Just War

Started by TerrorDæmonum, July 20, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

AlNg

Quote from: TerrorDæmonum on July 22, 2022, 04:56:13 PM

What if is a matter of speculation which is not edifying.
The issue itself is a matter of speculation. For example, was the Vietnam War a just war or not?

TerrorDæmonum

Quote from: AlNg on July 23, 2022, 09:25:20 AM
The issue itself is a matter of speculation. For example, was the Vietnam War a just war or not?

The issue at hand is the teaching of Just War and its implications for us. Again, do not fail to distinguish universals and singulars. This is not a discussion on individual wars and applying the universal principles. If you wish to discuss the specifics of particular wars in light of these principles, create a new thread for it where appropriate.

AlNg

Quote from: TerrorDæmonum on July 23, 2022, 10:11:55 AM
Quote from: AlNg on July 23, 2022, 09:25:20 AM
The issue itself is a matter of speculation. For example, was the Vietnam War a just war or not?

The issue at hand is the teaching of Just War and its implications for us. Again, do not fail to distinguish universals and singulars. This is not a discussion on individual wars and applying the universal principles. If you wish to discuss the specifics of particular wars in light of these principles, create a new thread for it where appropriate.
I think if your theory is of any use, you should be able to illustrate the general principle by specific examples.

TerrorDæmonum

Quote from: AlNg on July 23, 2022, 03:08:35 PM
I think if your theory is of any use, you should be able to illustrate the general principle by specific examples.

It is not my theory and you should not treat this as my personal opinion. It is a traditional teaching of the Church, most clearly expressed by esteemed theologians in the Medieval period based on rigorous understanding of doctrine and revelation.

A hypothetical answer is possible, but the war in question was very complex and we cannot use mere appearance based on limited personal knowledge to make any judgement in particular. The war, and the various countries which ended up involved in it in some way, is complex. The start of it is in 1955, as military action started by the Viet Cong, which had no authority to declare a war for any reason, so they failed the first requirement.

So the Vietnam War was unjust: it was a revolution of people within the nation against the lawful government, a violation of the Fourth and Fifth Commandment.

Now, this is not what we think of when discussing this war in English speaking nations, but that is actually the start of the war: the belligerents were internal to the nation.

Does this illustrate the theory well? There are three requirements and they have to be met by the belligerent simultaneously for a war to be just. The belligerents in this particular war did not meet the first one from the start, therefore, the war could not be just. Their cause and intentions were evil too, but we do not need to even consider that in evaluating this.

AlNg

Quote from: TerrorDæmonum on July 23, 2022, 04:03:57 PM
the war in question was very complex and we cannot use mere appearance based on limited personal knowledge to make any judgement in particular.
Most wars are complex and as such there are people on both sides with some saying the war was just, and others saying the war was unjust. This is evidence that whether or not a war is just is a prudential decision. This is also shown by the fact that proponents of the just war theory on this board are reluctant to discuss particular given examples.

TerrorDæmonum

#20
Quote from: AlNg on July 23, 2022, 10:37:27 PM
This is also shown by the fact that proponents of the just war theory on this board are reluctant to discuss particular given examples.

Such discussions could devolve into political debates and that would be contrary to the purpose of this board.

Did my statement about the Vietnam War not suffice as a specific example though? Make new threads for new topics.

Proponents of the Just War teaching are called Catholics. Those who reject it are putting themselves in serious jeopardy.

AlNg

Quote from: TerrorDæmonum on July 23, 2022, 10:52:26 PM
Make new threads for new topics.

Suppose the discussion is about a general principle.
In such a case,  i don't consider examples illustrating general principles to be a different topic.

Paul_D

Quote from: AlNg on July 25, 2022, 03:34:30 PM
Quote from: TerrorDæmonum on July 23, 2022, 10:52:26 PM
Make new threads for new topics.

Suppose the discussion is about a general principle.
In such a case,  i don't consider examples illustrating general principles to be a different topic.

What about God's commands to the Israelites to war on and exterminate certain peoples in the Old Testament? If you dare to call that unjust, then I will consider you no longer Catholic! Or the Crusades to stop Muslim from invading Christian lands or retaking Christian lands? Outside of certain excesses and actions against morality, I consider all of these things just wars.

AlNg

Quote from: Paul_D on July 25, 2022, 05:00:23 PM
....I will consider you no longer Catholic!
Are you repeating yourself?  I thought that you already said that I wasn't a Catholic or that my thinking was not Catholic.
Anyway, with regard to whether or not a "war" today can be a just war, there are questions that I would have about waging a war today:
1. All other ways of resolving the problem should have been tried first.
2. The peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.
I personally recommend every effort be made to resolve the problem by diplomacy instead of war. Looking at condition 2, I would have a doubt that with modern weaponry and modern means of fighting wars which are available to both sides, whether or not the end result after the war has been waged would be better than not fighting the war in the first place. Modern wars have the capability to cause too much damage and destruction and it is difficult to avoid the injuring and killing of innocent civilians or bystanders.

Paul_D

Quote from: AlNg on July 25, 2022, 05:36:13 PM
Quote from: Paul_D on July 25, 2022, 05:00:23 PM
....I will consider you no longer Catholic!
Are you repeating yourself?  I thought that you already said that I wasn't a Catholic or that my thinking was not Catholic.
Anyway, with regard to whether or not a "war" today can be a just war, there are questions that I would have about waging a war today:
1. All other ways of resolving the problem should have been tried first.
2. The peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.
I personally recommend every effort be made to resolve the problem by diplomacy instead of war. Looking at condition 2, I would have a doubt that with modern weaponry and modern means of fighting wars which are available to both sides, whether or not the end result after the war has been waged would be better than not fighting the war in the first place. Modern wars have the capability to cause too much damage and destruction and it is difficult to avoid the injuring and killing of innocent civilians or bystanders.

No, I'm not repeating myself. I still consider Vatican II Catholics to be Catholics as long as they believe the same doctrines. But if they contradict them, then they're not Catholic! And anyway again, you're doing the same thing, the pot calling the kettle black! You're confusing applicability with the doctrine itself!

AlNg

Quote from: Paul_D on July 25, 2022, 05:44:27 PM
I still consider Vatican II Catholics to be Catholics as long as they believe the same doctrines

OK, but there are 1500 Catholic scholars and priests who have questions about the present Pope:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/quick-reads/letter-signed-more-1500-accuses-pope-francis-canonical-derelict-heresy