Understanding Pain and Suffering.

[Bernadette]

In the sermon today Fr said St Teresa of Avila had a neurological disorder.  Suffered daily severe nerve pain throughout her whole body. Said doctors called it the worst possible disease.  Amazing all she accomplished.  Have to wonder how much of her strength came from virtue or from mystical graces.

I can tell you from reading her writings that she would attribute all of her success to God's grace, rather than to her own virtue. She made a point of saying that we often think we possess a virtue, only to find that when we're tested we fall; so we shouldn't think that we possess any of them perfectly. She also went through periods of depression and spiritual dryness, lasting anywhere from days to weeks at a time.

What I find incredible is how someone with all her physical diseases and severe daily pain--especially diffuse NERVE pain--and her almost constant state of paralysis in different parts of her body, often involving both legs, managed to found something like 15 monasteries, reform the entire Carmelite order, and become one of the greatest masters of mystical theology.  Oh and she suffered from chronic serious mental illness.  She mustve had daily megadoses of special mystical graces beyond that of sacramental grace.  If not, think what how much more comparatively ordinary sufferers could (or should?) accomplish with God's grace.

Many are called, but few are chosen. She was called specifically for that. We're called to serve God in our own way, which is often hard enough for us. We shouldn't compare our crosses to other people's, since it can lead to discouragement.

[christulsa]

In the sermon today Fr said St Teresa of Avila had a neurological disorder.  Suffered daily severe nerve pain throughout her whole body. Said doctors called it the worst possible disease.  Amazing all she accomplished.  Have to wonder how much of her strength came from virtue or from mystical graces.

I can tell you from reading her writings that she would attribute all of her success to God's grace, rather than to her own virtue. She made a point of saying that we often think we possess a virtue, only to find that when we're tested we fall; so we shouldn't think that we possess any of them perfectly. She also went through periods of depression and spiritual dryness, lasting anywhere from days to weeks at a time.

What I find incredible is how someone with all her physical diseases and severe daily pain--especially diffuse NERVE pain--and her almost constant state of paralysis in different parts of her body, often involving both legs, managed to found something like 15 monasteries, reform the entire Carmelite order, and become one of the greatest masters of mystical theology.  Oh and she suffered from chronic serious mental illness.  She mustve had daily megadoses of special mystical graces beyond that of sacramental grace.  If not, think what how much more comparatively ordinary sufferers could (or should?) accomplish with God's grace.

Many are called, but few are chosen. She was called specifically for that. We're called to serve God in our own way, which is often hard enough for us. We shouldn't compare our crosses to other people's, since it can lead to discouragement.

I understand Bernadette what you're saying but I was comparing mystical graces to sacramental graces. I'd agree looking at the saints' crosses compared to our own can be discouraging for some people.  Yet I personally find it very encouraging to think how the great saints carried their unbelievable crosses, especially when theirs is similar to my own (but much smaller).  ie serious illness

From what you've read about her, was her ability to accomplish all those things in her very sick body from mystical, supernatural gifts compared to the graces of the sacraments?  I'm guessing yes since she was a mystic.  Im reminded of Blessed Mother Mariana of the Our Lady of Equador apparitions.  For a few years I think Our Lord allowed her to literally experience the pains of hell all the while she carried on with Her duties.

[Non Nobis]

[St. Theresa of Avila]

What I find incredible is how someone with all her physical diseases and severe daily pain--especially diffuse NERVE pain--and her almost constant state of paralysis in different parts of her body, often involving both legs, managed to found something like 15 monasteries, reform the entire Carmelite order, and become one of the greatest masters of mystical theology.  Oh and she suffered from chronic serious mental illness.   

What kind of mental illness did she really have?

Doing some googling shows some atheists and other skeptics think her visions and general behavior can be explained as psychotic episodes or hysteria.

Having psychosis means that your reason is impaired and you lose touch with reality, and you can suffer delusions and hallucinations. I have trouble seeing how she could have had true psychosis, even if she had milder forms of mental illness.  She could have had psychosis at some times and still be holy, but I can't see that the Church would have publicly canonized her if that were the case. They would have detected that her visions were at least suspect, and that people were being reasonable in suspecting them. 

[dymphna17]

[St. Theresa of Avila]

What I find incredible is how someone with all her physical diseases and severe daily pain--especially diffuse NERVE pain--and her almost constant state of paralysis in different parts of her body, often involving both legs, managed to found something like 15 monasteries, reform the entire Carmelite order, and become one of the greatest masters of mystical theology.  Oh and she suffered from chronic serious mental illness.   

What kind of mental illness did she really have?

Doing some googling shows some atheists and other skeptics think her visions and general behavior can be explained as psychotic episodes or hysteria.

Having psychosis means that your reason is impaired and you lose touch with reality, and you can suffer delusions and hallucinations. I have trouble seeing how she could have had true psychosis, even if she had milder forms of mental illness.  She could have had psychosis at some times and still be holy, but I can't see that the Church would have publicly canonized her if that were the case. They would have detected that her visions were at least suspect, and that people were being reasonable in suspecting them.

I'd be willing to bet that she was bi-polar.  She could run around establishing convents, constantly pushing, pushing, pushing, to get things done.  This would be the manic phase.  Then she would crash and be despondent for a while.  The depressive phase. 

[Bernadette]

I'd be willing to bet that she was bi-polar.  She could run around establishing convents, constantly pushing, pushing, pushing, to get things done.  This would be the manic phase.  Then she would crash and be despondent for a while.  The depressive phase.

I've thought so, too.

[Bernadette]

From what you've read about her, was her ability to accomplish all those things in her very sick body from mystical, supernatural gifts compared to the graces of the sacraments?  I'm guessing yes since she was a mystic.  Im reminded of Blessed Mother Mariana of the Our Lady of Equador apparitions.  For a few years I think Our Lord allowed her to literally experience the pains of hell all the while she carried on with Her duties.

The thing about St. Teresa is that she wasn't afraid of suffering. She seems to have just accepted all of her suffering in a way that boggles the mind. She encourages her daughters to embrace the cross from the very beginning of their spiritual lives (ie. in mental prayer, etc.) so that they won't be afraid of it or shocked by trials when they do come. I think that being able to do this to the extent that she did is probably pretty rare.

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

I'd be willing to bet that she was bi-polar.  She could run around establishing convents, constantly pushing, pushing, pushing, to get things done.  This would be the manic phase.  Then she would crash and be despondent for a while.  The depressive phase.

I've thought so, too.

Didn't this used to be called manic depressive? Interesting assessment Dymphna. 

St. Joseph cured her of a serious illness and he was her patron saint.  Did she contract or develop other illnesses after that healing?   Oh how she loved him.
Note to self: refresh mind with her hagiography

The Church elevates men and women of this extraordinary caliber precisely for this purpose, so we may learn how they served God, in many cases under extreme circumstances (and with joy no less); thus, provide inspiration, motivation, and for some special souls, imitation.

Chris, I'd think St. Teresa Avila is a chosen patron saint?

[Quaremerepulisti]

The thing about St. Teresa is that she wasn't afraid of suffering. She seems to have just accepted all of her suffering in a way that boggles the mind. She encourages her daughters to embrace the cross from the very beginning of their spiritual lives (ie. in mental prayer, etc.) so that they won't be afraid of it or shocked by trials when they do come. I think that being able to do this to the extent that she did is probably pretty rare.

The natural ability to do this is non-existent.  The "grace builds on nature" dictum is simply a canard, and not what St. Thomas actually said, which is that grace does not destroy nature, but perfects it insofar as it is good.

But all are called to holiness and sanctity and all will receive the grace of not only the ability to suffer with Christ but even a consuming desire to do so, if they ask and hope for it from God.

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

But all are called to holiness and sanctity and all will receive the grace of not only the ability to suffer with Christ but even a consuming desire to do so, if they ask and hope for it from God.

underscore. It's really that simple.

It may appear I've hijacked the thread toward St. Joseph, but he is the patron saint of suffering souls (and happy death).

In imitation of St. Teresa of Avila, here is a prayer invoking St. Joseph as patron:

O blessed Joseph, faithful guardian of my Redeemer, Jesus Christ, protector
of thy chaste spouse, the virgin Mother of God, I choose thee this day to
be my special patron and advocate and I firmly resolve to honor thee all
the days of my life.
Therefore I humbly beseech thee to receive me as thy client, to instruct me in every doubt, to comfort me in every affliction, to obtain for me and for all the knowledge and love of the Heart of Jesus, and finally to defend and protect me at the hour of my death. Amen

I know by experience that the glorious St. Joseph assists us generally in all necessities. I never asked him for anything which he did not obtain for me."

It would seem that God has only granted the other saints power to help us in one kind of necessity; but experience shows that Saint Joseph can help in every kind of need.
-St. Teresa of Avila

There are some saints who have the power of protecting in certain specific circumstances; but Saint Joseph has been granted the power to help us in every kind of need, and to defend all who have recourse to him with pious dispositions.
- St. Bernard

Above all, I most strongly urge you to ask him for three special graces: forgiveness of sins, love of Jesus Christ, and a happy death.
-St. Alphonsus de Liguori

St. Joseph, patron saint of suffering souls, pray for us.

O, Blessed St. Joseph, you give forth your last breath in the loving embrace of Jesus and Mary. When the seal of death shall close my life, come with Jesus and Mary to help me. Obtain for me this solace for that hour; to die with their holy arms around me. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph I commend my soul living and dying into your arms. Amen.

[christulsa]

The thing about St. Teresa is that she wasn't afraid of suffering. She seems to have just accepted all of her suffering in a way that boggles the mind. She encourages her daughters to embrace the cross from the very beginning of their spiritual lives (ie. in mental prayer, etc.) so that they won't be afraid of it or shocked by trials when they do come. I think that being able to do this to the extent that she did is probably pretty rare.

The natural ability to do this is non-existent.  The "grace builds on nature" dictum is simply a canard, and not what St. Thomas actually said, which is that grace does not destroy nature, but perfects it insofar as it is good.

But all are called to holiness and sanctity and all will receive the grace of not only the ability to suffer with Christ but even a consuming desire to do so, if they ask and hope for it from God.

Which is why she must've had preternatural or mystical gifts I imagine.

[Non Nobis]

Couldn't St. Teresa's times of tremendous activity and other times great depression be due to spiritual influence and the devil rather than (even partly) the chemical imbalance of bipolar disorder?  I think that the "dark night of the soul" that St. John of the Cross speaks of was not the result of clinical depression. It was not something that could be helped by drugs available today.  This is what I understand.

Bipolar disorder manic episodes can (in some cases) be accompanied by psychosis, which I think is something that would make the Church suspect visions as questionable.  Mania also can result in activity that is really wild and excessive, even if the person experiencing it thinks it is grand.

I am leery of contributing too much to mental illness when it comes to the lives of the saints, or the life of Christ (some say those possessed by the devil were really just mentally ill). This is not at all to say that the mentally ill cannot be holy, but that spiritual activity (whether God or the devil) should not be reduced to the activity of a diseased mind, which is what too many are tempted to do today.

You can go too far in either direction: saying that the truly mentally ill are really possessed by the devil or having real visions, or saying that  those with the dark night of the soul or real visions are just mentally ill.  It seems the Church is more likely to canonize someone who is mentally sound all of the time, so their life cannot be easily publicly mocked as being reduced to mental illness.

Being very depressed does not always mean clinical depression.  Being extremely active and productive does not always mean mania. I think it is a mistake to make that connection too readily. The extremes that mental illness produces only mimic in a disordered way the extremes that God can produce in a great saint.

[christulsa]

Couldn't St. Teresa's times of tremendous activity and other times great depression be due to spiritual influence and the devil rather than the chemical imbalance of bipolar disorder?  I think that the "dark night of the soul" that St. John of the Cross speaks of was not the result of clinical depression. It was not something that could be helped by drugs available today.  This is what I understand.

Bipolar disorder manic episodes can (in some cases) be accompanied by psychosis, which I think is something that would make the Church suspect visions as questionable.  Mania also can result in activity that is really wild and excessive, even if the person experiencing it thinks it is grand.

I am leery of contributing too much to mental illness when it comes to the lives of the saints, or the life of Christ (some say those possessed by the devil were really just mentally ill). This is not at all to say that the mentally ill cannot be holy, but that spiritual activity (whether God or the devil) should not be reduced to the activity of a diseased mind, which is what too many are tempted to do today.

You can go too far in either direction: saying that the truly mentally ill are really possessed by the devil or having real visions, or saying that  those with the dark night of the soul or real visions are just mentally ill.  It seems the Church is more likely to canonize someone who is mentally sound all of the time, so their life cannot be easily publicly mocked as being reduced to mental illness.

Being very depressed does not always mean clinical depression.  Being extremely active and productive does not always mean mania. I think it is a mistake to make that connection too readily. The extremes that mental illness produces only mimic in a disordered way the extremes that God can produce in a great saint.

Very good points.  I can see the difficulty canonizing someone who was seriously mentally ill, or portraying a canonized saint as being mentally ill.  It would be hard to know what to imitate in their behavior or to know what was supernatural vs delusional.  Which is perhaps why we don't hear of many (or any?) saints whose main cross was mental illness.  Which I think is unfortunate if you think about it.   Serious mentally illness is real.  Some good Catholic people suffer from it.  It could be worse than the worst physical illness.  So enduring that would be even more meritorious and saintly.  But how to verify that especially when externally their sometimes crazy behavior seems sinful.  In today's crazy world though I think it would help a lot of people to know more about those saints that we know did suffer from mental illness.  Would make a good book.  I'll read up more on St Theresa's apparent problem with it and report what I find!

[Carleendiane]

I am no Saint, but am working feverishly to get kitchen done, at least my part, stripping finishing, is that mania?. Soon I am going to crash and go through monthly withdrawal from my pain med. But I know that is not depression, it's chemical though. And a cross. Just kinda relate to the high and low. The low is so low, I can barely get out of bed. I can do nothing for about 3 days, get headaches, stomach aches. Poor St Theresa, if she had these highs and lows, it must have been the devil causing this. I wasn't medicines like me. And if it wasn't mental illness, it would have to be the devil. That's easier for me to believe than mental illness. She was just too functional.

[christulsa]

I am no Saint, but am working feverishly to get kitchen done, at least my part, stripping finishing, is that mania?. Soon I am going to crash and go through monthly withdrawal from my pain med. But I know that is not depression, it's chemical though. And a cross. Just kinda relate to the high and low. The low is so low, I can barely get out of bed. I can do nothing for about 3 days, get headaches, stomach aches. Poor St Theresa, if she had these highs and lows, it must have been the devil causing this. I wasn't medicines like me. And if it wasn't mental illness, it would have to be the devil. That's easier for me to believe than mental illness. She was just too functional.

Her chronic pain could have made her chemically depressed.  She had nerve pain through her whole body which I think would make her disabled.  But I've never heard of anyone with such serious chronic pain and illness being able to accomplish what she did.  At least until yesterday when I read more about her.  Then again there could be many people all around us with terrible invisible pain and illness and we have no idea about it because they are still functional. Thats entered my mind lately when in public.  You usually can't tell if/when someone in the checkout lane is in pain unless they give signs they are.  Carleen with your chronic pain and assortment of illnesses dont you deal with some level of chemical anxiety and depression?  Though I dont wish that on anyone.  I've dealt with some depression before, but nothing close to what I feel right now due to the pain.  Pain--> anxiety --> mental fatigue --> poor sleep --> physical fatigue --> decreased activity --> too much time to think about the pain --> depression.  And then your stuck in a cycle of physical and emotional pain.  May be the answer is constant activity and that's how St Theresa handled her cross.  Padre Pio himself kept very busy though it was mostly sitting in the confessional.

[Bernadette]

I thought at least some of the nerve pain went away after St. Joseph cured her paralysis? Though I know she suffered from multiple ailments all her life. Either way, she knew all kinds of suffering: physical, mental/emotional, and temptations from the devil. Heck, for a long time she was terrified that her mystical experiences themselves came from the devil! She was the first to admit that despite having been given "greater courage than is usually given to women," there were times when she felt she couldn't have mustered the courage to squash an ant. So she was definitely human as far as such weakness goes. Hence her attributing all of her success to God's grace, rather than anything special within herself. She was well aware of the graces that God gave her, and lamented that she made such a poor repayment for them.

Couldn't St. Teresa's times of tremendous activity and other times great depression be due to spiritual influence and the devil rather than (even partly) the chemical imbalance of bipolar disorder?

Why not both? It's not like mental disorders didn't exist back then.  And I wouldn't put it past the devil to use mental disorders to tempt and torment people, just like he probably uses physical illness.