Humility: Good or Bad?

[Probius]

According to Krauss, particles are coming into and going out of existence all the time.  They only exist for a fraction of a second.

[Non Nobis]

I think most people with "uncommon sense" agree that the atheist's argument is defeated if one can prove that before there was "something", there was "nothing".  And something cannot come from nothing without the supernatural, i.e. God. 

I think that St. Thomas taught that we know only by faith that the world had a beginning.  The world is just as dependent on God at any point in time whether time had a beginning or not.  (We do know by faith, Genesis, etc that in fact the world had a beginning, and was made from nothing)

But maybe there is evidence that St. Thomas was unaware of.   In in case his proofs start with the world as it is now, not by proving a beginning.

[rbjmartin]

According to Krauss, particles are coming into and going out of existence all the time.  They only exist for a fraction of a second.

It's not surprising that you give intellectual assent to a proposition that denies the common experience of our senses, simply because it fits your preconceived determination that there is no God.

[Landless Laborer]

I think most people with "uncommon sense" agree that the atheist's argument is defeated if one can prove that before there was "something", there was "nothing".  And something cannot come from nothing without the supernatural, i.e. God. 

I think that St. Thomas taught that we know only by faith that the world had a beginning.  The world is just as dependent on God at any point in time whether time had a beginning or not.  (We do know by faith, Genesis, etc that in fact the world had a beginning, and was made from nothing)

But maybe there is evidence that St. Thomas was unaware of.   In in case his proofs start with the world as it is now, not by proving a beginning.

Non Nobis, i think St. Thomas would not change his assertion, that we can only know by faith that the world had a beginning, even given the new evidence that seems to prove it.   To scientists, a beginning would prove the existence of God...presumably.  Nevertheless,  atheists will always have an "out", because they can say the field of science is dynamic, and there may be new evidence in the future that contradicts today's. 
However i applaud Fr Spitzer's work.  His mission is to teach Catholic High School theology teachers how to defend the existence of God to students, against people like Stephen Hawking et al., who have so much authority and weight, and how much of their opinion is b.s., when held up to their own scientific method.   You ask a lot of kids today why they don't believe in God, and they will often cite Stephen Hawking, the "smartest guy in the world". 

Not to get sidetracked, but it is sort of like the peer reviewed studies that determined that we should avoid fat to reduce heart disease.  Strict, meticulous, painstaking studies, ridiculous conclusion, but nobody ever takes time to look at the actual studies.  (yes there is motive...producers can now sell milk with the most expensive part removed, for virtually the same price, and be heroes to boot.)    (okay there goes my credibility but who cares)

Fr Spitzer examines cutting edge physics without the goal-seeking bias of atheism.  (Of course he has his own bias Flyboy, everybody does, but most scientists are atheists i think.) 

[Probius]

According to Krauss, particles are coming into and going out of existence all the time.  They only exist for a fraction of a second.

It's not surprising that you give intellectual assent to a proposition that denies the common experience of our senses, simply because it fits your preconceived determination that there is no God.

I don't trust the senses alone, they are merely a doorway through which information enters the mind in order to be processed by reason.

[rbjmartin]

According to Krauss, particles are coming into and going out of existence all the time.  They only exist for a fraction of a second.

It's not surprising that you give intellectual assent to a proposition that denies the common experience of our senses, simply because it fits your preconceived determination that there is no God.

I don't trust the senses alone, they are merely a doorway through which information enters the mind in order to be processed by reason.

But the reason you don't believe in the existence of God is because you say you have no sensory proof of his existence (i.e. no "measurable or observable" proof), so you DO rely on your senses. Whereas, I believe in God because the sensory knowledge I have gained (which I openly acknowledge I trust) processed by reason leads me to the belief in a Supreme Being.

Once again, your philosophy shows inconsistencies revealing your irrational predilection for atheism.

[Probius]

According to Krauss, particles are coming into and going out of existence all the time.  They only exist for a fraction of a second.

It's not surprising that you give intellectual assent to a proposition that denies the common experience of our senses, simply because it fits your preconceived determination that there is no God.

I don't trust the senses alone, they are merely a doorway through which information enters the mind in order to be processed by reason.

But the reason you don't believe in the existence of God is because you say you have no sensory proof of his existence (i.e. no "measurable or observable" proof), so you DO rely on your senses. Whereas, I believe in God because the sensory knowledge I have gained (which I openly acknowledge I trust) processed by reason leads me to the belief in a Supreme Being.

Once again, your philosophy shows inconsistencies revealing your irrational predilection for atheism.

I'll try to put it this way.  Knowledge comes from the reason informed by the senses.  All learning involves the senses and the reason.  Our senses can trick us, however.  It looks like the sun moves across the sky, but of course it is actually the earth which is moving.  Just because my senses tell me something, does not mean that is what I am seeing.  We must reason things out.  But, if I don't experience something, I can't know it.

[voxxpopulisuxx]

According to Krauss, particles are coming into and going out of existence all the time.  They only exist for a fraction of a second.

It's not surprising that you give intellectual assent to a proposition that denies the common experience of our senses, simply because it fits your preconceived determination that there is no God.

I don't trust the senses alone, they are merely a doorway through which information enters the mind in order to be processed by reason.

what does it mean to Love? Why do we grieve? Why is a crime against a child more henious than an adult prision convict. Why can music communicate to people of all cultures times and places. What is beauty? Why does the betrayal of a friend hurt more than the actions of an enemy? More questions unanswerable by atheism.

[Probius]

According to Krauss, particles are coming into and going out of existence all the time.  They only exist for a fraction of a second.

It's not surprising that you give intellectual assent to a proposition that denies the common experience of our senses, simply because it fits your preconceived determination that there is no God.

I don't trust the senses alone, they are merely a doorway through which information enters the mind in order to be processed by reason.

what does it mean to Love? Why do we grieve? Why is a crime against a child more henious than an adult prision convict. Why can music communicate to people of all cultures times and places. What is beauty? Why does the betrayal of a friend hurt more than the actions of an enemy? More questions unanswerable by atheism.

What are you talking about?  Can you really answer those questions by just saying, God did it?  I can use reason to answer all of your questions.  Love is the recognition of your own values in another person.  We grieve when we lose someone we love.  A crime against a child is more heinous because a child is innocent and the convict is not.  It is very human to wish for justice to be done, this is because justice makes society a more pleasant place in which to live.  Music, and all art, is the manifestation of metaphysical values, these values are shared by different cultures.  Beauty is value recognized in art.  If I see value in a piece of art, I am witnessing beauty.  Betrayal by a friend hurts because I expect more from a friend, I have put trust in a friend and he has betrayed that trust.  Too easy.

[Clare]

I'm just reading/skimming through this thread, and I'm on page 3, so there's a lot more to go, but I thought I'd make an observation on this.

... The more that I recognize the truth of God, and the more that I recognize the truth about myself, then the more I will realize that I am certainly much less than a worm...

Undoubtedly. But then there's the fact that the Son of God could be bothered to become man, and die for us worms. We can't be that insignificant. It's a pardox, I guess.

[Clare]

I'm just reading/skimming through this thread, and I'm on page 3, so there's a lot more to go, but I thought I'd make an observation on this.

... The more that I recognize the truth of God, and the more that I recognize the truth about myself, then the more I will realize that I am certainly much less than a worm...

Undoubtedly. But then there's the fact that the Son of God could be bothered to become man, and die for us worms. We can't be that insignificant. It's a pardox, I guess.

Oh, and then there's the fact that we're created in God's image, and have to see Christ in each other.

I guess we have to see ourselves as worms or dust, but not everyone else; meanwhile everyone else should see themselves as worms or dust, but not us.

[voxxpopulisuxx]

Flyboy you just replaced God....with yourself. Please define metaphysical...seems to me this is. Nonexistan in atheistic terms. And if youll notice I said ATHEISM not atheists..have no answer. This goes to my point that there is no such thing as a true atheists....only cafeteria atheists who pick and choose when to deny a creator.

[Maximilian]

I'm just reading/skimming through this thread, and I'm on page 3, so there's a lot more to go, but I thought I'd make an observation on this.

... The more that I recognize the truth of God, and the more that I recognize the truth about myself, then the more I will realize that I am certainly much less than a worm...

Undoubtedly. But then there's the fact that the Son of God could be bothered to become man, and die for us worms. We can't be that insignificant. It's a pardox, I guess.

It might be a paradox in some senses, but it is not a paradox with regard to the topic of this thread which is humility.

Humility is knowledge of the truth. What is the truth about me? What is the truth about God? Having established some parameters, we can then estimate the inequality between these two objects -- which is infinite. Becoming aware of the infinite lowness of myself compared to God, what is the proper relationship for me to have with Him? And what degree of gratitude is appropriate for any recognition or kindness shown to me by God?

[voxxpopulisuxx]

Self condemnation in the face of Truth....repentance...gratfullness...contentment ...happyness with God. Seems to be the Order of things as Ive observed and experienced.

[Maximilian]

I'm just reading/skimming through this thread, and I'm on page 3, so there's a lot more to go, but I thought I'd make an observation on this.

... The more that I recognize the truth of God, and the more that I recognize the truth about myself, then the more I will realize that I am certainly much less than a worm...

Undoubtedly. But then there's the fact that the Son of God could be bothered to become man, and die for us worms. We can't be that insignificant. It's a pardox, I guess.

Oh, and then there's the fact that we're created in God's image, and have to see Christ in each other.

I guess we have to see ourselves as worms or dust, but not everyone else; meanwhile everyone else should see themselves as worms or dust, but not us.

You're involved in intellectual speculation about humility, instead of developing the true knowledge of humility itself.

It's like knowing the taste of some strange foreign food, like a super hot pepper, for example. You can read a mountain of books about it, and you can speculate about it to your hearts content, but until you put the pepper in your mouth, you will never know what it tastes like.

Here is a little section on humility from "the celebrated Fr. Lallemant" who initiated the very powerful novena to St. Joseph which is in the St. Joseph Prayer Book, available very cheaply from TAN Books:

We are not content with this allotment ; we take
God's share to ourselves ; we desire to have the glory
as well as the profit of our possessions. This injustice
is a kind of blasphemy ; for nothing is due to nature,
considered in itself and thus we ought to consider it
but vileness and abasement. It is to that we ought
incessantly to tend and aspire with a desire and a
thirst insatiable, since therein consists our true great-
ness ; all else is but presumption, vanity, illusion, and
sin.

So much so, that they in whom this desire of ab-
jection is most ardent are the greatest in the sight of
God. It is they who, above all others, walk in the
truth, and they are so much the more like unto God,
as with Him they seek only His glory. This is His
own property; glory belongs to Him alone. As for us,
all our estate is nothingness; and if we attribute any
thing to ourselves, we are robbers. If we love the es-
teem and applause of the world, we are fools ; we feed
ourselves with wind.

We commonly form to ourselves a false idea of
humility, imagining it to be something degrading to
us. It has the very contrary effect ; for as it gives us
a true knowledge of ourselves, and is itself unmixed
truth, it brings us near to God, and consequently it
confers true greatness upon us, which we seek in vain
out of God. Humiliation degrades us only in the estimation of
men, which is nothing ; it raises us in the estimation
of God, in which true glory consists.

Upon such occasions, so trying to nature, we must
reflect, that if men behold us despised, defamed, and
made a mock of, God looks upon us as exceedingly
exalted by the very things which lower us in the eyes
of men. Jesus Christ rejoices to see us wearing His
livery, and the angels envy us the honour.

Some one will say,
" I cannot persuade myself that
I am a greater sinner than others. If I break one rule,
I see others who break many ; if I am guilty of certain
faults, I see others who are guilty of greater."

The difficulty we feel in conceiving this humble
opinion of ourselves arises from our being as yet so
very unspiritual. We shall have it when we are more
advanced. In all arts and sciences there are secrets
which are known only to those who are adepts in them.

So in spiritual science, which is the most excellent of
all, inasmuch as it is purely supernatural, there are
maxims the knowledge of which belongs only to the
Saints, who are doctors in this divine science. A St.
Francis of Assisi, a St. Francis Borgia, were most emi-
nent masters in humility. They esteemed themselves,
not after a manner of speaking, but sincerely and from
the bottom of their heart, the greatest sinners in the
world. They were inwardly persuaded of that which
their lips declared.