Why isn't Marxism Judeo-Christian?

[james03]

So let's look at the elements of marxism.  The canon fodder are atheists, people who necessarily can not believe there is purpose in life and that final cause can't exist.  So they are attracted to a substitute religion which gives them purpose.  Here is a picture of a godless heathen that has come to represent purposefuless atheists sucked into communism:



These are the foot soldiers who will mindlessly commit violent acts.  These are the instruments that will drown the world in blood.  They are important for the revolution to create the earthly paradise because he who controls the streets controls the town.

The psychology of atheistic communists can be one of or a combination of these three: insecurity, inadequacy, or envy.  I theorize that the inadequate are the most dangerous and the ones most capable of committing atrocities based on analyzing the "Bike Lock Professor" attack in Berkeley.

The genesis of marxism comes from Tikkun Olam, the belief that jews are responsible for repairing the kelim and creating paradise.  Anti-commie jews consider it a heresy of Tikkun Olam.  It is also tied in with Messianic beliefs, however a belief completely opposite of the Christian belief.  The Messiah to the jews will create a material paradise for the jews on Earth.  He will lead the jews in conquering the world.  Afterwards there will be an earthly paradise where the goyim (cattle) will serve the jews.  The goyim will be better off as there will be no more war or crime, and they will be fed nutritious bugs and have a pod to stay in, so they won't be homeless.  The bugs and pods are a later addition popularized by Klaus Shwab, a jew.

As I said if you are interested in the jewish roots of marxism, read the book by a former communist jew: Politics of Bad Faith.  Who am I to believe, you, or a former communist who was important as an intellectual during the 60's?

I doubt you will read the book, so here's a video.  Skip to 1 hour, 16 minutes.  He is an anti-communist rabbi in Jerusalem.  Be on the look out for when he says, "He was right" because that is when your jaw will drop open and hit the floor.  You only need to watch a few minutes.  Who am I to believe, you, or an anti-communist rabbi?

[Aethel]

Good morning James,

For your first post and the second half of your second post, I think the naming of "Judeo-Christian" is besides the point, because my point in using that label is not to say the West has Talmudic Jewish roots; that point is irrelevant, to my argument. I use it because I'm aware of the point that many view Marx strictly as a Jewish product (such as yourself); however, both Judaism and Christianity as religions have a shared messianic eschatological structure and moral system, which both systems share with Marxism.

We can leave Jews out of it and strictly ask: Did Christianity produce Marxism, first of all, and second of all, did Christianity allow Marxism to thrive; both points are worth noting given the shared eschatological structure, anthropology, moral system, and means of propagating itself.


But I dispute that irrelevant point:
Christianity did start off as a Jewish sect. Maybe not Talmudic (in fact, I'm of the opinion that Christianity probably derived from the Jewish Essenes whereas Talmudic Judaism derived from the Pharisees), but nevertheless still Jewish. The Old Testament tells the story of Israel, God's chosen people, with the Church being the New Israel, and the Christians being the New Jews. And of course, whether non-Jews should be able to join Christianity was a huge matter of contention with the Apostles, just look at Paul's disputes with Peter regarding circumcision.

Up until Constantine, no Roman Emperor worshipped Yahweh, before Christianity's spread the Romans viewed Yahweh as a local Jewish deity that the Romans tried to identify with their gods, some trying Saturn, Zeus, or Dionysius (in fact one of the reasons Christianity was so successful was because of the similarity in name between "Iovis" or Jupiter and "Yahweh").


As to the first half of your second post, most of it is ad-hominem and irrelevant to my point of Marxism's connection to Jewish-Christian values. Even if the Marxists are insane transsexual clowns, that still doesn't mean that Marxism isn't a product of Christianity.

[Aethel]

The bugs and pods are a later addition popularized by Klaus Shwab, a jew.

Also, Klaus Schwab is not Jewish.

[james03]

however, both Judaism and Christianity as religions have a shared messianic eschatological structure and moral system, which both systems share with Marxism.

Well, throw in the Shia, as they have their Messiah who will climb out of a well.  The inability to make distinctions is not sophistication.  The jewish Messiah will create an earthly paradise.  This is even captured in the Bible when the Apostles, before they had received the Holy Ghost, ask Jesus when He will restore the earthly kingdom.

[6] They therefore who were come together, asked him, saying: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

But this is the opposite of Christian teaching:

Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence. [37] Pilate therefore said to him: Art thou a king then? Jesus answered: Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice.

So your assertion that marxism comes from a shared Messianic belief is shown to be false, as the beliefs are in opposition. 

As far as moral system, do Christians believe that jews today are the chosen race and that a jew is permitted to abuse the goyim as they are only cattle to serve the jew?

Did Christianity produce Marxism, first of all,

No, according to jewish scholars, one a former communist intellectual, it is a heresy of Tikkun Olam.

and second of all, did Christianity allow Marxism to thrive;

No, it recognized that communism was its mortal enemy and has fought it for centuries.  I've quoted Pope Pius XI.  Vietnam until 1963 was a Catholic thing.  The Cristeros, Vendee, and San Fedisti are noted examples.  Throw in the Polish Solidarity movement.  What allowed marxism to thrive was the Former West's atheism.  People with no purpose who must believe that their short material life is all they have.  So they were ready dupes for the marxist intellectuals.  We call it atheistic communism for a reason, so I am not using ad hominems.  You just refuse to accept the truth of what I say.  Out of necessity an atheist must believe all he has is his short life.  Fertile soil for growing communist canon fodder.

Christianity did start off as a Jewish sect. Maybe not Talmudic (in fact, I'm of the opinion that Christianity probably derived from the Jewish Essenes

You've stepped over the line as a guest.  It absolutely was not derived from the Essenes.  Where do the Essenes say that the Old Covenant is void?  That some of the disciples LEFT the Essene  sect is reasonable, but a foundation of Christianity is the belief that the jews made void the Old Covenant and that Christ came to institute the New Covenant.  That would be anathema to an Essene.

[Aethel]

Well, throw in the Shia, as they have their Messiah who will climb out of a well.  The inability to make distinctions is not sophistication.

Marxism originated in England and Germany and spread via Russia, countries in which Islamic influence is nonexistence or limited.

The jewish Messiah will create an earthly paradise.  This is even captured in the Bible when the Apostles, before they had received the Holy Ghost, ask Jesus when He will restore the earthly kingdom.

[6] They therefore who were come together, asked him, saying: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

But this is the opposite of Christian teaching:

Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence. [37] Pilate therefore said to him: Art thou a king then? Jesus answered: Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice.

So your assertion that marxism comes from a shared Messianic belief is shown to be false, as the beliefs are in opposition. 

But the idea of an earthly paradise has been floating around among Christians since the first few centuries of Christianity, precisely because of Jewish conceptions of an earthly paradise. And those conceptions still float around Protestant circles today.

Come on now. So much of Paul's writings were apologetics justifying Jesus as the Messiah by the standards of Jewish Messianic prophecy; how Christ was king, prophet, and high priest; how Christ redeemed us from our sins; how the Old Testament foretells Christ; and so on.

Even if Christianity makes the paradise in spiritual terms, that still leaves us with the rest of Marxist parallels to Christian eschatological structure. Indeed, one can recast all of Christianity in materialist, secular terms.

As far as moral system, do Christians believe that jews today are the chosen race and that a jew is permitted to abuse the goyim as they are only cattle to serve the jew?

Spiritual gentiles, yes. Remember, God's the Creator, so He can do with His creation what He sees fit and can command his creation how He ought to be worshipped, and within those rights he damns those outside the Ark of Salvation, who are Spiritual Gentiles, reprobates, idolaters, etc. whom belong to the conspiracy of the devil and his fallen angels to damn the human race. Error has no rights, so the Church has the moral obligation to suppress ideas / philosophies / religions that are from the Father of Lies; spiritually gentile ideas.



Not dissimilar, by the way, to Marxists who believe that everyone hostile to their ideology are doing it from a place of Bourgeois / the oppressive power structure (demonic) ethics to oppress the worker.

Which is my point: one can draw a number of uncanny philosophical parallels, structurally, between Marxism and Christianity.

No, it recognized that communism was its mortal enemy and has fought it for centuries.  I've quoted Pope Pius XI.  Vietnam until 1963 was a Catholic thing.  The Cristeros, Vendee, and San Fedisti are noted examples.  Throw in the Polish Solidarity movement.  What allowed marxism to thrive was the Former West's atheism.  People with no purpose who must believe that their short material life is all they have.  So they were ready dupes for the marxist intellectuals.  We call it atheistic communism for a reason, so I am not using ad hominems.  You just refuse to accept the truth of what I say.  Out of necessity an atheist must believe all he has is his short life.  Fertile soil for growing communist canon fodder.

Sure, and this goes to my point that maybe this speculation is totally unwarranted; say we lived in a world where Roman paganism reigned supreme or something like Mithraism, Manichaeism, the Gnostics, or the Orphics became the supreme religion: gradually, we would go through a similar period of industrialization and scientific knowledge that would cause these systems to be recast in secular terms but with the teleological structures in tact in a way that isn't compatible with human nature, creating something just as self-destructive.

But I still think there's something shared structurally between Marxism and Christianity

It absolutely was not derived from the Essenes.

I never said the Essenes were synonymous with Christianity. I said it's a derivative (that is, it spun off of it). I think that Christianity used the Essene interpretation of Judaism as it's "Old Covenant" building block, with Christ and subsequent Pauline theology reinterpreting that and creating something different.

Jesus wasn't affiliated with the Pharisees, nor was he affiliated with the Sadducees, nor was he affiliated with the Zealots... which leaves...

Not to mention Saint John the Baptist's lifestyle was very much in line with the Essene praxis.

[james03]

But the idea of an earthly paradise has been floating around among Christians since the first few centuries of Christianity, precisely because of Jewish conceptions of an earthly paradise. And those conceptions still float around Protestant circles today.

You're just pulling crap out of your butt and flinging it at this point.  Did you at least watch the section of the video I posted?  Do you disagree with this jewish rabbi?  If you disagree with him, what are your points of contention.

The idea that various beliefs worked out more than a millennium before marx penned his demonic writings created communism, or even inspired it is absurd.

The idea that Prosperity Gospel Christians, who are all about private property, hatched communism is equally absurd.

[james03]

11. With reason, then, the common opinion of mankind, little affected by the few dissentients who have contended for the opposite view, has found in the careful study of nature, and in the laws of nature, the foundations of the division of property, and the practice of all ages has consecrated the principle of private ownership, as being pre-eminently in conformity with human nature, and as conducing in the most unmistakable manner to the peace and tranquillity of human existence. The same principle is confirmed and enforced by the civil laws-laws which, so long as they are just, derive from the law of nature their binding force. The authority of the divine law adds its sanction, forbidding us in severest terms even to covet that which is another's: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife; nor his house, nor his field, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his."

I've been addressing the utopian savor of jewish bolshevism.  But even in its economic theory, its fundamental belief to eliminate private property is in opposition to the Catholic Faith, as Pope Leo stipulated.

[Aethel]

But the idea of an earthly paradise has been floating around among Christians since the first few centuries of Christianity, precisely because of Jewish conceptions of an earthly paradise. And those conceptions still float around Protestant circles today.

You're just pulling crap out of your butt and flinging it at this point.  Did you at least watch the section of the video I posted?  Do you disagree with this jewish rabbi?  If you disagree with him, what are your points of contention.

The idea that various beliefs worked out more than a millennium before marx penned his demonic writings created communism, or even inspired it is absurd.

The idea that Prosperity Gospel Christians, who are all about private property, hatched communism is equally absurd.

I'm not. I'm saying that there's something about the Jewish and Christian messianic apocalyptic structure (the latter which incorporated the former, as an objective historical fact) that lends itself to the idea of some future earthly paradise, even if Catholicism in its totality condemns that perspective. Not only because you find this in Judaism, but you find this in heretical groups in the first millennia and onwards with Protestants today, probably in reference to Judaism and probably because the Church didn't really condemn that perspective until the 5th century or so.

It stands to reason that Marx must have been influenced by the structure of Jewish and Christian apocalyptic thought at least to some degree.

Even if Marxism in its totality is incompatible with Christianity, I still think that it "apes" it, as other people have stated here. But that still means it incorporated the narrative of Christianity / Judaism and secularized, at least compared to other non-Abrahamic religions.

My use of the prosperity gospel was used as a counterpoint to my main perspective, developing what "EastWest7" stated - that is to say, West European ideologues, philosophies, and religions, all tend to, in various degrees, incorporate Biblical ideas completely removed from their theological context.

I chose the Prosperity Gospel because it's the  opposite of Marxism, but it's another ideology / philosophical system that also uses the Bible / Judeo-Christian thought but comes to radically different conclusions.

[james03]

I'm not. I'm saying that there's something about the Jewish and Christian messianic apocalyptic structure (the latter which incorporated the former, as an objective historical fact) that lends itself to the idea of some future earthly paradise, even if Catholicism in its totality condemns that perspective.

Can you distinguish between the terms "incorporated" vs. "corrected"?  Catholics, who were the only Christians, corrected the jewish teaching.  And the removal of the materialistic earthly paradise and the restoration of the kingdom of Israel make Catholic teaching in opposition to marx.

It stands to reason that Marx must have been influenced by the structure of Jewish and Christian apocalyptic thought at least to some degree.

Marx was influenced by the teaching of Tikkun Olam.  If you are truly interested in this topic, read the book from a former communist jewish intellectual.

[Aethel]

Marx was influenced by the teaching of Tikkun Olam.  If you are truly interested in this topic, read the book from a former communist jewish intellectual.

Will do

Can you distinguish between the terms "incorporated" vs. "corrected"?  Catholics, who were the only Christians, corrected the jewish teaching.  And the removal of the materialistic earthly paradise and the restoration of the kingdom of Israel make Catholic teaching in opposition to marx.

Sure, incorporated does not care about the soundness of the claim (whether it's true or not). To incorporate means to take something pre-existing and add it / integrate it to something else to make it a part of a whole. The Jewish Messianic prophecy and eschatology pre-dated Christianity, and Christianity incorporated it, regardless if the prophecy is true or not or if it came from God or not.

"Corrected" means you change the soundness of the claim (going from false to true). You can incorporate something and correct it; one example you gave before is Greek Realism in Christianity, something which was false and, according to your claim, incorporated and corrected in Christianity.

[Aethel]

Spiritual gentiles, yes. Remember, God's the Creator, so He can do with His creation what He sees fit and can command his creation how He ought to be worshipped, and within those rights he damns those outside the Ark of Salvation, who are Spiritual Gentiles, reprobates, idolaters, etc. whom belong to the conspiracy of the devil and his fallen angels to damn the human race. Error has no rights, so the Church has the moral obligation to suppress ideas / philosophies / religions that are from the Father of Lies; spiritually gentile ideas.

Also worth remembering Pope Leo XIII's Exorcism Prayer:

Those enemies most crafty and sly have filled with bitterness and sadness the Church, spouse
of the Immaculate Lamb. They have given Her wormwood to drink; they have placed
their impious hands over everything that for Her is most dear. Where the Seat of Saint
Peter and the Cathedral of the Truth has been erected to be a light for the gentiles (goyim), they
have erected the throne of domination of impiety betting that with luck, having struck
down the pastor, they can disperse their congregation. Oh invincible champion, help
God's people against the perversity of the spirits that attack them and give them the victory!

Pope Leo XIII identifies the Church explicitly with God's Chosen People of the Old Testament and identifies those outside the Church as Goyim, even if "Goy" is just a "spiritual mark" and not an ethnic mark.

[james03]

Bull crap, you inserted the term "goy".  The translation I have from the internet is:

In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of Truth has been set up as the light of the world,

We'd have to have the original Latin to see if the better translation is "world" or "gentiles", but it really doesn't matter.  Because the jews use "gentile" for the non-jewish nations, where as "goy" is a derogatory term:

On the house of the Goy one looks as on the fold of cattle.

vs.

For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it.

And this beauty:

Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.

When the Pope discovered the existence of the Babylonian Talmud he had it burned wherever found.

[james03]

The Jewish Messianic prophecy and eschatology pre-dated Christianity, and Christianity incorporated it, regardless if the prophecy is true or not or if it came from God or not.

The jewish messianic prophecy predicts a war leader who will rise up and subjugate the entire world to Israel in material terms, which the Apostles reflect when they ask Jesus if now was the time to reestablish the Kingdom of Isreal, already quoted.  This prophesy was rejected by the Catholic Church.

[Aethel]

In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of Truth has been set up as the light of the world,

We'd have to have the original Latin to see if the better translation is "world" or "gentiles", but it really doesn't matter.  Because the jews use "gentile" for the non-jewish nations, where as "goy" is a derogatory term:

I did insert it, hence the parentheses. But "goyim" is literally just the Hebrew word for "nations" or "Gentiles". Even if it's used as a slur, it still literally means "Gentiles"

My point is that the concept exists in Catholicism, but it's "spiritual" and not "ethnic"

[james03]

Your reasoning boils down to this:

"Marxists breath air, Catholics breath air, therefore Marxism is derived from Catholics."

You have to diametrically opposed views of the Messiah.  Marx had to choose one.  Considering his is a materialist  view, it is evident he chose the jewish view.