Neanderthal DNA

[Optatus]

So a while back I took one of those DNA tests. One of the things it tells you (or at least the service that I used does) is your percentage of neanderthal DNA. Needless to say, my results seem to indicate that a not inconsiderable portion of my DNA has been inherited from neanderthals, and this is apparently normal for virtually everyone of non-African ancestry.

I've been thinking about this for a while. We're now being told by the eggheads that neanderthals and humans almost certainly "intermarried" in prehistory. My question is: how does one square this with the teaching that we are descended from Adam, and from Noe after him? Is there some sort of interpretation of Scripture which might allow us to accommodate this notion, or is it something that is purely false and must be rejected?

[Perpetua]

I'm also doing DNA genealogy and am wondering the same. I don't use the results from more than 500 years ago though, since I can't by my own genealogical research go beyond that timeframe. And if I can't do that, I can't trust and believe these tests that tell you of your heritage ten thousands of years back in time. I don't believe that God created any humans other than our present human species. If there did exist other human species, like the neanderthals, I wouldn't call them humans and I don't believe we are descended or intermixed with them.

[St.Justin]

GENESIS - Chapter 6

[Maximilian]

GENESIS - Chapter 6

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6&version=DRA

Genesis 6:

1 And after that men began to be multiplied upon the earth, and daughters were born to them,
2 The sons of God seeing the daughters of men, that they were fair, took to themselves wives of all which they chose.
3 And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
4 Now giants were upon the earth in those days. For after the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown.

[Daniel]

Yeah, neanderthals would be descended from Adam but not from Noe.

[Perpetua]

How does the Church interpret those passages? Sons of God vs men? The giants?

[Daniel]

How does the Church interpret those passages? Sons of God vs men? The giants?

I think it's as Challoner explains:

The descendants of Seth and Enos are here called sons of God from their religion and piety: whereas the ungodly race of Cain, who by their carnal affections lay grovelling upon the earth, are called the children of men. The unhappy consequence of the former marrying with the latter, ought to be a warning to Christians to be very circumspect in their marriages; and not to suffer themselves to be determined in their choice by their carnal passion, to the prejudice of virtue or religion.
. . .
It is likely the generality of men before the flood were of a gigantic stature in comparison with what men now are. But these here spoken of are called giants, as being not only tall in stature, but violent and savage in their dispositions, and mere monsters of cruelty and lust.

But there are also some people these days who say that the "giants" were human/demon hybrids. This interpretation comes from one of the Church Fathers (I forget who... maybe Origen?). But as far as I know, this was never the mainstream view. And the Church may have explicitly rejected it (I really don't know).

But the interpretation that Challoner provides does not seem incompatible with the idea that these "giants" were neanderthals. However, it is incompatible with the idea that some descendants of Noe would have neanderthal DNA while others would not.
edit - On second thought, no it's not incompatible. It's possible that Japheth's wife and/or Sem's wife were Neanderthal (at least part Neanderthal), in which case many/all people of non-African descent would be part neanderthal.
edit - Then again, this would imply that Japheth and/or Sem had entered into a mixed marriage, which doesn't seem all that fitting. So I don;t know.

[mikemac]

No, most of the Church Fathers believed the giants of Genesis 6 were fallen angel/human hybrids.  And the Church didn't reject this.  We simply do not know for sure.

[Ultimate Hypocrite]

Yeah, neanderthals would be descended from Adam but not from Noe.

I was just about to say, couldn't neanderthals techincally be considered "Human"?

[John Lamb]

We're now being told by the eggheads that neanderthals and humans almost certainly "intermarried" in prehistory. My question is: how does one square this with the teaching that we are descended from Adam, and from Noe after him?

Neanderthals were humans descended from Adam & Noah, just as Scandinavians and Germans are today. They look different to us for the same reasons that Europeans, Africans, and Asians look different from one and other.

Also, weren't neanderthals stronger and more intelligent than modern men?

[Daniel]

Also, weren't neanderthals stronger and more intelligent than modern men?

Well, the average modern man is not too bright, lol

[Optatus]

We're now being told by the eggheads that neanderthals and humans almost certainly "intermarried" in prehistory. My question is: how does one square this with the teaching that we are descended from Adam, and from Noe after him?

Neanderthals were humans descended from Adam & Noah, just as Scandinavians and Germans are today. They look different to us for the same reasons that Europeans, Africans, and Asians look different from one and other.

Also, weren't neanderthals stronger and more intelligent than modern men?

I don't believe so, no. Stronger, maybe, and seemingly hardier than we are, but certainly not more intelligent. It's uncertain as to whether or not they even had a proper language given that their vocal chords, based on archeological evidence, are significantly less developed and less complex than our own. They did bury their dead, however, and were able to make simple tools which makes me think St. Thomas Aquinas would classify them as rational souls. What do you think?

Anyhow, I did think about the sons of God/Nephilim/Giants idea that was mentioned earlier in the thread - although my interpretation has always been that these were fallen angels as mikemac said. But if we take this to be a reference to neanderthals, what are we to make of the idea that Noe "was perfect in his generations"? I've always thought of this verse (Gen 6:9) as having a dual meaning: Noe was righteous, unlike others of his time, but his ancestry was also uncorrupted by the intermarriage between the sons of God and the daughters of men. If the latter is true, and we are to understand the Sons of God as a reference to neanderthals, then how could there still be a genetic legacy from neanderthals in modern humans? Wouldn't they all have been wiped out in the Flood?

[Quaremerepulisti]

Of course we have the usual gratuitous contemptuous dig at an entire group of people (scientists) ("eggheads") and the usual ignorant peremptory dismissal ("genealogical charts can't go back more than a few centuries, so why should DNA be able to tell us more")? 

But in traddom, these are not faults, but virtues.  I know that there will be a series of posts after this doubling down on the contempt and ignorance and attacking me for pointing it out, and not with any real arguments but merely by flinging epithets.

(Sooner or later, if traditionalism is going to be a real force, people are going to have to grow up, realize its problems, stop attacking those who point them out, but fix them.)

As to the OP, the data proves this:

1) If Neanderthals were human, then they, too, were descended from Adam; or
2) If Neanderthals were not human, then at some point humans bred with non-human hominids.

There isn't even the faintest hint of a contradiction with faith.

So I'll also say this: a good part of traditionalism is motivated by a hatred of modern man and modernity, rather than a love of what is good.

[Quaremerepulisti]

But if we take this to be a reference to neanderthals, what are we to make of the idea that Noe "was perfect in his generations"? I've always thought of this verse (Gen 6:9) as having a dual meaning: Noe was righteous, unlike others of his time, but his ancestry was also uncorrupted by the intermarriage between the sons of God and the daughters of men. If the latter is true, and we are to understand the Sons of God as a reference to neanderthals, then how could there still be a genetic legacy from neanderthals in modern humans? Wouldn't they all have been wiped out in the Flood?

But what about the other Flood survivors, who could have had neanderthal DNA?

[Optatus]

But if we take this to be a reference to neanderthals, what are we to make of the idea that Noe "was perfect in his generations"? I've always thought of this verse (Gen 6:9) as having a dual meaning: Noe was righteous, unlike others of his time, but his ancestry was also uncorrupted by the intermarriage between the sons of God and the daughters of men. If the latter is true, and we are to understand the Sons of God as a reference to neanderthals, then how could there still be a genetic legacy from neanderthals in modern humans? Wouldn't they all have been wiped out in the Flood?

But what about the other Flood survivors, who could have had neanderthal DNA?

Were there any? I always thought it was just Noe and his family who survived.

Edit: By the way, whatever you think of my choice of words, I'm fairly open to the idea. My question is sincere - if this can be reconciled then I'd like to know about it. Same thing applies if it can't be.