Why should faithless Catholics believe the Church?

Started by Daniel, March 14, 2018, 09:00:21 AM

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Daniel

The veracity of the Catholic religion/philosophy cannot be known through reasoning. It requires faith. But suppose a Catholic doesn't have faith. He has no way of knowing that the Catholic religion/philosophy is right. For all he knows, the Catholic religion could be wrong and some other religion/philosophy might be right.

I am wondering, why is this particular Catholic still bound to obey the Church's laws and to believe the Church's dogmas? Why is he even bound to adore God as Trinity, for that matter? (Keep in mind, we're talking only about Catholics who don't have faith. Such a Catholic might have an opinion on whether or not the Church is from God, but he cannot know with any level of certainty.)

It seems that to worship Christ, without faith, would be imprudent on this person's part. Because for all he knows, Christ is not God. To worship Christ, while not knowing that Christ is God, is to risk committing idolatry.

Likewise, to commit oneself to believing the Church's dogmas, while not knowing them to be true, seems to be a sin against reason and against Truth. I know that St. Augustine argues that belief, in general, is not irrational, and that skepticism is wrong. So I can see why it's wrong to suspend all belief in all things unknown. But this still doesn't explain how to know what to believe. Suppose the Catholics and the Jews and the Mahometans and the Buddhists are all claiming to be right. How is the man to know to believe the Catholics rather than any of the others? To blindly commit oneself to the Jewish religion, or to the Mahometan religion, or to the Buddhist religion, without any proof, is clearly unreasonable. It follows that to blindly commit oneself to the Catholic religion, without any proof, is equally unreasonable? Yet none of these religions, including Catholicism, offer any definitive proof. Evidence, but no proof. (And again, this person doesn't have faith.)

Anyone have any answers or thoughts?

Vetus Ordo

Faith is a gift from God and there's really no other way of explaining it.

There is good evidence for Christ and the Scriptures, and there is good evidence for the Church, but ultimately what leads you to belief and what maintains you in that belief is grace. Christianity is not a philosophy to be discussed but a revelation from God to a dead and corrupt humanity. Only those who are spiritually regenerated are able to believe, the same way only a living body is able to walk.

Quote from: Daniel on March 14, 2018, 09:00:21 AM
Likewise, to commit oneself to believing the Church's dogmas, while not knowing them to be true, seems to be a sin against reason and against Truth.

In fact, it's the opposite.

You are personally bound to your baptismal promises. The Church requires you to believe that which is taught, even if you don't understand it or know it for a fact to be true.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Daniel

#2
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 14, 2018, 12:36:53 PM
Christianity is not a philosophy to be discussed but a revelation from God to a dead and corrupt humanity. Only those who are spiritually regenerated are able to believe, the same way only a living body is able to walk.
Thank you. Can't believe I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 14, 2018, 12:36:53 PM
You are personally bound to your baptismal promises. The Church requires you to believe that which is taught, even if you don't understand it or know it for a fact to be true.
But suppose, hypothetically, that the Church is not from God. Then the Church's authority is illusory, and the man is not bound to keep his baptismal vow any more than he's bound to keep some vow that he may have made in any of the false religions. Yet he is always bound to obey God, who commands him to seek after Truth and to worship rightly. Not to commit himself to a belief which may or may not be true, and which, for all he knows, may be an obstacle to Truth.

I do see that there is a huge amount of evidence to back up the Church's claims. But even at that, there's no certainty. A man who believes in the Church because he is 99% sure is far less unreasonable than a man who believes the Church but is only 30% sure. But in both cases the man is taking a risk. Yet there's no way out. To be cautious is to certainly disobey the Church, which most probably is from God. So I suppose once his belief hits around 50%, he has no choice but to take the gamble. He must commit to the Church, while continually examining and re-examining the evidence, until God gives him faith.

Tales

Maybe I am confused, but I thought the Church's teachings are for every human being?  All are called to obey.

As for evidence, when as an atheist I was presented with the evidence, I found it quite overwhelming and very persuasive.  The case for the Catholic Church as that established by Christ is easy (barring the Catholic / Orthodox split).  The case for Christ comes from the miracles - the Church has documented miracles over the millennia, and if something divinely special is not going on there, then we are left to assume that these people have been lying despite believing that could damn their souls.  Or perhaps they are all morons, yet when I read the works of those across the ages, they seem to be head and shoulders above your average modern college "educated" peasant.

There are also other secondary pieces of evidence that help indicate that the Church is something special.  Consider the rapidity with which it spread, the beautiful civilization of Christendom it built up, and the horrible state it morphed into (the West) as secularism took over.  Look at how ugly our godless decivilized world is today.  Look at the life of the saints, or even just a "good" Catholic (not cafeteria Catholic), and compare that to what false religions like leftism and atheism (yes those are religions) have brought about in their populace.

For me, I also know an atheist-turned-Catholic who received multiple extended visions from Jesus and Mary.  He is one of the most fiercely intelligent men I know.  If this is all bogus, then I am left to think he is a liar or a fool.

Boston64

Don't think ..do . Isn't that why we have priests?

Once someone commits to follow the Church's teaching and works at it ,faith will follow. The more you do Gods work the more open and clearer the path between you and God becomes.
That's what I'm led to believe anyway.

Daniel

Quote from: Davis Blank - EG on March 15, 2018, 12:57:58 AM
Maybe I am confused, but I thought the Church's teachings are for every human being?  All are called to obey.
It depends upon whether the teaching pertains to nature or to revelation. The natural law is knowable to all men, so it applies to all men. But revelation is knowable only to those who have faith, so I am pretty sure that it does not bind the faithless. Not that it really makes much difference, since if you die without faith then you'll be damned regardless.