Why women lose the dating game

[erin is nice]

I most certainly do have feminist sensibilities. It's not an insult!

Feminist, you mean, in the sense of THE popularly-known movement?

If you mean being for equality and against objectification, against oppressive double standards, and against narrow definitions of "femininity"etc, then yes.

If you mean being pro-abortion, no.

[tmw89]

Interesting - how is a Trad to reconcile the (as far as I know) novel concept of the "equality" of the sexes with the traditional understanding of their complementarity?  Or am I reading too far beyond a simple equality in value of life?

...apologies for turning into the Inquisition, but I am genuinely curious as to how one reconciles those concepts.

[erin is nice]

Interesting - how is a Trad to reconcile the (as far as I know) novel concept of the "equality" of the sexes with the traditional understanding of their complementarity?  Or am I reading too far beyond a simple equality in value of life?

...apologies for turning into the Inquisition, but I am genuinely curious as to how one reconciles those concepts.

I think it comes down to one's definition of "trad". I say I'm a trad because I want an end to the Novus Ordo and "indifferentism", and a return to the TLM, to good catechesis, to the Sacraments, to respect for the Blessed Sacrament.

I would not say I ascribe to a traditional view of how society should be, or how men and women should relate to one another.

[OCLittleFlower]

Men are very physical and visual, as a general rule -- so it's no shock to me that they assign numeric values to women based on their looks.  Now, I don't think they should walk up to women and tell them they are a 2 or something, but I don't blame them for thinking it and even using that system when talking to other men.

No one said this was shocking, but to say it is acceptable is wrong.

So you believe that dehumanizing women is natural to men and acceptable behavior?

I don't consider it dehumanizing.  Looks and attraction are huge for men -- they're just being realistic and honest by not hiding it.  Now, maybe they should be a bit less blunt about it in mixed company, sure, but I don't think it's dehumanizing to put a numeric value on it.  By that definition, an IQ test is also dehumanizing.  After all -- we are born with a capacity for intellect, just as we are for beauty.  Some get more, some get less.  *shrug*

[erin is nice]

Men are very physical and visual, as a general rule -- so it's no shock to me that they assign numeric values to women based on their looks.  Now, I don't think they should walk up to women and tell them they are a 2 or something, but I don't blame them for thinking it and even using that system when talking to other men.

No one said this was shocking, but to say it is acceptable is wrong.

So you believe that dehumanizing women is natural to men and acceptable behavior?

I don't consider it dehumanizing.  Looks and attraction are huge for men -- they're just being realistic and honest by not hiding it.  Now, maybe they should be a bit less blunt about it in mixed company, sure, but I don't think it's dehumanizing to put a numeric value on it.  By that definition, an IQ test is also dehumanizing.  After all -- we are born with a capacity for intellect, just as we are for beauty.  Some get more, some get less.  *shrug*

Well, other than you with your self-loathing, most people find it dehumanizing to be thought of as just a number. We hear comments to the effect of "I felt like just a number" in relation to many aspects of life, and it is always negative. When you assign a person a numerical value, you are not keeping in mind that the person is created by God with an immortal soul.

As an aside, just because something is "huge" for men, or commonplace, doesn't mean it's not inappropriate. You of all people should not want men assigning numbers to women.

[Penelope]

I would not say I ascribe to a traditional view of how society should be, or how men and women should relate to one another.

Something I'd like to note here is that I think that the "traditional" American view of how society should be or how men and women should relate to one another is largely rooted in protestantism. Unfortunately, I see a number of trads on the internet buy into some view of the 1950s suburban American housewife and her office-working husband as being the model for an ideal marriage, but it's important to remember that mainstream American culture, at least the parts of it that stem from religion at all, stem from protestantism. We shouldn't really uphold that as an ideal, in my opinion.

[Spooky]

I'm annoyed with ugly people who think they're good looking. It suggests a pathological lack of self-perception.

You're being ironic, right? Because this is the ugliest thing anyone could have written.

#weuglypeopleneedlovetoo

[TerrorDæmonum]

If someone states that she doesn't find a particular attribute attractive, why do you take it as a personal offense?

When I hear things like "I don't like skinny/brunette/etc women" I don't see it as an insult, it's just personal preference.

Yes I find the word fat offensive, unless it's describing a baby. I teach my children not to call people fat, so why would I say it myself?

I most certainly do have feminist sensibilities. It's not an insult!

If you mean being for equality and against objectification, against oppressive double standards, and against narrow definitions of "femininity"etc, then yes.

If you mean being pro-abortion, no.

So, only oppressive double standards, not "feminist double standards"?

I am not going go go through your words I quoted here, but I think it is worth considering.

[OCLittleFlower]

Well, other than you with your self-loathing, most people find it dehumanizing to be thought of as just a number. We hear comments to the effect of "I felt like just a number" in relation to many aspects of life, and it is always negative. When you assign a person a numerical value, you are not keeping in mind that the person is created by God with an immortal soul.

I'm not self-loathing, just realistic.  Often times when people tak about feeling like "just a number," it is when dealing with the government or a large company.  I don't expect the California state DMV to treat me as anything but a number -- in fact, my greatest hope is that they will call my number quickly, get my paperwork processed, and get me back out the door to my real life.   

Often, when men are talking about women in terms of numbers, it's someone they met in passing or even someone they saw without meeting at all.

As an aside, just because something is "huge" for men, or commonplace, doesn't mean it's not inappropriate.

By "huge" I actually meant that it matters a lot to them -- it's a huge priority for them in terms of who they will date and marry.  And I get that -- I had my dealbreakers, too, back when I was single.  I'd rather someone was honest with himself than persue women he isn't really interested in. 

You of all people should not want men assigning numbers to women.

That sure got personal fast.

[erin is nice]

Now that I know who you are, "Paeniteo", I am not going to bother with you.

[TerrorDæmonum]

Now that I know who you are, "Paeniteo", I am not going to bother with you.

I will be cordial with you, but I only see the words you write, so one must be careful to exercise reason and have some attention to correctness.

If one writes error, engages in logical fallacies, or presents a potential scandal to the Faith, I may correct it if I see it.

You make discussions very personal.

"You of all people", "now that I know".

Is this how you wish to be treated? Should I have seen your name, and resolved to interact in a certain way? I cannot do that.

[Greg]

I am sick of the dating scene/game and all that, and I have no problems dating women, if I wanted to, I could probably get a date with a 7 by tonight if I really wanted to because that's the determination and confidence I have, and it's not to sound prideful, it's just that I know how to do it. Most guys are scared little puppies hiding behind a wall of videogames and pornography. But I would much rather give my life to Our Lord Jesus Christ, pray for me a sinner!

Dude, are you seriously referring to women as numbers on a rating scale? Even if you're joking it's not appropriate. Fortunately, it will also make women hate you.

This is a very American male thing.  I've not seen other cultures do it anything like as frequently.  It's a little bit like Gridiron Football or Baseball and the obsession with statistics in sport.  It becomes an accepted part of the culture and the way men talk.  Like Londoners saying "bollocks" and other swear words.

In Britain you might refer to a real beauty as a 10 but I've never heard a man describe his girlfriend to other men as a 7, 8 or 9.

Not that we are not just as obsessed with looks, we are, but the "out of 10" thing is definitely American.

[Greg]

If someone states that she doesn't find a particular attribute attractive, why do you take it as a personal offense?

If a 250 lb woman volunteers to tell me she thinks my beard "looks like shit" without any provocation, I take some offense, if only for the severe breech of social protocol. I do not care to look attractive to anyone, in fact, I would rather not, but I am mindful of the intent of others.

You should reply, in a Churchillian tone, "Madam, tomorrow I may wake clean shaven, if I desire, but you'll still be just as fat"

[TerrorDæmonum]

You should reply, in a Churchillian tone, "Madam, tomorrow I may wake clean shaven, if I desire, but you'll still be just as fat"

I could think of many such things to say, but I had no desire to get into that kind of discussion with her. It was an out of the blue comment.

That was the worst, but I see such tendencies all the time. It is a weird thing.

If people could just acknowledge, "Yes, I live in a particular culture in which people have commonly presented themselves in a certain way for most of my experiences, therefore, I have a bias which is not biologically, culturally, or personally universal.".

I am not looking for any personal relationships, so I am not concerned with being attractive or getting attention, or seeking courtship.

On another such note, I have a distinct hairline, as do many people in my family, and I comb my hair straight back, so it is very visible. A girl I know tried to tease me about going bald, that is a possibility in the future I suppose, but there is no evidence of it now though, and I said my hairline was in fact the same as it always has been, and it is a trait found in many members of my family, and none of my family from the grandparents forward (the only people I've seen) have had any significant hairloss, yet, she persisted, as if she thought I was just in denial, so I dropped it.

People have trouble recognizing what is "their thoughts" and "other people's thoughts". If I went around assuming that people had the same goals, ways of thinking, and desires of me, I would be locked up.

[Greg]

I've never been troubled about what people thought about me.  I have a very thick skin and it has served me well.  I would not be without it.

I went thin on top at 25 and shaved my head (before Bruce Willis made it popular).  Some women didn't find it attractive, so fine, I didn't date them.  Enough women did that I was never short of women to date.  You don't need to win them all.   All any man needs is one decent woman.

Back in the late 1980s I was classmates with a rather ugly Pakistani chap when I was at university.  We would go to pubs and bars occasionally and even uni events he would simply approach random women and talk to them, nothing special, the standing chat-up line stuff.  He was reasonably witty and had some charm but nothing outstanding.   9 out of 10 of them were not in the least interested and made it clear based on first appearances.  He got told to ___ ___ most of the time, because he was definitely below average in the looks department, with a slightly pox marked face and a hooked nose, but he simply did not care.  For him it was like water of a duck's back.  He was always dating different women and they were always rather attractive.

Being shy and sensitive to others opinions holds a lot of people back.  If you can rationaize and internalise not caring about the people who reject you, you'll do better in the dating pool and in many other walks of life.

If I knew at 20 what I know now at 44 ....