Humility: Good or Bad?

[Probius]

Gravity is a real force which can be measured.

You're moving the goal posts. That wasn't your criteria. Here was your definition: "You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence."

How does gravity qualify?

I'll grant you that, my definition was inadequate.  Reality can be measured, in one way or another.  If you cannot measure a thing, how do you know it's there?

[Probius]

I have ignored nothing. 

That is pride speaking, the pride that prevents you from learning about truth and reality. I don't get the impression that you have read even the modern philosophers like Heidegger. You have an existentialist philosophy but you haven't read the existentialists.

I have thought about these matters, but have simply come to a different conclusion. 

"Thinking about these matters" is pointless. The "thinking about the meaning of life" approach is doomed to failure because

1. I'm simply not smart enough. The smartest men who ever lived like Plato and Aristotle never really succeeded with that method. I'm not Plato or Aristotle.

2. I don't live long enough. The lifespan of a human is not sufficiently long to successfully conclude this undertaking. It's like a mayfly trying to figure out the meaning of its life. It's dead long before it will ever have succeeded.

What would be a better method?

[Maximilian]

Reality can be measured, in one way or another.  If you cannot measure a thing, how do you know it's there?

Consciousness is reality. How do you measure consciousness? How much does a dream weigh? How far does it extend in space?

[Basilios]

Gravity is a real force which can be measured.

You're moving the goal posts. That wasn't your criteria. Here was your definition: "You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence."

How does gravity qualify?

I'll grant you that, my definition was inadequate.  Reality can be measured, in one way or another.  If you cannot measure a thing, how do you know it's there?

This is called begging the question. You are stating as brute facts something that supports your worldview and then concluding based odd of that. Who says reality can be measured? And we've yet to discuss what counts as reality anyway.

You're a hardline materialist. Edward Feser is a great Catholic philosopher who deals with this topic a lot and has done so recently. His books are excellent too.

[Probius]

Gravity is a real force which can be measured.

You're moving the goal posts. That wasn't your criteria. Here was your definition: "You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence."

How does gravity qualify?

I'll grant you that, my definition was inadequate.  Reality can be measured, in one way or another.  If you cannot measure a thing, how do you know it's there?

This is called begging the question. You are stating as brute facts something that supports your worldview and then concluding based odd of that. Who says reality can be measured? And we've yet to discuss what counts as reality anyway.

You're a hardline materialist. Edward Feser is a great Catholic philosopher who deals with this topic a lot and has done so recently. His books are excellent too.

Thanks, I'll read him.  Have you ever played out the Descartes thought experiment in your head?  So much of what a man believes is based on where he is born, who is parents were, and the atmosphere in which he lives.  Well, what if you took everything off the table and asked yourself what do you really know?  What could you prove beyond a doubt?  The scary thing is that it isn't much.

[Probius]

Reality can be measured, in one way or another.  If you cannot measure a thing, how do you know it's there?

Consciousness is reality. How do you measure consciousness? How much does a dream weigh? How far does it extend in space?

Well I know that I have consciousness, I don't know that I have a soul.

[Maximilian]

What would be a better method?

Prayer. There is a being who is infinitely beyond our comprehension, who is, moreover, our creator. We are like those figures who spin around and hammer the bells on those old clocks in European town squares, and God is the clockmaker. If He doesn't tell us what to do, then we have no way of knowing.

Prayer is speaking to God. The amazing thing, beyond all our hopes or dreams or expectations is that God is willing to communicate with us. When He created us and provided us with all of our various faculties like our organs and our intellect and our memory, He also provided us with the most important faculty of all, the ability to pray. We have the ability to communicate with our Creator.

We are like one of those black megaliths in "2001: A Space Oddysey" which has been launched into the universe, but built into it is a transmitter so that it can communicate across the reaches of space with its Creator. And one day you trigger it and make contact. Jody Foster is trying to make "Contact" with aliens, but I can make contact right this minute with the Creator of those aliens, assuming they exist.

The 2 realities that prevent me from succeeding at figuring out the meaning of my life do not apply to God. He has infinite wisdom and infinite time. He is willing to be a parent to me if I am willing to be a child to Him and accept His authority (as we discussed on the other thread). If I do, then He will educate me and draw me out of my ignorance and misery, but if I refuse, then I kill time in my pointless existence until I die.

[Probius]

What would be a better method?

Prayer. There is a being who is infinitely beyond our comprehension, who is, moreover, our creator. We are like those figures who spin around and hammer the bells on those old clocks in European town squares, and God is the clockmaker. If He doesn't tell us what to do, then we have no way of knowing.

Prayer is speaking to God. The amazing thing, beyond all our hopes or dreams or expectations is that God is willing to communicate with us. When He created us and provided us with all of our various faculties like our organs and our intellect and our memory, He also provided us with the most important faculty of all, the ability to pray. We have the ability to communicate with our Creator.

We are like one of those black megaliths in "2001: A Space Oddysey" which has been launched into the universe, but built into it is a transmitter so that it can communicate across the reaches of space with its Creator. And one day you trigger it and make contact. Jody Foster is trying to make "Contact" with aliens, but I can make contact right this minute with the Creator of those aliens, assuming they exist.

The 2 realities that prevent me from succeeding at figuring out the meaning of my life do not apply to God. He has infinite wisdom and infinite time. He is willing to be a parent to me if I am willing to be a child to Him and accept His authority (as we discussed on the other thread). If I do, then He will educate me and draw me out of my ignorance and misery, but if I refuse, then I kill time in my pointless existence until I die.

I have tried prayer, with a lot of effort, all I heard was my own inner thought.  Since you talk about knowing, how can I know there is a God at all?

[Maximilian]

Well I know that I have consciousness

Right, which is immaterial. So that was the point under discussion. Does the immaterial world exist? You acknowledge the existence of consciousness. Therefore we have concluded that the immaterial world is real.

Hundreds of years before Christ, Plato addressed the issue, "Between the material world and the immaterial world, which one is prior and independent and which one is subsequent and contingent?"

[Probius]

Well I know that I have consciousness

Right, which is immaterial. So that was the point under discussion. Does the immaterial world exist? You acknowledge the existence of consciousness. Therefore we have concluded that the immaterial world is real.

Hundreds of years before Christ, Plato addressed the issue, "Between the material world and the immaterial world, which one is prior and independent and which one is subsequent and contingent?"

I don't think consciousness is immaterial.  Imagine if an unscrupulous doctor did brain surgery on a man.  The more of this man's brain he removed, the less consciousness he would have.  Should the doctor remove all of the man's brain he would die.  Without the brain, there is no consciousness, ergo consciousness is material.

[LouisIX]

How is humility anti-humanistic?

Humanism celebrates independence, but humility recognizes our dependence.
Humanism celebrates equality, but humility recognizes our inferiority.
Humanism celebrates the achievements of human society, while humility recognizes our nature as creatures who soon will die and whose activities apart from God are only evil.

It is anti-Humanism, but not anti-human, which was my point.

[Maximilian]

Since you talk about knowing, how can I know there is a God at all?

Because we see existence. Existence is the most surprising thing of all. Not just our own existence, but the existence of anything at all. Modern 20th-century philosophers and scientists agree that existence is fundamentally a paradox for which they cannot account. Existence is the proof of God.

If I show you a coin, and you see one side of the coin, you know there must be another side to the coin. The human intellect cannot conceive a one-sided coin. It's the same way with existence. We see one side of the universe, the material created side. There must be another side. The fact that there is one side means there must be the other side of the coin.

I have tried prayer, with a lot of effort, all I heard was my own inner thought. 

That is too bad. I would say keep trying. If scientists are willing to persist for decades with their "SETI" experiments, then we should have the same kind of persistence with our own efforts. Also the scientists will continually alter the conditions of the experiment, like changing the wavelengths to which they are listening, in order to try every possible way to have a successful result. We too have to keep trying every possible way to create the right condition for successful prayer.

In my own experience, which perhaps is not typical, but I believe is possible for every person, every time that I do my part to pray, God does His part by responding. Returning to the opening topic of this thread, and comparing it to the SETI example, humility is a necessary pre-condition for successful prayer. A proud person trying to prayer is like a SETI scientist listening for sound waves from outer space. Sound waves don't travel through outer space, they only echo within our own small, confined atmosphere. Such are the thoughts of the proud. The grace of God, on the other hand, is not bound by time or space, but it is perceived only by the humble who are tuned to the frequencies of the other world and not to the glorification of themselves.

[Basilios]

Gravity is a real force which can be measured.

You're moving the goal posts. That wasn't your criteria. Here was your definition: "You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence."

How does gravity qualify?

I'll grant you that, my definition was inadequate.  Reality can be measured, in one way or another.  If you cannot measure a thing, how do you know it's there?

This is called begging the question. You are stating as brute facts something that supports your worldview and then concluding based odd of that. Who says reality can be measured? And we've yet to discuss what counts as reality anyway.

You're a hardline materialist. Edward Feser is a great Catholic philosopher who deals with this topic a lot and has done so recently. His books are excellent too.

Thanks, I'll read him.  Have you ever played out the Descartes thought experiment in your head?  So much of what a man believes is based on where he is born, who is parents were, and the atmosphere in which he lives.  Well, what if you took everything off the table and asked yourself what do you really know?  What could you prove beyond a doubt?  The scary thing is that it isn't much.

I've got an 4 year degree in Philosophy; one of the 6 month courses I did was on Descartes Meditations of First Philosophy, and I have briefly taught this at University level to First Year students as a tutor. So to answer... yes! I've read it, and more. You must realize that Descartes actually did establish more than just what people assume (they stopped at Book II when they read the famous "cogito"). But you must also realize that nobody has really followed his path; neither the Scholastics of today (Thomists who are mostly Catholic) nor the materialists (the Atheists of today) and those in-between. The Cartesian Dualism philosophy is a dead end.

[Probius]

Since you talk about knowing, how can I know there is a God at all?

Because we see existence. Existence is the most surprising thing of all. Not just our own existence, but the existence of anything at all. Modern 20th-century philosophers and scientists agree that existence is fundamentally a paradox for which they cannot account. Existence is the proof of God.

If I show you a coin, and you see one side of the coin, you know there must be another side to the coin. The human intellect cannot conceive a one-sided coin. It's the same way with existence. We see one side of the universe, the material created side. There must be another side. The fact that there is one side means there must be the other side of the coin.

I have tried prayer, with a lot of effort, all I heard was my own inner thought. 

That is too bad. I would say keep trying. If scientists are willing to persist for decades with their "SETI" experiments, then we should have the same kind of persistence with our own efforts. Also the scientists will continually alter the conditions of the experiment, like changing the wavelengths to which they are listening, in order to try every possible way to have a successful result. We too have to keep trying every possible way to create the right condition for successful prayer.

In my own experience, which perhaps is not typical, but I believe is possible for every person, every time that I do my part to pray, God does His part by responding. Returning to the opening topic of this thread, and comparing it to the SETI example, humility is a necessary pre-condition for successful prayer. A proud person trying to prayer is like a SETI scientist listening for sound waves from outer space. Sound waves don't travel through outer space, they only echo within our own small, confined atmosphere. Such are the thoughts of the proud. The grace of God, on the other hand, is not bound by time or space, but it is perceived only by the humble who are tuned to the frequencies of the other world and not to the glorification of themselves.

I understand the coin is a metaphor, however, I can turn the coin over to see another material side.  I can neither perceive nor detect the other spiritual side.

[Probius]

Gravity is a real force which can be measured.

You're moving the goal posts. That wasn't your criteria. Here was your definition: "You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence."

How does gravity qualify?

I'll grant you that, my definition was inadequate.  Reality can be measured, in one way or another.  If you cannot measure a thing, how do you know it's there?

This is called begging the question. You are stating as brute facts something that supports your worldview and then concluding based odd of that. Who says reality can be measured? And we've yet to discuss what counts as reality anyway.

You're a hardline materialist. Edward Feser is a great Catholic philosopher who deals with this topic a lot and has done so recently. His books are excellent too.

Thanks, I'll read him.  Have you ever played out the Descartes thought experiment in your head?  So much of what a man believes is based on where he is born, who is parents were, and the atmosphere in which he lives.  Well, what if you took everything off the table and asked yourself what do you really know?  What could you prove beyond a doubt?  The scary thing is that it isn't much.

I've got an 4 year degree in Philosophy; one of the 6 month courses I did was on Descartes Meditations of First Philosophy, and I have briefly taught this at University level to First Year students as a tutor. So to answer... yes! I've read it, and more. You must realize that Descartes actually did establish more than just what people assume (they stopped at Book II when they read the famous "cogito"). But you must also realize that nobody has really followed his path; neither the Scholastics of today (Thomists who are mostly Catholic) nor the materialists (the Atheists of today) and those in-between. The Cartesian Dualism philosophy is a dead end.

I impressed with your credentials, but I was not asking if you have read Descartes, but rather have you tried taking everything off of your mental table that you cannot prove and then attempt to discover what you can really know.