Is there a proof for the existence of divine/supernatural faith?

[bigbadtrad]

Greg you used the example of St. Marys and showed your analysis is flawed by a lot.

Now you want to use the whole trad base and say 15-20% and ok that's fair and I won't dispute that, I would guess it's around 10-15%  in the US and lower in Ireland, and I don't pretend to know the UK.

The answer goes back to practice of the faith. As I've said I don't know any family praying together, avoiding as much modern entertainment with morally compromising material assiduously that has problems with divorce. It's the people who think they can have their foot in both worlds, or marry someone who they think they can change after marriage.

I was the first person who called out the owner of that forum on her forum when she said she was living with someone and got banned promptly. I don't deny people are hypocrites, but I don't see how that changes how the faith and holding to it the right way doesn't have better results than those who don't.

[Christe Eleison]

I asked 3 Trad Catholics today, two in the UK and one in the USA on his way to work on the LIRR.

They are all 30-40 year Trads my age or some 10 years older so 49-60 years old.  They all estimated between 15 and 20% without any prompting from me.  Pretty consistent.

This includes annulments (which include a legal divorce normally) and separation/abandonment.

Since no meaningful survey has been done and since Traditionalism is a cloudy concept it's impossible to say.  Does someone who married and then became a Trad before getting divorced count?  Do mixed marriages count?  What kinds of annulled marriages count?  Does separation without getting a legal divorce count?

But if the divorce rate really is under 5% then why are those hardline Trads at CathInfo.com forever bitching about feminism.  What problem are they objecting to, and why are Trad men often scared of getting married?

I was lurking a bit on the forum you mentioned above, and I was surprised, saddened to read about immodesty at SSPX chapels.
The thread basically was complaining about how mothers and their daughters dressed immodestly just like in the secular world.
The same thing you would probably see at a Novus Ordo parish. They were complaining about the fact that fathers
are not correcting their daughters and wives. And yes, there is complaining about feminism within Trad circles.

Once when I visited a parish in NYC that had the TLM, I thought it was sad that 2 young ladies were
wearing super short skirts/immodest clothing, but hey they were veiled  I attributed it at the time that it was NYC, after all,
and it was a Novus Ordo parish with the TLM (Novus Ordo Mass at 9:00 AM and the TLM at 10:30 AM or something to that effect)   

But, then I read that you see the same thing in places like Saint Mary's  &  Post Falls   Why, why?

[Christe Eleison]

I always assumed that if you have the Sacraments and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass available on a daily basis, Holy priests, people praying the
Holy Rosary daily like what you have in Saint Mary's or Post Falls that the positive effects would be:

1) Larger families
2) No divorces or very very low divorce rates
3) Children keeping the Faith and passing it down to their children.
4) Increase in sanctity, Faith, Grace, etc.
5) Increase in the desire to be set apart from the world, and that should translate into modest clothing, modest fashions, language, etc.
6) Increase in vocations
7) Increase in Charity toward others.

And from what I have read in different forums, that is not taking place, why is that?

[Christe Eleison]

A couple of years ago I spoke with an older gentleman who raised his children attending SSPX chapels. He was in tears saying that every
single one of them had either completely left the Faith, and the one that still attends Church from time to time it is a Novus Ordo parish,
so he felt like a failure

He claimed that he did everything right, prayed the Holy Rosary daily, his children grew up with other SSPX children, they had a nice
family life, etc. But, the minute that his children went to College in Boston, he lost them....They all bailed on their Faith.

So, the conclusion I arrived at the time is that the culture around us has a huge pull, influence on younger people, and since the Faith
in most western countries, like the US, England, France, Canada, etc. is not a part of every day life like it might be in a Catholic country,
or the way it was 100 years ago. It is easier to jump ship.

I have visited several countries that are considered Catholic, and people celebrate a lot of Catholic feasts as a National Holiday. So,
if the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, the Feast of Saint Joseph, the Feast of Saint Peter and Paul are considered National
Holidays, then maybe that is why you might find more practicing Catholics there, compared to the US, where Hollywood &
sports are the Gods being worshipped 

So, are people more inclined to divorce and commit other mortal sins when everyone around them are doing the same thing, because
the culture is what rules their hearts, instead of the the Faith of their ancestors?

[Christe Eleison]

And if Greg is right regarding high divorce rates in places like Saint Mary's, why is that happening?

How can we as Trads prevent this? We are supposed to be set apart from the world? What is going on?

[Greg]

Greg you used the example of St. Marys and showed your analysis is flawed by a lot.

How so?

When I lived in St. Marys in 1993 is was that high.  I remember being stunned at the number of divorced people.

It was a VERY oddball town back then.  Very odd indeed.

[Christe Eleison]

Greg you used the example of St. Marys and showed your analysis is flawed by a lot.

How so?

When I lived in St. Marys in 1993 is was that high.  I remember being stunned at the number of divorced people.

It was a VERY oddball town back then.  Very odd indeed.

Oddball in what way, can you please give examples? I have never been there.

Do people there go to daily Mass? Do they take advantage of all of the Sacraments frequently? Thanks 

[bigbadtrad]

I always assumed that if you have the Sacraments and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass available on a daily basis, Holy priests, people praying the
Holy Rosary daily like what you have in Saint Mary's or Post Falls that the positive effects would be:

1) Larger families
2) No divorces or very very low divorce rates
3) Children keeping the Faith and passing it down to their children.
4) Increase in sanctity, Faith, Grace, etc.
5) Increase in the desire to be set apart from the world, and that should translate into modest clothing, modest fashions, language, etc.
6) Increase in vocations
7) Increase in Charity toward others.

And from what I have read in different forums, that is not taking place, why is that?

Great questions and from your excellent list I'll tell you why. It's because they aren't following that list. Many people have TVs in their homes, and even worse smart phones which are 10X worse and not for work, but for playing around. They aren't praying as they ought. They think they are saved by osmosis and not by practicing the faith and handing it down.

Basically it's worldliness creeping in and it destroys grace and the continuation of grace in the soul.

That's not to say everyone does this or is included, but it's common and therefore all of the evils of the world creep in.

[Greg]

Oddball in what way, can you please give examples? I have never been there.

Well... there was a Catholic man in town who ordered VHS porn videos and then handed them around to more than half a dozen other men all Catholics.  They were in their late 30s not teenagers.  Several of them took it in turns to order a video by mail, and then hand it round the group in what was literally a brown paper bag.  That was kind of odd.   Kind of porn collusion.  As I remember 3 of them ordered it and 4/5 more borrowed it and passed it along.

I saw the video cassette being handed over and a Catholic chap who was not involved but worked in the convenience store there in St. Mary's told me what was happening.  I was pretty disgusted, not so much by the fact that they watched porn or even ordered porn, but that they were comfortable enough with the idea of doing it that they shared it around in a "circle of trust".  And that they were older men.  Not in their 20s like I was at the time.

I am 99% sure it was in this parking lot where I saw it get handed over.  One guy drove out to meet another at the rendezvous.  It was secret squirrel which is why I was curious and asked what they were up to.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@39.1932734,-96.069755,3a,71.6y,103.65h,85.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZD0jTFMrzliVXeO1NZMlbg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There was a great deal of suspicion and rancor between various factions in the town.  Trad v Trad not Trad v non-Catholic townies.  You definitely got the impression that there were a lot of angry and unstable people there.

Someone shot a bullet or two into Father Rizzo's house while I was there (nearby not in his house at the time).  That was pretty odd, shooting up a Trad priest's house.  I think the bullet passed through the house as they are made of plastic siding and insulation.

I have a few more odd stories, but these are 3 to begin with.

[Christe Eleison]

I always assumed that if you have the Sacraments and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass available on a daily basis, Holy priests, people praying the
Holy Rosary daily like what you have in Saint Mary's or Post Falls that the positive effects would be:

1) Larger families
2) No divorces or very very low divorce rates
3) Children keeping the Faith and passing it down to their children.
4) Increase in sanctity, Faith, Grace, etc.
5) Increase in the desire to be set apart from the world, and that should translate into modest clothing, modest fashions, language, etc.
6) Increase in vocations
7) Increase in Charity toward others.

And from what I have read in different forums, that is not taking place, why is that?

Great questions and from your excellent list I'll tell you why. It's because they aren't following that list. Many people have TVs in their homes, and even worse smart phones which are 10X worse and not for work, but for playing around. They aren't praying as they ought. They think they are saved by osmosis and not by practicing the faith and handing it down.

Basically it's worldliness creeping in and it destroys grace and the continuation of grace in the soul.

That's not to say everyone does this or is included, but it's common and therefore all of the evils of the world creep in.

Thanks for the honest & informative post. I appreciate it. I had a bad feeling that was the case.
But I wanted confirmation from someone with first hand experience.

Someone else mentioned to me how when they went to Post Falls, people were not really attending daily Mass.
Sometimes even missing Mass on Sundays as well. And that they were surprised & saddened by it.

So, we all complain and cry about not having the TLM in our towns, cities, etc. And when we do have it, we take it for granted   

I heard a Trad Priest mention how parents should NOT give their children smart phones or have some form of control over them.
That the computer should be in a central location with a secret password (only to be had by the Lady of the house)

Basically, this Priest knew by the confessions that he heard that evil was penetrating their homes via the smart phones, easy
access to the internet, TV, etc. And it was destroying families, the Faith, Grace, etc.

And the Faith needs to be nourished or else like you said, the worldliness creeps in. Destroying Grace, game over...
Thank you for your honesty. God bless 

[Christe Eleison]

Oddball in what way, can you please give examples? I have never been there.

Well... there was a Catholic man in town who ordered VHS porn videos and then handed them around to more than half a dozen other men all Catholics.  They were in their late 30s not teenagers.  Several of them took it in turns to order a video by mail, and then hand it round the group in what was literally a brown paper bag.  That was kind of odd.   Kind of porn collusion.  As I remember 3 of them ordered it and 4/5 more borrowed it and passed it along.

I saw the video cassette being handed over and a Catholic chap who was not involved but worked in the convenience store there in St. Mary's told me what was happening.  I was pretty disgusted, not so much by the fact that they watched porn or even ordered porn, but that they were comfortable enough with the idea of doing it that they shared it around in a "circle of trust".  And that they were older men.  Not in their 20s like I was at the time.

I am 99% sure it was in this parking lot where I saw it get handed over.  One guy drove out to meet another at the rendezvous.  It was secret squirrel which is why I was curious and asked what they were up to.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@39.1932734,-96.069755,3a,71.6y,103.65h,85.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZD0jTFMrzliVXeO1NZMlbg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There was a great deal of suspicion and rancor between various factions in the town.  Trad v Trad not Trad v non-Catholic townies.  You definitely got the impression that there were a lot of angry and unstable people there.

Someone shot a bullet or two into Father Rizzo's house while I was there (nearby not in his house at the time).  That was pretty odd, shooting up a Trad priest's house.  I think the bullet passed through the house as they are made of plastic siding and insulation.

I have a few more odd stories, but these are 3 to begin with.

Greg, I thank you for giving me a better picture. I appreciate it.

I am sorry that you had to see this as a 20 something year old man. Especially since the men involved were older & most likely married. How disgusting.
What a disappointment. They obviously caused scandal and others to sin. How sad.
And this might explain the divorces in the area as well.   

I wonder if the people who got divorced there obtained annulments & remarried in the area?

Why was there suspicion & rancor between Trads?

I would appreciate more stories about the area, when you get the chance.

Thank you & God bless 

[Greg]

I'm on a computer for most of the day.

I get nearly all my work done like that apart from seeing people which I do on average once or twice per week.  But I only do that when there is money on the table.  Otherwise web meetings (and I don't even have a video camera because I am a luddite)

Last Friday I had to drive to Birmingham (after an 11 hour flight back from India).  With traffic it was a 8 hour round trip with 75 mins at the clients office.  Painful and tiring as hell.  Necessary because the company owner (guy with the money) wanted to meet my firm and I am the face of it).  For 500,000 USD I will meet someone and waste a day on the roads.

Everyone intelligent is using computers to do business today.  You cannot work in professional office jobs without using one.

Any priest who says computers are bad is very soon going to have a bunch of very poor unemployed parishioners, because right now major businesses are working on reducing their operational costs.

Remember the Catholic Church also wanted the printed Bible banned.  How did that work out?

Work for ToysRUs, Walmart or any major retailer or you're a picker for Amazon or a cab driver?  Better start considering a career change because your job is going to be done be a computer before too long.

People are going to need to learn how to handle mobile phones and computers and not be sucked into lots of unhealthy and time wasting pursuits.  There's no way to avoid these technologies and make a decent living in most cases.

[Greg]

I am sorry that you had to see this as a 20 something year old man. Especially since the men involved were older & most likely married. How disgusting.

Don't be sorry.  Worse things happen at sea.

They were all married/divorced.

I think single men buy their own porn.  Sharing it is weird.

Anyway it is all free now, (so I am told).

I wonder if the people who got divorced there obtained annulments & remarried in the area?

As far as I could tell no.  The either moved to SM to get away from their past or escaped SM to begin their future.  It was a gossipy kind of place.  Because I knew the convenience store guy very well I got the inside track on a lot of stuff whether I wanted to know or not.

Why was there suspicion & rancor between Trads?

A lot of it was over jobs, there were two place worth working in town, a stone carving place and TRA.  Then there were cliques of Trads just like there are on-line.  CathInfo type trads and SD type Trads and probably a few Fisheater types too, but not many.

A lot of people were kind of poor, economically stretched and bitter about it.  That seemed to be a common trait.

I would appreciate more stories about the area, when you get the chance.

It was 25 years ago.  It might have changed since.

[Christe Eleison]

I'm on a computer for most of the day.

I get nearly all my work done like that apart from seeing people which I do on average once or twice per week.  But I only do that when there is money on the table.  Otherwise web meetings (and I don't even have a video camera because I am a luddite)

Last Friday I had to drive to Birmingham (after an 11 hour flight back from India).  With traffic it was a 8 hour round trip with 75 mins at the clients office.  Painful and tiring as hell.  Necessary because the company owner (guy with the money) wanted to meet my firm and I am the face of it).  For 500,000 USD I will meet someone and waste a day on the roads.

Everyone intelligent is using computers to do business today.  You cannot work in professional office jobs without using one.

Any priest who says computers are bad is very soon going to have a bunch of very poor unemployed parishioners, because right now major businesses are working on reducing their operational costs.

Remember the Catholic Church also wanted the printed Bible banned.  How did that work out?

Work for ToysRUs, Walmart or any major retailer or you're a picker for Amazon or a cab driver?  Better start considering a career change because your job is going to be done be a computer before too long.

People are going to need to learn how to handle mobile phones and computers and not be sucked into lots of unhealthy and time wasting pursuits.  There's no way to avoid these technologies and make a decent living in most cases.

I agree & understand everything you are saying. The sermon is several years old, and things have advanced,
changed at such a fast pace.
I do not know what this particular prest would say today, considering that people need to make a living, especially a man/father
of a large Trad family. And it is certainly harder today to avoid computers than ever before.

I am sure that this priest was just concerned about hearing of the same sins over & over in the confessional & thought it was best
to avoid the use of such devices, at least until their character was better formed. And some level of maturity is reached.

But, then look at the example of what you witnessed in Saint Mary's. They were older & most likely married  men 
It truly boils down to character, solid catechesis, strong families, a strong moral father figure, Faith, Grace, etc.

If a married man/father is involved with something like that, what can you expect his sons to be like? 

Thanks & God bless, Greg.

[Michael Wilson]

I spoke to one of my nephews today, and he estimated that the divorce rate among trads (including N.O. "Annulments/divorces) is around 10%.
There are irresponsible husbands/fathers in trad circles; but also good Catholic families; I wish I could say it was 100%, but sadly that is not the case. The town is not so crazy as Greg remembers it once was; I think that is because of the number of trads that have moved into town from other parts, and the SSPX superiors have been good about playing down that aspect of traditionalism.