Respecting Priests

Started by TerrorDæmonum, July 25, 2022, 06:26:58 PM

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TerrorDæmonum

Quote from: Catechism of Pius X
The Sacrament of Holy Orders

6 Q. Is the dignity of the Christian Priesthood a great dignity?
A. The dignity of the Christian Priesthood is great indeed, because of the two-fold power which Jesus Christ has conferred upon it — that over His real body and that over His mystical body, or the Church; and because of the divine mission committed to priests to lead men to eternal life.

7 Q. Is the Catholic Priesthood necessary in the Church?
A. The Catholic Priesthood is necessary in the Church, because without it the faithful would be deprived of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and of the greater part of the sacraments; they would have no one to instruct them in the faith; and they would be as sheep without a shepherd, a prey to wolves; in short, the Church, such as Christ instituted it, would no longer exist.

8 Q. Will the Catholic Priesthood therefore never cease on this earth?
A. In spite of the war that hell wages against it, the Catholic Priesthood will last until the end of time, because Jesus Christ has promised that the powers of hell shall never prevail against His Church.

9 Q. Is it a sin to despise Priests?
A. It is a very grave sin, because the scorn and insults cast on Priests fall upon Jesus Christ Himself, who said to His Apostles: He who despises you, despises Me.

Quote from: Catechism of the Council of Trent
THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS

Dignity of this Sacrament

In the first place, then, the faithful should be shown how great is the dignity and excellence of this Sacrament considered in its highest degree, the priesthood.

Bishops and priests being, as they are, God's interpreters and ambassadors, empowered in His name to teach mankind the divine law and the rules of conduct, and holding, as they do, His place on earth, it is evident that no nobler function than theirs can be imagined. Justly, therefore, are they called not only Angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God.

In all ages, priests have been held in the highest honour; yet the priests of the New Testament far exceed all others. For the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of our Lord and of forgiving sins, which has been conferred on them, not only has nothing equal or like to it on earth, but even surpasses human reason and understanding.

And as our Saviour was sent by His Father, and as the Apostles and disciples were sent into the whole world by Christ our Lord, so priests are daily sent with the same powers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ.

Quote from: 1 Kings 24:1-23
Then David went up from thence, and dwelt in strong holds of Engaddi. And when Saul was returned from following the Philistines, they told him, saying: Behold, David is in the desert of Engaddi. Saul therefore took three thousand chosen men out of all Israel, and went out to seek after David, and his men, even upon the most craggy rocks, which are accessible only to wild goats. And he came to the sheepcotes, which were in his way. And there was a cave, into which Saul went, to ease nature: now David and his men lay hid in the inner part of the cave. And the servants of David said to him: Behold the day, of which the Lord said to thee: I will deliver thy enemy unto thee, that thou mayest do to him as it shall seem good in thy eyes. Then David arose, and secretly cut off the hem of Saul's robe.

After which David's heart struck him, because he had cut off the hem of Saul's robe. And he said to his men: The Lord be merciful unto me, that I may do no such thing to my master the Lord's anointed, as to lay my hand upon him, because he is the Lord's anointed. And David stopped his men with his words, and suffered them not to rise against Saul. But Saul rising up out of the cave, went on his way. And David also rose up after him: and going out of the cave cried after Saul, saying: My lord the king. And Saul looked behind him: and David bowing himself down to the ground, worshipped, And said to Saul: Why dost thou hear the words of men that say David seeketh thy hurt?

Behold this day thy eyes have seen, that the Lord hath delivered thee into my hand, in the cave, and I had a thought to kill thee, but my eye hath spared thee. For I said: I will not put out my hand against my lord, because he is the Lord's anointed. Moreover see and know, O my father, the hem of thy robe in my hand, that when I cut, off the hem of thy robe, I would not put out my hand against thee. Reflect, and see, that there is no evil in my hand, nor iniquity, neither have I sinned against thee: but thou liest in wait for my life, to take it away. The Lord judge between me and thee, and the Lord revenge me of thee: but my hand shall not be upon thee. As also it is said in the old proverb: From the wicked shall wickedness come forth: therefore my hand shall not be upon thee. After whom dost thou come out, O king of Israel?  After whom dost thou pursue? After a dead dog, after a flea.

Be the Lord judge, and judge between me and thee, and see, and judge my cause, and deliver me out of thy hand. And when David had made an end of speaking these words to Saul, Saul said: Is this thy voice, my son David? And Saul lifted up his voice, and wept. And he said to David: Thou art more just than I: for thou hast done good to me, and I have rewarded thee with evil. And thou hast shewn this day what good things thou hast done to me: how the Lord delivered me into thy hand, and thou hast not killed me. For who when he hath found his enemy, will let him go well away? But the Lord reward thee for this good turn, for what thou hast done to me this day.

And now as I know that thou shalt surely be king, and have the kingdom of Israel in thy hand: Swear to me by the Lord, that thou wilt not destroy my seed after me, nor take away my name from the house of my father. [ And David swore to Saul. So Saul went home: and David and his men went up into safer places.

AlNg

Quote from: TerrorDæmonum on July 25, 2022, 06:26:58 PM
Quote from: Catechism of Pius X
The Sacrament of Holy Orders

6 Q. Is the dignity of the Christian Priesthood a great dignity?
A. The dignity of the Christian Priesthood is great indeed, because of the two-fold power which Jesus Christ has conferred upon it — that over His real body and that over His mystical body, or the Church; and because of the divine mission committed to priests to lead men to eternal life.

7 Q. Is the Catholic Priesthood necessary in the Church?
A. The Catholic Priesthood is necessary in the Church, because without it the faithful would be deprived of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and of the greater part of the sacraments; they would have no one to instruct them in the faith; and they would be as sheep without a shepherd, a prey to wolves; in short, the Church, such as Christ instituted it, would no longer exist.

8 Q. Will the Catholic Priesthood therefore never cease on this earth?
A. In spite of the war that hell wages against it, the Catholic Priesthood will last until the end of time, because Jesus Christ has promised that the powers of hell shall never prevail against His Church.

9 Q. Is it a sin to despise Priests?
A. It is a very grave sin, because the scorn and insults cast on Priests fall upon Jesus Christ Himself, who said to His Apostles: He who despises you, despises Me.

Quote from: Catechism of the Council of Trent
THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS

Dignity of this Sacrament

In the first place, then, the faithful should be shown how great is the dignity and excellence of this Sacrament considered in its highest degree, the priesthood.

Bishops and priests being, as they are, God's interpreters and ambassadors, empowered in His name to teach mankind the divine law and the rules of conduct, and holding, as they do, His place on earth, it is evident that no nobler function than theirs can be imagined. Justly, therefore, are they called not only Angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God.

In all ages, priests have been held in the highest honour; yet the priests of the New Testament far exceed all others. For the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of our Lord and of forgiving sins, which has been conferred on them, not only has nothing equal or like to it on earth, but even surpasses human reason and understanding.

And as our Saviour was sent by His Father, and as the Apostles and disciples were sent into the whole world by Christ our Lord, so priests are daily sent with the same powers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ.

Quote from: 1 Kings 24:1-23
Then David went up from thence, and dwelt in strong holds of Engaddi. And when Saul was returned from following the Philistines, they told him, saying: Behold, David is in the desert of Engaddi. Saul therefore took three thousand chosen men out of all Israel, and went out to seek after David, and his men, even upon the most craggy rocks, which are accessible only to wild goats. And he came to the sheepcotes, which were in his way. And there was a cave, into which Saul went, to ease nature: now David and his men lay hid in the inner part of the cave. And the servants of David said to him: Behold the day, of which the Lord said to thee: I will deliver thy enemy unto thee, that thou mayest do to him as it shall seem good in thy eyes. Then David arose, and secretly cut off the hem of Saul's robe.

After which David's heart struck him, because he had cut off the hem of Saul's robe. And he said to his men: The Lord be merciful unto me, that I may do no such thing to my master the Lord's anointed, as to lay my hand upon him, because he is the Lord's anointed. And David stopped his men with his words, and suffered them not to rise against Saul. But Saul rising up out of the cave, went on his way. And David also rose up after him: and going out of the cave cried after Saul, saying: My lord the king. And Saul looked behind him: and David bowing himself down to the ground, worshipped, And said to Saul: Why dost thou hear the words of men that say David seeketh thy hurt?

Behold this day thy eyes have seen, that the Lord hath delivered thee into my hand, in the cave, and I had a thought to kill thee, but my eye hath spared thee. For I said: I will not put out my hand against my lord, because he is the Lord's anointed. Moreover see and know, O my father, the hem of thy robe in my hand, that when I cut, off the hem of thy robe, I would not put out my hand against thee. Reflect, and see, that there is no evil in my hand, nor iniquity, neither have I sinned against thee: but thou liest in wait for my life, to take it away. The Lord judge between me and thee, and the Lord revenge me of thee: but my hand shall not be upon thee. As also it is said in the old proverb: From the wicked shall wickedness come forth: therefore my hand shall not be upon thee. After whom dost thou come out, O king of Israel?  After whom dost thou pursue? After a dead dog, after a flea.

Be the Lord judge, and judge between me and thee, and see, and judge my cause, and deliver me out of thy hand. And when David had made an end of speaking these words to Saul, Saul said: Is this thy voice, my son David? And Saul lifted up his voice, and wept. And he said to David: Thou art more just than I: for thou hast done good to me, and I have rewarded thee with evil. And thou hast shewn this day what good things thou hast done to me: how the Lord delivered me into thy hand, and thou hast not killed me. For who when he hath found his enemy, will let him go well away? But the Lord reward thee for this good turn, for what thou hast done to me this day.

And now as I know that thou shalt surely be king, and have the kingdom of Israel in thy hand: Swear to me by the Lord, that thou wilt not destroy my seed after me, nor take away my name from the house of my father. [ And David swore to Saul. So Saul went home: and David and his men went up into safer places.
There is a problem because there are posters who have said that the present rite of ordination is invalid which would imply that those ordained under the new rite are not priests at all, only laymen. How do you know whether or not these posters, the Dimond Brothers, and the Traditio blog are all wrong and that Pope Francis is still the Pope and not an imposter Pope as some of the posters here claim?

Julio

I object to certain pronouncements of Pope Francis. But I know that he is still the Pope being the holder of the sit of St. Peter. I shall take it as such until I die for that will be the time that I must know if my thinking is right. In the history of the Catholic Church, this is not the first time that the question on the validity of the Papacy and the propriety of leadership has been an issue. Yet, the Catholicism still exists.

"Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied." Matthew (5:6)

In this age of confusion and vagueness in our belief system and unfortunately it emanates from the Catholic leadership, we desire for righteousness. Nevertheless, we are not called to despise or even rebel against the Pope and the rest of the clergy. This is a test by God in our time. God bless us all.

Miriam_M

Quote from: Julio on July 27, 2022, 11:46:35 PM
I object to certain pronouncements of Pope Francis. But I know that he is still the Pope being the holder of the sit of St. Peter. I shall take it as such until I die for that will be the time that I must know if my thinking is right. In the history of the Catholic Church, this is not the first time that the question on the validity of the Papacy and the propriety of leadership has been an issue. Yet, the Catholicism still exists.

The very reason that I have not adopted the SV position, although I understand it and understand why some Catholics hold that view, is that I could be wrong (as could they).  I know only which utterances and writings correspond to the unbroken deposit of faith and which do not.  My responsibility, per my Baptism and Confirmation, is to believe what corresponds to unwavering Catholic truth.  My responsibility does not consist in analyzing and "deciding" from the position of my relatively puny intellect what only God Himself knows without error. 

And if I did "decide" in supposed certitude that PF is not a true or the true Pope, that conclusion would have zero effect, plus or minus, on my Catholic duty to know the faith, live the faith, and partake of the best-available sacraments I can find.  Thus, my responsibility to do all that cannot be excused because of poor catechesis, which I did not suffer, and the supposed need to regard the Vicar of Christ as my personal catechist, which he is not -- for anybody, by the way; that is not the role of a pope. 

I do not believe that any layman or laywoman has any authority or insight to know that a man's ordination is invalid, as long as the rite used is approved and not unique.  That is not incompatible with realizing that some rites (like some Masses) are more efficacious than other rites and Masses, objectively.  Fr. Ripperger talks about this quite a bit -- for example, the absence of key exorcism prayers in newer sacramental rites, blessings, etc.  There is gray area between "invalid" (= false) and unsurpassed.

When I was confined to NOM's -- including some that were led by literally a psychotic priest with Border Personality Disorder -- I had no choice, if I wanted to receive sanctifying grace, but to prepare my soul with deep prayer.  The actual graces led me to that receptivity -- divine action to allow me to transcend the personality of a disturbed individual entrenched in sodomy and to benefit directly from the divine abundance.  God help us if grace is dependent on fallen human beings dragging us down to the gutter of sin and diabolical perversion with them.  Grace was present in those hosts, but only because I prayed for and was granted the proper disposition.  It wasn't the pathetic priest who himself distributed the grace; he was merely the weak minister mediating grace outside of himself.

I know for a fact through PM's sent to me on this forum that I am hardly alone in seeking and receiving graces to avoid or cope with disappointment in some N.O. environments (and some priests).  Some on this forum have done so heroically, and God has rewarded them for it.

Julio


Greg

By their fruits you shall know them.

If there is no doubt then there is no benefit of the doubt.

You don't treat a wolf in sheep's clothing as though it is a sheep.

So Fr. Wishy Washy who says the new mass but still turns up at anti-abortion protests then yes, I would respect him as a priest.

Fr. Faggoty who has a rainbow banner in the Church during Pride month then no way.  To respect such a man is cringing obsequiousness.  Such a man is an abomination.

Am I capable of judging?  Absolutely.  I give the benefit of the doubt when it is not obvious.
"The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge: he shall wash his hands in the blood of the wicked."[Psalms 57:11]

Baylee

Quote from: AlNg on July 25, 2022, 07:53:47 PM
Quote from: TerrorDæmonum on July 25, 2022, 06:26:58 PM
Quote from: Catechism of Pius X
The Sacrament of Holy Orders

6 Q. Is the dignity of the Christian Priesthood a great dignity?
A. The dignity of the Christian Priesthood is great indeed, because of the two-fold power which Jesus Christ has conferred upon it — that over His real body and that over His mystical body, or the Church; and because of the divine mission committed to priests to lead men to eternal life.

7 Q. Is the Catholic Priesthood necessary in the Church?
A. The Catholic Priesthood is necessary in the Church, because without it the faithful would be deprived of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and of the greater part of the sacraments; they would have no one to instruct them in the faith; and they would be as sheep without a shepherd, a prey to wolves; in short, the Church, such as Christ instituted it, would no longer exist.

8 Q. Will the Catholic Priesthood therefore never cease on this earth?
A. In spite of the war that hell wages against it, the Catholic Priesthood will last until the end of time, because Jesus Christ has promised that the powers of hell shall never prevail against His Church.

9 Q. Is it a sin to despise Priests?
A. It is a very grave sin, because the scorn and insults cast on Priests fall upon Jesus Christ Himself, who said to His Apostles: He who despises you, despises Me.

Quote from: Catechism of the Council of Trent
THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS

Dignity of this Sacrament

In the first place, then, the faithful should be shown how great is the dignity and excellence of this Sacrament considered in its highest degree, the priesthood.

Bishops and priests being, as they are, God's interpreters and ambassadors, empowered in His name to teach mankind the divine law and the rules of conduct, and holding, as they do, His place on earth, it is evident that no nobler function than theirs can be imagined. Justly, therefore, are they called not only Angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God.

In all ages, priests have been held in the highest honour; yet the priests of the New Testament far exceed all others. For the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of our Lord and of forgiving sins, which has been conferred on them, not only has nothing equal or like to it on earth, but even surpasses human reason and understanding.

And as our Saviour was sent by His Father, and as the Apostles and disciples were sent into the whole world by Christ our Lord, so priests are daily sent with the same powers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ.

Quote from: 1 Kings 24:1-23
Then David went up from thence, and dwelt in strong holds of Engaddi. And when Saul was returned from following the Philistines, they told him, saying: Behold, David is in the desert of Engaddi. Saul therefore took three thousand chosen men out of all Israel, and went out to seek after David, and his men, even upon the most craggy rocks, which are accessible only to wild goats. And he came to the sheepcotes, which were in his way. And there was a cave, into which Saul went, to ease nature: now David and his men lay hid in the inner part of the cave. And the servants of David said to him: Behold the day, of which the Lord said to thee: I will deliver thy enemy unto thee, that thou mayest do to him as it shall seem good in thy eyes. Then David arose, and secretly cut off the hem of Saul's robe.

After which David's heart struck him, because he had cut off the hem of Saul's robe. And he said to his men: The Lord be merciful unto me, that I may do no such thing to my master the Lord's anointed, as to lay my hand upon him, because he is the Lord's anointed. And David stopped his men with his words, and suffered them not to rise against Saul. But Saul rising up out of the cave, went on his way. And David also rose up after him: and going out of the cave cried after Saul, saying: My lord the king. And Saul looked behind him: and David bowing himself down to the ground, worshipped, And said to Saul: Why dost thou hear the words of men that say David seeketh thy hurt?

Behold this day thy eyes have seen, that the Lord hath delivered thee into my hand, in the cave, and I had a thought to kill thee, but my eye hath spared thee. For I said: I will not put out my hand against my lord, because he is the Lord's anointed. Moreover see and know, O my father, the hem of thy robe in my hand, that when I cut, off the hem of thy robe, I would not put out my hand against thee. Reflect, and see, that there is no evil in my hand, nor iniquity, neither have I sinned against thee: but thou liest in wait for my life, to take it away. The Lord judge between me and thee, and the Lord revenge me of thee: but my hand shall not be upon thee. As also it is said in the old proverb: From the wicked shall wickedness come forth: therefore my hand shall not be upon thee. After whom dost thou come out, O king of Israel?  After whom dost thou pursue? After a dead dog, after a flea.

Be the Lord judge, and judge between me and thee, and see, and judge my cause, and deliver me out of thy hand. And when David had made an end of speaking these words to Saul, Saul said: Is this thy voice, my son David? And Saul lifted up his voice, and wept. And he said to David: Thou art more just than I: for thou hast done good to me, and I have rewarded thee with evil. And thou hast shewn this day what good things thou hast done to me: how the Lord delivered me into thy hand, and thou hast not killed me. For who when he hath found his enemy, will let him go well away? But the Lord reward thee for this good turn, for what thou hast done to me this day.

And now as I know that thou shalt surely be king, and have the kingdom of Israel in thy hand: Swear to me by the Lord, that thou wilt not destroy my seed after me, nor take away my name from the house of my father. [ And David swore to Saul. So Saul went home: and David and his men went up into safer places.
There is a problem because there are posters who have said that the present rite of ordination is invalid which would imply that those ordained under the new rite are not priests at all, only laymen. How do you know whether or not these posters, the Dimond Brothers, and the Traditio blog are all wrong and that Pope Francis is still the Pope and not an imposter Pope as some of the posters here claim?

I think most who question the validity of the new rite of ordinations have more of a problem with the new rite of episcopal consecration.  Without true bishops, there are no true priests. Even those who say the new rites are valid still consecrate their bishops in the old rite, like the SSPX ...at least for now anyway.

This is Fr Cekada's, RIP, examination of the new episcopal rite:

http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf

And his updated response to the SSPX:

http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf

At the very least, there is enough positive doubt to run a truck through it.  Which is why I will only go to certainly true priests ordained in the old rite by bishops consecrated in the old rite.

Despite that, I will try to be respectful of all priests or religious ...even those who do not identify as Catholic.  But that doesn't mean I have to believe they are real priests.

Jmartyr

"For now", as if the SSPX would eventually change their ordinations from old to new. Not going to happen.
"If anyone is excommunicated it is not I, but the excommunicators." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
" A false church cannot have a true mission." - St. Francis De Sales

Baylee

Quote from: Jmartyr on July 29, 2022, 07:24:52 AM
"For now", as if the SSPX would eventually change their ordinations from old to new. Not going to happen.

Time will tell won't it?  Meanwhile, we know for a fact that there are already many priests who came over from the Novus Ordo who were ordained in the new rite..and the SSPX never conditionally ordained them in the old rite.  It's just a matter of time before the SSPX has bishops from the NO who were consecrated in the new rite ordaining new "priests".  If they are so sure the new rite is valid, that shouldn't be a problem, right?

Jmartyr

Quote from: Baylee on July 29, 2022, 10:31:04 AM
Quote from: Jmartyr on July 29, 2022, 07:24:52 AM
"For now", as if the SSPX would eventually change their ordinations from old to new. Not going to happen.

Time will tell won't it?  Meanwhile, we know for a fact that there are already many priests who came over from the Novus Ordo who were ordained in the new rite..and the SSPX never conditionally ordained them in the old rite.  It's just a matter of time before the SSPX has bishops from the NO who were consecrated in the new rite ordaining new "priests".  If they are so sure the new rite is valid, that shouldn't be a problem, right?
Personally, if my SSPX was ordained in the new rite, I would definitely have some serious misgivings. There are, I believe, some priests that are conditionally ordained and a small number that are not. The majority are ordained with the old rite.
"If anyone is excommunicated it is not I, but the excommunicators." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
" A false church cannot have a true mission." - St. Francis De Sales