Understanding Pain and Suffering.

Started by christulsa, July 14, 2017, 08:03:02 PM

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christulsa

Pain and suffering are a mystery.  I can't imagine how non-Catholics deal with it.  Protestantism fundamentally offers no purpose for it.  Materialism sees no "quality of life" for the severly disabled or those in chronic, severe pain.

But thank God for the example of Our Lord's Passion, and victim souls like St. Padre Pio who suffered horrible pain but were at peace and full of confidence in God.

In my life I've only understood in the abstract that some people have to deal with indescribable pain.  I'm trying to better understand it, coming to terms with the raw fact of life--nearly all of us will either suffer horribly in this life or in purgatory.  And if we really understood purgatory, we'd gladly welcome the worst suffering this side of the grave.

There are not a small # here on SD who have or are going through long, intense periods of pain and discomfort.

Lately I've been wondering about pain and suffering. Can someone in physical misery be simultaneously happy? How does that work metaphysically?  Is it possible to lose culpability for your actions, like having thoughts of despair, when in chronic, serious pain?  Is there anyway to tell how much we deserve our suffering vs. not deserving it?  How much of pain is "in our heads?"  What exactly is "pain" and "suffering" in the first place!?

Feel free to answer, share your own experience or insights, things youve learned from the lives of the saints.

Jacob

I think you would have to be a very special person to be happy while also experiencing intense pain.

Having experienced pain that I would rate as 10 on a "0 to 10" scale, pain where I just lashed around, throwing my arms around, agonized, sat back, sat up, sat back again, there isn't much room for happy or sad or even despair, there is just The Pain.

The real enemy is lingering on and on.  The longer my hospital stay is, the more I get depressed.
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
--Neal Stephenson

Chestertonian

wish i had better advice..

I think the whole "joy within the suffering" thing is one of the hardest things about sufferingwithin the context of a catholic life.  It seems,from readng the life of the saints, that the chruch hods us up to this standard of not just having to suffer, but also suffer joyfully.  St. Francis had his eyes burned out with no anesthesia and he sang hymns the whole time.  it almost reminds me of the Scientologists who force their women to have these unmedicated "natural" births where she isnt allowed to make a sound, it has to be done in complete silence.  The Catholic ideal is suffering in complete silence, without complaining, without venting, embracing it as God's will for you and in fact thanking God for the pain.  so these days being Catholic has just felt like a huge burden on my soul only bringing crushing constant guilt, and no joy.

from reading books like "Howto avoid purgatory"andsome other things gearedtoward people going through suffering it does seem that there is a right way to suffer, and a wrong way to suffer.  I used to have a hard time imagining how people outside the faith could suffer badly and find any meaning in their suffering, however, one thing that is tempting is that when secular people suffer, I don't know as if they worry about whether they are suffering "the right way."  When your pain is a 10 and you lose all sense of composure and melt down, there isn't any guilt.  Whereas as a catholic I have a lot of worry that I am Doing It All Wrong and suffering "the wrong way" because when my pain level is a 10, I"m not able to be "joyful" or think about much of anything other than how I just want it to end

i have a hardtime being joyful about much of anything these days.... when youre depressed it's very difficult to be happy, even when good things happen.  last summer around june iwas in the hospital for a long long stay,got very depressed would have done anything to go outside with my family and feel the sun on my face.  this past june,was out on the waterfront looking at the manhattan skyline,andthe fluffy clouds,ships going by...perfect 70 degree day but nope, still depressed...  even good things dont reallygive me joy anymore these days. 

Last time I went outside it was the 4th of july.  We went up onto the roof to watch the fireworks and my wife put these earmuffs on the baby they make for fireworks and concerts and stuff.  that sort of thing would normally be very enjoyable but all i couldthink about was the fact that one ofthese days, I'm going to die and how horrible Purgatory is going to be and about how things are onlygoing to get worse.  how can i be happy for even a moment here when God is just going to burninate me once I die.  So what worries me is if I'm suffering the wrwong way, it does nothing to reduce the pain in purgatory but instead makes it significantly worse
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Carleendiane

Dear Chris, pain and suffering are inseperable. Where there is pain there is suffering, unless you are a saint, and even then.....saints speak of suffering, too.There is no sin in suffering right along with our pain. They know that suffering well here means less suffering in purgatory. We know this too, and without a doubt, this provides a degree of consolation.Like paying a debt down. That feels good, even knowing there is more debt still to be paid.

Yes, pain can be in your head, but this can be nerves sending pain signals where there is no physical malady. Pain and suffering certainly can cause despair, but our frame of mind may reduce our culpability. Horrible, wrenching, debilitating, as in I'm curled in a ball, pain does cause serious problems with the thought processes. You've heard it said by a parent, husband, wife...."Please, forgive him. He is out of his mind with pain." I would guess our Sweet Mother in Heaven would say the same, on our behalf, to her Son, as we rant and mumble words of despair.The stress caused by this pain can actually give false readings in our blood work. It's not hard to believe our thought processes are also affected.

As to being happy and yet in agony? Well, most pain ebbs and flows. In moments of clarity, yes, we can still experience joy and satisfaction as we offer up our pain. I view it like Anne Catherine Emmerich. While we have taken to our beds because of our malady, (assuming clarity of thought) we, because of our understanding of our Faith, know we can pay down our debts due to our sins, and make reparation for the state of affairs in our church and in our world. As we lay in our beds we are simultaneously working in the vineyard, for our Divine Master. God accepts these offerings and this brings us joy and satisfaction. Our spirits rise and we are quietly happy. It's pretty much a hidden joy, because we are tired and weak.and yes, suffering.

So, yes, it is possible to have happy suffering. Not being a saint, for me, this can be fleeting, but it is a sweet, satisfying state. So we, with joy, make thanksgiving. Intellectually we know, by God's grace, we have put our pain to work for ourself and for others.

To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.

christulsa

Quote from: Jacob on July 14, 2017, 08:49:06 PM
I think you would have to be a very special person to be happy while also experiencing intense pain.

Having experienced pain that I would rate as 10 on a "0 to 10" scale, pain where I just lashed around, throwing my arms around, agonized, sat back, sat up, sat back again, there isn't much room for happy or sad or even despair, there is just The Pain.

The real enemy is lingering on and on.  The longer my hospital stay is, the more I get depressed.

Are you in the hospital Jacob? 

Carleendiane

Quote from: Chestertonian on July 14, 2017, 09:48:57 PM
wish i had better advice..

I think the whole "joy within the suffering" thing is one of the hardest things about sufferingwithin the context of a catholic life.  It seems,from readng the life of the saints, that the chruch hods us up to this standard of not just having to suffer, but also suffer joyfully.  St. Francis had his eyes burned out with no anesthesia and he sang hymns the whole time.  it almost reminds me of the Scientologists who force their women to have these unmedicated "natural" births where she isnt allowed to make a sound, it has to be done in complete silence.  The Catholic ideal is suffering in complete silence, without complaining, without venting, embracing it as God's will for you and in fact thanking God for the pain.  so these days being Catholic has just felt like a huge burden on my soul only bringing crushing constant guilt, and no joy.

from reading books like "Howto avoid purgatory"andsome other things gearedtoward people going through suffering it does seem that there is a right way to suffer, and a wrong way to suffer.  I used to have a hard time imagining how people outside the faith could suffer badly and find any meaning in their suffering, however, one thing that is tempting is that when secular people suffer, I don't know as if they worry about whether they are suffering "the right way."  When your pain is a 10 and you lose all sense of composure and melt down, there isn't any guilt.  Whereas as a catholic I have a lot of worry that I am Doing It All Wrong and suffering "the wrong way" because when my pain level is a 10, I"m not able to be "joyful" or think about much of anything other than how I just want it to end

i have a hardtime being joyful about much of anything these days.... when youre depressed it's very difficult to be happy, even when good things happen.  last summer around june iwas in the hospital for a long long stay,got very depressed would have done anything to go outside with my family and feel the sun on my face.  this past june,was out on the waterfront looking at the manhattan skyline,andthe fluffy clouds,ships going by...perfect 70 degree day but nope, still depressed...  even good things dont reallygive me joy anymore these days. 

Last time I went outside it was the 4th of july.  We went up onto the roof to watch the fireworks and my wife put these earmuffs on the baby they make for fireworks and concerts and stuff.  that sort of thing would normally be very enjoyable but all i couldthink about was the fact that one ofthese days, I'm going to die and how horrible Purgatory is going to be and about how things are onlygoing to get worse.  how can i be happy for even a moment here when God is just going to burninate me once I die.  So what worries me is if I'm suffering the wrwong way, it does nothing to reduce the pain in purgatory but instead makes it significantly worse

Ches, I wish I would have read your post before I  replied to Chris. Your suffering is outside my scope of experience, which, naturally is limited to me. I think the only way I could actually suffer wrong, would be to hate God for allowing it. It takes, not talking about me here, heroic effort to suffer as you do and still be husband and dad, yes, in your limited way, but to be that and still be a part of their lives, plus iworry about your spiritual state.The dark cloud you fight every single day would, by itself, require heroic effort which will be rewarded in the next life. I know, completely insufficient to bring any kind of solace to you, but just know that I wish I could help to make a difference even for a day, or a moment.

:pray1: :pray2: :pray3:.
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.

christulsa

Ches, I'll keep saying it.  When you're time comes I think you'll probably go straight to the pearly gates.   :)

With your kind of pain, you probably are forced to rise above your emotions and ordinary ideas of happiness.  There's joy in contemplating and offering it up.
I mean your forced to.  What other choice is there?  For me I can thankfully say I've tasted that higher joy, realizing for the first time first hand what that dimension is like.  Its hard to explain.  But it's like the more the pain, the more you're forced to rise above it into your soul.  Thinking about heaven and the saints.  I've studied Catholic philosophical psycholoby before about the soul.  It would seem impossible to be physically and psychologically in misery but still happy.  But perhaps in the soul there are higher emotions that can sustain us.

PerEvangelicaDicta

I'm not even close to holy enough or smart enough to offer anything to you dear forum family members carrying such heavy crosses except pleading prayers for God to continue to assist you, and to ease your burden if it be His Will.
They shall not be confounded in the evil time; and in the days of famine they shall be filled
Psalms 36:19

JubilateDeo

Catholics never have to suffer alone.  Jesus suffers with us.  We don't believe in a detached, uncaring God who is removed from human suffering.

Non Nobis

#9
Quote from: Chestertonian on July 14, 2017, 09:48:57 PM

... It seems,from readng the life of the saints, that the chruch hods us up to this standard of not just having to suffer, but also suffer joyfully.  St. Francis had his eyes burned out with no anesthesia and he sang hymns the whole time. ...The Catholic ideal is suffering in complete silence, without complaining, without venting, embracing it as God's will for you and in fact thanking God for the pain.  so these days being Catholic has just felt like a huge burden on my soul only bringing crushing constant guilt, and no joy.

from reading books like "Howto avoid purgatory"andsome other things gearedtoward people going through suffering it does seem that there is a right way to suffer, and a wrong way to suffer.  I used to have a hard time imagining how people outside the faith could suffer badly and find any meaning in their suffering, however, one thing that is tempting is that when secular people suffer, I don't know as if they worry about whether they are suffering "the right way."  When your pain is a 10 and you lose all sense of composure and melt down, there isn't any guilt.  Whereas as a catholic I have a lot of worry that I am Doing It All Wrong and suffering "the wrong way" because when my pain level is a 10, I"m not able to be "joyful" or think about much of anything other than how I just want it to end
...
... the fact that one ofthese days, I'm going to die and how horrible Purgatory is going to be and about how things are onlygoing to get worse.  how can i be happy for even a moment here when God is just going to burninate me once I die.  So what worries me is if I'm suffering the wrwong way, it does nothing to reduce the pain in purgatory but instead makes it significantly worse

You have some just plain wrong ideas that seem to have come from past reading you have done combined with confusion due to your physical and mental suffering.  I pray God will enlighten your intellect so you see these things more clearly.

There is "perfect suffering" and "ideal suffering" that Catholic books recommend and rare saints show us,  but that does not mean that complaining and being depressed reduces the value of suffering to nothing: especially when the suffering is so great. It just doesn't, Chestertonian, we can all see this, and I wish you could too.

... and Purgatory is a place of suffering but also complete peace and hope.  You ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT experience it in the way you are thinking.  This has been written about much in other threads; I pray you may come to see this too. It is a matter of faith, or clear reasoning from faith.

These false ideas multiply your sufferings so needlessly.

:pray3: :pray3: :pray3:

[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Kaesekopf

Ches:  Regarding the sections N.N. just quoted about suffering in silence - you're dead wrong (I mean this in a loving way!).

Look first to Our Lord.  What did He say on the cross?  "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

And yea, He may have been quoting a Psalm, but even then, that Psalm is prayed weekly in the Office, the prayer of the Church.  And it's part of Scripture, meaning it's important. 

Or, look to the other Psalms...
Psalm 129:
1From the depths of my despair I call to you, Lord.
2Hear my cry, O Lord;
listen to my call for help!

All of Psalm 21:
http://drbo.org/chapter/21021.htm

Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Chestertonian

as for whether we deserve our suffering or not, i think that is above all of our pay grades.  on one hand,ihave a genetic disease... what did I do to 'deserve' a genetic disease?  i hadnt even committed actual sin yet.  But that doesnt stop me from feeling guilt for it especiallysince it means I cant work. 

Meanwhile, God allows Nazis to go unpunished in remote Argentinian villages, sipping yerba mate and doing crossword puzzles.  The women on the View dont seem to be suffering badly.  He allows abortionists and Planned Parenthood CEO's to live lives of luxury and prosperity despite having blood on their hands.  God has His reasons I guess, but I sure as heck don't know what they are.  I havemoments where I wonder whatI did to deserve this.  That's a question I'll never be able to answer this side of eternity.  the default way of looking at these things (at least in my own head) is seeing it as all my fault, becuase the consequences for not repenting forsomething as your fault are so grave, and so horrible that it doesnt make sense to believe that something wasnt your fault.so i tend to err on the side of everything that happens to me being my fault

ihave been told at times that i am not culpableforthings...from priest.  I dont know why but it is still hard not to feel very guilty about thesethings.  even if i wasnt/am not culpable...still seems like i did something wrong? 
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Carleendiane

You did nothing Ches. Genetic is genetic. Guilt is not associated with illness unless its throwing up from drinking or overeating. It seems no answers your fellow posters give satisfy in anyway your "guilt". Guilt comes in being a party to bad. You had no part in this. Your genes dictated your condition.  :grouphug:
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.

JubilateDeo

Quote from: Chestertonian on July 15, 2017, 06:03:41 AM
as for whether we deserve our suffering or not, i think that is above all of our pay grades.  on one hand,ihave a genetic disease... what did I do to 'deserve' a genetic disease?  i hadnt even committed actual sin yet.  But that doesnt stop me from feeling guilt for it especiallysince it means I cant work. 

Meanwhile, God allows Nazis to go unpunished in remote Argentinian villages, sipping yerba mate and doing crossword puzzles.  The women on the View dont seem to be suffering badly.  He allows abortionists and Planned Parenthood CEO's to live lives of luxury and prosperity despite having blood on their hands.  God has His reasons I guess, but I sure as heck don't know what they are.  I havemoments where I wonder whatI did to deserve this.  That's a question I'll never be able to answer this side of eternity.  the default way of looking at these things (at least in my own head) is seeing it as all my fault, becuase the consequences for not repenting forsomething as your fault are so grave, and so horrible that it doesnt make sense to believe that something wasnt your fault.so i tend to err on the side of everything that happens to me being my fault

ihave been told at times that i am not culpableforthings...from priest.  I dont know why but it is still hard not to feel very guilty about thesethings.  even if i wasnt/am not culpable...still seems like i did something wrong?

Would you tell someone else with a genetic disorder that it was their fault?  Of course you wouldn't.  Try having the same amount of compassion for yourself that you'd have towards anyone else. 

Jacob

Quote from: christulsa on July 14, 2017, 10:05:06 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 14, 2017, 08:49:06 PM
The real enemy is lingering on and on.  The longer my hospital stay is, the more I get depressed.

Are you in the hospital Jacob?

Not at present, thankfully.
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
--Neal Stephenson