My list of evidence pro-Orthodoxy

[Livenotonevil]

I'm no longer engaged in this discussion.

That makes two of us.  For my part, I'm just tired of the insults, especially all the personally directed ones.

It's frustrating for me too - I don't want to personally be Orthodox!

But it's what God wants; and if I am wrong, I hope He brings me back. At the beginning of this journey, I simply asked Christ "Lord, lead me to Your Church, not what I want, but what You want," and all I can do is trust in Him.

In addition to my own aesthetic and historical preferences, it is annoying when one has a very spiritual experience within Roman Catholicism, and it's tempting to rule out objective fact based on your own experiences.

And I apologize for the insult on my behalf. It was immature for me, and I am frustrated.

Gospodi Pomiluj!

[mikemac]

I'm no longer engaged in this discussion.

That makes two of us.  For my part, I'm just tired of the insults, especially all the personally directed ones.

That's why I said bring out the confetti.  I thought the tread was finished.

[Gardener]

I'm no longer engaged in this discussion.

That makes two of us.  For my part, I'm just tired of the insults, especially all the personally directed ones.

It's frustrating for me too - I don't want to personally be Orthodox!

But it's what God wants; and if I am wrong, I hope He brings me back. At the beginning of this journey, I simply asked Christ "Lord, lead me to Your Church, not what I want, but what You want," and all I can do is trust in Him.

In addition to my own aesthetic and historical preferences, it is annoying when one has a very spiritual experience within Roman Catholicism, and it's tempting to rule out objective fact based on your own experiences.

And I apologize for the insult on my behalf. It was immature for me, and I am frustrated.

Gospodi Pomiluj!

So... I did the same thing, and left Protestantism for Catholicism. Which one of us is wrong, or both of us? Is the Holy Spirit a sower of chaos?

For me, I could plainly read what Our Lord was teaching in Matthew 19: No divorce and remarriage. I had to find the Church which adhered to it, and in fact and not just lip service w/ sophistry to back it up.

Yet, in your own provided Orthodox sources, they allow that very thing 3x, and for reasons far greater than even a liberal understanding of the very strict words of Christ re: adultery/fornication/etc.

It could be that the Catholic Church makes a distinction on annulments which the Fathers would have just labeled Divorce, but that would be resultant from a phenomenological understanding of marriage/divorce on the part of the Fathers.

And, weren't you Catholic? If so, you already demonstrated a lack of Faith by praying to be led to His Church while a member of it. Did you ever ask to be given a spirit of humility and thus docility towards paradox and understanding how to approach more thorny situations or even an apparent Pope who makes Billy Graham look like Pius X?

One wonders...

[Miriam_M]

And I apologize for the insult on my behalf. It was immature for me, and I am frustrated.

Apology accepted.

[Vetus Ordo]

It's frustrating for me too - I don't want to personally be Orthodox!

Then, don't be.

[ÆneasQuébécois]

It's frustrating for me too - I don't want to personally be Orthodox!

Then, don't be.

In fairness to LNOE, truth is true whether one wants it or not.

[martin88nyc]

It's frustrating for me too - I don't want to personally be Orthodox!

Then, don't be.

In fairness to LNOE, truth is true whether one wants it or not.

And God doesn't lead you by the hand. You need to use your intellect more than your heart. Because if we follow this logic then I could easily become a pentecostal.

[Kephapaulos]

The SSPX are not in communion with Rome because they don't accept what was dogmatically put forward in Vatican II. And they are schismatic, according to Pope Benedict, because they don't accept Vatican II.

Not accepting Vatican II and not accepting dogmas that were put forward are two different things. Pope Benedict also said, as I mentioned above, that Vatican II was a pastoral council.

Some may also argue Vatican II to be an invalid council.

I like Fr. Hesse but that theory is pretty silly.

There must be at least truth to it in regard to the heresy and error that can be found in the Council as well as their tone and the manner in which the Council ended up being carried out.

[Livenotonevil]

I'm no longer engaged in this discussion.

That makes two of us.  For my part, I'm just tired of the insults, especially all the personally directed ones.

It's frustrating for me too - I don't want to personally be Orthodox!

But it's what God wants; and if I am wrong, I hope He brings me back. At the beginning of this journey, I simply asked Christ "Lord, lead me to Your Church, not what I want, but what You want," and all I can do is trust in Him.

In addition to my own aesthetic and historical preferences, it is annoying when one has a very spiritual experience within Roman Catholicism, and it's tempting to rule out objective fact based on your own experiences.

And I apologize for the insult on my behalf. It was immature for me, and I am frustrated.

Gospodi Pomiluj!

So... I did the same thing, and left Protestantism for Catholicism. Which one of us is wrong, or both of us? Is the Holy Spirit a sower of chaos?

For me, I could plainly read what Our Lord was teaching in Matthew 19: No divorce and remarriage. I had to find the Church which adhered to it, and in fact and not just lip service w/ sophistry to back it up.

Yet, in your own provided Orthodox sources, they allow that very thing 3x, and for reasons far greater than even a liberal understanding of the very strict words of Christ re: adultery/fornication/etc.

It could be that the Catholic Church makes a distinction on annulments which the Fathers would have just labeled Divorce, but that would be resultant from a phenomenological understanding of marriage/divorce on the part of the Fathers.

And, weren't you Catholic? If so, you already demonstrated a lack of Faith by praying to be led to His Church while a member of it. Did you ever ask to be given a spirit of humility and thus docility towards paradox and understanding how to approach more thorny situations or even an apparent Pope who makes Billy Graham look like Pius X?

One wonders...

The truth is one of us is wrong.

And you anticipate your own conclusion your own conclusion by holding two premises which aren't true:
1. Divorce and contraception is seen as morally acceptable in Orthodoxy.
2. Christ's words in one version of the Bible verse prohibit divorce in all circumstances, except He allows it in the form of stating the marriage never happened.

For number one, these two things - including even Natural Family Planning (which IS contraception) - are IMMORAL. However, circumstances arise where OUT OF LOVE FOR THE OTHER PERSON'S WELL BEING, these things MAY be allowed.

For example, say a woman has a physical problem where she needs birth control, otherwise it would cause the deterioration of health over time; the .Church would allow birth control in this circumstance.

Should it be prohibited then, because birth control is immoral? Circumstances like this arise when birth control is necessary for the person's survival.

And, as previously stated, at least the Orthodox priests don't encourage sterile sex in the form of NFP (which both Saint Augustine and Saint Clement of Alexandria condemn by the way). Who are more ascetic, Catholics or Orthodox?

As for divorce, we already had this discussion; certain circumstances arise where for the person's well being it is permitted, and you anticipate your own conclusion by believing that Christ saying these things means that marriages can't be separated unless via annulment.

I encourage you to read Luke 1:1-6


And for your final comment, I can respond with two things:

1. Praying to be led to the true Church that you already believe to be the true Church is a fruitless prayer, because you - as I accused you of doing - anticipate your own answer. That's like if I was a Protestant heretic who subscribed to the prosperity gospel, and I said "Lord, I don't know if the prosperity gospel is right, but please allow me to make other people rich."

I asked God "lead me to the True Church," not "let me remain a member of the True Church."

2. I think you're accusing me of leaving the Roman Catholic Church because of the horrendous situation its in - and that isn't the case; my conscience would feel violated if I did that (although I do think some people join Orthodoxy because of it). Like I said, I would be a pro-FSSP Catholic - and possibly SSPX (although probably the former; I would have to do a lot of research and prayer about the lictness of the Novus Ordo and what Catholics - pre-Vatican II - believed about the doctrinal nature of liturgy) - if I had the choice, because I love Western liturgical tradition way more and some Catholic saints are really interesting.

My determination is based on historical fact, in that from my research thus far I am unconvinced that the Pope had universal jurisdiction and papal infallibility pre-schism.

While certainly I believe that the crisis has made me question my Roman Catholic faith - and this isn't the first time this has happened (I went through a phase where I looked into Lutheranism [LCMS] and even LDS Mormonism before), but I ruled out how flawed logically these churches are in their existence.

[Gardener]

I did not believe the Catholic Church to be the True Church, so I have no idea where you get this and thus your argument falls on its face. As a devoted Protestant, raised as such from birth, I was virulently anti-Catholic, in the same vein as Jack Chick -- I was not raised anti-Catholic, I came upon that by my own reading of Protestant polemics. When I was in the Army, having basically apostatized from Protestantism, our Battalion Chaplain was a Catholic Priest and I despised him, as he was, in my eyes, an awful Chaplain. Having now converted, I maintain that view of him.

Example 1: we had 4 guys from my platoon killed. He came by our living area just after we found out. As we were all literally wailing on hands and knees, rolling on the ground in the agony of 1/6th of our platoon being blown to bits (massive IED that went off underneath a humvee), he simply said, "if any of you want to talk with me, I'll be in my office." That still gets my blood boiling.

Example 2: "National day of prayer" rolls around. Have an early morning patrol, so myself and platoon medic walk to get breakfast before we go out. Chaplain had given the order that no one was to be served breakfast unless they participated in his event which was being held in the dining area. I'm standing there arguing with the cooks and trying to get food, about to go out on a patrol which could end up running 24 freaking hours depending on the way things went, and some jackass Captain is gonna make a rule like that? Oh hell no. Such a man is worthy of neither the rank or the collar.

When I first discovered Ann Barnhardt's blog, I remember specifically thinking, "This woman is so right on politics and stuff. Too bad she's gonna go to hell, being subject to the Whore of Babylon."

Do you wish to tell me again how I had a preconceived notion of the True Church? No, I fought my way in, kicking and screaming. But in the end, Orthodoxy made no sense and as much as I honestly tried to disprove the Catholic Church, I could not. Her history was too solid. Her consistency too strong. Her lack of ethno-centric appeal was too obvious. She is the Bride of Christ. Wrestle as I might, my hip would not stay in socket. I became spiritually invalid from kicking against the goads, and could only rest in the infirmary of the one against whom I fought.

Do you wish to tell me again how I had a preconceived notion of the True Church? Because my day is very boring and I'd love the comedy.

[Jayne]

I did not believe the Catholic Church to be the True Church, so I have no idea where you get this and thus your argument falls on its face.

I also came to the Catholic Church with no preconceived idea that it was the True Church.  I was raised Jewish and became Fundamentalist Protestant at 16 years of age.  I too was taught to be anti-Catholic and given Jack Chick pamphlets. 

One cannot explain away Catholicism as merely something that people get brainwashed into.

[Livenotonevil]

I wouldn't doubt that you legitimately believe that the Roman Catholic Church to be the True Church - especially given your experiences - but nonetheless, I was pointing out how flawed your divorce argument is, because the way in which you interpreted the morality of divorce in light of Christ's words on the subject is very much a Roman Catholic idea, and with such an argument, you anticipate the conclusion of Roman Catholicism being the answer.

The same thing can be done with Orthodoxy (and it has been done):

"Saint Paul said that Christ is the Head of the Church, and to say that the Pope is the visible head or a Vicar of Christ clearly contradicts this idea. Therefore, Orthodoxy must be True."

This argument is contingent on an Orthodox premise; that is, "it is impossible to have a visible head of the Church or a Vicar of Christ" is an Orthodox idea which Roman Catholics don't accept, so to put forth this argument is to anticipate Orthodoxy being True.

Surely there muse be other reasons why you chose Roman Catholicism than one flawed argument, correct? It is probably the biggest decision of your life - as your eternal soul may depend on it.

And I think the ethno-centrist argument is rather flawed too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National_Catholic_Church

- All of these movements were done with a Roman Catholic ethnic identity. Just because there are separate Churches within Orthodoxy doesn't make it a "nationalistic church" any more than the Roman Catholic Church has served in these nationalist movements and the continued nationalism of the countries mentioned (Croatia, Ireland, Italy, Poland, etc.)

Not to mention the Roman Catholic communion has SEVERAL churches which are just as "national-centrist" as the Orthodox Churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melkite_Greek_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Maronite_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_Greek_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_Greek_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Catholic_Church_of_Croatia_and_Serbia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Greek_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Greek_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Greek_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Byzantine_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eritrean_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Greek_Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Byzantine-Catholic_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Catholic_Church

What didn't make sense about Orthodoxy aside from these things, may I ask? Because these couple of things to me are weak arguments, the latter especially in light of Christian history.

Whether or not you subscribe to the Pentarchy, historically, the Christian Church had so much variety in their cultures, rites, and liturgical languages, even in the West - for example, the Celtic liturgy didn't even have candles on their altar, up until the Roman liturgy gradually took it over. In fact, a lot of people at the time didn't like Saint Cuthbert and Saint Wilfrid, because they essentially allowed Roman liturgical norms to take over the Celtic liturgical norms.

Even the East as well, and admittedly, the Byzantine Empire is just as guilty as Rome in homogenizing the liturgical and cultural practices - the Antiochian Liturgy, before they were induced by Constantinople to adopt the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, was much more distinguished.

And even more years later, when (after the Great Schism) the Russian Church was forced to homogenize with the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church, which led to a schism which continues to this day
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

It's ashame that these cultural treasures were lost, and the expressions of the same Faith over time were gradually eroded due to our gradual decrease in morality.

[bigbadtrad]

For example, say a woman has a physical problem where she needs birth control, otherwise it would cause the deterioration of health over time; the .Church would allow birth control in this circumstance.

Should it be prohibited then, because birth control is immoral? Circumstances like this arise when birth control is necessary for the person's survival.

And, as previously stated, at least the Orthodox priests don't encourage sterile sex in the form of NFP (which both Saint Augustine and Saint Clement of Alexandria condemn by the way). Who are more ascetic, Catholics or Orthodox?

This is just not true. Contraception is permitted. To use the example of the person is a game I've seen where they think of the worst case scenario to justify what is obvious trying to get you to their side first. First you should just say contraception is wrong, then you should admit the use of contraceptives is fully approved and not just in the case of a woman's health and the Orthodox condone the use of contraception, not medicine. Contraception and conception are 2 different things, and medicinal purposes have nothing to do with the argument.

Barrier contraception is permitted and has nothing to do with a woman's health.

So admit the principle, contraception is wicked, and apply it to your religion.

[Livenotonevil]

For example, say a woman has a physical problem where she needs birth control, otherwise it would cause the deterioration of health over time; the .Church would allow birth control in this circumstance.

Should it be prohibited then, because birth control is immoral? Circumstances like this arise when birth control is necessary for the person's survival.

And, as previously stated, at least the Orthodox priests don't encourage sterile sex in the form of NFP (which both Saint Augustine and Saint Clement of Alexandria condemn by the way). Who are more ascetic, Catholics or Orthodox?

This is just not true. Contraception is permitted. To use the example of the person is a game I've seen where they think of the worst case scenario to justify what is obvious trying to get you to their side first. First you should just say contraception is wrong, then you should admit the use of contraceptives is fully approved and not just in the case of a woman's health and the Orthodox condone the use of contraception, not medicine. Contraception and conception are 2 different things, and medicinal purposes have nothing to do with the argument.

Barrier contraception is permitted and has nothing to do with a woman's health.

So admit the principle, contraception is wicked, and apply it to your religion.

https://oca.org/holy-synod/encyclicals/on-marriage

Most people misrepresent the position of the Orthodox Church on contraception.

H. Birth Control
1. The greatest miracle and blessing of the divinely sanctified love of marriage is the procreation of children, and to avoid this by the practice of birth control (or, more accurately, the prevention of conception) is against God's will for marriage.

The love of God has been manifested in His loving creation of the world, and the divinely sanctified love of marriage -a love filled with the life-creating Spirit-brings forth the fruit of children, to be cared for by parents as the greatest of God's gifts - the gift of life.

The Marriage Service establishes an inseparable link between marriage and the begetting of children. In the litanies, petitions asking for the procreation of fair children immediately follow those invoking a blessing upon the couple being joined in the community of marriage. The same relationship is expressed in all three of the great prayers of the Service. Thus we pray: Give them offspring in number like unto full ears of grain, so that having enough of all things, they may abound in every work that is good and acceptable unto Thee. Let them see their children's children, like olive shoots around their table, so that finding favor in Thy sight, they may shine like stars of heaven, in Thee our God.

Orthodox Christians must not allow themselves to be manipulated by the abstract calculations of statisticians regarding such matters as the population explosion and the need for birth control and family planning. The Church is aware of the complexities which can arise in life due to social, medical and economic problems, but she still affirms that statistics do not reflect God's loving and providential care and inconceivable manner of bringing about the salvation of the world. Preoccupation with statistics can depersonalize us and our co-creativity with God in the begetting of children. The goal of the Christian life is the accomplishment of God's will, which may involve the begetting of children.
2. In all the difficult decisions involving the practice of birth control, Orthodox families must live under the guidance of the pastors of the Church and ask daily for the mercy and forgiveness of God.
Orthodox husbands and wives must discuss the prevention of conception in the light of the circumstances of their own personal lives, having in mind always the normal relationship between the divinely sanctified love of marriage and the begetting of children. Conception control of any sort motivated by selfishness or lack of trust in God's providential care certainly cannot be condoned.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12279632

Contraception can only be allowed with the approval of the priest, and only in certain circumstances.

http://www.roca.org/OA/155-156/155h.htm

[bigbadtrad]

Contraception can only be allowed with the approval of the priest, and only in certain circumstances.

So God, tradition, the universal history of the faith can be thrown out because you spoke to a priest?

From your own site: "This teaching of our Church, however, should not be construed as being the same kind of teaching as is found in the Roman Catholic Church. The consistent teaching of the Church of Rome has been and is that having children is the primary function of marriage. This is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church."
http://www.roca.org/OA/155-156/155h.htm

Continuing it reads:
"2. A limitation on sexual relations. This of course already happens with the Orthodox couple that sincerely tries to observe fully all of the fast days and fasting periods of the year.

3. Finally, the Church allows the use of the so-called "rhythm" or the more recently developed Natural Family Planning method, about which ample information is available today."

Do you condemn this as contraception too? Funny you quote this article.

I want to add that the article given was by ROCA or ROCOR which is the traditionalist wing of the Orthodox. Do you attend a ROCOR church or do you just quote them on a trad board? My guess is you don't since they barely exist with only 9,000 active members in the US.

In fact the majority of Orthodox agree to barrier methods and oral contraceptives. You forgot to mention that part.