And what do I need, a Masters in Theology? a PhD? to have the competency to comprehend this:

Quotethe Eucharist wasn't literally the Body and Blood of Christ.

Am I to assume he intends to Transubstantiate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ when he states he does not?

"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Baylee

Quote from: andy on September 10, 2023, 08:01:37 PM
Quote from: james03 on September 10, 2023, 06:29:29 PMAnd no matter what, don't receive this invalid sacrament.


With all due respect, you do not have neither an authority not competency to make a such statement. All we can say that there is a positive doubt, and indeed we should stay away from such places.

The end result is the same. However, given this is a NO priest, chances are there is enough positive doubt about his ordination.  So, his intention to consecrate the bread doesn't even have to play into things.

Hannelore

Quote from: andy on September 10, 2023, 08:14:03 PM
Quote from: Bernadette on September 10, 2023, 05:51:39 PMI've forgiven grave sins against me personally
Forgiveness is one thing but I wonder if he actually repented those
No, not sins against me by the priest. By other people.
My Lord and my God.

Bonaventure

It is not good for you spiritually or psychologically to continue to attend this.

Bonaventure


josh987654321

#9
Quote from: Bernadette on September 10, 2023, 05:51:39 PMwho told me that the Eucharist wasn't literally the Body and Blood of Christ. According to him, it's a Sacramental sign.


You could always send him the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

Quote from: Catechism of the Catholic Church1374. "The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique.  It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as 'the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.' [St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 73, 3c.] In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist 'the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.' [Council of Trent (1551): DS 1651.] 'This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.' [Paul VI, MF 39.]"

Source - https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P41.HTM

Quote from: Matthew 18:15-1715 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Thus, you have the source, you can bring it to him, and if he still refuses to listen, you could bring it to the attention of the Bishop IMO.

Remember too the Miracle of Lanciano - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano

Quote from: Miracle of Lanciano - Wikipediathe monk had doubts about the Catholic doctrine of the real presence. During the Mass, when he said the Words of Consecration ("This is my body. This is my blood"), the priest saw the bread change into living flesh and, the wine change into blood which coagulated into five globules, of different shapes and sizes.

This tells me that it may still be valid even if the Priest doubts or denies it as long as the words of consecration etc the 'formula' is unchanged, nevertheless, it's dangerous grounds, because obviously we cannot see or taste the 'Accidents' of Transubstantiation thus we rely on faith unless there is a Eucharistic Miracle that occurs.

So it'll be up to you where exactly you draw the line in the sand, nevertheless, here are the resources needed to try and win back a Priest if at all possible, in the worst case scenario, many times throughout history faithful Catholics have been without the Sacraments for prolonged periods of time, in which case the Holy Rosary has seen them through sometimes only having access to the Sacraments once a year. 

Eventually IMO they are going to try and do away with the Real Presence (words of consecration and thus formula is changed), but until such time, I can go for the Real Presence alone, making the best of the available options until I can no more.

Our Lady of Victory, Ark of the New Covenant, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for us.

God Bless
"I will not delude you with prospects of peace and consolations; on the contrary, prepare for great battles. Know that you are now on a great stage where all heaven and earth are watching you. Fight like a knight, so that I can reward you. Do not be unduly fearful, because you are not alone." (Diary, 1760)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)

"I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

maryslittlegarden

Quote from: james03 on September 10, 2023, 06:29:29 PMYou don't have to attend in my opinion as this is not a Catholic Mass.  Try to find a Trad Mass.  If not, try to watch a live stream one on Sunday.  Perhaps other posters can provide you a Youtube channel  And maybe take a vacation when you can and travel to a Traditional Chapel.

https://www.institute-christ-king.org/videostream

https://fssp.com/


For a Child is born to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace

andy

Quote from: james03 on September 11, 2023, 05:41:35 AM
QuoteWith all due respect, you do not have neither an authority not competency to make a such statement.

And what do I need, a Masters in Theology? a PhD? to have the competency to comprehend this:

Quotethe Eucharist wasn't literally the Body and Blood of Christ.

Am I to assume he intends to Transubstantiate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ when he states he does not?


From what I understand the actual faith is not needed as long as a priest has an intention of doing what the Church does. Same for an atheist conferring a sacrament of baptism in case of emergency.

This is quite different from a situation when that priest would publicly claim that Church is wrong. Then he would be a formal heretic. Church has tribunals who judge such cases though.






drummerboy

Quote from: Bonaventure on September 11, 2023, 07:31:38 AMValidity here isn't the issue.

Awhile back the Remnant had an interview with Bishop Schneider that touched on this very subject.  Bishop Schneider stated a Catholic is obligated by the Commandment to keep Sunday holy, while this is typically done by attending Mass, we are under no obligation to attend a Mass riddled with abuses and heresy.  And if this Mass is causing you spiritual distress and scandal on part of the priest, I would say who have an obligation to avoid it.  Do keep in mind your Easter duty, try to get to Mass and Confession when you can, watch a livestream, and bear your cross as how God wishes to sanctify you at this time.  And pray for that priest, he will have to answer to God for his heresy and scandal....
"My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy Spirit.  Holy Trinity, glory to You." 
"All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God; guard me under your protection."

josh987654321

#13
Quote from: james03 on September 10, 2023, 06:29:29 PMIf not, try to watch a live stream one on Sunday.

I really dislike this, I remember they tried to do this during the lockdowns thus saying it was no big deal, the only use is for the homily and imagery, that's it, when it comes to the Sacraments it's useless, after all, I can't 'see' the Real Presence, I can't be in Christ's Real Presence nor receive it, at the end of the day it's just an image and audio feed, those are the only two senses available.

Making a video call and speaking in person are very different too. How much more so with the Real Presence which cannot be seen or heard? (unless in the case of a Eucharistic Miracle) Thus, I'll never do a 'livestream' or 'recorded' Mass, which IMO is a form of deception to compare it to a real Mass, useful for a homily, otherwise it's not a substitute IMO.

God Bless
"I will not delude you with prospects of peace and consolations; on the contrary, prepare for great battles. Know that you are now on a great stage where all heaven and earth are watching you. Fight like a knight, so that I can reward you. Do not be unduly fearful, because you are not alone." (Diary, 1760)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)

"I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

Bonaventure

#14
Quote from: josh987654321 on September 11, 2023, 09:13:22 AM
Quote from: james03 on September 10, 2023, 06:29:29 PMIf not, try to watch a live stream one on Sunday.

I really dislike this, I remember they tried to do this during the lockdowns thus saying it was no big deal, the only use is for the homily and imagery, that's it, when it comes to the Sacraments it's useless, after all, I can't 'see' the Real Presence, I can't be in Christ's Real Presence nor receive it, at the end of the day it's just an image and audio feed, those are the only two senses available.

Making a video call and speaking in person are very different too. How much more so with the Real Presence which cannot be seen or heard? (unless in the case of a Eucharistic Miracle) Thus, I'll never do a 'livestream' or 'recorded' Mass, which IMO is a form of deception to compare it to a real Mass, useful for a homily, otherwise it's not a substitute IMO.

God Bless

It is not a form of deception.

In the 40s and 50s, those in remote areas, hospice, etc had to avail themselves of Mass broadcast over the radio. Then, came film and television. There is a famous black and white Mass narrated by Monsignor Fulton Sheen on YouTube.

These have never "compared" to assisting at a Mass, but have simply been tools for the faithful when they are unable to attend a Catholic rite to worship Almighty God, or there are none available.


When I lived in rural Mexico, I remember the enormous consolation I received when EWTN broadcast a solemn high Mass.

The OP finds herself in a situation where her local Mass/parish/priest is spewing heresy and nonsense and, rather than nourishing her Faith, is harming her faith.

It is no different than were she to find herself in England under Elizabeth I, or in a German principality that decided to align with Luther.

The local shepherd gives his children stones rather than bread.

Ultimately, this is an issue between the OP, her confessor, and God. All of us will provide our own take based on our own circumstances.

I am a married man responsible for my wife and my son.

When traveling, I am past the point of going to any local NO and "toughing out" any bullshit.

I'm done with that. I will have to answer before the Judgment Seat.

I will only attend a TLM, or an Ad Orientem NO, without any bullshit.

If these aren't available, we won't attend. We will stay home. Others disagree. For example, they will "suffer through" an awful Novus Ordo because "it's valid," or scruples regarding "Sunday obligations." My take on validity is, even Black Masses are valid, EO is valid, some Anglican or even Lutheran services may be valid. The obligation is to attend a Catholic rite.

We can argue this til the cows come home but good Catholics will come to different conclusions. 

As Bishop Williamson famously said, do whatever you need to nourish your faith.