Why would God permit such horrible lives and permit them after death.

Aethel · January 11, 2023, 05:30:04 PM

One of the things that I don't understand, for an omnibenevolent deity, is that he allows people to live lives that are disgraceful and embarassing, usually completely determined by circumstances outside of one's control.

One has horrible, anti-social parents. One is born incredibly ugly. One is born incredibly stupid. One is born with a deformity. One is born as a hermaphrodite. One is born with autism.

Those things just happen, and then you are doomed to live a life of sadness, regret, embarrassment, and develop anti-social and pathological behaviors (which usually harm those around you) unless you learn to accept your lot in life and loneliness.

"You have free will to overcome your sins and seek salvation after death"

So what? You struggle to become "normal" or "average" which you attain at some point or not, and then the big guy up above judges you for who you are.

Imagine having to go to Heaven being you, but your inherent flaws is inscribed onto the very being of who you are to such a degree that your total existence is an embarassment.

If I was someone of that state (I sort of am in my own ways), can't imagine sharing Heaven with other people who got to live fulfilling lives but then get to get purified for their mild hedonism (Jesus, I'm sorry I hooked up with that girl in college, but it was fun), while others are born with horrible, wretched, loathsome lives that aren't repairable.

What kind of God wouldn't just allow those people a request - to just sleep. To not exist. To say "I suffered enough for you God, I made it to the end and died, now blot me out. If I can't be blotted out, leave me alone".

Something like the Hindu or Buddhist systems make a lot more intuitive sense to me, theologically speaking, where there is no equilibrium, there is no fairness, and some people are given everything while others have to suffer the worst things. While I find their anthropology more in touch with what human beings are socially, it's also non-falsifiable and flawed - you could say that ascribing moral guilt to unknowable past actions is also just a coping mechanism (how can one have guilt without really knowing explicitly what they are guilty of) and their system creates a tendency to legitimize abusive hierarchies by virtue of predetermined moral superiority - but their system seems more rational. Maybe you deep down know what those past actions were because they are who you are today.

Michael Wilson · January 11, 2023, 06:07:08 PM

Man's life here on Earth is but a passing moment; we are here to obtain eternity. Despite outwardly unfavorable circumstances, such as lack of intelligence, a good physical appearance, wealth, good home, etc. etc. God has care over each and every one of us, and sends us all the graces and all the other helps that we need to attain to salvation. We have Our Lord's very word on it: The flowers in the field He clothes with greater splendor than Solomon in his most regal attire; no single bird of the air falls into the fowler's net without His permission; even the very hairs on our head are numbered. He provides each of us with a Guardian Angel, that watches over us, prays for us and seeks to guide us to Heaven.
How many people given all of the natural advantages you could imagine, end up in Hell? How many with none end up in Heaven? Our Lord gave us the parable of the beggar Lazarus, as a lesson and a warning.
The lives of Saints such as Germaine the Shepherdess and St. Margaret of Costello are examples of individuals that were born either in unfavorable family circumstances or terrible deformity; and they became saints.
St. Margaret of Costello https://www.nashvilledominican.org/community/our-dominican-heritage/our-saints-and-blesseds/bl-margaret-castello/
St. Germaine
https://livingchurch.org/2020/08/19/st-germaine-de-pibrac-the-suffering-shepherdess/

james03 · January 11, 2023, 08:46:44 PM

This is the problem of believing in what I call "never ending summer block party heaven". Oh look, it's grandpa Joe. I really missed him. And Sparky the Dog! Good ole Sparky.

This is what is taught to children so that they form certain correct opinions. God is good. Heaven is something we strive for. Etc... But it is completely wrong.

Heaven is the Beatific Vision. And this is not a special cope. St. Augustine, writing 1600 years ago:

QuoteFor this contemplation is held forth to us as the end of all actions and the everlasting fullness of joy. ... this it is which we shall contemplate when we shall live in eternity. For so it is said, "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou has sent." ... Then will take place that which is written, "In thy presence is fullness of joy." Nothing more than that joy will be required; because there will be nothing more that can be required.

This is WHY you stop at the scenic look out, and WHAT you are looking at is Beauty, though through a thick veil. This is how all men are ordered. And malice is the rejection of this, who you are. Embracing the lie. And God shows mercy to these also, giving them a place where they may pour out their hatred and screech their curses.

james03 · January 11, 2023, 10:31:05 PM

More St. Augustine, where he goes off (because St. Augustine was undoubtedly a mystic):

QuoteThat after this meaning, then, the Lord said, "Why askest thou Me about good?, there is none good but One, that is, God" is probable upon those proofs which I have alleged, because that sight of God, whereby we shall contemplate the substance of God unchangeable and invisible to human eyes (which is promised to the saints alone; which the Apostle Paul speaks of as "face to face"; of which the Apostle John says, "We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is"; and of which it is said, "One thing have I desired of the Lord, that I may behold the beauty of the Lord", and of which the Lord Himself says, "I will both Love him, and will manifest myself to him"; and on account of which alone we cleanse our hearts by faith, that we may be those "pure in heart who are blessed for they shall see God": and whatever else is spoken of that sight: which whoever turns the eye of love to seek it, may find most copiously scattered throughout scriptures), -- that sight alone, I say, is our chief good, for the attaining of which we are directed to do whatever we do aright.

Written 1600 years ago.

Aethel · January 12, 2023, 06:14:57 AM

My objection to these posts are a few things:

1. Why would God even create such harsh inequalities and randomly give different people such drastically different struggles? It's nice to believe that things even out - but the rich white kid who gets a free trust fund will never experience the suffering of a homeless black man who dies on the street.

2. At some level, we necessarily project our own humanity onto the divine in order to make it comprehensible - in fact, Union with God necessarily means Union with man, for Christ himself is a man. And at a fundamental level, the imagery of heaven involves social organization - the choir of Saints, etc. The Nicene Creed states poignantly "I believe in the communion of Saints", the Catechism states that the Mass is an image of what Heaven is; and finally, if we are to believe in the theology of Sainthood, the Gospel itself is an event whose existence is replayed in Heaven over and over again through the Mass - one could make the argument that so are the lives of the Saints through the Mass. All this means that Heaven involves some level of social organization and a remembrance of the merits of one's own life - but what if someone is born or predestined without merit, or was given a life they really didn't want and couldn't find pride in? What if their very existence is a source of shame that they cannot fix?

If I was born deformed, would I really want to be the patron Saint of deformed people?

3. I still struggle with the Nietzschean objection of promised opposites after death ("oh, don't worry about being rich now, in fact being rich means greediness, look to the future as you'll be rich after death (spiritually or otherwise)" contradictory because wealth is treated contradictory like a bonum in se and malum in se in the same argument) - but even that argument is rendered null when you look at the sheer inequality of life. One can be a spoiled white kid who lives a life of exuberant hedonism with daddy's trust fund, and then at the end of such merriment turn to Jesus so he gets to live it up in Heaven; meanwhile a person with methhead parents lives a horrendous life, and he finally gets to live it up in heaven - how could one say they both carried their cross? How could they two love each other in any real way?

Aethel · January 12, 2023, 06:27:31 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on January 11, 2023, 06:07:08 PMMan's life here on Earth is but a passing moment; we are here to obtain eternity. Despite outwardly unfavorable circumstances, such as lack of intelligence, a good physical appearance, wealth, good home, etc. etc. God has care over each and every one of us, and sends us all the graces and all the other helps that we need to attain to salvation. We have Our Lord's very word on it: The flowers in the field He clothes with greater splendor than Solomon in his most regal attire; no single bird of the air falls into the fowler's net without His permission; even the very hairs on our head are numbered. He provides each of us with a Guardian Angel, that watches over us, prays for us and seeks to guide us to Heaven.
How many people given all of the natural advantages you could imagine, end up in Hell? How many with none end up in Heaven? Our Lord gave us the parable of the beggar Lazarus, as a lesson and a warning.
The lives of Saints such as Germaine the Shepherdess and St. Margaret of Costello are examples of individuals that were born either in unfavorable family circumstances or terrible deformity; and they became saints.
St. Margaret of Costello https://www.nashvilledominican.org/community/our-dominican-heritage/our-saints-and-blesseds/bl-margaret-castello/
St. Germaine
https://livingchurch.org/2020/08/19/st-germaine-de-pibrac-the-suffering-shepherdess/

I read these stories and I'm horrified by human existence and wonder why God would allow such unequal suffering.

AlfredtheGreat · January 12, 2023, 07:04:55 AM

Aethel-

I have no grandiose theological or philosophical answers to your questions. What I do have is practical experience in some of what you mention. With that in mind I can say without doubt that God allows suffering, sometimes extreme hardship, to remedy an area of our life that is not what or where it should be. The difficulty is that we simply don't see it at the time. We're tempted to believe that, if there even is a God, He doesn't hear us. I cannot tell you how many times in my life I have looked back upon episodes that were dark only to see what God was bringing about. My family and I are going through such a hardship now and I can already see the reasons why God is allowing it to happen. It isn't pleasant. It's sometimes confusing. We simply don't see the end from the beginning as God sees it. If I have learned anything so far in life it's that we must always hold onto that assurance that God works all things for good, even if it hurts.

Reader · January 12, 2023, 07:07:39 AM

Quote from: Aethel on January 12, 2023, 06:14:57 AMMy objection to these posts are a few things:

1. Why would God even create such harsh inequalities and randomly give different people such drastically different struggles? It's nice to believe that things even out - but the rich white kid who gets a free trust fund will never experience the suffering of a homeless black man who dies on the street.

2. At some level, we necessarily project our own humanity onto the divine in order to make it comprehensible - in fact, Union with God necessarily means Union with man, for Christ himself is a man. And at a fundamental level, the imagery of heaven involves social organization - the choir of Saints, etc. The Nicene Creed states poignantly "I believe in the communion of Saints", the Catechism states that the Mass is an image of what Heaven is; and finally, if we are to believe in the theology of Sainthood, the Gospel itself is an event whose existence is replayed in Heaven over and over again through the Mass - one could make the argument that so are the lives of the Saints through the Mass. All this means that Heaven involves some level of social organization and a remembrance of the merits of one's own life - but what if someone is born or predestined without merit, or was given a life they really didn't want and couldn't find pride in? What if their very existence is a source of shame that they cannot fix?

If I was born deformed, would I really want to be the patron Saint of deformed people?

3. I still struggle with the Nietzschean objection of promised opposites after death ("oh, don't worry about being rich now, in fact being rich means greediness, look to the future as you'll be rich after death (spiritually or otherwise)" contradictory because wealth is treated contradictory like a bonum in se and malum in se in the same argument) - but even that argument is rendered null when you look at the sheer inequality of life. One can be a spoiled white kid who lives a life of exuberant hedonism with daddy's trust fund, and then at the end of such merriment turn to Jesus so he gets to live it up in Heaven; meanwhile a person with methhead parents lives a horrendous life, and he finally gets to live it up in heaven - how could one say they both carried their cross? How could they two love each other in any real way?

Not definitive answers, just food for thought:

1. Often the result of a lifetime of poor choices. Not God's fault.
2. Do not look for pride. It will lead you to sin.
3. "These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?"

The Curt Jester · January 12, 2023, 09:06:54 AM

Curious... why bring race into the equation? Why not rich black kid and homeless white man?

Aethel · January 12, 2023, 09:31:39 AM

I (temporarily) live in a less than ideal area and recently saw a homeless black man die on the streets, and I work with immature sheltered white kids - who, although they aren't privileged, certainly had a healthier upbringing than what I had.

james03 · January 12, 2023, 09:45:59 AM

QuoteAll this means that Heaven involves some level of social organization and a remembrance of the merits of one's own life - but what if someone is born or predestined without merit, or was given a life they really didn't want and couldn't find pride in? What if their very existence is a source of shame that they cannot fix?

Materialistic thinking. And if that is your basis, then you will come to the conclusions you have come to. However then you are faced with the immaterial world, and I argue spiritual: the perceiving immaterial. The immaterial world, e.g. math, are the source of our wealth. I'd argue it is more important than the material. That's a big problem for you.

For if the immaterial world exists, which it most certainly does, we know that the immaterial has no place or time. And if we are spiritual, which is the only explanation of perception, intentionality, and reflection, then we are immortal. So the time on Earth is inconsequential in that infinity minus 80 years is infinity. So our time on Earth reduces to time used to optimize our eternal existence, outside of time. So if you were born into a crappy life you can still use that life to store up treasure in heaven.

QuoteOne can be a spoiled white kid who lives a life of exuberant hedonism with daddy's trust fund, and then at the end of such merriment turn to Jesus so he gets to live it up in Heaven;

We should hope he does, and we'd celebrate, for I don't want anyone to go to hell (I have a problem with pedos, spare me the test oh Lord). But what are the chances? How many rich kids ruin their lives, which is odd as their fathers can be very accomplished men. If you were forced to bet on whether Hunter Biden will go to heaven (only God is the judge), what would you bet. I hope the coke and whores make up for all eternity being fixed in your rejection of God.

And even if a Hunter Biden has a death bed conversion, he has robbed himself of tremendous treasure in heaven. It is an interesting situation. There's nothing but joy in heaven. However he has missed out on all the merits, each merit adding to his joy. Most like you will not be aware of what you missed out on, but God knows that each merit on Earth will increase your joy in heaven. Every time by Faith you chose to do what is right and eschew the easy way. This comes from Charity.

Aethel · January 12, 2023, 10:53:08 AM

The paradox I see is that Catholic theology cannot help but describe the immaterial by reference to the material (even having to personify God and the angels, even the devils through anthropomorphizing) and referencing material goods to refer to "spiritual goods"

If spiritual treasure is something sought after, as is a spiritual kingdom, as is spiritual rulership, as is a kingdom of jewels and gold (per Revelation), a land of milk and honey (per Paul and the Church Fathers), then those things necessarily must be good, irregardless if they are spiritual or material. So why is the material version bad compared to the identical thing of the spiritual, if the spiritual must reference the material?

We need not to go into the spiritualized sexual sensations one gets into with the ecstasies of the Saints.

james03 · January 12, 2023, 11:11:18 AM

Anthropomorphizing is a rational way to deal with rank-and-file laity. How many have studied theology, let alone mysticism? So you tell the kids that in heaven they'll get to play with Sparky the Dog again. Since the vast majority of the laity don't know about The Form of the Good, how do you then teach them about the Beatific Vision?

But as a Doctor of the Church stated (posted by someone else), any old woman can love God more than a theologian -- an exaggeration to make a point. Having Faith and doing good works is far more important (infinitely so) than studying the Hypostatic union. However theology is necessary for the Church, for apologetics and combatting heresies.

As far as the material world being bad, see my post on "Dichotomy" in the Sacred Science subforum. Arguments from the material world are used as analogy because we have temporal minds and need these analogies to increase our understanding.

awkward customer · January 12, 2023, 11:46:21 AM

Quote from: Aethel on January 11, 2023, 05:30:04 PMOne of the things that I don't understand, for an omnibenevolent deity, is that he allows people to live lives that are disgraceful and embarassing.......

God gave human beings Free Will. If people choose evil, why blame God?

If God didn't allow people to choose evil, He would have to deny what gives humans the ability to choose between good and evil. He would have to deny Free Will.

Then what would be the point of us, if we don't have the ability to freely choose.

I have known some truly malevolent people. They choose evil because they like it. God permits this choice. Do you think He shouldn't. What would happen then?

It's true that some people have horrendous lives at the hands of appallingly wicked people. Is this a reason for rejecting God?

Aethel · January 12, 2023, 12:31:46 PM

Quote from: james03 on January 12, 2023, 11:11:18 AMSince the vast majority of the laity don't know about The Form of the Good, how do you then teach them about the Beatific Vision?

Two questions then:

1. What makes "the Good" good without reference to material things?
2. Do you think the ignorance of the laity is what led to the collapse of the Church?