NYT notes rise of Trads

[james03]

https://archive.ph/KtQSx

You have to ignore the snippiness of the article.  I imagine that the conversion of "Levy" to the Catholic faith has set them off.  The important point is that even the vile New York Times has recognized that there is a "large" movement inside of Gen Z towards Traditional Catholicism.  Even the "Trad Wife" movement gets a mention.

The bottom line, Trads are winning in the cultural arena and setting a trend.  That's a good thing.  The huge explosion in marriages and baptisms I've been noticing and have  mentioned on this forum is being observed by the secularists as well.

(As an aside, there is something that is hilarious about the Trad Wife movement.  They compete with each other of who can pack the most extravagant lunch for her man and post videos of them making the lunch.  Every guy watching goes, "Darn.".  My wife packed me a good lunch, and occasionally a gumbo or something, but nothing close to this level.  When the ladies are competing with each other of who is most "Trad", you've scored a big win in the cultural war.)

[james03]

I did a quick search and here's one I found.  Darn:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSOiA9gnpB8[/yt]

When you start seeing stuff like this, you know we are scoring in the cultural war.

[Greg]

When the leftist women are awaiting their execution I suggest we leave the lights on in the prison cell and play this "packing lunch for my husband" video 24 by 7.  Far more effective than waterboarding.

If they want to make a final confession we will dim the lights and send for a priest.

[james03]

I can only imagine what the comments are to these videos.  Rhheeee!!!

[Mono no aware]

You have to ignore the snippiness of the article.  I imagine that the conversion of "Levy" to the Catholic faith has set them off.  The important point is that even the vile New York Times has recognized that there is a "large" movement inside of Gen Z towards Traditional Catholicism.

Just a clarification, but the writer, Julia Yost, is a Catholic herself, and this was a "guest opinion" she contributed to the New York Times.  Yost is clearly pleased with the hipster cachet of traditional Catholicism.  Snippiness can be found at Slate: Uh, Can the NYT Please Not Treat Catholic Reactionaries as a Fun Sexy Trend Story?  The Slate piece, even though from the left, has some worth as a dissenting view.

I do wonder about these "transgressive" trends.  It's like the homosexual commentator Douglas Murray in England, who publicly wishes the Anglican Church would abandon its liberalism and return to tradition.  What does he think is going to happen to him if traditional Christianity returns to having its way in the temporal realm?  He should expect to receive the same hard labor as Oscar Wilde endured in Reading Gaol.  Something of the same seems to be going on with these Tara Isabella Burton and Dasha Nekrasova people.  I think they're just in it for the shock value.  They think it's "punk."  But that has already been done.  There was only one Patti Smith, and you can't be a and a traditional Catholic at the same time.

[james03]

I think they're just in it for the shock value.

That just proves my point.  Breitbart said: Politics is downstream of culture.

Whether such and such is legit, or whatever, I don't care.  What I care is that there is now a "main stream" cultural impact caused by Traditional Catholicism in a noticeable sub segment of young adults.

Some people complained because the March for Life had a party element to it.  I said, "Great!".  Let young people look at pink haired freaks and shrieking snowflakes calling for government persecutions against people who were mean on one hand, and on the other hand view young adult Trads smiling and having fun.  I'll take that any day, because We Are In A Culture War.

By the way, since Trads are now the cool crowd, and I know you are a slave to fashion and social trends, it's about time to be washed by Baptismal Waters and confess Christ.

[Mono no aware]

That just proves my point.  Breitbart said: Politics is downstream of culture.

Whether such and such is legit, or whatever, I don't care.  What I care is that there is now a "main stream" cultural impact caused by Traditional Catholicism in a noticeable sub segment of young adults.

Some people complained because the March for Life had a party element to it.  I said, "Great!".  Let young people look at pink haired freaks and shrieking snowflakes calling for government persecutions against people who were mean on one hand, and on the other hand view young adult Trads smiling and having fun.  I'll take that any day, because We Are In A Culture War.

But surely you have to care about some things.  If pink hair is a problem for you, then here is a photo of Julia Yost.



Nothing against this young lady on account of her hair, but if "culture" is in the driver's seat, then not only politics but religion is going to be taken along for the ride.  An increase in numbers might be something to get excited about, but you have to concern yourself with the quality of your converts & reverts, as well as the quantity.  The curse of growth is that it waters things down.  It's the moral of ancient Rome.

By the way, since Trads are now the cool crowd, and I know you are a slave to fashion and social trends, it's about time to be washed by Baptismal Waters and confess Christ.

I was baptized as an infant almost fifty years ago to this day, so that part has already been done.  But for some us of observing things from the outside, traditional Catholicism is ruined by trumpeting whatever transgressive value or hipster quality it might have.  I am not able to read souls, but a lot of this stuff looks like nothing more than the usual swing of the culturo-ideological pendulum.  Where prior generations were liberals on LSD reading the Bhagavad-Gita, the iconoclasts among the present generations might hew conservative, tweedy, and biblical.  It's "OK Boomer" writ religiously.

I hope that I do not appear to be a follower of current trends.  Current trends are abhorrent to me.  I am a dinosaur; I live in the 1960s and 70s.  I am unimpressed by the culture of the present generation, even in this, one of its attempts at being "recherché, retro, & vintage."  It's fine if these kids want to dangle rosaries and chant their Pater Nosters, but anybody can do that, really, and I search in vain among them for a John Lennon, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, or Patti Smith.  In a way, I feel sorry for them.  The previous generation of poets left a scorched earth in their wake.  Rebellion has been done to death, and these poor kids have nothing but the internet.

[Instaurare omnia]

The NYT readership in 2022 will assess trads in a similar mode as the 2016 gawking upon red state MAGA folk: as pitiful yet intriguing freaks. To them, trad wives are comprehensible only as 50 Shades of Grey in a long skirt and veil. I'd be not at all surprised if a few appeared among the Halloween costumes in the NYC annual parade. Note also that NYT a few years back was already running articles on young wealthy newlywed "breeders" buying up all the 5-bedroom apartments in Manhattan. Jared and Ivanka would be the celebrity face of that sort of thing.

Unfortunately, urbane liberals might for a short while even decide to dabble in the esoterica of the TLM for its shock potential, at least among their own circle of friends. Not much different in its gnosticism than the '90s escaping to India for a pricey Ashtanga immersion. (Also not much different, in a more limited LARP mode, from the hipster dudes in the '00s donning Carhartts and trucker hats.) This is the main flaw of attempts to preserve the TLM for its aesthetics alone: The unwavering faith is lacking. 

EDIT: I typed this at the same time as Pon de Replay; looks like we had several of the same thoughts!

[Instaurare omnia]

That just proves my point.  Breitbart said: Politics is downstream of culture.

Whether such and such is legit, or whatever, I don't care.  What I care is that there is now a "main stream" cultural impact caused by Traditional Catholicism in a noticeable sub segment of young adults.

Some people complained because the March for Life had a party element to it.  I said, "Great!".  Let young people look at pink haired freaks and shrieking snowflakes calling for government persecutions against people who were mean on one hand, and on the other hand view young adult Trads smiling and having fun.  I'll take that any day, because We Are In A Culture War.

But surely you have to care about some things.  If pink hair is a problem for you, there here is a photo of Julia Yost.



Nothing against this young lady on account of her hair, but if "culture" is in the driver's seat, then not only politics but religion is going to be taken along for the ride.  An increase in numbers might be something to get excited about, but you have to concern yourself with the quality of your converts & reverts, as well as the quantity.  The curse of growth is that it waters things down.  It's the moral of ancient Rome.

By the way, since Trads are now the cool crowd, and I know you are a slave to fashion and social trends, it's about time to be washed by Baptismal Waters and confess Christ.

I was baptized as an infant almost fifty years ago to this day, so that part has already been done.  But for some us of observing things from the outside, traditional Catholicism is ruined by trumpeting whatever transgressive value or hipster quality it might have.  I am not able to read souls, but a lot of this stuff looks like nothing more than the usual swing of the culturo-ideological pendulum.  Where prior generations were liberals on LSD reading the Bhagavad-Gita, the iconoclasts among the present generations might hew conservative, tweedy, and biblical.  It's "OK Boomer" writ religiously.

I hope that I do not appear to be a follower of current trends.  Current trends are abhorrent to me.  I am a dinosaur; I live in the 1960s and 70s.  I am unimpressed by the culture of the present generation, even in this, one of its attempts at being "recherché, retro, & vintage."  It's fine if these kids want to dangle rosaries and chant their Pater Nosters, but anybody can do that, really, and I search in vain among them for a John Lennon, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, or Patti Smith.  In a way, I feel sorry for them.  The previous generation of poets left a scorched earth in their wake.  Rebellion has been done to death, and these poor kids having nothing but the internet.

Looks to be the sort who's gal pals with Elizabeth Bruenig, Leah Libresco Sargeant, and Dawn Eden Goldstein. Um, no thanks.

[Mono no aware]

Looks to be the sort who's gal pals with Elizabeth Bruenig, Leah Libresco Sargeant, and Dawn Eden Goldstein. Um, no thanks.

"No, thanks" indeed, but I think the growth of traditional Catholicism in its pure form (more or less) is occurring alongside the growth of a warmer and fuzzier alternative.  Liz Bruenig is a bête noire of mine, but I think Catholics such as her, and Ross Douthat, and Matt Fradd are going to be very influential on the popular Catholicism of their generation (millennials and younger).  The impulse toward "cafeteria Catholicism" is very prevalent in that increasing area of the gray scale between Novus Ordo and traditional Catholicism.

[james03]

I hope that I do not appear to be a follower of current trends.  Current trends are abhorrent to me.

I don't know, I always took you to be a hipster.  And as for following trends, looks like you changed the subject line. 

No I don't take you to be a slave to fashion.  I'm just poking at you.

Getting back to an interesting discussion, this part stands out:

An increase in numbers might be something to get excited about, but you have to concern yourself with the quality of your converts & reverts, as well as the quantity.

That's the big trick.  I'd say first you have to protect your core and not compromise on your beliefs (which somewhat ironically is attractive to people living in a dead culture that believes in nothing).  Trad Catholics do a decent job on that.  Second, you have to have Faith in the Eucharist, Confession, and the Mass, and the grace it brings to the converts.  Since you are trapped wallowing in the darkness, you might not understand that.

Put it this way, when the Faith was protected by the Vatican, we went centuries with thriving culture.  England was Merry Old England.  And even recently you had the TLM everywhere, but you still had parish dances, festivals, sports, etc...  The collapse and desolation came during the great stab in the back of Vatican II. 

But my point is not to discuss strategies of the best way to grow the Trad movement.  It is primarily observational, that it is attracting a subset of the Gen Z generation in the cultural sphere, in addition to the religous.  I never would have predicted a "Trad Wife" movement on TikTok.  Second, it is to draw attention to the fact that we are in a cultural war.  I absolutely oppose pandering to become popular, which as I alluded to, would actually have a negative impact.

[james03]

But surely you have to care about some things.

I see my problem.  I have a very clipped communication's style.  I'm mostly interested more with universal themes, and I don't like getting bogged down in details.

So when I say "I don't care if it is legit", I'm talking about my observation of the trend, nothing more.  Whether so-and-so is doing such-and-such is a detail that I don't care about with regards to recognizing that there is a developing movement or trend.  What we do with this information is a different discussion.  As I said I strongly oppose pandering and compromising principles.

I hope that explains it.

[james03]

The NYT readership in 2022 will assess trads in a similar mode as the 2016 gawking upon red state MAGA folk: as pitiful yet intriguing freaks.

Well put.  It's a big weakness due to their little bubbles they inhabit.  MAGA really got started with #GamerGate around 2014 and the Borg didn't see it coming.  However it was a huge sea change and introduced a segment of conservatives to We. Don't. Care.  I'll give you an example of We. Don't. Care.

Suppose a jewish reporter was criticized for some issue.  In the past he would cry "anti-semite!" and conservatives would grovel around explaining how democrats are the real nazis and how they stand with Israel!

During #Gamergate if a jewish reporter tried that tactic, someone would create a meme showing the reporter being stuffed into an oven by a green frog and send it to the reporter.  The guy making the meme might not give a hoot about jews and such, but he did it as part of We. Don't. Care.  It totally blew the mind of the Left when their old strategy of crying Racist!  Anti-semite! failed over and over again.

edit:  DeSantis has tapped into We. Don't. Care. enough to make him very popular.  His comms director is very popular and specializes in trolling the Left.

[Mono no aware]

Put it this way, when the Faith was protected by the Vatican, we went centuries with thriving culture.  England was Merry Old England.  And even recently you had the TLM everywhere, but you still had parish dances, festivals, sports, etc...  The collapse and desolation came during the great stab in the back of Vatican II.

I think we agree on this.  Since Vatican II, there has a been a decentralization of things within Catholic Church.  And in recent decades, there has been an unintended consequence: traditional Catholicism is doing rather well in the marketplace of ideas.  It's proven attractive to millennials and younger who are disinterested in the Novus Ordo model, stylistically and otherwise. 

But alongside traditional Catholicism, there has cropped up a sizable swath of Catholics in this same generation who have traditional Catholic sensibilities & sympathies, but who at the same time want to be less doctrinaire about things.  I could be wrong on this, but I'm doubtful whether Dasha Nekrasova would rather be in a kitchen making sandwiches instead of having a career as a snarky podcaster and filmmaker.  She likes Bp. Barron's "hell might be empty" supposition and is fine with divorce and homosexuals.

What I am noticing is that traditional Catholicism has seeped into the some of the available space between itself and the Novus Ordo.  And that space is becoming "trendy real estate," so to speak.  From within the traditional Catholic sphere, it might look like things are going well.  And you haven't compromised your principles.  But there is now a growing portion of millennial Catholics who have taken some of your stuff à la carte and stitched it into their own scene.  It's the difference between compromising yourself and having someone else co-opt some of your ideas.

[james03]

Valid concerns.  I think this is especially a threat to Diocesan TLMs.  Maybe even places like SJC in Chicago.  Though I'm not convinced.  There's a lot of Grace from the TLM and sacraments.

I don't think there is any concern in your core Trad groups, whether ICKSP, FSSP, SSPX, etc...  If anything they carry an almost Jansenist savor at certain chapels depending on the pastor.  I'm sure some of them view people like myself and Greg as reprobates heading for hell because of our involvement in teen events.

There's also the interesting phenomenon of Gen-X vs. Gen-Z.  Gen-X has an almost entirely defensive stance, and deservedly so.  We were under constant attack just trying to hew out a Trad movement.

I've noticed a more offensive posture with Gen-Z.  I take that as a positive sign -- a sign of growth, though discussions about regulating growth like this are important.  The Seminary is the protector of Tradition.  It starts there.