Women and Trousers: The Final Word

Started by TerrorDæmonum, December 28, 2021, 12:58:44 AM

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Jayne

Quote from: drummerboy on December 28, 2021, 10:52:44 AM
  When we did martial arts she of course wore the uniform gi pants, not sexy in any sense of the word. 

I find it hard to imagine anything more practical and modest than a gi.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

drummerboy

Quote from: Jayne on December 28, 2021, 10:59:34 AM
Quote from: drummerboy on December 28, 2021, 10:52:44 AM
  When we did martial arts she of course wore the uniform gi pants, not sexy in any sense of the word. 

I find it hard to imagine anything more practical and modest than a gi.

Amen.  That's what I told her, as she was of course worried about it.
- I'll get with the times when the times are worth getting with

"I like grumpy old cusses.  Hope to live long enough to be one" - John Wayne

TerrorDæmonum

The Martial Sports and Performance Art aspect is usually not a matter of clothing, but behaviours, especially if it is at all practical.

Of course, I'm not really familiar with the classes and they can vary a lot, but if there be grappling, there be moral hazards, no matter what is being worn.

There is a reason why the Greeks didn't let women see men wrestle. It was hardly appropriate for men...and they were ancient Greeks.


Maximilian

Quote from: Jayne on December 28, 2021, 10:59:34 AM
Quote from: drummerboy on December 28, 2021, 10:52:44 AM
  When we did martial arts she of course wore the uniform gi pants, not sexy in any sense of the word. 

I find it hard to imagine anything more practical and modest than a gi.

Asians do not agree with you. Females traditionally wore female dress for martial arts. They did not consider martial arts an excuse to wear male clothing.




TerrorDæmonum

"Asians" are not all the same, and the gi is very modern, from the 20th century.

So, historical or cultural dress of various Asian cultures have nothing to do with this uniform which was derived from a kimono.

Females did not traditionally train as soldiers in most Asian countries, especially those which are most known for international martial sports.

The gi is derived from a kimono though, and you can see in your video that is what they are wearing. The gi as you know it is actually a heavily modified kimono for the sport, and the trousers are separate pieces.

Whether or not one should wear one or not is another matter, but it isn't "male clothing" any more than any other specialized garment is. It is just sized differently for the same purpose. It is not a style and never was.

Jayne

Quote from: Maximilian on December 28, 2021, 03:18:14 PM

Asians do not agree with you. Females traditionally wore female dress for martial arts. They did not consider martial arts an excuse to wear male clothing.



This woman looks like she is wearing a hakama.  These are wide pleated trousers.  There are hakama for both men and women.

Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Maximilian

Quote from: Pæniteo on December 28, 2021, 03:45:08 PM
Females did not traditionally train as soldiers in most Asian countries, especially those which are most known for international martial sports.

Kendo and archery, as depicted in the photos above, are both traditionally practiced by females. And they wear female clothes, including long skirts, when they practice them.

Another traditional female martial art was the naginata. During the warring states period, females would practice the naginata in order to be able to protect their honor if their castle was overrun by the enemy.

Here is an authentic photo of naginata practice from the Thirties in which the females are all wearing female clothing, including kimonos and long skirts.

[Looks like I can't copy the hi-res image, so here is a link to the page.]

https://www.alamy.com/1930s-japan-practicing-martial-arts-a-group-of-female-students-in-hakama-practicing-naginata-a-pole-weapon-traditionally-used-by-members-of-the-samurai-class-ca-1936-showa-11-20th-century-vintage-gelatin-silver-print-image361600681.html



Quote from: Pæniteo on December 28, 2021, 03:45:08 PM
The gi is derived from a kimono though, and you can see in your video that is what they are wearing.

Yes, they are wearing kimonos. There are female kimonos and male kimonos. Females wear female clothes while practicing martial arts.

TerrorDæmonum

#22
Quote from: Maximilian on December 28, 2021, 04:00:43 PM
Kendo and archery, as depicted in the photos above, are both traditionally practiced by females. And they wear female clothes, including long skirts, when they practice them.
How long is "traditionally"?

QuoteAnother traditional female martial art was the naginata. During the warring states period, females would practice the naginata in order to be able to protect their honor if their castle was overrun by the enemy.
They tied their knees together and killed themselves (jigai). Women need a lot more than a melee weapon when fighting, especially if the other side is armed or armoured.

QuoteHere is an authentic photo of naginata practice from the Thirties in which the females are all wearing female clothing, including kimonos and long skirts.
The 1930s? Yoiu mean when the government of Japan was promoting a nationalistic agenda and traditional narratives, including the myth of bushido?

Look at 1936 in Imperial Japan. That is not "traditional" anything.

And those weapons were not used except in executions at best. They used firearms and modern weapons and had for many decades. That is just traditional nationalism being promoted by Imperial Japan at a time of great conflict.

Quote
Yes, they are wearing kimonos. There are female kimonos and male kimonos. Females wear female clothes while practicing martial arts.

Are you saying they should wear different types of clothing, or that they do? From what you wrote, it is clearly false: women and men often wear the same uniform designs in various martial sports.

But if you look at Wushu, you'll see women do dress differently, but . Note: Wushu is performance oriented.

And since China is bigger than Japan, and has far more practitioners/performers, you'll probably not have numbers to justify your conclusions.

Jayne

#23
Here are male and female kendo uniforms:



QuoteThe Hakama is one of the most well-known traditional pieces of a Samurai?s outfit and is also known as the popular martial arts pants that is part of the training uniform worn in various Japanese martial arts such as Iaido, Aikido, Kendo, and Kyudo.[...]

Men and women?s Kendo uniforms both feature the hakama, and when speaking of the Kendo Hakama, it features seven finely-made pleats where five are located in front while the two other pleats can be found at the back. It states that each of these seven pleats exhibits the seven virtues of the Bushido or what most people know, the Way of the Samurai.
https://kendo.supplies/kendo-hakama/
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Jayne

#24
More about hakama:

QuoteHakama: Traditional Japanese Clothing
While most foreigners know about kimono, another traditional Japanese garment called hakama is not that known amongst most foreign visitors in Japan. Hakama are the skirt-like pants that are worn over a kimono. It is a traditional piece of samurai clothing, and it was originally meant to protect a horseman's legs. At one point, samurai as a class dismounted and became more like foot-soldiers. They, however, persisted in wearing horseman's garb because it set them apart and made them easily identifiable.

There are different styles of hakama. The type worn by martial artists today is called the joba hakama, the garment is similar to pants and it is very comfortable for walking. Another type of hakama that is more like a skirt, called the lantern hakama, was worn on visits to the shogun or Emperor.[...]

Wearing Hakama
Hakama can be worn over any type of kimono except for the yukata, the colorful summer kimono. The garment used to be a required part of men's wear. In modern times men only still wear hakama for very formal occasions such as tea ceremonies, weddings, and funerals. Hakama are also regularly worn by practitioners of a variety of martial arts, such as Karate, Kendo, Iaido, Taido, Aikido, Ryu-te, and Ky?d?.

Women rarely wear hakama except at graduation ceremonies and for traditional Japanese sports such as Ky?d?, Aikido, and Kendo. The most iconic image of women in hakama is the Miko shrine maiden who assists in the maintenance and ceremonies of Shinto shrines. And because the Hakama was originally a battle uniform for Samurai, it has great mobility and it is exceptionally functional in comparison with kimono.

The hakama represents the values of the samurai, therefore the person wearing one should honor these values. Kimono is traditional Japanese clothing, while Hakama represents the honorary status of samurai. If you visit Japan it is recommended to have the experience of wearing a hakama.
https://www.japancitytour.com/info/japanese-culture/hakama_japan_clothes.html

From what I could figure out in this article https://www.seidoshop.com/blogs/the-seido-blog/12-comparison-how-to-choose-your-hakama, martial arts hakama for men and women are the same, but a man would tie his at the hips and woman at the waist.  I don't see how we could describe this situation as "Females traditionally wore female dress for martial arts."


In this picture of Miko Shrine Maidens we can see that the hakama are split like trousers, although they look like skirts when the wearer is standing still.
And here is a video of women doing Kendo which shows the same thing:
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEabxAmgAZk[/yt]
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

TerrorDæmonum

Can a woman with one leg wear trousers? Would would be the fundamental distinction between trousers and skirts for a woman with one leg?

(Actually, that applies to men too, as it is about the garments and their properties, rather than the gender of the person wearing them.)

Jayne

Trousers would be fitted around the stump of the missing leg, like this:



But a skirt would not:

Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

TerrorDæmonum

Quote from: Jayne on December 28, 2021, 05:46:04 PM
Trousers would be fitted around the stump of the missing leg, like this:

But a skirt would not:

"Residual limb" please. Stump is not the preferred nomenclature.

But, I meant it as a philosophical question: no leg at all. That means, no residual limb at all. A truly one legged person.

I just wrote a long post about a nuanced topic and nuanced language, so I'm going to hang out in the trouser thread for a bit. Writing about nuanced topics here can be...interesting.

Jayne

Quote from: Pæniteo on December 28, 2021, 05:55:50 PM
But, I meant it as a philosophical question: no leg at all. That means, no residual limb at all. A truly one legged person.

This sort of question is at an intersection of philosophy and linguistics.  It reminds me of Labov's experiment and Prototype theory.

QuoteLabov investigated the borders of words and concepts and the working of categorization in everyday communication. In a study drawings of ,,containers" with different formal characteristics where shown to participants. They had to assign them with either ,,cup", ,,bowl" or ,,vase". The decision gradually changed when they where asked to imagine the object filled with flowers or mashed potatoes for example. The categorization seems to be context dependent and fuzzy. Prototype theory in general states that we imagine categories of things around a strong member or representative of the category. It often refers to Wittgenstein's concept of ,,Familienähnlichkeit" (family likeness).

We were getting into this with hakama too.  Are they skirt-like trousers or trouser-like skirts?  The way we organize this sort of information in our minds is largely context dependent.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

TerrorDæmonum

Quote from: Jayne on December 28, 2021, 06:37:04 PM
We were getting into this with hakama too.  Are they skirt-like trousers or trouser-like skirts?  The way we organize this sort of information in our minds is largely context dependent.

Time to get Plato out for some enlightenment on this issue.

Maybe it is time to bring up Utilikilts. What do you think?