How is this not a sin?

Started by TandJ, July 23, 2021, 01:51:26 PM

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Justin Martyr

Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 03:55:08 PM
Many things I suppose aren't publicly know at the time and Church Militant is "breaking" the news story.

If they have legitimate evidence and such faults need to be publically known (like pedophilia), then I would imagine there is no sin provided they approach it the correct way.

What if we don't need to know. Like the case of so and so Bishop had an Italian model live with him etc

Good question, I don't nessecarily have an answer. Ultimately it's up to you (and, preferably, a good orthodox spiritual director) to judge if it's a hindrance to your spiritual life or not.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

diaduit

Why shouldn't we know if the Bishops are committing sins against the flesh especially sodomy.  Big difference between a female lady model and  a go go boy but both should be revealed if the Bishop is not changing his ways.  So say I had absolute proof that a bishop was messing around with a female or male.  I would imagine I should take it to their superiors, if Bishop still continues with this behaviour and is actually flaunting it as he had no consequences then I would say that it is important for the Bishop to be exposed as frankly they cannot be considered reliable spiritual guardians for their flock.

Now plastering photos of so and so in compromising situations for entertainment purposes is a different matter.

james03

TandJ, first off, aren't you the one that has a little problem with scruples?

So consider this.  During the raping of little boys in the arse scandal, MANY people tried to get things corrected on the down low to avoid damaging the Church.  How did that work out?  So given that we now know how the fags infesting the Church work to cover things up, it is absolutely vital and necessary to get these things publicized.  It is the opposite of sin;  it is a duty.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

By the way, not busting on you for the scruples.  I'm just catching a whiff of them.  Look at what it did to Daniel.  Don't get like that, so nip it in the bud.  Go binge watch some Church Militant and chill out about it.  Reread the ten commandments of scruples while you are at it.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Justin Martyr

Quote from: james03 on July 23, 2021, 06:08:27 PM
TandJ, first off, aren't you the one that has a little problem with scruples?

I did not know this. TandJ, if you have scrupulosity you should ask a good spiritual director for his advice and obey him without question. This is the best (and traditional) course of action for the scrupulous; and, as someone who struggles with scrupulosity myself, I can affirm that the traditional advice is sound and has helped immensely.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

mikemac

I have confessed anger on a couple of occasions giving the details and my priest said that it was not a sin on my part because it was righteous anger.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
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MaximGun

Of course you need to know.  How can any evil be dealt with if you sweep it under the rug?

There are some real milksops on this forum.  You're pathetic.

Jayne

#22
Quote from: MaximGun on July 23, 2021, 10:23:44 PM
Of course you need to know.  How can any evil be dealt with if you sweep it under the rug?

There are some real milksops on this forum.  You're pathetic.

What difference does it make if we know about the sins of others?  We have no authority or power over these situations.  Do you think that you are "dealing with evil" by calling people names on the Internet.  Is that, to your mind, some sort of effective action? 

Revealing sins of others needs to be done for a good reason.  One can report to a superior or warn those who are endangered.  One can do it for the spiritual good of the one committing the sin.  Merely doing it because one enjoys feeling indignant or because one likes to look down on "milksops" is not an adequate reason.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

james03

QuoteDo you think that you are "dealing with evil" by calling people names on the Internet.

Actually..... yes.  Exposing hypocrites and ridiculing them has been the only tool that has shown success.  Why do you think there is all the censorship in big tech?  People were starting to point and laugh at people like Hillary and Pelosi (and electing Trump).  Doing this even drove out McCarrick (spelling?).

Getting in evil's face and spitting on it is a masculine spirit in society that is slowly rising and supplanting the matriarchal spirit that rules the West.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Tennessean

Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 03:55:08 PM
Many things I suppose aren't publicly know at the time and Church Militant is "breaking" the news story.

If they have legitimate evidence and such faults need to be publically known (like pedophilia), then I would imagine there is no sin provided they approach it the correct way.

What if we don't need to know. Like the case of so and so Bishop had an Italian model live with him etc
There's that scripture of the Corinthian boy who slept with his father's wife. Why would we need to know this? Apparently news of it reached St Paul, and he was irate. Granted, he's an apostle, but if such a thing as who's shagging who in the parish bothers an apostle, the laity might need to pay attention too. The whole church in Corinth were bragging about it, how tolerant they were. Paul sent his right hand man to inquire about the situation. Imagine their pale faces, when Timothy (?) shows up like the Spanish Inquisition, with a rather nasty hand written letter, from the man who was suffering for them in prison. They turned around pretty fast and kicked the guy out, who repented and came back. Not even the pagans wanted him. Severity and public scorn (within bounds) can be all it takes to change a person on their way to hell.

Justin Martyr

Quote from: Tennessean on July 24, 2021, 07:05:18 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 03:55:08 PM
Many things I suppose aren't publicly know at the time and Church Militant is "breaking" the news story.

If they have legitimate evidence and such faults need to be publically known (like pedophilia), then I would imagine there is no sin provided they approach it the correct way.

What if we don't need to know. Like the case of so and so Bishop had an Italian model live with him etc
There's that scripture of the Corinthian boy who slept with his father's wife. Why would we need to know this? Apparently news of it reached St Paul, and he was irate. Granted, he's an apostle, but if such a thing as who's shagging who in the parish bothers an apostle, the laity might need to pay attention too. The whole church in Corinth were bragging about it, how tolerant they were. Paul sent his right hand man to inquire about the situation. Imagine their pale faces, when Timothy (?) shows up like the Spanish Inquisition, with a rather nasty hand written letter, from the man who was suffering for them in prison. They turned around pretty fast and kicked the guy out, who repented and came back. Not even the pagans wanted him. Severity and public scorn (within bounds) can be all it takes to change a person on their way to hell.

Somewhat tangential, but that particular part of 1 Corinthians always creeped me out. Who sleeps with their step mom then brags about it? Bleugh. Thank goodness the man in question had repented by 2 Corinthians.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Gardener

Even the new Catechism understands the idea of participating/cooperating:

Quote1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;

- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;

- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;

- by protecting evil-doers.

1869 Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. "Structures of sin" are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144

Many priests and Bishops, it would seem, are either directly guilty of sodomy or at least in cooperation with it.

In law, this latter issue is called being an accessory to X crime. Murder, Armed Robbery, etc.

It not only can be called out, but should be called out.

Institutionally, this has led the visible Church hierarchy (nuanced discussions of loss of office, etc., aside), which is the face of the Catholic Church, and in a practical sense "is" the Church, to become, in many eyes, a "structure of sin". Correct or not, people like Fr. James Martin, S.J., cause people to see the Catholic Church as approving not only a sin, but one of the sins which cry out to heaven for vengeance. As such, people then commit the grave sins of themselves either approving sodomy or engaging in it without a sense of guilt; it causes others to reject the Holy Spirit in conversion, commit apostasy, heresy, and/or schism. When someone in the hierarchy is a principal actor in the sin, such as McCarrick, it's even more dire when it seems as though he had institutional approbation for decades.

Mockery of such people isn't just not a sin, but it's practically a duty lest we appear ourselves to give consent by silence or excuses.

Now, can it become a sin? Absolutely. But there is no sin in calling a spade a spade.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

mikemac

Okay let's get specific.  When I was in high school on the summer holidays I went to a friends place in Toronto for a week or so.  Just for fun the two of us and another friend got some rotten tomatoes, went to Young Street and threw the rotten tomatoes at the queers coming out of a queer bar.  I shouldn't brag ... ahem ... but I was a pretty good shot.  This was back around the time that young shoe shine boy was taken off of Young Street, sodomized and murdered by two or three queers.

Would you say that I committed a sin?

Personally I see it as righteous anger.  In fact I think if more people had have done something like this back then and not have been so accepting of the queer culture the LGBTQ movement would not be so pushy today.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source

Miriam_M

Quote from: mikemac on July 27, 2021, 12:17:35 PM
Okay let's get specific.  When I was in high school on the summer holidays I went to a friends place in Toronto for a week or so.  Just for fun the two of us and another friend got some rotten tomatoes, went to Young Street and threw the rotten tomatoes at the queers coming out of a queer bar.  I shouldn't brag ... ahem ... but I was a pretty good shot.  This was back around the time that young shoe shine boy was taken off of Young Street, sodomized and murdered by two or three queers.

Would you say that I committed a sin?

Yes.  We are not permitted to convert our righteous anger into physical violence.  That's for the proper authorities -- even though I agree that those authorities failed in their responsibilities by removing sodomy from the category of crime.  There would be no end to physical violence if we all acted physically on our passions, no matter how righteous our indignation.

In cases where we have authority over another, such as our own children, we are permitted to exact restrained corporal punishment as a form of correction, but not to strangers over whom we have no authority.

Physically striking another except in imminent self-defense or defense of a third person(s) is a sin.

mikemac

Quote from: Miriam_M on July 27, 2021, 02:01:33 PM
Quote from: mikemac on July 27, 2021, 12:17:35 PM
Okay let's get specific.  When I was in high school on the summer holidays I went to a friends place in Toronto for a week or so.  Just for fun the two of us and another friend got some rotten tomatoes, went to Young Street and threw the rotten tomatoes at the queers coming out of a queer bar.  I shouldn't brag ... ahem ... but I was a pretty good shot.  This was back around the time that young shoe shine boy was taken off of Young Street, sodomized and murdered by two or three queers.

Would you say that I committed a sin?

Personally I see it as righteous anger.  In fact I think if more people had have done something like this back then and not have been so accepting of the queer culture the LGBTQ movement would not be so pushy today.

Yes.  We are not permitted to convert our righteous anger into physical violence.  That's for the proper authorities -- even though I agree that those authorities failed in their responsibilities by removing sodomy from the category of crime.  There would be no end to physical violence if we all acted physically on our passions, no matter how righteous our indignation.

In cases where we have authority over another, such as our own children, we are permitted to exact restrained corporal punishment as a form of correction, but not to strangers over whom we have no authority.

Physically striking another except in imminent self-defense or defense of a third person(s) is a sin.

Well that relates to acceptance of queer culture and how the LGBTQ movement got so pushy like we see today.

Doing something about it is in defense of a third person, you know like the shoe shine boy, so that more children are not sodomized and murdered by queers like he was.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source