Why would God permit such horrible lives and permit them after death.

[Julio]

The Catholic truth is that the world was not created to be inherently fallen. It was the misuse of freewill that created fallen nature of men. It was only after Eve succumbed to the temptation of Satan and Adam failing to perform his leadership and obedience to God's law that the humans committed the original sin. As Fr. Chad Ripperger puts it, Adam was given millions of Dollars and he squandered it.

So in the Catholic perspective, it is an error in the first place to consider that God created a fallen nature of humans but it was the inability to comply to His laws and inappropriate use of freewill that put mankind in fallen status. This is the reason there is the Immaculate Conception and the incarnation of the Son of God just to put human souls in line with God.

All material things are good, but for obvious reason one cannot take them all. It is the human greed among other fallen characteristics that was the offshoot of that original sin that makes the people suffer. Like, a man can have only one woman but many would have amorous relations with other woman or even fellow man despite the marital tie with his wife. The society however do not want to consider that as a form of disorder but a cool and regular affair of a modern person, which the modern thinking, and I want to call it diabolic, is "cosmopolitan."

Fr. Chad Ripperger is right in discussing detachments from any of the creation other than God even in the Catholic Church that He created. "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides."

[Michael Wilson]

1. I question Christianity in isolation compared to other religions, because of the inherent tension between the material and the immaterial, the latter seemingly only understood through the material,

We are creatures composed of a material body and spiritual soul; our souls united to our body, depend on our sense faculties for information and to form our concepts. But we extract from the material impressions spiritual ideas. There is no tension, but rather this is for us a totally natural process. 

2. I question God in total in all religious systems (Greek, Hindu, or Christian alike) which seem to use the material as a carrot and a stick to get people to do good things, but the material is filled with such horrors, abuse, and unfairness that I wonder if there can even really be "The Good" when "The Good" is only understood by the material, but the material itself has pits of hell that far exceed the imagination of any Renaissance poet. I personally don't believe the good people are capable of doing outweighs the evil they are capable of doing.

1. People naturally think and realize that there is more to man and his life than filling his material needs. Man who once he has filled his basic necessities, naturally asks himself:"Can this be all that there is to life?". The inability and futility of material goods to satisfy us intellectually and spiritually, spurs us to seek for higher and more fulfilling goods.   
2.God helps us along this path (of seeking happiness & fulfillment), by giving us the innate sense of right and wrong; that gives us peace when we do good and disturbs our peace when we don't i.e. our conscience.
3.When we see evil that is around us, it tells us that not all our actions and those of others are on the same moral plane, as would be the case if we were only thinking brutes. We realize that there is a higher law that men either conform to,or do not; and the former, we find praise worthy and the latter, we condemn. This law does not come from men, but is innate in them, put there by God.
4.Men therefore may not all act according to their conscience, but they admire those who are virtuous, and are repelled by those who are not. There might not be a perfect balance between the two groups, but men want to belong to the virtuous or held to be such, and not be identified with the wicked.
5. Men are called to live in a higher more perfect and spiritual life than just fulfilling their material needs. This life is not only the cause of our happiness now, but obtains for us eternal happiness in Heaven.     

[Aethel]

1. I question Christianity in isolation compared to other religions, because of the inherent tension between the material and the immaterial, the latter seemingly only understood through the material,

We are creatures composed of a material body and spiritual soul; our souls united to our body, depend on our sense faculties for information and to form our concepts. But we extract from the material impressions spiritual ideas. There is no tension, but rather this is for us a totally natural process. 

2. I question God in total in all religious systems (Greek, Hindu, or Christian alike) which seem to use the material as a carrot and a stick to get people to do good things, but the material is filled with such horrors, abuse, and unfairness that I wonder if there can even really be "The Good" when "The Good" is only understood by the material, but the material itself has pits of hell that far exceed the imagination of any Renaissance poet. I personally don't believe the good people are capable of doing outweighs the evil they are capable of doing.

1. People naturally think and realize that there is more to man and his life than filling his material needs. Man who once he has filled his basic necessities, naturally asks himself:"Can this be all that there is to life?". The inability and futility of material goods to satisfy us intellectually and spiritually, spurs us to seek for higher and more fulfilling goods.   
2.God helps us along this path (of seeking happiness & fulfillment), by giving us the innate sense of right and wrong; that gives us peace when we do good and disturbs our peace when we don't i.e. our conscience.
3.When we see evil that is around us, it tells us that not all our actions and those of others are on the same moral plane, as would be the case if we were only thinking brutes. We realize that there is a higher law that men either conform to,or do not; and the former, we find praise worthy and the latter, we condemn. This law does not come from men, but is innate in them, put there by God.
4.Men therefore may not all act according to their conscience, but they admire those who are virtuous, and are repelled by those who are not. There might not be a perfect balance between the two groups, but men want to belong to the virtuous or held to be such, and not be identified with the wicked.
5. Men are called to live in a higher more perfect and spiritual life than just fulfilling their material needs. This life is not only the cause of our happiness now, but obtains for us eternal happiness in Heaven.     

Great answer, I appreciate this and will ponder it.

[Mr. Mysterious]

Jesus addressed this issue in John's Gospel, specifically Chapter 9 when he healed a man born blind.

[1] And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: [2] And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? [3] Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. [4] I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. [5] As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

[Aethel]

Jesus addressed this issue in John's Gospel, specifically Chapter 9 when he healed a man born blind.

[1] And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: [2] And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? [3] Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. [4] I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. [5] As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

If life is simply a stage for God's entertainment, to give people a flicker of life so they can play some role - either the main actor or the self-deprecating, embarrassing comic relief - in the grand choreography, only for the sun to set and all of it to disappear into abyss, I guess my inquiry is how is it just that we're given these roles without our consent?

Does anybody really want to be the outcasted unlikeable jerk that the good guy must conquer? Does anybody want to be the primary source of pity? Does anybody really want to be the self-deprecating insecure person who exists solely to make the hero look good by comparison?

Did we have an option? No - God just created us, and it is what it is. And it seems God creates people less "sinful" (in terms of missing the mark) than others. And then we are expected to be appreciative of it, and if we aren't, there's divine wrath. Not that it matters that much, because anything we do will be paradoxically done according to God'a Will - even in questioning our roles we perform our roles.

You could try some New Agey Hindu mumbo jumbo about "we all secretly chose our roles by our decisions / our choices in the past life", quote "The Matrix" and say "you aren't here to make a choice, you are here to figure out why you made the choice", and ad-hoc give us nonfalsifiable moral guilt to those who were cursed with a more lowly state of being - but again, why?

It just seems pointless.

[james03]

Does anybody really want to be the outcasted unlikeable jerk that the good guy must conquer? Does anybody want to be the primary source of pity? Does anybody really want to be the self-deprecating insecure person who exists solely to make the hero look good by comparison?

Why all this easy stuff?  How about having to watch your wife die?

Did we have an option? No - God just created us, and it is what it is.

Thank you.  You are getting it.

And then we are expected to be appreciative of it, and if we aren't, there's divine wrath.

Wrong.  Paraphrasing Job:

Cursed was the day I was born, and may the light of the sun have never risen on that day ... and in saying these things Job did not sin .... Only My servant Job has spoken rightly.

But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and coming to the first, he said: Son, go work today in my vineyard. [29] And he answering, said: I will not. But afterwards, being moved with repentance, he went. [30] And coming to the other, he said in like manner. And he answering, said: I go, Sir; and he went not.

[31] Which of the two did the father's will? They say to him: The first.

You are making excuses.  There is one important question: Are the arguments of First Cause and Necessary Being true, established from necessity? .

Without God, without I Am, existence is absurd.

[Aethel]

Without God, without I Am, existence is absurd.

I personally think sometimes even with God, existence is absurd. Nobody escapes the cross, but some simply taste vinegar, others are whipped almost to death and are forced to carry a tree a mile.

Are the arguments of First Cause and Necessary Being true, established from necessity?

None of this proves God is perfectly benevolent.
Isaiah 45:7

For me, if God is benevolent, it would have to be a benevolence that is beyond "good" and "evil" altogether.

[crossingtherubicon]

Ill switch gears a bit, as this is an age old topic.

But I do believe God knew who would love him above all other things before time and animation but after creation.

And the rest is simply to
1.  Weed out those who would not love him.
2.  Optimize those who would.
3.  All for the Glory of God and the Kingdom of Heaven.

I personally think the plan was brilliant.

Oh and all will be leveled out in purgatory, not to worry, your worst enemy will be your best friend in the Kingdom of Heaven, and perfect justice will be administered before we enter.

[Michael Wilson]

If life is simply a stage for God's entertainment, to give people a flicker of life so they can play some role - either the main actor or the self-deprecating, embarrassing comic relief - in the grand choreography, only for the sun to set and all of it to disappear into abyss, I guess my inquiry is how is it just that we're given these roles without our consent?

If this is all there is to human existence i.e. The here and now, with no reward, punishment or something greater, then this life is but a black comedy.

Does anybody really want to be the outcasted unlikeable jerk that the good guy must conquer? Does anybody want to be the primary source of pity? Does anybody really want to be the self-deprecating insecure person who exists solely to make the hero look good by comparison?

To ask the question, is also to give the answer.

Did we have an option? No - God just created us, and it is what it is. And it seems God creates people less "sinful" (in terms of missing the mark) than others. And then we are expected to be appreciative of it, and if we aren't, there's divine wrath. Not that it matters that much, because anything we do will be paradoxically done according to God'a Will - even in questioning our roles we perform our roles.

This would be true if God was as you conceive Him; If he was the God of Calvin, pre-ordaining our fate with no recourse or possible input from us, like a giant puppeteer pulling the strings on his puppets and we the puppets dancing to the pulls.
But God truly loves us and even died on the Cross for the love of us. "Greater love than this hath no man that a man lay down his life for his friends"; He created us with a free will,and gives us all the grace that we need to make our lives meaningful and productive for our eternal salvation. He gave all of us the capacity to love Him and to love our neighbor: "For he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law" 

You could try some New Agey Hindu mumbo jumbo about "we all secretly chose our roles by our decisions / our choices in the past life", quote "The Matrix" and say "you aren't here to make a choice, you are here to figure out why you made the choice", and ad-hoc give us nonfalsifiable moral guilt to those who were cursed with a more lowly state of being - but again, why?

There is no "past life" and the N.A.M.J. Doesn't work. We don't "secretly" chose anything; we as intelligent creatures, endowed with reason and free will, make conscious decisions, which have consequences. When the consequences are not positive, we can either own up to our fault or we can have recourse to passing the buck, as our first parents did in the Garden of Eden; and that didn't go down so well; but once we take responsibility for our sins, and humble ourselves asking God to forgive us and to grant us His pardon and grace, then we can climb back up on our feet, take up the Cross that God has given us to carry, for the good of our souls and our temporal and eternal happiness, and by this means save our souls.
So why don't you get down on your knees, humble yourself before your creator and redeemer and ask for pardon for your sins and the grace to become the saint that He intends you to become?

[Michael Wilson]

Isiah 45.7; "[7] I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: "
Commentary: [7] "Create evil": The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin.
God as a good parent sends us trials and tribulations in this life, so that we do not continue to live in the state of sin, and lose our souls.

For me, if God is benevolent, it would have to be a benevolence that is beyond "good" and "evil" altogether.

He is benevolent, but He doesn't cater to our whims and disordered passions. He gives us those things which are the most conducive to our eternal salvation. If my parents had not disciplined me and instead catered to my every demand, I would be a tormented, insuperable, egotistical jerk or worse. Thank God, that they did put up boundaries and limits to my demands, and instead insisted on me conforming to their standards of behavior. I am even now in my latter years, very very grateful to them. 

[crossingtherubicon]

Assume nothing about what people will look in Heaven.  The ugliest one on Earth could be the 3rd loveliest in Heaven.  The shortest could be the tallest.  The blind could have the best eyesite.  And the one who suffered the most for Christ could have the 3rd biggest castle.  You will not have any questions or gripes once you get there, per the gospels.  It will all make perfect logical sense.  And to look upon disordered behavior with envy, is disordered. 

[james03]

I personally think sometimes even with God, existence is absurd.

The Trad movement is nothing but a statement that the church of Vatican II is absurd.

For that matter, look at Ayn Rand.  She saw that the Former West had abandoned the philosophy of the Catholic Church, and then used that to accurately predict what would happen to the Former West, which has come to past.  Her big problem was that she was an atheist and therefore just a hitch hiker on Catholic thought.  Greek Realism doesn't work without First Cause and the Necessary Being.

[Julio]

If life is simply a stage for God's entertainment, to give people a flicker of life so they can play some role - either the main actor or the self-deprecating, embarrassing comic relief - in the grand choreography, only for the sun to set and all of it to disappear into abyss, I guess my inquiry is how is it just that we're given these roles without our consent?

Does anybody really want to be the outcasted unlikeable jerk that the good guy must conquer? Does anybody want to be the primary source of pity? Does anybody really want to be the self-deprecating insecure person who exists solely to make the hero look good by comparison?

Did we have an option? No - God just created us, and it is what it is. And it seems God creates people less "sinful" (in terms of missing the mark) than others. And then we are expected to be appreciative of it, and if we aren't, there's divine wrath. Not that it matters that much, because anything we do will be paradoxically done according to God'a Will - even in questioning our roles we perform our roles.

You could try some New Agey Hindu mumbo jumbo about "we all secretly chose our roles by our decisions / our choices in the past life", quote "The Matrix" and say "you aren't here to make a choice, you are here to figure out why you made the choice", and ad-hoc give us nonfalsifiable moral guilt to those who were cursed with a more lowly state of being - but again, why?

It just seems pointless.

Oh, what made you think that your consent is so important to God. Yeah, pride is such a demonic feeling.