Did I break the Lenten fast?

Started by Daniel, February 28, 2015, 12:27:45 PM

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Daniel

Today I ate lunch as my meal, but then about 15 minutes later I ate a snack.  If I don't eat anything else for the remainder of the day, am I allowed to count the snack as my collation?  Or did I break the fast, since I ate it so early in the afternoon?

Also, is this grave matter?

Southern Ascetic

You're not under the pain of sin for fasting except for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Unless you believe the 1983 Code is invalid. :)

Chestertonian

does it specify when the snacks have to be if not i think you're ok
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

red solo cup

Quote from: Daniel on February 28, 2015, 12:27:45 PM
Today I ate lunch as my meal, but then about 15 minutes later I ate a snack.  If I don't eat anything else for the remainder of the day, am I allowed to count the snack as my collation?  Or did I break the fast, since I ate it so early in the afternoon?

Also, is this grave matter?
As I understand it one is allowed one meal and two snacks per day. The snacks together not equaling one meal and containing no meat.
Death created time to grow the things it will kill - Rust Cohle

Sanguine1

Quote from: Ascetik on February 28, 2015, 12:53:26 PM
You're not under the pain of sin for fasting except for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Unless you believe the 1983 Code is invalid. :)

Yes, it is my understanding that Fridays in Lent are abstinence

Daniel

Quote from: Ascetik on February 28, 2015, 12:53:26 PM
You're not under the pain of sin for fasting except for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Unless you believe the 1983 Code is invalid. :)
So, breaking the Church's fasting laws is always grave matter, but breaking a voluntary fast is not always grave matter?  Just making sure.

Quote from: red solo cup on February 28, 2015, 02:33:17 PM
As I understand it one is allowed one meal and two snacks per day. The snacks together not equaling one meal and containing no meat.
This seems to be correct.  I was under the impression that the two snacks were supposed to be eaten in place of meals (i.e. at the time you would normally eat the meal if it were a non-fasting day), but I wasn't really sure.

Penelope

Scruples. Stop it. Talk to a priest.

Miriam_M

Daniel,

Quote from: Penelope on February 28, 2015, 08:24:49 PM
Scruples. Stop it. Talk to a priest.

And those of us who care about you have told you this before, brother.   

God does not want us to be chained and caught up in needless anxiety.   Such excessive self-doubt does not come from the Holy Spirit.

God reads our hearts.  The intention should be there and the reasonable effort should be there with anything mandated by the Church.  Key words:  reasonable and mandated.

As someone else said, voluntary sacrifices do not fall within the category of sin.  Those would be any spiritual exercises if we choose to do those.  Given, however, that the restrictions you put on yourself can be shown to be unreasonable, you should not trust yourself to conceive of optional spiritual exercises and goals during Lent, but should consult a priest.  You can even just do that in the confessional, after confessing.  Tell him first honestly that you suffer from scruples (it may be apparent from the content of your Confession), and ask him what would be a good practical denial during Lent, beyond what is mandated.  Be prepared, though, that he may suggest that for you, the best penance would be not to seek additional forms of denial, but instead to read particular passages in Scripture which illumine God's generous, forgiving, and tolerant nature when we are acting in good will and with honest but reasonable effort.

It would be beneficial if you speak to a priest about this and come under his care, regularly.  Revisit the same priest for confession, if possible, so that he can track your progress in forgiving yourself and trusting that God forgives you.

We are most humble, thus most pleasing to God, when we acknowledge that our own efforts cannot eradicate our imperfections and that He alone is perfect.  We also please God when we accept the gift of His peace.

Here are some resources:
http://fathersofmercy.com/wp-content/uploads/Scrupulosity-Ten-Commandments-to-Guard-Against-Scrupulosity.pdf

Micah 6:8 "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness (or mercy), and to walk humbly with your God?"

Ephesians 2:4-7 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Psalm 145
8 The Lord is gracious and merciful,
    slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
9 The Lord is good to all,
    and his mercy is over all that he has made.

I'll pray for you at Mass.

Bonaventure

As it was within close proximity of your meal, I wouldn't even consider it a collation. I deal with the menace of scruples myself. Unless you willfully desired to break your Lenten fast to offend our Lord, don't even worry about it brother.

St. Drogo

The Catholic Encyclopedia says this:
Quote
Nothing like a noteworthy interruption should he admitted during the course of the midday meal, because such a break virtually forms two meals instead of one. Common sense, taking into consideration individual intention and the duration of the interruption, must finally determine whether a given interruption is noteworthy or not. Ordinarily an interruption of one half hour is considered slight. Nevertheless, an individual, after having commenced the midday meal and meeting with a bonafide interruption lasting for an hour or more is fully justified in resuming and finishing the meal after the termination of an interruption. Finally, unless special reasons suggest the contrary, it is not allowed to give immoderate length to the time of this meal. Ordinarily, a duration of more than two hours is considered immoderate in this matter.

Southern Ascetic

Quote from: Daniel on February 28, 2015, 04:09:31 PM

So, breaking the Church's fasting laws is always grave matter, but breaking a voluntary fast is not always grave matter?  Just making sure.

Exactly.

Days perscribed for fasting, Ash Wednesday and Good Friday it is grave matter, any other day, it is not.

Bonaventure

Quote from: St. Drogo on March 01, 2015, 05:59:28 AM
The Catholic Encyclopedia says this:
Quote
Nothing like a noteworthy interruption should he admitted during the course of the midday meal, because such a break virtually forms two meals instead of one. Common sense, taking into consideration individual intention and the duration of the interruption, must finally determine whether a given interruption is noteworthy or not. Ordinarily an interruption of one half hour is considered slight. Nevertheless, an individual, after having commenced the midday meal and meeting with a bonafide interruption lasting for an hour or more is fully justified in resuming and finishing the meal after the termination of an interruption. Finally, unless special reasons suggest the contrary, it is not allowed to give immoderate length to the time of this meal. Ordinarily, a duration of more than two hours is considered immoderate in this matter.

So he's covered, even under the 1917 Law.

Daniel

Quote from: Miriam_M on February 28, 2015, 10:24:09 PM
Daniel,

Quote from: Penelope on February 28, 2015, 08:24:49 PM
Scruples. Stop it. Talk to a priest.

And those of us who care about you have told you this before, brother.   

God does not want us to be chained and caught up in needless anxiety.   Such excessive self-doubt does not come from the Holy Spirit.

God reads our hearts.  The intention should be there and the reasonable effort should be there with anything mandated by the Church.  Key words:  reasonable and mandated.

As someone else said, voluntary sacrifices do not fall within the category of sin.  Those would be any spiritual exercises if we choose to do those.  Given, however, that the restrictions you put on yourself can be shown to be unreasonable, you should not trust yourself to conceive of optional spiritual exercises and goals during Lent, but should consult a priest.  You can even just do that in the confessional, after confessing.  Tell him first honestly that you suffer from scruples (it may be apparent from the content of your Confession), and ask him what would be a good practical denial during Lent, beyond what is mandated.  Be prepared, though, that he may suggest that for you, the best penance would be not to seek additional forms of denial, but instead to read particular passages in Scripture which illumine God's generous, forgiving, and tolerant nature when we are acting in good will and with honest but reasonable effort.

It would be beneficial if you speak to a priest about this and come under his care, regularly.  Revisit the same priest for confession, if possible, so that he can track your progress in forgiving yourself and trusting that God forgives you.

We are most humble, thus most pleasing to God, when we acknowledge that our own efforts cannot eradicate our imperfections and that He alone is perfect.  We also please God when we accept the gift of His peace.

Here are some resources:
http://fathersofmercy.com/wp-content/uploads/Scrupulosity-Ten-Commandments-to-Guard-Against-Scrupulosity.pdf

Micah 6:8 "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness (or mercy), and to walk humbly with your God?"

Ephesians 2:4-7 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Psalm 145
8 The Lord is gracious and merciful,
    slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
9 The Lord is good to all,
    and his mercy is over all that he has made.

I'll pray for you at Mass.
Thank you for your prayers and for your concern and advice.

My priest is already aware that I'm scrupulous, and he has given me spiritual direction about two or three times during the past few months.  Unfortunately he is very busy and he cannot meet with me on a more regular basis.  One thing that he did tell me is that I should learn more moral theology, but I'm having a difficult time with that (partly because I'm really not very good at learning that sort of stuff on my own).

Anyway, I now realize that breaking a voluntary fast is not sinful, so when I went to confession today then I did not confess that I broke the fast.  I did confess that I committed gluttony though, since gluttony was involved here.  I figured that what I did was a mortal sin, because it had directed me away from God as my end.  My priest told me that it wasn't a mortal sin and he briefly explained why.  I do not doubt my priest, but now I'm a little confused, since what he said seems to contradict the Summa.  Maybe someone could help me to understand this a little better?  I think I'll start a new thread.

MilesChristi

Because Gluttony, although sinful, is not normally a mortal sin.

Drunkeness is a form of gluttony that is a mortal sin, but having a snack is not mortal, especially since the fast most likely makes you hungry.
The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
    It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
    It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
    And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
    And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.

And for all this, nature is never spent;
    There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
    Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs —
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
    World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.